FEMA prevents all sorts of aid from reaching New Orleans
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
FEMA prevent Amtrak from helping evacuate survivors
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048
FEMA turns away experienced firefighters
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
FEMA turns away Walmart supply trucks
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
FEMA prevents morticians from entering New Orleans
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826
FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
FEMA turns away generators
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144825.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
FEMA tells Chicago not to bother
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470
"FEMA: First responders told not to respond"
I realize that usenet Republicans can't help themselves from blaming
Democrats right, last, and every time in between. But how can you
ignore this active effort to prevent the savings of innocent lives? How
can you excuse this dereliction of duty?
Ernst Blofeld
I picked out a few of these at random:
> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
"Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid
> http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
""Anyone who self-responded was not being put to work. The military was
worried about having more people in the city. They want to limit it to
the professionals," said Kevin Southerland, a captain with Orange Fire
Department in Orange County, Calif., a member of one of eight 14-member
water rescue teams sent to New Orleans at FEMA's request."
An entirely reasonable judgement call for the people on the ground.
They're trying to get people out of the city, and with the security and
looting situation what it is they probably don't want random people
wandering around.
> FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
flight away and the
Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
> FEMA tells Chicago not to bother
> http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470
> "FEMA: First responders told not to respond"
"Paulison said the National Incident Management System is being used
during the response to Hurricane Katrina and that self-dispatching
volunteer assistance could significantly complicate the response and
recovery effort."
David Moffitt
"Ernst Blofeld" <blof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125988436.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
%%%% (snicker) Now that was a bitch slap across the mouth gjohn. Now what
else would you like to be slapped with?
>
Ernst Blofeld
Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> > FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
> > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
>
> Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
> flight away and the
> Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
Just to pile on on this example:
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011585.php
Rightfully tears into the embarassment that is Paul Krugman:
====
So, according to Krugman, the Bataan, with its hospital and fresh
water, constituted a resource that was "never mobilized," apparently
because of "paralysis" on the part of the administration. In citing the
Bataan as his best example of federal ineptitude, Krugman relied, as he
so often does, on an urban legend that circulated on left-wing blogs:
that the Bataan, which had been cruising in the Caribbean when Katrina
struck, was ready and able to aid the hurricane's victims, but was
prevented from doing so because the Defense Department never gave the
order authorizing it to act. This rumor became so persistent that one
of the ship's officers, Lt. Commander Sean Kelly, wrote to one of the
left-wing sites to debunk the myth:
USNORTHCOM was prepositioned for response to the hurricane, but as per
the National Response Plan, we support the lead federal agency in
disaster relief - in this case, FEMA. The simple description of the
process is the state requests federal assistance from FEMA which in
turn may request assistance from the military upon approval by the
president or Secretary of Defense. Having worked the hurricanes from
last year as well as Dennis this year, we knew that FEMA would make
requests of the military - primarily in the areas of transportation,
communications, logistics, and medicine. Thus we began staging such
assets and waited for the storm to hit.
The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself
- couldn't begin really helping until it passed - and damage
assessment - figuring out which roads were passable, where
communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage
assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as
soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue
the mission on Tuesday night.
The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right
away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for
authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.
Poor Paul, always a day late and a dollar short, apparently didn't get
the memo.
Still, if I were writing a column that I expected to be read by many
thousands of people--oh, wait, I do--and if I were going to rest my
column on a single "example" on the basis of which I intended to charge
government officials with "lethal ineptitude," I would do a little
fact-checking. Sadly, however, research is something of which Paul
Krugman is simply incapable.
Perhaps Krugman doesn't know that large naval vessels like the U.S.S.
Bataan all have web sites. Perhaps he doesn't know that there is a tool
called "Google" that would enable him to find the Bataan's web site in
less than ten seconds. Or perhaps he just didn't care enough to go here
and read up on the Bataan's contributions to hurricane relief efforts.
If Krugman had taken the trouble, he would have found that on August
30, the same day on which New Orleans' levees burst, precipitating the
crisis, men and women from the Bataan were already in action, and by
the following day they were busy saving lives:
The crews flew off Tuesday night towards New Orleans and were tasked by
the on-scene rescue coordinators. "Our first mission was to provide
food and water and to take some people to a safer haven and to help
with the levee by providing sandbags," said AS2(AW/NAC) Johnny
Ramirez, MH-53 Aircrewman for HM-15. "We weren't able to complete our
assigned mission Tuesday night because it got too dark and it was too
risky to land anywhere with all of the water and power lines. Instead,
we just flew Tuesday night to survey the area."
On Wednesday, a crew from HM-15 assisted with lifting numerous stranded
citizens in a very short period of time. "My crew and I airlifted
nearly 100 people from the roof of a building and onto a field where
ambulances and busses were waiting for them," said LCDR David Hopper,
detachment Officer in Charge of HM-15. "Ten of those who we rescued
couldn't even walk; my crewmen had to carry them."
One of the missions of the MH-60 aircraft is search and rescue. HSC-28
personnel have rescued 71 people in their first two days of operation,
seven in the first 30 minutes. HSC-28 has three crews and two aircraft
and is alternating flight and crew rest time.
Here is a summary of the Bataan's efforts as of yesterday, when
Krugman's column implied that the ship was a "resource" that was "never
mobilized":
"We've been extremely busy this past week with more tasks than there
are hours in a day," said Cmdr. Jeffrey Bocchicchio, Bataan 's Air
Boss. "The shortest day the department has had was 16 hours long, but
they understand that everything we do is critical to the mission."
"All of the divisions and Combat Cargo working together allows the ship
to have a 24-hour flight deck with the manning for 10-hour days,"
said Bocchicchio. "Military units are the nation's biggest assets and
what better use for them than to save our own people."
To date, the two squadrons have transported 1,613 displaced people and
delivered more than 100,000 pounds of cargo. Bataan also provided 8,000
gallons of fresh drinking water to the ravished Gulfport, Mississippi
area. Sailors filled eight 500-gallon water bladders with the ship's
potable water and HM 15's MH-53 helicopters transported them from the
flight deck of Bataan to land.
How about the unused operating rooms and empty hospital beds? It seems
not to have occurred to Krugman that the most efficient way to get
medical treatment to hurricane survivors is not to helicopter them,
individually or in small groups, to a ship at sea. Instead, what
happened was that medical personnel were assembled and equipped on
board the Bataan, then flown to shore where they could treat the sick
and wounded:
Two medical fly-away teams from the Navy's Casualty Receiving and
Treatment Ship Team (CRTS) 8, based at Naval Hospital Jacksonville,
Fla., left the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5)
on Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 , to provide medical support to Hurricane
Katrina survivors at the New Orleans International Airport and a high
school in Biloxi , Mississippi .
A 26-member primary care treatment team consisting of a pediatrician,
family practice physician, an obstetrician along with seven nurses and
16 hospital corpsman departed early Sunday morning for New Orleans
International Airport . They expect to return to the ship on Monday.
The second flyaway team, which consisted of an internal medicine
physician, two nurses, a respiratory therapy technician and two general
hospital corpsman, flew to Biloxi High School to take care of patients
with respiratory illnesses. The team's main mission is to provide
treatment for those who have respiratory problems. They are expected to
return to the ship in two or three days.
The diversity of CRTS 8's composition allows the flexibility of
establishing multiple mission-specific medical teams within a short
time period. "The CRTS 8 team is glad to be onboard Bataan
participating in the relief efforts," said Cmdr. Michael Illovsky,
MC, USN, Director of Medical Services for CRTS 8. "We are ready and
willing to help out in any way possible. We are enthused about the
opportunity to send groups into the affected areas where they are
needed most."
The 24-member medical team who left Saturday for the New Orleans
Convention Center returned to Bataan Sunday afternoon.
This all happened during the three days prior to the appearance of
Krugman's column describing the "hospital beds" "without patients"
aboard the Bataan.
====
Stevie Nichts
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> > > FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
> > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
> >
> > Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
> > flight away and the
> > Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
>
> Just to pile on on this example:
>
> http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011585.php
>
> Rightfully tears into the embarassment that is Paul Krugman:
[snip]
Such is the tenor of Krugman's work that The New York
Times 'public editor' Daniel Okrent was moved to write:
"Op-Ed columnist Paul Krugman has the disturbing habit of shaping,
slicing and selectively citing numbers in a fashion that pleases
his acolytes but leaves him open to substantive assaults."
Such understatement.
Al Dykes
>> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
>> > > FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
>> > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
>> >
>> > Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
>> > flight away and the
>> > Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
>>
>> Just to pile on on this example:
>>
>> http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011585.php
>>
>> Rightfully tears into the embarassment that is Paul Krugman:
>
>[snip]
http://selltheranch.com/news.html
* FEMA Won't Accept Amtrak's Help In Evacuations
* FEMA Turns Away Experienced Firefighters
* FEMA Turns Back Wal-Mart Supply Trucks
* FEMA Prevents Coast Guard From Delivering Diesel Fuel
* FEMA Won't Let Red Cross Deliver Food
* FEMA Bars Morticians From Entering New Orleans
* FEMA Blocks 500-Boat Citizen Flotilla From Delivering Aid
* FEMA Fails To Utilize Navy Ship With 600-Bed Hospital On Board
* FEMA to Chicago: Send Just One Truck
* FEMA Turns Away Generators
* FEMA: "First Responders Urged Not To Respond"
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Stevie Nichts
> I realize that usenet Republicans can't help themselves from blaming
> Democrats right, last, and every time in between.
The force of projection is strong in this one! You have helped to
lead the charge of blaming Bush on every conceivable front and for
any and every problem pre- and post-Katrina.
> But how can you
> ignore this active effort to prevent the savings of innocent lives? How
> can you excuse this dereliction of duty?
As they say, right back at you. State and local authorities bore
the primary responsibility for the evacuation and aid of their
citizens. _They_ are the first responders. Are you truly ignorant
of this?
Are you still unaware that the City of New Orleans had an
emergency plan to cover such events, but apparently failed to
implement it? Where is your anger toward the failure of _local_
authorities to help their citizens?
Do you not know that New Orleans, and its mayor, faced many of the
same issues just a year ago, during Hurricane Ivan?
---
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/091904ccktWWLIvanFlaws.132602486.html
Those who had the money to flee Hurricane Ivan ran into hours-long
traffic jams. Those too poor to leave the city had to find their
own shelter - a policy that was eventually reversed, but only a
few hours before the deadly storm struck land.
New Orleans dodged the knockout punch many feared from the
hurricane, but the storm exposed what some say are significant
flaws in the Big Easy's civil disaster plans.
Much of New Orleans is below sea level, kept dry by a system of
pumps and levees. As Ivan charged through the Gulf of Mexico, more
than a million people were urged to flee. Forecasters warned that
a direct hit on the city could send torrents of Mississippi River
backwash over the city's levees, creating a 20-foot-deep cesspool
of human and industrial waste.
Residents with cars took to the highways. Others wondered what to
do.
"They say evacuate, but they don't say how I'm supposed to do
that," Latonya Hill, 57, said at the time. "If I can't walk it or
get there on the bus, I don't go. I don't got a car. My daughter
don't either."
Advocates for the poor were indignant.
"If the government asks people to evacuate, the government has
some responsibility to provide an option for those people who
can't evacuate and are at the whim of Mother Nature," said Joe
Cook of the New Orleans ACLU.
...In this case, city officials first said they would provide no
shelter, then agreed that the state-owned Louisiana Superdome
would open to those with special medical needs. Only Wednesday
afternoon, with Ivan just hours away, did the city open the 20-
story-high domed stadium to the public.
Mayor Ray Nagin's spokeswoman, Tanzie Jones, insisted that there
was no reluctance at City Hall to open the Superdome, but said the
evacuation was the top priority.
"Our main focus is to get the people out of the city," she said.
Callers to talk radio complained about the late decision to open
up the dome, but the mayor said he would do nothing different.
"We did the compassionate thing by opening the shelter," Nagin
said. "We wanted to make sure we didn't have a repeat performance
of what happened before. We didn't want to see people cooped up in
the Superdome for days."
---
Mayor Nagin knew that the Superdome was not a suitable shelter
_a year ago_. So what did he do this year? The same thing.
The crisis experienced this week by New Orleans did not arise from
ignorance or a failure of imagination, but directly from
incompetence by local authorities, beginning with Mayor Ray Nagin.
Ernst Blofeld
Stevie Nichts wrote:
> As they say, right back at you. State and local authorities bore
> the primary responsibility for the evacuation and aid of their
> citizens. _They_ are the first responders. Are you truly ignorant
> of this?
Indeed, this is one of the more sureal aspects of this event.
They're accusing _Republicans_ of following talking points,
but have quite nearly universally declined to say anything
about the abysmal performance of local and state government.
Which, just coincidentally, also happen to be run by
Democrats.
Ernst Blofeld
Al Dykes wrote:
> http://selltheranch.com/news.html
I slogged through several of those examples above. After
finding quite a bit less than met the eye I decided the
rest were just as bogus.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> I picked out a few of these at random:
>
> > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
>
> "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
#1) That quote isn't in there.
#2) Red Cross wasn't "other relief agencies"
#3) and more importantly, you left out this quote:
"They won't let anyone in there. You have to be FEMA-certified and I am
not," he said.
"It's kind of sad people are being turned away, the minute they go
into a federal situation, they just can't get in there," he said. "The
problem is when something like this happens - when an area is declared
a national disaster - you can't go in there. They don't know them
(trained volunteers) from Adam, so they can't let them in," he said of
federal officials.
