Harang For Reyes?
john smith
Yes.....
I would do this deal simply to dump salary and get Ryes as SS and
leadoff hitter. He is coming off an injury that kept him out most of the
season so his value has dropped a little....
Fun just to throw deals like this out there. Reyes is cheap he signed
for peanuts over the next 3 years because of some idiot agent...
Mets need pitching, Reds need everything. Having 2 head cases up the
middle is something you would have to deal with....
Would you do this deal??? Both players are coming off "injuries"....
HTP
I believe you've posted this topic before.
Reyes is not cheap and he's not locked up for 3 years. He gets 9 mil
in 2010, with an 11 mil club option for 2011 with a 500k buyout. Thats
9.5 mil for 1 year or 20 mil for 2 years. Harang is garaunteed 14.5
mil for 1 year or about 25.5 mil for 2 years. So we save 5.5 mil this
year, which is something.
Reyes can hit leadoff and play ss but he's not overwhelming at
either. Still, he's far better than our current choices. I dont know
about him being a "headcase". I'm not even sure what that is. Reyes
had 2 leg injuries last season which cant be good for a guy who's game
is based on speed. I dont know why you have the word injuries in
quotations. Do you think Reyes and Harang arent really injured. Yeah,
i know, Harang had the appendix thing.
Currently i have doubts that the Reds will be able to replace Harangs
200 innings. They have worries enough replacing Volquez. I dont even
know that the Reds would even try to spend the 5.5 on a replacement. I
have no idea what market rate is on 200 innings at league average.
I would like to make the deal but only if i could see a clear way to
replace Harang. I realize you cant stand "bang bang" and would like to
see him exit, but i dont want to go back to the days of sifting
through the scrap heap for the likes of the Joey Hamilton and Todd Van
Poppels of the world. Pitching comes first.
I have no idea why the Mets would make this trade. They can simply
just go out and sign inning-eaters. But then, I wouldnt put it past
Minaya.
David Short
> I have no idea why the Mets would make this trade.
And from the other side...why trade with the mets? They got nothing I want
unless they want to trade that fellow over at third and they would be insane
to do that. The only reason to want to see this as a reds fan is if you
think Harang isn't going to have any value at all. The reds wouldn't be able
to spend the money on the free agent market. They would just pocket it.
dfs
john smith
into the equation. Him being a "local" boy, former Toms River, NJ little
league World Series player.
I like throwing a trade out there because it's the only thing a Reds fan
has the pleasure of doing. Getting rid of Harang has always been a
priority with me. I am of firm belief his best years are behind him.....
I really believe come the start of the Reds 2010 season two of the
following three pitchers, Harang, Arroyo and Cordero will be history!
JustTom
wrote:
>
>
> Reyes can hit leadoff and play ss but he's not overwhelming at
>either. Still, he's far better than our current choices. I dont know
>about him being a "headcase". I'm not even sure what that is. Reyes
>had 2 leg injuries last season which cant be good for a guy who's game
>is based on speed. I dont know why you have the word injuries in
>quotations. Do you think Reyes and Harang arent really injured. Yeah,
>i know, Harang had the appendix thing.
>
The doctor that was treating him for those injuries was also just
arrested in connection with performance enhancers.
And he can't pitch...
HTP
> To make the deal more realistic, the Reds would have to add Todd Frazier
> into the equation. Him being a "local" boy, former Toms River, NJ little
> league World Series player.
Throw in Frazier? then the deals off.
>
> I like throwing a trade out there because it's the only thing a Reds fan
> has the pleasure of doing. Getting rid of Harang has always been a
> priority with me. I am of firm belief his best years are behind him.....
And this is part of the problem - the urge to make moves to "get rid
of" somebody. The organization did this with Encarnacion and its
coming back to bite them. We have little payroll flexibility because
of Rolens contract and we may have to move a pitcher to compensate.
Oh, and we gave up 2 arms that were close to contributing at the major
league level.
>
> I really believe come the start of the Reds 2010 season two of the
> following three pitchers, Harang, Arroyo and Cordero will be history!
I dont see that happening.
hooter guy
John Kasupski
>Getting rid of Harang has always been a
>priority with me. I am of firm belief his best years are behind him.....
