Steel vs Soft
lh...@tradelogic.com
Noah I Rosenberg wrote:
> Well soft tips are also a lot more common and a lot cheaper.. I
> bought a dart board for $10 and the included the board AND three shitty
> darts... no bristle board goes for that cheap (well okay I have since foudn
> a cork board for $15 but I doubt it'd have laster as long as my soft tips
> have)
>
> Also I've never seena bristle board in a bar anywhere, all they have
> is those soft tipped dart machines anymore..
>
I am from the Dallas area and all the bars here havr steel tip.
There are a few soft tip boards here and there but no leagues or
tournaments as far as I know. I have done some traveling around the
states and it does seem like the rest of the country is going to the
soft tip boards. I thought this might be because the pubs make money
off of the games. When I was in the L.A. area I found one bar with
steel tip boards and they charged you $2.00 rent for a marker to keep
score with. No, You could not bring your own marker in. I was shocked
at this. Don't they make enough off of the beer I drink? Most dart
players do drink beer don't they.
Later, Matt
,_,_,_@,_.com
I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
steel vs soft tip darts. I personally think soft tip is more of a
"game" than a "SPORT." It seems as though most Americans are getting
to lazy to score. I guess they also like being compensated for a dart
on the floor that would have "almost" won in a real sport. It is
exciting to see new people playing that would not have tried on a
bristle board. Maybe soft tip isn't all bad. Please post your responses
here in the news group.
Anonymous Dart Player
Noah I Rosenberg
wrote:
: I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
Well soft tips are also a lot more common and a lot cheaper.. I
bought a dart board for $10 and the included the board AND three shitty
darts... no bristle board goes for that cheap (well okay I have since foudn
a cork board for $15 but I doubt it'd have laster as long as my soft tips
have)
Also I've never seena bristle board in a bar anywhere, all they have
is those soft tipped dart machines anymore..
But I do plan on moving up to the steel at some point pretty soon
because I think that that is where the real darting happens.. the plastic
(soft) tips are great for beginners and the casual player though...
What about these self-healing boards that I've read about on this
newsgroup? basswood I think they are? I'm thinking about getting one of
those..
---
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Craig McGlone
>I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
>steel vs soft tip darts. I personally think soft tip is more of a
>"game" than a "SPORT." It seems as though most Americans are getting
>to lazy to score.
Speaking specifically of soft tip dart games in bars (the only place I've
played 'em)... Americans have a tendency (including myself) to
overindulge a bit while playing a few games. In that particular case soft
tip darts have an obvious advantage both as a safety measure to the
players and as an anti-lawsuit measure to the bar-owner. Nothing like a
steel tipped missile flung around a crowded bar by a tipsy dart player to
get the personal injury lawyers drooling.
> It is exciting to see new people playing that would not have tried on a bristle board. Maybe soft tip isn't all bad.
I agree. I play steel tipped at home with my dart-dedicated friends.
However soft tipped games in public gathering places give the general
public a chance to play and add an "arcade" twist with lights and sound
that attracts new players.
My Double-Ones cents,
Craig
Da Doofus
In article <4tarin$3...@news-f.iadfw.net>, , , , @, .com writes:
>Subject: Steel vs Soft
>From: , , , @, .com
>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:27:20 -0500
>
> Anonymous Dart Player
Anon,
Don't be shy. We are all friend here in a.s.d. No need to be
anon.
>I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
>steel vs soft tip darts.
Believe me, this isn't the first time that this subject came up.
>I personally think soft tip is more of a "game" than a "SPORT."
Dangerous ground here. Please define your definition the words
'game' and 'sport'.
>It seems as though most Americans are getting to lazy to score.
I think its more than that. From my perspective, most people are
'afraid' to score. They fear that they might make a mistake and
maybe either causing a different outcome of the game at hand, or
they don't want to be hassled when the mistake is made.
>I guess they also like being compensated for a dart on the floor
>that would have "almost" won in a real sport.
Electronic dart boards are become more sophisticated. I throw
soft-tip darts on occasion. Last month, I threw and every dart that
bounced out did not score.
Shoot well....
Lance Kent
Montgomery, AL
DaDo...@aol.com
Mike Meyer
I went from steel to soft, and would be glad to post a comparison if
anyone is really interested.
The main reason I went to soft is that there are no local leagues for
steel, and the local tournaments are one a month, instead of three or
four a week.
The single most annoying thing about soft is steel players with an
attitude. The more I run into player who sneer about soft, the less
likely I am to go back to steel. Others probably agree, so chill out
about it if you want people to throw steel!
> >I guess they also like being compensated for a dart on the floor
> >that would have "almost" won in a real sport.
> Electronic dart boards are become more sophisticated. I throw
> soft-tip darts on occasion. Last month, I threw and every dart that
> bounced out did not score.
My practice board has a "bounce out elimation" feature - so you can
remove the bounce outs that scored. I don't use it, as the boards I
play on in league and tournaments don't do that.
<mike
Tom Evers
Craig said:
>Speaking specifically of soft tip dart games in bars (the only place I've
>played 'em)... Americans have a tendency (including myself) to
>overindulge a bit while playing a few games. In that particular case soft
>tip darts have an obvious advantage both as a safety measure to the
>players and as an anti-lawsuit measure to the bar-owner. Nothing like a
>steel tipped missile flung around a crowded bar by a tipsy dart player to
>get the personal injury lawyers drooling.
I'd be willing to bet that a soft tip dart could put an eye out just as
easily as a steel tip dart. People that can't handle their drink should
not be drinking. Bars that have electronic boards are only trying to
squeeze more money out of the players, otherwise they would just put up
softtip boards and let you score your own games for free.
Steel tip players should despise soft tip players, but not because soft
tip is any less a game than steel tip, but because the soft tip player's
willingness to pay, because they're either too lazy or too stupid to
keep score, to play darts is causing the lack of bars in which to play
steel darts for just the cost of their drinks.
Josh Hayes
>>> com writes:
In article <4tj6n0$9...@news-f.iadfw.net> @.com writes:
>> Anon, Don't be shy. We are all friend here in a.s.d. No need to
>> be anon.
com> It's not that I am shy its just that this account is at work
com> and I did not want to generate a lot of email back to the
com> address.
Your work account goes through a PPP dialup? How lame for you.
Anyway, I don't wish to perpetuate the endless flame war between
soft-tip and steel-tip shooting -- I moderate a newsgroup about
evolutionary biology, and believe me, endless flame wars are a bore, I
KNOW - but I'd like to add a few comments about why I dislike the
existence of soft-tip darts.
Not the dart throwers; I don't blame them for the existence of the
boards, and in many places they're far more prevalent that steeltip
darts and bristle boards.
(set mild-rant-mode on;)
What I don't like about playing soft-tip: The feel of the darts. This
is probably because they're required to be considerably lighter than
I throw in steeltip; as a consequence they feel tacky and cheap, and
I've thrown expensive soft-tip darts. That's just something in my
head, but of course, all of this is subjective. I also dislike the way
they stick in the board, the way they slide a little ways from where
they hit so that the tip can stick in one of the holes. Again, it
connotes a cheap feel to me. I want my dart to stick where it lands.
I hate the sounds the majority of boards make. I'm sure that more
recent and expensive versions have more sophisticated sound
capabilities, but most places have the older boards that do nothing
but go BLOOOP BLOOOOP BLOOOOOP when you hit things; it drives me
nuts.
