Solar design Challenge - off-grid workshop
appsol
at least solar tempered. The building site has reasonable south
exposure. I would like to arrive on a random winter morning and find
the inside temperature at or above 10deg C. Additional heat would come
from a wood stove.
The problem is how to get enough thermal mass !
I want a wood floor, because it's nicer to work with, and I want a
crawl space underneath. I'm tempted to try a large box of rocks under
the floor, but am worried about the number of PV panels required to
move the hot air down to the crawl space.
Since the building may be un-occupied for weeks on end, I'd like to
avoid the use of large amounts water that might cause problems with a
hard freeze.
Some specs.
- 45.5N, 65.9W
- 4700 heating degree days (C), 1950 hours of bright sunshine
- 22'x30', with the long axis facing south, single story with a loft
- there will be a 1.5 story 10'x6' air lock entry/sunspace in the
center of the south wall
- walls will be R30 or greater, shallow foundation w/ R20 horizontal &
vertical
- roof insulation R40 or greater
It might be interesting to build air-heaters for the south wall or
roof space.
There is also a possibility of building a brick wall in the center
(woodstove).
I'd be interested in any suggestions you might offer !
thanks,
chris
Josepi
and manipulate and keep clean.
If the water tanks ar mounted in the ground with enough mass and proper
thermal sensing and controls are used it will never freeze. You may have to
stop using the heat from it at a minimum temperature though. depending where
you are located, geographically you may not get any sun in December and/or
January. A glycol solution would be best in order to guarantee no freezing.
Back-up heat and water may be the best so you can forget about it once set
up.
"appsol" <apps...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:de55fca4-4f5e-4158...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Morris Dovey
> I'm building an off-grid workshop, and want it to be solar heated or
> at least solar tempered. The building site has reasonable south
> exposure. I would like to arrive on a random winter morning and find
> the inside temperature at or above 10deg C. Additional heat would come
> from a wood stove.
Ok, by way of encouragement, here's a completely solar heated shop that
hasn't been cooler than 18�C since construction:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
If you click on the photo, you can have a look at the construction used.
> The problem is how to get enough thermal mass !
Hm. That's only a problem if you make it a problem.
> I want a wood floor, because it's nicer to work with, and I want a
> crawl space underneath. I'm tempted to try a large box of rocks under
> the floor, but am worried about the number of PV panels required to
> move the hot air down to the crawl space.
How about a 22'x30' box? I think your fondness for the wood floor is, in
this context, in conflict with your desire to store heat reasonably. An
insulated 6" slab would provide an excellent thermal flywheel, and a 12V
ceiling fan would be adequate to deliver the heat to the floor, prevent
stratification, and improve comfort levels year-round.
Cushioned mats would provide even more comfort than wood in areas where
you'll work standing.
> Since the building may be un-occupied for weeks on end, I'd like to
> avoid the use of large amounts water that might cause problems with a
> hard freeze.
Solar heating doesn't require occupancy to work. :)
> Some specs.
> - 45.5N, 65.9W
Within walking distance of Darlings Island Bike Shop?
> - 4700 heating degree days (C), 1950 hours of bright sunshine
> - 22'x30', with the long axis facing south, single story with a loft
> - there will be a 1.5 story 10'x6' air lock entry/sunspace in the
> center of the south wall
> - walls will be R30 or greater, shallow foundation w/ R20 horizontal &
> vertical
> - roof insulation R40 or greater
That all sounds good to me.
>
> It might be interesting to build air-heaters for the south wall or
> roof space.
If you put 'em in the wall, snow reflection will boost your thermal
input considerably. If you put 'em on the roof, you'll lose that boost
(and they won't do much for you if they become snow-covered), and you'll
need to expend energy to bring the heat down to where you want it. I
suggest sticking to panels in the south wall.
> There is also a possibility of building a brick wall in the center
> (woodstove).
I'd suggest postponing the woodstove until the sun goes out. If you
build carefully and insulate as you've described, you won't need the
wood stove.
> I'd be interested in any suggestions you might offer !
There's a gentleman over in your area who builds solar heating panels -
I don't know anything about him or about how well his panels perform,
but I'd probably be worthwhile to track him down and get his suggestions.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
schooner
"appsol" <apps...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:de55fca4-4f5e-4158...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.atlanticenergy.ca/projects/WayneLangilleSolarAirCollectors/tabid/72/Default.aspx
You might want to contact Wayne. His new shop has solar panels as well as a
heat pump for heating. Located over in NS.
