"Free Elian!"
Billy Beck
"If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
when they turn 7."
http://www.gopbi.com/travel/local/cuba.html
~~~~~~~~~~
VRWC Fronteer
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
Andrew Northbrook
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>when they turn 7."
You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise" Cuba
imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro were an
American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the collectivists would
burn him in effigy.
--
think about it,
Andrew Northbrook
If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to disarm the
rest of us. Don't be a nitwit.
skull...@my-deja.com
"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> >when they turn 7."
> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro
> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
standpoint, that makes good sense. It's very funny to see Billy so
worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt supports
the U.S. economic boycott of that country, which has drastically reduced
the availability of medicine for those children.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Scott D. Erb
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >
> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> >when they turn 7."
>
> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>
> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise" Cuba
> imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro were an
> American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the collectivists would
> burn him in effigy.
Well, I think conservatives who bring up the authoritarian nature of Castro's
regime and the material advantages of living in the US are a bit hypocritical
when they demand children and citizens from other third world countries, most of
them authoritarian, be kicked out of the US or have the borders closed to them.
Still, this is a rather silly case. I end up having to look at international
law and American legal precedents, and its clear that there is really no choice
but to send him back. But then again, as the superpower the US routinely
ignores international and domestic laws when the leaders think its in their
political interest, so who know? I just know this story is getting as boring
and irritating as the Jon Bennet Ramsey story...
Andrew Northbrook
>It's very funny to see Billy so
>worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt supports
>the U.S. economic boycott of that country
I could be wrong, but, based on what little I know of Billy's beliefs, I
greatly doubt he supports the boycott. In fact, I'd be stunned to find out
that government-hating, pro-capitalism Billy Beck would support any kind of
economic ban on any country.
Billy Beck
skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
> "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>
>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>> >when they turn 7."
>
>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>
>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro
>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>
>Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>standpoint, that makes good sense.
Right on time, Fuller. I never would have figured you for
someone to let people decide that sort of thing for themselves.
Definitely have to have a government lookin' out for them over this
sort of thing. Definitely a government.
>It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's children,
>when he no doubt supports the U.S. economic boycott of that country,...
Oh. That must be the one mandated by the feds.
>... which has drastically reduced the availability of medicine for those children.
Uh-huh. As if the mail between here and there would be just
jammed to overflowing with checks buying medicines if only the federal
governmnet (oops!) would permit it. Oh, waitaminnit... that can't be
right... that's because we're talking about people who can't afford a
handful of vegetables... so... It's gotta be that someone would have
to *give* 'em medicines for nothing, and of course, Commissar Bob
knows exactly what needs to be done.
http://www.gopbi.com/travel/local/cuba.html
Why don't you go read about?
Billy
VRWC Fronteer
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
Billy Beck
"Scott D. Erb" <scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>I just know this story is getting as boring
>and irritating as the Jon Bennet Ramsey story...
Good deal, Scotti.
We can then count on you to shut the fuck up.
Wilson
>In article <8cfo0h$flm$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>
>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>> >when they turn 7."
>
>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>
>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro
>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>
>Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt supports
>the availability of medicine for those children.
Gee, wouldn't communism be great, if only we could stop the U.S. from
screwing things up.
Castro wanted to import Soviet ICBMs to aim at Chicago and New York,
but the bad old U.S. interfered.
To watch those Socialist Dem. Representatives on TV in the last few
days dance around the question of Cuba's repression of human rights
was shocking. "I don't know that" said Maxine Waters. "They have a
different system than ours, allowed Charlie Rangle.
rose...@idt.net
>
>"Scott D. Erb" <scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>
>>I just know this story is getting as boring
>>and irritating as the Jon Bennet Ramsey story...
>
> Good deal, Scotti.
>
> We can then count on you to shut the fuck up.
But we can count on you NOT to
Whattya gonna do beckscum, shoot him?
=============================================================
Beck, the loon coward he is, writes how to deal with Clinton:
>Buy yourself a quality pistol. (I recommend the Beretta 92F, but
>that's just me. Aesthetic considerations have been admirably served
>in my own case with the FS - stainless steel - and custom black walnut
>grips, but all that is your lookout.) Get yourself qualified to
>handle it. Make damned sure you know what you're doing. Once that's
>done, get yourself a bunch of dry-fire rounds in your caliber.
>They're usually available at any quality gun shop in bubble-packs of
>five for less than about fifteen dollars. (The ones I use are
>transparent red plastic, with the pad spring visible above the brass,
>inside.) Keeping one in the chamber at all times, never watch the
>TEEVEE without your dry-fire pistol near at hand. Whenever The Lying
>Bastard appears, exploit the opportunity and your visceral reaction
>for purposes of target acquisition training and full-grip squeeze
>conditioning.
rose...@idt.net
>
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>when they turn 7."
Kinda like turning you off when we found out you were under 5
Herb Gorman
Billy Beck wrote:
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> when they turn 7."
Send him home where he belongs... sheesh, but you Yanks are reaching, if
that's the best excuse you can dream up.
--
Anonymity is as close as your mouse: http://members.home.net/gormanh -
While you're at it, make some bloody money while you surf, via
http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=KYG-837 - yes, it *DOES* work!
Herb Gorman
> It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's
> children, when he no doubt supports
> the U.S. economic boycott of that country, which has drastically reduced
> the availability of medicine for those children.
Only Americans would support a boycott of Cuba while lining up by the score
to do business with China, North Vietnam and North Korea. Hypocrits.
johnz`
>In article <8cfo0h$flm$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>
>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>> >when they turn 7."
>
>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>
>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro
>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
True socialism, as developed to it's highest form in the old SU, attains
a blissful plateau where state control is total, but actual social
services, like medicine, are vastly *inferior* to the corrupt ol'
capitalist states. Crime, malnutrition, bad medical services were all
quite presentr before Communism collapsed in the SU - the difference is
now you hear about them.
>
>Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>standpoint, that makes good sense.
Most people would prefer to make that decsion for themselves.
>It's very funny to see Billy so
>worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt supports
>the U.S. economic boycott of that country, which has drastically reduced
>the availability of medicine for those children.
Gosh, Bob. Beck doesn't pay taxes. You - I believe - do pay taxes. None
of Beck's money goes to help enforce the boycott. Some of your money
does. Practically speaking, who is doing more to starve the progressive
Cuban masses, hmmm?
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
You know, Bob, many socialists never felt they had to defend Castro in
order to be socialists. At least, a few felt that way.
I think Max Schactman would be very disapproving of you. One wonders if
the ghosts of all the Social Revolutionaries and Bundists murdered by
Marxist-Leninists like Castro would be happy with you.
Your "Pabloite" tendencies are showing again, Bob. Once again, you are
apologizing for a degenerated worker's state. More to the point, why
exactly should we take anything you say about not wanting prisons,
opposing police brutality, etc, when you seem sympathetic to someone who
runs the most efficient police state in Central America, throws AIDs
patients in concentration camps and has mobs go and beat up dissident
writers? And who was, to top it all off, a good personal friend of none
other that Francisco Franco of Spain! (Both of Galician background,
among other things in common.)
In fact you keep saying the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist! Well,
Cuba is a Marxist-Leninist state, a state with which the old SU never
had any real objection to, (and, in fact, kept afloat by huge subsidies
and buying all their sugar crop, whether the poor bastards in Kiev or
Minsk needed sugar or not) but somehow they do seem to be Socialist! Is
it possible that your judgement on who's "really Socialist" is only
revised *after* the particular regime's collapsed and all the horror
stories are too obvious to be ignored?
Gotta be consistent, Bob.
JS
ThomJeff
johnz` wrote:
> In article <8cfq9b$6eu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <8cfo0h$flm$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Billy Beck wrote in message <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >
> >> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> >> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> >> >when they turn 7."
> >
> >> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
> >
> >> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
> >> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro
> >> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
> >> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>
> True socialism, as developed to it's highest form in the old SU, attains
> a blissful plateau where state control is total, but actual social
> services, like medicine, are vastly *inferior* to the corrupt ol'
> capitalist states. Crime, malnutrition, bad medical services were all
> quite presentr before Communism collapsed in the SU - the difference is
> now you hear about them.
To call the Soviet Union a socialist state is like calling our economy
"laissez-faire". Both are sort of right. In a socialist system the "means of
production" are supposed to be owned directly by the "people" or "workers"
who would share in the profits and work. It was considered simply the
intermediate step to communism by Marx.
In fact, in the Soviet Union, ALL of the means of production were controlled
directly by the government (or "state), which is actually more like the
fascist ideal, but without the nationalism and strive toward racial purity
(and a belief in their own nobility) to make it work (if it ever could).
> >Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
> >standpoint, that makes good sense.
>
> Most people would prefer to make that decsion for themselves.
I agree. But I do think we should drop this ridiculous Cuban embargo. If it
weren't for the vociferous Cuban community in Florida, we would have
established relations long ago. Nothing could bring about freedom quicker in
Cuba than free trade with the US.
Thom
Mary E Knadler
Beck) writes:
>
>
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>when they turn 7."
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>VRWC Fronteer
>http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
Right...........Free Elian today. No to Clinton/Reno/Castro
Yes to fredom for all Cubans.
Mary E Knadler
writes:
>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>> >when they turn 7."
>>
>>
>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
Cuba
>> imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro were
an
>> American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the collectivists
would
>> burn him in effigy.
>
Castro's
>regime and the material advantages of living in the US are a bit
hypocritical
>when they demand children and citizens from other third world
countries, most of
>them authoritarian, be kicked out of the US or have the borders closed
to them.
>
>Still, this is a rather silly case. I end up having to look at
international
>law and American legal precedents, and its clear that there is really
no choice
>but to send him back. But then again, as the superpower the US
routinely
>ignores international and domestic laws when the leaders think its in
their
boring
>and irritating as the Jon Bennet Ramsey story...
>
>
We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
This is the same thing.
He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
ThomJeff
> skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's
> > children, when he no doubt supports
> > the U.S. economic boycott of that country, which has drastically reduced
> > the availability of medicine for those children.
>
> Only Americans would support a boycott of Cuba while lining up by the score
> to do business with China, North Vietnam and North Korea. Hypocrits.
I think I agree with your sentiment, but--
There is no more North Vietnam and I think we're boycotting North Korea (just
like Cuba).
Thom
Pete @ DPI
Pete
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mary E Knadler
Beck) writes:
>
>
>skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Billy Beck wrote in message
<38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>
>>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>> >when they turn 7."
>>
>>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>>
>>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist
paradise"
>>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if
Castro
>>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>>
>>standpoint, that makes good sense.
>
>someone to let people decide that sort of thing for themselves.
>Definitely have to have a government lookin' out for them over this
>sort of thing. Definitely a government.
>
children,
>>when he no doubt supports the U.S. economic boycott of that
>
> Oh. That must be the one mandated by the feds.
>
those children.
>
> Uh-huh. As if the mail between here and there would be just
>jammed to overflowing with checks buying medicines if only the federal
>governmnet (oops!) would permit it. Oh, waitaminnit... that can't be
>right... that's because we're talking about people who can't afford a
>handful of vegetables... so... It's gotta be that someone would have
>to *give* 'em medicines for nothing, and of course, Commissar Bob
>knows exactly what needs to be done.
>
> http://www.gopbi.com/travel/local/cuba.html
>
> Why don't you go read about?
