Is it just me?
X-rated Vermonter
for $8M, and, before Spring training even begins, it is "discovered"
that, due to an injury, it is possible that the player will be unable
to take the field.
Even if the injury was unknown to anyone at the time of signing, isn't
there a concept of "force majeure"?
And given that the player involved is over 40 years old and was
disabled much of the 2007 season, wouldn't "due diligence" require an
extensive physical examination prior to signing, or escape clauses for
a suddenly discovered debilitating injury?
Maybe I just have not been following close enough to know what
actually happened.
Maybe we could trade him for Carl Pavano.
Dano
"X-rated Vermonter" <k1xvn...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:9792u35dtchcnrsfg...@4ax.com...
That's really unfair IMO. First of all...Schilling had an offer for more
money although it was for two years. As he himself said, if he was trying
to pull a fast one, he would have done it elsewhere. He bargained in good
faith. The Red Sox DID indeed examine him. They are intimately familiar
with his medical status. 8 million is serious money, but hardly out of
line. Furthermore he is accepting the team's preference for treatment
despite the fact that both he and his personal doctor feel the better course
is to have surgery now. These things happen. I'm hoping he can return late
in the season and provide a boost right into the post-season. If he does
that...and performs well at that point...8 mil will still be well worth it.
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Since without him the Sox would probably still be looking for a World
Series ring, I say we bronze him and put him in Center Field instead
of all this 'What have you done for me lately' bullshit.
Magnus, Robot Fighter
wrote:
Not to mention, he could of taken surgery....told the Sox to go fuck
themselves and go ahead and void his contract...and signed for 10
million in August for whoever is heading into the playoffs.*
*Assuming of course that he'd be ready in time for the playoffs
X-rated Vermonter
wrote:
>
>That's really unfair IMO. First of all...Schilling had an offer for more
>money although it was for two years. As he himself said, if he was trying
>to pull a fast one, he would have done it elsewhere. He bargained in good
>faith. The Red Sox DID indeed examine him. They are intimately familiar
>with his medical status. 8 million is serious money, but hardly out of
>line. Furthermore he is accepting the team's preference for treatment
>despite the fact that both he and his personal doctor feel the better course
>is to have surgery now. These things happen. I'm hoping he can return late
>in the season and provide a boost right into the post-season. If he does
>that...and performs well at that point...8 mil will still be well worth it.
I think you mis-read my initial post. I never suggested that anyone
was trying to pull a fast one. Rather, I suggested that somebody in
management dropped the ball on due diligence.
And it is very understandable, from a hard dollars and common sense
point of view, that the Sox management would want him to avoid surgery
that would make him unavailable for the entire season. After all, it
is a one year contract they are holding!!
If surgery really is the better medical course of action, which it
likely is, wouldn't it make more sense for everybody to renegotiate
the contract into a two year contract, with a lower level of salary
for 2008, with the team having an option to bring him back (assuming
he is healthy) in 2009?
CalC
> "X-rated Vermonter" <k1xvnos...@arrl.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think it was stated he did NOT have an MRI on the arm/shoulder as
the Sox felt familiar enough with it...........however other teams may
not have felt so familiar and may have made him have the MRI who
knows. With that said I don't think he did anything deceptive nor do I
blame him for talking about surgery as a quite well qualified and
respected Dr. advised it. Now with that said there are differing
opinions on the right course and hopefully he gives the teams approach
a real shot and we'll see what happens. I think the sad part is he may
need the surgery anyway and this will only prolong the few outings he
has left in his arm. I wish the guy well and hope he has enough for 1
more September/October run as one other poster noted without him the
1918 chant would likely still be going on.
Fred Burton
"Magnus, Robot Fighter" <M...@Key.com> wrote in message
news:qi0mr3ta5cgeiq80u...@4ax.com...
I actually agree with you here, Magnus. It sounds to me as if Schill's
injury
happened after signing the contract. And the fact that he was a major
factor
in the Sox winning 2 WS after such a long drought earns him some major
brownie points in my mind.
John Poutre
10 Mil in August? In his dreams, I don't think he would get anything like
that coming off surgery at his age and what he has done recently.
BT
>
> - Show quoted text -
According to the Globe, the Sox were not able to get insurance for his
contract. So they're paying him regardless of whether his pitches or
not. I wonder how this affected their thinking.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/02/15/sunshine_state/
To me, Schilling is a Red Sox hero, who helped bring 2 WS
championships to Boston, and I wish him a speedy recovery.
BTT
LET'S GO BACK-TO-BACK!!
Steve Robbins
I agree with you and if they didn't MRI his shoulder, I don't understand
it. I would think at the end of every season you would give every
player a complete physical and perform any diagnostic tests that you
feel is appropriate for that player (check a knee if they had past knee
issues, etc). An MRI on a pitcher's shoulder being a must. Then any
off season surgery or physical therapy can start early and allow plenty
of recovery time. How often does a player have a late start to the year
because some pain came up in an off season workout?
