New Cue ....
Texas Willee
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/willee1.jpg
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/willee2.jpg
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/willee3.jpg
I wanted to try some brass highlights on this one and I think it came out
fairly decent.
Do you think I should have left out the Bocote points in the Purpleheart.
Texas Willee
Gary L Robinson
I can hardly see the Bocote points in the Purpleheart from the
picture. But, with or without, it is a nice looking cue.
-Gary R (Bubba)
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:16:52 GMT, "Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com>
wrote:
Jimbo Ct
Purpleheart.
>
Yes or added them at the bottom also, also I think you should have done the
same rings throughout the cue, not just at the wrap area, but at the butt and
at the joint. And you should try to sharpen up them inlays, it's JUST AS EASY
you know;-)
Jim <----O you didn't want my opinion did you?
Texas Willee
but then I would have needed to do the same thing at the joint and didn't
feel that they would look right there.
I just left them kinda framing the handle.
Live and learn. Each cue teaches me something new.
As far as I have experienced, sharp points are harder to do and take more
time than rounded ones on inlays. The exception being points that are cut
into the forearm with a 90 deg. router cutter and come to a point naturally.
Inlay pockets cut in with a pantograph or CNC router needs extra hand work
to get the points sharp. But you have already said all that before so I will
not elaborate further.
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020714172304...@mb-mv.aol.com...
Mark0
pointy....
MArk0 <--nit picker
"Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:UthY8.120821$q53.2...@twister.austin.rr.com...
The Corner Pocket
much?!
Lisa
"Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:UthY8.120821$q53.2...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Texas Willee
That cue will most likly sell for around $275.
But I plan to play with it for a week or so before selling it.
Texas Willee
"The Corner Pocket" <thecorn...@troycable.net> wrote in message
news:3d3228b9$1...@news.vic.com...
Texas Willee
Any inlay off my Pantograph machine has the rounded points.
There are ways to achieve sharp points with a pantograph but I have not the
experience yet to do so.
Black epoxy used to set sharp pointed diamonds in rounded ebony pockets is
one way to do it.
I have seen some CNC stuff cut with a real fine finish mill cutter that you
gotta look real hard at to see the round point.
Texas Willee
"Mark0" <poola...@fultonian.com> wrote in message
news:uj49s7a...@corp.supernews.com...
sittingduck
> I have seen some CNC stuff cut with a real fine finish mill cutter that you
> gotta look real hard at to see the round point.
>
Jimbo Ct
>time than rounded ones on inlays.
Well what's your hurry? I don't understand your need to pump out another cue
every week to impress us. You claim you aren't doig it for money or to sell yet
you want to pump out a cue a week and put them on e-bay. How bout you take your
time and learn something new and do some nice work. Or keep doing the same and
show everyone how great you are by banging them out once a week. In about 2
years they'll call them TexASS Willy's boomarangs.
Jim <----Cues aren't meant to be made in a week
Jimbo Ct
is
>one way to do it.
That's not the way, if you really want to know how I'll E-mail you, but of
course you know I'm not a cuemaker right.
Jim<----Not a cuemaker
Jimbo Ct
Great work Sheldon, please stop showing off, I wish sheldon would stop making
the kids look bad in public.
Jim <---Likes what Sheldon has been doing.
Texas Willee
Finishing alone takes me three days.
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020715052040...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Texas Willee
Lets not go back to that same old song again.
There are several methods that was just one.
You want a good book on cuemaking?
Look at Chris Hightower's cue making book.
It is all in there.
Yes, I want to know how you think they should be done.
If it is something I think I can do I will try it.
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020715052230...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Chas
> .......Cues aren't meant to be made in a week
$275 for a week's work by a skilled man on expensive wood in an
outfitted shop doesn't sound like he's being greedy.
Go see what your plumber would charge to do it.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403
ch...@kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://chasclements.tripod.com/index.htm
Patrick Johnson
I can drink and relieve myself without a cue.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Chas
>
> > Go see what your plumber would charge to do it.
>
> I can drink and relieve myself without a cue.
everybody hates a show-off
Patrick Johnson
>
> everybody hates a show-off
lol
pj
chgo
Smorgass Bored
Patrick Johnson brags :
Pat Johnson
Chicago
(*<~ Hell, that's nothing. I can SLEEP and relieve myself at the same
time.
#1 AND #2 ...........
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Jimbo Ct
>outfitted shop doesn't sound like he's being greedy.
>Go see what your plumber would charge to do it.
Hey Chas lay off the weed.
Jim <---What is he posting to?
Jimbo Ct
Smorg look, Dumbo said Doig. LOL O my God what a fool, he is so dumb LOL
ROFLMAO LOL LOL I can't believe what a moron, I wish someone would teach Dumbo
to spell doing. LOL
Jim <---WOW ! Doug you're right that was fun.
Chas
>
> Chas saz: >$275 for a week's work by a skilled man on expensive wood in an
> >outfitted shop doesn't sound like he's being greedy.
> >Go see what your plumber would charge to do it.
> Hey Chas lay off the weed.
I don't have any staff, so lay-offs are not a problem.
> Jim <---What is he posting to?
The idea that 'greed' was somehow a motivator for TW. If he does a cue
a week (which he denies), and his price is around $275, that means
that he's working for about 1/3 of what a plumber makes.
What do *you* think is a fair price for a weeks work by a skilled man
in an outfitted shop, using expensive materials with a high cull rate?
Jimbo Ct
cue
>a week (which he denies), and his price is around $275, that means
>that he's working for about 1/3 of what a plumber makes.
>What do *you* think is a fair price for a weeks work by a skilled man
>in an outfitted shop, using
No the idea was your post, this one and the last had nothing to do with the
thread at all, go back and read it and try to follow it. He claims he's doing
it for fun and he claims they aren't for sale, but his actions speak louder
then his words. I never said a word about what they are worth other then the
fact that the cue didn't sell so everyone on e-bay thought the price was to
high.
Jim <-------thinks they are worth triple that price
Chas
> ......He claims he's doing
> it for fun and he claims they aren't for sale, but his actions speak louder
> then his words.
The fact that one is having fun whilst making something is irrelevant
to whether he asks for money as he passes it on or not.
TW has refined his skills and his studio to such a level as to have a
market for his 'experiments'. In order to become a Schick or a Black
or a Gutierrez, one must both refine basic skills and experiment with
ones own aesthete.
I find no contradiction between his 'artistic commitment' and his
offering of his work for sale at all. It's an expensive journey to
become any sort of proficient craftsman/artisan/artist in any sort of
resistant medium, much less in a refined technical sort of 'canvas'. A
pool cue is a closed canvas- they're only of very small variation,
everybody has the same technical requirements and artistic problems to
solve.
I think that your comments were more smallminded than 'right' or
'wrong'. You may well have a logical process for reaching your
conclusion, I just think it's really petty to care.
Jimbo Ct
>market for his 'experiments'
You're wrong and you can't read. On a good day I'd be up for the argument you
are trying so hard for, but not today, sorry better luck next time.
Chas: >I find no contradiction between his 'artistic commitment' and his
>offering of his work for sale
Once again I'll say you can't read.
Jim <----Good day my friend
Edward Kagan
discussion immediately takes place. I don't understand why we cannot just
be supportive of his efforts and offer friendly advice and encouragement.
Yes, we all like sharp points and inlays, but don't say that Willee is
simply trying to save time to churn out another cue every week. If you are
a cuemaker - offer him help, if you are a lament like myself - just offer a
suggestion. By the way, to me it looks like his inlays are now much sharper
than before.
Personally, I find that Willee has come a LONG way from his initial efforts
to this last example. The design is nice, beautiful even (can't vouch for
quality, as I never shot with one of his cues) and that piece of bocote in
the buttsleeve is simply gorgeous.
Willee, if you put this one on E-Bay, I think I just might bid on it
(shhhhh, don't tell my wife).
Ed Kagan
Los Angeles, CA
"Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:UthY8.120821$q53.2...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Smorgass Bored
if you are a lament like myself
Los Angeles, CA
(*<~ Funny, you don't look lament.
only a layman at this humor business,
Jimbo Ct
Hey Ed I don't think this is the case, I mean all the cuemakers who do CNC
points and rounded inlays say that everyone likes them. Wait a minute, maybe
they are just making that up because they like to take the easy way out? Can
that be???? I can't believe it.
Jim <------Thinks Ed may have uncovered a conspiracy
Bradley E. Robertson
copy editor for Hunting and Fishing News.
Brad . . . who spells'm like they sound
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27804-3D...@storefull-2311.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Edward Kagan
Give me a break - I'm an import, lol.
Ed
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27804-3D...@storefull-2311.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
Edward Kagan
I can't recall any cuemaker's claim that rounded CNC points are
aesthetically superior to sharp, hand-inlaid/spliced points. But I will
take your word for it. However, this has nothing to do with my post
regarding one particular cuemaker - Texas Willee.
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020719145907...@mb-md.aol.com...
Smorgass Bored
Bradley E. Robertson guesses wrong:
or a copy editor for Hunting and Fishing News.
Brad
(*<~ If you suspect me of any type of Job or gainful employment, then
you are WRONG.....
after 5 years, they hardly know me,
Jimbo Ct
>aesthetically superior to sharp,
You don't pay attention well, last year Mr. Pechauer claimed that people liked
the rounded stuff, he claimed if they wanted Sharp stuff he'd make it and since
he don't I guess people like em round. BTW he also claimed CNC points were as
hard/easy as sharp, so it wasn't a matter of work or cost.
ED: >this has nothing to do with my post
>regarding one particular cuemaker - Texas Willee.
Here we go again. If you paid attention you'd know that the problem wit TW
isn't his work (not many have seen it) but the terminology "Cuemaker". As I
agree he is an ambitious man and maybe even a skilled man, but with all his
good qualities he's still just a guy trying to learn to be a cuemaker.
Everyone's cues look good in pictures, but there is a reason why Southwest has
a 6 year wait and other can't give their cues away.
Jim <----Cuemaker maker
Texas Willee
> but there is a reason why Southwest has
> a 6 year wait and other can't give their cues away.
>
> Jim <----Cuemaker maker
>
And some of us actually know the real reason why!
Texas Willee
Texas Willee
That cue is in the hands of a local player who bought it the moment he seen
it.
I have been busy working on sharpining points in a cue and will post a ling
to a photo.
Texas Willee
"Edward Kagan" <odes...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:oXXZ8.3071$wK4.11...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Jimbo Ct
Yes I'm sure you do, I'm sure it's an insider secret and just you insiders know
it, I'm sure you could duplicate it *If you wanted*.
Jim <------Can never understand willy
Texas Willee
It is just smart marketing of a good product that creates a desire to own
one.
And no, I could not duplicate it.
I could, however, adapt concepts from their cues or get new ideas from them.
Why do you so often imply I am doing something wrong when you post back to
me?
I thought we agreed to show each other a bit of respect.
Did I misunderstand you?
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020721064011...@mb-mv.aol.com...
Jimbo Ct
Smart marketing????Can you please elaborate on this, please show or tell me
where they advertised or what marketing they did.
Willy: > I could not duplicate it.
Why not?
Willy:>Why do you so often imply I am doing something wrong
I'm sorry please explain where I implied you were doing something wrong?
Willy: >I thought we agreed to show each other a bit of respect.
I don't feel I disresspected you, but again please point out what part of my
post implied this.
Willy: >Did I misunderstand you?
>
I'm sure you did.
Jim <--------Southwest tricked me with smart marketing
Edward Kagan
I think the reason people don't ask for sharper points is simply because
they don't know they have this option. For one, I didn't. Plus, if I'm
buying a production cue (I know, I know, don't want to open a can of worms,
but I do consider JP cues as fine as they are to be production cues), I
don't want to wait while they are sharpening up the points. Besides, inlaid
points are inlaid points, whether they are hand enlaid or CNC'd.
Personally, I like spliced points with veneer work.
As far as definition of a "cuemaker", this topic has been discussed here in
detail and again, I don't want to open a can of worms. My opinion is that
since Willee is making cues, he is a cuemaker. However, there are always
going to be good cuemakers, bad cuemakers, accomplished cuemakers and
beginning cuemakers. Do you have to make cues for a living to qualify as a
cuemaker? I don't think so. Murrey Tucker makes cues as a hobby, but
nobody here would hesitate to call him a fine cuemaker. Right?
The fact that someone bought Willee's last cue as soon as they laid an eye
on it, tells me that the cue is as nice in person as it is in the pictures.
Now, how the cue plays is an entirely different story. I trust Willee to be
honest enough to inform us if the buyer is going to have any negative
feedback as to cue's quality.
As far as Southwest cues go, I believe that their popularity has to do a lot
with untimely and tragic death of Jerry Franklin. We all know what
cuemaker's death does to their cues - the values skyrocket. Another great
example is Barry Szamboti, not to say that he doesn't make amazing cues, but
the prices and wait times even when compared to other great living cuemakers
are outrageous. I think George Balabushka's family made a big mistake when
they sold the rights to Helmstetter, turning the great name into a
mass-produced parody.
Sorry for the lengthy post. All of the above are simply my $0.02. If you
feel that I am wrong, correct me - I will not be offended.
Ed Kagan
Los Angeles, CA
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020720044445...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Edward Kagan
Ed Kagan
Los Angeles, CA
"Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Ajd_8.61014$88.10...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Jimbo Ct
>they don't know they have this option
They don't have this option from many production line cues. If you ordered it
they may make it but it would cost you, and if you wanted to spend more chances
are you wouldn't be buying that cue.
ED: >I do consider JP cues as fine as they are to be production cues
You and everyone else with a brain. No worms opened.