Ecnerwal
Wood floor can be over a concrete slab - but concrete (and rocks, etc)
is actually a poor thermal storage as opposed to water, so little point
in it. Still, for simplicity of getting a regular construction crew to
build it, concrete slab with radiant heat tubing (filled with
antifreeze) is probably the one least likely to confuse the workers. Set
it down a bit and put your wood floor over it.
However, if you are putting a wood floor on top, and insulating under,
and are willing to involve the space/excavation/insulation (or need to
for foundation purposes anyway) an insulated block of dirt in the
crawlspace with radiant heat tubing and antifreeze is probably the most
cost-effective method (dirt is much cheaper than concrete, and stores
heat pretty much the same) IMHO. Run plenty of large bore (less pumping
head loss) PEX tubing through it and you have a heat storage system.
Pumping water is usually far less power/bother than the sort of
foolishness you have to go through to get air/mass coupling with ducts
and fans. Air collectors still make plenty of sense for getting heat
while the sun shines, and can also be coupled to the water system for
transporting heat to storage.
"Better storage" (more compact, mostly - but also adding the possibility
of leaks, freezes, etc) would (IMHO) start to involve actual insulated
water storage - be it barrels of water you blow air over (more power, I
think, from my research, as with other air/mass schemes) or a large
insulated tank you pump water through. Large volume water storage is
inefficient to put antifreeze in - you can use antifreeze in collector
loops and park the storage where it would not normally freeze anyway
(underground) and/or monitor storage tank temperature. If temperature
drops too low (sort of in order):
sound an alarm
have it make a call
have it fire up some sort of backup heat
have it open a big drain valve
FWIW - I built a large workshop. I thought it was going to be offgrid.
By the time I had collected enough money to put in a power system barely
adequate to power it offgrid, I had more money collected than it
required to place it on-grid. You situation may vary, but the price of
not overly dependable 50 amp off-grid service actually turned out to be
~$5000 more than 400 amp on-grid service.
If, as I suspect from your location, you get long periods of cloudy
weather when it is also cold, too much dependence on solar schemes
worked out for places like Arizona (where a week without sun is all but
unheard of) can bite you. For short-term thermal mass, a very simple
approach is double drywall - if mudded and taped on both layers, it also
helps with fire resistance - but it only stores heat for a few hours.
Too much thermal mass in the space can bite you if you come in when it's
cold and try to heat with the woodstove - the cold mass keeps the space
from warming. Isolating your mass with insulation can help with that
problem, and also allows the mass to be heated much hotter than you ever
want the space to be when the sun does shine.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Morris Dovey
> Wood floor can be over a concrete slab - but concrete (and rocks, etc)
> is actually a poor thermal storage as opposed to water, so little point
> in it.
Actually, there may be. An insulated concrete slab floor can store a
considerable amount of heat - and while the same mass of water can store
more heat, it requires plumbing, pumps, control system, etc that the
slab does not. The entire water system is vulnerable to freeze damage in
the event of a prolonged power outage of failure of any of its
components - and the slab has no vulnerabilities.
Back on 2/21/2009 I posted a program here to do heat storage
calculations for an insulated concrete slab floor in a workshop building
with 10' ceilings [subject: Re: Physics help please - heat storage
(summary)] that calculated the thickness of slab needed to store enough
heat energy to warm the air in the space above from _absolute zero_ to
an arbitrary room temperature was 0.081923 inch (assuming that the
concrete had previously been warmed to that arbitrary room temperature).
What that means is that a 6" slab at room temperature contains enough
heat energy to warm the room air from -273�C to room temperature 73
times (48 times for a 4" slab).
Now the dynamics aren't likely to work out quite that cleanly, but
neither is it likely that there'll be a need to start with -273�C air in
the structure. :)
The reason for going through that exercise was that a shop building here
in Iowa had been built with a 6" slab and 10' ceilings (and two 8'x6'
passive solar air-heating panels) and the lowest temperature the owner
recorded over two winters was 65�F/18�C.
That was in spite of the fact that the owner opened a 10'x9' door every
morning and every evening to move his pickup truck out/in. He did not
check the temperature immediately after opening the door, and the 65�F
temperature occurred only one time (in the morning).