>
>
yasmin2:
The embargo only applies to the US. They can get get anything they
want from all the other countries, but I imagine it is correct that
they cannot afford very much as their economy is reportedly in
shambles.
But whose fault is that. Not the US....... it is Castro's for not
being willing to change to a free-market economy & also let his
people enjoy the same freedoms so many other countries enjoy.
That is why he does not deserve to get Elian back.. Castro is using
this little boy as a "cause celebrer".
He is a very cruel man. And we should not let him be successful
in doing this.
Mary E Knadler
(Wilson) writes:
>
>In article <8cfq9b$6eu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skull...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>>In article <8cfo0h$flm$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>>
>>> Billy Beck wrote in message
<38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>
>>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>> >when they turn 7."
>>
>>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>>
>>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist
paradise"
>>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if
Castro
>>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>>
>>Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>>worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt
supports
reduced
>>the availability of medicine for those children.
>
>screwing things up.
>
>Castro wanted to import Soviet ICBMs to aim at Chicago and New York,
>but the bad old U.S. interfered.
>
>To watch those Socialist Dem. Representatives on TV in the last few
>days dance around the question of Cuba's repression of human rights
>was shocking. "I don't know that" said Maxine Waters. "They have a
>different system than ours, allowed Charlie Rangle.
Maxine Water is a real "ditz". Yikes, how did she ever get to be
Rep. I think she ought to go to Cuba instead of Elian......she
thinks it's so great!
John T. Kennedy
>It's very funny to see Billy so
>worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt supports
>the U.S. economic boycott of that country, which has drastically reduced
>the availability of medicine for those children.
Wotta pinhead you are.
-
John Kennedy
The Wild Shall Wild Remain!
http://members.xoom.com/rational1/wild/
Updated 2/13/00
Scott Erb
Mary E Knadler wrote:
> He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40 years.
> We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
> This is the same thing.
Actually, in a case like this, he probably would have been returned to the
parent. Thats part of international law. We certainly send back children
to other authoritarian countries, many with worse conditions than Castro's
Cuba (which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
> He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
> indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
> die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
> dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
relations and let the power of example and interaction show the Cuban
people that there is a better way. Our policies now only strengthen
Castro. And still, Castro's Cuba is better than many other third world
authoritarian regimes. Historically the US has supported thuggery worse
than Castro's. We're sort of hypocritical when it comes to foreign policy
(though really, the anti-Communist card is obsolete, and Castro recognizes
the need for trade relations, hence Cuba's contacts with Canada and Europe
which have helped their economies and shut the US out because of a weird
fettish with Castro who is now entering decade FIVE of his rule).
cheers, scott
Bill Bonde
Scott Erb wrote:
>
> Mary E Knadler wrote:
>
> > He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40 years.
> > We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
> > This is the same thing.
>
> Actually, in a case like this, he probably would have been returned to the
> parent. Thats part of international law. We certainly send back children
> to other authoritarian countries,
>
I seem to remember a 12 year old boy who got to stay and avoided living
in the fUSSR.
> many with worse conditions than Castro's
> Cuba (which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
>
We knew you were a Castro lover, Erb.
> > He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
> > indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
> > die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
> > dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
>
> Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
> relations and let the power of example and interaction show the Cuban
> people that there is a better way.
>
So tell me why Clinton, Mr. Wants-a-Legacy, isn't out there using this
case to get Castro to open up? He could tell the world that the United
States has had it with dead cubans washing up on our shore. And the lose
of this child's mother is the final straw. What are you, Castro, going
to do about this?
> Our policies now only strengthen
> Castro. And still, Castro's Cuba is better than many other third world
> authoritarian regimes. Historically the US has supported thuggery worse
> than Castro's.
>
Don't you remember how Castro used to send his people all over the world
trying to start communist revolutions? He has been a real pest.
> We're sort of hypocritical when it comes to foreign policy
> (though really, the anti-Communist card is obsolete, and Castro recognizes
> the need for trade relations, hence Cuba's contacts with Canada and Europe
> which have helped their economies and shut the US out because of a weird
> fettish with Castro who is now entering decade FIVE of his rule).
>
How do you feel about Pinochet?
Bill Bonde
rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> >I seem to remember a 12 year old boy who got to stay and avoided living
> >in the fUSSR.
>
> Under the SAME set of circumstances?
>
No. In the case of the 12 year old BOTH parents wanted him back in the
USSR and only he wanted to stay.
> Or are we supposed to YOUR word about "remembering" bondscum?
>
Try to be nice, Rosell.
> >We knew you were a Castro lover, Erb.
>
> we knew you were an ignorant right winger, mcbondloon.
>
> >What are you, Castro, going
> >to do about this?
>
> I thought you could "remember" bondscum
>
> Last time Castro "opened up" we got his jails, mental institutions
> etc.
>
> REMEMBER?
>
Of course. That isn't what we want him to do. We want him to make a
permanent change in the restrictions on leaving the country of Cuba. If
anyone in Cuba can find a country that will accept them, Castro should
let them go.
> >Don't you remember how Castro used to send his people all over the world
> >trying to start communist revolutions? He has been a real pest.
>
> Same fucking procedure as the religious reich and same results.
>
Huh?
> >How do you feel about Pinochet?
>
> Scum of the earth
>
Oh, Pinochet is so bad but Castro is so good. You are obviously crying
as the last bits of your beloved communism fail.
> And know what?
>
> Yer drooling buddy would have supported HIM TOO, if he said he
> was "anticommunist"
>
You mean if Castro had said that he wanted to be friends with the United
States in the Cold War, we would've supported him? Of course we would.
During the Cold War. But after the Cold War, you'll notice how many
right-wing dictators are leaving power. Let's see the same for Castro.
> Your fucking self serving turnip would have supported Tim McVeigh if
> he thought he'd blow up commie men, women and children.
>
Nonsense. I think whoever blew up those apartments in Russia is vile and
disgusting. Exactly like McVeigh.
Bill Bonde
Mary E Knadler wrote:
>
> yasmin2:'
> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>
OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
aisle for different types of pet foods.
Bill Bonde
rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> >Try to be nice, Rosell.
>
> "being nice" to right wing loons is NOT on my immediate agenda
>
> >Oh, Pinochet is so bad but Castro is so good. You are obviously crying
> >as the last bits of your beloved communism fail.
>
> How is thinking castro good, an issue?
>
Oh, I forgot, it's beyond questioning for you.
> The "rule of law" in Elians case is a question of adhering
> tto OUR rule of law, NOT Castros.
>
We have no rule of law that says that Elian must go make no exceptions.
I've pointed out the 12 year old who wanted to stay even though BOTH of
his parents wanted him back in the fUSSR.
> You right wingers have this ignorant view that "principles" can be
> warped and manipulated to affect an OUTCOME acceptable to
> your loony views.
>
This isn't a right-wing, left-wing issue. Steve Largent from OK and a
Republican says we should send Elian back to Cuba. Gore says he should
stay (actually Gore keeps changing his views on this testing the
political winds) There was another democrat though who thought that it
was wrong to send Elian back because in Cuba the kids really are the
property of the state.
> And that, you feckless idiot, is why right winger/conservatives are
> dangerous.
>
I think that Conservatives are far better at standing up for principals
than Liberals. Does Clinton really believe anything specific or does it
just change as the winds blow?
Joseph R. Darancette
wrote:
>
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>when they turn 7."
>
It would be good for him. I understand that milk causes prostrate
cancer.
:-}
Joseph R. Darancette
dar...@uia.net
Mary E Knadler
writes:
>
>
>johnz` wrote:
>
>> In article <8cfq9b$6eu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skull...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>>
>> >In article <8cfo0h$flm$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>> > "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Billy Beck wrote in message
<38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>> >
>> >> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its
children
>> >> >when they turn 7."
>> >
>> >
>> >> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist
paradise"
>> >> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if
Castro
>> >> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>> >> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>>
attains
>> a blissful plateau where state control is total, but actual social
>> services, like medicine, are vastly *inferior* to the corrupt ol'
>> capitalist states. Crime, malnutrition, bad medical services were
all
>> quite presentr before Communism collapsed in the SU - the difference
is
>> now you hear about them.
>
>To call the Soviet Union a socialist state is like calling our economy
>"laissez-faire". Both are sort of right. In a socialist system the
"means of
>production" are supposed to be owned directly by the "people" or
"workers"
>who would share in the profits and work. It was considered simply the
>intermediate step to communism by Marx.
>
>In fact, in the Soviet Union, ALL of the means of production were
controlled
>directly by the government (or "state), which is actually more like
the
>fascist ideal, but without the nationalism and strive toward racial
purity
>(and a belief in their own nobility) to make it work (if it ever
could).
>
>> >standpoint, that makes good sense.
>>
>
>I agree. But I do think we should drop this ridiculous Cuban embargo.
If it
>weren't for the vociferous Cuban community in Florida, we would have
>established relations long ago. Nothing could bring about freedom
quicker in
>Cuba than free trade with the US.
>
>Thom
>
So I guess you must be for lifting the sanctions on Iraq. We have
them on that country to overthrow Saddam. And I guess you must have
approved of them for South Africa.
Castro is on his last legs why should we throw him a life-line until
he frees his people. Then people like Elian's Mother could have just
gotton on a plane & flew to Miami to make a new life. She would be
alive & well & able to be with her child.
Why do you still try to "romanticize" Marxism.......it does not work.
Are tou still believing what those Profs told you or are you still
in school.
Forget them...... they do not know the real world. They still cannot
accept the fact that the SU flopped big time.
Clell A. Harmon
wrote:
>He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40 years.
>We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
>This is the same thing.
>
>He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
>indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
>die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
>dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
And who are you to decide what the 'little boy' does or does
not need, you Nazi bitch?
>
rose...@idt.net
>I seem to remember a 12 year old boy who got to stay and avoided living
>in the fUSSR.
Under the SAME set of circumstances?
Or are we supposed to YOUR word about "remembering" bondscum?
>We knew you were a Castro lover, Erb.
we knew you were an ignorant right winger, mcbondloon.
>What are you, Castro, going
>to do about this?
I thought you could "remember" bondscum
Last time Castro "opened up" we got his jails, mental institutions
etc.
REMEMBER?
>Don't you remember how Castro used to send his people all over the world
>trying to start communist revolutions? He has been a real pest.
Same fucking procedure as the religious reich and same results.
>How do you feel about Pinochet?
Scum of the earth
And know what?
Yer drooling buddy would have supported HIM TOO, if he said he
was "anticommunist"
Your fucking self serving turnip would have supported Tim McVeigh if
he thought he'd blow up commie men, women and children.
The Reagan Years: How Soon We Forget Real Corruption
Gleeful charges by Republicans that Whitewater is comparable to
Watergate and that the Clinton Administration is more corrupt than any
recent administration are ludicrous when compared to the actual record
of corruption in the Reagan-Bush administration and when it is noted
that the charges against Clinton result from goings-on in Arkansas
long before he became President.
With Reagan, scandals occured while he was President.
Pulitzer-prize winning journalist Haynes Johnson's book,
"Sleep-Walking Through History: America in the Reagan Years" (1991,
Doubleday), chronicles the U.S.'s fall from dominant world power to
struggling debtor nation during the Reagan years.
Johnson says "two types of problems typified the ethical misconduct
cases of the Reagan years, and both had heavy consequences to citizens
everywhere.
One stemmed from ideology and deregulatory impulses run amok; the
other, from classic corruption on a grand scale."