That's bureaucracy at work. Not concern for safety.
And it was declared a national disaster almost immediately.
Strike 1.
>
> > FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid
> > http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
>
> ""Anyone who self-responded was not being put to work. The military was
> worried about having more people in the city.
That story is from TODAY! That's a week too late. The military didn't
move in until Thursday.
>
> An entirely reasonable judgement call for the people on the ground.
> They're trying to get people out of the city, and with the security and
> looting situation what it is they probably don't want random people
> wandering around.
It's reasonable NOW! It wasn't reasonable a week ago.
Strike 2
>
> > FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
> > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
>
> Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
> flight away and the Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
Where are you getting this information? Because it isn't listed here.
And what difference does that make? We are talking about adding more
resources.
>
> > FEMA tells Chicago not to bother
> > http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470
> > "FEMA: First responders told not to respond"
>
> "Paulison said the National Incident Management System is being used
> during the response to Hurricane Katrina and that self-dispatching
> volunteer assistance could significantly complicate the response and
> recovery effort."
Let's get this straight: Republicans like yourself want to blame
local authorities for the mess, yet you now support the idea of first
responders (a.k.a. city and state resources) now doing anything.
Strike 3. You are out.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
[...]
> %%%% (snicker) Now that was a bitch slap across the mouth gjohn. Now what
> else would you like to be slapped with?
>
of a sporting event.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > I realize that usenet Republicans can't help themselves from blaming
> > Democrats right, last, and every time in between.
>
> The force of projection is strong in this one!
Oh, please. You are one of the worst offenders.
> > But how can you
> > ignore this active effort to prevent the savings of innocent lives? How
> > can you excuse this dereliction of duty?
>
> As they say, right back at you. State and local authorities bore
> the primary responsibility for the evacuation and aid of their
> citizens. _They_ are the first responders. Are you truly ignorant
> of this?
They worked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week saving people.
So your point is?
>
> Are you still unaware that the City of New Orleans had an
> emergency plan to cover such events, but apparently failed to
> implement it? Where is your anger toward the failure of _local_
> authorities to help their citizens?
They got 80% of the city evacuated before the storm hit, and then
worked 24 hours a day during and after the storm.
>
> Do you not know that New Orleans, and its mayor, faced many of the
> same issues just a year ago, during Hurricane Ivan?
What issues? If New Orleans was flooded a year ago I would be very
interested in hearing more from your parallel dimension.
>
> ---
> http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/091904ccktWWLIvanFlaws.132602486.html
[...]
>
> Mayor Nagin knew that the Superdome was not a suitable shelter
> _a year ago_. So what did he do this year? The same thing.
I'm curious where tens of thousands of people were supposed to go
then?
Please give me a list of places.
>
> The crisis experienced this week by New Orleans did not arise from
> ignorance or a failure of imagination, but directly from
> incompetence by local authorities, beginning with Mayor Ray Nagin.
So FEMA turning away help is OK, but the local authorities working
night and day for a weeks on end is failure.
Usenet conservatives certainly have a different view of reality.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
What's surreal is how you just typed this above:
>>> > http://www.fema.gov/news/newsr elease.fema?id=18470
>>>> "FEMA: First responders told not to respond"
>>>
>>>"Paulison said the National Incident Management System is being used
>>>during the response to Hurricane Katrina and that self-dispatching
>>>volunteer assistance could significantly complicate the response and
>>>recovery effort."
You are _backing_ the idea of first responders not acting above, and
are now _blaming_ first responders of not doing enough.
Good grief! Is there any wonder why I no longer take you so
seriously?
Could the local and state governments done more? Probably. They could
have gotten more people out of New Orleans had they known the flood
walls wouldn't hold.
The problem is that no one knew that at the time. In fact, they
nearly held as it was, just like they held in past hurricanes. No one,
not Democrat or Republican, was crying for a more aggressive evacuation
before the hurricane hit. Getting 80% of the population out seemed to
be a pretty good effort at the time. The mayor and governor were asking
for federal help before the flood walls failed.
When the flood walls failed it was too late. The city filled up in a
matter of hours. Nothing could be done at that point except sending out
the police, national guard and firefighters to save people as quickly
as possible. This was done.
What wasn't done was the federal government acting. Days passed
before the military started to move. FEMA came in and did little more
than prevent NGO's, and private citizens from helping.
Could the state and local governments done more? Most likely. But
that isn't the question here. The question isn't not doing enough. The
question is days of not doing ANYTHING! The federal government falls
into the latter question, not the state and local governments.
But this is simply too much logic to waste here. You guys aren't
interested in actual logic. It's all a football game to you guys.
Malibu Skipper
government failed, up and down the line. I'd personally favor an
independent commission to investigate the entire fiasco; and if the
state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans would like to recall or
impeach their governor and their mayor -- or use whatever remedy is
prescribed by the Napoleonic Code in cased such as this -- then more
power to them.
I am neither a resident of New Orleans nor a citizen of Louisiana,
however. As a citizen of the United States, I would like for my
President to fire, without further ado, FEMA Director Michael Brown. I
would like him to do this both because Brownie's ineptitude has
disgraced our country, and because I shudder at the thought that Brownie
might be in charge should al Quaeda terrorists ever manage to blow up
the nuclear power plant within spitting distance of my home.
If there's some extraordinary excuse for Director Brown's incompentence
-- documented in the links below -- then he should call a press
conference and present it. Otherwise, he needs to go.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_09_04_corner-archive.asp#075613
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.html#076771
http://www.brendanloy.com/2005/09/you-have-got-to-be-kidding-me.html
http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/09/06/trent-lott-all-over-fema/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168570,00.html
http://elephantontheedge.blogspot.com/2005/09/brown-chertoff-must-go.html
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974
David Moffitt
<gjoh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1126061760.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
%%%% I also see you snipped your bitch slapping in total embarrasment. :o)
>
Stevie Nichts
> Stevie Nichts wrote:
> > gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > I realize that usenet Republicans can't help themselves from blaming
> > > Democrats right, last, and every time in between.
> >
> > The force of projection is strong in this one!
>
> Oh, please. You are one of the worst offenders.
Let us compare: you have spent days casting about for problems,
pre- and post-Katrina, which you can blame upon Bush. I see blame
aplenty for the Federal government; but there is also much to
blame upon state and local officials, who just happen to be
Democrats -- which seems all the reason you need to defend them
vigourously. It suggests that your viewpoint would be radically
different if those officials were Republicans.
> > > But how can you
> > > ignore this active effort to prevent the savings of innocent lives? How
> > > can you excuse this dereliction of duty?
> >
> > As they say, right back at you. State and local authorities bore
> > the primary responsibility for the evacuation and aid of their
> > citizens. _They_ are the first responders. Are you truly ignorant
> > of this?
>
> They worked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week saving people.
> So your point is?
The point is they evidently did not follow their own established
Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. Actually reading it would
disabuse you of certain partisan notions:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
> > Are you still unaware that the City of New Orleans had an
> > emergency plan to cover such events, but apparently failed to
> > implement it? Where is your anger toward the failure of _local_
> > authorities to help their citizens?
>
> They got 80% of the city evacuated before the storm hit, and then
> worked 24 hours a day during and after the storm.
As is the case with much of what has been posted lately, that is
not entirely accurate.
---
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm
The breakdown of the relief operation in New Orleans was the
result of multiple failures by city, state and federal
authorities.
There was no one cause. The failures began long before the
hurricane with a gamble that a Category Four or Five hurricane
would not strike New Orleans.
They continued with an inadequate evacuation plan and culminated
in a relief effort hampered by lack of planning, supplies and
manpower, and a breakdown in communications of the most basic
sort.
[The evacuation] was announced at a news conference by the Mayor
Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the
hurricane struck early the next morning.
The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?
The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news
conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed
for a mandatory evacuation.
The night before, National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield had
called Mayor Nagin to tell him that an evacuation was needed. Why
were these calls necessary?
...there are detailed plans for Louisiana and the City of New
Orleans for an evacuation and these make it clear that buses
should be used to transport those without cars.
---
This is even more damning:
---
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html
That the New Orleans police are hardly the Finest was proven by a
shocking report yesterday: Nearly a third of New Orleans cops -
some 500 of the 1,600 - are now unaccounted for. The department
says some quit, but it doesn't know where most of them are.
The top cop, Eddie Compass, has responded by offering all officers
paid vacations to Las Vegas and Atlanta. Yes, that's right - he is
pulling all cops off the street, even while bodies lie in the
open. Never in New York.
Then there's Mayor Ray Nagin, a Democrat, who has blamed everybody
but himself. Maybe he has forgotten his plans for dealing with
Katrina.
Last July, his office prepared DVDs warning that, if the city ever
had to be evacuated, residents were on their own. According to a
July 24 article in The Times-Picayune (spotted by the Web's Drudge
Report), "Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay
Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the
word that the city does not have the resources to move out of
harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."
"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible
for the person next to you," one official said of the message.
And how's this for preparation? Cops were told not to work on the
day Katrina hit, one officer told The New York Times, but "to come
in the next day, to save money on their budget."
---
Does this help to change your mind in the slightest, or do you find
here still more evidence of Bush's evil?
> > Do you not know that New Orleans, and its mayor, faced many of the
> > same issues just a year ago, during Hurricane Ivan?
>
> What issues? If New Orleans was flooded a year ago I would be very
> interested in hearing more from your parallel dimension.
I quoted an article about the issue of evacuation and the aid of
the evacuees -- and you seem to have deleted most of it, unread.
Do read the entire thing; it will educate you.
> > ---
> > http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/091904ccktWWLIvanFlaws.132602486.html
> [...]
> >
> > Mayor Nagin knew that the Superdome was not a suitable shelter
> > _a year ago_. So what did he do this year? The same thing.
>
> I'm curious where tens of thousands of people were supposed to go
> then?
> Please give me a list of places.
I can understand why you are not aware of Louisiana's
Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan, but the state
and local authorities have no such excuse:
---
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=17
State evacuation map & routes
The state's evacuation plan goes into effect when any slow moving
Category 3, and all Category 4 & 5 hurricanes pose a direct threat
to this area.
Once the state plan goes into effect, everyone south of Interstate
10 will be ordered to evacuate. Remember, it usually takes four
times longer to reach your destination during an evacuation.
Take a look at the evacuation map below and then see the
following:
· Evacuation guidelines [link]
[link to map of evacuation routes]
---
Does this help at all?
> > The crisis experienced this week by New Orleans did not arise from
> > ignorance or a failure of imagination, but directly from
> > incompetence by local authorities, beginning with Mayor Ray Nagin.
>
> So FEMA turning away help is OK, but the local authorities working
> night and day for a weeks on end is failure.
> Usenet conservatives certainly have a different view of reality.
Usenet leftists have an odd way of comprehending the written word.
Martin McPhillips
news:1126056709.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Krugman is too busy shaking with hatred to
check facts.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
> >
> > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
>
> #1) That quote isn't in there.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
====
Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.
...
"Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local
authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for
access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
Calls to the Department of Homeland Security and its subagency, the
Federal Emergency Management Agency, were not returned yesterday.
Though frustrated, Hosler understood the reasons. The goal is to move
people out of an uninhabitable city, and relief operations might keep
them there. Security is so bad that she fears feeding stations might
get ransacked.
====
Note that this includes "local authorities" and the NG. And, for that
matter, the Red Cross
representative _agrees_ that it would be dangerous.
See also
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/09/04-week/index.php#a000211
====
The Fox News Channel's Major Garrett was just on my show extending the
story he had just reported on Brit Hume's show: The Red Cross is
confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets
and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention
Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked
from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state
government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome
and/or Convention Center. Garrett has no paper trail yet, but will
follow up on his verbal confirmation from sources at the highest levels
of the Red Cross.
====
So I presume that you are now willing to publicly denounce the Lousiana
state
government for their savage policies. Or, perhaps, come to the
conclusion
that both FEMA and state government had a point.
> #2) Red Cross wasn't "other relief agencies"
Huh? Relief agencies other than the red cross said it was too dangerous
as
well.
> #3) and more importantly, you left out this quote:
> "They won't let anyone in there. You have to be FEMA-certified and I am
> not," he said.
So?
> > > FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid
> > > http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
> >
> > ""Anyone who self-responded was not being put to work. The military was
> > worried about having more people in the city.
>
> That story is from TODAY! That's a week too late. The military didn't
> move in until Thursday.
> >
> > An entirely reasonable judgement call for the people on the ground.
> > They're trying to get people out of the city, and with the security and
> > looting situation what it is they probably don't want random people
> > wandering around.
>
> It's reasonable NOW! It wasn't reasonable a week ago.
The security situation was bad immediately after the hurricane.
that was precisely when it was most dangerous.
> > > FEMA fails to use Navy ship with 600-bed hospital
> > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed
> >
> > Because the medical center at the airport is a five-minute helicopter
> > flight away and the Bataan is a half-hour flight away.
>
> Where are you getting this information? Because it isn't listed here.
> And what difference does that make? We are talking about adding more
> resources.
See http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011585.php
The Bataan flew their doctors to the airport, then medical evacuees
were
flown to the airport (five minutes) rather than the Bataan (30
minutes).
The Bataan's operating rooms weren't used because they weren't needed.