Then I would repeat the same tests as they came into spring training.
This way you can detect if an injury flared during an off season workout
and you can react appropriately instead of having it get worse as the
player pushes through it.
--
The Unofficial a.s.b.b-r Reference Page
http://redsox.robbins-ut.com/index.html
dv...@altavista.com
> Since without him the Sox would probably still be looking for a World
> Series ring, I say we bronze him and put him in Center Field instead
> of all this 'What have you done for me lately' bullshit.
I agree 100%. If I were the Sox, I'd listen to the doc who's dealt
with him before and let him have his surgery, then hope for a
recovery. How is resting a spaghetti strand shoulder ligament going
to help?
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Recently? Like going 3-0 in the playoffs?
If you were the Angels, you wouldn't risk 10mill on Curt Schilling as
your number three starter in the playoffs? I mean...you're probably
right, but it would be something to think about.
Condors55
baseball veteran for crying out loud!
If it were me, no way someone was gonna decide for me whatever was
gonna happen to my body. My arm, my decision. And keep the lousy money
if it's that important to ya.
QuiGon
> for $8M, and, before Spring training even begins, it is "discovered"
> that, due to an injury, it is possible that the player will be unable
> to take the field.
>
> Even if the injury was unknown to anyone at the time of signing, isn't
> there a concept of "force majeure"?
An excellent question, but I would submit that the current CBA has probably
addressed all possible issues along these lines... AFAIK, unless there is
negligence on the part of the pitcher (like if Schilling hurt his shoulder
skydiving) then it is entirely the Red Sox' responsibility to conduct a
physical beforehand and they have no recourse afterwards.
QuiGon
news:2xEuj.5326$y05...@newsfe22.lga...
>
> 10 Mil in August? In his dreams, I don't think he would get anything like
> that coming off surgery at his age and what he has done recently.
Assuming he meant a pro-rated $10 million, I think that there would
definitely be some club willing to take that chance.
John Poutre
news:bM6dnVSo97n1syba...@comcast.com...
I thought he was saying straight 10 mil, which is nuts.
Now, if he paid Clemens a visit, then......
(j/k)
Dano
"Steve Robbins" <srobbins31@no_spam_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZIGdnZRcSadWgSba...@comcast.com...
saying that stuff happens. Injuries are a constant risk. From what I have
hears (who knows if it's true) the injury occurred this January, in his
preparations for the season.
Dano
>
> If surgery really is the better medical course of action, which it
> likely is, wouldn't it make more sense for everybody to renegotiate
> the contract into a two year contract, with a lower level of salary
> for 2008, with the team having an option to bring him back (assuming
> he is healthy) in 2009?
It might...if it weren't for his current stated intention to retire after
this season.
That is why he is going along with the team's request to not have
surgery...even though he (and his own doctor) disagrees with that course of
treatment.
Dano
"Condors55" <Curs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac39ec1d-8bd2-4fe5...@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
If it were you...or anyone else...I don't believe you would have that
option. It is my understanding that teams have the final say on these
decisions. Of course one could always retire and decline the 8 million
bucks. I don't believe that makes one a free agent automatically for what
should be obvious reasons. He could come back the following season as a FA,
but I've heard him say it is his intent to retire after this year.
Steve Robbins
> saying that stuff happens. Injuries are a constant risk. From what I
> have hears (who knows if it's true) the injury occurred this January, in
> his preparations for the season.
Well, first I was saying the above in the sense that I feel it would be
a good business practice in general. And what got me thinking that way
is that I read somewhere that because they had records on Schilling all
year long, so they bypassed doing an MRI before signing him. Now if I
could just find that link. . . Ah well, maybe later it will come to me.
QuiGon
>>
>> Assuming he meant a pro-rated $10 million, I think that there would
>> definitely be some club willing to take that chance.
>
> I thought he was saying straight 10 mil, which is nuts.
Heh... yeah that would be about $30 million pro rated.... Even the Yankees
aren't *that* stupid :-D
Magnus, Robot Fighter
wrote:
*If* he went 3-0 in the playoffs, that's more value then Clemens gave
per win....and how much more valuable are playoff wins then regular
season ones?
Look at it as not paying 30 million pro-rated, look at it as paying
for three quality starts from one of the greatest post-season pitchers
ever. Of course none of that is guaranteed.
Ok, then. Let's say you're the Mets and have all but (Ha!) secured a
playoff spot in August (Which i *think* is the latest you can add a 40
roster member) and can sign Curt Schilling, but he won't be ready
until October.....how much would you be willing to pay?
Dano
Well I wouldn't be at all surprised. You have to accept that there will be
a certain amount of wear and tear on an over 40 pitcher's arm. You either
decide it's worth the gamble or not. No sure things with an older player
like Schill...or Wake for that matter. Did you see what happened with
Clement...again?