"By the end of his term, 138 administration officials had been
convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official
investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In
terms of number of officials involved, the record of his
administration was the worst ever." (P. 184).
"Reagan's customary response to instances of wrongdoing by aides was
to criticize those who brought the charges or to blame the media that
reported them."
"Three great scandals stained the Reagan record, and they all involved
the age-old form of corruption formed by the connection between money
and politics.
What distinguished them in the Reagan years was the number of buyers
and sellers involved, and the amount of money there was to be made.
The sheer volume of both had multiplied beyond any previous measure.
Nothing better illustrated the problem than a case that connected some
of Reagan's closest associates, a score of top government officials in
several departments and agencies, and the kind of political corruption
that extended byack to the Washington of Grant and Harding:
influence peddling, government contracts, cash, bribes, kickbacks,
fraud and conspiracy.
Before it was ended, it had dragged Atty Gen. Meese, advisor Lyn
Nofziger, and many others into the net; led to indictments, trials,
and convictions; and besmirched the reputation of the Reagan
administration.
It became known, popularly, as the Wedtech case."
* Lyn Nofziger--convicted on charges of illegal lobbying of White
House in Wedtech scandal.
* Michael Deaver received three years' probation and was fined one
hundred thousand dollars after being convicted for lying to a
congressional subcomittee and a federal grand jury about his lobbying
activities after leaving the White House.
* E. Bob Wallach, close friend and law classmate of Atty General Edwin
Meese, was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $250,000 in
connection with the Wedtech influence-peddling scandal.
Then there was:
-- the Pentagon procurement scandal, which resulted from the
Republicans' enormous infusion of money too quickly into the Defense
Department after the lean Carter years.
-- Massive fraud and mismanagement in the Department of Housing and
Urban Development throughout Reagan's eight years. These were finally
documented in congressional hearings in spring 1989, after Reagan left
office. Cost the taxpayers billions of dollars in losses. What made
this scandal most shameful was that Reagans' friends and fixers
profited at the expense of the poor, the very people HUD and the
federal government were pledged to assist through low-income housing.
-- the Iran-Contra scandal. In June, 1984, at a National Security
Council meeting, CIA Director Casey urged President Reagan to seek
third-party aid for the Nicaraguan contras. Secretary of State Schultz
warned that it would be an "impeachable offense" if the U.S.
archi...@my-deja.com
> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> >when they turn 7."
> >
> >
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >VRWC Fronteer
> >http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
>
> Right...........Free Elian today. No to Clinton/Reno/Castro
>
> Yes to fredom for all Cubans.
Agreed. Now if only AllGore could decide exactly what his position on
this is.
Mary E Knadler
>
>
>
>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>
>> He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40
years.
>> We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
>> This is the same thing.
>
>Actually, in a case like this, he probably would have been returned to
the
>parent. Thats part of international law. We certainly send back
children
>to other authoritarian countries, many with worse conditions than
Castro's
>Cuba (which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
>
>> He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
>> indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
>> die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
>> dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
>
>Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
>relations and let the power of example and interaction show the Cuban
>people that there is a better way. Our policies now only strengthen
>Castro. And still, Castro's Cuba is better than many other third
world
>authoritarian regimes. Historically the US has supported thuggery
worse
>than Castro's. We're sort of hypocritical when it comes to foreign
policy
>(though really, the anti-Communist card is obsolete, and Castro
recognizes
>the need for trade relations, hence Cuba's contacts with Canada and
Europe
>which have helped their economies and shut the US out because of a
weird
>fettish with Castro who is now entering decade FIVE of his rule).
>cheers, scott
>
>
yasmin2:'
He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
Castro is a miserable old tyrant that wants his way & Clinton has
no back bone at all. I guess some people never saw a Marxist
Dictator they didn't like. Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine &
her pals would be screaming al over the place.
I think it is disgusting to do that to that sweet little boy.
If I were involved I would take him as far away from Castro as
I could by whatever means I could. It is too bad Americans are
so oblivious to what it really is like for the Cuban people.
I feel really sorry for this heartbreaking event & I know it will
end with him returning to Cuba & Clinton & Reno will again smile
at how successful they are. They will be so proud
Yuck to them.
rose...@idt.net
>Try to be nice, Rosell.
"being nice" to right wing loons is NOT on my immediate agenda
>Oh, Pinochet is so bad but Castro is so good. You are obviously crying
>as the last bits of your beloved communism fail.
How is thinking castro good, an issue?
The "rule of law" in Elians case is a question of adhering
tto OUR rule of law, NOT Castros.
You right wingers have this ignorant view that "principles" can be
warped and manipulated to affect an OUTCOME acceptable to
your loony views.
And that, you feckless idiot, is why right winger/conservatives are
dangerous.
>
>
>> And know what?
>>
>> Yer drooling buddy would have supported HIM TOO, if he said he
>> was "anticommunist"
>>
>You mean if Castro had said that he wanted to be friends with the United
>States in the Cold War, we would've supported him? Of course we would.
>During the Cold War. But after the Cold War, you'll notice how many
>right-wing dictators are leaving power. Let's see the same for Castro.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Your fucking self serving turnip would have supported Tim McVeigh if
>> he thought he'd blow up commie men, women and children.
>>
jcoal...@my-deja.com
wj...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> when they turn 7."
Yes, and with the U.S. embargo, rationing could go below
age 7.
Given that the tyrant has been in power since 1959, and the
U.S. embargo has been on since 1962, has the embargo shortened the
length of his reign? By how much? Or has it lengthened it?
Has it helped the Cuban people? In what way?
jimC
Andrew Northbrook
>
>He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>by a free society.
Since when have YOU, Ms Pinochet Supporter, ever given a flying rats ass
about oppression & free societies????
>Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine &
>her pals would be screaming al over the place.
If it was Augusto Pinochet's Chile we were talking about, you'd be demanding
the boy be returned as an illegal immigrant. This is just more of your
standard air-headed hypocrisy showing it's ugly, ignorant little head again.
--
think about it,
Andrew Northbrook
If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to disarm the
rest of us. Don't be a nitwit.
Andrew Northbrook
>
>rose...@idt.net wrote:
>>
>> The "rule of law" in Elians case is a question of adhering
>> tto OUR rule of law, NOT Castros.
>>
>I've pointed out the 12 year old who wanted to stay even though BOTH of
>his parents wanted him back in the fUSSR.
Walter Polovchak should have been sent back to the USSR, just as Elian
Gonzales should be deported to Cuba, just like all other illegals should be
deported to their home countries when they're found. It's not the business
of the USA to define the immigration policies of other nations. It's not the
business of 12-year olds to tell their parents where they're going to live,
& that they're going to do it whether their parents like it or not.
>This isn't a right-wing, left-wing issue. Steve Largent from OK and a
>Republican says we should send Elian back to Cuba.
Bully for Largent. I knew there was something about him I liked.
There was a very interesting letter in the San Jose Mercury News this
morning. The author stated that, if it were Mrs Gonzales back in Havana & Mr
Gonzales who had died trying to smuggle little Elian into America, the women
of America would have stopped this nation DEAD to ensure the boy be returned
to his mother. WTF ever happened to the rights of the FATHER?????
mr_antone
wrote:
>In <38EBE578...@maine.edu> Scott Erb <scot...@maine.edu> writes:
>He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>
>Castro is a miserable old tyrant that wants his way & Clinton has
>no back bone at all. I guess some people never saw a Marxist
>Dictator they didn't like. Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine &
>her pals would be screaming al over the place.
>
>I think it is disgusting to do that to that sweet little boy.
>
>If I were involved I would take him as far away from Castro as
>I could by whatever means I could. It is too bad Americans are
>so oblivious to what it really is like for the Cuban people.
In other words Maryloon believes in kidnapping.
How many times have you been to Cuba, Maryloon ?
>I feel really sorry for this heartbreaking event & I know it will
>end with him returning to Cuba & Clinton & Reno will again smile
>at how successful they are. They will be so proud
>
>Yuck to them.
>
>
>
mr_antone
mr_antone
wrote:
>In <38eb737c...@news.mindspring.com> wj...@mindspring.com (Billy
>Beck) writes:
>>
>>
>>skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>> "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Billy Beck wrote in message
><38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>
>>>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>>> >when they turn 7."
>>>
>>>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>>>
>>>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist
>paradise"
>>>> Cuba imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if
>Castro
>>>> were an American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the
>>>> collectivists would burn him in effigy.
>>>
>>>Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>>>standpoint, that makes good sense.
>>
>> Right on time, Fuller. I never would have figured you for
>>someone to let people decide that sort of thing for themselves.
>>Definitely have to have a government lookin' out for them over this
>>sort of thing. Definitely a government.
>>
>>>It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's
>children,
>>>when he no doubt supports the U.S. economic boycott of that
>country,...
>>
>> Oh. That must be the one mandated by the feds.
>>
>>>... which has drastically reduced the availability of medicine for
>those children.
>>
>> Uh-huh. As if the mail between here and there would be just
>>jammed to overflowing with checks buying medicines if only the federal
>>governmnet (oops!) would permit it. Oh, waitaminnit... that can't be
>>right... that's because we're talking about people who can't afford a
>>handful of vegetables... so... It's gotta be that someone would have
>>to *give* 'em medicines for nothing, and of course, Commissar Bob
>>knows exactly what needs to be done.
>>
>> http://www.gopbi.com/travel/local/cuba.html
>>
>> Why don't you go read about?
>>
>>
>>Billy
>>
>>VRWC Fronteer
>>http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
>
>yasmin2:
>
>The embargo only applies to the US. They can get get anything they
>want from all the other countries, but I imagine it is correct that
>they cannot afford very much as their economy is reportedly in
>shambles.
>
>But whose fault is that. Not the US....... it is Castro's for not
>being willing to change to a free-market economy & also let his
>people enjoy the same freedoms so many other countries enjoy.
>
>That is why he does not deserve to get Elian back.. Castro is using
>this little boy as a "cause celebrer".
Keep up the good work, Maryloon.
Encouraging the kidnapping of Eilian from his father is a winning
ticket.
>
>He is a very cruel man. And we should not let him be successful
>in doing this.
Tell us Maryloon, do you lick Limbaugh's boots before you walk in them
?
mr_antone
Zepp
wrote:
>
>
>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>
>> yasmin2:'
>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>
>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>aisle for different types of pet foods.
Most people find that a little horrifying, considering. But a six
year old doesn't have critical faculties much better than a typical
American conservative.
**********************************************************
Yo! Smirk! Where's Canada?
**********************************************************
Not dead, in jail or a slave?
Thank a liberal!
For more of Zepp's Commentary, go to http://www.snowcrest.net/zepp/zeppol.html
Warning: Contains ideas
For all things liberal/leftist http://www.snowcrest.net/zepp/lynx.htm
************************************************************
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
mr_antone
wrote:
>In <38EB6FF7...@maine.edu> "Scott D. Erb" <scot...@maine.edu>
>writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>>
>>> Billy Beck wrote in message
><38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>> >
>>> > "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>> >milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>> >when they turn 7."
>>>
>>> You say that like it's a reason to avoid deporting him.
>>>
>>> Actually, I think it's pretty amusing that even "socialist paradise"
>Cuba
>>> imposes a cut-off point for state assistance. Imagine if Castro were
>an
>>> American "conservative" & proposed such a thing: the collectivists
>would
>>> burn him in effigy.
