Sox at White House
Srgnt Billko
years the Sox couldn't win cause they didn't have any black stars. All the
big name black stars wanted to play for the Sox and the Sox wouldn't hire
any of them. So it wasn't the "curse" it was the "white Irish Mafia's"
unwillingness to hire blacks that kept them from winning.
Whata crock.
Todd
hmmm who was black on the Red Sox last year? Dave Roberts is half
black. Pokey's black. I think that's the list right there.
My point is just rejecting this guy's point. I mean if his point were
true then the Red Sox should have won it all when Mo Vaughn and Ellis
Burks were faces of the franchise.
To me race has no bearing on winning. However no race should be
rejected because if it is then you are limiting your talent pool. I'm
not old enough to know how long it took for Boston to have non-white
ballplayers. They've had them my whole life.
--
T$
Joe
Since when is Tom Yawkey part of the "White-Irish Mafia"? He was Southern
Redneck.
Was this clown trying to blame 86 year of misery on Whitey Bulger?
"Todd" <tca...@deletencia.net> wrote in message
news:cWpVd.4211$h06.6...@monger.newsread.com...
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
> Srgnt Billko wrote:
> > MSNBC - Don Dewey: Black players are superior ball players and for
30 or 40
> > years the Sox couldn't win cause they didn't have any black stars.
All the
> > big name black stars wanted to play for the Sox and the Sox
wouldn't hire
> > any of them. So it wasn't the "curse" it was the "white Irish
Mafia's"
> > unwillingness to hire blacks that kept them from winning.
> >
> > Whata crock.
> >
> >
>
> hmmm who was black on the Red Sox last year? Dave Roberts is half
> black. Pokey's black. I think that's the list right there.
I think you have just proven that you belong to that group of
empty-headed, lame-brained, half-assed cretins who subscribe to the
theory that if Spanish is one's native language they can't possibly be
black. That is the one and only reason for omitting Pedro Martinez,
Manny Ramirez and of course the very fair skinned David Ortiz from your
pathetic list. I can readily forgive you for excluding Bobby Jones, but
not the others. I'll let you slide for Pedro Astacio, but I will
excoriate you for Pedro Martinez. You didn't have to mention Anastacio
Martinez, but you are not allowed to forget David Ortiz. Let Sandy
Martinez slide, but not Manny Ramirez. Perhaps Cesar Crespo deserved an
annoyed mention as well.
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
Also, Ricky Gutierrez, thinks you have shown an amazing lack of
cognotive processes.
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
in your beer.
Briscobar
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister <gn...@yahoo.com> rambled:
>
> I think you have just proven that you belong to that group of
> empty-headed, lame-brained, half-assed cretins who subscribe to the
> theory that if Spanish is one's native language they can't possibly be
> black. That is the one and only reason for omitting Pedro Martinez,
> Manny Ramirez and of course the very fair skinned David Ortiz from
> your pathetic list. I can readily forgive you for excluding Bobby
> Jones, but not the others. I'll let you slide for Pedro Astacio, but
> I will excoriate you for Pedro Martinez. You didn't have to mention
> Anastacio Martinez, but you are not allowed to forget David Ortiz.
> Let Sandy Martinez slide, but not Manny Ramirez. Perhaps Cesar Crespo
> deserved an annoyed mention as well.
I think I have to agree with Gnork. Whether the PC term for "black" is
"black" or "African American", the fact remains that many of the Latin
players (and indeed not just baseball players) are the same color as the
people we refer to as "black" or "African American". So, while they may not
be African (or American), many of them are the same color. Which, IMO,
doesn't matter a bit, but since it was brought up...
--
KB
Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
Smacdo (previously Smacdo3347)
news:1109798856....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> cognotive
???
--
"This morning...there's a calm I can't explain" - John Mayer
Thank you 2004 Red Sox
*PLONK*
-YF4E Feb. 25 2005 4:12PM
I have been plonked by a troll...
Todd
I was only counting African Americans. I guess the context of the
original quote is generalizing skin tone, and not where they are from.