McDuck
<M...@Key.com> wrote:
>
>Since without him the Sox would probably still be looking for a World
>Series ring, I say we bronze him and put him in Center Field instead
>of all this 'What have you done for me lately' bullshit.
Schilling was not the biggest plasyoff hero of 2004, but he was a
hero, no doubt. In terms of actual performance, I'd put Ortiz, Manny,
Foulke, Lowe, and Pedro (only slightly) ahead of him. Maybe also Mark
Bellhorn (nods to Bob-Nob). But Schill gets the drama prize with the
bloody sock, and he did have three well-pitched and important games in
the playoffs.
McDuck
wrote:
And the right way to do business. The team is in the better position
to handle the risk of injury.
CalC
wrote:
> Dano wrote:
>
> > "Steve Robbins" <srobbins31@no_spam_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:ZIGdnZRcSadWgSba...@comcast.com...
> >> X-rated Vermonter wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I saw that as well and was left with the same assumption that it was
NOT done prior to contract. Which IMHO is the sox fault as much/more
than him. He would need to have had a private MRI done and have known
the damage prior to signing the deal for this to be shady and:
-I don't think he wants to go out that way
-Considers himself an ethical guy and wouldn't want to jeopardize
that.
-Takes way too much creative thinking to make me believe that.
-Likely doesn't need the money bad enough to go thru that.
With that said I saw something the other day that said they DID do
one, which to me if true is Case Closed to conspiricy theories.
I just think he's earned a pass and has always been up front and
honest to a fault. I wish him the best, thank hi for all he's done and
hope he has something to offer for one more run.
DonFro...@webtv.net
<<Since without him the Sox would probably still be looking for a World
Series ring, I say we bronze him and put him in Center Field instead of
all this 'What have you done for me lately' bullshit. >>
<<Schilling was not the biggest plasyoff hero of 2004, but he was a
hero, no doubt. In terms of actual performance, I'd put Ortiz, Manny,
Foulke, Lowe, and Pedro (only slightly) ahead of him. Maybe also Mark
Bellhorn (nods to Bob-Nob). But Schill gets the drama prize with the
bloody sock, and he did have three well-pitched and important games in
the playoffs. >>
The quote doesn't say that Curt was the biggest playoff hero in 2004. I
tend to agree with the "without him" the Sox don't win the 2004 World
Series comment, but from a 'he was the final major puzzle piece' that
put that team over the top. And the "without him" comment probably
applies to several players that year.
--
DON !!!
New sig line
pending a
brain storm!!!
Condors55
> "Condors55" <Curse1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ac39ec1d-8bd2-4fe5...@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Let the guy decide whatever he thinks his body needs. He a 40+ y/o
> > baseball veteran for crying out loud!
>
> > If it were me, no way someone was gonna decide for me whatever was
> > gonna happen to my body. My arm, my decision. And keep the lousy money
> > if it's that important to ya.
>
> If it were you...or anyone else...I don't believe you would have that
> option. It is my understanding that teams have the final say on these
Nope, you guys in the US gave up on the concept of slavery some 100+
years ago. Think it was even in the papers. Made a big announcement
and all.....
So in the end it's allways the individual who decides. Of course
there's still the small matter of the 8 million. Think Schilling needs
another 8 million?
Dano
___________________________________________________
How is a contractual obligation...based on the CBA...to be considered
*slavery*?
He has the right to retire and walk away from 8 million bucks...as Keith
Foulke did a year ago.
You really think 8 million dollars is a small consideration? To ANYONE?
QuiGon
>
> *If* he went 3-0 in the playoffs, that's more value then Clemens gave
> per win....and how much more valuable are playoff wins then regular
> season ones?
>
> Look at it as not paying 30 million pro-rated, look at it as paying
> for three quality starts from one of the greatest post-season pitchers
> ever. Of course none of that is guaranteed.
>
> Ok, then. Let's say you're the Mets and have all but (Ha!) secured a
> playoff spot in August (Which i *think* is the latest you can add a 40
> roster member) and can sign Curt Schilling, but he won't be ready
> until October.....how much would you be willing to pay?
Let's say it is July 31st and there is exactly 1/3rd of the season
remaining... The problem is there are no guarantees and he is coming off an
injury... I mean, if the Lord Almighty came down from on high and told me
he would return to 2001 form, then yeah I'd do the $30 million which
pro-rates down to $10 million...
But given the extremely uncertain status of his health and strength, I'd go
$12 million which pro-rates down to $4 million. Just one man's humble
opinion :-D
McDuck
Right. I was not being argumentative. As you noted, a half dozen
players were critical, and another half dozen were quite important in
the playoffs. Lots of heros, but I was just noting that Schilling was
not #1 in performance.
J Buck
Schilling as your number three starter in the playoffs?>
If Eric Gagne can get 10 mill from the Brewers, ANYthing is possible.