>>
>>Well, I think conservatives who bring up the authoritarian nature of
>Castro's
>>regime and the material advantages of living in the US are a bit
>hypocritical
>>when they demand children and citizens from other third world
>countries, most of
>>them authoritarian, be kicked out of the US or have the borders closed
>to them.
>>
>>Still, this is a rather silly case. I end up having to look at
>international
>>law and American legal precedents, and its clear that there is really
>no choice
>>but to send him back. But then again, as the superpower the US
>routinely
>>ignores international and domestic laws when the leaders think its in
>their
>>political interest, so who know? I just know this story is getting as
>boring
>>and irritating as the Jon Bennet Ramsey story...
>>
>>
>He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40 years.
>We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
>This is the same thing.
>
>He has a much better future here instead of going back to be
>indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
>die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
>dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
>
How do you know his Father is a die hard communist ?
Did you walk in his shoes ?
Maryloon believes in kidnapping .
mr_antone
Andrew Northbrook
>On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:16:29 -0700, Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>
>>> yasmin2:'
>>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>>
>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>
>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
REALLY??????
Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle devoted
to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
that they have so many choices. Besides, in most grocery stores, it's not
one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one aisle.
>But a six
>year old doesn't have critical faculties
Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
Billy Beck
"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Zepp wrote...
>>Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com> wrote:
>>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>
>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>
>REALLY??????
>
>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle devoted
>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>that they have so many choices.
This is the oily peasant, Zepp, that you're talking about,
Andrew. Try to understand that his idea of "progress", for instance,
consists of a crude line-drawing of a lawn-mower blade benignly
chopping the heads off flowers taller than ordinary grass.
Scott Erb
Mary E Knadler wrote:
> yasmin2:'
> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
Well, oppression is pretty common world wide, and we tend to send children
back in other cases, and we have historically supported regimes even more
repressive than Castro's. I certainly don't condone his governmental style
(or the governments of most of the world, really), but the best route is
not the futile policies of recent years. I think the Canadians and
Europeans are doing it right, and Castro knows that Cuba has to open up.
American trade and a new policy could help make it a stable transition.
After all, Russia shows how a too quick unstable break can lead to more
problems than solutions, at least in the near term.
> Castro is a miserable old tyrant that wants his way & Clinton has
> no back bone at all.
I agree Clinton has no backbone on this, but for a different reason than
you. I think he should tell the Cuban exile community to go to hell and
simply normalize relations with Cuba. The policy we have now strengthens
Castro and is self-defeating.
> I guess some people never saw a Marxist
> Dictator they didn't like. Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine &
> her pals would be screaming al over the place.
Well, if it was a right wing guy with the same tactics, he probably would
have been receiving US support the last forty years ;)
> I think it is disgusting to do that to that sweet little boy.
Yes, keeping him away from his father and having his "family" in Miami bad
mouth his father and use him for political propaganda purposes against
Castro is pretty bad.
> If I were involved I would take him as far away from Castro as
> I could by whatever means I could. It is too bad Americans are
> so oblivious to what it really is like for the Cuban people.
The Cuban people are actually better off than under Battista, and Castro's
regime has considerable domestic support, especially compared to recent
authoritarian regimes that the US supported in Latin America. But I agree
that ultimately Cuba has to transform, and I think returning Elian and
opening relations with Cuba will hasten that transformation, and make it
more stable and successful.
> feel really sorry for this heartbreaking event & I know it will
> end with him returning to Cuba & Clinton & Reno will again smile
> at how successful they are. They will be so proud
>
> Yuck to them.
It's the law. And somehow I still think a boy belongs with his father in
this kind of situation.cheers, scott
Scott Erb
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
> Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
> sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
> as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
> they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading, and I bet
that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why the Cuban
exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite enemy.cheers, scott
Scott Erb
Bill Bonde wrote:
> > many with worse conditions than Castro's
> > Cuba (which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
> >
> We knew you were a Castro lover, Erb.
Actually, no. I think this style of government is wrong and should change.
However, that doesn't deny the fact that for most Cubans Castro was better than
Battista. But geez, that's really not saying much!
> > Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
> > relations and let the power of example and interaction show the Cuban
> > people that there is a better way.
> >
> So tell me why Clinton, Mr. Wants-a-Legacy, isn't out there using this
> case to get Castro to open up?
He's a wimp on Cuba. He doesn't want to piss off Helms and the Cuban exile
community. Its one reason I'm not a Clinton fan. That and Kosovo, Iraq...
> He could tell the world that the United
> States has had it with dead cubans washing up on our shore. And the lose
> of this child's mother is the final straw. What are you, Castro, going
> to do about this?
Castro would say, "Hey, I'm ready to start trade and normalize relations. You
take that step, and we can build a better relationship." Castro, who met with
the Pope not that long ago, realizes Communism "old style" is dead. But he's
not going to simply give in, it'll have to be a step by step transformation,
likely completed in the post-Castro era. It would be better to start it now.
> Don't you remember how Castro used to send his people all over the world
> trying to start communist revolutions? He has been a real pest.
Yes, and the US has supported right wing thuggery around the world. We have
been a real pest. Still, my point stands unrefuted.
> > We're sort of hypocritical when it comes to foreign policy
> > (though really, the anti-Communist card is obsolete, and Castro recognizes
> > the need for trade relations, hence Cuba's contacts with Canada and Europe
> > which have helped their economies and shut the US out because of a weird
> > fettish with Castro who is now entering decade FIVE of his rule).
> >
> How do you feel about Pinochet?
He's certainly no better than Castro.cheers, scott
Andrew Northbrook
+AD4-
+AD4-Andrew Northbrook wrote:
+AD4-
+AD4APg- Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
+AD4APg- Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
+AD4APg- sick of them, +ACY- I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to
them
+AD4APg- as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to +ACI-freedom+ACI- in Cuba,
maybe
+AD4APg- they oughta go back where they came from +ACY- fight for it.
+AD4-
+AD4-Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading
I agree. The fastest way to undermine ANY dictatorship is to give them
American culture +ACY- consumerism. How can you keep them under the thumb, once
they've got their MTV?
+AD4-Maybe thats why the Cuban
+AD4-exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite enemy.
That's +ACo-exactly+ACo- why they don't want to normalize relations. Besides, then
they wouldn't be potent voting block that both parties bend over backwards
to appease.
skull...@my-deja.com
"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >It's very funny to see Billy so
> >worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt
> >supports the U.S. economic boycott of that country
> I could be wrong, but, based on what little I know of Billy's beliefs,
> I greatly doubt he supports the boycott. In fact, I'd be stunned to
> find out that government-hating, pro-capitalism Billy Beck would
> support any kind of economic ban on any country.
> think about it,
I have thought about it, Andrew. Billy, like the other phony
"anarcho-capitalists," is quite fond of corporate government. You'll
notice that he didn't argue against the boycott in his replies.
Wilson
I wonder, if his mother had come to the U.S. for an abortion, before
he was born, would we be hearing so much about "father's rights"?
Just asking.
Billy Beck
skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> >It's very funny to see Billy so
>> >worried about the health of Cuba's children, when he no doubt
>> >supports the U.S. economic boycott of that country
>
>> I could be wrong, but, based on what little I know of Billy's beliefs,
>> I greatly doubt he supports the boycott. In fact, I'd be stunned to
>> find out that government-hating, pro-capitalism Billy Beck would
>> support any kind of economic ban on any country.
>
>> think about it,
>
>I have thought about it, Andrew. Billy, like the other phony
>"anarcho-capitalists," is quite fond of corporate government.
No, Fuller, I'm not, and there is no lie that you could tell that
would make it any different.
>You'll notice that he didn't argue against the boycott in his replies.
It's not that big a deal to me, in the largest context. There
are a lot more pressing matters to settle.
Wilson
>
>
>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
>> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
>> as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
>> they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>
>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading, and I bet
>that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why the Cuban
>
Sounds easy enough, but if a totalitarian government expropriated your
property, your business, brainwashed your kids, and told you what you
could write, you might consider them a "favorite enemy".
That is, if you had balls.
skull...@my-deja.com
> skull...@my-deja.com wrote: > >
> >Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
> >standpoint, that makes good sense.
> Most people would prefer to make that decsion for themselves.
OK, but here in corporate "Free America" we're constantly, unendingly,
bombarded with the question "got milk?" Here in "Free America" you can
get sued for critisizing food. Oprah Winfrey might have enough money to
fight off such a lawsuit, (it cost her millions) but most people don't,
so the underlying message is "keep quiet or get clobbered."
> >It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's
> >children, when he no doubt supports the U.S. economic boycott of that
> >country, which has drastically reduced the availability of medicine
> >for those children.
> Gosh, Bob. Beck doesn't pay taxes. You - I believe - do pay taxes.
> None of Beck's money goes to help enforce the boycott. Some of your
> money does. Practically speaking, who is doing more to starve the
> progressive Cuban masses, hmmm?
Beck thinks all of us serfs should support the Pentagon and pay for a
"missle defence system" to protect his ass. Since he doesn't chip in,
that makes him quite the hypocrit, doesn't it? Our government does lots
of things I don't like. Mostly, I don't like the fact that our
government isn't "our" government anymore. It's become a government run
by corporations.
> You know, Bob, many socialists never felt they had to defend Castro in
> order to be socialists. At least, a few felt that way.
I'm not a socialist, according to "true socialists" that I've talked to.
I've got no problem with private enterprize or private property. But,
when unbridled big money capitalism takes over the function of
government, what have you got? I think Mussolini had a word for it...
> Your "Pabloite" tendencies are showing again, Bob. Once again, you are
> apologizing for a degenerated worker's state.
Where did I "apologize" for anything? It's simply a fact that our
embargo has denied medicine to the children in Cuba.
> More to the point, why
> exactly should we take anything you say about not wanting prisons,
> opposing police brutality, etc, when you seem sympathetic to someone
> who runs the most efficient police state in Central America, throws
> AIDs patients in concentration camps and has mobs go and beat up
> dissident writers? And who was, to top it all off, a good personal
> friend of none other that Francisco Franco of Spain! (Both of
> Galician background, among other things in common.)
My sympathy is with Elian's father, and I apologize (I guess) for not
wanting to see my country become a corporate police state, which is
exactly where we're headed. If Cuba hadn't been screwed over for so long
by U.S. supported dictators like Batista, and those ultimate examples of
"laisseaz-faire" capitalism, the Mafia, Castro wouldn't have had so much
popular support for his revolution, would he? As for "beating up
dissident journalists," are you saying that we have a free press here in
the States? Go talk to Gary Webb.
> In fact you keep saying the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist!
It wasn't. It was basically a dictatorship by a small ruling elite,
which is what's happening here, too. I think an analogy can be drawn
between political philosophies and religion. Religions are founded on
the teaching of a prophet, but as time passes they get so far removed
from what that prophet actually taught as to be unrecognizable.
Modern "Christianity" is a good example, having long ago been twisted
into "churchianity." I suspect that Marx wouldn't have recognized the
U.S.S.R. as being the embodiment of his worker's state ideal, just as I
suspect Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave right now.
> Gotta be consistent, Bob.
I agree 100%.
Andrew Northbrook
& of course, for those who DON'T have balls, there's always Uncle Sugar's
open borders to run to.
After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty little
thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take full
advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else -- presumably,
someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the country you were too
gutless to fight for, so you can go home & wax rhapsodic about your "eternal
struggle".