ED:>As far as definition of a "cuemaker", this topic has been discussed here in
>detail
Not really
ED: >My opinion is that
>since Willee is making cues, he is a cuemaker
I've made a cue, I am not a cuemaker, Are people who do operations all doctors?
Are people who cook all chefs?? People can call themselves what ever they want,
that don't make it true. If you knew and followed the time line before the ego
thing I'm sure you'd agree. If you ran out and bought a lathe tomorrow and
started putting wood together would you call yourself a cue maker?
ED: >there are always
>going to be good cuemakers, bad cuemakers, accomplished cuemakers
Please give me your definitions of these, what would make someone a bad
cuemaker? How bout an accomplished one? I get the beginning one, that may be
based on time I guess, but where would you draw a line? Would it be time or
amount of cues?
ED: >Do you have to make cues for a living to qualify as a
>cuemaker?
No, in my mind it's about knowledge, not time in or production numbers, it's
experience and knowledge. If someone spent 5 years doing repair work and
working in a cue shop and someone else bought a lathe and a book I'd say there
was a difference between them wouldn't you? What would you call the difference?
Are both cuemakers?
ED: >Murrey Tucker makes cues as a hobby, but
>nobody here would hesitate to call him a fine cuemaker. Right?
Why not? Who would call him fine? You just did, so let me ask you what do you
base this on? Do you have one of his cues? Have you played with one? Have you
even ever laid eyes on one in person? I'm not bashing Murray, I just want to
know how you would come upon the description of fine.
ED: >The fact that someone bought Willee's last cue as soon as they laid an eye
>on it
I have no proof of this, except his word, and he has lied to me many times in
the past. What would you say about the fact that the cue was on E-bay and got
not 1 bid? I'm not saying the cue was or wasn't nice I'm just asking how come
you ignore the facts for hearsay.
ED: >I trust Willee to be
>honest enough to inform us if the buyer is going to have any negative
>feedback as to cue's quality.
I trust that a person who is a friend who bought the cue very cheap would
understand it's not great because the guy "Is just learning" and he may ignore
some flaws. I'm also sure he wouldn't tell us if it fell apart in a month, why
should he?
ED: >I believe that their popularity has to do a lot
>with untimely and tragic death of Jerry Franklin.
I ordered my first SW back in 92, I got it after Jerry died, I'd have to say
you are wrong. The fact that the list is getting longer (time wise) may have to
do with Jerry's death and the lack of someone helping out in the shop, you just
can't hire a new guy how has 20+ years experience in the cue making business,
production has slowed considerably over the last 8 years.
ED: >We all know what
>cuemaker's death does to their cues - the values skyrocket.
Not at all the case with SW. But again I think you are way off on this, maybe
if the cues were Franklin cues you'd be right, but they are SW cues and they
are still in production, this is not the case with all your examples.
ED: >Another great
>example is Barry Szamboti, not to say that he doesn't make amazing cues, but
>the prices and wait times even when compared to other great living cuemakers
Some do consider his work to be great, also he's been in very poor health and
his production is very low do to health and a one man shop. If George
Balabushka had no family willing to try to carry on the business how would
selling his name rights be a poor move? No matter how bad the production line
is the cash is still in the family's bank.
ED: >If you
>feel that I am wrong, correct me - I will not be offended.
I did, I hope not.
Jim <------Just my $ .02
Hugh(LCS)
J. Pechauer Custom Cues!
made in the USA!
--
The General
RH Arnold
Edward Kagan <odes...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:i_L_8.2$1d1.4...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Texas Willee
You haven't been voicing the virtues of JP cues in a while.
Have you found something else to play with or just giving your attention to
some other activity?
Texas Willee
Texas Willee
> Willy: >It is just smart marketing
>
Jimbo> Smart marketing????Can you please elaborate on this, please show or
tell me
> where they advertised or what marketing they did.
I could but I wont, cause you would just aurgue about it for the sake of
argument.
You show me where they did not.
(I want facts, figures, and dates. Sworn affidavits would be nice also.)
> Willy: > I could not duplicate it.
>
Jimbo> Why not?
Cause I don't have the skill, knowledge, equipment, or desire to do so.
Even if I had all those things and did it ..... you would knock it.
Do my cues have flaws? Yes, all cues have flaws.
Will they fall apart in time? Yes, all cues will even if they are made of
stone.
I have the knowledge, Jimbo It is all in books and shared information.
What? You don't believe books can teach people things?
I don't know it ALL but I do know where to find the answers to any problem
that come up.
If you really want to see the quality that is built into the cues I make
(regardless of the amount or lack of it) you need to come down and see them
built in person. Or buy one.
You cant talk about something you have never seen.
Isn't that what you just told Ed in a post to him?
Let me quote you:
Jimbo> "Who would call him fine? You just did, so let me ask you what do you
base this on? Do you have one of his cues? Have you played with one? Have
you
even ever laid eyes on one in person?"
Does your same logic not apply to you?
No amount of photos or words will ever convince you that I can take the same
wood, use the same tools, apply the same construction methods using the same
materials, and build a cue as solid as anyone else. Facts are facts and
words are just words. I have the ability, equipment, materials, and the
cues, you only have the words.
Now if you have me make you a cue ... well, then you could speak with first
hand knowledge instead of your greatly biased and groundless assumptions
that are based upon words alone.
Hell ..... I would even cut you a great deal on a fine, custom, one of a
kind, Willee Cue.
Texas Willee
Edward Kagan
I've seen JP's work and I did say that they are fine cues. Who cares
whether they are production or custom.
Ed
"Hugh(LCS)" <rh...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:iMP_8.547$gU1.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Edward Kagan
ordered it
> they may make it but it would cost you, and if you wanted to spend more
chances
> are you wouldn't be buying that cue.
I agree - that's what I said. My argument was about time, but money
certainly applies as well.
>
> ED: >I do consider JP cues as fine as they are to be production cues
>
>JIMBO: You and everyone else with a brain. No worms opened.
I'm glad you agree.
> ED:>As far as definition of a "cuemaker", this topic has been discussed
here in
> >detail
>
> JIMBO: Not really
>
I believe I've seen a few heated discussions, mostly between you and Texas
Willee.
> ED: >My opinion is that
> >since Willee is making cues, he is a cuemaker
>
> JIMBO: I've made a cue, I am not a cuemaker, Are people who do operations
all doctors?
I sure hope so.
> Are people who cook all chefs?? People can call themselves what ever they
want,
> that don't make it true. If you knew and followed the time line before the
ego
> thing I'm sure you'd agree. If you ran out and bought a lathe tomorrow and
> started putting wood together would you call yourself a cue maker?
Probably not, but if Willee chooses to call himself one, I have no
objections.
>
> ED: >there are always
> >going to be good cuemakers, bad cuemakers, accomplished cuemakers
>
> JIMBO: Please give me your definitions of these, what would make someone a
bad
> cuemaker? How bout an accomplished one? I get the beginning one, that may
be
> based on time I guess, but where would you draw a line? Would it be time
or
> amount of cues?
>
Well, I think this is subjective. One man's gold..... As far as being an
accomplished cuemaker, it is probably a matter of time, recognition,
originality, leadership in the field, etc.
> ED: >Do you have to make cues for a living to qualify as a
> >cuemaker?
>
> JIMBO: No, in my mind it's about knowledge, not time in or production
numbers, it's
> experience and knowledge. If someone spent 5 years doing repair work and
> working in a cue shop and someone else bought a lathe and a book I'd say
there
> was a difference between them wouldn't you? What would you call the
difference?
> Are both cuemakers?
>
You said the guy spent 5 years repairing cues, nothing about making cues.
But assuming he has been making cues for 5 years and someone else bought a
lathe and a book - yes, there is a difference. Are they both cuemakers?
Sure, why not. One is more experienced than the other. One may produce
better quality work than the other. However, assume for a moment, that the
guy just starting out uncovers his great talent and becomes the next Stroud,
Schick or Black. In 2-3 years he can accomplish more than the first guy in
5, or in his lifetime for that matter.
> ED: >Murrey Tucker makes cues as a hobby, but
> >nobody here would hesitate to call him a fine cuemaker. Right?
>
> JIMBO: Why not? Who would call him fine? You just did, so let me ask you
what do you
> base this on? Do you have one of his cues? Have you played with one? Have
you
> even ever laid eyes on one in person? I'm not bashing Murray, I just want
to
> know how you would come upon the description of fine.
>
None of the above - I've never laid eyes on Murray's cues in person, nor
have I ever played with one. However, I am yet to see a negative comment
about his work - all his customers praised his quality, communication,
customer service. In my book that qualifies him as a fine cuemaker. I
don't think I would want to order a cue, no matter how great from a guy that
would constantly lie to me and give me runarounds. What do you think?
> ED: >The fact that someone bought Willee's last cue as soon as they laid
an eye
> >on it
>
> JIMBO: I have no proof of this, except his word, and he has lied to me
many times in
> the past. What would you say about the fact that the cue was on E-bay and
got
> not 1 bid? I'm not saying the cue was or wasn't nice I'm just asking how
come
> you ignore the facts for hearsay.
>
I know there is a lengthy history between you and TW. Personally, I do not
have a reason not to believe his statements. The fact that one of his cues
(not this one) did not sell on E-bay does not mean anything. I would not
buy a cue from someone I have never heard of. Being a member of this group,
reading Willee's posts, following his progress is one thing. Seeing a cue
from some Joe Blow on E-bay is completely different. There are now cues on
E-bay being sold by Phillipino cuemakers (gosh, here we go again, are they
really cuemakers?). They are tacky, but they are cheap, some of them
sporting lots of ivory. Would you buy one? Probably not, me neither. But
for all we know, they could be nice, decent quality cues. Now TW's last cue
(according to him) was bought by a local player, who knows Willee
personally, can judge his character and the likeness of him standing behind
his cues. He also got a chance to see the cue in person. As a matter of
fact, all I implied in my original post that the cue must be as good looking
in person as it was in the pictures. I still say that I like the way that
this cue looks. Also, if you think Willee is lying, why when I offered to
buy or at least bid on the cue, he didn't jump at the chance to sell it to
me, but simply stated that the cue was already sold? Doesn't make sense,
does it?
> ED: >I trust Willee to be
> >honest enough to inform us if the buyer is going to have any negative
> >feedback as to cue's quality.
>
>JIMBO: I trust that a person who is a friend who bought the cue very cheap
would
> understand it's not great because the guy "Is just learning" and he may
ignore
> some flaws. I'm also sure he wouldn't tell us if it fell apart in a month,
why
> should he?
>
You think he won't, I think he will. Only time will show. Personally, I
consider all statements to be true until proven otherwise, and like I said,
I have no reasons to mistrust TW.
> ED: >I believe that their popularity has to do a lot
> >with untimely and tragic death of Jerry Franklin.
>
>JIMBO: I ordered my first SW back in 92, I got it after Jerry died, I'd
have to say
> you are wrong. The fact that the list is getting longer (time wise) may
have to
> do with Jerry's death and the lack of someone helping out in the shop, you
just
> can't hire a new guy how has 20+ years experience in the cue making
business,
> production has slowed considerably over the last 8 years.
>
Could this have anything to do with them simply trying to limit supply in
order to keep prices high? I think I agree with Willee on this one - they
are GREAT business people.
> ED: >We all know what
> >cuemaker's death does to their cues - the values skyrocket.
>
> JIMBO: Not at all the case with SW. But again I think you are way off on
this, maybe
> if the cues were Franklin cues you'd be right, but they are SW cues and
they
> are still in production, this is not the case with all your examples.
>
I think Jerry Franklin era cues fetch a high premium these days when
compared to modern Southwests? Or am I off on this one? As far as current
success, I attribute it to company's ability to convince the public that
their cues are as good as Jerry's. I simply do not believe that this is
possible. Like you said, you cannot replace a guy with 20+ years experience
in the cuemaking business. Besides, I am a strong believer in the fact that
cues inherit their character from the maker (I'm not talking about junk
assembled in Asia). Therfore, part of Southwest cues' character died with
Jerry.
As far as your argument to Willee about duplicating SW's. To your
knowledge, do Southwest Cues have any patents on any proprietary processes
or materials (glues, etc.)? If not, that in theory their cues can be
duplicated. However, even is someone manages to build an identical cue, I
doubt that they will be able to enjoy as much success - Jerry Franklin's
legacy cannot be duplicated. Coker cues are compared to Southwest by many
people in terms of hit and feel. But they sell for less than half - no wait
either as far as I know. We tend to think that Jerry's family can keep
making cues that are as good as the originals. We think that Barry can make
cues that are as good as Gus's. Maybe it's true. My point is that someone
else, who doesn't have the same last name, can do it too. We simply don't
put as much trust in them.
> ED: >Another great
> >example is Barry Szamboti, not to say that he doesn't make amazing cues,
but
> >the prices and wait times even when compared to other great living
cuemakers
>
>JIMBO: Some do consider his work to be great, also he's been in very poor
health and
> his production is very low do to health and a one man shop. If George
> Balabushka had no family willing to try to carry on the business how would
> selling his name rights be a poor move? No matter how bad the production
line
> is the cash is still in the family's bank.
>
I think it was a poor move in terms of feeding a legendary cuemaker's name
to rabid dogs. To this generation, the name "Balabushka" is associated with
a great deal of American cuesports' history. To next it will become a line
of Asian junk, models GB-1 through GB-17 (or whatever the heck it is).
> ED: >If you
> >feel that I am wrong, correct me - I will not be offended.
>
> I did, I hope not.
>
I am not offended at all. I respect your opinions as I hope you respect
mine.
