A Big Shitstorm in Commercial Real Estate is Coming
Lisa Lisa
Commercial Real Estate ‘Crisis’ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A
By David Wilson
Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- “A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
approaching” in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
LLC.
The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
-- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
-- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
longest streak since 1992.
Property prices have fallen by 30 percent to 50 percent from their
peaks, Zisler estimated yesterday in a report. The plunge has wiped
out the equity in most real-estate deals that relied on debt financing
since 2005, he wrote.
Zisler, whose firm focuses on real-estate investment, estimated that
building owners will default on $500 billion to $750 billion of
mortgage debt. This equals as much as 54 percent of the $1.4 trillion
in loans that will come due in four years, by his count.
“Much of the debt is likely worth about 50 percent of par, or less,”
the report said. Many banks will end up insolvent as they reduce the
value of their holdings, he wrote, adding that regional and community
lenders are especially vulnerable.
California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
Chiang’s monthly review of the state’s finances.
(To save a copy of the chart, click here.)
To contact the reporter on this story: David Wilson in New York at
dwi...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: November 11, 2009 11:11 EST
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lab~rat >:-)
<harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A
>By David Wilson
>
>Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>LLC.
>
>The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>-- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>-- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>longest streak since 1992.
>
>Property prices have fallen by 30 percent to 50 percent from their
>peaks, Zisler estimated yesterday in a report. The plunge has wiped
>out the equity in most real-estate deals that relied on debt financing
>since 2005, he wrote.
>
>Zisler, whose firm focuses on real-estate investment, estimated that
>building owners will default on $500 billion to $750 billion of
>mortgage debt. This equals as much as 54 percent of the $1.4 trillion
>in loans that will come due in four years, by his count.
>
>ÔøΩMuch of the debt is likely worth about 50 percent of par, or less,ÔøΩ
>the report said. Many banks will end up insolvent as they reduce the
>value of their holdings, he wrote, adding that regional and community
>lenders are especially vulnerable.
>
>California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
A good time to be a demolition contractor.
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
Foxtrot
>Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>Commercial Real Estate �Crisis� Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>>Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- �A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>approaching� in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>LLC.
>>
>>The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>-- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>-- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>longest streak since 1992.
>>California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>Chiang�s monthly review of the state�s finances.
>
>A good time to be a demolition contractor.
There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
phil scott
> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
...same here in the SF bay area... and this mess has not yet even
begun to roll.
Meantime state govt continues to bloat, as the state civil service
baby boomers are retiring
in record numbers. many at well over $150.000 dollars a year. if you
include the value of their lush
full service medical and dental care for life.
The tax bas will see another 50% drop imo over the next 24 months...
meantime the expected deficit that
was stated at 90 billion a year ago has been magically trimmed to 20
billion or so... wont happen, it will be
in the 50 to 100 billion dollar range June 2010 or 2011.
Those the state has leverage on (via seizable property) will be hit
hard, as there is no way to collect
from an increasingly itinerant and dwingling work force ... especially
without driving even more business from
california.
Im in calif myself, fortunately semi retired, living on a boat (read
low taxes and slip rental)...but still you get
tagged every time you turn around. the state is ruthless about
collections...
Im setting up to run my engineering consulting and specialty
equipment businesss (low volume but high end per unit) from
offshore...
thats down from 27 employees earlier in my career... and earning in
the top 5% bracket, and paying 60%+ of my total income in taxes..
now... Im in the lowest tax brackets, get a lot of rest, do a lot of
fishing, relaxing and plotting...... as the state wonders why its
going broke.
Ones mission it seems these days, should one choose to accept it, is
to dodge the govt rip off bullets, while trying earn
enough dealing with the rest of the over taxed business people to
survive...
(one solution for consultants at least is to pick niches that you can
fill nationally, mostly by telecommute... high value, small ticket
packages, and freebie intro services..., combined with low living cost
strategy
Phil scott
phil scott
>
> Last Updated: November 11, 2009 11:11 EST
>
> Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | Trademarks
that mess with commcl real estate of course will trigger vast damage
to the rest of the economy.. right now
being forstalled by the banks holding off on forclosures, collapsing
the market entirely... they cant keep this
up forever.