And a more philosophical note: It's the money. Playing in a tourney is
for me much different than farting around with the lads down at the
local, and it's different because there's something at stake:
money. If I had to put money in the board every single time I wanted
to play a game, I'd feel like I'd made an investment and had to work
hard to get something out of it. A lot of the time I don't throw darts
to work hard; I do it to relax. I really hate anything that reinforces
bar-owners with the idea that everything they provide must cost the
customer money. Want tunes? Put money in the jukebox; we're not going
to play music. Want to play darts? Put money in the dart board. This
strikes at the heart of one of the values of a bar/pub/tavern, the
place where people can interact outside home and work: the third
place.
It's not that either game is harder or easier than the other; each has
its own strategies, and two good shooters will give each other a good
game regardless of which format they play. But one of them is a pub
game, and the other is a closer relative to a slot machine. And to me,
that's the difference.
(set mild-rant-mode off;)
The fact is, if and when steeltip darts go away from where I live, I'm
not going to switch to soft tip. It's not anything I ever want to
do. But that's just me.
Josh
--
Josh Hayes jo...@cqs.washington.edu PDGA #9665
Work: http://www.cqs.washington.edu/~josh
Fun: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jahayes
.com
> Anon,
> Don't be shy. We are all friend here in a.s.d. No need to be
> anon.
It's not that I am shy its just that this account is at work and
I did not want to generate a lot of email back to the address.
>Please define your definition the words 'game' and 'sport'.
I consider a "game" to be something that does not require as
much dedication and talent as a "sport" does. Games are something that
people do because they are bored. A sport is something people do
because they enjoy it. Soft tip games just seem lazy and designed to be
easy to win. Like I said before though I am for anything that gets new
players into the sport...even if they must play a few "games" to get
here <grin>.
Once again,
Anonymous Dart Player
John Fereira
In article <31FCC2...@ctinc.com> Tom Evers <to...@ctinc.com> writes:
>Craig said:
>
>>Speaking specifically of soft tip dart games in bars (the only place I've
>>played 'em)... Americans have a tendency (including myself) to
>>overindulge a bit while playing a few games. In that particular case soft
>>tip darts have an obvious advantage both as a safety measure to the
>>players and as an anti-lawsuit measure to the bar-owner. Nothing like a
>>steel tipped missile flung around a crowded bar by a tipsy dart player to
>>get the personal injury lawyers drooling.
>
>I'd be willing to bet that a soft tip dart could put an eye out just as
>easily as a steel tip dart. People that can't handle their drink should
> not be drinking. Bars that have electronic boards are only trying to
>squeeze more money out of the players, otherwise they would just put up
>softtip boards and let you score your own games for free.
dart players put in a few quarters to play what bar owners are getting
are people that wouldn't normally approach a dart board playing the
game. My guess is that the bells and whistles of the electronic board
are drawing people that probably wouldn't even play on a steel tip
or manually scored soft tip board. The end result is that these patrons
end up staying around in the bar a little longer and buying more drinks.
The added benefit is that some of these people will become hooked on
darts and come back, both benefit for the bar and the game of darts.
>Steel tip players should despise soft tip players, but not because soft
>tip is any less a game than steel tip, but because the soft tip player's
>willingness to pay, because they're either too lazy or too stupid to
>keep score, to play darts is causing the lack of bars in which to play
>steel darts for just the cost of their drinks.
I find your comments extremely condescending and rude. You don't see
soft tip players accusing steel tip players of being cheap because they
are unwilling to spend a few quarters for a bit of entertainment.
--
John Fereira
fer...@isis.com
Isis Distributed Systems - Ithaca, NY
John Fereira
In article <4tarin$3...@news-f.iadfw.net> , , , @, .com writes:
>I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
>"game" than a "SPORT." It seems as though most Americans are getting
>to lazy to score. I guess they also like being compensated for a dart
>on the floor that would have "almost" won in a real sport. It is
>here in the news group.
group because there are often people jumping in making condescending,
holier-then-thou remarks about the game and generalization about
those that play it's ability to do arithmetic. Maybe there are many
people here that like some of the best players around such as
Paul Lim, Dave Kelley, Gerald and Lori Verrier, Wade Wilcox and many
many others play both formats and don't see the need to pit the soft
tip and steel tip games against each other.
I would be more then happy to discuss the strategies unique to playing
the soft tip format but I've done enough defending of the format here
to respond to every troll that comes along, especially those done by
an "anonymous dart player".
John Parker
> The fact is, if and when steeltip darts go away from where I live, I'm
> not going to switch to soft tip. It's not anything I ever want to
> do. But that's just me.
So the bars where you live actually have steel-tip boards in them?
That's certainly not the case here in the Detroit area. I've been
in a lot of bars, and not one of them has ever had anything other
then soft-tip.
It really doesn't make me any difference. I've played steel and
I've played soft. To me it's 6 one way and half-a-dozen the other.
I don't have any choice though, as the bars here ONLY carry soft-tip
boards.
I'm sure the reason is two-fold. One being the money fed into the
soft-tip board, the other being liability. I'm sure the bar owners
don't want sharp, pointed, potential weapon, steel-tip darts flying
around in their bar!
So, I don't have any choice. I either play soft-tip darts, or I don't
play darts at all. I love darts too much to not play at all.
-=- John -=-
jpa...@tir.com
nybo
@, .com wrote:
>
> I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
> steel vs soft tip darts. I personally think soft tip is more of a
> "game" than a "SPORT." It seems as though most Americans are getting
> to lazy to score. I guess they also like being compensated for a dart
> on the floor that would have "almost" won in a real sport. It is
> exciting to see new people playing that would not have tried on a
> bristle board. Maybe soft tip isn't all bad. Please post your responses
> here in the news group.
>
to add or are to lazy to do so. I think that there is far too much luck
involved in soft tip. A person doesn't have to keep the darts in the
board to score. I started playing steel tip in ma. and refuse to play
soft tip.
--
MZ
moo...@pipeline.com
In article <4tarin$3...@news-f.iadfw.net>, .com writes:
>I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
>steel vs soft tip darts. I personally think soft tip is more of a
>"game" than a "SPORT." It seems as though most Americans are getting
>to lazy to score. I guess they also like being compensated for a dart
>on the floor that would have "almost" won in a real sport. It is
>exciting to see new people playing that would not have tried on a
>bristle board. Maybe soft tip isn't all bad. Please post your responses
>here in the news group.
>
> Anonymous Dart Player
>
Thank you.
moo...@usa.pipline.com
\\\\\\\\\_____||||||||||____________
//////////// ||||||||||
Southern Praying Mantis & Darts...an excellent combination.
Da Doofus
>> Anon,
>> Don't be shy. We are all friend here in a.s.d. No need to be
>> anon.
> It's not that I am shy its just that this account is at work and
>I did not want to generate a lot of email back to the address.
>
>>Please define your definition the words 'game' and 'sport'.
> I consider a "game" to be something that does not require as
>much dedication and talent as a "sport" does. Games are something that
>people do because they are bored. A sport is something people do
>because they enjoy it. Soft tip games just seem lazy and designed to be
>easy to win. Like I said before though I am for anything that gets new
>players into the sport...even if they must play a few "games" to get
>here <grin>.
Well, there are a lot of soft-tip darters who show the 'dedication' that
you describe. And you do need the same 'talent' in soft-tip as you do
in steel-tip. In order to win, you have to hit what you are aiming at.
Now, about laziness in keeping score. This arguement has been
brought up before. Yes, it's true that in soft-tip, the dartboard keeps
score for you; however, if, in an X01 game, you can't do the math
to finish a game, it doesn't really matter if a machine or a human
keeps score for you.