No water, no pumps, no plumbing, no control system, and no freeze - not
even in overcast/subzero weather.
If it were me, and I could get the job done without incorporating
"breakable" elements, I would - and it's possible to buy a pretty decent
amount of concrete for the cost of labor, materials, and maintenance for
a water system.
--
Robert Scott
>...Back on 2/21/2009 I posted a program here to do heat storage
>calculations for an insulated concrete slab floor in a workshop building
>with 10' ceilings [subject: Re: Physics help please - heat storage
>(summary)] that calculated the thickness of slab needed to store enough
>heat energy to warm the air in the space above from _absolute zero_ to
>an arbitrary room temperature was 0.081923 inch (assuming that the
>concrete had previously been warmed to that arbitrary room temperature).
The amount of heat it takes to heat up a volume of air is nearly irrelevant.
The real challenge in any practical heating system is to keep up with the heat
losses to the outside. What practical use can you make of the fact that a 6"
slab of concrete has 86 times as much heat storage as the air in the room for
the same delta T? If you waited for that heat to be 90% equalized, it would
probably take several days. And if you resort to active means to extract the
heat from the concrete faster (using fans to speed up heat exchange) you may
find that it takes more electrical energy to move the air than you are gaining
from the heat in the concrete.
The real advantage of using concrete is that it might be free. That is, you
needed to have a floor anyway, so you are not paying extra for a heat storage
system.
>The reason for going through that exercise was that a shop building here
>in Iowa had been built with a 6" slab and 10' ceilings (and two 8'x6'
>passive solar air-heating panels) and the lowest temperature the owner
>recorded over two winters was 65�F/18�C.
Are you sure that the results might not be nearly as good if the floor were
wood? All building materials, including the contents of the building,
contribute to evening out temperature fluctuations.
Bob Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
Morris Dovey
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:54:59 -0600, Morris Dovey <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote:
>
>> ...Back on 2/21/2009 I posted a program here to do heat storage
>> calculations for an insulated concrete slab floor in a workshop building
>> with 10' ceilings [subject: Re: Physics help please - heat storage
>> (summary)] that calculated the thickness of slab needed to store enough
>> heat energy to warm the air in the space above from _absolute zero_ to
>> an arbitrary room temperature was 0.081923 inch (assuming that the
>> concrete had previously been warmed to that arbitrary room temperature).
>
> The amount of heat it takes to heat up a volume of air is nearly irrelevant.
That's true (and I think it's important).
> The real challenge in any practical heating system is to keep up with the heat
> losses to the outside.
Also true. Good insulation and lack of leakage are important.
> What practical use can you make of the fact that a 6"
> slab of concrete has 86 times as much heat storage as the air in the room for
> the same delta T?
I can use that as a measure of heat energy available for (re)heating the
air and surfaces in the room.
> If you waited for that heat to be 90% equalized, it would
> probably take several days. And if you resort to active means to extract the
> heat from the concrete faster (using fans to speed up heat exchange) you may
> find that it takes more electrical energy to move the air than you are gaining
> from the heat in the concrete.
Possibly, but this is not the result experienced. Mid-winter, at my
urging, the owner did turn on his ceiling fan and dialed the speed down
to just enough to blow ceiling air down to floor level. After that he
reported warmer morning temperatures and a general improvement in
comfort throughout the shop (night /and/ day). As far as we could
determine, the electrical consumption was negligible, and thereafter he
left the fan running 24/7 (as far as I know it may still be running).
> The real advantage of using concrete is that it might be free. That is, you
> needed to have a floor anyway, so you are not paying extra for a heat storage
> system.
Well, yes - that was one of the points I wanted to make, along with the
point that, for all practical purposes, it has no failure modes and no
operating overhead. It's immaterial that it's not as good a storage
medium as water if the storage it provides is /sufficient/.
>> The reason for going through that exercise was that a shop building here
>> in Iowa had been built with a 6" slab and 10' ceilings (and two 8'x6'
>> passive solar air-heating panels) and the lowest temperature the owner
>> recorded over two winters was 65�F/18�C.
>
> Are you sure that the results might not be nearly as good if the floor were
> wood? All building materials, including the contents of the building,
> contribute to evening out temperature fluctuations.