The point of my post was to say that the original quote was racist in
itself. It's not fair to say "you didnt win because you had no black
players, white players, latino players, chinese players, dark players,
light players etc." The point I was MAKING was the Red Sox last year
had an awesome combination of ballplayers from all sorts of different
nationalities, and that is the key. I was trying to take the focus off
of one type of person, and put it on "who are the 25 best ball players
to go out and win" PERIOD.
I admit I took the quote as wrong and thought African American when I
thought black. But I'm pretty discouraged that you didn't see that I
was trying to argue for an anti-racist point.
--
T$
mitchel...@inioisipia.nmu.invalid
: I think I have to agree with Gnork. Whether the PC term for "black" is
: "black" or "African American", the fact remains that many of the Latin
: players (and indeed not just baseball players) are the same color as the
: people we refer to as "black" or "African American". So, while they may not
: be African (or American), many of them are the same color. Which, IMO,
: doesn't matter a bit, but since it was brought up...
i think the point is that yawkey probably wouldn't have hired them.
--
m i t c h e l l a s t e r http:// / /
"porn DVD's commentary track just more moaning" - the onion
mitchel...@inioisipia.nmu.invalid
: I admit I took the quote as wrong and thought African American when I
: thought black. But I'm pretty discouraged that you didn't see that I
: was trying to argue for an anti-racist point.
keep in mind this is gnork you're talking to. i'm pretty sure he's just
excoriating you for the technical error.
Gary
>My point is just rejecting this guy's point. I mean if his point were
>true then the Red Sox should have won it all when Mo Vaughn and Ellis
>Burks were faces of the franchise.
>
>To me race has no bearing on winning. However no race should be
>rejected because if it is then you are limiting your talent pool. I'm
>not old enough to know how long it took for Boston to have non-white
>ballplayers. They've had them my whole life.
Race does have a bearing on winning when a team's ownership decides to
omit players of quality because of their color.
You may not have been alive at the time, but the Sox were the last
team to have black players on their team. Unfortunately, in years
previous to that time, they had chances to sign great players whose
only fault was the color of their skin.
If the above wasn't true, the Sox might have very well won the World
Series before last year.
Gary
Srgnt Billko
"Gary" <golfe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ffhc211ncqq1h0hfn...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:07:20 GMT, Todd <tca...@deletencia.net> wrote:
>
> >My point is just rejecting this guy's point. I mean if his point were
> >true then the Red Sox should have won it all when Mo Vaughn and Ellis
> >Burks were faces of the franchise.
> >
> >To me race has no bearing on winning. However no race should be
> >rejected because if it is then you are limiting your talent pool. I'm
> >not old enough to know how long it took for Boston to have non-white
> >ballplayers. They've had them my whole life.
>
>
> Race does have a bearing on winning when a team's ownership decides to
> omit players of quality because of their color.
>
> You may not have been alive at the time, but the Sox were the last
> team to have black players on their team. Unfortunately, in years
> previous to that time, they had chances to sign great players whose
> only fault was the color of their skin.
Well, not their only fault. 1) They were unproven at the time they had an
opportunity to sign the two. And BTW, even if they made an offer who is to
say the player would have accepted it. Since they gave tryouts they must
have considered the value. and 2) If they had signed a couple blacks in
the early years there woulld have been the danger of fans burning Fenway
down.
So there's at least 2 more reasons.
Srgnt Billko
<mitchel...@iNiOiSiPiA.nMu.invalid> wrote in message
news:d05dej$png$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
> Briscobar <you...@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>
> : I think I have to agree with Gnork. Whether the PC term for "black" is
> : "black" or "African American", the fact remains that many of the Latin
> : players (and indeed not just baseball players) are the same color as the
> : people we refer to as "black" or "African American". So, while they may
not
> : be African (or American), many of them are the same color. Which, IMO,
> : doesn't matter a bit, but since it was brought up...
>
> i think the point is that yawkey probably wouldn't have hired them.
My point is that in the 30's and most of the 40's no team owner would hire
"them".
And then for the next 40 or 50 years no team owner would hire an Asian -
including Sodoharo Oh - the greatest home run hitter in the world.
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
> <mitchel...@iNiOiSiPiA.nMu.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d05dej$png$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu...