> Jim <------Just my $ .02
>
Ed <-----we now have $.04 in the bank.
Hugh(LCS)
East, Mr. Fred Agnir!
hehe
--
The General
RH Arnold
Texas Willee <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mbT_8.159300$eF5.4...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Chas
> ED:>As far as definition of a "cuemaker", this topic has been discussed here in
> >detail
> Not really
Well; let's.
> I've made a cue, I am not a cuemaker,
Sure you are- but, that's not all.
> Are people who do operations all doctors?
No, but they are all operators.
> Are people who cook all chefs??
no, but they're all cooks.
> People can call themselves what ever they want,
> that don't make it true.
An artist is always self-named first.
> If you ran out and bought a lathe tomorrow and
> started putting wood together would you call yourself a cue maker?
Sure.
The next word would be 'new' cuemaker, or 'novice cuemaker'.
Bill Schick's first cue was a booger-ooger. He trained under Ed
Prudhomme, a national treasure. His first effort had a couple of
decades of very rigorous preparation behind it. The association of
previously known skills transferring to 'cuemaking' happened
immediately.
> ........what would make someone a bad cuemaker?
Bad cues; or a depraved lifestyle <g>
> How bout an accomplished one? I get the beginning one, that may be
> based on time I guess, but where would you draw a line? Would it be time or
> amount of cues?
The cue.
Everything stands alone- it is either a good cue or a bad one.
If he made one, he can probably make two.
And so it goes.
> No, in my mind it's about knowledge, not time in or production numbers, it's
> experience and knowledge. If someone spent 5 years doing repair work and
> working in a cue shop and someone else bought a lathe and a book I'd say there
> was a difference between them wouldn't you? What would you call the difference?
> Are both cuemakers?
Yes.
One may very well be a 'good' cuemaker, and the other a 'novice
cuemaker'- Fifteen years as a gun engraver might well prepare one to
buy a lathe and a book- as might a background in a number of other
occupations.
> I have no proof of this, except his word, and he has lied to me many times in
> the past.
You know, that's a very harsh word- and tends to block out anything
that comes after it. When you call a man a 'liar'- particularly over
something inconsequential or picayune, it says more about you than it
does about him. It's a personal word, Jim, and should be said to a
man's face *first*- then you can say it in public- you know, after
your mouth heals.
> What would you say about the fact that the cue was on E-bay and got
> not 1 bid? I'm not saying the cue was or wasn't nice I'm just asking how come
> you ignore the facts for hearsay.
You ignore the fact that many things on eBay don't get a bid. Even
within the eBay 'community', they're talking about the disappearance
of discretionary money.
Who knows why?
> ED: >We all know what
> >cuemaker's death does to their cues - the values skyrocket.
> Not at all the case with SW.
poop.
People describe their cues by the 'era'- and they ask premiums/take
bragging rights based on that.
And it's utterly incorrect not to recognize that values immediately
*triple* in every class of Fine Art when the oeuvre is closed. It's
hard to standardize prices on fine art until the artist is no longer
capable of producing any more.
> ED: >Another great
> >example is Barry Szamboti, not to say that he doesn't make amazing cues, but
> >the prices and wait times even when compared to other great living cuemakers
> Some do consider his work to be great, also he's been in very poor health and
> his production is very low do to health and a one man shop.
Bang!
Bring your wallet.
Family lineage is important in every aspect of the Art World- look at
Paloma Picasso, Mariel Hemingway, the Gracie Family, the Singers. One
expects the son to work at the level of the family standard. There
will be fewer cues ahead than behind, and garnering *any* example of
his work is becoming more and more improbable as the years pass- God
love him and grant him decades more-
This also speaks to the 'sole-authorship' question, the 'bench-made'
question, the 'bespoke' question; as well as the 'small production
facility'.
In many ways, you live in a 'Golden Age' of cuemaking. Some of the
most outrageous stuff *ever made* is being made right now. The choice
is no longer between a poor cue and a good one, it's between a good
and a very good/better/best.
And, the price for the application of technical skills in a well
outfitted shop by an intelligent and skillful human being are just
going to go up, not down.
Jimbo Ct
of
>argument.
I argue when I feel I am right, I argue cause it's fun, I argue cause that's
what we do here. If you want yes men find some other place to post your blatant
adds.
Willy: >You show me where they did not.
>(I want facts, figures, and dates.
I have no need for facts figures and dates, the truth is Southwest doesn't
sponser tours they don't advertise in magazines, they don't have a web-site,
and they don't do trade shows. The marketing you speak of is not there. They do
not hold back production to create a demand because they don't benefit from
that. Anyone from this group can call and get on the list right now, they don't
take deposits, so they only make money when they build and sell the cues, as a
matter of fact they limit people to how many cues they can order, if they
didn't who knows how bad the secondary market would be or how long the list
would be. You can claim I pick on you but the fact is once again your talking
shit about something you know little about.
Willy: >Cause I don't have the skill, knowledge, equipment, or desire to do so.
>Even if I had all those things and did it ..... you would knock it.
You keep ignoring facts and crying about this. This is all in your head it's a
made up argument that must make you feel picked on and like the underdog. Try
to follow along Willy, I don't ever insult your cues, just you and your ego.
Willy: >Yes, all cues have flaws.
Some more then others, that's what gives one maker a better name then another.
Willy: >I have the knowledge, Jimbo It is all in books and shared information.
>What? You don't believe books can teach people things?
Sure it can teach you everything but experience and to me that's a HUGH one. I
guess to you it's just the knowledge that matters. Anyone can write a book you
know, and books have mistakes in them. But rather then tackle that I'll repeat
it's all about experience.
Willy: >I don't know it ALL but I do know where to find the answers to any
problem
>that come up.
Doubtful, but trying to learn is a start and I've always given you credit for
that.
Willy: >If you really want to see the quality that is built into the cues I
make
I don't care about your cues or the quality, I don't care to see it and I'll
never order one, but that's a nice try at a sale. Again you keep trying to
change what I am all about you keep claiming I trash your cues and anyone who
can read knows it's a lie. I trash you, I trash that you call yourself a
cuemaker a few months after buying a lathe, I trash that you continue to post
how easy it is to build a quality cue. I trash you and your ego. If you can't
separate the 2 then I guess you will continue to read it as an insult on your
work.
Willy: >you need to come down and see them
>built in person.
Why??? If I watched you work it would never change the fact that you lack
experience and the knowledge that comes from it. I applaud your efforts to
learn the craft, I'm sure if you stick with it you'll eventually learn to be a
good cuemaker and like all the others you'll look back at your early work and
laugh.
Willy: >Or buy one
Maybe in 10 years you have a chance.
Willy: >You cant talk about something you have never seen.
I don't, again stop trying to twist this into a different argument. Leave your
work out of it, we are talking about you as a person and your giant inflated
ego, along with your idiotic quotes and beliefs that all you need is a book to
do things well. Back when you first came to this group (before you knew it all)
You had the right idea, you asked for info on lathes and for people to send you
broken cues so you could learn about cues from doing repairs, what ever
happened to that guy???????????
Willy: >Does your same logic not apply to you?
Yes it does and that's why you can't show any of my posts where I trashed your
work, other then stuff I can see like rounded inlays, and I even trash real
cuemakers for that.
Willy: >No amount of photos or words will ever convince you that I can take the
same
>wood, use the same tools, apply the same construction methods using the same
>materials, and build a cue as solid as anyone else.
And I guess no matter how many times I point out a lack of experience and
working knowledge will make you be able to follow what I am saying. I have been
consistent with my words here about you, the only thing you have been
consistent about is not reading them.
Willy: > I have the ability, equipment, materials, and the
>cues, you only have the words.
Yes this is true, but we are on the internet and all that matters here are the
words, take a minute and try to read them.
Willy: >Now if you have me make you a cue ... well, then you could speak with
first
>hand knowledge instead of your greatly biased and groundless assumptions
Now you're just begging. Thanx but no thanx, I'm not interested in your cues.
You call it an assumption but it's a fact, you just don't have the experience
that I am comfortable with when it comes to buying a cue, I own a few cues that
I'm not that happy with already and those were made by guys that read the same
books you read and who have been building cues for much longer then you.
Willy: > I would even cut you a great deal on a fine, custom, one of a
>kind
WOW now it's just getting sad.
Jim <---------Experience
Patrick Johnson
> made in the USA!
You're a production cue company groupie?
(Do you drive past the factory at night?)
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Jeffrey Weiss
Jimbo>> Smart marketing????Can you please elaborate on this, please show
>> or tell me where they advertised or what marketing they did.
Willy> I could but I wont,...You show me where they did not. (I want
> facts, figures, and dates. Sworn affidavits would be nice also.)
How 'bout this: I've never in my life seen an ad for Southwest cues.
I swear to it.
Willy>>> I could not duplicate it.
Jimbo>> Why not?
Willy> Cause I don't have the skill, knowledge, equipment, or desire
> to do so.
> ...
> No amount of photos or words will ever convince you that I can
> take the same wood, use the same tools, apply the same
> construction methods using the same materials, and build a cue as
> solid as anyone else....I have the ability, equipment, materials,
> and the cues, you only have the words.
Er, which is it? Do you have the ability, equipment, etc. or don't you?
--
jw
Smorgass Bored
Some more then (should be THAN) others, that's what gives one maker a
better name then (should be THAN) another.
But rather then (should be THAN) tackle that I'll repeat it's all about
experience.
If you can't separate the 2 then (CORRECT, finally) I guess you will
continue to read it as an insult on your work.
Yes it does and that's why you can't show any of my posts where I
trashed your work, other then (oy-vey, it should be THAN) stuff I can
see like rounded inlays
And I guess no matter how many times I point out a lack of experience
and working knowledge will make you be able to follow what I am saying.
( (*<~And I guess that no matter how many times I call you an idiot and
an asshole, you will continue to write 'then' and 'manors')
I have been consistent with my words here about you ( Me TOO)
Yes this is true, but we are on the internet and all that matters here
are the words (no shit Sherlock, try to get 'some' correct)
Jim <---------Experience
Doug<------- I doubt it
If you spelled all your 'then's' as THAN, you'd be right more often
and the same applies if spelled 'manors' as manners.
You are a big dumb buffoon (I hope that I spelled all that correctly).
I am just an casual observer....
Texas Willee
I said I could not duplicate one.
I said I could make one just as solid.
I see no conflect here.
Did you read something different into it, Jeff?
Texas Willee
"Jeffrey Weiss" <Jeffre...@gs.com> wrote in message
news:d50f5c27.02072...@posting.google.com...
Bradley E. Robertson
Ed says
> I know there is a lengthy history between you and TW. Personally, I do
not
> have a reason not to believe his statements.
Ed, I believe Thomas Wayne, cue maker, has a copyright on "TW" especially
with regard to long histories between newsgroup members.
Brad . . . who thinks it should be TW©
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020722144228...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Jimbo> If you want yes men find some other place to post your blatant
adds.
LOL .... Boy Howdy .... now that is a rich one.
I sure am one blatent salesman aint I.
Har-de har har!
Hey everyone ... Buy a Willee Cue!
(if you can find one)
Thanks for the belly laugh, I havent done that in a while.
Next you will be calling me a production cuemaker.
<Snip>
Jimbo> I own a few cues that
> I'm not that happy with already and those were made by guys that read the
same
> books you read and who have been building cues for much longer then you.
Are they very slow learners or just plain unskilled with tools.
The same books I have read?
What books, Jimbo?
Some of those books you refer to have been out for less than a year.
I say you are the one that speaks a lot about what he knows not!
You rant that I do not have enough experience, imply I have learned from
sources lacking proper information, infer that any cue I could make must be
lacking the qualities you seek, then turn around and say you are not talking
about the cues I build? Jimbo, you are the one that has things twisted
around not me.
I am very clear about what I can make. You have never seen one of the cues I
have hand crafted and by your very own statements to Ed in an earlier post,
you are therefore not qualified to judge the cues or their maker.
Isn't that called hypocrisy?
If someone offers to sell you a Willee Cue check with me before you whip out
the cash cauze I have heard rumors that there are already fake Willees
floating about. It would be best to buy one at the source and be sure it was
a real Willee you are getting.
Texas Willee < ... original and genuwine Willee cuemaker.
Texas Willee
Willee, but they still do.
Hope it does not confuse anyone as to just who is who.
Thomas Wayne ... Established maker of fine quality pool cues.
Texas Willee .... Just another want-to-be ... for now.
Texas Willee
"Bradley E. Robertson" <br...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:ujos343...@corp.supernews.com...
Jimbo Ct
The fact is I've laughed at him calling himself a cuemaker after a few months
of owning a lathe and making a few sneaky petes, he's always argues that I was
making fun of his work and his cues.
Ed: >As far as being an
>accomplished cuemaker, it is probably a matter of time, recognition,
>originality, leadership in the field, etc.
My point exactly, but willy will argue that it's not hard and he makes a solid
cue. Of course he likes to use his definitions, and he's a guy who was happy
after a week of testing for a new ferrule material.
Ed:>You said the guy spent 5 years repairing cues, nothing about making cues.
The point was Ed after working with cues and repairing them you get a feel for
construction techniques and what works and what doesn't, these are things no
book will teach you, it's trial and error and learning from experience. Time
matters.
ED: > the
>guy just starting out uncovers his great talent and becomes the next Stroud,
>Schick or Black. In 2-3 years he can accomplish more than the first guy in
>5, or in his lifetime for that matter.
This could be true, but it wouldn't be discovered until he had built up a body
of work. People are never judged by the first part of their careers they are
judged by the body of work they produce after years of doing it. Do you believe
that Black or Stroud walked around and said cue making is easy, I'll be the
next (fill in the blank) after building their first 10 cues?