I'm limited to saying that I'm reasonably sure, because the wood floor
option wasn't tested. I'm inclined to believe, though, that a layer of
wood on top of the concrete would constitute a heat barrier exactly
where I wouldn't want one.
Josepi
heat into the concrete slab can be a problem when any heat captured is
typically above the concrete slab and does not like to be absorbed well.
"Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:hdcjvf$5gg$1...@aioe.org...
> Actually, there may be. An insulated concrete slab floor can store a
> considerable amount of heat - and while the same mass of water can store
> more heat, it requires plumbing, pumps, control system, etc that the slab
> does not. The entire water system is vulnerable to freeze damage in the
> event of a prolonged power outage of failure of any of its components -
> and the slab has no vulnerabilities.
>
Morris Dovey
> While I agree with the simplicity you refer to, and the concept, getting the
> heat into the concrete slab can be a problem when any heat captured is
> typically above the concrete slab and does not like to be absorbed well.
I do seem to have a bit of difficulty communicating this point :)
In my response to appsol and in my response to Rob Scott I extolled the
virtues of using a slow-turning ceiling fan to move the heat to the floor.
If you take a look at the bottom three photos at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Madison/
you can see the real, non-hypothetical, actually-installed fan in operation.
I didn't mention, and probably should have done, that during the
daylight hours the panels continuously draw in the coolest air near the
floor, so that even during power outages the panels work somewhat to
bring warm air to lower 'altitudes'.
It may appear as if it could be a problem, but the actuality is that it
hasn't been a problem at any time during the past two winters.
I kinda like the simplicity myself. ;-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
Josepi
However, this is really climate dependant. In my climate this would be
useful a few months of the year, maybe, way too hot for 3-4 months of the
year and absolutely freezing for 4-5 months. It would extend the summer
months usage but be very unreliable, IMHO.
As I see it, the difference with your passive system is, you cannot ever get
the slab any warmer than the room air temperature. This prevents any large
heat storage for release later by virtue of the higher storage temperature
required. We have days and days of no solar input very frequently during the
year's climate. When I first set my shed solar system up we had about 7
weeks in Dec-Jan with only 6 hours of sun, total. Talk about being
depressed, SADS, dead batteries and frozen parts...LOL Have to get back to
this some year but have too much to finish the rest of my house right now.
"Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:hddamu$t40$1...@aioe.org...
Morris Dovey
> Looks very good.
>
> However, this is really climate dependant. In my climate this would be
> useful a few months of the year, maybe, way too hot for 3-4 months of the
> year and absolutely freezing for 4-5 months. It would extend the summer
> months usage but be very unreliable, IMHO.
>
> As I see it, the difference with your passive system is, you cannot ever get
> the slab any warmer than the room air temperature. This prevents any large
> heat storage for release later by virtue of the higher storage temperature
> required. We have days and days of no solar input very frequently during the
> year's climate. When I first set my shed solar system up we had about 7
> weeks in Dec-Jan with only 6 hours of sun, total. Talk about being
> depressed, SADS, dead batteries and frozen parts...LOL Have to get back to
> this some year but have too much to finish the rest of my house right now.
Of course it is. Solar heat only works when the sun is above the
horizon, which means that if you're close to (or north of) the Arctic
Circle or you'll need a different method (same deal for people in the
southern hemisphere near or south of the Antarctic Circle).
I have no personal experience at all of the Maritimes (I'm pretty sure
that watching Anne of Green Gables on PBS doesn't count). The
northernmost installation of this panel particular design is in Sarnia,
Ontario (at the southern tip of Lake Huron) - not all that far north.
The customer there was so enthusiastic about his that be became a dealer.
If you're talking about dark overcast (marginal) conditions, then
performance will depend very much on quality of design, which is why I
suggested to the OP that he track down his local solar guy for advice.
I get a kick out of how everyone believes they live in a place with
really terrible winter weather. I thought so myself when I lived in
Minnesota (and had to prop a door open even when the outside temperature
was -30�F/-34�C, because I'd overdone the solar heating).
schooner
All depends on your weather, lot of short cloudy days in Maritimes
especially Dec/Jan. When it is cloudy for days on end you wont get much if
any solar heating and the overall temp would soon drop if that is your only
heat source. Very cold clear days then solar works great, but less cold
overcast days not so much.
appsol
Morris/Schooner: I've seen Wayne's page on atlanticenergy.ca, but do
not have any conact info for him.