You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be considered a
hero for doing so.
Wilson
Ah, but you forget, the ones with balls did fight, only to be
slaughtered at the Bay of Pigs, when a gutless Democratic
Administration, decided to cut off the help they had been promised.
>
>You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be considered a
>hero for doing so.
When that child goes back to Uncle Fidel, watch the parade.
Andrew Northbrook
No, I didn't forget that at all. We could quibble over the exact
circumstances & reasons for JFK pulling the plug on the operation, but since
I'm not really up on the history of it, I'll beg off that argument for now.
I was referring specifically to the cockroaches currently infesting Miami.
>>You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be considered a
>>hero for doing so.
>
>When that child goes back to Uncle Fidel, watch the parade.
Is there something worse about his political football playing, then that of
the Cuban Cowards infesting Miami?
zepp, a weasel
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Zepp wrote in message <38ec9129....@news.snowcrest.net>...
>>On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:16:29 -0700, Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yasmin2:'
>>>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>>>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>>>
>>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>
>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>
>REALLY??????
>
>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle devoted
>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>that they have so many choices. Besides, in most grocery stores, it's not
>one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one aisle.
If it doesn't disturb you, why do you feel a need to qualify it by
reducing the volume of pet food in the store?
I wasn't limiting myself to just Americans when I said that. We're
used to the fact that we spend more on pet food than we do on fighting
human starvation.
>
>>But a six
>>year old doesn't have critical faculties
>
>Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
>Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
>sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
>as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
>they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>
No argument there. The cold warriors have been using this group of
disaffiliated losers for propaganda purposes, and now the cold war is
winding down. Suddenly the Batista exiles serve no useful purpose to
the right wing, and people are openly questioning why a group of
people who couldn't manage in their own country should dictate what
America does.
>--
>think about it,
>Andrew Northbrook
>If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to disarm the
>rest of us. Don't be a nitwit.
>
>
>
**********************************************************
"Newt Gingrich showed the country that when he was Speaker
of the House, he was banging more than just his gavel."
-- Mark Russell
For political commentary by Zepp, visit
http://www.snowcrest.net/zepp/zeppol.html
For links to all things Liberal/Leftist, go to
http:/www.snowcrest.net/zepp/lynx.htm
Warning: Contains ideas
zepp, a weasel
wrote:
>In article <38ECA551...@maine.edu>, Scott Erb <scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>>
>>> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
>>> Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
>>> sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
>>> as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
>>> they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>>
>>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading, and I bet
>>that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why the Cuban
>>exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite enemy.cheers, scott
>>
>
>Sounds easy enough, but if a totalitarian government expropriated your
>property, your business, brainwashed your kids, and told you what you
>could write, you might consider them a "favorite enemy".
>
>That is, if you had balls.
We're talking about Cuba, not Oklahoma.
zepp, a weasel
wrote:
>
>"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Zepp wrote...
>
>>>Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>>
>>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>>
>>REALLY??????
>>
>>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle devoted
>>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>>that they have so many choices.
>
> This is the oily peasant, Zepp, that you're talking about,
>Andrew. Try to understand that his idea of "progress", for instance,
>consists of a crude line-drawing of a lawn-mower blade benignly
>chopping the heads off flowers taller than ordinary grass.
Just not getting the quality of meth you used to, eh, billy?
>
>
>Billy
>
>VRWC Fronteer
>http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/promise.html
**********************************************************
Billy Beck
skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>johnz` <jo...@removethis.aa.net> wrote: >
>> >Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>> >standpoint, that makes good sense.
>
>> Most people would prefer to make that decsion for themselves.
>
>OK, but here in corporate "Free America" we're constantly, unendingly,
>bombarded with the question "got milk?"
Uhm, you did know, didn't you, that that particular campaign is
financed by the Department of Agriculture?
>> >It's very funny to see Billy so worried about the health of Cuba's
>> >children, when he no doubt supports the U.S. economic boycott of that
>> >country, which has drastically reduced the availability of medicine
>> >for those children.
>
>> Gosh, Bob. Beck doesn't pay taxes. You - I believe - do pay taxes.
>> None of Beck's money goes to help enforce the boycott. Some of your
>> money does. Practically speaking, who is doing more to starve the
>> progressive Cuban masses, hmmm?
>
>Beck thinks all of us serfs should support the Pentagon and pay for a
>"missle defence system" to protect his ass.
That's a *lie*, Fuller. I mean, you can post it all day long,
but that doesn't make it true.
>I'm not a socialist, according to "true socialists" that I've talked to.
>I've got no problem with private enterprize or private property. But,
>when unbridled big money capitalism takes over the function of
>government, what have you got?
You've got power-pigs selling power to the highest bidders. What
the fuck do you expect?
Here's the question you ought to consider: what if the product at
market (a horrendous mutilation of concepts, but sufficient here)
wasn't available?
>If Cuba hadn't been screwed over for so long
>by U.S. supported dictators like Batista, and those ultimate examples of
>"laisseaz-faire" capitalism, the Mafia,...
That's another lie, so historically pervasive that you can't be
blamed for it except for the small matter of your not thinking your
way through it. Now, this is the part where you'll go running off to
your dictionary in order to fend-off the implications of what I'm
about to say, but that won't matter: "capitalism" is a *moral* concept
that transcends economics. The economics of capitalism are merely
consequential to its moral foundations. The immediate implication is
that "the Mafia" doesn't qualify, and it is a monstrous
misrepresentation for you or anyone else to couch it in those terms.
>...Castro wouldn't have had so much popular support for his revolution,
>would he?
Oh, I see. IOW: Castro's had a good excuse for being a monster.
Andrew Northbrook
>On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:04:31 -0700, "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Zepp wrote in message <38ec9129....@news.snowcrest.net>...
>>>On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:16:29 -0700, Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> yasmin2:'
>>>>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>>>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>>>>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>>>>
>>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>>
>>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>>
>>REALLY??????
>>
>>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle
devoted
>>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>>one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one aisle.
>
>If it doesn't disturb you, why do you feel a need to qualify it by
>reducing the volume of pet food in the store?
That was a correction, not a qualification. The statement was made that an
entire aisle is devoted to pet food; I was pointing out that, in most
grocery stores I've been to, it's considerably less then half of one full
aisle.
>Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
Why pay them at all?
gmac...@hiwaay.net.this
>In article <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>,
> wj...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>
>> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>> when they turn 7."
>
>Yes, and with the U.S. embargo, rationing could go below
>age 7.
>
>Given that the tyrant has been in power since 1959, and the
>U.S. embargo has been on since 1962, has the embargo shortened the
>length of his reign? By how much? Or has it lengthened it?
>
>Has it helped the Cuban people? In what way?
What's stop *Fearless Leader* Fidel from obtaining *ANY* comodities elsewhere.
Just because they can't get them here isn't stopping their ability to go
elsewhere for *anything*.
>jimC
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."
--Robert A. Heinlein
Scott Erb
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>No, I didn't forget that at all. We could quibble over the exact
> circumstances & reasons for JFK pulling the plug on the operation, but since
> I'm not really up on the history of it, I'll beg off that argument for now.
The CIA promised JFK that there would not be any need for US military back up
operations (they had planned the coup after the one that overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatamala and installed a brutal
authoritarian dictatorship). Castro had studied the coup against Arbenz too,
however, and was prepared -- he didn't crack like Arbenz did. The CIA believed
that Kennedy would ultimately order US military back up, but Kennedy never
promised it, and believed CIA claims it would not be necessary.
In any event, it was a foreign policy fiasco, and I think even aiding the bay of
pigs fighters (mostly NOT liberty-minded heros, but old thugs of Battista's
regime) would not have changed much. A good history of this and American policy
in Latin America can be found in Lloyd Etheredge's *Can Governments Learn*,
Princeton University Press.
Scott Erb
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
-snip-
> >those ultimate examples of "laisseaz-faire" capitalism, the Mafia
>
> The only reason the Mob has ever attracted any amount of money or power in
> this country, is that they have traditionally done business in "commodities"
> that people want, but that the government has declared illegal. If those
> particular commodities were not illegal, then the Mob doesn't make money
> from them, capish?
Well, in most countries without stable rule of law something like mafia gangs
manage to take over the economy through the use of force. I think an
anarcho-capitalist type system would probably devolve into that. I still don't
see any alternative to some kind of governmental system, preferrably one where
people can hold government officials accountable and use of power is
transparent. If suddenly government were to disappear, I suspect you'd see
powerful groups of people -- like mafia gangs -- soon instituting a "defacto"
government; indeed, thats how early European states started, sort of like a
protection racket.
> On Whether The Soviet Union Was Socialist:
> >It wasn't. It was basically a dictatorship by a small ruling elite
>
> Which is the basic definition of government, as practiced by human beings.
Traditionally, though I think a kind of democratic government of, by, and for
the people can start to hold use of power accountable. But we're not there
yet...
> >I suspect that Marx wouldn't have recognized the
> >U.S.S.R. as being the embodiment of his worker's state ideal, just as I
> >suspect Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave right now.
>
> Agreed.
Reality rarely follows theory -- something I think anarcho-capitalists often
need to recognize.
cheers, scott
Wilson
>
>
>Wilson wrote:
>
>> Sounds easy enough, but if a totalitarian government expropriated your
>> property, your business, brainwashed your kids, and told you what you
>> could write, you might consider them a "favorite enemy".
>>
>> That is, if you had balls.
>
>Remember: Battista before Castro ran an authoritarian government where most
> Cubans
>were uneducated, did not have health care, and the place was basically mob run.
>Castro's revolution was understandable, even though the system he put in place
> also
>lacks liberty and a real chance of long term success. The issue is not some
> kind
>of weird revenge motive, but simply to get Cuba to open up and start trading
> adn
>improving relations.
>
>Its about doing whats best for the future, not "having balls."
>
>
Maybe for your future. Others draw the line at trading with with their
sworn enemy, except under strict conditions.
This is the man who was installing Soviet ICBMs, to be aimed at "our
children" in New York and Chicago.
History shows that appeasing such tyrants, is good for the future of
some, bad for others.
It's just a matter of opinion.
SemiScholar
wrote:
>
>skull...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>johnz` <jo...@removethis.aa.net> wrote: >
>
>>> >Cow's milk isn't healthy for people anyway, so from a medical
>>> >standpoint, that makes good sense.
>>
>>> Most people would prefer to make that decsion for themselves.
>>
>>OK, but here in corporate "Free America" we're constantly, unendingly,
>>bombarded with the question "got milk?"
>
> Uhm, you did know, didn't you, that that particular campaign is
>financed by the Department of Agriculture?
LOL! You know *nothing*.
Heh, heh...
From www.gotmilk.com:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
How did got milk? come about? Where do those TV commercials,
billboards, and t-shirts come from?
In 1993, milk consumption in California had declined steadily for 20
years, so milk processors from all over the state banded together to
do something about it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
- SemiScholar
SemiScholar
Actually, the US has put pressure on other countries to not trade with
Cuba, with some success for years and years, although I don't know
that it's all that successful anymore.
But to eliminate the USA as a trading partner hardly seems like it
would have little or no effect on a country 90 miles off our shores.
- SemiScholar
SemiScholar
wrote:
>In article <8ciekq$h60$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>Wilson wrote in message ...