Just for grins and giggles, let's compare two actual MLB pitchers. We'll call
them Player X and Player Y. They're both starting pitchers. No scrolling down to
the end to find out who they are - play fair!
Player X: 6'6", 205 lbs, born in October 1978
Player Y: 6'7", 240 lbs, born in May 1978
Player X: 1.26 WHIP, 8.8 H/9, 2.6 BB/9, 7.6 K/9
Player Y: 1.28 WHIP, 9.3 H/9, 2.2 BB/9, 7.8 K/9
Player X: 91.6 MPH fastball thrown 58.6% of the time
Player Y: 90.4 MPH fastball thrown 68.1% of the time
Player X: Slider (13.3%), Curve (24.7%), Change (3.3%)
Player Y: Slider (21%), Curve (6.5%), Change (4.2%)
Player X: Gets swings on 25.5% of pitches outside the zone
Player Y: Gets swings on 24% of pitches outside the zone
Player X: $16.5 million salary in 2010
Player Y: $12.5 million salary in 2010
I'll give you one more bit of information. Player X is under contract for five
years, $85 million while Player Y is under contract for two years, $26 million.
So we have two big, durable, above-average pitchers whose career numbers are
pretty One is $4 million more expensive and is five months older. Now, let's
play the game...you're Walt Jocketty. Would you want either or both of these
guys in the Reds' rotation? If you already had them, would you keep them?
You decide...
(Plays the Jeopardy theme song)
Okay, time's up.
Player X is the guy that the Boston Red Sox, run by a GM who's touted by some as
a baseball genius (Theo Epstein), just signed to a five-year, $85 million free
agent contract - John Lackey. No way the Reds are going to get a guy who's even
close to that...right?
Wrong! Player Y is already in the Reds' rotation - Aaron Harang.
JK
http://fonzieforever.blogspot.com/2009/12/outside-box-part-4-john-lackey-still.html
The above URL is where the stats came from.
David Short
snip
>
> Okay, time's up.
>
> Player X is the guy that the Boston Red Sox, run by a GM who's touted by some as
> a baseball genius (Theo Epstein), just signed to a five-year, $85 million free
> agent contract - John Lackey. No way the Reds are going to get a guy who's even
> close to that...right?
>
> Wrong! Player Y is already in the Reds' rotation - Aaron Harang.
>
> JK
>
dfs
Will Vaughan
"David Short" <David.n...@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
news:hi070m$td5$1...@posting.glorb.com...
Just for the record - if the Reds trade Harang, its a sign they've already
given up on this season - and the fans should too.
john smith
question to the answer: The pitcher you would want on your team from
this day forward, Harang or Lackey..........?
All 30 put down, who is Lackey? Just a reality that even Walt Jocketty
knows. I predict Harang will never ever ever again smell 10 wins as a
major league pitcher. On the other hand it's a safe bet Lackey will
reach 20 a few times in the future years....
Apples and oranges on these two guys at this point in their careers.
Lackey has so much more upside than Harang it is ridiculous...
Poor Harang, if his team only scored him runs he would be on his way to
the Hall Of Fame....
Bob Braun
"john smith" <eddy...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:28818-4B43...@baytvnwsxa002.msntv.msn.com...
John, you let your disdain for the guy cloud your judgment. Hell, you
posted the other day that you would rather gamble on an injury project as
opposed to having Harang.
That's okay....but state the REAL reason. You don't care for Harang. I've
done that. I hate Derek Anderson's guts (Browns QB). Compared to Anderson,
I love Danny Graves! So people here can tell you EXACTLY what I think of
DA. I think DA is the perfect nick for him...............(D)umb (A)ss!
Forget that the media was constantly selling Harang as an Ace. We
all.....well most of us knew that was bullshit. But compared to what you
can get for like money, you aren't going to duplicate him. From the sound
of it, you may get your wish. There is a lot of talk surrounding him.
Regardless, it's is fun to talk baseball again. I have to decide which team
to follow (along with the Reds). The Indians have dumped so much talent,
it's a sin. Two Indian, Cy Young winners face off in game one of the World
Series. What a shame.
David Short
> The theme song ends and all 30 major-league GMS write down their
> question to the answer: The pitcher you would want on your team from
> this day forward, Harang or Lackey..........?
>
> All 30 put down, who is Lackey? Just a reality that even Walt Jocketty
> knows.