Encerwal: there are two reasons for the wood floor, 1) comfort/
aesthectics and 2) the need for a crawl space
(so wiring and plumbing changes can be made easily in the future)
re: off-grid, I'll be using the shop 2-3 days a week, so small array +
big battery should give me lots of power.
thanks,
chris
schooner
Chris - Send me an email and I cna provide his contact info.
Morris Dovey
> All depends on your weather, lot of short cloudy days in Maritimes
> especially Dec/Jan. When it is cloudy for days on end you wont get much
> if any solar heating and the overall temp would soon drop if that is
> your only heat source. Very cold clear days then solar works great, but
> less cold overcast days not so much.
Because there weren't any new issues or questions raised, I was tempted
to not respond - but I'd like to voice (gentle) disagreement with your
generalization.
If you experience a rapid temperature drop in any structure, it's an
indication that the structure is either poorly insulated or leaky (or
both), and this has nothing to do with the method of heating.
A _good_ solar heating panel should produce useful amounts of heat on
even cloudy days and, as you mention, should provide excellent
performance during clear days. I suspect that there may be a fairly wide
range of opinion on what constitutes a /good/ solar heating panel.
I have some fairly obvious biases as to what constitutes "good", but I
don't have any qualms about applying Sturgeon's Law to the whole of
solar technology. :)
Morris Dovey
> Chris - Send me an email and I cna provide his contact info.
Assuming Wayne has a web site (surely with contact info), why not post a
link here so that others (lurkers /and/ searchers) can also contact him?
I've had enough web site hits from that neighborhood to know that it
would help more than just Chris.
schooner
Send me an email and I can post the info. He is not a business thus haven't
put the contact info on the website.
Or they can send a message via the email address on the site.
schooner
> schooner wrote:
>
>> All depends on your weather, lot of short cloudy days in Maritimes
>> especially Dec/Jan. When it is cloudy for days on end you wont get much
>> if any solar heating and the overall temp would soon drop if that is your
>> only heat source. Very cold clear days then solar works great, but less
>> cold overcast days not so much.
>
> Because there weren't any new issues or questions raised, I was tempted to
> not respond - but I'd like to voice (gentle) disagreement with your
> generalization.
>
> If you experience a rapid temperature drop in any structure, it's an
> indication that the structure is either poorly insulated or leaky (or
> both), and this has nothing to do with the method of heating.
Don't beleive I said anything about "rapid tempurate drop". However
overcast/snowy weather for days on end with cold windy nights is going to
reduce the tempurate of any structure with no other heat source but solar
especially in months with short days where the sun is low and posisbly not
hitting panels fully.
Morris Dovey
>
> "Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
> news:hdhq1r$3mo$1...@aioe.org...
>> I've had enough web site hits from that neighborhood to know that it
>> would help more than just Chris.
>
> Send me an email and I can post the info. He is not a business thus
> haven't put the contact info on the website.
> Or they can send a message via the email address on the site.
A quick Google search turned up what might be a good starting point:
http://www.solarns.ca/
http://www.solarns.ca/contact.php (with phone and e-mail address)
...and on their site, I found a list of NS suppliers (with contact
information for most):
http://www.solarns.ca/support.php
...and a link to Wayne Langille's project page (mind the wrap):
http://www.atlanticenergy.ca/projects/WayneLangilleSolarAirCollectors/tabid/72/Default.aspx
(I don't have any relationship with any of the above)
Morris Dovey
>
> "Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
> news:hdhpm5$30r$1...@aioe.org...
>> schooner wrote:
>>
>>> All depends on your weather, lot of short cloudy days in Maritimes
>>> especially Dec/Jan. When it is cloudy for days on end you wont get
>>> much if any solar heating and the overall temp would soon drop if
>>> that is your only heat source. Very cold clear days then solar works
>>> great, but less cold overcast days not so much.
>>
>> Because there weren't any new issues or questions raised, I was
>> tempted to not respond - but I'd like to voice (gentle) disagreement
>> with your generalization.
>>
>> If you experience a rapid temperature drop in any structure, it's an
>> indication that the structure is either poorly insulated or leaky (or
>> both), and this has nothing to do with the method of heating.
>
> Don't beleive I said anything about "rapid tempurate drop". However
> overcast/snowy weather for days on end with cold windy nights is going
> to reduce the tempurate of any structure with no other heat source but
> solar especially in months with short days where the sun is low and
> posisbly not hitting panels fully.