Easy to win? I don't think so. The competition, here in Montgomery
Alabama, is just as tough in soft-tip as it is in steel-tip. It ain't
easy
to win, if you are throwing against a person better than you.
I use the baseball analogy for this. This discussion is like the
National League saying that the American League isn't real baseball
because the AL uses the Designated Hitter rule.
Josh Hayes
>>> John Parker writes:
In article <4tlvtl$h...@ramp2.tir.com> John Parker <jpa...@tir.com> writes:
John> Hi Josh,
Heya!
John> So the bars where you live actually have steel-tip boards in
John> them? That's certainly not the case here in the Detroit area.
John> I've been in a lot of bars, and not one of them has ever had
John> anything other then soft-tip.
Good God, man. And people ask me why I left Michigan. It'd be a drive,
but I am certain that there are steeltip boards in Ann Arbor, if it
matters to you.
John> It really doesn't make me any difference. I've played steel
John> and I've played soft. To me it's 6 one way and half-a-dozen
John> the other. I don't have any choice though, as the bars here
John> ONLY carry soft-tip boards.
This is a good point, and I meant to make that clear in my first post:
if soft-tip is all there is where you live, then soft-tip is what you
play. Me, I have a bristle board at home, so even if they disappear
from the pubs around here (and given the density of British and Irish
expats around here, as Clint would say, "that's not gonna happen"), I
can still play at home. That way, when you travel, take your darts:
there may well be places to play. Travel hint: do NOT try to take your
darts in your carry-on baggage. It can be uncomfortable.
John> I'm sure the reason is two-fold. One being the money fed into
John> the soft-tip board, the other being liability. I'm sure the
John> bar owners don't want sharp, pointed, potential weapon,
John> steel-tip darts flying around in their bar!
Now, others have said this, and I'd like to know if ANYONE knows - and
I mean KNOWS, not just "I heard a guy say his cousin's wife heard
that..." - of a liability suit filed as a consequence of dart-related
injury. I would think that the only real damage would be if it caught
you in the eye, and I would think that either format would be pretty
damaging in that case....
Anyone know?
RC Osgood
In article <31FCC2...@ctinc.com>,
Tom Evers <to...@ctinc.com> wrote:
>Craig said:
>
>>Speaking specifically of soft tip dart games in bars (the only place I've
>>played 'em)... Americans have a tendency (including myself) to
>>overindulge a bit while playing a few games. In that particular case soft
>>tip darts have an obvious advantage both as a safety measure to the
>>players and as an anti-lawsuit measure to the bar-owner. Nothing like a
>>steel tipped missile flung around a crowded bar by a tipsy dart player to
>>get the personal injury lawyers drooling.
>
There are zero -0- documented serious injuries by darts in bars, period.
There are LOTS of reported injuries from pool cues and cue balls. Ever hear
of a bar taking out pool because of fear of injuries?
The very false notion that steel darts are dangerous is actively fostered
and publicised by the soft-tip machine industry in order to sell their
machines and to displace steel-point darts. There are several articles in
soft-tip publications promoting this false idea. A sales manager for a
major soft-tip company even admitted to the policy, and to knowing that
steel darts are not dangerous.
Also, another myth: that steel-darts can affect a bar's insurance. WRONG! I
have never(!) heard of such a thing actually happening, although it is a
very common scare tactic by soft-tip route men trying to displace bristle
boards. Insurance companies are much more concerned about a durunk leaving
a bar and driving home drunk!
Insurance companies operate on statistics, and they know that Darts is safe
in bars!
Rick Osgood
Editor, CYBER/DARTS "The Darts Zine"
E-mail: edi...@cyberdarts.com
CYBER/DARTS: http://www.cyberdarts.com/
Phone: (713) 952-8484 or 1-800-835-8385 FAX: (713) 952-5899
CYBER/DARTS 7205 Harwin Dr., Houston, TX 77036-2117 USA
Mike Meyer
In <JOSH.96Ju...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu>, jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) wrote:
> Now, others have said this, and I'd like to know if ANYONE knows - and
> I mean KNOWS, not just "I heard a guy say his cousin's wife heard
> that..." - of a liability suit filed as a consequence of dart-related
> injury. I would think that the only real damage would be if it caught
> you in the eye, and I would think that either format would be pretty
> damaging in that case....
>
> Anyone know?
Like so much else in the world, this really doesn't matter. If the
owners think it will be a problem, then they have to deal with it.
Personally, I think soft-tip ARE safer. I talked to the local boys
club about donating a board to them, and that was all they were
willing to accept!
A third issue is maintenance. Locally, soft-tip boards are run like
video games, in that a third party (the "operator") owns them and
maintains them (and takes half the money out of them). The operators
promote leagues and tournaments, which could well be why they are
generally both more available and have more money involved than
steel-tip leagues and tournaments in those areas that have an
operator.
<mike
Mike Meyer
In <4tj6n0$9...@news-f.iadfw.net>, @.com wrote:
> I consider a "game" to be something that does not require as
> much dedication and talent as a "sport" does.
What makes you think that soft-tip requires less dedication or talent
than steel-tip?
> Games are something that people do because they are bored. A sport
> is something people do because they enjoy it.
You don't play in leagues or tournaments because you're bored. You do
it because you enjoy the sport. Which makes me think that by your
definition, soft-tip is a sport, not a game.
Actually, I play games (go, chess, conflict simulations, etc.) because
I enjoy playing games. If darts weren't an enjoyable GAME, I wouldn't
be playing.
> Soft tip games just seem lazy and designed to be easy to win.
Well, so long as both players are playing by the same rules, there
really isn't any change in how hard/easy it is to win. I'll conceede
that the electronicly scored games generally require fewer darts than
steel-tip games, both because the rules are slightly different, and
because the double/triple rings are bigger (but the bull's-eye is
SMALLER) than steel-tip standards. However, you can get electronic
boards that have the same sizes as bristle boards and enforce
steel-tip rules.
You don't find those in bars, or at least I haven't. I suspect that's
because it's to the bars and operators advantage to make the games
finish quickly.
And the cheaper soft-tip boards require you to score the darts by
hand.
<mike
Nathan Krawitz
Playability: Steel tip requires more skill, therefore to me is
more rewarding.
Cheapness: I will walk out of a bar that doesn't have steel tip.
No drinks or quarters from me.
Safety: You won't see dart shooters throw darts at each other when
(and if) they get really mad at each other. Nearly every shooter
has his/her own set of darts and cares enough about them to not
abuse them in quite that fashion. If innocent bystanders are too
close to the board, they are usually warned to move so they don't
become victims of a bounce out. Let's look at the pool shooters.
They tend to get a little more drunk on average, and are far more
likely to use the house cue. So when they get really angry, they
often end up using the cue as a weapon. Those pool players that
brought their own cue with them are less likely to get into fights
and if they did, certainly wouldn't use a cue, especially their
own.
Fun: It's all fun if done properly.
Profit motive: The bar owner typically keeps half of what goes in
the machine, but often doen't take the time to really study what
happens to the profit behind the cash register. The bar owner sees
the soft board as a low maintenence way to earn extra money, but
often loses on retail sales and doesn't realize it.
Dave
ri...@cyberdarts.com (RC Osgood) wrote:
I agree. In my 5 years of playing with steel point, I have NEVER seen
anyody use thier darts as a weapon in a bar. I play in alot of pubs,
and yes alot of us indulge while we are playing. Hey, sometimes it
helps your game (most of the time it doesn`t) and if you are a TRUE
dart player there is a unspoken rule to never throw a dart at another
person.