Ed: >I've never laid eyes on Murray's cues in person, nor
>have I ever played with one. However, I am yet to see a negative comment
My question wasn't meant as a knock on Murray, I have played with his cues and
met him personally, I like him and his work, but I wouldn't hold it up to the
work of guys like Richard Black or Bill Stroud and he wouldn't either, I'm sure
he wouldn't take these comments as an insult. I also wouldn't hold Willy's work
up to Murray's, the difference is Willy will take that as an insult.
ED: >all his customers praised his quality, communication,
>customer service. In my book that qualifies him as a fine cuemaker.
Keep in mind the world of cues is odd, people judge cues by what they know,
people talk about cues in terms of how much they spend. People don't look at
the whole picture, some people think Pechauer are the best, those people have
never owned or even seen a Ginacue, if your whole life you've owned a Meucci I
can see where you'd fall in love with a Pechauer, until you move up from there.
The praise doesn't take in to account the term for the price, but it's kind of
implied.
Ed: >What do you think?
About what?
Ed:>I know there is a lengthy history between you and TW. Personally, I do not
>have a reason not to believe his statements.
Well you can choose to believe who you like, I'm not here to try to sway that,
but anything I say he's lied about has been right here in public. MM lies all
the time but people still choose to believe him also, they aren't on the same
level when it comes to lies but I don't have any trouble calling a spade a
spade.
Ed: >The fact that one of his cues
>(not this one) did not sell on E-bay does not mean anything.
Yeah it means a lot but in my example it was just a shot at him because he's
always saying I'm not making my cues to sell, yet he put it on an auction. I
guess if you don't see the irony in that I can't show it to you. Also it means
that everyone who says that his prices are way to low (his words) are
hypocrites, along with the many here who think it's a good cue, he linked it to
this group, he advertised it and everyone knew how to find it, if they really
liked it they could have bought it. I'd love to see people buy the cue, I'd
love to see some one from here buy it and give a review, it's just not going to
be me, even if I did like the cue and bought it I couldn't give any bad review
because people would think I was biased.
ED: >I still say that I like the way that
>this cue looks.
Why didn't you bid on it?
ED: > if you think Willee is lying, why when I offered to
>buy or at least bid on the cue, he didn't jump at the chance to sell it to
>me, but simply stated that the cue was already sold? Doesn't make sense,
>does it?
Well it makes sense if you think he was lying because then he'd have to admit
he was, also I don't doubt he sold it, but I would question the price he gave
(if he gave one) I know of many new cuemakers who build nice cues who can't
give them away because they have no name, and it's all about the name. Selling
cues is all about the name, first you need to build a good cue then you have to
build a following all this takes time, and 1 year isn't long enough.
ED: >I have no reasons to mistrust TW.
That statement is funny to me, if you knew a person had lied to other people
would you still trust him until he lied to you?? If this is true I hope you
don't get burned to bad down the road.
Ed: >Could this have anything to do with them simply trying to limit supply in
>order to keep prices high?
No, if you knew anything about the people at SW you'd know this is a dumb idea.
Laurie is one of the most honest people I know, they have low prices. If SW
wanted to make money they would sell cues on the secondary market where they
could jack them up %50 right off the bat, they don't they sell to the list in
the order you get put on it and they sell the cues at the price they were when
you put your name on the list. A $1,400 cue from SW today can sell in 3 days on
E-bay for 1,800, it would be very easy for them to ignore the list and sell
cues on E-bay under a fake name for more profit, this isn't their way.
Ed: >I agree with Willee on this one - they
>are GREAT business people.
That's the problem, they are great people and they are great cuemakers, as far
as business goes I think there is a few things they could do that wouldn't piss
anyone off that would make them extra money, they choose not to do things this
way.
Ed: >I think Jerry Franklin era cues fetch a high premium these days when
>compared to modern Southwests?
Not so, as a matter of fact some new cues sell for more because people like the
cactus and the number on the pin and others like NEW cues. There are people who
prefer older Jerry cues, but the prices aren't that different.
ED: >I attribute it to company's ability to convince the public that
>their cues are as good as Jerry's.
They never tried to convince anyone of anything, all they did was continue to
make a quality cue and let word of mouth do all the work.
Ed: >Like you said, you cannot replace a guy with 20+ years experience
>in the cuemaking business. Besides, I am a strong believer in the fact that
>cues inherit their character from the maker
Again if you understood me the first time you would follow this better,
Southwest cues are SW cues, they are not made by 1 person. This is a major
difference between SW and Balabushka or Szambodi cues, when Gus and George died
so did there business, SW is more of a group effort, the guys in the shop all
do different jobs, Jerry did his part in that group, he didn't build the cue
from start to finish by himself. Of course when Jerry died they lost a valuable
part of the operation, but with a well trained staff they continued to do
things the same way they always did after he was gone.
Ed: >As far as your argument to Willee about duplicating SW's
His words, not mine. He said he could do it, I just said if he could why
wouldn't he? Again it takes years of quality to do what they do, not a lathe.
It all comes back to my original thoughts, time and experience builds a cue,
good cues over years builds a name and a name is what sells. IF willy could
make a cue EXACTLY the same (in every way) as a SW he still couldn't get $2,000
for it, but if he did it for 3-5 years and the word spread he may be able to
get that price in a few years, nothing to do with adds and web-sites.
ED: >o your
>knowledge, do Southwest Cues have any patents on any proprietary processes
>or materials
No, but they do have secrets picked up over years of experience and techniques
developed by Jerry and David that they wouldn't share with other cue makers. SW
is one of the most copied cues in the world, many try but none have been able
to match there cues, if it were so easy (as willy would have you believe)
people would be doing it.
Ed: >in theory their cues can be
>duplicated. However, even is someone manages to build an identical cue
As I said many are trying.
Ed: >Coker cues are compared to Southwest by many
>people in terms of hit and feel.
I've owned one and hit with others, it's just not true, but they are just one
in a long line of the copy cats. people who by them would love to believe that
they are the same, the truth is if they were they'd have a better name and they
would demand a higher price, it's word of mouth, not marketing.
Ed: >We tend to think that Jerry's family can keep
>making cues that are as good as the originals.
You keep saying Jerry's family and I keep telling you it's Southwest cues, it's
a shop of cuemakers who have been making cues for a long time, they all work
together and they worked and learned how from jerry.
Ed: >We think that Barry can make
>cues that are as good as Gus's. Maybe it's true.
Who is we? I have never believed this, Barry may make cues better then Gus, but
Gus is dead and that's one major reason why his cues produce such high prices.
The day after Gus died barry didn't keep making his cues and filling his
orders, Gus's cues were Gus's and Barry's are Barry's, 2 different entities,
it's not comparable to the SW story.
ED: >My point is that someone
>else, who doesn't have the same last name, can do it too. We simply don't
>put as much trust in them.
Jerry's last name was Franklin, the cue company is Southwest, it went on after
Kersh left and it goes on today after Jerry's death. The quality is still there
and Jerry is missed very much.
Jim <----Add another $.02
Jimbo Ct
>I said I could make one just as solid.
LOL What the fuck does that mean??? I believe it may be the other way around,
I'm pretty sure you could copy one (duplicate it) right down to the number on
the pin and the cactus.
Jim <---What does solid mean?
Jimbo Ct
God bless you and God Speed, This is the first thing you have ever said that
leads me to believe there is hope for you. I wish you all the best in your
endevors.
jim <---Wishes *this* willy good luck
Jimbo Ct
In many posts you say your cues aren't for sale yet you post links to auctions
selling them. Which is it? You post pictures of every cue you make, you've
received cue orders from doing this, what good is your posts with pictures to
your cues doing me as a news group reader?
Willy: >Thanks for the belly laugh, I havent done that in a while.
That's to bad, I feel for you. You are welcome.
Willy: >Are they very slow learners or just plain unskilled with tools.
They are newbies who don't yet understand what it takes to be a cuemaker. Maybe
they bought wood on e-bay and had no idea if it was ready for use in a cue and
it warped, not their fault is it?? LOL
Willy: >The same books I have read?
>What books,
I don't think it's any secret your studying under Chris hightowers book is it?
Willy:>I say you are the one that speaks a lot about what he knows not!
I know all about Chris's book, you know it is for sale to anyone who wants to
buy it right?
Willy: >You rant that I do not have enough experience
Am I wrong?
Willy: > imply I have learned from
>sources lacking proper information
I imply??? I don't imply Willy I come right out and say you lack experience,
it's a fact IMO, it's not implied.
Willy: >infer that any cue I could make must be
>lacking the qualities you seek,
The qualities I seek??? I seek a cuemaker with a clue and some experience, from
your words and the facts I have come to a conclusion that you lack both, again
I'm saying it not implying it.
Willy: > then turn around and say you are not talking
>about the cues I build?
I'm not I'm talking about this TexAss Willy character you have invented for
this use. He lacks any true cue maker experience, but after the last post I see
hope for him, I do feel he is learning quickly.
Willy: >mbo, you are the one that has things twisted
>around not me.
I feel I am very consistent, kinda like a broken record if you ask many here
who can read.
Willy:>You have never seen one of the cues I
>have hand crafted and by your very own statements to Ed in an earlier post,
Not the whole truth, but let's just say I did and I felt like bashing your
work. It would be blamed on some sort of made up hatred of you, even if I
admitted to seeing and playing with one of your cues it would be pointless to
talk about it, would you agree.
Willy: >you are therefore not qualified to judge the cues or their maker.
>Isn't that called hypocrisy?
Again what if I owned one, and bashed it. Would that matter? What would be the
point? Please tell me how you disagree with my point that you have very little
experience, and that you are in the learning stages.
Willy: >If someone offers to sell you a Willee Cue check with me before you
whip out
>the cash
Are you %100 sure I don't own one?
Jim<---Wishes willy good luck
Jimbo Ct
I see you're in your weekly try to get JimBo to argue with me mood (I'm bored
I'll bite). You start Chas.
Chas: >An artist is always self-named first.
Everyone doodles, and they can call it what they want, but again just because
you call yourself something don't make it true. Artist for the most part are
all lazy and weird Chas ;-)
Chas: >Bill Schick's first cue was a booger-ooger
What does this mean? I don't speak artist sorry.
Chas: >He trained under Ed
>Prudhomme
Are we talking about his cues or his engraving??
Chas: >His first effort had a couple of
>decades of very rigorous preparation behind it.
Again are we talking decades of cuemaking or engraving skills?
Chas: >The cue.
>Everything stands alone- it is either a good cue or a bad one.
>If he made one, he can probably make two.
>And so it goes.
Not true at all, Many great cuemakers know that the early cues they made are
junk, just ask anyone. I've also seen junkie cues from great cuemakers, should
I judge them on the bad stuff or on their body of work over their careers? When
you get to the stage that you know why the cue is good and what parts of that
cue need to be duplicated I think you are well on your way to being a cuemaker.
When you are new and one turns out good and one sucks and it's all up to luck I
think you're in the learning stage. Do you disagree?
Chas: >Yes.
>One may very well be a 'good' cuemaker, and the other a 'novice
>cuemaker
When will you run out of adjectives Chas? How bout if I ask you to compare
Ernie Gutierrez with Willy, or Ernie with Dan Dishaw, or Ernie with Chris
Nitti. There are over 500 cuemakers can you come up with 500 adjectives or will
you place them all on the same level as cuemakers.
Chas: >Fifteen years as a gun engraver might well prepare one to
>buy a lathe and a book- as might a background in a number of other
>occupations.
15 years may earn you the money to buy a lathe but it will not give you the
knowledge or experience it takes to build good cues, Bill's early cues were not
good either, again feel free to ask any cuemaker what he thinks of the first 25
cues he made. In 3 years I'd love to hear what Willy thinks of his first 20
cues.
Chas: >You know, that's a very harsh word- and tends to block out anything
>that comes after it. When you call a man a 'liar
Lie and I'll call you a liar, see how easy it is? it's no worse a word then any
other . keep in mind slander isn't slander if it's true.
Chas: >When you call a man a 'liar'- particularly over
>something inconsequential or picayune, it says more about you than it
>does about him.
So in Chas world it's ok to tell little white lies? Who judges what lies are
inconsequential in your world Chas? I often worry about a man who has levels of
right and wrong, it's kinda like a guy who thought it was ok to kill people
cause they were just jews or people who held slaves but they were just black,
who's to say what level of right and wrong you go by?
Chas: >It's a personal word, Jim, and should be said to a
>man's face *first*- then you can say it in public- you know, after
>your mouth heals.
Yes I know all about this, I mean I would have said it right to his face if he
hadn't lied about hunting me down to give me said smash in mouth. Again Chas I
don't live in your world where you can go around smashing people in the mouth
for the words they say. If someone in my world calls me a liar I laugh at them
because it's funny and not true. Seems to me people who get mad that you called
them a liar are really just mad because you caught them in a lie. If you'd like
to try this out just start lying, then I'll call you a liar and then I'll tell
you my schedule and you'll get your chance to bash me in the mouth, maybe even
with one of your fighting sticks. But as for now I have yet to think you are
lying about anything you've said.
Chas: >You ignore the fact that many things on eBay don't get a bid.
You seem to ignore the fact that the whole point was about how Chas saz one
thing (I don't make cues to sell them) and does another (posts links to his cue
auctions) I guess you missed the point. Shocking! Also I could have brought up
the fact about so many people said (his words) that his price was to cheap.
Chas: >Who knows why?
I do
Chas: >poop.