> > Briscobar <you...@sendmespam.com> wrote:
> >
> > : I think I have to agree with Gnork. Whether the PC term for
"black" is
> > : "black" or "African American", the fact remains that many of the
Latin
return true;" onMouseOut="window.status='';"
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onclick="location.href='http://www.enhancemysearch.com/admin/results.php?q=Baseball&id=68';return
false;" href="" TITLE="More Info..."> baseball </a>players) are the
same color as the
> > : people we refer to as "black" or "African American". So, while
they may
> not
> > : be African (or American), many of them are the same color. Which,
IMO,
> > : doesn't matter a bit, but since it was brought up...
> >
> > i think the point is that yawkey probably wouldn't have hired them.
> > m i t c h e l l a s t e r http://
/ /
>
> My point is that in the 30's and most of the 40's no team owner would
hire
> "them".
> And then for the next 40 or 50 years no team owner would hire an
Asian -
> including Sodoharo Oh - the greatest home run hitter in the world.
The pennant winning 1967 Red Sox was one of the most integrated teams
in baseball at that time. Later Yawkey went out of his way to help Luis
Tiant bring his parents to the USA from Cuba. To wrap him in a full
coat of unrepentant racism is highly unfair. He was a preoduct of his
times, a white man born in the early 1900s who grew up mostly in the
south. Eventually he adapted very well to a new look at society. It is
unfortunate it didn't happen sooner. It is sad that the virulent racist
Pinky Higgins managed the team for so long.
Further there is no "Sodoharo Oh". Oh yes, I am correct.
DonFro...@webtv.net
just excoriating you for the technical error.
--
m i t c h e l l a s t e r
http:// / />>
Words took right out of my mouth mitch.
DON !!!
GOING SIMPLE !!!
GO 200FIVE BOSTON
RED SOX !!!
Jim Tiberio
"Srgnt Billko" <fr...@blipl.net> wrote in message
news:WGpVd.94459$Th1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jim Tiberio
> because if it is then you are limiting your talent pool.
Well, that's one reason but there are better ones.
mitchel...@inioisipia.nmu.invalid
: The pennant winning 1967 Red Sox was one of the most integrated teams
: in baseball at that time. Later Yawkey went out of his way to help Luis
: Tiant bring his parents to the USA from Cuba. To wrap him in a full
: coat of unrepentant racism is highly unfair. He was a preoduct of his
: times, a white man born in the early 1900s who grew up mostly in the
: south. Eventually he adapted very well to a new look at society. It is
: unfortunate it didn't happen sooner. It is sad that the virulent racist
: Pinky Higgins managed the team for so long.
all right, i don't mean to pick on yawkey, i don't know anything about
him. just say "one with an aversion to hiring blacks probably would
not choose to employ david ortiz."
--
m i t c h e l l a s t e r http:// / /
"He is the ultimate human." - bismo on theo
X-rated Vermonter
>
>I admit I took the quote as wrong and thought African American when I
>thought black. But I'm pretty discouraged that you didn't see that I
>was trying to argue for an anti-racist point.
If Ortiz is not black, does that mean that Nomar is not white?
Todd
Dude...I agree with you. Just look at my quote above. I mistook the
original quote. Ortiz is obviously black, but he is not african american.
--
T$
mitchel...@inioisipia.nmu.invalid
: If Ortiz is not black, does that mean that Nomar is not white?
no, nomar's an arab-tino.
--
m i t c h e l l a s t e r http:// / /
"And I call her String Bean Jean because the label on her jeans says
Seven to eight years old - well that's pretty small"
McDuck
quacked:
This issue has been done to death. Black is not about skin color. No
living person is actually black skinned, although there are some
people with black hair (many Chinese, for example, but few if any
African Americans). Of course, no living person has white skin --- and
I've met some albinos, who do not have much skin coloring, but their
skin is not white. "Dark" and "Light" would be more descriptive terms
if we were talking only about skin color, but then a lot of Blacks
would be Light, and a lot of Whites would be Dark.