>>>In article <38ECA551...@maine.edu>, Scott Erb <scot...@maine.edu>
>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
>>>>> Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
>>>>> sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to
>>them
>>>>> as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba,
>>maybe
>>>>> they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>>>>
>>>>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading, and I
>>bet
>>>>that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why the
>>Cuban
>>>>exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite enemy.cheers,
>>scott
>>>
>>>Sounds easy enough, but if a totalitarian government expropriated your
>>>property, your business, brainwashed your kids, and told you what you
>>>could write, you might consider them a "favorite enemy".
>>>
>>>That is, if you had balls.
>>
>>& of course, for those who DON'T have balls, there's always Uncle Sugar's
>>open borders to run to.
>>
>>After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty little
>>thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take full
>>advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else -- presumably,
>>someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the country you were too
>>gutless to fight for, so you can go home & wax rhapsodic about your "eternal
>>struggle".
>
>Ah, but you forget, the ones with balls did fight, only to be
>slaughtered at the Bay of Pigs, when a gutless Democratic
>Administration, decided to cut off the help they had been promised.
They had been made promises by Nixon and Eisenhower that they really
had no business making. And Kennedy was not required to support the
illegal operation anyway.
>>
>>You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be considered a
>>hero for doing so.
>
>When that child goes back to Uncle Fidel, watch the parade.
- SemiScholar
Andrew Northbrook
+AD4-
+AD4-Andrew Northbrook wrote:
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4APg- +AD4-those ultimate examples of +ACI-laisseaz-faire+ACI- capitalism, the Mafia
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- The only reason the Mob has ever attracted any amount of money or power
in
+AD4APg- this country, is that they have traditionally done business in
+ACI-commodities+ACI-
+AD4APg- that people want, but that the government has declared illegal. If those
+AD4APg- particular commodities were not illegal, then the Mob doesn't make money
+AD4APg- from them, capish?
+AD4-
+AD4-Well, in most countries without stable rule of law something like mafia
gangs
+AD4-manage to take over the economy through the use of force. I think an
+AD4-anarcho-capitalist type system would probably devolve into that.
This country could be said to have a pretty stable +ACI-rule of law+ACI-, +ACY- yet the
Mafia garnered a great deal of power in the American economy. Pretty much
everything they've accomplished has come through the provision of +ACI-goods +ACY-
services+ACI- that have been declared illegal by Federal government, but which
remain in demand.
+AD4-I still don't
+AD4-see any alternative to some kind of governmental system, preferrably one
where
+AD4-people can hold government officials accountable and use of power is
+AD4-transparent.
I agree, with the qualification that I think such a government is a pipe
dream -- just like anarcho-capitalism.
Wilson
>On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:42:46 GMT, gmac...@hiwaay.net.this wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:02:10 GMT, jcoal...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>,
>>> wj...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>>> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>>> when they turn 7."
>>>
>>>Yes, and with the U.S. embargo, rationing could go below
>>>age 7.
>>>
>>>Given that the tyrant has been in power since 1959, and the
>>>U.S. embargo has been on since 1962, has the embargo shortened the
>>>length of his reign? By how much? Or has it lengthened it?
>>>
>>>Has it helped the Cuban people? In what way?
>>
>>What's stop *Fearless Leader* Fidel from obtaining *ANY* comodities elsewhere.
>>Just because they can't get them here isn't stopping their ability to go
>>elsewhere for *anything*.
>
>Actually, the US has put pressure on other countries to not trade with
>Cuba, with some success for years and years, although I don't know
>that it's all that successful anymore.
Castro offered confiscated U.S. property, for Canada and Europe to
run at a profit, with royalties to Uncle Fidel. They are not allowed
to pay the local employees directly. This was no problem for Canada
and the Europeans. The U.S. thought otherwise, and threatened
sanctions.
>
>But to eliminate the USA as a trading partner hardly seems like it
>would have little or no effect on a country 90 miles off our shores.
A totalitarian "socialist paradise" will always fail, (and here is the
important bit), as long as they are surrounded by strong democracies.
There are some who see this as an inconvenient impediment to be
removed at all cost.
The Soviets tried it and failed.
Castro will fail also, it's just a question of time.
SemiScholar
wrote:
>
>A totalitarian "socialist paradise" will always fail, (and here is the
>important bit), as long as they are surrounded by strong democracies.
Here I disagree. Leave out the "important bit" - "as long as they
are surrounded by strong democracies". Just leave it at:
A totalitarian "socialist paradise" will always fail.
>
>There are some who see this as an inconvenient impediment to be
>removed at all cost.
>
>The Soviets tried it and failed.
>
>Castro will fail also, it's just a question of time.
Does dying count as "failing"?
- SemiScholar
Tim Starr
[snip]
>Well, I think conservatives who bring up the authoritarian nature of
>Castro's regime...
Castro's regime is totalitarian, not just authoritarian.
>and the material advantages of living in the US are a bit hypocritical
>when they demand children and citizens from other third world
>countries, most of them authoritarian, be kicked out of the US or have
>the borders closed to them.
Those aren't totalitarian regimes. What conservatives have demanded
that immigrants from totalitarian regimes be kicked out? Conservatives
are the only ones I've ever heard objecting to the INS sending pregnant
women fleeing China's one-child policy being sent back to China where
they're forced to have abortions.
>Still, this is a rather silly case. I end up having to look at
>international law and American legal precedents...
Like what? What precedent says that refugees from totalitarian regimes
have to be sent back? Operation Keelhaul?
>I just know this story is getting as boring and irritating as the Jon
>Bennet Ramsey story...
Why are you bored by stories about innocent children being enslaved &
murdered?
--
Tim Starr
Class of '91, Capitalist State - Go Pigs!
(timstarr(at)c2.net)
Tim Starr
<scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>
>Actually, in a case like this, he probably would have been returned to
>the parent. Thats part of international law.
Since when has Castro obeyed international law?
>We certainly send back children to other authoritarian countries...
Cuba's totalitarian, not authoritarian. What totalitarian countries
does the US forcibly repatriate children to?
>many with worse conditions than Castro's Cuba...
Which ones?
>(which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
Bullshit. The average Cuban is much worse off now than they were under
Batista. Have you ever met any Cuban refugees, Professor Erb? I have.
They've told me that Castro was just as bad as Batista within months of
Batista's overthrow. Things have only gotten worse since then,
especially since the $3 billion per year Soviet subsidy ended in '91.
>Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
>relations and let the power of example and interaction show the Cuban
>people that there is a better way. Our policies now only strengthen
>Castro. And still, Castro's Cuba is better than many other third
>world authoritarian regimes.
There aren't any other totalitarian regimes in Latin America. There
aren't even any military dictatorships anymore, unless you count
Venezuela.
What "other third world authoritarian regimes" do you think are worse
than Cuba? North Korea?
>Historically the US has supported thuggery worse than Castro's.
Yah, the US supported the Soviet Union in WWII. Other than that, what
do you have in mind? No regime the US ever supported in Latin America
was worse than Castro's.
Tim Starr
<scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Bill Bonde wrote:
>
>>>many with worse conditions than Castro's Cuba (which arguably is
>>>much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
>>
>
>Actually, no. I think this style of government is wrong and should
>change. However, that doesn't deny the fact that for most Cubans
>Castro was better than Battista.
No, he wasn't. Castro was just as bad as Battista shortly after he
came to power. Batista was only authoritarian. Castro's totalitarian.
[snip]
>>How do you feel about Pinochet?
>
>He's certainly no better than Castro.cheers, scott
Pinochet's much better than Castro, if only because Pinochet peacefully
relinquished power, which Castro's never going to do. Pinochet's body
count is also much lower than Castro's, counting all of the Latin
American & African commie terrorists/guerillas he's supported.
Pinochet also never threatened to nuke anyone else, or called for the
Soviets to launch a first strike against the USA. Castro did.
Finally, Chile's standard of living is much better than Cuba's, thanks
to the difference between Castro's & Pinochet's economics policies.
Tim Starr
<scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading,
>and I bet that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin.
What totalitarian regime has ever ceased being totalitarian thanks to
free trade & normalized diplomatic relations?
Tim Starr
<scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>The CIA promised JFK that there would not be any need for US military
>back up operations...
Bullshit.
>...(they had planned the coup after the one that overthrew the
>democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatamala and installed
>a brutal authoritarian dictatorship).
1) Arbenz was democratically-elected, but violated the Guatemalan
constitution, just like Hitler in Germany & Allende in Chile.
2) The coup against Arbenz was supported by US military airpower, so
any coup modeled on it would include US military air support, as did
the Bay of Pigs invasion as it was originally planned before it was
altered by Kennedy.
3) Arbenz' successor Armas wasn't a dictator, he peacefully
relinquished power. It was Armas' successors who were dictators.
Tim Starr
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Walter Polovchak should have been sent back to the USSR, just as Elian
>Gonzales should be deported to Cuba, just like all other illegals...
Polovchak wasn't an "illegal," he was a defector. The US was right not
to force him to go back to the USSR.
You support totalitarianism if you support deporting people from free
countries to totalitarian ones.
>It's not the business of the USA to define the immigration policies
>of other nations.
The IMmigration policies of other nations have absolutely nothing to do
with this. No one's concerned with how many people Castro's willing to
let enter Cuba. If it were about Cuban policy it all, it would be
about Castro's EMigration policy - Castro's willingness to let people
leave Cuba.
But it's not even about Cuban policy, it's about US policy. Should US
policy be to forcibly repatriate people back to totalitarian regimes,
or should the US be an asylum for refugees from totalitarianism?
Should the US be the fugitive slave catcher for Commie dictators like
Castro, or should the US be a haven for the runaway slaves of Commie
dictators?
>It's not the business of 12-year olds to tell their parents where
>they're going to live, & that they're going to do it whether their
>parents like it or not.
That's plenty old enough to tell the difference between totalitarianism
& freedom, & to be competent to decide which one to live in. Parents
that want to drag their children back to totalitarian regimes like Cuba
are just acting as runaway slave catchers for their owners. They
forfeit their guardianship over their children.
Tim Starr
"Andrew Northbrook" <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>...I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban Cowards in
>Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm sick
>of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
>as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba,
>maybe they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
I'd like to see you say that to one of them in person, punk. They'd
drop you like an anchor. Those Cuban-Americans keeping a vigil outside
Elian's house in Miami to protect him from the INS slavecatchers are a
hell of a lot braver than you, & they're better Americans, too.
Tim Starr
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>& of course, for those who DON'T have balls, there's always Uncle
>Sugar's open borders to run to.
>
>After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty
>little thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take
>full advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else --
>presumably, someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the
>country you were too gutless to fight for...
What freedom have you ever fought for, punk? What have you ever done
except be a keyboard-jockey for totalitarians like Castro?
Tim Starr
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I was referring specifically to the cockroaches currently infesting
>Miami.
Those "cockroaches" are much finer human beings than you are,
Northbrook. When have you ever put your life on the line for something
you believed in?
sal...@my-deja.com
wj...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
> when they turn 7."
>
1. I believe that's FREE milk.
2. Only country in Western Hemisphere where anyone gets free milk.
3. Cuban ice cream is reputed to be pretty good.
Joseph R. Darancette
wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:42:46 GMT, gmac...@hiwaay.net.this wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:02:10 GMT, jcoal...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <38eb6344...@news.mindspring.com>,
>>> wj...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "If Elian Gonzalez were returned to Cuba today, he'd lose his
>>>> milk ration the very next year. Cuba cuts off milk to its children
>>>> when they turn 7."