Like Rick said....There is alot more incidents involving pool cues and
poolballs than darts.
Happy Darting!
Dave
Dave
m...@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer) wrote:
> <mike
What....did I hear you right? You have to insert coins to play a round
of darts. Wow that is wild. I play steel point. I can walk into any
bar/club and play till my arm falls off and NO Charge. There shouldn`t
be. Lets say a group of 4 go out to chuck a few. The bar/club will
make thier money on bar sales. To think that you need to carry a
pocket full of coins in order to plat darts is repulsive. If this is
what soft tip darts is all about...the big money haul, then these
establishments who charge money to play have lost the idea behind the
game. The spirt of it all.
Dave
Da Doofus
>I think that soft tip darts are for people that either do not know how
>to add or are to lazy to do so.
I beg to differ. If you can't do basic math in either steel-tip or
soft-tip,
you are not going to win much. Granted, the electronic dart boards do
keep score for you, but how many times have you seen in steel-tip a
thrower asking what he/she scored and how much he/she has left?
Plus, in steel-tip, you can have someone chalk for you. I mean, what
is the difference between a human scorekeeper and a computerized
one?
>I think that there is far too much luck involved in soft tip. A person
>doesn't have to keep the darts in the board to score.
The older ones, yes. The newer ones are more sophisticated. If it
don't stick, it don't count.
Da Doofus
>Steel tip players should despise soft tip players, but not because soft
>tip is any less a game than steel tip, but because the soft tip player's
>willingness to pay, because they're either too lazy or too stupid to
>keep score, to play darts is causing the lack of bars in which to play
>steel darts for just the cost of their drinks.
Should us soft-tip throwers also despise bowlers because they pay to
bowl?
Your 'lazy or stupid' comment is way out of line. Like I have stated
before, if you can't keep score in your head, either in soft-tip or
steel-tip,
you are going to lose more often. I have not seen a soft-tip board
display,
"You now have 66 left...throw at Bull, then D8'. If you do have a
scorekeeper
for a steel-tip match, what is the difference between a human scorekeeper
and a computerized one?
Shoot well....
John Fereira
In article <4u4g5n$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> dado...@aol.com (Da Doofus) writes:
>In article <31FCC2...@ctinc.com>, Tom Evers <to...@ctinc.com> writes:
>
>>Steel tip players should despise soft tip players, but not because soft
>>tip is any less a game than steel tip, but because the soft tip player's
>>willingness to pay, because they're either too lazy or too stupid to
>>keep score, to play darts is causing the lack of bars in which to play
>>steel darts for just the cost of their drinks.
>
> Should us soft-tip throwers also despise bowlers because they pay to
>bowl?
The cost associated with playing soft-tip darts is a pretty weak arguement.
If someone can't afford to spend a couple of dollars for a couple of hours
of entertainment they probably shouldn't be out in bars anyway.
> Your 'lazy or stupid' comment is way out of line. Like I have stated
>before, if you can't keep score in your head, either in soft-tip or
>steel-tip,
>you are going to lose more often.
I have pointed this out many times as well. I've never seen a rebuttal.
> I have not seen a soft-tip board
>display,
>"You now have 66 left...throw at Bull, then D8'.
Actually, I have seen boards that do this. The Spectrum 2000 board will
display out shots. I don't see any difference with this then looking at
an out chart. In both cases, the shooter has to stop throwing and check
a reference to determine their next throw. In both cases, if the player
"knows their outs" they won't use it.
Josh Hayes
I am reminded, now that this thread has got going, that I once saw a
drunk and angry darter pitch his darts into what he thought was an
empty part of the bar, and when it was pointed out that there were a
couple of people sitting in a table back there, he was immediately
86ed from the bar - and banned for life from the dart league. Darters
are very aware that they play with pointy implements and always,
always, ALWAYS ensure that people don't even joke about throwing them
at people. In my experience, anyway.
The bar-ish sport I've seen cause the most injuries? Air hockey. By
far. (although I've seen people get racked pretty good by an active
foosball table, too)
Mike Meyer
In <4u14en$d...@thor.atcon.com>, krd...@atcon.com (Dave ) wrote:
> What....did I hear you right? You have to insert coins to play a round
> of darts.
No, you don't. You have to insert coins to make the board "live". It's
perfectly possible to throw darts at a board that you haven't put
money in, and score them by hand. The local boards then say "Please
insert coins to play the game." while you're doing this. If you do it
with credits on the machine, they say something about "When practice
is over, please select a game".
It's not uncommon - especially before a tournament - to see lots of
people throwing darts at dead boards. Throwing at a dead board vs. a
live board feels sufficiently different to me that I always throw at
least one practice game (half-it, cricket-countup or rotation) at a
live board before a tournament. If that makes enough of a difference
to get me into the money one time in twenty, then it's well worth it.
One advantage that at least one electronic board has over steel tip is
that I never have to look for an opponent - there's one in the board.
<mike
Mike Meyer
In <4turbp$e...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) wrote:
> Playability: Steel tip requires more skill
Can you prove this? Possibly you are making assumptions that aren't
necessarily true.
In any case, until your skill level gets to the point that you average
180 (or better :-) with three darts, your skill needs work.
<mike
Craig Reagan
Nathan Krawitz wrote:
<snip>
> Profit motive: The bar owner typically keeps half of what goes in
> the machine, but often doen't take the time to really study what
> happens to the profit behind the cash register. The bar owner sees
> the soft board as a low maintenence way to earn extra money, but
> often loses on retail sales and doesn't realize it.
Nathan,
I agree with you on all points. We have a mixture of soft/steel tips
here and I have argued the profit motive with some of the promoters of
soft tip. One thing that you should keep in mind however is that those
quarters are put into those machines with no written record, therefore
many pub owners don't report all, if any, of their take from them to the
IRS.
The way I see it most darters who are out for a night of darts have
only a certain amount of money their willing to spend. So the money
spent at the board is less money spent elsewhere. Also I can remember a
few times just before a payday with only $5 to my name I go enter a
blind draw and wind up winning enough money to buy a couple of drinks
before heading home with money still in my pocket. How difficult would
this same feat be on a soft tip board? I mean I've never really played
any soft tip darts, so how much money does a player really throw into
these machines over the course of an evening?
--
Regards,
Craig
Mike Meyer
In <320784...@msg.ti.com>, Craig Reagan <cr...@msg.ti.com> wrote:
> The way I see it most darters who are out for a night of darts have
> only a certain amount of money their willing to spend. So the money
> spent at the board is less money spent elsewhere. Also I can remember a
> few times just before a payday with only $5 to my name I go enter a
> blind draw and wind up winning enough money to buy a couple of drinks
> before heading home with money still in my pocket. How difficult would
> this same feat be on a soft tip board? I mean I've never really played
> any soft tip darts, so how much money does a player really throw into
> these machines over the course of an evening?
You don't put very much in them in a tournament, so it's actually
pretty likely - assuming you can bum the "not very much".
Last nights tournament cost me all of US$.75 - because we washed out
quickly. The most expensive possible tournament is winning all but
your next-to last match in 3 games at US$.25 per game, losing that to
the winners of the losers bracket in three games, then the next match
taking three games. That's either 5 or 6 matches in most of the local
tournaments, meaning US$3 or less.
Most of the people I play soft tip with would be willing to spot
someone they trusted those quarters.
The downside is that the last position in the money usually pays each
player somewhere between the match cost and the match + game costs.