>People describe their cues by the 'era'-
If you had any clue you'd know that newer SW's sell for just as high as older
ones and many sell for more. In the past 4 months I've seen many older (jerry
cues) sell for 1,500 and I have seen many more new ones sell for 1,800. Now
maybe people are afraid to bid on cues with out a serial number or people just
want new I have no idea, but what I do know is that Jerry era cues did not
"skyrocket" due to his death.
Chas: >And it's utterly incorrect not to recognize that values immediately
>*triple* in every class of Fine Art when the oeuvre is closed.
Once again you prove you are utterly misinformed, stick to the art world, at
least there if you have no clue I can't debate you due to my lack of knowledge.
Seems the only difference here is your not smart enough to know that you don't
know.
Chas: >It's
>hard to standardize prices on fine art until the artist is no longer
>capable of producing any more.
Yeah hard.... Jerry died in 96 (I'd like to stop talking about him God rest his
sole) and today July 22 ,2002 Southwest cues are still being made, what did I
miss? Did the price of Ford cars triple the day Henry T died?? BTW to use
another example Verl Horn died and his cues didn't even double.
Chas: >Bang!
>Bring your wallet.
>Family lineage is important in every aspect of the Art World- look at
>Paloma Picasso Mariel Hemingway, the Gracie Family
Yeah I hear some of Pablo's great grand son's work is selling for millions, get
a clue. Mariel gets work because of her grand-dad?? Gracies?? What the hell are
you talking about? Old man Gracie is still alive and the family name was made
with the start of UFC where Royce put them in the mainstream public's eye.
Don't confuse marketing with a family name.
Chas:
>In many ways, you live in a 'Golden Age' of cuemaking.
Wrong again, in many ways we live in an era that allows people who have no clue
how to BUILD a cue to do elaborate work and sell it as art. A cue is a cue,
it's built to play pool if it doesn't have the characteristics to play well I
don't give a shit about the art in it, I play pool, I want a cue.
Chas: >Some of the
>most outrageous stuff *ever made* is being made right now.
Thomas Wayne made the most outrageous stuff ever made back in the 90's, he's
not building cues right now and hasn't for the past 4 years, nobody has come
close to his stuff since.
Chas: >he choice
>is no longer between a poor cue and a good one, it's between a good
>and a very good/better/best.
Again you keep inventing adjectives, pretty soon it will be
Very,very,very,very,very,very good was that 5 very's?? Your wrong Chas BUILDING
a cue is an art, the art in the cue isn't what matters, and that's what's wrong
with the buying public today. If you want to run out and buy the pretties cue
you can find for the money you'll do fine if you hang it on your wall, but if
you want to play pool I suggest you buy a cue that's made well and built by a
cuemaker with some experience. People wonder why Ginacues are 5k and up, what
they miss is that Ernie has the knowledge to BUILD a great cue and the SKILL to
make it a piece of art, it's not an accident.
Chas: >he price for the application of technical skills in a well
>outfitted shop by an intelligent and skillful human being are just
>going to go up, not down.
Nope, there will always be people who learn to build a cue and then work on the
art part and the ones who just want to pump out pretty wood. One will last the
other will not. Time tells all and I don't care how well you can run a CNC if
your cues suck you'll be out of business soon. I don't expect you to understand
any of what I wrote because I don't think you are a pool player, but I guess I
respect some of what you write when it comes to the art world.
Jim <---Not in the art world.
PS this was very long I hope Smug has the time and the beer to get threw it all
and correct my grammar
Texas Willee
What do you mean by solid?
Explain yourself, Jimbo.
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020722175130...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Texas Willee
BTY: Do you really need to inject your sarcastic remarks to every post I
make?
Didn't you call be jealous and accuse me of doing the same thing?
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020722181306...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> Willy: >I sure am one blatent salesman aint I.
>
auctions
> selling them. Which is it?
They are all for sale, Jimbo.
There ... that clears that up once and for all.
Wanta buy one?
Jimbo>You post pictures of every cue you make, you've
> received cue orders from doing this, what good is your posts with pictures
to
> your cues doing me as a news group reader?
Well for one it gives you a chance to make fun of me.
It gives others who are interested something to look at.
If I may correct you here ...
I post a link to the photos ... not the photos themselves.
You don't really half to click on them if you don't want to, Jimbo.
> Willy: >Thanks for the belly laugh, I havent done that in a while.
>
Jimbo> That's to bad, I feel for you. You are welcome.
>
I hope you are not feeling yourself while thinking of me.
> Willy: >The same books I have read?
> >What books,
>
Jimbo> I don't think it's any secret your studying under Chris hightowers
book is it?
>
> Willy:>I say you are the one that speaks a lot about what he knows not!
>
That is one book.
You said books. so what are the others?
Dont know do ya, big boy!
Jimbo> I know all about Chris's book, you know it is for sale to anyone who
wants to
> buy it right?
>
You got one?
Have you read it?
> Willy: >You rant that I do not have enough experience
>
> Am I wrong?
>
Yes.
I do have enough experience and knowledge to make a cue.
Jimbo> Not the whole truth, but let's just say I did and I felt like bashing
your
> work. It would be blamed on some sort of made up hatred of you, even if I
> admitted to seeing and playing with one of your cues it would be pointless
to
> talk about it, would you agree.
>
No cauz then you could speak with first hand knowledge.
I think you are afraid you might find my cue a lot better than you expected.
What would you talk about then?
> Willy: >you are therefore not qualified to judge the cues or their maker.
> >Isn't that called hypocrisy?
>
Jimbo> Again what if I owned one, and bashed it. Would that matter? What
would be the
> point? Please tell me how you disagree with my point that you have very
little
> experience, and that you are in the learning stages.
We are all in the learning stages.
Even the best learn more.
Perhaps even you can learn more too.
> Willy: >If someone offers to sell you a Willee Cue check with me before
you
> whip out
> >the cash
>
> Are you %100 sure I don't own one?
Yes, Jimbo ... 100% sure!
> Jim<---Wishes willy good luck
Why Jimbo ... thank you.
I see hope for you also.
Texas Willee
Texas Willee
You must really be bored.
Since you pop in on my replies to others I feel obliged to pop in on a few
of yours.
Otherwise I would have stayed out of this one.
Texas Willee
Chas
> I see you're in your weekly try to get JimBo to argue with me mood (I'm bored
> I'll bite). You start Chas.
Have; did.
Hi.
> Chas: >An artist is always self-named first.
> Everyone doodles, and they can call it what they want, but again just because
> you call yourself something don't make it true.
Sure it does- in the case of art.
Essentially, 'Art is art because (I) say it's art'.
An Artist is an artist because he declares himself an artist.
> Artist for the most part are
> all lazy and weird Chas ;-)
Actually, you've got to be a real obsessive compulsive type- artists
are, by and large, compelled to do what they do. The money is an
excuse I tell my wife- I do it for the sheer doing of it.
> Chas: >Bill Schick's first cue was a booger-ooger
> What does this mean? I don't speak artist sorry.
'Booger'; a significant thing.
'Ooger'; a superlative modifier of the principal object
'Booger-ooger'; big juju
> Chas: >He trained under Ed
> >Prudhomme
> Are we talking about his cues or his engraving??
Engraving is a catch all term (in this case) for fine machining,
inlay, parts replacement and modification. Gun engraving is far more
than jewelry engraving or intaglio work. The pictures are only the
most visible part of the necessaries that go into the skill. Remember
that hardwoods are worked more like a soft metal than techniques
suited for most woodwork- same with ivory, stone and so on.
> Chas: >His first effort had a couple of
> >decades of very rigorous preparation behind it.
> Again are we talking decades of cuemaking or engraving skills?
Very close work in resistant material- the skills transfer pretty
readily to new materials or new 'engineering'.
> .......Many great cuemakers know that the early cues they made are
> junk, just ask anyone.
'Junk' in comparison to what?
And, just because they're 'artists' doesn't mean that they're *good*
artists.
> I've also seen junkie cues from great cuemakers, should
> I judge them on the bad stuff or on their body of work over their careers?
You judge the individual cue and the individual's career.
When the oeuvre is closed, their may be a vast difference between 'an
early effort by Balabushka', 'a chef d'oeuvre (masterpiece) at the
height of his career, 'a late piece' (as his eyes started to go and
his apprentices took over the boughing out chores).
He's an 'Artist' at all stages.
> When
> you get to the stage that you know why the cue is good and what parts of that
> cue need to be duplicated I think you are well on your way to being a cuemaker.
You're already a cuemaker- the next step is 'good cuemaker'.
> When you are new and one turns out good and one sucks and it's all up to luck I
> think you're in the learning stage. Do you disagree?
Not in the least.
A childhood study from Michelangelo's years in the atelier might well
have problems with foreshortening, chiaroscuro or composition, but the
aficionado will still try to see the roots of genius.
What would George Balabushka's first cue be worth?
What would a throw-away mistake from his studio be worth?
What would a sneaky pete from a good house cue made by GB be worth;
just his work on the joint and mating?
I guarantee you that there would be a competition to own them- and at
generous prices.
> Chas: >Yes.
> >One may very well be a 'good' cuemaker, and the other a 'novice
> >cuemaker
> When will you run out of adjectives Chas?
You mean, having used up 'good' and 'novice'?
Hardly.
> How bout if I ask you to compare
> Ernie Gutierrez with Willy, or Ernie with Dan Dishaw, or Ernie with Chris
> Nitti.
Yes.
That is called 'critique by compare and contrast'.
It can be used to discuss the merits of Senufu carving as with
Romanoff China plate.
> There are over 500 cuemakers can you come up with 500 adjectives or will
> you place them all on the same level as cuemakers.
'Cuemaker' is a very general description, not a rank.
> Chas: >Fifteen years as a gun engraver might well prepare one to
> >buy a lathe and a book- as might a background in a number of other
> >occupations.
> 15 years may earn you the money to buy a lathe but it will not give you the
> knowledge or experience it takes to build good cues, Bill's early cues were not
> good either,
In contrast to *what*?
Best cues ever made? UberCue? House cues? Cheap House cues? Your House
cues?
You have to define the standard against which something will be
judged.
> again feel free to ask any cuemaker what he thinks of the first 25
> cues he made. In 3 years I'd love to hear what Willy thinks of his first 20
> cues.
Ask Picasso what he thought about his first twenty five paintings (he
made over 80,000 pieces of art in his life).
Ask any art appraiser what any one of the first twenty five paintings
would be worth- you know, as opposed to a black velvet elvis from
Juarez.
> Chas: >You know, that's a very harsh word- and tends to block out anything
> >that comes after it. When you call a man a 'liar
> Lie and I'll call you a liar, see how easy it is?
Oh, I understand thoroughly.
> it's no worse a word then any
> other . keep in mind slander isn't slander if it's true.
Except in the case of 'false light defamation', 'importunate slander'
and a host of other exceptions.
Construing a 'lie' has a lot of ramifications- construing a man as a
'liar' even more.
> Chas: >When you call a man a 'liar'- particularly over
> >something inconsequential or picayune, it says more about you than it
> >does about him.
> So in Chas world it's ok to tell little white lies?
Sure.
You don't owe everybody the intimacy of privy information or insight.
If you ask a personal question, I may well say- 'I don't know' or
something equally neutral.
> Who judges what lies are
> inconsequential in your world Chas?
I do, Jim.
I have the fruit and flower of 58 years of rigor, discipline, morals
and integrity to guide me. If you wife asks if it's a pretty hat, I'm
going to smile and say; 'yes, ma'am'.
> I often worry about a man who has levels of
> right and wrong,
I worry about a man who has a rigid cosmology and a yen to apply it to
others.
> it's kinda like a guy who thought it was ok to kill people
> cause they were just jews or people who held slaves but they were just black,
Really?
I thought it was just a hat.
> who's to say what level of right and wrong you go by?
I am.
and I'll present to the Lord with an open heart and a fearless spirit;
secure in the knowledge that I wasn't all that fucking bad.
> Chas: >It's a personal word, Jim, and should be said to a
> >man's face *first*- then you can say it in public- you know, after
> >your mouth heals.
> Yes I know all about this, I mean I would have said it right to his face if he
> hadn't lied about hunting me down to give me said smash in mouth.
What, he hasn't shown up yet- and that makes it a 'lie'?
heh.
In the first place, it's fighting banter- nobody *really* thinks you
did that to your mother, it's just insulting hyperbole.
In the second place; intent at the time may be rethought- perhaps he
decided not to take umbrage.
> Again Chas I
> don't live in your world where you can go around smashing people in the mouth
> for the words they say.
That's a pity; a man should be responsible for what insults come out
of his mouth with the rest of his body.
> If someone in my world calls me a liar I laugh at them
> because it's funny and not true.
How....... refined.
> Seems to me people who get mad that you called
> them a liar are really just mad because you caught them in a lie.
nah; it's when some picayuney fatmouth asshole construes litigiously
and makes an utterly insulting remark in the hopes someone will never
smack him in his piehole for it.
> If you'd like
> to try this out just start lying, then I'll call you a liar and then I'll tell
> you my schedule and you'll get your chance to bash me in the mouth, maybe even
> with one of your fighting sticks.
That's always my decision, not yours.
> But as for now I have yet to think you are
> lying about anything you've said.
I'm a known man. I wouldn't care to impugn my reputation as an
appraiser, as a guru silat, as a father or as a man.
Neither do I consider all 'literal' untruths to be lies. Lie has a
level of malicious intent that separates it- except to Calvinists and
the odd Presbyter.
> Chas: >You ignore the fact that many things on eBay don't get a bid.