Had enough medical evacuees appeared the overflow from the airport
could have been airlifted out. But that didn't happen.
And the Bataan was flying support missions immediately after
the storm. There was no delay. They were ordered to the area
and followed the storm in.
> Let's get this straight: Republicans like yourself want to blame
> local authorities for the mess,
Yes, that's exactly right. Your Red Cross example appears to be backed
up
by the state government you are attempting to absolve. And the
Bataan example is entirely bogus.
And this is why the left's gleeful blame-fest lacks credibility.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
> >
> > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
>
> #1) That quote isn't in there.
"A Red Cross official, Carol Miller, said on NPR's Diane Rehm show this
morning that the Red Cross was told not to provide aid at the Superdome
by the Louisiana, not U.S., Department of Homeland Security. Audio
here: http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/ (click link on left side of
page) the comment is about 35:40 into the show."
I demand that you immediately denounce Lousiana state government. Or,
alternatively,
agree that they had a point, and that you were mistaken.
Ernst Blofeld
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> > Indeed, this is one of the more sureal aspects of this event.
> > They're accusing _Republicans_ of following talking points,
> > but have quite nearly universally declined to say anything
> > about the abysmal performance of local and state government.
> > Which, just coincidentally, also happen to be run by
> > Democrats.
> >
> Who had declined? I don't. It's apparent that the whole structure of
> government failed, up and down the line.
Fine; fire wots-his-name at FEMA. But the _primary_ responsibility
for the response in the first 72 hours still lies with the state and
local governments. I think the 80/20 rule apportions the 80%
part to the locals.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> No one,
> not Democrat or Republican, was crying for a more aggressive evacuation
> before the hurricane hit.
Bush called the LA governor on Saturday to ask for a mandatory
evacuation.
> When the flood walls failed it was too late. The city filled up in a
> matter of hours. Nothing could be done at that point except sending out
> the police, national guard and firefighters to save people as quickly
> as possible. This was done.
A substantial number (I've heard up to 50%) of the police simply
left their jobs. Others looted. Their radio system's generators did
not have backup power and were not protectd from floods.
Monday, September 5, 2005
====
NEW ORLEANS - A day after two police suicides and the abrupt
resignations or desertions of up to 200 police officers, defiant city
officials on Sunday began offering five-day vacations - and even
trips to Las Vegas - to the police, firefighters and city emergency
workers and their families.
The idea of paid vacations was raised by both Mayor Ray Nagin and
senior police officials who said their forces were exhausted and
traumatized and that the arrival of the National Guard had made way for
the officers to be relieved.
Officials were planning to send 1,500 workers - about 900 of
them police officers - out in two shifts for five days each and were
sending them to Las Vegas because of the availability of hotel rooms
and to Atlanta where many of them had relatives.
====
Ernst Blofeld
> > > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
> > >
> > > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> >
> > #1) That quote isn't in there.
I again call upon you to either DENOUNCE the Lousiana Governor and New
Orleans mayor, or to agree that the people on the ground at the
Superdome
may have had a point about the security situation.
Hugh Hewitt:
====
HH: You just broke a pretty big story. I was watching up on the corner
television in my studio, and it's headlined that the Red Cross was
blocked from delivering supplies to the Superdome, Major Garrett. Tell
us what you found out.
MG: Well, the Red Cross, Hugh, had pre-positioned a literal vanguard of
trucks with water, food, blankets and hygiene items. They're not really
big into medical response items, but those are the three biggies that
we saw people at the New Orleans Superdom, and the convention center,
needing most accutely. And all of us in America, I think, reasonably
asked ourselves, geez. You know, I watch hurricanes all the time. And I
see correspondents standing among rubble and refugees and evacuaees.
But I always either see that Red Cross or Salvation Army truck nearby.
Why don't I see that?
HH: And the answer is?
MG: The answer is the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security, that
is the state agency responsible for that state's homeland security,
told the Red Cross explicitly, you cannot come.
HH: Now Major Garrett, on what day did they block the delivery? Do you
know specifically?
MG: I am told by the Red Cross, immediately after the storm passed.
HH: Okay, so that would be on Monday afternoon.
MG: That would have been Monday or Tuesday. The exact time, the hour, I
don't have. But clearly, they had an evacuee situation at the
Superdome, and of course, people gravitated to the convention center on
an ad hoc basis. They sort of invented that as another place to go,
because they couldn't stand the conditions at the Superdome.
HH: Any doubt in the Red Cross' mind that they were ready to go, but
they were blocked?
MG: No. Absolutely none. They are absolutely unequivocal on that point.
...
MG: I have not been able to reach them yet. But, what they have said
consistently is, and what they told the Red Cross, we don't want you to
come in there, because we have evacuees that we want to get out. And if
you come in, they're more likely to stay. So I want your listeners to
follow me here. At the very moment that Ray Nagin, the Mayor of New
Orleans was screaming where's the food, where's the water, it was over
the overpass, and state officials were saying you can't come in.
...
MG: As the Red Cross told me, they said look. We are not state actors.
We are not the Army. We are a private organziation. We work in
cooperation with both FEMA and the state officials. But the state told
us A) it's not safe, because the water is dangerous. And we're now
learning how toxic the water is. B) there's a security situation,
because they didn't have a handle on the violence on the ground. And C)
and I think this is most importantly, they wanted to evacuate out. They
didn't want people to stay.
...
HH: Now any in the 'they'...is the New Orleans' mayor's staff involved
as well? Or the New Orleans police department?
MG: Not that I'm aware of, because the decision was made and
communicated to the Red Cross by the state department of Homeland
Security and the state National Guard. Both of which report to the
governor.
====
Malibu Skipper
responsible, Ernst. You spend your time portioning out the blame as you
see fit. We'll have an inquiry after it's all over, and if it's handled
correctly, we'll find out then who should have done what. If I lived in
Louisiana, I'd probably be calling for the governor's head on a platter
-- but I don't live in Louisiana. I do, however, live in the United
States; and the one thing that's entirely apparent in the arena for
which I bear a share of responsibility is that the Director of FEMA is
completely unfit for his job, and the President doesn't seem to realize it.
His name is "Brownie", by the way.
Ernst Blofeld
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> I really, truly, don't give a shit who's 80% responsible and who's 20%
> responsible, Ernst. You spend your time portioning out the blame as you
> see fit. We'll have an inquiry after it's all over, and if it's handled
> correctly, we'll find out then who should have done what. If I lived in
> Louisiana, I'd probably be calling for the governor's head on a platter
> -- but I don't live in Louisiana. I do, however, live in the United
> States; and the one thing that's entirely apparent in the arena for
> which I bear a share of responsibility is that the Director of FEMA is
I think that's a dodge--"well, I don't live in Louisana, but I live in
the
US." You don't usually hear something like that about, say, a desire
to teach intelligent design in Georgia. I don't think the new-found
respect for federalist live-and-let-live principles washes.
Certainly, one can't expect the state to examine its own performance,
and it may take outside pressure to reform the Louisiana political
culture. I think they'd be quite happy to slide back into a corrupt
but inept form of government, with the acquiensence of the
voters.
In this case an examination of the entire process is warranted,
hopefully
a better-run one than the 9/11 commission. The press has gone
activist and is not particularly accurate so far. Their inclination is
to expect the feds to do everything, but their expectations and
the reality of local government primacy are not congruent.
WCB
Krugman always has the facts.
That is why the right shakes with unadulterated
hatred at his very name.
In fact, shipments of food, water, fuel and medicines
have been routinely blocked by FEMA. And the Feds
were doing other oddities like shutting off newly established
communications lines, causing the NOLA NG to have
to re-connect the lines and set armed guards over them to
keep the insane Federal morons from coming back and
cutting communications again.
You are the only hater around, lying and braying.
No gfacts, no pointing to any facts Krugman got wrong.
Just hate mongering from you and name calling.
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
Malibu Skipper
> Malibu Skipper wrote:
>
>>I really, truly, don't give a shit who's 80% responsible and who's 20%
>>responsible, Ernst. You spend your time portioning out the blame as you
>>see fit. We'll have an inquiry after it's all over, and if it's handled
>>correctly, we'll find out then who should have done what. If I lived in
>>Louisiana, I'd probably be calling for the governor's head on a platter
>>-- but I don't live in Louisiana. I do, however, live in the United
>>States; and the one thing that's entirely apparent in the arena for
>>which I bear a share of responsibility is that the Director of FEMA is
>
>
> I think that's a dodge--"well, I don't live in Louisana, but I live in
> the
> US." You don't usually hear something like that about, say, a desire
> to teach intelligent design in Georgia.
Well, I'm from Georgia. Also, teaching intelligent design is a
philosophical issue in which I'm interested. I want everybody involved
in this to be held accountable, but I'll let the people of Louisiana do
the holding for their officials. I have no say in the matter.
> I don't think the new-found
> respect for federalist live-and-let-live principles washes.
Sorry. I actually have a long-standing respect for federalist
live-and-let-live principles, though -- far more so than, say, the
current administration.
> Certainly, one can't expect the state to examine its own performance,
> and it may take outside pressure to reform the Louisiana political
> culture. I think they'd be quite happy to slide back into a corrupt
> but inept form of government, with the acquiensence of the
> voters.
Well, let's let them do their best before we send Pat Robertson in to
assassinate the poor woman.
> In this case an examination of the entire process is warranted,
> hopefully
> a better-run one than the 9/11 commission.
Here, we're agreed.
> The press has gone
> activist and is not particularly accurate so far. Their inclination is
> to expect the feds to do everything, but their expectations and
> the reality of local government primacy are not congruent.
I know that's the talking point, Ernst. There seems to be a great deal
of dispute about how responsibility should have been divided; but once
it became obvious that the state and local governments were overwhelmed,
it was clearly FEMA's duty to step in. Time for Brownie to go.
Stevie Nichts
Perhaps Garrett would be more willing to accept the fact
if it came directly from the Red Cross:
---
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local
authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we
simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and
continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back
into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep
people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
---
Do you still fail to comprehend, Garrett? Local authorities, and
the _state_ Homeland Security Department, requested the Red Cross
not return.
> > Let's get this straight: Republicans like yourself want to blame
> > local authorities for the mess,
>
> Yes, that's exactly right.
Is there any doubt that if those local authorities did not happen
to be Democrats, but were instead Republicans, he would be calling
for their heads?
Martin McPhillips
news:11hvn21...@corp.supernews.com...
Pfffffffftttttt! Yes, indeed, that's
why the Times' own (former) public editor
noted that Krugman was impervious to facts.
WCB
I read Krugman, and often check facts with various online government
websites, anfd Krugman lawys checks out. The far rigght extremist
Krugman haters have never ever checked out, and usually, site no facts.
When Krugman is quoting GAO, CBO and other sites, he's easy to check.
Krugman is almost always right, the naysayers and Bushdroids
never ever are. Krugman is right abiut other things, Bush is an idiot and
the Iraq war is a disaster.
The only thing I do not like about Krugman is that
he won't run for office.
Krugman is worth 1001 Bushite, GOP liars.
Stevie Nichts
You are so amusing! Krugman was wrong about the Bataan, as he is
wrong about so very many things.
> In fact, shipments of food, water, fuel and medicines
> have been routinely blocked by FEMA.
As usual, you're wrong. At best, you are emulating Krugman
and selectively misstating the facts. At worst, you are
behaving like Krugman and lying about them.
---
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
But experts say when natural disasters strike, it is the primary
responsibility of state and local governments -- not the federal
government -- to respond.
New Orleans' own comprehensive emergency plan raises the specter
of "having large numbers of people ... stranded" and promises "the
city ... will utilize all available resources to quickly and
safely evacuate threatened areas."
"Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to
transport themselves," the plan states.
When Hurricane Katrina hit, however, that plan was not followed
completely.
...There's no question the federal government plays a major role
in disaster relief. But federal officials say in order to get
involved, they must first be asked to do so by state officials.
As one FEMA official told ABC News, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco
failed to submit a request for help in a timely manner.
Shortly before Katrina hit, she sent President Bush a request
asking for shelter and provisions, but didn't specifically ask for
help with evacuations. One aide to the governor told ABC News
today Blanco thought city officials were taking care of the
evacuation.
---
Allow me to pre-empt another disproven canard:
---
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local
authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we
simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and
continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back
into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep
people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
---
Is any of this getting through?
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
The Red Cross has released an official statement:
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
====
The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to
request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
and encourage others to come into the city.
====
I again demand that you either denounce the State of Louisiana
government or,
alternatively, to admit that the people on the ground at the site who
made the
decision may have had a point.
chris.holt
> Certainly, one can't expect the state to examine its own performance,
> and it may take outside pressure to reform the Louisiana political
> culture. I think they'd be quite happy to slide back into a corrupt
> but inept form of government, with the acquiensence of the
> voters.
Quite possibly; but that's been going on for decades
(centuries) both in Louisiana and in many other states.
What mechanism of outside pressure are you thinking of
that wouldn't itself be subject to corruption? I can
think of a few possibilities, but I'm interested in
what you're imagining.
--
chris.holt
> The Red Cross has released an official statement:
>
> http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
> ====
> The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to
> request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
> following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
> and encourage others to come into the city.
> ====
Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the chain of command
above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
towards the Feds? I'm asking because apparently part of
the delay was a bunch of people trying to figure it out,
rather than doing anything. So I wondered what the result
was, or if it was just a matter of buck-passing and CYA.