(so why do we see Warren Buffet buying a railroad etc? I look at
this way, money *must be invested in this
world of funny money printing, many of these investments are simple
least of the worst options.)
... combined with collapsing job market, lower wages for those
employed, higher govt costs, and a massive
herd of civil service baby boomers retiring (with no way in hell to
fund those retirements most 4x to 10x the private
sector that pays for the rip off).
Now is a superb time to get one of a low rent fix it. maintenance/
operations / range of services going...
the high end stuff, even for doctors and
attorneys will dry up 70% or so, leaving them unable to meet mortgage
payments and in trouble...similar for state
and fed govt jobs, no way to pay them except by printing funny money,
so these will see furloughs, and wage rates cut,
even as the dollar tanks. Those will still be the most fortunate
imo however, financially at least.
Us freelance types need to get mean and lean as hell.. and smart in
how we do business... good deals, but no driving 40 miles across town
for a few hours work or 'free estimates'... those of us on SS or a
pension will have a good chance of viability... those of us not on a
pernsion etc will see mean times even with top range skills.... with
low range skills, and/or a narrow range of skills... it will be
nasty.
the biggest trick will be finding a way to live dirt cheap, while
plying ones trade or profession...boat living works well, but sticks
you to a location, motor homes work, but cities are trying to
discourage that.... we will see how that washes as the unemployment
rate rises to 25 or 30% and there is no way to beat everyone living in
a van to death.
Mobile living tricks:
- Join a 24 hour fitness chain.. lifetime membership under $1,000
you can
do the spa, work out and shower there.
- a boat or motorhome/van is nice and you can spend your time out of
it
and in the restaurants and movies, on the beach, lake or woods..and
with friends.. and in resort areas.. it
can be a superior life style for a man and wife.
- If its older, the license fees and taxes are low. along with
insurance etc. 5k will get you
a clean 35' motor home these days.. low mileage, in the mid 90's age
range... boats are almost
free in some areas as the formerly weill off are not hurting and cant
pay the slip rentals.
- You can have wireless broadband that works nationally for $60 a
month.
all this as your competitors suffer to pay high rents or mortgages on
upside down
property and must travel to and from each job every day... mobile you
dont have that
issue or expense to pass on to your customers.
Phil scott
Nickname unavailable
of course all this points out to the real culprit in what is the
matter with american economy, commercial real estate houses business's
that sell to what, workers, which is demand. demand plummets, and so
does the fortunes of those whom relies on demand.
so will the milton friedmanites in the change that matters
administration deviate from the old milton friedmanits polices, and
work to heal demand? i doubt it.
geithner, summers, bernanke, romer, emanual will announce another
bail out, and it will be funneled thru wall street and big banks so
they can earn fee's which will heal their off shore tax haven
accounts.
Nickname unavailable
make sure you get a unit if you can with at least one slide out, it
make a big difference room wise.
pyjamarama
> Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A
> By David Wilson
That's not the least of it -- thus far, we haven't really yet felt a
nickel's pain from Obama's budget rape (no help either but that's
another story)...
IOW, the inflation/monetary shitstorm that's coming is going to make
commercial real estate shitstorm look like a nice place to park
whatever assets you haven't converted to precious metals.
11 trillion in NEW debt, this man-child has racked up already in what,
ten months?
Libs are gonna get a crash course in Econ 101 real soon...
As will the American people, unfortunately (although they're way ahead
of the administration in sensing the danger).
Within two years there won't be a rational person in this country
who'll admit to having voted for Obama.
Phlip
> That's not the least of it -- thus far, we haven't really yet felt a
> nickel's pain from Obama's budget rape (no help either but that's
> another story)...
You FOOL!
Don't you know the budget was raped by Obama's predecessor, Bill Clinton??
Nickname unavailable
its deflation stupid. its the conservatives that racked up the debt.