So you're suggesting the herd instinct of GM's is a good thing?
> I predict Harang will never ever ever again smell 10 wins as a
> major league pitcher.
Noted
> On the other hand it's a safe bet Lackey will
> reach 20 a few times in the future years....
>
> Apples and oranges on these two guys at this point in their careers.
> Lackey has so much more upside than Harang it is ridiculous...
I'll start posting the answers to last year's questions in a bit. It's
humbling when you start looking back at things you were sure of and how
quickly they change.
dfs
HTP
There are at least 2 logical fallacies in your post.
> The theme song ends and all 30 major-league GMS write down their
> question to the answer: The pitcher you would want on your team from
> this day forward, Harang or Lackey..........?
For one, youre essentially implying that:
A is valuable
A is better than B
therefore B is not valuable
I'll bet that every GM would also prefer to have Tim Lincecum over
John Lackey. Should Epstein immediately begin figuring out a way to
get rid of Lackey?
John, would you yourself prefer to possess 9 million dollars or 10
million dollars? Would you turn your nose up at 9 million if that was
the best you could get?
The real questions with Harang are:
1) Is a healthy Harang more valuable than Maloney/Wood/whomever &
whatever you can get for 14 million (assuming its actually
redirected)?
2) Will Harang be healthy?
In my opinion, the answer to both questions is "yes" or at the least
"probably".
>
> All 30 put down, who is Lackey? Just a reality that even Walt Jocketty
> knows. I predict Harang will never ever ever again smell 10 wins as a
> major league pitcher. On the other hand it's a safe bet Lackey will
> reach 20 a few times in the future years....
I'd take you up on either bet.
I also think its infinitely more likely that Harang wins 10 in a
season before Lackey wins 20. It isnt a safe bet that any pitcher will
ever see a 20-win season.
>
> Apples and oranges on these two guys at this point in their careers.
> Lackey has so much more upside than Harang it is ridiculous...
I think it likely that he has more, but I dont see it as a ridiculous
difference. Lackey should put up better records for the simple fact
that he plays for the Red Sox. I really think that Harang could hang
around and be effective up to the age of 40. He's a big strong guy and
there are no real sign that his body is breaking down yet.
>
> Poor Harang, if his team only scored him runs he would be on his way to
> the Hall Of Fame....
And theres your run-of-the-mill strawman argument.
It would be interesting to see your thoughts had Harang spent his
career playing for the Angels and Lackey had spent his for the Reds.
The organizations are almost opposites. You dont think that trading
places would have a profound effect on the fortunes of each pitcher?
HTP
wrote:
I thought you'd already posted most the answers.
john smith
Go Cowboys..............
John Kasupski
>it's a sin. Two Indian, Cy Young winners face off in game one of the World
>Series. What a shame.
Two words: salary cap.
JK
John Kasupski
>On The Browns, didn't Mangini rip off 5 in a row?
The Browns started 1-11, then won their last four to totally destroy their
position in next year's draft.
The sad part is that that's their longest winning streak since 1994 when Bill
Belichick was still in town.
Next up - Mangini gets fired by Mike Holmgren, becoming the first coach to get
fired in consecutive full seasons by two different teams since Ray Rhodes got
canned by the Eagles and Packers in 1998 and 1999.
I just hope the Bills don't hire him.
JK
HTP
wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 23:14:24 -0500, "Bob Braun" <oxin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >it's a sin. Two Indian, Cy Young winners face off in game one of the World
> >Series. What a shame.
>
> Two words: salary cap.
>
Lets hear a number
John Kasupski
I'll let the lawyers argue about the specifics. I just want to see baseball
level the financial playing field so that the majority of major league
franchises aren't just farm clubs for the big-market teams.
JK
Bob Braun
> On The Browns, didn't Mangini rip off 5 in a row?
>
> Go Cowboys..............
4.............but you are what your final record it.
In Holmgren, I trust. If he thinks Mangini deserves another year, so be it.
Bob Braun
"John Kasupski" <w2...@spamfilter.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:b8n9k5hka3p6196i0...@4ax.com...
Selig and his cronies still like to pretend that there is no problem. Yet
the gap widens every year.
I'm not hanging the Reds problems solely on the 'Poor Little Small Market
Team' argument. The lousy decision making, compounded annually, is well
documented.