--
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
wrote:
or conclude Garrett did not tell the truth, and that the lack of paper
trail, and the total lack of any confirmation in any other news
agency, supports the view that Garrett has the story wrong.
Using the argument - it's A or B when there is another possibility - C
- is a form of logical error.
VRWC Destruction Machine
>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
Wrong!
Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water
The Red Cross was reportedly ready to deliver food, water and other
supplies to flood-ravaged refugees who were sweltering inside New
Orleans' Superdome last week - but the relief was blocked by
bureaucrats who worked for Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco.
Fox News Channel's Major Garrett reported Wednesday that the Red Cross
had "trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all sorts of things
ready to go ... to the Superdome and Convention Center."
The Red Cross was ready. I got off the phone with one of their
officials. They had a vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food,
hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go where? To the
Superdome and convention center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana
Department of Homeland Security told them they could not go.
The Red Cross tells me that state agency in Louisiana said, look, we
do not want to create a magnet for more people to come to the
Superdome or convention center, we want to get them out. So at the
same time local officials were screaming where is the food, where is
the water? The Red Cross was standing by ready, the Louisiana
Department of Homeland Security said you can't go.
Survivors that show up at the Louisiana Superdome and Convention
Center are S.O.L.
Did CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, and MSNBC report it?
-
Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them.
But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at
themselves in the mirror.
-Ann Coulter
WCB
One. Start reprofessionalizing state and federal functions.
and agencies. When you start appointing political flunkies
and their old college roommates to stuff like FEMA, you get
crap. When the disaster turns into an immediate windfall again for
Haliburton, you know we are going to get screwed.
When Congress and the president turn a deaf ear to pleas
for adeuqate funding for 4 1/2 yeras, we can start with professionalizing
the GOP again.
Vote those bastards out.
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
WCB
Bush. The Feds wasted days trying to get Blanco
to sign off on abandoning Lousiana to the Feds
and stepping aside, doing little or nothing.
Of course, has she, the GOP would use that "abandonment"
against her politically.
Ernst Blofeld
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr. wrote:
> >> > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> >> > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> >The Fox News Channel's Major Garrett was just on my show extending the
> >story he had just reported on Brit Hume's show: The Red Cross is
> >confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets
> >and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention
> >Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked
> >from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state
> >government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome
> >and/or Convention Center. Garrett has no paper trail yet, but will
> >follow up on his verbal confirmation from sources at the highest levels
> >of the Red Cross.
> >====
> >
> >So I presume that you are now willing to publicly denounce the Lousiana
> >state
> >government for their savage policies. Or, perhaps, come to the
> >conclusion
> >that both FEMA and state government had a point.
>
> or conclude Garrett did not tell the truth, and that the lack of paper
> trail, and the total lack of any confirmation in any other news
> agency, supports the view that Garrett has the story wrong.
Since the Red Cross has confirmed the story, this is not the case:
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
And there was plenty of other confirmation of the story. I posted
several of them. Would that Paul Krugman and midtowng check
their facts as carefully as I do.
Midtowng was outraged--outraged!--by the story, and felt compelled
to denounce those responsible, at least when he thought they were
Republicans. Now that it has been shown that they work for a government
headed by a Democratic politician he's gone curiously silent.
Apparently
the event is not outrage-worthy anymore.
Of course, it may also be that the people on the ground at the
Superdome made a decision based on the facts they had at the
time. But accepting that proposition demands that he curb his
righteous indignation, and where's the fun in that?
Ernst Blofeld
chris.holt wrote:
> Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the chain of command
> above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
> towards the Feds? I'm asking because apparently part of
> the delay was a bunch of people trying to figure it out,
> rather than doing anything. So I wondered what the result
> was, or if it was just a matter of buck-passing and CYA.
A state agency can't be "federalized". They always ultimately
answer to the state governor. The NG is an odd duck because
the members are simultaneously members of both a federal
organization and a separate state organization.
At best Louisiana state agencies can accept coordination with
federal agencies.
PLMerite
>
>
> Bush. The Feds wasted days trying to get Blanco
> to sign off on abandoning Lousiana to the Feds
> and stepping aside, doing little or nothing.
>
> Of course, has she, the GOP would use that "abandonment"
> against her politically.
There are legal requirements to be met.
The left loves the Bush=Hitler line, but continues to whine when he doesn't
act like a dictator.
Regards, PLMerite
--
"Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
GW Chimpzilla
> On 5 Sep 2005 19:58:47 -0700, gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
>
>>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
>> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
>
> Wrong!
>
> Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water
>
If the human misery that followed Hurricane Katrina has been shocking and
painful, the federal government's shifting explanations for its needless
severity have been utterly shameful.
That assessment is not part of some political, postdisaster "blame game," but an
insistence that accountability for preparing for and responding to a major U.S.
disaster be placed squarely where it belongs: the federal government and its
emergency-response program, FEMA.
The Bush administration's attempts to shift accountability elsewhere -- first
to the victims stuck in New Orleans for not leaving, later to Louisiana
officials and "bureaucrats" -- are an appalling use of political tactics in the
highly inappropriate realm of human suffering and pain, of lives saved and
lives lost.
The White House organized a PR effort directed by political adviser
Karl Rove, master of political attack-machine tactics. The New York Times
reported Monday that the administration, alarmed at the potential political
fallout of its poor performance, regrouped over the weekend and mapped out its
strategy. The plan has rolled out exactly as the Times' report said it would:
Administration officials appearing in public have downplayed the need to
quickly assess failures, and have tried instead to discuss what's being done
now. To the extent that they -- and allies who appear or write in their stead
-- do discuss failures, it is to point the finger at local and state officials
or "bureaucrats." Officials doing just that include Homeland Security chief
Michael Chertoff, whose accountability is right up there with FEMA director
Michael Brown's.
These tactics are beyond outrageous. No state, no locality can take the lead in
dealing with an emergency like Katrina. That's why FEMA was created. That is
why Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared a state of emergency on Friday,
Aug. 26, when Katrina was a Category 2 hurricane. It is why the Gulf Coast
states requested help from the Pentagon that same day.
Exactly what went wrong, in both the planning and the response, must be assessed
in short order. The ability of the United States to prepare for and respond to
disaster -- whatever the origin -- is vital to its security. No less, it is
critical to America's ability to honor its shared values, which include
attending to the poor, the sick, the vulnerable -- the very people who suffered
most from the government's incompetence last week. Yet the White House delays
the reckoning while pointing fingers at others.
Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful.
Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
You are wasting both of our time.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
"The Homeland Security Department has requested and continues to
request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans,"
said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross.
"Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local
authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for
access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
[...]
Homeland Security made the call. The LA national guard mearly carried
out the orders. So give it a rest.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
Gee. How about 99/1? Or maybe 120/62?
What random number should be apply to this situation, Don?
1880 Dead
<vega...@att.net> wrote:
>On 5 Sep 2005 19:58:47 -0700, gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
>
>>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
>> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
>
>Wrong!
>
>Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water
>
>The Red Cross was reportedly ready to deliver food, water and other
>supplies to flood-ravaged refugees who were sweltering inside New
>Orleans' Superdome last week - but the relief was blocked by
>bureaucrats who worked for Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco.
>
>Fox News Channel's Major Garrett reported Wednesday that the Red Cross
>had "trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all sorts of things
>ready to go ... to the Superdome and Convention Center."
>
>The Red Cross was ready. I got off the phone with one of their
>officials. They had a vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food,
>hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go where? To the
>Superdome and convention center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana
>Department of Homeland Security told them they could not go.
There is no such thing as "The Louisiana Department of Homeland
Security" DHS is a Federal Agency, and includes FEMA.
Scott Erb
<gjoh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1126220107....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All I can say is that while blame can be given at all levels, a true leader
would have cut his vacation short before the storm hit, made sure things
were ready for a worst case scenario, monitored the situation, and took
charge. If there had been leadership at the highest level, then a lot of
this might not have happened. I don't think the buck stops at the mayor's
office.
-scott
http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > No one,
> > not Democrat or Republican, was crying for a more aggressive evacuation
> > before the hurricane hit.
>
> Bush called the LA governor on Saturday to ask for a mandatory
> evacuation.
That's a now well-run lie that the conservative media is pushing out:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509060011
While numerous conservative weblogs had earlier made nearly identical
claims, news reports indicate that Bush called Louisiana Gov. Kathleen
Blanco -- not Nagin -- on the morning of August 28 to ensure that such
precautions would be taken. Moreover, Blanco stated that Bush called
"just before" she and Nagin held a press conference to announce the
mandatory evacuation, casting doubt over Hume and Wilson's suggestion
that Bush's phone call triggered the decision to evacuate.
The August 28 press conference began with Nagin's statement that "a
mandatory evacuation order is hereby called for all of the parish of
Orleans." Following Nagin's remarks, Blanco commented on the grave
situation facing the city:
BLANCO: I want to reiterate what the mayor has said. This is a very
dangerous time. Just before we walked into this room, President Bush
called and told me to share with all of you that he is very concerned
about the citizens. He is concerned about the impact that this
hurricane would have on our people. And he asked me to please ensure
that there would be a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans.
[...]
And that is exactly what happened. But no one asked for the police to
go kicking in doors to get people out. That only started happening as
of yesterday. What's more, there simply wasn't enough time or resources
to force people out.
>
> > When the flood walls failed it was too late. The city filled up in a
> > matter of hours. Nothing could be done at that point except sending out
> > the police, national guard and firefighters to save people as quickly
> > as possible. This was done.
>
> A substantial number (I've heard up to 50%) of the police simply
> left their jobs.
The number appears to be about 30%. That's terrible, but hardly the
fault of the mayor or governor.
MikeSoja
<wbar...@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> posted:
>chris.holt wrote:
>> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
>>> Certainly, one can't expect the state to examine its own performance,
>>> and it may take outside pressure to reform the Louisiana political
>>> culture. I think they'd be quite happy to slide back into a corrupt
>>> but inept form of government, with the acquiensence of the
>>> voters.
>> Quite possibly; but that's been going on for decades
>> (centuries) both in Louisiana and in many other states.
>> What mechanism of outside pressure are you thinking of
>> that wouldn't itself be subject to corruption? I can
>> think of a few possibilities, but I'm interested in
>> what you're imagining.
>One. Start reprofessionalizing state and federal functions.
>and agencies.
Nice try, but the likelihood of that happening (precisely zero) is
about equal to your grasp of the failures of the last week.
> When you start appointing political flunkies
>and their old college roommates to stuff like FEMA, you get
>crap.
Other agencies that you might not be aware of where appointments are
made *politically*:
FBI
CIA
FAA
Dept Education
Dept Labor
Dept Commerce
HUD
CDC
Dept Justice
Dept Interior
INS
Dept Health & Human Services
FDA
Dept Energy
Dept Defense
Dept State
etc. ad nauseum.
The simple truth that you'll never have the brains to grasp is that
every one of those are by their nature political agencies. The only
way to get the politics out of those political agencies is to kill
them dead, and let free individuals take their functions (I got to
make my own plans to save my own life? Holy shit!) to themselves
as they so choose.
> When the disaster turns into an immediate windfall again for
>Haliburton, you know we are going to get screwed.
I think you're screwed when you live below sea level and you're
staring at a category four hurricane and you've never thought about
how you're going to get out of its way before (despite years of
warnings.) Yeah, that's Darwin in action, bubba.
>When Congress and the president turn a deaf ear to pleas
>for adeuqate funding for 4 1/2 yeras, we can start with professionalizing
>the GOP again.
>Vote those bastards out.
Guess what, dummy? There's a long line of new bastards lined up
behind the old bastards, just waiting to take their place and your
money, and just as willing and able to leave you holding the bag of
shit you're holding now.
Vote all you want, and don't forget that Hillary is already talking
about *your* sacrificing a little more so that she can, with the
help of the big gun to the head, put the squeeze on the oil
companies.
Vote, baby, vote. There's plenty more misery left to be doled out.
Don't think for a moment that the ugly face of socialism you've been
staring at for the last ten days is all there is.
Vote! You KNOW you can find better politicians. Why, they come
self-recommended.
Vote!
You'll fix everything.
Mike Soja
Ernst Blofeld
1880 Dead wrote:
> >The Red Cross was ready. I got off the phone with one of their
> >officials. They had a vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food,
> >hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go where? To the
> >Superdome and convention center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana
> >Department of Homeland Security told them they could not go.
>
> There is no such thing as "The Louisiana Department of Homeland
> Security" DHS is a Federal Agency, and includes FEMA.
Are you saying that this web site is a phony?
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/
And this is phony, too?
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/homeland/hls-main-StateResp.htm
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> You are wasting both of our time.
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
>
> "The Homeland Security Department has requested and continues to
> request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans,"
> said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross.
> "Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local
> authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for
> access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
> [...]
>
> Homeland Security made the call. The LA national guard mearly carried
> out the orders. So give it a rest.
There is, of course, a _Louisiana_ Homeland Security Department,
and that was the one that the Red Cross said made the call. The Red
Cross itself has confirmed this:
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
"The STATE Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to
request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
and encourage others to come into the city."
(emphasis added for the attention-deficit impaired)
I again demand that you denounce the state agency that made this
decision
(which I remind you is run by Democratic governor Blanco) . Or you can
climb down from the righteous indignation and agree that the people on
the scene who made the decision may have had a point.