Werner
Socialism sucks when government takes from Peter to pay Paul and
you're Peter.
Dollars in the common treasury are like fish in the common sea -
anyone who can will harvest to extinction. That is why socialism is
fundamentally corrupting and can not work. The Fed is making a lot of
paper fish. This is an illusion of wealth. The real fish are gone.
----
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/how.shtml
Governing has become a way to get privileges for some at the expense
of others.
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/what.shtml
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2008/August/the-national-debt.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp8ZmQMCtqA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FSoXKapKQs&feature=related
Nickname unavailable
> On Nov 11, 7:04 pm, Nickname unavailable <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 11, 12:33 pm, Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > of course all this points out to the real culprit in what is the
> > matter with american economy, commercial real estate houses business's
> > that sell to what, workers, which is demand. demand plummets, and so
> > does the fortunes of those whom relies on demand.
> > so will the milton friedmanites in the change that matters
> > administration deviate from the old milton friedmanits polices, and
> > work to heal demand? i doubt it.
> > geithner, summers, bernanke, romer, emanual will announce another
> > bail out, and it will be funneled thru wall street and big banks so
> > they can earn fee's which will heal their off shore tax haven
> > accounts.
>
> Socialism sucks when government takes from Peter to pay Paul and
> you're Peter.
its the corporations, free market fundamentalism that sank the worlds
economy. keep making a ass out of yourself, and we will be happy to
point it out.
> Dollars in the common treasury are like fish in the common sea -
> anyone who can will harvest to extinction. That is why socialism is
> fundamentally corrupting and can not work. The Fed is making a lot of
> paper fish. This is an illusion of wealth. The real fish are gone.
> ----http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/how.shtml
lab~rat >:-)
>"lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>
>>Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>>Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>
>>>Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>>approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>>Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>>LLC.
>>>
>>>The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>>-- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>>-- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>>Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>>longest streak since 1992.
>
>>>California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>>commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>>default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>>ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
>>
>>A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>
>There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>
There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
abandoned in S. Florida. I'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
solution at one point.
Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
industry these days? It's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
extent...
Poetic Justice
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <fox...@null.com> puked:
>
>> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- “A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>>> approaching” in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>>> LLC.
>>>>
>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>
>
> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
> abandoned in S. Florida. I'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
> solution at one point.
they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... and the owners
that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
their mortgaged properties......
> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
> industry these days? It's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
> extent...
I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
two years before the crash.....
I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. Opted
to retire a bit early.
pyjamarama
What planet are you on, twit? Obama has added, or is in the process
of adding more debt in ten months than Bush did in eight years.
And that's by CBO numbers...
Conservatives haven't been in the business of budgeting since 2006,
nimrod...
Just for kicks, what was the unemployment rate back then?
Phlip
> What planet are you on, twit? Obama has added, or is in the process
> of adding more debt in ten months than Bush did in eight years.
>
> And that's by CBO numbers...
You are talking about the estimates for health care, right?
> Conservatives haven't been in the business of budgeting since 2006,
> nimrod...
>
> Just for kicks, what was the unemployment rate back then?
Every time the GOP has the White House, the national debt at least doubles.
lab~rat >:-)
<PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <fox...@null.com> puked:
>>
>>> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>>>> Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>>>> approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>>>> LLC.
>>>>>
>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>>>> ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>>
>>
>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>> abandoned in S. Florida. I'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>> solution at one point.
>
>they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... and the owners
>that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>their mortgaged properties......
Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>> industry these days? It's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>> extent...
>
>I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>two years before the crash.....
>
>I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. Opted
>to retire a bit early.
>
I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. My business model shows that
I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. It also shows that I'll
sell them for $100 each. It may sound a little steep, but I'm
planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
apple butter and bacon bits...
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
>> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <fox...@null.com> puked:
>>>
>>>> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- “A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>>>>> approaching” in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>>>>> LLC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>>>
>>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>>> abandoned in S. Florida. I'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>>> solution at one point.
>> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... and the owners
>> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>> their mortgaged properties......
>
> Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
>>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>>> industry these days? It's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>>> extent...
>> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>> two years before the crash.....
>>
>> I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. Opted
>> to retire a bit early.
>>
>
> I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. My business model shows that
> I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. It also shows that I'll
> sell them for $100 each. It may sound a little steep, but I'm
> planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
> apple butter and bacon bits...
Good plan I'm sure the government will back you with the money. They
backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
>> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <fox...@null.com> puked:
>>>
>>>> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> puked:
>>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- “A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>>>>>> approaching” in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>>>>>> LLC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>>>
>>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>>> abandoned in S. Florida. I'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>>> solution at one point.
>> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... and the owners
>> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>> their mortgaged properties......
>
> Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
>>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>>> industry these days? It's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>>> extent...
>> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>> two years before the crash.....
>>
>> I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. Opted
>> to retire a bit early.
>>
>
> I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. My business model shows that
> I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. It also shows that I'll
> sell them for $100 each. It may sound a little steep, but I'm
> planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
> apple butter and bacon bits...
Good plan I'm sure the government will back you with the money. They
backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
Nickname unavailable
of course that is a lie numb nuts. is bushs tarp, and bernanke's(a
republican)spending, its bushs budget, and the drop in tax receipts
comes from the blowout in the american economy in the fall of 2006
stupid.
we know, and even some republicans will admit, to bushs jobeless
recovery, and 2 recessions/depression.
> And that's by CBO numbers...
>
> Conservatives haven't been in the business of budgeting since 2006,
> nimrod...
>
of course that to is a lie. bushs budget passed in 2007, and 2008,
and the budget for 2009.
> Just for kicks, what was the unemployment rate back then?
unemployment was going up like crazy well before obama was ever
elected stupid. now lets see how really stupid you are, is the
monetary base expanding right now, or contracting, are wages
expanding, or contracting, is consumer spending rising, or falling.
now look up the word deflation moron.
Nickname unavailable
dog.com> wrote:
> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>
> >>>> "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
more jobs.
have you got one functioning brain cell?
Werner
> On Nov 11, 10:10 pm, Werner <whetz...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 7:04 pm, Nickname unavailable <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 11, 12:33 pm, Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > of course all this points out to the real culprit in what is the
> > > matter with american economy, commercial real estate houses business's
> > > that sell to what, workers, which is demand. demand plummets, and so
> > > does the fortunes of those whom relies on demand.
> > > so will the milton friedmanites in the change that matters
> > > administration deviate from the old milton friedmanits polices, and
> > > work to heal demand? i doubt it.
> > > geithner, summers, bernanke, romer, emanual will announce another
> > > bail out, and it will be funneled thru wall street and big banks so
> > > they can earn fee's which will heal their off shore tax haven
> > > accounts.
>
> > Socialism sucks when government takes from Peter to pay Paul and
> > you're Peter.
>
> its the corporations, free market fundamentalism that sank the worlds
> economy. keep making a ass out of yourself, and we will be happy to
> point it out.
>
>
With help from your government.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Further information: 2008 GSE support plan
The Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal
Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac), two large government-
sponsored enterprises, are the two largest single mortgage backing
entity in the United States. Between the two corporations, they back
nearly half of all mortgages, around $12 trillion as of 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_meltdown#Role_of_government_and_regulators
Fannie and Freddie are private companies where the profits go to
shareholders and losses go to taxpayers. There are a lot of people
(including your humble analyst) who have complained about the current
set-up. Basically, they were allowed to leverage their capital beyond
what even your most leveraged hedge fund would think prudent. How
could the value of homes go down? Leverage up and show huge profits,
pay monster salaries and bonuses to management who did nothing but
increase risk, and spend $170 million on lobbyists to make sure that
no one changes the rules.
http://reason.com/blog/show/130670.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nU3fNh-PRk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfoToPyae0s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSqhrHIfJV0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
'In analyzing the mortgage crisis, economist Walter E. Williams has
written: “Starting with the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, that
was
given more teeth during the Clinton administration, Congress
started
intimidating banks and other financial institutions into
making loans,
so-called sub-prime loans, to high-risk homebuyers and
businesses.