As a matter of American Culture, Black is a direct substitute for
Negro (that change took place in the late 60s), and Aftrican American
is a direct substitute for Black (that change took place in the early
90s). Individuals born and raised outside the U.S. generally were not
considered as falling in the category of Negro/Black/African American.
There are exceptions to that general rule, but Pedro and Ortiz do ntot
fall within any exception I am away of. Manny might.
The concepts seem to be a bit fluid these days, with some people
mistakenly thinking that "Black" is about skin color and then making a
distinction between Black and African American. Well, language
evolves, and it is fine with me that it does. In any event, I do not
see "racisim" involved in the use of the labels.
McDuck
<gn...@yahoo.com> quacked:
>
>The pennant winning 1967 Red Sox was one of the most integrated teams
>in baseball at that time. Later Yawkey went out of his way to help Luis
>Tiant bring his parents to the USA from Cuba. To wrap him in a full
>coat of unrepentant racism is highly unfair. He was a preoduct of his
>times, a white man born in the early 1900s who grew up mostly in the
>south. Eventually he adapted very well to a new look at society. It is
>unfortunate it didn't happen sooner. It is sad that the virulent racist
>Pinky Higgins managed the team for so long.
>
Your comment on Yawkey is fair. He did change and was not a bad guy,
etc. Growing up in the society that he did, it was inevitable that he
would ahve views that we would now characterize as racist.
But southerners of his generation generally would have made a
distinction between a foreign dark-skinned person and an American
Negro. Visitors to the South from Africa, for example, were not
subject to the "colored" rules --- they could eat in restaurants, for
example, that excluded Negros. I do not know how dark-skinned people
from the Caribbean Islands were treated --- my guess is badly, but I
do not know.
Bob-Nob
<snip>
> But southerners of his generation generally would have made a
> distinction between a foreign dark-skinned person and an American
> Negro. Visitors to the South from Africa, for example, were not
> subject to the "colored" rules --- they could eat in restaurants, for
> example, that excluded Negros.
Source? I've never heard this.
Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer
--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | "For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!"
IF1, IF3, IF9: best films, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
(What are YOU doing this weekend? See IF12 on May 23rd, 2004)
X-rated Vermonter
<wallymcdu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:37:57 GMT, Todd <tca...@deletencia.net>
>quacked:
>
>>X-rated Vermonter wrote:
>>> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:05:17 GMT, Todd <tca...@deletencia.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I admit I took the quote as wrong and thought African American when I
>>>>thought black. But I'm pretty discouraged that you didn't see that I
>>>>was trying to argue for an anti-racist point.
>>>
>>>
>>> If Ortiz is not black, does that mean that Nomar is not white?
>>>
>>
>>Dude...I agree with you. Just look at my quote above. I mistook the
>>original quote. Ortiz is obviously black, but he is not african american.
>
>This issue has been done to death. Black is not about skin color. No
>living person is actually black skinned, although there are some
>people with black hair (many Chinese, for example, but few if any
>African Americans). Of course, no living person has white skin --- and
>I've met some albinos, who do not have much skin coloring, but their
>skin is not white. "Dark" and "Light" would be more descriptive terms
>if we were talking only about skin color, but then a lot of Blacks
>would be Light, and a lot of Whites would be Dark.
=========
I beg to disagree. People who hail from the Caribbean can include a
mixture of African, European and Native American ancestry. African
ancestry slaves existed throughout the Caribbean region, as they
existed in the US.
And I suspect that back before WW2, Ortiz would have had a problem
getting a drink of water from a "white only" fountain in the deep
South.
Are you suggesting that in the days when racism was more rampant,
people with African ancestry born in the USA suffered discrimination,
but people with African ancestry born in the Caribbean did not?.
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
Gary Sheffield used when with the Dodgers.(others have said about the
same thing). He complained about the dearth of "black" players on the
Dodgers. He mentioned one or two others. He ignored all the black
latino players. This is flat out stupid. Sheffield's real whine was not
that there were too few black players, but that he wanted more U.S.
native black players with whom he could identify culturally, not
racially. I hate it when people who should know better do that. It's as
if all the great black players before Jackie Robinson needed to do was
be fluent in Spanish and they could then have played in the majors.