Ernst Blofeld
chris.holt wrote:
> Quite possibly; but that's been going on for decades
> (centuries) both in Louisiana and in many other states.
Louisiana is in a class of its own. Their public officials fill
the federal minimum-security prisons across the nation.
The local paper had a story on "prisons of the convicted
Louisiana officials" when I was there. I need only remind
you of Edwin Edwards.
> What mechanism of outside pressure are you thinking of
> that wouldn't itself be subject to corruption?
Widespread national publicity would probably work quite
nicely.
Scott Erb
"Ernst Blofeld" <blof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126223829.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
While certainly Louisiana can be criticized, it would be fundamentally
dishonest to use criticism of Louisiana as a way to create cover for the
massive failures at the federal level, and the failure in leadership from
the President. If you're playing the blame game, it's fundamentally wrong
to use blame of one agency or level of government as a way to try to
whitewash another.
http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
r_c_...@hushmail.com
1880 Dead wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:45:50 GMT, VRWC Destruction Machine
> <vega...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5 Sep 2005 19:58:47 -0700, gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> >
> >>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
> >> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> >
> >Wrong!
> >
> >Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water
> >
> >The Red Cross was reportedly ready to deliver food, water and other
> >supplies to flood-ravaged refugees who were sweltering inside New
> >Orleans' Superdome last week - but the relief was blocked by
> >bureaucrats who worked for Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco.
> >
> >Fox News Channel's Major Garrett reported Wednesday that the Red Cross
> >had "trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all sorts of things
> >ready to go ... to the Superdome and Convention Center."
> >
> >The Red Cross was ready. I got off the phone with one of their
> >officials. They had a vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food,
> >hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go where? To the
> >Superdome and convention center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana
> >Department of Homeland Security told them they could not go.
>
> There is no such thing as "The Louisiana Department of Homeland
> Security" DHS is a Federal Agency, and includes FEMA.
The government entity that the previous poster is referring to is
probably the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness (LHLS & EP). The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security
And Emergency Preparedness leads, coordinates, and supports the
emergency management system, in order to protect lives and prevent the
loss of property from all hazards. This is accomplished through
"partnerships with the Military Department in New Orleans, the
Governor's Office, the Legislature, our Congressional staff, State
officials, Parish and City officials, Parish Emergency Directors,
individual citizens and the Federal Emergency Management Agency
(FEMA)". See:
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/agencyrelated/aboutagency.htm
GW Chimpzilla
Somebody got the real skinny:
Update [2005-9-3 1:56:56 by shock]: JTML pointed out in a comment that the Red
Cross FAQ actually says the "state Homeland Security department", so I just
called them too. (This time I took better notes.) I called the Communications
Center for the Louisianna Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness at 225-925-7500. After an operator ("that's above my pay grade")
and some other "officer" (at the Operations desk, I think), I ended up at the
Media relations desk talking to a really cool and helpful guy, Lt. Kevin Cowan
(Public Information Officer) who said I could quote him ("that's my job").
Although I didn't get everything typed word for word (the parts in quotation
marks are though), I read him my notes when we were finished, so this is now
'confirmed'. Here goes...
"As part of the disaster plan there's an agreement between the state and the Red
Cross for them not to enter."
He didn't know the exact details of the agreement, but he said it had to do with
"safety issues" since this is "still a disaster area and still unsafe" with
things like "high water, etc."
When I asked specifically about the statement on the Red Cross webpage that said
it was because their "presence would keep people from evacuating", he said this
wasn't the reason.
Me: "Who on your end made this agreement with the red cross?"
He checked with the Operations desk and came back and told me it was probably a
decision between the director of their agency, General Landreneau, the
Governor, and Mike Brown at FEMA. He said he didn't know the exact groups in
these agencies that worked out the agreement, but "ultimately, they're the ones
in charge who sign off on it". He said "it's all a coordinated effort and
guidelines are established." The point is they "don't want to put anyone at
undue risk". (I was thinking "anyone, who? surely not the people of New
Orleans!", but I didn't say anything because he was being so cool.)
Here's the kicker. He then told me that this agreement was for any and all
disasters, not just the one in Louisiana!
I asked him how long this policy had been in effect, and he told me, "It's a
work in progress; it's always changing."
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> > >
> > > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> >
> > #1) That quote isn't in there.
>
> story he had just reported on Brit Hume's show: The Red Cross is
> confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets
> and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention
> Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked
> from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state
> government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome
> and/or Convention Center. Garrett has no paper trail yet, but will
> follow up on his verbal confirmation from sources at the highest levels
> of the Red Cross.
> ====
>
> So I presume that you are now willing to publicly denounce the Lousiana
> state
> government for their savage policies.
More Republican lies.
Quote from the National Response Plan:
The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring
the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all
Incidents of National Significance.
. . .
During actual or potential Incidents of National Significance,the
overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is
executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security.
. . .
The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at
the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and
provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.
[...]
In other words, the state Homeland Security reports to the TOP, not
to the governor.
> Or, perhaps, come to the
> conclusion that both FEMA and state government had a point.
To not bring supplies to people dying from thirst? Are you insane, or
just stupid from swallowing too much Republican political spin?
>
> > #2) Red Cross wasn't "other relief agencies"
>
> Huh? Relief agencies other than the red cross said it was too dangerous
> as well.
Prove it.
I've seen post by people who called up the Salvation Army and Red
Cross, and they gave a reason OTHER than security:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/3/02454/07418
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/9/3/02454/07418?pid=25#89
Oh, but I forgot that this isn't a conservative blog, so everything is
a lie.
My bad.
>
> > #3) and more importantly, you left out this quote:
> > "They won't let anyone in there. You have to be FEMA-certified and I am
> > not," he said.
>
> So?
Wow! You really are getting more dense as you get older.
>
> > > An entirely reasonable judgement call for the people on the ground.
> > > They're trying to get people out of the city, and with the security and
> > > looting situation what it is they probably don't want random people
> > > wandering around.
> >
> > It's reasonable NOW! It wasn't reasonable a week ago.
>
> The security situation was bad immediately after the hurricane.
> that was precisely when it was most dangerous.
So for a couple dozen looters, you will sacrifice thousands of lives.
That sounds like Republican values to me too.
>
> > Let's get this straight: Republicans like yourself want to blame
> > local authorities for the mess,
>
> Yes, that's exactly right.
Yes, politics trumpts the actual interests of America yet again for
Republicans.
> Your Red Cross example appears to be backed
> up by the state government you are attempting to absolve.
Nope, but thanks for playing.
> And this is why the left's gleeful blame-fest lacks credibility.
And yet the polls say that most Americans blame the Bush
Administation and FEMA for the disaster.
Only 38% give Bush good grades for handling this disaster, which also
happens to be his approval rating.
Not surprising since that 38% of hard-core Republicans would find a
reason to blame liberals if Bush raped and killed a girl scout in the
West Wing and then stuck her head on a pike on the front lawn.
And yes, I'm including you in that 38%.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> > > > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
> > > >
> > > > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > > > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> > >
> > > #1) That quote isn't in there.
>
> Orleans mayor, or to agree that the people on the ground at the
> Superdome
> may have had a point about the security situation.
>
> Hugh Hewitt:
[snip]
> ...
> HH: Now any in the 'they'...is the New Orleans' mayor's staff involved
> as well? Or the New Orleans police department?
>
> MG: Not that I'm aware of, because the decision was made and
> communicated to the Red Cross by the state department of Homeland
> Security and the state National Guard. Both of which report to the
> governor.
> ====
Not surprisingly, you believe anything a conservative blog posts even
when it doesn't make sense.
Scott Erb
<gjoh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1126228136.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Your Red Cross example appears to be backed
> > up by the state government you are attempting to absolve.
>
> Nope, but thanks for playing.
Note the game he's playing. He is trying to play the blame game and attack
state and local government in order to deflect criticism from the Bush
administration.
Any state and local governmental failure is irrelevant in terms of judging
the failure of the federal government, and especially the failure of
leadership by the President.
His game is to change the task from asking "did the Administration and the
President handle things well," to "were there mistakes by the state and
local officials." If the debate can be about that rather than the
administration, he "wins" a small victory because he has altered the
discourse and distracted people from the real issue.
The fact is that there were many mistakes by local and state officials. But
FEMA was especially incompetent, and Bush kept vacationing and traveling to
Arizona and California even as things disintegrated. Then he claimed no one
expected the levees to break, hemmed and hawed, and did nothing to force
FEMA to improve conditions until the New Orleans mayor harshly criticized
the help from the Feds, and the news media reported on the dire crisis.
The fact is that a good leader would have taken control and responsibility
Tuesday evening and had been totally engaged.
The fact is that Bush failed. And that fact rings true regardless of
whether or not the Louisiana governor and New Orleans mayor failed as well.
The voters there can judge their governor and mayor. We won't vote again on
this President, but this does weaken him, and shows how the shift of
resources to an unnecessary and costly war has helped make us unprepared for
what could happen at home.
-scott
http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> > gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > > > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > > > "Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > > > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now."
> > >
> > > #1) That quote isn't in there.
> >
> >
> > ====
> > Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that
> > they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.
> > "Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local
> > authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for
> > access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
> >
> > Federal Emergency Management Agency, were not returned yesterday.
> >
> > Though frustrated, Hosler understood the reasons. The goal is to move
> > people out of an uninhabitable city, and relief operations might keep
> > them there. Security is so bad that she fears feeding stations might
> > get ransacked.
> > ====
> >
> > Note that this includes "local authorities" and the NG. And, for that
> > matter, the Red Cross
> > representative _agrees_ that it would be dangerous.
>
> if it came directly from the Red Cross:
>
And I've posted this link myself. Thanks for reposting it.
> ---
> http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
>
> Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
>
> Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local
> authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we
> simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
>
> The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and
> continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back
> people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
> ---
> Do you still fail to comprehend, Garrett? Local authorities, and
> the _state_ Homeland Security Department, requested the Red Cross
> not return.
>
Half right. It doesn't say local authorities requested Red Cross not
to enter New Orleans. Please read slower next time.
The other part you are correct about - state Homeland Security
(using FEMA to do that) kept the Red Cross out. What you don't
understand is that state Homeland Security answers to FEDERAL Homeland
Security.
> > > Let's get this straight: Republicans like yourself want to blame
> > > local authorities for the mess,
> >
> > Yes, that's exactly right.
>
> Is there any doubt that if those local authorities did not happen
> to be Democrats, but were instead Republicans, he would be calling
> for their heads?
Sounds like projection to me.
BTW, are any of you guys aware that the mayor of New Orleans was a
Republican until the last election?
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > > FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
> > > > http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
>
>
> http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
> ====
> request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
> following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
> and encourage others to come into the city.
>
> I again demand that you either denounce the State of Louisiana
> government or,
And for the third time, the state Homeland Security answers to the
FEDERAL Homeland Security.
> alternatively, to admit that the people on the ground at the site who
> made the
> decision may have had a point.
The only amazing thing here is that you think that denying thousands
of people much needed supplies is a good thing.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> >
> > http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
> > ====
> > The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to
> > request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
> > following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
> > and encourage others to come into the city.
> > ====
>
> above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
> towards the Feds?
It heads towards the Feds. But don't expect Don to tell you that.
Scott Erb
<gjoh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1126228315.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> Not surprisingly, you believe anything a conservative blog posts even
> when it doesn't make sense.
> Quote from the National Response Plan:
>
> The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring
> the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all
> Incidents of National Significance.
> . . .
> During actual or potential Incidents of National Significance,the
> overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is
> executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security.
> . . .
> The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at
> the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and
> provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.
Exactly. Nothing prevented FEMA, the DHS and especially the President from
taking an active leadership role here in what is almost certain to be
America's worst natural disaster in history, with damage and probably deaths
greater than 9-11. He failed. If the best they can do to defend the
President is to try to say, "well Louisiana's governor made mistakes too"
(the equivalent of 'bobby took a cookie too!'), then they are really
admitting it was Presidential failure.
Better to follow the lead of Republicans like Susan Collins and Olympia
Snowe, who harshly condemn the lack of federal coordination. Better for
Republicans to say, "This was a failure." To be honest, admit a mistake.
President Bush, if he were to apologize publically in a few weeks for the
mismanagement and his slowness to appreciate the disaster, would probably be
forgiven by a number of people, especially if he made it clear he was taking
strong efforts to make sure that the lessons were learned. Somehow I doubt
he'll do it.
gjoh...@eudoramail.com
What do you know? A link that I posted days ago. It looks like you
finally got around to reading it. Good for you!
>
> And there was plenty of other confirmation of the story. I posted
> several of them. Would that Paul Krugman and midtowng check
> their facts as carefully as I do.
By looking at a conservative blog. Wow! Amazing fact-checking there
Don!
>
> Midtowng was outraged--outraged!--by the story, and felt compelled
> to denounce those responsible,
How dare I be outraged by the simple fact of letting tens of thousands
suffer and/or die? What kind of values does that show me to have?
> at least when he thought they were
> Republicans. Now that it has been shown that they work for a government
> headed by a Democratic politician
At least that is what your conservative blog says.
Quote from the National Response Plan:
The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring
the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all
Incidents of National Significance.
. . .
During actual or potential Incidents of National Significance,the
overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is
executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security.
. . .
The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at
the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and
provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.
[...]