>>>
>>>Yes, and with the U.S. embargo, rationing could go below
>>>age 7.
>>>
>>>Given that the tyrant has been in power since 1959, and the
>>>U.S. embargo has been on since 1962, has the embargo shortened the
>>>length of his reign? By how much? Or has it lengthened it?
>>>
>>>Has it helped the Cuban people? In what way?
>>
>>What's stop *Fearless Leader* Fidel from obtaining *ANY* comodities elsewhere.
>>Just because they can't get them here isn't stopping their ability to go
>>elsewhere for *anything*.
>
>Actually, the US has put pressure on other countries to not trade with
>Cuba, with some success for years and years, although I don't know
>that it's all that successful anymore.
>
>But to eliminate the USA as a trading partner hardly seems like it
>would have little or no effect on a country 90 miles off our shores.
>
I would submit that the standard of living is not much worse in Cuba
than other countries that have had "Help" and open trade with the US.
And most likely better than such places a Haiti and the Dominician
Republic. Cuba has nothiong to export except Sugar and Cigars. The US
has more than enough domestic sugar and Cigars, made with evil
tobacco, will be illlegal within 10 years.
The only thing that the US could give to Cuba are tourist $$$ and
forign aid.
Joseph R. Darancette
dar...@uia.net
Bill Bonde
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde wrote in message <38EC1674...@mail.com>...
> >
> >rose...@idt.net wrote:
> >>
> >> The "rule of law" in Elians case is a question of adhering
> >> tto OUR rule of law, NOT Castros.
> >>
> >We have no rule of law that says that Elian must go make no exceptions.
> >I've pointed out the 12 year old who wanted to stay even though BOTH of
> >his parents wanted him back in the fUSSR.
>
> Walter Polovchak should have been sent back to the USSR, just as Elian
> Gonzales should be deported to Cuba, just like all other illegals should be
> deported to their home countries when they're found. It's not the business
> of the USA to define the immigration policies of other nations.
>
You are a scary person. It is NOT the business of other countries to
define the United States policies. We have the right to accept or not
accept anyone we choose.
> It's not the
> business of 12-year olds to tell their parents where they're going to live,
> & that they're going to do it whether their parents like it or not.
>
Yea, in Cuba that's Castro's business because kids are property of the
state.
> >This isn't a right-wing, left-wing issue. Steve Largent from OK and a
> >Republican says we should send Elian back to Cuba.
>
> Bully for Largent. I knew there was something about him I liked.
>
For most people, the response about this depends on how they are looking
at the issue. Is it about a parent's right to have first custody of his
child? Is it about forcing a kid to go back to an evil country that is
responsible for the death of his mother?
> There was a very interesting letter in the San Jose Mercury News this
> morning. The author stated that, if it were Mrs Gonzales back in Havana & Mr
> Gonzales who had died trying to smuggle little Elian into America, the women
> of America would have stopped this nation DEAD to ensure the boy be returned
> to his mother. WTF ever happened to the rights of the FATHER?????
>
I am certainly of the view that father's rights are generally trampled
in this country.
Bill Bonde
Scott Erb wrote:
>
> Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
> > Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
> > Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
> > sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to them
> > as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba, maybe
> > they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>
> Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading, and I bet
> that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why the Cuban
> exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite enemy.cheers, scott
>
But it's not like they can't trade with any number of other countries
right now. Still they are pound the dirt poor.
Mary E Knadler
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> writes:
>
>Mary E Knadler dribbled down her chin:
>>
>>He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>by a free society.
>
ass about oppression & free societies????
>
>>Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine & her pals would be screaming
al over the place.
>
>If it was Augusto Pinochet's Chile we were talking about, you'd be
demanding the boy be returned as an illegal immigrant. This is just
more of your standard air-headed hypocrisy showing it's ugly,
ignorant little head again.
>
>--
>think about it,
>Andrew Northbrook
>If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to
disarm the rest of us. Don't be a nitwit.
yasmin2:
Stop being such a "nitwit" yourself & try to THINK about what YOU
post.
Pinochet never restricted people's right to travel that I ever heard
of. Also most of those who were in prison were left-wing rebels &
Communists who were trying to overthrow the government. Also it
would not make any difference to me if Elian were from Chile I would
like him to have the right to live here if that is what was
best for him.
If you think Cuba is so wonderful why don't you move there & leave
people like Elian alone. If his Mother wanted to live in Miami you
think it is perfectly alright for Castro to deny her that right.
Sounds like you were probably brain-washed by those leftist
Profs who so romanticize" about Fidel & Chi that they think everyone
else should agree with them.
Some people do not want to be Marxists.....sorry if that bothers YOU
but that is just the way it is.
And may YOU should THINK about THAT!
>
>
>
Mary E Knadler
<tazeved...@gte.net> writes:
>
>On 6 Apr 2000 04:01:27 GMT, yas...@ix.netcom.com (Mary E Knadler)
>wrote:
>
>>In <38EBE578...@maine.edu> Scott Erb <scot...@maine.edu>
writes:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>
>>>> He should stay here as many other Cubans have been doing for 40
>>years.
>>>> We didn't send those who escaped over the Berlin Wall either.
>>>> This is the same thing.
>>>
>>>Actually, in a case like this, he probably would have been returned
to
>>the
>>children
>>>to other authoritarian countries, many with worse conditions than
>>Castro's
>>>Cuba (which arguably is much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
>>>
>>>> indoctrinated by Castro's thugs. His Father appears to be a
>>>> die-hard Communist. This little boy does not need all that out
>>>> dated Marxist garbage forced down this throat.
>>>
>>>Actually, the best way to bring change to Cuba is to open up trade
>>>relations and let the power of example and interaction show the
Cuban
>>>people that there is a better way. Our policies now only strengthen
>>>Castro. And still, Castro's Cuba is better than many other third
>>world
>>worse
>>>than Castro's. We're sort of hypocritical when it comes to foreign
>>policy
>>>(though really, the anti-Communist card is obsolete, and Castro
>>recognizes
>>>the need for trade relations, hence Cuba's contacts with Canada and
>>Europe
>>>which have helped their economies and shut the US out because of a
>>weird
>>>fettish with Castro who is now entering decade FIVE of his rule).
>>>cheers, scott
>>>
>>>
>>yasmin2:'
>>He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>
>>no back bone at all. I guess some people never saw a Marxist
>>Dictator they didn't like. Now if it was a right-wing guy Maxine &
>>her pals would be screaming al over the place.
>>
>>
>>If I were involved I would take him as far away from Castro as
>>I could by whatever means I could. It is too bad Americans are
>>so oblivious to what it really is like for the Cuban people.
>
>In other words Maryloon believes in kidnapping.
>
>How many times have you been to Cuba, Maryloon ?
>
>mr_antone
yasmin2:
You know if YOU want to live there then fine but why force it on
those who have lived there & have hated living under oppression.
Just don't make other people do it YOUR way. I would take my own
children which would not be kidnapping......away from Fidel if I
so unfortunate to have been born in Cuba.
I have never been there & do not want to go there. The other
Islands are quite nice...some quite beautiful. I have visited most of
them but would not under any circumstances give my US dollars to
Castro. Why save him when he's now on the ropes.
Clinton wants to make his mark by going to Cuba & he will
be hugging & kissing this tyrant like his long lost brother. I
guess that must be his "game" plan .......& this little kid went &
screwed up his plans.
Yikes......is it just to make money......selling out freedom
for the chance to make a buck in Cuba is not my kind of legacy,
but who said the Clintons' had any class or ethics for that matter.
Bill Bonde
Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
> >
> >When that child goes back to Uncle Fidel, watch the parade.
>
> Is there something worse about his political football playing, then that of
> the Cuban Cowards infesting Miami?
>
What EXACTLY should they do? If they go back to Cuba and bring anything
like weapons with them from the United States, there will be an
international incite and a huge crackdown here. You have to have a
friendly base from which to launch rebel attacks and there isn't one.
Bill Bonde
"zepp, a weasel" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:04:31 -0700, "Andrew Northbrook"
> <ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
> >uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle devoted
> >to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
> >that they have so many choices. Besides, in most grocery stores, it's not
> >one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one aisle.
>
> If it doesn't disturb you, why do you feel a need to qualify it by
> reducing the volume of pet food in the store?
>
> I wasn't limiting myself to just Americans when I said that. We're
> used to the fact that we spend more on pet food than we do on fighting
> human starvation.
>
That is obviously true because there is no human starvation in the
United States.
Bill Bonde
Scott Erb wrote:
>
> Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
> >No, I didn't forget that at all. We could quibble over the exact
>
> > circumstances & reasons for JFK pulling the plug on the operation, but since
> > I'm not really up on the history of it, I'll beg off that argument for now.
>
> The CIA promised JFK that there would not be any need for US military back up
> operations (they had planned the coup after the one that overthrew the
> democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatamala and installed a brutal
> authoritarian dictatorship). Castro had studied the coup against Arbenz too,
> however, and was prepared -- he didn't crack like Arbenz did. The CIA believed
> that Kennedy would ultimately order US military back up, but Kennedy never
> promised it, and believed CIA claims it would not be necessary.
>
> In any event, it was a foreign policy fiasco, and I think even aiding the bay of
> pigs fighters (mostly NOT liberty-minded heros, but old thugs of Battista's
> regime) would not have changed much.
>
Obviously aid from the US would've meant no more Castro. That would be a
difference.
SemiScholar
And offshore banking to launder drug and mafia money. Worked pretty
good for the Caymans.
Don't underestimate the value of tourist dollars.
But you are correct about the general standard of living in some of
those carribean countries. I think, though, that Cuba has the
potential to be very different, since it's so much bigger.
- SemiScholar
johnz`
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Zepp wrote in message <38ec9129....@news.snowcrest.net>...
>>On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:16:29 -0700, Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yasmin2:'
>>>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>>>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>>>
>>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>
>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>
>REALLY??????
>
>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle
>devoted
>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>that they have so many choices. Besides, in most grocery stores, it's not
>one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one aisle.
>
>>But a six
>>year old doesn't have critical faculties
>
>Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the Cuban
>Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political football. I'm
>sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service to
>them
>as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in Cuba,
>maybe
>they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>
"I'm sick of this country paying so much attention to all those refugee
Jews who ran away from Hitler. If they're so committed to "freedom" for
Germany, maybe they oughta go back where they came from and fight for
it, instead of trying to ship every German refugee over here to this
country."
- Andrew Northbrook, circa 1934, presumably.
Your suggestion that Cuba might really be free now, compared to the
scarequote-indicated "freedom" we have in this country, is very
interesting, Northbrook. And very revealing.
Your concern for Elian's being used as a "football" is touching - it's
even more touching that your implied solution to this awful state of
affairs is to ship him right back to the misery-stricken dictatorial
Marxist-Leninist hellhole he escaped from, and that his mother died
trying to free him from.
JS
johnz`
(zepp, a weasel) wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:04:31 -0700, "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Zepp wrote in message <38ec9129....@news.snowcrest.net>...
>>>On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:16:29 -0700, Bill Bonde <std...@mail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mary E Knadler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> yasmin2:'
>>>>> He stills keeps his people in oppression that should not be condoned
>>>>> by a free society. I think it is cruel to send the boy back to be
>>>>> indoctrinated with all that Marxist garbage.
>>>>>
>>>>OTOH, it might be too late to indoctrinate him. He's found out, it
>>>>seems, that grocery stores in the United States actually have an entire
>>>>aisle for different types of pet foods.