> You seem to ignore the fact that the whole point was about how Chas saz one
> thing (I don't make cues to sell them) and does another (posts links to his cue
> auctions) I guess you missed the point.
Yes, you did.
To make a cue with the *intent* of selling it is far different from
making a cue as an exercise and then selling it as opportune. Each of
TWillee's cues are a conscious step forward in skills acquisition, not
the simple repetition of a standard pattern to fill a marketing void.
When I made my first efforts, I gave them away; later, they were
attractive enough to command their own price, then I became
predictable and competent and things found their further level of
appreciation. The important thing has always been to acquire the
skills and then stretch them to accommodate *my* intent.
> Shocking! Also I could have brought up
> the fact about so many people said (his words) that his price was to cheap.
Too cheap in comparison to what? Fred's Cue Shack and Stormdoor
Factory? Ginacue? Philippine walking stick cues?
> Chas: >poop.
> >People describe their cues by the 'era'-
> If you had any clue you'd know that newer SW's sell for just as high as older
> ones and many sell for more.
SW is a bench making small factory- sole authorship cues are an
entirely different animal.
SW has a reputation for a broad range of cueskills- to have them
embodied in a single man is far more interesting artistically.
> In the past 4 months I've seen many older (jerry
> cues) sell for 1,500 and I have seen many more new ones sell for 1,800.
What was the comparison in the cues themselves.
If, at the extreme, the modern cue was embellished with ivory, and the
'jerry cue' was a four point plainjane, the prices are as I would
expect.
And again, you're not talking sole authorship, but the skills of a
foreman in charge of an atelier.
> Now
> maybe people are afraid to bid on cues with out a serial number or people just
> want new I have no idea, but what I do know is that Jerry era cues did not
> "skyrocket" due to his death.
They're not sole authorship.
You're familiar, no doubt, with Randall Made knives. The work by Bo
Randall, himself, is *very desirable* (tens of thousands per example),
work done while he was alive is worth far more than a modern example
of the self-same knife model made after his death.
There are discussions about small indications of a 'jerry' era cue-
and they are worth more than the comparable model made in a later era.
> Chas: >And it's utterly incorrect not to recognize that values immediately
> >*triple* in every class of Fine Art when the oeuvre is closed.
> Once again you prove you are utterly misinformed, stick to the art world,
We're talking *art* and nothing else.
You can buy a good hitter for a reasonable price- all the foofoo is
art, nothing less. Men have been decorating their weapons since time
immemorial; same-o with their gaming and sporting gear- and the cases
they carry them in. Some of our most precious objects are couched as a
weapon, or a utilitarian object of special significance.
> Yeah hard.... Jerry died in 96 (I'd like to stop talking about him God rest his
> sole) and today July 22 ,2002 Southwest cues are still being made, what did I
> miss?
His was not a sole authorship oeuvre; he was a foreman of an atelier-
a workshop of skilled craftsmen. His career as foreman was notable,
but the cues still have someone else's name on them- there's no
comparison to, say, the oeuvre of Barry Szamboti.
> Did the price of Ford cars triple the day Henry T died??
No, and Coke didn't triple when Mr. Cola died either.
Your point?
> BTW to use
> another example Verl Horn died and his cues didn't even double.
How desirable were they when he was living?
> Don't confuse marketing with a family name.
Don't consider the family skills as the same as learning the art as an
outsider.
> >In many ways, you live in a 'Golden Age' of cuemaking.
> Wrong again, in many ways we live in an era that allows people who have no clue
> how to BUILD a cue to do elaborate work and sell it as art.
It *is* 'art'.
that doesn't imply that it's *good* art, just art.
> A cue is a cue,
> it's built to play pool if it doesn't have the characteristics to play well I
> don't give a shit about the art in it, I play pool, I want a cue.
Then don't worry about whether the points are rounded or pointed;
whether the stick has veneers, inlays, full splices or exotic
material; it's the hit that counts.
In fine work, we call that 'Field Grade', or, as I do; 'Safari Grade'.
It means the finest in construction and engineering with little or no
superfluous gimcrackery.
At a certain point, many of us abandon that grade and go forward to
'Display grade' and 'Exhibition grade'. Sometimes there are other
names for upgrades of ornamentation, but the concept is the same.
> Chas: >Some of the
> >most outrageous stuff *ever made* is being made right now.
> Thomas Wayne made the most outrageous stuff ever made back in the 90's, he's
> not building cues right now and hasn't for the past 4 years, nobody has come
> close to his stuff since.
In the world of art, anything within the last decade is 'now'. I'm
comparing stuff back into the early nineteenth century- the gear being
done now is just outstanding.
> Chas: >he choice
> >is no longer between a poor cue and a good one, it's between a good
> >and a very good/better/best.
> Again you keep inventing adjectives,
Actually, I can't take the credit, as attractive and seductive as that
power might be. 'Good', 'Better' and 'Best' (all three) were used
before I used them.
Are you going to call me a 'plagiarist'? Try to drum up an attitude of
social opprobrium and calumny? Castigate me insultingly in public?
I mean, hell; it's your fantasy, I'm just here for the beer.
> ......Your wrong Chas BUILDING
> a cue is an art, the art in the cue isn't what matters, and that's what's wrong
> with the buying public today.
Everybody's got four walls; figure two pictures per wall- six billion
people- that's 50 billion pictures that are needed immediately.
No wonder people buy velvet pictures of dogs shooting pool.
> If you want to run out and buy the pretties cue
> you can find for the money you'll do fine if you hang it on your wall, but if
> you want to play pool I suggest you buy a cue that's made well and built by a
> cuemaker with some experience.
Needs we no Lady Risen from the Lake a'Sward in hand to apprise of
that deep truth, Friend Jimbo.
> People wonder why Ginacues are 5k and up, what
> they miss is that Ernie has the knowledge to BUILD a great cue and the SKILL to
> make it a piece of art, it's not an accident.
By the time one is spending $5k on a stick- that's a *stick*, mind
you, the differences are very finely judged.
It's much like custom knife fanciers. Somebody built a $100K knife;
then an $800K and now, someone has broken the million dollar level.
And, they could do it all with a $2 pack of Schick Single-edge Razor
Blades- it's decadence, I tell you, decadence.
> Chas: >he price for the application of technical skills in a well
> >outfitted shop by an intelligent and skillful human being are just
> >going to go up, not down.
> Nope, there will always be people who learn to build a cue and then work on the
> art part and the ones who just want to pump out pretty wood.
And some other guys too- all cuemakers.
It's a broad field.
> One will last the
> other will not. Time tells all and I don't care how well you can run a CNC if
> your cues suck you'll be out of business soon.
That's called 'bad' art- the cafe's are full of failed actors you
know.
> I don't expect you to understand
> any of what I wrote because I don't think you are a pool player,
No, I'm a pool dabbler- I do have some honed physical skills
accomplished for their own sake, so I have some small idea of the
motivations and commitment inherent. I also have a background in other
'collectible' objects of practical usage and application- fine knives
is an example.
> but I guess I
> respect some of what you write when it comes to the art world.
Oh, I just showed up for a coffee house discussion of artistic
integrity- your opinion is every much the value of mine.
We call it 'A Cow's Taste in Art'; I don't know much about it, but I
know what I like.
> PS this was very long I hope Smug has the time and the beer to get threw it all
> and correct my grammar
Did Bud go out of business and Kooh-i-noor stop making Red Pencils?
I think not.
Edward Kagan
Texas Willee as TW. It can be explained by my lack of experience on this
board. Now, should I call myself a wannabe newsgroup user? :o)
Ed
"Texas Willee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TW__8.161125$eF5.4...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Edward Kagan
I'm glad to see that you agree with me on many points. Nice to know that I
am not all alone in my imagined world.
Ed
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D3C4CE4...@attbi.com...
Jimbo Ct
>There ... that clears that up once and for all.
>Wanta buy one?
Well yes it does clear that up, thak you for being honest for once, I never
understood the other route anyway. No thanx I'm not interested right now, but
if you happen to come up with something I like I'll be sure to make an offer,
maybe in a few years, right now I have 1 to many cues.
Willy: >Well for one it gives you a chance to make fun of me.
I've always had much more fun making fun of you and your words, but if you can
show where I wrecked on one of the cues you put a picture up of I'd love to see
it. As a matter of fact I've always offered an opinion when you asked, if you
consider that making fun of then maybe you shouldn't ask for opinions.
Willy: >You got one?
>Have you read it?
I may have flipped threw the pages, is that all right or is it only for you
guys who own lathes? Do I need to know the secret hand shake?
Willy: >I do have enough experience and knowledge to make a cue.
So do I, want to form a club???BTW I think you and I have different definitions
of the word experience.
Willy: >No cauz then you could speak with first hand knowledge.
>I think you are afraid you might find my cue a lot better than you expected.
You can't read ! It's never been about your cues, it's always been about you.
Keep trying to turn the topic to your cues, but it's not an issue.
Willy: >What would you talk about then?
The same thing I have always talked about, YOU AND YOUR AROGANCE AND EGO. Your
idiotic posts, the list is endless.
Willy: >We are all in the learning stages.
That's a great way to avoid the issue, can we quote you on that line? You are
the next coming of Yogi.
Willy: >Yes, Jimbo ... 100% sure!
>
Ummmmmmmm Don't bet on it.
Jim <-----Thinks willy should rethink his percentages
Jimbo Ct
>make?
That was a serious post, I meant it. ANd yes when you twist things so bad I do
feel a need to reply, sorry if it offends you, it will stop when you learn to
read.
Jim <----Ok that last part may have been a bit sarcastic
Jimbo Ct
few
>of yours.
Feel free, it's still America last I checked
Jim <---America Home of Earl "World Champ" Pearl
Jimbo Ct
Chas I feel bad that I don't have the time or the vigor to pursue this talk of
Art. I am now and was before talking Pool Cues, you have no clue about pool
cues. They can not be compared to knives or pictures or gun cases, they are an
entity all on their own. They have different reasons for being worth money and
other reasons for being collectable. I can't explain to you about Jerry
Franklin and SW cues when you have no idea about the cues or the shop, I spent
2 paragraphs trying and then you came back with this post trying to explain to
me what I just told you about it. This is a pool news group I hope you either
study up (on Pool) or move your show to Alt.Art.Wackos the conversion table is
broke, you took twisting a thread to all new heights. This was a post about
cuemaking and what experience is needed to understand the cue, you tried to
turn it into a foo foo art conversation. I do enjoy watching you squirm for new
and exciting words to impress us all with and I also like how you think
something is Art just because the artist saz it is, I think this is part of the
art worlds problem, maybe they should let others decide what is and what isn't
art. And if Artist had any merit they would sell their own art to pay their
bills instead of crying to government about grants, funding and aid. I for one
don't call the government for a check when my bar gets slow or if I pour a
shitty drink. The starving artist act works great in college, but then you need
to grow up and pay bills. I don't give a crap how many of an artists friends
tell him how great his work is if they ain't buying it. The electric company
doesn't accept paintings as payment in these parts. That's it for my Art/
Artist rant, I'm done I know where to bud in and where to bud out, I know
nothing of Art, Gun's, Knives, and fancy words, you on the other hand know
NOTHING about cues, have a nice life. If you have any questions that I may be
able to help you with about cues feel free to ask, I'm sure if I can't help
some one here can. I on the other hand will contact you on any art topics I may
have questions about.
Jim <---thanx for the twist
Donald Tees
think it Jimbo that has some idea that cue making is an endeavor different
than any other in life, with some esoterical woofing involved that only he
and a few other select cue collectors understand.
Maybe becoming a cuemaker involves some mystic rite of being cursed at here
in RSB for three or four years before coming of age.
Donald
"Edward Kagan" <odes...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:117%8.26347$bl.33...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
Joe Van
thrown around, especially with new cuemakers. I remember back in the late 80's
Prather had a cue "kit" so you could make your own cue. If I did one of these,
would this make me a cuemaker? I also remember a kit in the 70's that let you
burn patterns in leather, this thing would never clear UL today, if I made a
wallet with this would I be a leathersmith? I don't think so in either case. As
far as artists being self named, I disagree. If I wiped a booger-ooger (tm Chas
Clements) on a piece of paper and said thats art and I am an artist, I deserve
to be locked away for along time.
I think an artist is an artist when he is publicly, and by his peers,
recognized for his creations.
Has Willee made enough cues to be considered a cuemaker? I think once you past
5-10 cues you can probably say your a novice cuemaker. I don't think Willee
will argue that he has alot to learn, because you learn new things every day.
Will Willee become the next (insert your fave cuemaker here) who the hell
knows? Only time will answer that question.
Joe
>"Donald Tees" donal...@sympatico.ca writes:
>I do not think you far off from most people. Certainly not from me. I
>think it Jimbo that has some idea that cue making is an endeavor different
>than any other in life, with some esoterical woofing involved that only he
>and a few other select cue collectors understand.
>
>Maybe becoming a cuemaker involves some mystic rite of being cursed at here
>in RSB for three or four years before coming of age.
>
>Donald
Texas Willee
Whew ... only three more to go.
Texas Willee
"Donald Tees" <donal...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:M0c%8.3067$dk1.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
In reference to Chris Hightowers book on cuemaking:
> Willy: >You got one?
> >Have you read it?
>
Jimbo> I may have flipped threw the pages, is that all right or is it only
for you
> guys who own lathes? Do I need to know the secret hand shake?
You gota know the hidden code to be able to extract the deepest darkest
secrets of the cuemakers craft, Jimbo.
Texas Willee
Donald Tees
news:20020723095719...@mb-dh.aol.com...