The original article I posted has the Red Cross official saying it
was FEMA that blocked them. The Red Cross link says the state Homeland
Security gave the order.
Of course the fact that the state Homeland Security answers to the
FEDERAL Homeland Security, and that FEMA is a department under the
Federal Homeland Security, means nothing compared to a conservative
blog, right Don?
> he's gone curiously silent.
Oh, yes. I was away from usenet for a day and that means I must have
nothing to say. If I don't respond to your pissing contest, then you
must have won, right Don?
> Apparently the event is not outrage-worthy anymore.
Got any more straw for those strawmen, Don?
It couldn't be that someone like you, who only cares about your
political agenda can't even imagine someone who actually cares about
people, could it Don?
>
> Of course, it may also be that the people on the ground at the
> Superdome made a decision based on the facts they had at the
> time. But accepting that proposition demands that he curb his
> righteous indignation, and where's the fun in that?
Who am I to have righteous indignation when tens of thousands of
people were left to suffer or die? It's not like you are angry about
it, so why should anyone else be, right Don?
You're pathetic.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > I again call upon you to either DENOUNCE the Lousiana Governor and New
> > Orleans mayor, or to agree that the people on the ground at the
> > Superdome
> > may have had a point about the security situation.
> > as well? Or the New Orleans police department?
> >
> > MG: Not that I'm aware of, because the decision was made and
> > communicated to the Red Cross by the state department of Homeland
> > Security and the state National Guard. Both of which report to the
> > governor.
> > ====
>
> Not surprisingly, you believe anything a conservative blog posts even
> when it doesn't make sense.
Classic. Back when Dan Rather was pushing phony documents on 60
minutes, you said it wasn't "logical" for them to be fakes. This seems
to be your fallback when confronted with inconvienient facts.
As I and others have posted several times, the Red Cross confirms that
it was the
state agency that forbade them from operating. Do you want me to
post the URL yet again?
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
====
The STATE Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to
request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans
following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating
and encourage others to come into the city.
====
(emphasis added)
This is pretty straightforward: you were outraged by the event when you
thought
a Republican was responsible. Now, when confronted with evidence that
a Democrat-run state agency was actually responsible, you're evading
and
changing the subject, even when the information is directly confirmed
by
the Red Cross itself.
"Talking points", indeed.
Ernst Blofeld
> the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and
> provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.
> [...]
>
> In other words, the state Homeland Security reports to the TOP, not
> to the governor.
Wrong. Louisiana Homeland Security is a state agency that happens to
share the name "Homeland Security" with the federal agency. Like
Zepp, who earlier claimed that it didn't exist, you're just making
stuff
up.
See http://gov.louisiana.gov/cab_members.asp
Which lists the "Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness" as
one of the cabinet positions in the governor's office.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at
> the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and
> provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.
This doesn't say what you think it says.
See http://gov.louisiana.gov/cab_members.asp
Which lists the "Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness" as
one of the cabinet positions in the governor's office.
I demand that you denounce the actions of the Louisiana State
government
mentioned, or to retract your outrage.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> The other part you are correct about - state Homeland Security
> (using FEMA to do that) kept the Red Cross out. What you don't
> understand is that state Homeland Security answers to FEDERAL Homeland
> Security.
Wrong.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > Since the Red Cross has confirmed the story, this is not the case:
> >
> > http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
>
> What do you know? A link that I posted days ago. It looks like you
> finally got around to reading it. Good for you!
This is a lie. You have never posted this link to the Red Cross. This
is
easily confirmed by google. It is also unsurprising, since it
contradicts
your assertion that federal officials were responsible.
In your frantic covering for a Democratic governor you have apparently
decided that outright lies are an acceptable tactic.
And over what? To prevent yourself from denouncing a state agency?
> > at least when he thought they were
> > Republicans. Now that it has been shown that they work for a government
> > headed by a Democratic politician
> The original article I posted has the Red Cross official saying it
> was FEMA that blocked them. The Red Cross link says the state Homeland
> Security gave the order.
> Of course the fact that the state Homeland Security answers to the
> FEDERAL Homeland Security, and that FEMA is a department under the
> Federal Homeland Security,
this is a lie as well.
See http://gov.louisiana.gov/cab_members.asp
Which lists the "Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness" as
one of the cabinet positions in the governor's office.
I demand a retraction and denunciation of the Louisiana state agency.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the chain of command
> > above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
> > towards the Feds?
>
> It heads towards the Feds.
Is that why it is listed as a cabinet post at the Democratic governor
Blanco's home page?
Docky Wocky
FEMA, then all kinds aid product - human, solid, liquid, and gaseous, would
be rushed headlong and willy-nilly into the crisis area - even if the stuff
was never needed. The liberal gurus on the receiving end would juat have to
pick and choose what they wanted , or needed, then hide, steal, surplus, and
waste the rest. Everything would just descend on the center, pile up, mill
around, stand around, and that would be that.
Except, of course, for the crowing about how great they are, how smart they
was, and "who gets the bill for all this stuff?"
VRWC Destruction Machine
<zepp#221118...@nospamzeppscommentaries.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:45:50 GMT, VRWC Destruction Machine
><vega...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>On 5 Sep 2005 19:58:47 -0700, gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm
>>> FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
>>
>>Wrong!
>>
>>Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water
>>
>>The Red Cross was reportedly ready to deliver food, water and other
>>supplies to flood-ravaged refugees who were sweltering inside New
>>Orleans' Superdome last week - but the relief was blocked by
>>bureaucrats who worked for Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco.
>>
>>Fox News Channel's Major Garrett reported Wednesday that the Red Cross
>>had "trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all sorts of things
>>ready to go ... to the Superdome and Convention Center."
>>
>>The Red Cross was ready. I got off the phone with one of their
>>officials. They had a vanguard, Brit, of trucks with water, food,
>>hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go where? To the
>>Superdome and convention center. Why weren't they there? The Louisiana
>>Department of Homeland Security told them they could not go.
>
>There is no such thing as "The Louisiana Department of Homeland
>Security" DHS is a Federal Agency, and includes FEMA.
The next time you see the Wizard of Oz, ask him for a brain,
Zepperhead.
The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness
(LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
(LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the
Louisiana Military Department. In 1976 LHLS & EP via the Louisiana
government reorganization, was moved to the Department of Public
Safety (DPS). In 1990 LHLS & EP was transferred again to the Military
Department. In 2003 the Agency name was changed to the Louisiana
Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, reflecting the
additional responsibilities to the State and her citizens.
I'll await your ignorant retort.
VRWC Destruction Machine
wrote:
Since 1990, LHLS & EP has been under the leadership of two Directors,
Major General Ansel M. Stroud and Major General Bennett C. Landreneau.
The staff at the Baton Rouge office has also undergone many changes
and adjusted personnel to accommodate a number of large disasters such
as Hurricane Andrew, Tropical Storm Allison, and more recently the
damages resulting from Isidore and Lilli in 2002. The inclusion of the
Homeland Security mission has also created additional staffing
requirements.
Major General Bennett C. Landreneau is the Adjutant General for
Louisiana. He is responsible for the deployment and coordination of
programs, policies and plans affecting the more than 14,000 members of
the Louisiana Army and Air National Guard. He is also the Director of
the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.
The Adjutant General and Director for DHS in Louisiana is Major
General Bennett C. Landreneau, who was appointed to his position in
1997 by former Louisiana Governor Mike Foster, a Republican. He was
re-appointed by current Governor Kathleen Blanco in December 2003.
It appears Blanco is his boss.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > > No one,
> > > not Democrat or Republican, was crying for a more aggressive evacuation
> > > before the hurricane hit.
> >
> > Bush called the LA governor on Saturday to ask for a mandatory
> > evacuation.
>
> That's a now well-run lie that the conservative media is pushing out:
> http://mediamatters.org/items/200509060011
>
> While numerous conservative weblogs had earlier made nearly identical
> claims, news reports indicate that Bush called Louisiana Gov. Kathleen
> Blanco -- not Nagin -- on the morning of August 28 to ensure that such
> precautions would be taken. Moreover, Blanco stated that Bush called
> "just before" she and Nagin held a press conference to announce the
> mandatory evacuation, casting doubt over Hume and Wilson's suggestion
> that Bush's phone call triggered the decision to evacuate.
So, you're confirming that Bush did call on Saturday to ask for a
mandatory
evacuation. One wonders how you go from my statement that "Bush called
the LA governor on Saturday to ask for a mandatory evactuation" to
posting confirmation of exactly that to saying that it is a "lie". I
think
you're deep in double-think territory.
> > A substantial number (I've heard up to 50%) of the police simply
> > left their jobs.
>
> The number appears to be about 30%. That's terrible, but hardly the
> fault of the mayor or governor.
It certainly would ultimately be the responsiblity of the mayor to run
a competent police department that does not loot nor desert their
posts.
Ernst Blofeld
VRWC Destruction Machine wrote:
> The Adjutant General and Director for DHS in Louisiana is Major
> General Bennett C. Landreneau, who was appointed to his position in
> 1997 by former Louisiana Governor Mike Foster, a Republican. He was
> re-appointed by current Governor Kathleen Blanco in December 2003.
>
> It appears Blanco is his boss.
More to the point, he is listed on the "staff and cabinet members" page
of the Louisiana governor.
Ernst Blofeld
gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> > I again demand that you either denounce the State of Louisiana
> > government or,
>
> And for the third time, the state Homeland Security answers to the
> FEDERAL Homeland Security.
And, again, this is false. There is a State agency in Louisiana that
shares a text substring with the federal department. It's still a
state agency, and listed as such on the Louisiana governor's
page.
> > alternatively, to admit that the people on the ground at the site who
> > made the
> > decision may have had a point.
>
> The only amazing thing here is that you think that denying thousands
> of people much needed supplies is a good thing.
Then I guess you're limited to denouncing the state of Louisiana's
Department of Homeland Security--which answers to the
Democratic governor of the State of Louisiana.
The bastards! I mean, they're right there and have more information
about the situation then either of us, and they think it
would create security problems, much like the security problems
that already existed in a Lord of the Flies-like Superdome. And
they insist on second-guessing the keyboard commandos half
a continent away!
Ernst Blofeld
WCB wrote:
> > Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the chain of command
> > above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
> > towards the Feds? I
>
You're apparently under the impression that if you lie fast enough
and often enough you can shout down the truth.
Louisiana Homeland Security reports to the governor. It is a
state agency.
For those of you who flunked remedial American government, the
US has a Federal system. The states are not simply administrative
arms of the national government. They are soverieign within their
areas of competence, which includes local law enforcement.
Local law enforcement does not answer to the president. It
answers to the local, county, or state executive. The national
government can't "federalize" them and order them about.
hob
"Ernst Blofeld" <blof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126231816....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
however, did you check out who fills the top positions in that department?
All are members of the military, who since the Bush reoraginzation of the
NG, now report ONLY to the Commander in Chief.
it is a laison position, not one that takes orders from the governor.
>
hob
the link is to cabinet AND STAFF departments - and note that that HSE
department is staffed by members of the US military, who, ever since GW
removed the NG from state control, report to the commander in chief - not
the governor.
Ernst Blofeld
hob wrote:
> half-truth
> > Wrong. Louisiana Homeland Security is a state agency that happens to
> > share the name "Homeland Security" with the federal agency. Like
> > Zepp, who earlier claimed that it didn't exist, you're just making
> > stuff
> > up.
> >
> > See http://gov.louisiana.gov/cab_members.asp
> >
> > Which lists the "Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
> > Preparedness" as
> > one of the cabinet positions in the governor's office.
>
> however, did you check out who fills the top positions in that department?
>
> All are members of the military, who since the Bush reoraginzation of the
> NG, now report ONLY to the Commander in Chief.
>
> it is a laison position, not one that takes orders from the governor.
They most certainly do take orders from the governor. Until the
guard is federalized it is a state militia and under the command of
the governor. And the guard was NOT federalized.
See
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/09/federal-government-tried-legal.php
See also
http://bioterrorism.slu.edu/bt/official/congress/cugno072301.pdf
A discussion of the duties of the NG in emergencies. Connecticut's
structure
closely matches that of Louisiana.
Note well the critical passage
"While under state control, the chain of command remains exclusively
with the state, ends with the Governor, and The Adjutant General,
regardless of service component, is the commander of the state's
entire Army and Air National Guard. Federalization would replace the
Governor, The Adjutant General and the State Area Command with a
federal Army chain of command."
States are not administrative arms of the national government. They
have powers
and if they insist on their perogatives they can be more than a match
for the
feds. The NG, when not federalized, answers to the state governor. Note
well
also that the state adjunct is a _liason_ to FEMA. He doesn't take
orders from
them.
====
As the Adjutant General of Connecticut, I am entrusted by the Governor
with the authority necessary to carry out all provisions of our state
statutes regarding the Militia, the Connecticut National Guard and the
Office of Emergency Management. I serve as the principal advisor to
the Governor on military matters, emergency operations, and civil
support. As Adjutant General I have two main responsibilities. My
federal responsibility is to serve as the custodian of the Commander in
Chief's (CINC's) forces. I must provide combat-ready soldiers and
airmen when the President federalizes units. In my state capacity as
Adjutant General, I am the senior emergency management official for
Connecticut. I exercise this authority through our Connecticut Office
of Emergency Management. Additionally, in May of 2000, the Governor
directed the Military Department to be the coordinating agency in
Connecticut for counter terrorism domestic preparedness.