On the other hand, I don't think that's possible at all in Alameda -
the steel-tip tournaments died for lack of players, which was caused
by the low add and frequency compared to the soft-tip tournaments.
<mike
Josh Hayes
>>> Mike Meyer writes:
In article <19960806.7...@contessa.phone.net> m...@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer) writes:
Mike> One advantage that at least one electronic board has over
Mike> steel tip is that I never have to look for an opponent -
Mike> there's one in the board.
*blink*
What?
So, what, the guy who finishes last in the tournament gets locked in
the cabinet?
If you mean by this that the board keeps score if you play a game of
half-it (or "hit or miss", or any of a number of games), that hardly
constitutes having an "opponent". If, on the other hand, you mean that
the board will "pretend" you have an opponent and score a virtual
opponent, that sounds interesting. Weird, but interesting.
to...@pop3.cris.com
Mike Meyer wrote:
>
> In <4turbp$e...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) wrote:
> > Playability: Steel tip requires more skill
>
but prefer steel. The darts are too light for my comfort so I don't
throw them as well..the targets are bigger so generally easier to
hit...maybe a wash. The first time I played soft I tossed a TON-40
thinking Ha! then watched my opponent score a TON-50 by hitting that
HUGE center thing. I soon learned soft and steel are played very
differently. Both can be a lot of fun. For some reason though, folks
seem less intimidated by the electronic kind...especially the ladies.
I've asked good soft shooters to play a game of steel and found that
some that won't even try.
Mike Meyer
In <3207CC...@pop3.cris.com>, "to...@pop3.cris.com" <to...@pop3.cris.com> wrote:
> > In <4turbp$e...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) wrote:
> > > Playability: Steel tip requires more skill
> Steel vs soft will rage on as long as both are around. I've played both
> but prefer steel. The darts are too light for my comfort so I don't
> throw them as well..
I throw my soft-tip darts - complete with plastic tip - at bristle
boards. I win doing that, to. This solves that problem.
> the targets are bigger so generally easier to hit...
This varies from board to board, with the double and triple rings
running between the size you see on bristle boards up to about twice
that width. You can find boards with a bull that duplicates a bristle
board, but larger is more common.
> The first time I played soft I tossed a TON-40
> thinking Ha! then watched my opponent score a TON-50 by hitting that
> HUGE center thing.
Again, this depends on the board. Some boards have no bullseye, and
so score 50 points on that HUGE center thing. Some do, but score 50 on
the entire bull anyway. Some do and score as per steel-tip rules.
I suspect a lot of this is from the first boards, where making things
small enough for the London board or a bullseye was either impossible
or incredibly expensive. Personally, I'd like to lose that legacy and
see soft-tip games move to the London board. Since faster games mean
more money for the bar/operator, I wouldn't bet on it.
> I soon learned soft and steel are played very differently.
The change in sizes, pointing and rules causes the percentages to come
out differently, but the games are similar. Cricket soft-tip is played
with a 25/50 bull, so the percentage is on the T20 instead of the bull
for points (N.B. - with a weaker player, it's not uncommon to point
before winning to stretch the game out and get more for you $'s. It
took a while for me to get used to it, but it does make sense.) If
the entire bull were worth 50 points on a steal-tip board, you would
probably be better off aiming at it instead of T20 on those as well.
<mike
Mike Meyer
In <4u4g5n$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dado...@aol.com (Da Doofus) wrote:
> if you can't keep score in your head, either in soft-tip or
> I have not seen a soft-tip board display,
> "You now have 66 left...throw at Bull, then D8'.
I have. Your original comment still applies, as blindly following
their advice is a good way to lose games. The boards don't take the
current game into account, don't know how well you throw darts, and
don't know what your good numbers are.
<mike
Mike Meyer
In <JOSH.96A...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu>, jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) wrote:
> >>> Mike Meyer writes:
> In article <19960806.7...@contessa.phone.net> m...@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer) writes:
> Mike> One advantage that at least one electronic board has over
> Mike> steel tip is that I never have to look for an opponent -
> Mike> there's one in the board.
> *blink*
> What?
> the board will "pretend" you have an opponent and score a virtual
> opponent, that sounds interesting. Weird, but interesting.
Exactly. I like turning on the "Robo-Rival" (the manufacturer's name
for the feature) on practice games, as it makes it more interesting.
You get to choose a level of play when you start the game. I forget
exactly how many levels because I hit the same one - and not the
highest - regularly, but I think it's 7. It runs hot - and cold - just
like real players. You can even use it along with real opponents.
<mike
John Fereira
In article <JOSH.96A...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu> jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:
>>>> Mike Meyer writes:
>In article <19960806.7...@contessa.phone.net> m...@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer) writes:
>
> Mike> One advantage that at least one electronic board has over
> Mike> steel tip is that I never have to look for an opponent -
> Mike> there's one in the board.
>
>*blink*
>
>What?
>
>the cabinet?
>
>If you mean by this that the board keeps score if you play a game of
>half-it (or "hit or miss", or any of a number of games), that hardly
>the board will "pretend" you have an opponent and score a virtual
>opponent, that sounds interesting. Weird, but interesting.
simulate an opponant. The Spectrum 2000 board does this and can be
set for a wide range of skill levels. This board has four cricket
variations, all the possible 01 games from 101 to 1501, half-it, and
several other games as well. It uses a 386 processor running dos in
rom and a VGA monitor for the graphics. It also will display recommended
out shots for the 01 games.
The board is very good at detecting bounced darts (it doesn't score them)
or darts which have deflected off a previous dart and has very narrow
"wires". These are the boards that are used in the Medalist league (see
the most recent issue of Bullseye News about their $375,000 tournament
in Las Vegas).
Mike Meyer
In <4u9ur4$g...@transfer.stratus.com>, fer...@isis.com (John Fereira) wrote:
> There are at least a couple of vendors electronic boards that will
> simulate an opponant. The Spectrum 2000 board does this and can be
> set for a wide range of skill levels. This board has four cricket
> variations, all the possible 01 games from 101 to 1501, half-it, and
> several other games as well. It uses a 386 processor running dos in
> rom and a VGA monitor for the graphics. It also will display recommended
> out shots for the 01 games.
Did you know they've introduced a home version of this board? The VGA
monitor has been replaced by a big LED display so it can be
wall-mounted, and all the games that depend on the graphics display
are gone. It's also lost everything but the 01 & cricket games from
the Robo-Rival (boo). There's an expansion slot for cartridges, so
they may come back. It's the official practice board for Medalist.
> The board is very good at detecting bounced darts (it doesn't score them)
> or darts which have deflected off a previous dart and has very narrow
> "wires". These are the boards that are used in the Medalist league (see
> the most recent issue of Bullseye News about their $375,000 tournament
> in Las Vegas).
I hadn't noticed it being good at detecting bounced darts - they seem
to score fairly regularly locally. Possibly that's something the
operator can set internally, but if that's the case, they certainly
weren't set that way at the zone finals last month.
<mike
John Fereira
the SF bay area and actually performed some upgrades on about a dozen
of these boards. There is an adjustment that can be made which senses
the time which the dart actually hits the segment and how long that
pressure exists. It's "safer" to adjust it such that pretty much anything
that hits the segment will score verson adjusting it such that a dart
that legitimately scores doesn't count.