What you say is true in any field. I have a degree in computer science, and
have written better than 10 million lines of programs over a thirty year
career. Total sales of those programs run well up in the 8 digit range.
Nevertheless, I am a programmer, and so is the lowliest high school student
that walks out the door, sits down at a terminal, and writes their first
program for a their own gratification. Even if it is only a web page, or a
student exercise.
Someone that writes computer programs is a computer programmer, and someone
that makes cues is a cuemaker. Those are simple words, and they describe
simple facts, actording to simple meanings. To call some one a liar, and to
take umbrage for well over a year, based on the fact that someone uses
simple words out of the dictionary is a bit off the end, IMO.
To start a long thread claiming that "TW" is somehow a set of sacred letters
that should be avoided in deference to the ability of some god is taking it
to the point of psychosis.
If the student in the above example wrote a long essay about how good they
were, then perhaps a professional programmer would take the time to discount
their claims, though I doubt I would spend a year calling someone names over
it. If, (as Texas Willy has done) They said: "Hey I know I am not a master
yet, but I am having fun and actually DOING it. I am a real programmer!
Wow !", then I would smile a big grin, and say "By golly, you sure are.
Well done. You are indeed a real live programmer".
Donald
PS -- Perhaps fact that it is a cue *collector* rather than a cuemaker that
has decided to be the guardian of public morals on definitions is
indicative.
Texas Willee
> I think Jimbos beef, or one of them, is that the term cuemaker is to
easily
> thrown around, especially with new cuemakers.
Joe .... did you just call the new cuemakers, "cuemakers"?
And just why is Jimbo's beef so important around here anyway?
>I remember back in the late 80's
> Prather had a cue "kit" so you could make your own cue. If I did one of
these,
> would this make me a cuemaker? I also remember a kit in the 70's that let
you
> burn patterns in leather, this thing would never clear UL today, if I made
a
> wallet with this would I be a leathersmith? I don't think so in either
case.
<snip>
Well, Joe, I have never seriously said I was a master at the craft.(perhaps
once or twice jokingly)
The fact that I have purchased several expensive pieces of equipment
designed expressly for cuemaking, converted my 1 1/2 car garage into a cue
shop, the fact that I have made almost all my cues from raw materials (and
continue to make them), spent many hours studying materials and cue makeing
techniques, and wasted many, many nice pieces of wood trying to learn those
techniques, place me a bit above the hacker group or the one time cue kit
dabbler. I may not be making production numbers of cues, nor have loads of
money been spent on advertising (I get it free here thanks to Jimbo) but
have no doubt, I am a cuemaker, good, bad, novice, or otherwise.
I dont even think about how little per hour I earn for those hours of work
that goes into each one of my handcrafted cues. Money is not the reason I do
it altho money is always welcome around here. You are correct about time
telling about quality. Other than the self satisfaction of taking raw
materials and creating a thing of functional beauty and value, the other
reason that I started cuemaking was the thought that someday long after I am
departed, someone will be playing pool with one of my hand crafted cues.
Whether or not that player knows or even cares who made it is illrelevent at
this point.
Texas Willee
Chas
> I think Jimbos beef, or one of them, is that the term cuemaker is to easily
> thrown around, especially with new cuemakers.
Yeah; it definitely twists his knickers, doesn't it?
> I remember back in the late 80's
> Prather had a cue "kit" so you could make your own cue. If I did one of these,
> would this make me a cuemaker?
Yes; preceded by the modifier; 'duffer'.
> I also remember a kit in the 70's that let you
> burn patterns in leather, this thing would never clear UL today, if I made a
> wallet with this would I be a leathersmith?
Why not?
Would it be 'good' leathersmith? or 'professional leathersmith'? or
'master leathersmith'?
I think not.
> I don't think so in either case. As
> far as artists being self named, I disagree.
That's your choice; artists disagree- ask your Dada.
> If I wiped a booger-ooger (tm Chas
> Clements) on a piece of paper and said thats art and I am an artist, I deserve
> to be locked away for along time.
Serial criminal that you are.
> I think an artist is an artist when he is publicly, and by his peers,
> recognized for his creations.
A charming affectation, but not much use in the real world.
'Artist' is a person who makes art.
That's about it.
> Has Willee made enough cues to be considered a cuemaker? I think once you past
> 5-10 cues you can probably say your a novice cuemaker. I don't think Willee
> will argue that he has alot to learn, because you learn new things every day.
> Will Willee become the next (insert your fave cuemaker here) who the hell
> knows? Only time will answer that question.
Sure- you're using the same adjective as me; 'novice', as opposed to
'master' or some other modifier.
A cuemaker is a guy that makes cues- he may make good ones, he may
make bad. He may have a large body of work, he may not. He may sell
them for $10K or he may give them away to friends and the Boy Scout
Troop. He may do it as a profession, do it as a hobby, do it part time
to supplement his income as a lapdancer in a peg joint- all that is a
'modifier'/adjective that describes what *sort* of cuemaker he is.
Chas
> Chas I feel bad that I don't have the time or the vigor to pursue this talk of
> Art.
That's ok, compa- I know things get hectic; tapping kegs, filling the
peanut bowls, trying to stand up at the end of the night.
> I am now and was before talking Pool Cues, you have no clue about pool
> cues. They can not be compared to knives or pictures or gun cases, they are an
> entity all on their own.
Which doesn't preclude being compared and contrasted with other objet
d'arte et virtue, or with each other.
> They have different reasons for being worth money and
> other reasons for being collectable.
Yup; much the same as violins, fine race cars, carved chess pieces or
any other utilitarian object raised to the status of an icon.
> I can't explain to you about Jerry
> Franklin and SW cues when you have no idea about the cues or the shop, I spent
> 2 paragraphs trying and then you came back with this post trying to explain to
> me what I just told you about it.
That's because you're essentially a bartender talking about a hobby-
not anyone with any sort of authoritative opinion who approaches it
for his living.
I approach it as an appraiser- very commonly, I'm given an object that
I've not seen before. There is a 'structure' within which one can
judge an object, appraise it's value and justify that appraisal with a
reasoned analysis.
> This is a pool news group I hope you either
> study up (on Pool) or move your show to Alt.Art.Wackos the conversion table is
> broke, you took twisting a thread to all new heights.
You're just snippy because I called you a 'fatmouth asshole', aren't
you?
Try thinking of it as rhetorical argumentative hyperbole- it might
objectify it for you.
> This was a post about
> cuemaking and what experience is needed to understand the cue, you tried to
> turn it into a foo foo art conversation.
Did you think you were giving a lecture?
Conversations run two ways, Jimbo
Sure it's art; maybe even, Art. I sure hope so, because I'm spending
much of my artistic career participating in it. If you think it's hard
to justify cuemaking as art, you ought to try justifying cases for
pool cues as Art <g>
You can get a pool cue for $50 and a brown paper sack to carry it in-
everything else is an affectation.
What's not to love?
> I do enjoy watching you squirm for new
> and exciting words to impress us all with
I didn't realize you enjoyed such a low level of vocabulatorial
proficiosity.
I thought bartenders enjoyed spirited conversation, witty repartee,
and playing the dozens every little once in a while.
> and I also like how you think
> something is Art just because the artist saz it is,
Artists make art.
If an artist makes it, and calls it art, it is art.
It may be *bad* art, but that's a matter of opinion.
> I think this is part of the
> art worlds problem, maybe they should let others decide what is and what isn't
> art.
The viewer decides if it's art he can live with and will pay for- not
whether it's art or Something Else (tm).
> And if Artist had any merit they would sell their own art to pay their
> bills instead of crying to government about grants, funding and aid.
Now you're talking about another subject entirely; art as politics,
art as socialism, art with 'merit'.
It's still *art*.
> I for one
> don't call the government for a check when my bar gets slow or if I pour a
> shitty drink.
You don't have to. The government already regulates, taxes, licenses
and administrates your entire industry. You're a dope dealer, and your
industry lobbies for special consideration constantly. Wait till the
lawyers hit you like they got the Tobacco Industry-
> The starving artist act works great in college, but then you need
> to grow up and pay bills.
That would be one of the differences between 'professional' artist and
'hobbiest'- they're both still 'artists'.
> I don't give a crap how many of an artists friends
> tell him how great his work is if they ain't buying it. The electric company
> doesn't accept paintings as payment in these parts.
Bob Crumb just traded a half dozen of his sketchbooks for a chateau in
France-
maybe they use oil lamps.
> That's it for my Art/
> Artist rant, I'm done I know where to bud in and where to bud out, I know
> nothing of Art, Gun's, Knives, and fancy words, you on the other hand know
> NOTHING about cues, have a nice life.
Well, thanks Jimbo.
I hope you do well in your bar too.
> If you have any questions that I may be
> able to help you with about cues feel free to ask,
Actually, I think I'd ask a cuemaker- you know, a 'good' cuemaker.
But hey, if I ever need to know about getting sloshed and strokin' a
beer tap, you de man.
> I'm sure if I can't help
> some one here can. I on the other hand will contact you on any art topics I may
> have questions about.
Hey, feel free; I do it for a living.
> Jim <---thanx for the twist
Sure, buddy; I consider a day wasted unless I bring a little sunshine
into someone's life.
Texas Willee
Damm Chas, you sure got a way with words and your logic seems squeaky clean!
Jimbo loves to argue and it looks like he might at last have found a worthy
opponent.
I cant wait for the next round.
Texas Willee
Otto
>Other than the self satisfaction of taking raw
> materials and creating a thing of functional beauty and value, the other
> reason that I started cuemaking was the thought that someday long after I
am
> departed, someone will be playing pool with one of my hand crafted cues.
Do you sign and date your cues?
Otto--recommends it
Otto
> Artists make art.
> If an artist makes it, and calls it art, it is art.
> It may be *bad* art, but that's a matter of opinion.
Speaking of art
What do you call a guy with no arms and legs hanging on the wall?
Art
What do you call the same person's arms and legs hanging on the wall?
Pieces of Art
LOL.
Otto--crackin' himself up
Joe Van
>> I think Jimbos beef, or one of them, is that the term cuemaker is to
>easily
>> thrown around, especially with new cuemakers.
>
>Joe .... did you just call the new cuemakers, "cuemakers"?
>And just why is Jimbo's beef so important around here anyway?
I was trying to be objective and only offered an opinion of reason to a rant.
Yes I did, it should have read newcomers to the art of cuemaking. Better?
>Well, Joe, I have never seriously said I was a master at the craft.(perhaps
>once or twice jokingly)
>The fact that I have purchased several expensive pieces of equipment
>designed expressly for cuemaking, converted my 1 1/2 car garage into a cue
>shop, the fact that I have made almost all my cues from raw materials (and
>continue to make them), spent many hours studying materials and cue makeing
>techniques, and wasted many, many nice pieces of wood trying to learn those
>techniques, place me a bit above the hacker group or the one time cue kit
>dabbler.
Willee I was not talking about you in reference to the kit, I was just asking
the question if I assemble the kit, does it make me a cuemaker? I think it
would make me more a model builder than a cuemaker. I am aware of what you
purchased, I do read once in a while. :)
As far as everything else, only you have to be happy in your endevours. If
making cues makes you happy, thats all that counts.
Texas Willee
I also photograph every one of them for future reference.
Why do you recommend it?
I doubt seriously if I will ever be considered as anything special in the
cuemaking world.
I think rather just another of so many micro-cuemakers of this period who
loved the craft, made a few cues, and then faded off into obscurity.... But
the cues ... they will still be around somewhere many years into the future.
I doubt if people will just throw them away.
Perhaps they will put away in some closet somewhere waiting to be discovered
by a young want-a-be pool pro or rest in a pawn shop gathering dust.
Who knows?
Texas Willee
"Otto" <Ottosl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:5Xf%8.249$pg2....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Texas Willee
<snip>
> Willee I was not talking about you in reference to the kit, I was just
asking
> the question if I assemble the kit, does it make me a cuemaker? I think it
> would make me more a model builder than a cuemaker. I am aware of what you
> purchased, I do read once in a while. :)
>
No problem Joe,
I hope you can see that it was easy for me to make the assumption that you
might have been refering to me.
Just didnt want anyone getting the wrong idea (and you know that happens
here a lot).
Texas Willee
Joe Van
>Yeah; it definitely twists his knickers, doesn't it?
Well we are all entitled to our opinions, Jimbo his.
>> I remember back in the late 80's
>> Prather had a cue "kit" so you could make your own cue. If I did one of
>these,
>> would this make me a cuemaker?
>
>Yes; preceded by the modifier; 'duffer'.
IMHO it makes me a model builder, not a cuemaker.
>> I also remember a kit in the 70's that let you
>> burn patterns in leather, this thing would never clear UL today, if I made
>a
>> wallet with this would I be a leathersmith?
>
>Why not?
Because, I did some hack hobby thing doesn't make me, or mean that I deserve to
be, called a leathersmith. Because you know how to tighten a bolt, does it make
you a mechanic? But then again a mechanic sounds better than saying I am a nut
tightner.
>That's your choice; artists disagree- ask your Dada.<<
My dada?
>>A charming affectation, but not much use in the real world.
'Artist' is a person who makes art.
That's about it.<<
Again, everyone has an opinion. Since art is like beauty, maybe the definition
of the "art" would be subjective, therefore the term artist would or could be
substituted for nutjob, whacko, or psycho or some other noun that would
more correctly connect the person to his work. To give an example, some people
list Charles Manson as an artist. Why? Cause his murders to some were works of
art. Now is he an artist or a nutjob? Purely your choice from where you stand.
>all that is a 'modifier'/adjective that describes what *sort* of cuemaker he
is.<<
I have no problem with novice, master, or those type adjectives. So I think we
somewhat agree.