Connecticut, along with 22 other states, has the Office of Emergency
Management (OEM) organized
within the State Military Department and under the control of the
Adjutant General. The OEM serves as the principle liaison and
coordinator to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and law
enforcement officials.
...
In recognition of the uniqueness of each state, I offer my comments as
specific to the state of
Connecticut, however you will find the roles, relationships and
responsibilities that I describe consistent throughout the 50 States.
In Connecticut, emergency response contingencies mirror the Federal
Response Plan, and most state agencies have a role during state
emergencies.
Our Governor's role is clearly outlined in both the United States
Constitution and General Statutes of
Connecticut. Though the Governor expects and appreciates the efforts
of the federal government in
preserving the welfare of our citizens and the infrastructure of our
communities, ultimately, during
emergencies, it is the Governor who is responsible for restoring
normalcy to the citizens of his state.
Politically, and I think most of my Adjutant General colleagues will
agree, Governors consider the
emergency response aspect of their overall duties paramount to
maintaining public confidence and trust. Its my experience that during
state emergencies, my Governor, Governor John G. Rowland, is very
involved in the decision making; he leads from the front and is
sensitive and protective of his emergency powers and authority.
...
My colleagues also stated that in defense of the scenario drivers, the
federal players found it difficult and frustrating to deal with all the
different states, with their differing capabilities and the various
powers granted in state statutes regarding civil emergencies. The
federal players wanted to operate as they always operate -- with one
authority and uniform rules of engagement across the nation.
I can't emphasize enough the realities of what occurs in a state
during emergencies. I know those who
advocate a strong federal role often underestimate these realities. The
Governor has the ultimate
responsibility to restore normalcy to his or her citizens and should to
the greatest extent resist
relinquishing control. Dark-Winter proponents of a strong federal role
clearly demonstrated a lack of
understanding of statehood and political realities. Federal agencies
must understand that the victims of Dark Winter, and the victims of any
state emergency for that matter, trust their local and state
governments for relief -- relief delivered by trusted neighbors, first
responders and state Guardsmen -- as they have in past emergencies.
When a strong state chain of command and control is maintained and
federal assets are integrated as needed, unnecessary federalization of
the National Guard is avoided. The Governor maintains control.
Federalizing the National Guard would raise legal issues in respect to
the Dark-Winter operation. The
ability of the federal government to use the National Guard is limited
by the Militia Clause of the
Constitution Clause.[1] The Militia Clause provides for the calling
forth of the Militia to execute the
Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
Congress empowered the President, as
the Commander in Chief, to call forth the Militia.[2] The law,
however, constrains the President in the
federal use of the National Guard, limiting the use to when the
President is unable to execute the federal law with regular forces.[3]
The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of any part of the Army, Air
Force, Navy, or Marines,
including their reserve components, as a posse comitatus ("armed
force") or otherwise to execute the
laws, except as authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress.
...
After the making of numerous time-consuming legal and factual
determinations, little, if anything other than direct access to federal
supplies, is gained by federalizing the National Guard for Dark-Winter
operations. Federalization would effectively restructure the chain of
command. While under state control, the chain of command remains
exclusively with the state, ends with the Governor, and The Adjutant
General, regardless of service component, is the commander of the
state's entire Army and Air National Guard. Federalization would
replace the Governor, The Adjutant General and the State Area Command
with a federal Army chain of command. This changing of command would
create additional logistics and communications problems, as well as
consume valuable time.
The major effect of federalizing is the removal of state control.
State control is vital to operations within a state. The vitality
arises from the trust, a unique aspect of mission efficiency, developed
between state officials through their regular governmental functions,
activities and exercises. Moreover, the Governor has more flexibility
in the use of National Guard forces in emergency situations than
federal commanders, who are constrained by federal law while conducting
military/civil operations within the United States.
...
When dealing with and training for domestic emergencies a few points
must be kept in mind.
· The Governor is in charge.
· We must channel adequate federal resources to our state and
local first responders.
· State agencies possess unique skills and assets, which must
be included the response plans.
· Future exercises, to be credible, should always include the
National Guard, State and municipal
agencies.
====
Ernst Blofeld
Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> There is, of course, a _Louisiana_ Homeland Security Department,
> and that was the one that the Red Cross said made the call. The Red
> Cross itself has confirmed this:
See also
http://www.radioblogger.com/#000970
and note well, "state agency answerable to the governor".
====
MG: A couple of things. First of all, it established on tonight's
Special Report, that it wasn't just the Red Cross. It was the Salvation
Army. Both agencies, both organizations were ready, prepared,
pre-positioned, eager, but were thwarted in their efforts to bring
supplies, basic supplies...not everything these people needed, but core
supplies to the Superdome, and then eventually, the convention center.
Why? Because the New Orleans Department of Homeland Security said look.
Our plan is to evacuate these people. Marty Evans, the President and
the CEO of the American Red Cross, said on camera...you don't have to
believe me. Believe her. You can read her own eyes, saying look. We
were told if we came in, we would create an atmosphere that would lead
people to stay, and give them the feeling that they should stay. And
the state did not want that.
HH: Now you said the New Orleans Department of Homeland Security. Did
you mean the Louisiana Department...
MG: I'm sorry. Yes. Louisiana. Right. Because it is a state agency that
is answerable to the governor, although the governor did not explicitly
make this statement, I'm told so far.
HH: Who made this decision?
MG: I've also asked the Red Cross to create for me, and they've
promised to do so, a timeline and a paper trail.
...
HH: And what did the Salvation Army tell you?
MG: The Salvation Army basically said look. We...first of all, both
agencies also want to let people know that they've served the needs of
thousands of people who got out, and who got out just a little bit to
high ground, north of New Orleans. But they couldn't get in to meet
those needs. They asked to get in. They were prepared with their...the
Salvation Army has these ever-familiar portable kitchen canteens, is
what they call them. They can actually make food, produce food on spot,
and distribute it there. People line up. We've seen that at hurricanes
and other natural disasters. They were ready. Not allowed in. At first,
it was this idea that we don't want to create a magnet at the
evacuation site. Secondarily, it became an issue of well, there's lots
of water, and we can't assure your safety, so on and so forth. Here's
another key point, Hugh. I was very specific with the American Red
Cross, president and CEO Marty Evans, and said wait. Tell me clearly.
Were you prepared to go in before the levees broke? Before water became
an issue of any kind? She said absolutely. Were you denied access
before the levees broke? She said we were denied access from minute
one.
...
MG: Yes. I mean, I think in a word, you have to understand...and Marty
Evans of the American Red Cross said look. The failure from my point of
view is, and I don't want to second-guess people, but look. You have to
have a realistic, executable plan, and then execute the plan for
evacuation. They didn't have it.
====
Ernst Blofeld
Stevie Nichts wrote:
> Perhaps Garrett would be more willing to accept the fact
> if it came directly from the Red Cross:
Hah! I expect that pretty soon we'll be hearing that Blanco was a
Republican mole.
http://thepoliticalteen.com/video/mgarrett2.wmv
For video.
Ernst Blofeld
hob wrote:
> the link is to cabinet AND STAFF departments - and note that that HSE
> department is staffed by members of the US military, who, ever since GW
> removed the NG from state control, report to the commander in chief - not
> the governor.
The national guard, until federalized, answers to the governor. The
guard has
not been federalized.
See, for example,
http://www.newhouse.com/archive/walsh090605.html
====
the biggest chess pieces are the 13,268 National Guard troops from 29
states under the governor's command _ with another 7,845 on the way _
and the 7,000 active-duty troops who began arriving Monday under
command of the regular Army and the president.
As of Monday, two parallel command structures are in place. Major Gen.
Bennett Landreneau, head of the Louisiana National Guard, has control
of all of the guard forces massed in the state. U.S. Army Lt. Gen.
Russel Honore is in charge of the active-duty forces, including
soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division and the 1st Cavalry.
...
Friday night, the White House moved to take charge of all the troops
massing in Louisiana. At home, Blanco received a memorandum of
understanding from the White House asking her to cede control over the
National Guard. According to her staff, Blanco was asked to sign and
return the document right away. Blanco consulted with her legal
counsel, Terry Ryder, and then refused the request.
``They wanted to take over my National Guard,'' Blanco said in an
interview. ``A governor has to have the final say on what's going to
happen.''
Sept. 6, 2005
====
The chain of command for the LANG ends at the governor. Period. The
governor agrees.
The president agrees. Why you would cling to such a faint reed of hope
escapes
me.
I am disapointed that so many public school graduates are ignorant of
the basics
of federalism.
Martin McPhillips
Very reminiscent of when Garrett was in the
dentist's chair for a few days as he was
shown the evidence that ANSWER was a front
group for the Stalinist Workers World Party.
I'd be curious what Erb's reaction would
be if you could get this information in
front of his nose. My money is on you
being quickly dismissed as "Goebbels-like",
again.
1896 Dead
<vega...@att.net> wrote:
Still no such thing as ""The Louisiana Department of Homeland
Security" Don't you know how to read, chuckles?
Incidently, what is a STATE doing with a "Military Department"?
>
>http://www.loep.state.la.us/
>
>The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness
>(LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
>(LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the
>Louisiana Military Department. In 1976 LHLS & EP via the Louisiana
>government reorganization, was moved to the Department of Public
>Safety (DPS). In 1990 LHLS & EP was transferred again to the Military
>Department. In 2003 the Agency name was changed to the Louisiana
>Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, reflecting the
>additional responsibilities to the State and her citizens.
>
>I'll await your ignorant retort.
>
>-
>Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them.
>But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at
>themselves in the mirror.
>
>-Ann Coulter
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned bitch,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
1896 Dead
That explains what one of the loons was talking about when he
mentioned Louisiana's "Military Department" I couldn't figure out
what a state would be doing with a Military Department. Planning to
secede from the Union, perhaps?
Martin McPhillips
news:Ts5Ue.23497$qY1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
You might have a point, Scott, if you in fact
had even a hint of how disaster response is
organized in the United States. FEMA, for
instance, had both the Red Cross and the
Salvation Army (two private agencies it
works closely with) pre-positioned to
enter New Orleans immediately after the
storm. They were denied entry to New Orleans
by the State of Louisiana emergency management
agency. Why? Well, the excuse was that they
didn't want to encourage people to stay
at the Superdome or the Convention Center.
In another direction, perhaps you know
that the national guard was and still
is under the command of the governor
of Louisiana.
FEMA is an umbrella federal agency that
provides massive back-up and support for
state and local governments in disasters,
and it *depends* on coherent lines of
authority from the local and state
officials. More importantly, the state
and local governments are the first
responders, and it is their responsibility
to establish order, provide immediate
relief, etc. for the first 72 hours after
a disaster.
Turning the Red Cross away from New Orleans
after the storm passed qualifies as criminal
negligence, Scott. All that food, water,
emergency care, etc., held outside the city,
why? Had the city and state officials already
entered into such a state of denial that they
didn't want the Red Cross to even see the
situation they had created in the Superdome?
It wasn't George Bush's fault, Scott.
Stevie Nichts
> Exactly. Nothing prevented FEMA, the DHS and especially the President from
> taking an active leadership role
What exactly do you fail to comprehend about the chain of command,
Mr. Erb? (And Garrett Johnson, and William Barwell, and so on and
so on.) The chain of command begins with the state and local
authorities, who must REQUEST aid from the Federal authorities.
President Bush took a "leadership role" by practically begging the
Governor to ASK for his assistance.
Another poster has spelled it out so simply that anyone should be
able to grasp it:
---
You might have a point, Scott, if you in fact had even a hint of
how disaster response is organized in the United States. FEMA, for
instance, had both the Red Cross and the Salvation Army (two
private agencies it works closely with) pre-positioned to enter
New Orleans immediately after the storm. They were denied entry to
New Orleans by the State of Louisiana emergency management agency.
Why? Well, the excuse was that they didn't want to encourage
people to stay at the Superdome or the Convention Center.
In another direction, perhaps you know that the national guard was
and still is under the command of the governor of Louisiana.
FEMA is an umbrella federal agency that provides massive back-up
and support for state and local governments in disasters, and it
*depends* on coherent lines of authority from the local and state
officials. More importantly, the state and local governments are
the first responders, and it is their responsibility to establish
order, provide immediate relief, etc. for the first 72 hours after
a disaster.
Turning the Red Cross away from New Orleans after the storm passed
qualifies as criminal negligence, Scott. All that food, water,
emergency care, etc., held outside the city, why? Had the city and
state officials already entered into such a state of denial that
they didn't want the Red Cross to even see the situation they had
created in the Superdome?
It wasn't George Bush's fault, Scott.
---
To Messrs. Erb, Johnson, and Barwell I pose this question: if the
Governor and the Mayor were Republicans, and people had died
because they had prevented the Red Cross from supplying them with
the necessities of life, would you and your fellow leftists be
defending them so fiercely?
If that were the case, I would be among the first to condemn
them. This issue should be above such petty "gotcha"
considerations. Unfortunately, you lot will go to any
length to 'get' Bush.
VRWC Destruction Machine
Did the line " formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
(LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the
Louisiana Military Department." confuse the shit out of you,
Zepperhead? Gawrsh darn, Zepperhead, they even have a location with a
sign that says "State Emergency Operations Center and Communications
Center---Louisiana Millinery Department--Office of Homeland Security &
Emergency Preparedness." I know, Zepperhead, you are more comfortable
with pictures instead of letters.
http://www.loep.state.la.us/agencyrelated/aboutagency.htm
>
>Incidently, what is a STATE doing with a "Military Department"?