BTW, I played in two of the zone finals in San Jose (took a 1st place
in one of the events) and the "World Championship" tournament in Reno
about a year and a half ago. One of the guys that I used to play against
(Jim Nolan) occasionally in the region has his picture in the latest
issue of Bullseye News as well. I also drew Jim as a 501 trios partner in
a blind draw a couple of years ago and have about a 2' tall 1st place
trophy on my shelf as a result. We played well together. He kept on
throwing these real high scores and I kept on hitting some good outs.
lh...@tradelogic.com
@, .com wrote:
>
> I thought this news group would have a lot of discussion about
> steel vs soft tip darts.
It seems as though this message was sucessful in what anon wanted to do.
There is a lot of talk about steel vs. soft going on here. It is nice
to see that this flame war is finally longer than whatever the war about
the Olympics and O.J. is. At least this talk is about darts. Does
anyone have any great stories about leages or tournaments. My team lost
tues by a score of 11 to 4.(Pretty bad) My Mon. team won last week 10
to 0.(Not so bad)
Later, Matt
(Long live STEEL)
Mike Meyer
In <3208DF...@tradelogic.com>, lh...@tradelogic.com wrote:
> There is a lot of talk about steel vs. soft going on here. It is nice
> to see that this flame war is finally longer than whatever the war about
> the Olympics and O.J. is.
Flame war? It don't see many flames, and it doesn't seem much like an
argument. Things have been mostly polite, and it's largely been a
discussion about the differences between the two, and it appears that
more than one steel-tip players has learned things about the soft tip
boards that they weren't aware of [I'm not faulting them - they don't
play soft tip, and shouldn't be expected to be familiar with the
latest toys available in an evolving area. Steel-tip has matured, and
the rules and boards change slowly; I'd hope that all soft-tip players
are aware of the rules and board used in steel-tip, but not about the
latest technology in anti-bounce darts, etc.]
<mike
John Fereira
In article <320784...@msg.ti.com> Craig Reagan <cr...@msg.ti.com> writes:
>Nathan Krawitz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Profit motive: The bar owner typically keeps half of what goes in
>> the machine, but often doen't take the time to really study what
>> happens to the profit behind the cash register. The bar owner sees
>> the soft board as a low maintenence way to earn extra money, but
>> often loses on retail sales and doesn't realize it.
>
>Nathan,
> I agree with you on all points. We have a mixture of soft/steel tips
>here and I have argued the profit motive with some of the promoters of
>soft tip. One thing that you should keep in mind however is that those
>quarters are put into those machines with no written record, therefore
>many pub owners don't report all, if any, of their take from them to the
>IRS.
practices of pub owners regarding their electronic dart board installations.
I know that there are quite a few different vendors and different
situations that are involved in placing a electronic board in a pub so
I'd like to see some concrete evidence to back some of these claims.
> The way I see it most darters who are out for a night of darts have
>only a certain amount of money their willing to spend. So the money
>spent at the board is less money spent elsewhere. Also I can remember a
>few times just before a payday with only $5 to my name I go enter a
>blind draw and wind up winning enough money to buy a couple of drinks
>before heading home with money still in my pocket. How difficult would
>this same feat be on a soft tip board? I mean I've never really played
>any soft tip darts, so how much money does a player really throw into
>these machines over the course of an evening?
It seems that a lot of people here that haven't really played soft
tip darts are quick to make claims about how difficult the game is,
the math skills of those that play it, and a variety of other claims
about the use of soft-tip boards.
In any case, to answer your question regarding the coast associated
when playing the game.
First of all, I have played in a number of different leagues and they all
have the different practices when it comes to what it costs. In one
of the leagues that I played in (a league that ran several divisions
and formats four nights a week) the home bar supplied the quarters for
both teams. Each player, however, contributed $3 a night in league fees.
On another league, the players only supplied the quarters. In that league
13 games were played, each player playing in at most five games. In
the most expensive scenario a player might have to put in $1.50. There
was an addition $3 weekly league fee.
On a third league, there was an initial $15 fee to play in the league but
no weekly fees. There were quite a number of different formats but the
most expensive format would require $3.75 in quarters per night.
As far as leagues go I would consider the cost pretty trivial.
For tournaments, at least the blind draws, you're going to share the
cost of the games with your partner. One of the places that I played
in regularly used to draw on the average about 36 players. It was
a double elimination format, one game each round. If my team went
four rounds it cost me a dollar. If I went five I was probably in the
money rounds.
For just an evening of just shooting around a lot of places will adopt
an ettiquite similar to playing pool, that is, the challenger pays for
the game. I used to spend a lot of time just practicing by myself and
rarely recall when I spent more then $5 in quarters.
I don't consider the cost of playing on an electronic board to be
extravagent. If I'm down to my last $5 maybe I shouldn't be going
out to a bar.
Josh Hayes
>>> lhcr writes:
lhcr> Does anyone have
lhcr> any great stories about leages or tournaments. My team lost
lhcr> tues by a score of 11 to 4.(Pretty bad) My Mon. team won last
lhcr> week 10 to 0.(Not so bad)
Well, this gives me an opportunity to bring up a topic I'm interested
in: how do various leagues structure their match play? I've played in
two different formats, each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm
interested in how others do it.
FWIW, here's how I've done it:
In Austin, we had 6-10 people on a team (yeah, now it seems like a
lot), and played 6 games of singles -- 2 301 games, women's cricket,
open cricket, and two more 301 -- two triples 601 games, and finished
with a doubles 501 game, doubles cricket, and doubles 501. Max number
of games played by a player: three.
In Seattle, we have 4-6 member teams and play lots more games: a team
801 game, then 8 301 singles games, 6 501 doubles, and 4 cricket
doubles (hmm...is that right? Doesn't seem right somehow) -- anyway,
it's a total of 19 games, and a player can only play in a max of 7
games not counting the team game. A LOT more darts; matches can take
upwards of three hours if they're bad, and I've played 'em in less
than 1.5 hours, too.
How do YOU do it?
John Fereira
Roger Morris
In our league,
A league
12 singles 301, 4 doubles 501, 4 doubles cricket, 1 team game.
B league
8 singles 301, 4 doubles 501, 4 doubles cricket, 1 team game.
This was setup for a four person team. You can't play with the same
doubles partner more than twice.
roger
On 8 Aug 1996, Josh Hayes
wrote:
> Date: 08 AUG 1996 17:10:40 GMT
> From: Josh Hayes <jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu>
> Newgroups: alt.sport.darts
> Subject: League match formats
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Morris ro...@efn.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Magliery
In article <JOSH.96A...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu>,
jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) wrote:
> Well, this gives me an opportunity to bring up a topic I'm interested
> in: how do various leagues structure their match play? I've played in
> two different formats, each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm
> interested in how others do it.
Our local team league nights go like this:
team 601 (4 players per team)
2x 501 singles (played simultaneously)
2x cricket doubles ( " )
2x 501 doubles ( " )
2x cricket singles ( " )
Our league terminology is that a "game" consists of best 2-of-3 "legs". A
"leg" is what most other people in the universe would call a "game". So
in one night there can be anywhere from 18 to 27 legs. Each player (there
may be 4-6 on a team) must play in at least 2 and at most 4 games, and so
may play anywhere from 4 to 12 legs in one night.
We have mixed triples and a new doubles league that have slightly
different setups, but I don't know exactly what they are. Perhaps someone
else around here can answer.
mag
--
.---o Tom Maglierygry, Research Programmer .---o
`-O-. NCSA, 605 E. Springfield (217) 333-3198 `-O-.
o---' Champaign, IL 61820 O- m...@ncsa.uiuc.edu o---'
Brad Garner
>
> Also I've never seena bristle board in a bar anywhere, all they have
>is those soft tipped dart machines anymore..