Joe
Jimbo Ct
>Jimbo loves to argue and it looks like he might at last have found a worthy
>opponent.
That I do, but I like to argue issues and ideas with someone with 1/2 a clue.
Chas knows alot about Art and nothing about how it relates to cues. Thus it's
not really an argument, it's me talking cues and him trying to relate it to
art, not really as fun as arguing.
Jim <---Going to buy some art books
Otto
> No Otto, I don't but I have started engraving a little "W" in the butt
cap.
> I also photograph every one of them for future reference.
> Why do you recommend it?
So that 50 years from now when Earl's great grandson is winning the US Open
with your cue everyone will know who the corpse was that made it and when he
made it.
Otto
Jim White
Jim
"Otto" <Ottosl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:BOh%8.550$Kl6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jimbo Ct
At my weight you should try standing on bar mats for 10 hours, it ain't as easy
as one would think, I'd sit on my fat ass and pound leather if I thought I
could make 1/2 the money.
Chas: >
>Which doesn't preclude being compared and contrasted with other objet
>d'arte et virtue, or with each other.
Well it could be compared but one would still need a working knowledge of the
subject matter, in this case cues, and as you've shown already you lack this.
Chas: >much the same as violins, fine race cars, carved chess pieces or
>any other utilitarian object raised to the status of an icon.
Nope just cues, we are just talking cues.
Chas: >That's because you're essentially a bartender talking about a hobby-
>not anyone with any sort of authoritative opinion who approaches it
>for his living.
Nope, I was a cue collector before I was a Bartender, I've talked cues with
cuemakers and cue sellers for many years. I've bought and sold cues, I've made
a cue, I've worked in a cue shop, I've pretty much done it all. But first and
foremost I play with cues and if you could follow a thread you'd see that this
is about cues, making cues for playing, not art. But I can see were you'd need
to try and switch the argument to the art field because you have no idea about
cues and their use. Let's talk knives again shall we?
Chas: >I approach it as an appraiser- very commonly, I'm given an object that
>I've not seen before.
I feel for people who would give an object that you have no idea about for an
appraisal.But still the fact remains we are talking cues for playing in this
thread, did you miss that or just felt left out because you have no clue on the
topic?
Chas: >You're just snippy because I called you a 'fatmouth asshole', aren't
>you?
I don't recall those words, and I don't feel I was snippy with you, but like I
said before it's not slander if it's true and I think if you asked most who
really knew me they'd agree with you. I'm sorry if that wasn't the response you
were looking for but I don't get mad at words and make threats like many here
do.
Chas: >Try thinking of it as rhetorical argumentative hyperbole
If it's rhetorical and a hyperbole how then can it be argumentative???
Chas: >Did you think you were giving a lecture?
No I felt like I was talking apples and you were trying to tell me how much
they were like Shoeboxes. You may have thought you were giving an art lecture,
but the fact is we are talking cues, shit it's even in the header try to follow
along Chas.
Chas: >Conversations run two ways, Jimbo
A conversation is only a conversation when we are talking the same topic. this
isn't the case here, I'm talking English and you talking French it's not
working out.
Chas: >I sure hope so, because I'm spending
>much of my artistic career participating in it.
You claim to make case for pool cues, all you need to know is the size of the
cue so you can build the case big enough to fit it, and it seems that may be
the extent of what you know.
Chas: >If you think it's hard
>to justify cuemaking as art
I never once claimed this, but again our topic was building a cue for playing
purposes, it's called comprehension, you lack it.
Chas: >I didn't realize you enjoyed such a low level of vocabulatorial
>proficiosity.
I'd enjoy a higher level if it was even close to being on topic.
Chas: >I thought bartenders enjoyed spirited conversation, witty repartee,
>and playing the dozens every little once in a while.
We do, but even a drunk can follow the topic of conversation, something you
seem to be hard pressed to do. As far as the dozens go I don't feel insulted in
the least, I feel sorry that you are showing a lack of knowledge in the cue
area and then you expect people to pay an ungodly amount for a case for this
item from you. It's no wonder you can't sell cases.
Chas: >Artists make art.
>If an artist makes it, and calls it art, it is art.
You say ART,ART &ART, I'm talking cues ,cues, &cues, sorry.
Chas: >
>You don't have to. The government already regulates, taxes, licenses
>and administrates your entire industry.
yes but the point you miss is as a bar I pay all these fees, we are taxed out
the ass on liquor in CT. On the other hand as an artists who make no money you
guy's cry and beg for money, do you not see how it's 180 degrees different?
Chas: >You're a dope dealer, and your
>industry lobbies for special consideration constantly
Yes we are drug dealers, except the people who come in my bar must be 21 years
or older, they are all adults and they all make a choice to spend their money
on the drug in question. Where in the art world the liberals give money to bad
artist for bad art all the time and then hide behind the first amendment. If
you can't see a difference between an adult buying a beer and my tax dollars
paying for some moron to make a copy of the Pieta done in cow shit.
Chas: >That would be one of the differences between 'professional' artist and
>'hobbiest'- they're both still 'artists'
yeah but one lives off mommy and daddy and the other has to wait tables at the
local coffee house.
Chas: >Bob Crumb just traded a half dozen of his sketchbooks for a chateau in
>France-
>maybe they use oil lamps.
For every Crumb there is 200,000 guys like you who can't give away a case at
your prices but is to proud to lower the price to fit the market. Some are
smart enough to get another job to pay the bills and call it a hobby and others
just hang around and beg for business.
Chas: >I hope you do well in your bar too.
>
I've already had a nice life and I'll continue to, in the bar or out.
Chas: >Actually, I think I'd ask a cuemaker- you know, a 'good' cuemaker.
I doubt you'd know how to find a GOOD one, but at least I offered. You can at
least ask me the small questions like what BCA stands for.
Chas: >if I ever need to know about getting sloshed and strokin' a
>beer tap, you de man.
As long as it's beer or the name of the drink has the ingredients in it I'm the
man.
Chas: >feel free; I do it for a living.
Well, that's your take, but we haven't seen any proof of it.
Jim <-------Can't wait till someone starts a thread about tables so Chas can
tell us all about rodeo leather and how the 2 compare.
Jimbo Ct
at here
>in RSB for three or four years before coming of age.
Hey Don I think your statement is unfair. I believe that there has been over
the years 25 or more cuemakers to visit this group, some stay some just stop
by. I don't feel that I have gotten into it with many at all. When I first met
new cuemakers like Sheldon, Murray Tucker,Clark Smith, Bryan Mort, Layani,
Barrngier, Webb, Cameron, & Annie-O I never busted any of their balls, as a
matter of fact I supported many of them. I've seen good and bad cues from many
of them, I've never commented in a negative way. Along comes willy asking for
help with buying a lathe for repairs, he also asked about books and videos
because he had no idea about fixing cues. 3 short months later he was answering
every cue question like a seasoned pro and claiming how easy it was being a
cuemaker. The guy's ego and lack of experience just strikes me wrong and I'm
not one to hold my tongue as you well know. I had some fun with the guy and he
threatened to beat me up in VF, I think we all know how the story goes. To this
day he has only shown the attitude of a novice cuemaker in the learning process
a few times in his post (most here know the truth and read that into his post)
but I like to smack him back to reality every once in a while. truth be told I
wish him all the luck and I hope he uses his vigor to LEARN all about cues and
makes them well in the future. I already think that with his ego I've done more
for his cuemaking then any other factor. But to say I pick on all new cuemakers
who visit us just isn't a true statement.
Jim<-----Just the facts
Jimbo Ct
someone
>that makes cues is a cuemaker.
It's easy to put it in terms of this, but some fields are more of a craft then
a job and to simplify it just isn't right, if you change your own oil are you a
mechanic, and better yet would you call yourself a mechanic. because truth be
told the argument has always been about his assessment of himself, and his lack
of respect for something I consider an art. I could make a statement that just
wouldn't make sense to some, but here goes.
Just because you're a cuemaker doesn't make you a cuemaker.
Donald: >To call some one a liar, and to
>take umbrage for well over a year, based on the fact that someone uses
>simple words
Again Donald it pisses me off when people don't know what they are talking
about. I've never called Willy a liar because he claimed to be a cuemaker. The
liar part first came up when he started to claim he had months of experience at
building cues and I proved using his own posts that he hadn't even posted about
buying the lathe until 3 months after he claimed he had it and was making cues.
Also he claimed the lathe he bought took 3 months to get after it was ordered,
so if he was telling the truth when he posted he had no lathe and no clue and
if he was telling the truth when he posted the lathe took 3 months to build and
deliver once ordered then his claims of building them 6 months before must have
been a lie. Now is it a little white lie? Your call. Was it a lie to trick
people into buying a cue from a guy who had only just started thinking he had 8
months of experience? Again your call. Other lies I called him on where when he
claims that he isn't selling cues and then he posts a link to an E-bay auction.
Again your call. His claims that he was going to find me and beat me up in VF.
He was coming to CT. for a month and he would find me and give me what I
deserved. Again all up to you to decide if they were big lies or little lies.
He made reference to and alluded to the fact that he was going to harm me in
some way, everyone here knew exactly what he meant but when he was called on it
he denied that's what he meant. To me these are all lies, I don't like liars, I
don't like to look past lies that involve me. you on the other hand may choose
to look at them as small exaggerations and think nothing of them, you may not
feel they add up, you may want to loan this guy $20, I don't care. but please
don't say that I was calling him a liar because he choose to use the word
cuemaker. I in no way put him in the class of an MM, but still he has lied and
been caught on a few things, maybe I should have just ignored them, but it's
more fun not to.
jim <---In it for the fun
PS: as far as your PS goes, it's implied that Willy is a newbie and most true
cuemakers (who even know of him)do consider him a clown, none would point it
out in a public forum and none would want to get into some pissing contest with
him. I do it because it's fun and the group is boring as of late so I spiced it
up. But what could a real cuemaker gain from tossing dirt with willy, other
then making themselves look bad.
Donald Tees
> Donald: >Someone that writes computer programs is a computer programmer,
and
> someone
> >that makes cues is a cuemaker.
>
> It's easy to put it in terms of this, but some fields are more of a craft
then
> a job and to simplify it just isn't right, if you change your own oil are
you a
> mechanic, and better yet would you call yourself a mechanic. because truth
be
> told the argument has always been about his assessment of himself, and his
lack
> of respect for something I consider an art. I could make a statement that
just
> wouldn't make sense to some, but here goes.
> Just because you're a cuemaker doesn't make you a cuemaker.
>
Being a "mechanic" involves a licience in most jurisdictions. "Licenced
mechanic" and "mechanic" have completely different meanings.
Other professions do not have professional accredidation. That is the
nature of the english language. The degree of skill involved has nothng to
do with it. Programming is at least as difficult to learn as cue making, as
are all sorts of other skills. What determines meaning is the dictionary
and common usage. If I build a car, then I am a car maker, if I change the
oil, I am a oil changer, if I build houses I am a house builder.
What I find rather amusing is that I have been fighting this battle from the
other side for about twenty years now. I have called myself a programmer
for thirty years. Long about twenty years back, PR hacks, bankers,
salesmen, company presidents (who I hired to run my companies), etc., all
started telling me I could not be a programmer anymore,even though what I do
is write programs. I had to be a systems analyst, a software engineer,
maybe a computer systems designer, or perhaps a senior systems programmer at
the very least. The fact is, though, I write programs. Therefore I am a
programmer. The other stuff is window dressing for bullshit artists.
Donald
Donald Tees
> Don saz: >Maybe becoming a cuemaker involves some mystic rite of being
cursed
> at here
> >in RSB for three or four years before coming of age.
>
> Hey Don I think your statement is unfair. I believe that there has been
over
> the years 25 or more cuemakers to visit this group, some stay some just
stop
Probably is unfair, but it sure is getting tiring.
Donald
Mark0
Mark0 <--at least it wasn't that marco23 guy
"Jim White" <poola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0%h%8.15860$_C2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jim White
Jim
"Mark0" <markmc...@charter.deletethis.net> wrote in message
news:ujrih4e...@corp.supernews.com...
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> Also he claimed the lathe he bought took 3 months to get after it was
ordered,
I dont want to start another argument here but my first repair lathe took
onlt 3 weeks to get and the porper lathe 6 weeks.
Not all you "truths" are real true, Jimbo.
You tend to tell it like you want it to sound not the way it really is.
Texas Willee
Jimbo Ct
>
What the fuck else do you got to do? Shit this group has been so slow there has
only been about 20 posts (if you take mine away) in the past 2 weeks. Feel free
to block me I'm sure it won't hurt to bad, or how about you add a little
something with your vast knowledge, shit we'd all love to see some good posts,
only problem is we only have me and willy posting them, so it makes it tough to
find Good posts.
Jim <-----Block me
Texas Willee
"Jimbo Ct" <jim...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020723161148...@mb-ba.aol.com...
> PS: as far as your PS goes, it's implied that Willy is a newbie and most
true
> cuemakers (who even know of him)do consider him a clown, none would point
it
> out in a public forum and none would want to get into some pissing contest
with
> him. I do it because it's fun and the group is boring as of late so I
spiced it
> up.
Once again Jimbo speaks for the cuemakers and goes on to explain why they
don't have the balls to speak for themselves!
I think they do have the balls but just don't really give a damm about
Jimbo's forever ongoing pissing contest.
I am so tired of his bull shit I wont even bother addressing any other of
his twisted statements that reek of "spice".
Texas Willee < ..... thug, liar, spoiler of newbee ASP'ers, but worst of
all ... cuemaker!