My mistake - I misinterpreted "soon drop" as "rapid drop".
You're absolutely correct in pointing out that, without storage, as soon
as soon as heat production ceases the temperature will begin to drop -
which is what makes insulation and leakiness so important in controlling
the rate at which the it occurs.
Which also makes storage important, because if heat can be "withdrawn"
from storage at the same rate the structure is losing it, then the
comfort level can be maintained.
schooner
Or they can just email the address on the site that Wayne's panel is on or
email me directly and I can provide his home number and email, which I
stated above. It isn't that complex; I'm not sure what your point was with
your post??
Morris Dovey
> It isn't that complex; I'm not sure what your point was with your
> post??
My interest (and the point of my post) was to provide information the OP
could use to make a good decision, not to make his choice for him by
funneling him to a single source.
I've seen a fair number of projects conceived and executed in ignorance
that've resulted in marginal results or outright failure - but I've
never heard of a project that suffered because of too much knowledge.
jmygann
I am trying a similar project ... a 20x40' shop ... working on a
southwall
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2505/4099349481_f4c08aaaea_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3224043379_0dd1c44ecc_b.jpg
trying black felt and possibly a Solar Closet
Anyone done a solar closet ? Need help on how to store the heat ??
schooner
Ok, was sure since you post was in reply to me, not the OP. Don't believe
anyone was funneling the OP to one source, was merely providing a source
that was within his region. Can never have too much info for sure. Any
chance of some detailed pics of your panels along with some performance
numbers/readings in the name of knowledge?
Morris Dovey
> Any chance of some detailed pics of your panels along with some
> performance numbers/readings in the name of knowledge?
Depends - do you want to acquire knowledge or practice Marxism? :)
The installation web page originally included detailed step-by-step
assembly photos of everything in the panels except the absorber (no
matter what lighting I tried, the absorber still showed up as a big
black rectangle without any visible details). That sharing was
sufficiently abused that those photos were removed.
Two of the highest priority goals have been maximum delivery of heat and
longevity - not low cost or ease of construction - which led to a design
unsuitable for DIY production. (I had to spend just under $15K for CNC
tooling to cut some of the parts, and about $300 for assembly clamps.)
Worse, the primary absorber material (highly-reflective black aluminum
ribbon) needed to be special ordered from overseas from a company that
only wanted to sell in full cargo container quantities. In order to get
material for prototyping, I had to order (and pay a premium for) a 25km
_sample_ quantity. Not something the average DIY builder is willing to do.
Assuming you're (still) interested in knowledge, I've put as much of the
simple stuff as I could articulate onto my web site. It's somewhat
scattered about - but it's there to help those who want to learn.
I recommend "Introduction to Heat Transfer" by Frank P. Incopera and
David P. DeWitt (Wiley) ISBN 0-471-61247-2. It's a bit of a grind, but a
good source.
Wikipedia has a number of excellent articles on black body radiation and
flow dynamics. If you can get through the discussions of Planck's work
without feeling like your head is going to explode, you're a better man
than I - but this stuff is absolutely essential to the design of a
really decent absorber. You won't need to actually /use/ the equations
as much as to /understand/ what they tell you about the way this
universe operates.
Performance numbers? Would those be for Ypsi or Denver or Halifax? Sea
level or a mile above? If I were to publish numbers, the only ones that
would make any sense would be for performance at sea level on the winter
solstice under absolutely ideal conditions - which no one in the real
world would likely ever experience, and which would have the effect of
misleading everyone. If you believe otherwise, you're kidding yourself.
I kid you not.
schooner
Ok thanks, nevermind.
Josepi
documetary and passing information but it would be reall nice to do a bus
tour of projects some day. Did I say "some day". Some year!...LOL
"Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:hdk4rj$hvl$1...@aioe.org...
Morris Dovey
> Too bad all aren't closer geographically. Kudos to you for doing the
> documetary and passing information but it would be reall nice to do a bus
> tour of projects some day. Did I say "some day". Some year!...LOL
If you'd like to look, let me have a couple of days warning and I should
be able to provide the tour. (Don't put it off too many years!)
Josepi
"Morris Dovey" <mrd...@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:hdknk2$6jc$1...@aioe.org...