>
Plastic darts are very common at bars where the typical beer is Bud.
Go to a bar that has some decent Guinness on tap and you will find a
bristle board.
Alex Caemmerer
In NYC for the NYDO Tuesday Night league we play teams of up to 9. We
play three legs, each player can play once in each leg. The first leg
is six games of singles 501, SIDO. The second leg is 3 pairs of doubles
cricket, with 3 teams playing. And the third leg is 3 games of doubles
501, DIDO also with three teams playing. We score one point for each
game of singles and cricket and two points for each doubles 501 for a
total of 18 points per night. The league standings are done by points
scored, not by match won/lost so there is a reason to play all 15 games.
We try to start at 8:00pm and usually finish 11:30-midnight. I am
currently on a B division team and I understand that the A-division uses
a similar format but plays more games. There is also a Monday night
league but they use smaller teams and play more games.
cheers
- Alex
"It ain't what one doesn't know that makes one ignorant. It's what one
knows for sure that just ain't so."
str...@mail.accent.net
jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) wrote:
>>>> lhcr writes:
> lhcr> Does anyone have
> lhcr> any great stories about leages or tournaments. My team lost
> lhcr> tues by a score of 11 to 4.(Pretty bad) My Mon. team won last
> lhcr> week 10 to 0.(Not so bad)
>Well, this gives me an opportunity to bring up a topic I'm interested
>in: how do various leagues structure their match play? I've played in
>two different formats, each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm
>interested in how others do it.
>FWIW, here's how I've done it:
>In Austin, we had 6-10 people on a team (yeah, now it seems like a
>lot), and played 6 games of singles -- 2 301 games, women's cricket,
>open cricket, and two more 301 -- two triples 601 games, and finished
>with a doubles 501 game, doubles cricket, and doubles 501. Max number
>of games played by a player: three.
>In Seattle, we have 4-6 member teams and play lots more games: a team
>801 game, then 8 301 singles games, 6 501 doubles, and 4 cricket
>doubles (hmm...is that right? Doesn't seem right somehow) -- anyway,
>it's a total of 19 games, and a player can only play in a max of 7
>games not counting the team game. A LOT more darts; matches can take
>upwards of three hours if they're bad, and I've played 'em in less
>than 1.5 hours, too.
>How do YOU do it?
>Josh
>--
> Josh Hayes jo...@cqs.washington.edu PDGA #9665
> Work: http://www.cqs.washington.edu/~josh
> Fun: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jahayes
In Montreal,Que, we have 2 four man teams play 6 games of 701
per week, at the end of the season we have playoffs, the ones with the
most wins enter the playoffs ect......
Dave
So few words.....But to the point, no pun intended.
A true Dartplayer......Cheers to you!
Andre Levesque
In the leagues I have played in so far (2) we have had up to 16 teams
of 4-6 players. Once a week we would play a set number of games(5 or 7)
against one of the other teams, following a round robin style schedule.
Games would start at 501 or 701 and players would alternate turns at the
board until someone would double out and finish the game.
Both leagues would keep a record of darts shot at the board by all
players(when team score was above 100). Games won finishers and
winning scores were also kept. The teams and players were then compared
using averages, high score, number of tons and number of games finished.
An evening would start arount 7:00 7:30 and finish around 10:00 to 10:30.
André Levesque
Ottawa, Canada
Craig Reagan
--
Regards,
Craig
Mike Meyer wrote:
>
> In <4turbp$e...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) wrote:
> > Playability: Steel tip requires more skill
>
> necessarily true.
>
> In any case, until your skill level gets to the point that you average
> 180 (or better :-) with three darts, your skill needs work.
>
> <mike
This is obviously one of the most controversial arguments in the steel vs soft
tip debate. In talking with several of my steel tip throwing friends they all
claim that they have great success in soft tip tournaments.
^^^^^
I have also played games on steel tip boards against supposedly excellent soft
tip players and was not impressed. Don't get me wrong though, we have a couple
of former soft tippers in our league and "after a while" they have become
excellent steel tippers.
From what I've "seen" the "average" steel tip player has a higher skill level.
Regards,
Craig
I95RKnippl
The League I shoot in (Western Maryland Dart Assoc.) has 6-10 person team.
First, we shoot 3 sets of 501 doubles, 2 out of 3. Then, 6 singles of
2@501, 2@301, and 2@Cricket, one game. Finally, we play 3 sets of Cricket
doubles, best 2 out of 3. this usally takes about 2.5 - 3 hours to play.
sometimes longer dependong on the divsion.
Rick K
WMDA
Da Doofus
In article <JOSH.96A...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu>,
jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:
>
>Well, this gives me an opportunity to bring up a topic I'm interested
>in: how do various leagues structure their match play? I've played in
>two different formats, each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm
>interested in how others do it.
Here is how the league format is set up in Montgomery, Alabama
2 best-of-3 matches of 3 501 doubles
2 best-of-3 matches of 3 Cricket
4 3-game matches of Singles, 1st game is 501, second is Cricket,
the third being cork calls, either 501 or Cricket
You have a possible range from 16 to 24 games. Matches are usually
over in less than 2 1/2 hours.
Shoot well....
Lance Kent
Montgomery, AL
DaDo...@aol.com
Nathan Krawitz
Steel tip requires more skill. I can't "prove" it, but here's my
argument. The big scoring areas -- doubles, triples, bull's-eye,
are larger on a soft tip board. This allows a shooter to get
complacent with his/her level since a reasonable amount of success
has been reached. There is not ENOUGH incentive to try harder. I
see plenty of soft tippers with various pins and patches, such as
6, 7, 8 dart games in 301, which is only reached rarely by the BEST
steel tippers and not just another feat by a very good soft tipper.
Hitting 9 marks has gotten so easy, that there are special
categories for different ways of doing it. Once again it must be
fairly commonplace since I see the pins and patches all over.
If you expect to improve your game, you must be challenged by
better players. They make you try harder and smarter. Although
you are faced by the same challenges by playing other soft tippers,
you are BOTH handicapped by playing on a board which is designed to
make great scoring easier and commonplace. It doesn't make you the
best shooter you can be. Imagine if the golf pros all could play
from the Ladies tees. Their scores would all be better, but it
doesn't make them better shooters. In fact, this levels the
playing field so that the average player can sneak up and win a
tournament more often than he/she deserves. Sure it would be
exciting to see if another sub-60 round can be netted. Oh, look!
That's my fourth eagle today! And never being challenged by the
longer tees means you never face the extra challenges of having to
cut dog legs just so, or having 220 for the par three instead of
155. Different game from back there.
Darts is the same. Smaller targets on the board means longer
yardage on the fairways. You get forced to raise your game to a
higher level, like it or not. As you face more of these challenges
and suffer the near hits that you KNOW would have been in on a soft
tip board, you appreciate how difficult it is and feel better when
you do accomplish the feat.
Mike Meyer
In <320d2d9f...@news.magicnet.net>, bga...@magicnet.net (Brad Garner) wrote:
> Plastic darts are very common at bars where the typical beer is Bud.
> Go to a bar that has some decent Guinness on tap and you will find a
> bristle board.
If I'd ever had a decent Guinness, that might be a possibility.
Unfortunately, bars tend to serve beers from large breweries (and I
consider Samual Adams to be a large brewery). Good beers are available
in better resteraunts and at the brew site, and that's about it.
I have heard that Guiness isn't served properly in american bars, and
fixing that does wonders for the flavor.