It is their guard, Louisiana National Guard Office of the Adjutant
General. Since LHLS & EP was placed under the Military Department in
1990, the Agency has managed over 16 Federal Disaster Declarations and
has coordinated several hundred State Disaster Declarations authorized
under the Governor's signature. Over the years, the mission has
evolved to include the spectrum of natural, man-made disasters and as
of 2003; the duties and responsibilities for supporting Louisiana's
Homeland Security needs.
Better book that trip to Oz, Zepperhead. Tell them it's an emergency.
Now, you can go back to your "First Reader."
Stevie Nichts
> Stevie Nichts wrote:
> >
> > http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
> >
> > Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
> >
> > Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local
> > authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we
> > simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
> >
> > The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and
> > continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back
> > people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
> > ---
> > Do you still fail to comprehend, Garrett? Local authorities, and
> > the _state_ Homeland Security Department, requested the Red Cross
> > not return.
> >
> Half right. It doesn't say local authorities requested Red Cross not
> to enter New Orleans. Please read slower next time.
Your nit-pick serves as a welcome concession of the point that state
and local authorities are in charge, as the law provides,
and that not everything is Bush's fault.
> The other part you are correct about - state Homeland Security
> (using FEMA to do that) kept the Red Cross out. What you don't
> understand is that state Homeland Security answers to FEDERAL Homeland
> Security.
And what is your cite for this assertion? Here is mine:
---
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/agencyrelated/aboutagency.htm
The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness (LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of
Emergency Preparedness (LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of
1950 and is under the Louisiana Military Department.
---
Now that you know the truth, are you prepared to demonstrate the
same outrage as you did when you thought the Mayor was a
Republican? Where is your indignation?
> > Is there any doubt that if those local authorities did not happen
> > to be Democrats, but were instead Republicans, he would be calling
> > for their heads?
>
> Sounds like projection to me.
You initially _did_ believe they were Republicans, and your
outrage was terrible to behold. Sounds like you've conceded the
point to me.
> BTW, are any of you guys aware that the mayor of New Orleans was a
> Republican until the last election?
Irrelevant, if true. As prior retorts to you show, I assign blame
to guilty parties regardless of ideology. I will thank you for not
pretending otherwise.
Stevie Nichts
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> > Midtowng was outraged--outraged!--by the story, and felt compelled
> > to denounce those responsible,
>
> How dare I be outraged by the simple fact of letting tens of thousands
> suffer and/or die? What kind of values does that show me to have?
You have shown outrage only at President Bush -- and at Mayor Nagin,
but
only when you believed he is a Republican. Your words define you.
> Of course the fact that the state Homeland Security answers to the
> FEDERAL Homeland Security,
No, it does not. You have been provided with cites which
demonstrate that it is a state-level agency and is not under the
aegis of the Federal agency of the same name.
> > he's gone curiously silent.
>
> Oh, yes. I was away from usenet for a day and that means I must have
> nothing to say. If I don't respond to your pissing contest, then you
> must have won, right Don?
>
> > Apparently the event is not outrage-worthy anymore.
>
> Got any more straw for those strawmen, Don?
> It couldn't be that someone like you, who only cares about your
> political agenda can't even imagine someone who actually cares about
> people, could it Don?
You could demonstrate your empathy by joining with those who are
calling for an investigation of the entire process to see where it
failed, starting with the first responders: local and state
authorities. Surely that is not so much to ask.
[insults have been removed]
Ernst Blofeld
1896 Dead wrote:
> >> > In other words, the state Homeland Security reports to the TOP, not
> >> > to the governor.
> >>
> >> Wrong. Louisiana Homeland Security is a state agency that happens to
> >> share the name "Homeland Security" with the federal agency. Like
> >> Zepp, who earlier claimed that it didn't exist, you're just making
> >> stuff
> >> up.
> >NG, now report ONLY to the Commander in Chief.
> >
> >it is a laison position, not one that takes orders from the governor.
>
> That explains what one of the loons was talking about when he
> mentioned Louisiana's "Military Department" I couldn't figure out
> what a state would be doing with a Military Department. Planning to
> secede from the Union, perhaps?
That's false from start to finish.
====
As of Monday, two parallel command structures are in place. Major Gen.
Bennett Landreneau, head of the Louisiana National Guard, has control
of all of the guard forces massed in the state. U.S. Army Lt. Gen.
Russel Honore is in charge of the active-duty forces, including
soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division and the 1st Cavalry.
...
Friday night, the White House moved to take charge of all the troops
massing in Louisiana. At home, Blanco received a memorandum of
understanding from the White House asking her to cede control over the
National Guard. According to her staff, Blanco was asked to sign and
return the document right away. Blanco consulted with her legal
counsel, Terry Ryder, and then refused the request.
``They wanted to take over my National Guard,'' Blanco said in an
interview. ``A governor has to have the final say on what's going to
happen.''
Sept. 6, 2005
====
The governor is at the top of the chain of command for the NG
until they are nationalized. That has not happened. The NG at
the superdome reported, ultimately, to Democratic State Governor
Blanco.
The governor had "final say" over what happened at the superdome.
Ernst Blofeld
1896 Dead wrote:
> Incidently, what is a STATE doing with a "Military Department"?
The national guard, which answers to the state governor.
1896 Dead
<vega...@att.net> wrote:
Yes, actually, it does. What is a state doing with a "military
department"? Could you explain that to us?
Gawrsh darn, Zepperhead, they even have a location with a
>sign that says "State Emergency Operations Center and Communications
>Center---Louisiana Millinery Department--Office of Homeland Security &
>Emergency Preparedness." I know, Zepperhead, you are more comfortable
>with pictures instead of letters.
>
>http://www.loep.state.la.us/agencyrelated/aboutagency.htm
So what you're saying is that this department is actually a federal
liaison to the state, and answers to Putsch, and not the governor.
Thank you. You can sit down now.
>
>
>>
>>Incidently, what is a STATE doing with a "Military Department"?
>
>It is their guard, Louisiana National Guard Office of the Adjutant
>General. Since LHLS & EP was placed under the Military Department in
>1990, the Agency has managed over 16 Federal Disaster Declarations and
>has coordinated several hundred State Disaster Declarations authorized
>under the Governor's signature. Over the years, the mission has
>evolved to include the spectrum of natural, man-made disasters and as
>of 2003; the duties and responsibilities for supporting Louisiana's
>Homeland Security needs.
>
>Better book that trip to Oz, Zepperhead. Tell them it's an emergency.
>
>
>Now, you can go back to your "First Reader."
>
>-
>Democrats couldn't care less if people in Indiana hate them.
>But if Europeans curl their lips, liberals can't look at
>themselves in the mirror.
>
>-Ann Coulter
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned bitch,' Bush screamed at aides
Martin McPhillips
message news:8ra3i157j5beasj4v...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:11:28 GMT, VRWC Destruction Machine
> <vega...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Did the line " formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency
>>Preparedness
>>(LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under
>>the
>>Louisiana Military Department." confuse the shit out of
>>you,
>>Zepperhead?
>
> Yes, actually, it does. What is a state doing with a
> "military
> department"? Could you explain that to us?
Ah, that's what they call the department in
the state under which the national guard is
organized.
> Gawrsh darn, Zepperhead, they even have a location with a
>>sign that says "State Emergency Operations Center and
>>Communications
>>Center---Louisiana Millinery Department--Office of
>>Homeland Security &
>>Emergency Preparedness." I know, Zepperhead, you are more
>>comfortable
>>with pictures instead of letters.
>>
>>http://www.loep.state.la.us/agencyrelated/aboutagency.htm
>
> So what you're saying is that this department is actually
> a federal
> liaison to the state, and answers to Putsch, and not the
> governor.
No, that's not what anyone is saying, including
the State of Louisiana or the Feds. It's a state
agency, all the way.
> Thank you. You can sit down now.
Best that you find yourself a seat, T'loosa.
Ernst Blofeld
1896 Dead wrote:
> >Did the line " formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness
> >(LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the
> >Louisiana Military Department." confuse the shit out of you,
> >Zepperhead?
>
> Yes, actually, it does. What is a state doing with a "military
> department"? Could you explain that to us?
Every single state of the union has one or its equivalent. It's
what the National Guard lives under. The National Guard
answers to the state governor unless and until federalized,
and this has not happened. Blanco has refused to place the
Louisiana NG under the federal chain of command. It answers
directly to her.
> So what you're saying is that this department is actually a federal
> liaison to the state, and answers to Putsch, and not the governor.
No, you fucking moron, it is not a liason to the state.
Jesus fucking Christ. You'd think that anyone with the wits
to boot up a computer would have had a basic class in
American government, or at least have the humility to
not expound on subjects that they are profoundly ignorant
of.
Martin McPhillips
"He is an intelligent, principled poster." --Scott Erb,
vouching for the integrity of Bryan Zepp Greywolf
Jamieson, while making a profound statement about
his own integrity.
Ernst Blofeld
1896 Dead wrote:
> Yes, actually, it does. What is a state doing with a "military
> department"? Could you explain that to us?
To seize control of the mission, Mr. Bush would have had to invoke the
Insurrection Act, which allows the president in times of unrest to
command active-duty forces into the states to perform law enforcement
duties. But decision makers in Washington felt certain that Ms. Blanco
would have resisted surrendering control, as Bush administration
officials believe would have been required to deploy active-duty combat
forces before law and order had been re-established.
While combat troops can conduct relief missions without the legal
authority of the Insurrection Act, Pentagon and military officials say
that no active-duty forces could have been sent into the chaos of New
Orleans on Wednesday or Thursday without confronting law-and-order
challenges.
But just as important to the administration were worries about the
message that would have been sent by a president ousting a Southern
governor of another party from command of her National Guard, according
to administration, Pentagon and Justice Department officials.
"Can you imagine how it would have been perceived if a president of the
United States of one party had pre-emptively taken from the female
governor of another party the command and control of her forces, unless
the security situation made it completely clear that she was unable to
effectively execute her command authority and that lawlessness was the
inevitable result?" asked one senior administration official, who spoke
anonymously because the talks were confidential.
Officials in Louisiana agree that the governor would not have given up
control over National Guard troops in her state as would have been
required to send large numbers of active-duty soldiers into the area.
...
Aides to Ms. Blanco said she was prepared to accept the deployment of
active-duty military officials in her state. But she and other state
officials balked at giving up control of the Guard as Justice
Department officials said would have been required by the Insurrection
Act if those combat troops were to be sent in before order was
restored.
In a separate discussion last weekend, the governor also rejected a
more modest proposal for a hybrid command structure in which both the
Guard and active-duty troops would be under the command of an
active-duty, three-star general - but only after he had been sworn into
the Louisiana National Guard.
====
The Military Department of Louisiana answers directly to the Governor
of Louisiana.
The National Guaradsmen at the Superdome answered to the Governor of
Louisiana,
not the president.
r_c_...@hushmail.com
Use Google to look up "state military department". It looks like most
states have such a department. For example:
http://emd.wa.gov/
http://www.ct.gov/mil/site/default.asp
http://www.mil.state.or.us/
http://www.state.tn.us/military/
There are others, of course. If you are interested, you could check
these (and other) sites out to find out exactly why state have military
departments.
chris.holt
> chris.holt wrote:
>>What mechanism of outside pressure are you thinking of
>>that wouldn't itself be subject to corruption?
> Widespread national publicity would probably work quite
> nicely.
I don't think the record of the past 25 years really
supports that. I'm in favour of open government, mind
you; but the press has been getting more and more
corrupt (often for cost reasons); and government has
been becoming a lot more secretive over the past five
years. [When do we get to see Reagan's papers?]
So that *can* happen, but it's still being subverted.
--
chris.holt
> Classic. Back when Dan Rather was pushing phony documents on 60
> minutes, you said it wasn't "logical" for them to be fakes. This seems
> to be your fallback when confronted with inconvienient facts.
Hmm. Those were the possibly phony documents where everyone
who knew anything about it said that the contents were
essentially accurate?
--
Martin McPhillips
news:dfsmu0$tbf$2...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk...
> Ernst Blofeld wrote:
>
>> Classic. Back when Dan Rather was pushing phony documents
>> on 60
>> minutes, you said it wasn't "logical" for them to be
>> fakes. This seems
>> to be your fallback when confronted with inconvienient
>> facts.
>
> Hmm. Those were the possibly phony documents where
> everyone
> who knew anything about it said that the contents were
> essentially accurate?
*That's* what you took away from that whole episode?
What an incredible dope you are.
chris.holt
> gjoh...@eudoramail.com wrote:
>>>Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the chain of command
>>>above the state HSD? Does it head towards the governor or
>>>towards the Feds?
>> It heads towards the Feds.
> Is that why it is listed as a cabinet post at the Democratic governor
> Blanco's home page?
>
> http://gov.louisiana.gov/cab_members.asp
>
> Which lists the "Office of Homeland Security and Emergency
> Preparedness" as
> one of the cabinet positions in the governor's office.
Just to try to calm this down a bit, the two are not
inconsistent. Remember, I observed that apparently
some of the delay was because people were trying to
figure all this out (rather than get real things done).
--