>>>
>>>Most people find that a little horrifying, considering.
>>
>>REALLY??????
>>
>>Actually, I don't know a single person -- liberal, conservative, or
>>uncaring -- who is horrified at the idea of an entire grocery aisle
>>devoted
>>to different types of pet foods. In fact, they think it's a *good thing*
>>that they have so many choices. Besides, in most grocery stores, it's not
>>one entire aisle, anyway -- it's several shelves on one half of one
>>aisle.
>
>If it doesn't disturb you, why do you feel a need to qualify it by
>reducing the volume of pet food in the store?
>
>I wasn't limiting myself to just Americans when I said that. We're
>used to the fact that we spend more on pet food than we do on fighting
>human starvation.
That's right Zepp! Excellent point! Pet ownership is a wasteful
extravagance - every dog in the USA should be rounded up, run through
meat grinders, packed in cans and shipped off to all the starving poor
nations, right away!
Don't you agree, Zeppy?
JS
(snip)
>**********************************************************
>"Newt Gingrich showed the country that when he was Speaker
>of the House, he was banging more than just his gavel."
> -- Mark Russell
>
>For political commentary by Zepp, visit
>http://www.snowcrest.net/zepp/zeppol.html
>For links to all things Liberal/Leftist, go to
>http:/www.snowcrest.net/zepp/lynx.htm
>Warning: Contains ideas
>************************************************************
>Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
Mary E Knadler
>
>
>
>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>
>> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the
Cuban Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political
football. I'm sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much
lip service to them as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to
"freedom" in Cuba, maybe they oughta go back where they came from &
fight for it.
>
>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading,
and I bet that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe
thats why the Cuban exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their
favorite enemy.cheers, scott
>
>
yasmin2:
I cannot see how our trading with Castro will suddenly make him
change his ways. It will just keep him going longer. He trades
with all the other countries....what would the difference be if
we the lift the embargo.
Will he then let his people travel to Miami or any other place
as they might wish to do. People in the Cuban community have been
separated by this tyrant for years. You seem to blame the people
that left rather then Castro for all the problems in Cuba.
They got out & made better lives....alot of them have become very
successful & what would they have had if they had stayed in
Cuba....nothing like the rest of the people there.
Why people still cling to the idea that somehow the state of his
economy is everyone elses fault but Castro's is beyond me. He was
propped up for years by the USSR & when he lost that his problems
began. Why should we pick up the pieces until he becomes willing
to let his people live in freedom.
Cuban families have been separated for decades because of the
policies of this tyrant so what difference if Elian's in
the same boat as so many others.
Maybe some people in the US should spend sometime
in Communist countries & see if they think life is so great.
I doubt that they would.
Mary E Knadler
(Wilson) writes:
>
>In article <38ECA551...@maine.edu>, Scott Erb
<scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>>
>>> Which is exactly why I think it's so appallingly shameful that the
Cuban
>>> Cowards in Miami are using that little boy for a political
football. I'm
>>> sick of them, & I'm sick of this country paying so much lip service
to them
>>> as a voting block. IMHO, if they're so committed to "freedom" in
Cuba, maybe
>>> they oughta go back where they came from & fight for it.
>>
>>Oh hell, all we have to do is normalize relations and start trading,
and I bet
>>that Cuba will change so fast your head will spin. Maybe thats why
the Cuban
>>exiles don't want to do that -- they'd lose their favorite
enemy.cheers, scott
>>
>
>property, your business, brainwashed your kids, and told you what you
>could write, you might consider them a "favorite enemy".
>
>That is, if you had balls.
As a Prof I guess Scott would only feel uncomfortable in a right-wing
totalitarian state.
It never seems to bother those in academia when there is oppression
on the left. Rather curious but I guess as long as they can write &
teach the way they think & believe the "heck" with any other views.
That is really academia today........one way, our way!
Andrew Northbrook
>In article <8ci2nr$4s4$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Walter Polovchak should have been sent back to the USSR, just as Elian
>
>Polovchak wasn't an "illegal," he was a defector. The US was right not
>to force him to go back to the USSR.
>
>You support totalitarianism if you support deporting people from free
>countries to totalitarian ones.
I might actually consider your opinion credible, but there's a tiny little
matter standing in the way. See, you spend your entire post ranting about
Commie totalitarianism -- but I gotta wonder, if Elian Gonzales were
Haitian, what your attitude would be.
Or, if Elian had been a Chilean refugee fleeing from Pinochet. Or a poor
mestizo fleeing from Rios-Montt.
I've seen very little from you that would suggest you have even the
slightest shred of concern for people fleeing from RIGHT-WING tyrannies: I
can't help thinking you'd claim they were "economic" refugees, instead of
political ones -- as if that actually makes a discernible difference.
I'll withhold further judgement until you've responded.
Mary E Knadler
<ruthe...@rocketmail.com> writes:
>
>Wilson wrote in message ...
Sugar's
>open borders to run to.
>
>After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty
little
>thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take full
>advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else --
presumably,
>someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the country you
were too
"eternal
>struggle".
>
>You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be
considered a hero for doing so.
>
>--
>think about it,
>Andrew Northbrook
>If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to
disarm the
>rest of us. Don't be a nitwit.
>
>
>
YOU sound like such a "nitwit", what have you ever done for your
country. These people fled at the point of a gun. Have you ever
lived thru a revolution......who do you think you are to criticize
those who have come here & made better lives for themselves.
Most of them have not come here for welfare benefits. After all
your ancestors came here to make better lives for themselves.
Does that make you better than they..... Our families were all
emigres or immigrants at some point in time.
Andrew Northbrook
>In article <38ECA609...@maine.edu>, Scott Erb
><scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Bill Bonde wrote:
>>
>>>>many with worse conditions than Castro's Cuba (which arguably is
>>>>much better than Battista's mafia-led Cuba!)
>>>
>>
>>Actually, no. I think this style of government is wrong and should
>>change. However, that doesn't deny the fact that for most Cubans
>>Castro was better than Battista.
>
>No, he wasn't. Castro was just as bad as Battista shortly after he
>came to power. Batista was only authoritarian. Castro's totalitarian.
>
>[snip]
>
>>>How do you feel about Pinochet?
>>
>>He's certainly no better than Castro.cheers, scott
>
>Pinochet's much better than Castro, if only because Pinochet peacefully
>relinquished power, which Castro's never going to do. Pinochet's body
>count is also much lower than Castro's, counting all of the Latin
>American & African commie terrorists/guerillas he's supported.
>Pinochet also never threatened to nuke anyone else, or called for the
>Soviets to launch a first strike against the USA. Castro did.
>Finally, Chile's standard of living is much better than Cuba's, thanks
>to the difference between Castro's & Pinochet's economics policies.
Somehow, Tim, I'm not surprised at all to see that brutal dictators don't
bother you, so long as they're RIGHT-WING dictators. Don't even think to
talk about who supports totalitarianism & who doesn't, since everyone can
see which one of us REALLY does.
Quite frankly, you're a piece of shit.
Andrew Northbrook
>In article <38ECC8C8...@maine.edu>, Scott Erb
><scot...@maine.edu> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>The CIA promised JFK that there would not be any need for US military
>
>Bullshit.
>
>>...(they had planned the coup after the one that overthrew the
>>democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatamala and installed
>>a brutal authoritarian dictatorship).
>
>constitution, just like Hitler in Germany & Allende in Chile.
Kindly explain where that justified the United States throwing him out of
office. If he violated the Guatemalan constitution, that's for Guatemalans
to deal with -- not Uncle Sugar.
>3) Arbenz' successor Armas wasn't a dictator, he peacefully
>relinquished power. It was Armas' successors who were dictators.
Well, hell, that just makes it all hunky-dory for ol' Tim Starr, Apologist
For Right-Wing Dictators. Somehow I suspect that lots of Guatemalans don't
agree, but since they're all dead, we can't ask them. But hey, at least they
were murdered by a RIGHT-WING dictator, & that makes it A-OK, eh Tim?
>Tim Starr
>Class of '91, Capitalist State - Go Pigs!
You're not a capitalist, so please quit lying. REAL capitalists don't
support strong-arm takeovers of democratically-elected governments. You're
nothing more than an apologist -- one of the lowest forms of life on the
planet.
But, you are a PIG.
Andrew Northbrook
>In article <8ciekq$h60$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>& of course, for those who DON'T have balls, there's always Uncle
>>Sugar's open borders to run to.
>>
>>After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty
>>little thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take
>>full advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else --
>>presumably, someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the
>
>What freedom have you ever fought for, punk? What have you ever done
>except be a keyboard-jockey for totalitarians like Castro?
Well, now, isn't that just a fascinating charge, coming from Pinochet's
self-appointed shill. Starr, I swear I feel dirty just writing this, knowing
that I'm communicating with a piece of shit like YOU.
I've fortunately never had to fight for my freedom. But I'll be damned if
I'd ever run to some other country & demand they do it for me. I've always
been ready to stay right here & fight for THIS country, if need be. If I
die, well, then I die -- but I'm gonna die HERE, in THIS country.
That puts me MILES above the Cuban Cockroaches, & MILES FURTHER above a
scum-fuck like you.
BTW, Starr: ever served in the military?
Andrew Northbrook
>In article <8cifhj$t6h$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>I was referring specifically to the cockroaches currently infesting
>>Miami.
>
>Those "cockroaches" are much finer human beings than you are,
>Northbrook.
This, coming from a man who supports Pinochet, & then accuses others of
supporting totalitarianism.
What a piece of fucking work you are.
Andrew Northbrook
>
>
>Andrew Northbrook wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >When that child goes back to Uncle Fidel, watch the parade.
>>
>> Is there something worse about his political football playing, then that
of
>> the Cuban Cowards infesting Miami?
>>
>What EXACTLY should they do?
Stayed & fought for their own country, instead of coming to America &
demanding that Uncle Sugar do it for them.
Of course, now that they're here & the GOP whores for them, they don't have
to go anywhere or do anything. Why should they? Like I said, the weather is
Miami is just as nice, & they don't need to worry about fighting for
anything.
Don't try to elicit my sympathy for them. I have none, have never held any,
& refuse to summon any up.
Andrew Northbrook
>In <8ciekq$h60$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> "Andrew Northbrook"
><ruthe...@rocketmail.com> writes:
>>
>>Wilson wrote in message ...
><scot...@maine.edu>
>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>Sugar's
>>open borders to run to.
>>
>>After all, the weather's just as nice in Miami, & there's this nifty
>little
>>thing called "freedom of speech & the press" that you can take full
>>advantage of. That way you can demand that somebody else --
>presumably,
>>someone who has the balls you DON'T have -- go free the country you
>were too
>"eternal
>>struggle".
>>
>>You can even play political football with a 6-year old, & be
>considered a hero for doing so.
>>
>>think about it,
>>Andrew Northbrook
>>If it wasn't for nitwits with guns, other nitwits wouldn't try to
>disarm the
>>rest of us. Don't be a nitwit
>>
>
>YOU sound like such a "nitwit", what have you ever done for your
>country.
Ah yes, Starr's female counterpart: Little Mary Fluffhead, who'd drop to her
knees & suck Pinochet's dick if he were standing in front of her.
I served my time in the US military, you worthless piece of so-called female
fecal matter, though that's none of your business. At least I've done
something more than wax rhapsodic over neo-Nazi thugs.