<mike
Mike Meyer
In <4up0pm$6...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) wrote:
> Steel tip requires more skill. I can't "prove" it, but here's my
> argument. The big scoring areas -- doubles, triples, bull's-eye,
> are larger on a soft tip board.
This isn't always true. In fact, the variation in the boards is one
of my major complaints about soft tip darts. But obviously, playing on
boards with smaller high-scoring targets will leave you with better
skills. Which is why I keep one with smaller targets in the house :-).
> I see plenty of soft tippers with various pins and patches, such as
> 6, 7, 8 dart games in 301, which is only reached rarely by the BEST
> steel tippers and not just another feat by a very good soft tipper.
Check the game - they could well be playing open in/out.
> Hitting 9 marks has gotten so easy, that there are special
> categories for different ways of doing it.
As far as I know, there are only two: 9 marks and white horse
(noticably harder than 9 marks). A white horse qualifies you for a 9
mark pin.
In the few leagues I'm familiar with, soft tip leagues grade things a
bit finer than the steel tip leagues. There are player rankings from 1
to 15 or so, and all flights have team point limits, and most have
per-player point limits as well. This means that it's possible for
less talented players to do well in their flight, meaning you have
more of them, thus pulling the average down - and probably inflating
the expectations of the better players.
<mike
Dartoid
Have a Guinness in Dublin and forever after you'll just smile quietly when
someone suggests you can find a good one anywhere else. As for steel vs.
soft (and game vs. sport), I learned a long time ago to stay out of these
debates.
John Fereira
In article <4up0pm$6...@news-e2d.gnn.com> NKra...@gnn.com (Nathan Krawitz) writes:
>Steel tip requires more skill. I can't "prove" it, but here's my
>argument. The big scoring areas -- doubles, triples, bull's-eye,
>complacent with his/her level since a reasonable amount of success
>6, 7, 8 dart games in 301, which is only reached rarely by the BEST
>steel tippers and not just another feat by a very good soft tipper.
>fairly commonplace since I see the pins and patches all over.
opposed to soft tip for a change. However, there seems to be a factor
that is missing in your argument. An opponent. If darts were all
about the number of "achievements" one could achieve that would be
one thing but it's not.
You can measure your dart playing skill in a number of ways but I
believe the most important is how often you can win games. Comparing
skill levels between soft tip and steel tip might be interesting in
theory but when it comes down to a competition the only thing that
matters is ones skill level compared to ones opponent's. I've got
plenty of pins and patches from playing in soft tip dart leagues but I
am more proud of the trophies that I've won by from winning (or at least
placing) in leagues and tournaments. As long as a player cares about
winning there is plenty of incentive to improve despite the number of
pins and patches they've accumulated. This goes for either format.
A bullseye could be the size of a dime or as big as a extra large
pizza and the one that is going to be able to hit it the most often
will generally be the one with the most skill.
Finally, I thought I'd share an anecdote about achievments and skill levels.
I was warming up for a soft tip tournament a few years ago and was asked if
I wanted to play a game of cricket. I lost the cork and shot second. After
four rounds I had all my numbers closed, a mark in the bull, and enough
points such that a double bull for my first dart in the fifth round would
have won the game and would have been my highest achievement (winning a
cricket game in the least amount of darts) I had ever thrown. My opponent,
a woman, threw T-18, Double-Bull, Double-Bull and the game was over. I
never got a chance to achieve my best cricket game ever. I also lost the
game.
>If you expect to improve your game, you must be challenged by
>better players. They make you try harder and smarter. Although
>you are faced by the same challenges by playing other soft tippers,
>you are BOTH handicapped by playing on a board which is designed to
>make great scoring easier and commonplace. It doesn't make you the
>best shooter you can be.
I disagree. If soft tip darts is so easy a mistake is going to
cost you more. A soft tip player would have to be more consistant
in order to win.
John Fereira
In article <19960813.7...@contessa.phone.net> m...@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer) writes:
>
>In the few leagues I'm familiar with, soft tip leagues grade things a
>bit finer than the steel tip leagues. There are player rankings from 1
>to 15 or so, and all flights have team point limits, and most have
>per-player point limits as well. This means that it's possible for
>less talented players to do well in their flight, meaning you have
>more of them, thus pulling the average down - and probably inflating
>the expectations of the better players.
It should be noted that Mike is talking about the Medalist league here
which uses a rating system to rank players. A team will have a maximum
combined rank in order to play in a particular flight (or division). For
example, I played in a flight that had, I think, a 14 maximum ranking. I
had a "9" ranking and had two beginners, both with "2" rankings on my team.
When I competed in the "Medalist Worlds" a couple of years ago one of the
players with the "2" ranking teamed up with a couple of higher ranked players
from Hawaii and entered one of the events. They made it into the finals
and were up on the finals stage along with players such as Paul Lim, Gerrald
and Lori Verrier, and Andy Green. They won their final match and she now
has a trophy about 4.5' tall and won a considerable amount of money.
John Donahue
On 08 Aug 1996 17:10:40 GMT, jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes)
wrote:
>>>> lhcr writes:
>
>Well, this gives me an opportunity to bring up a topic I'm interested
>in: how do various leagues structure their match play? I've played in
>two different formats, each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm
>interested in how others do it.
>
I've played in two different leagues in Puerto Rico and by far the the
enjoyable is as follows:
701 team game (4 players)
2 doubles slop cricket
2 doubles call cricket
2 doubles fly in 501
2 doubles double in 501
2 singles slop cricket
2 singles call cricket
2 singles fly in 301
2 singles double in 301
All games are best 2 of 3 except for the team game. We play on two
boards so the night isn't really that long.
Cheers,
John Donahue
Nathan Krawitz
John,
You argued two of my points.
The first was about the achievements. Those achievements were to
be assumed to be under sanctioned conditions. It doesn't matter
how many times you have done these things, you only get the
official award when it is an official game. Bowlers have scored
300 and gotten certificates for it. They don't get certificates
for doing it in practice.
The second is merely a difference of opinions and I will respect
your opposition. You wrote of a cricket game that was your best
ever. Good competition begets good shooting. My argument just
says that your 12-or-so dart game would have translated to 18 on a
steel tip board. Her game would have been about 16 or 15. A 30
dart steel tip might translate to 20 on an electronic board. It is
possible that you two shooting on a steel board would have been a
lot further apart. This is what I meant about leveling the field
for all. You still have to beat a better opponent, but the amount
over your game you have to throw to beat that better player is less
than on a steel board.
A positive way to look at your game is count how many marks per
dart/turn you earned. Eight is perfect for cricket, but a 60 dart
game can have you averaging 4 hits per turn if your opponent is
also good. A 20 dart game averages less than 4 hits per turn and
would actually be a worse game.
I found myself losing to a lady a couple years ago throwing 301
double in/double out. She won the diddle and got on her first
turn. I got on the next. I was poised to win in 17 or 18 darts,
but she had gone out right in front of me in 16 darts. Instead of
getting upset that I could have equalled or beaten my league best
ever, I just had to be satisfied with how well I had done just to
be there and realize that I was beaten and I didn't just give the
game away.
Good shooting.
Konrad Vandegaer
Hello Rick,
I'm from the other end of the state (Baltimore Area Darting Assn.).
We have 4-6 person teams and play 4 singles 301, 4 singles cricket,
2 doubles 501, 2 doubles cricket (all best-of-3) and a single game of
4-person 701. This takes us 2.5-4 hrs. depending on the division.
Konrad