That thought is patently false as is the current BS about not enough
"black" players, when "American black" is what is meant. That is an
entirely different story.
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
Gnork aka The Gnorkmeister
Gary wrote:
>> If the above wasn't true, the Sox might have very well won the World
> Series before last year.
They did. Five times.
Pearly Soames
> Bingo!
>
Wrong NG. But congratulations on winning.
--
We've got the power of the nicotine bomb.
McDuck
quacked:
>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:33:59 -0500, McDuck
><wallymcdu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>This issue has been done to death. Black is not about skin color. No
>>living person is actually black skinned, although there are some
>>people with black hair (many Chinese, for example, but few if any
>>African Americans). Of course, no living person has white skin --- and
>>I've met some albinos, who do not have much skin coloring, but their
>>skin is not white. "Dark" and "Light" would be more descriptive terms
>>if we were talking only about skin color, but then a lot of Blacks
>>would be Light, and a lot of Whites would be Dark.
>
>=========
>I beg to disagree. People who hail from the Caribbean can include a
>mixture of African, European and Native American ancestry. African
>ancestry slaves existed throughout the Caribbean region, as they
>existed in the US.
>
>And I suspect that back before WW2, Ortiz would have had a problem
>getting a drink of water from a "white only" fountain in the deep
>South.
>
>Are you suggesting that in the days when racism was more rampant,
>people with African ancestry born in the USA suffered discrimination,
>but people with African ancestry born in the Caribbean did not?.
I did not say that. I said that Africans coming to the South were
treated as "White" under the colored laws. As I noted in another post,
I do not know how Caribbean Blacks were treated in the South --- I
don't think v. many wandered into the South to find out <g>. But, like
you, I'd guess that they would have been treated badly, as I already
indicated in another post. Part of my point was that the color line in
the South was not the same as the color line for baseball. In
baseball, I think it was pretty much a "color" line.
By the way, you are right that the Caribbean residents are a mix of
races, but the mix is even more motley that you suggest. For example,
there is a fair amount of Indian (from India) blood, at least on some
of the islands (e.g., Grenada). The Brits brought in people from a
variety of places to work the sugar plantations, not just African
slaves.
McDuck
(Bob-Nob) quacked:
>McDuck venit, vidit, et dixit:
>
><snip>
>
>> But southerners of his generation generally would have made a
>> distinction between a foreign dark-skinned person and an American
>> Negro. Visitors to the South from Africa, for example, were not
>> subject to the "colored" rules --- they could eat in restaurants, for
>> example, that excluded Negros.
>
> Source? I've never heard this.
>
Personal observation. I've never looked for a source. But I have
chatted with some African diplomats who reported nice treatment in the
South in the 1950s. I was told it was a point of honor among Southern
gents to show hospitality to foreign Blacks. As I indicated, I have no
information on the treatment of Caribbean Blacks, who also have a
slave history. I doubt many of them were tourists in the South, so it
is not surprising that the topic never arose with me.
I first visited the South in 1960, when racial tensions were v. high.
I never did anything courageous myself, but I did visit some Freedom
Riders who were in jail in Jackson, Mississippi (and almost got run
over by an angry local when I was taking a pic of the famous colored
sign at the Greyhound bus station in that fair city).
Keith Willoughby
> I first visited the South in 1960, when racial tensions were v. high.
> I never did anything courageous myself, but I did visit some Freedom
> Riders who were in jail in Jackson, Mississippi (and almost got run
> over by an angry local when I was taking a pic of the famous colored
> sign at the Greyhound bus station in that fair city).
Dude. You're all, like, old and stuff.
--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
Hello playmates
McDuck
<ke...@flat222.org> quacked:
>McDuck <wallymcdu...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> I first visited the South in 1960, when racial tensions were v. high.
>> I never did anything courageous myself, but I did visit some Freedom
>> Riders who were in jail in Jackson, Mississippi (and almost got run
>> over by an angry local when I was taking a pic of the famous colored
>> sign at the Greyhound bus station in that fair city).
>
>Dude. You're all, like, old and stuff.
Wait 'til I start telling stories about my charge up San Juan Hill and
my many acts of kindness to the Buffalo Soldiers.