“The carrot offered was that these high-risk loans would be purchased
by
the government-sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Anyone
with an ounce of brains would have known that this was a
prescription
for disaster but there was a congressional chorus of
denial,” he added.
“The financial collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is not a
failure
of the free market because lending institutions in a free
market would
not have taken on the high-risk loans,” said Williams.
“They were forced
to by the heavy hand of government.” '
"In 1992, Congress mandated that Fannie and Freddie increase their
purchases
of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers.
Operating under
that requirement, Fannie Mae, in particular, has been
aggressive and
creative in stimulating minority gains."
"The two companies are now required to devote 42% of their portfolios
to
loans for low- and moderate-income borrowers"
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/may/31/news/mn-42807
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nU3fNh-PRk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfoToPyae0s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSqhrHIfJV0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usvG-s_Ssb0
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYz1rbB5V1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivmL-lXNy64&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usvG-s_Ssb0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALAIEYq5Y00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjYDzyQNqX8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CcFdjXvjvE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZHOxJLUGI&NR=1
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575A...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575A...
http://americanfuturefund.com/2008/09/25/barney-frank-blocks-reform-a...
• 1) Securitization for residential mortgages was invented in 1970 by
Ginnie Mae. It was expanded by government sponsored enterprises (e.g.,
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) and private institutions through the 1980s
and '90s to include a wide range of financial assets. 2) Congress has
consistently eliminated regulatory obstacles to securitization with
the Secondary Mortgage Market Enhancement Act (SMMEA), Real Estate
Mortgage Investment Conduits (REMICs), Financial Asset Securitization
Investment Trusts (FASITs), and Riegle Community Development and
Regulatory Improvement Act.
3) The Riegle Act also instructed federal
regulators to reduce risk-based capital requirements for bank holdings
of small business loan securities.
http://www.nado.org/loansales/securitization1.html
regulation derivatives
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut/370925
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syN3rdpFqaQ&feature=related
Find out moe about the CRA
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv17n4/vmck4-94.pdf
--
The CRA tells a financial institution that if
it moves into such an area, financial regu
latory agencies and community groups will
dictate how its “community” will be
defined, how its performance will be
judged, and most importantly, how it will
make its lending decisions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivmL-lXNy64&feature=PlayList&p=361DB6BCAD6E0D19&playnext=1&index=2
http://www.subprimemortgageplan.com/Community_Reinvestment_Act_Subprime_Mortgage_Crisis.php
Nickname unavailable
to bad dummy it was the unregulated private sector that sold
mortgages to people whom they knew could not pay them back, then
securitized them, and sold them to unsuspecting investors all over the
world. now those crappy loans cannot be paid back, and the unregulated
derivatives markets are imploding because of the bad bets on the cdo's
and other unregulated nonsense. you did it to yourselves dummy.
free market capitalism always, and i mean, always ends poorly.
Poetic Justice
> On Nov 12, 5:54 pm, Werner <whetz...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> to bad dummy it was the unregulated private sector that sold
> mortgages to people whom they knew could not pay them back, then
Under duress from congress and the Justice Department who will charge
them with discrimination if they refuse to make the risky loans...
It looked to them like making the loans and passing them to FAnnie Mae
was the better choice. I see their point. Then Fannie Mae took the
loans and bundled them into investments and they sold what they knew
were high risk investments. Tannie Mae ws selling what amounted to
financial time bombs, all it took was a small down turn to trigger the
implosion of those holding the Fannie Mae investments.
Fanny Mae is 100% residential loans and Fannie Freddie handle 70% of all
residential loans. The loans failing were residential.
why would anyone want to buy a Fanny Mae investment that they are selling?
Nickname unavailable
wrote:
> Nickname unavailable wrote:
> > On Nov 12, 5:54 pm, Werner <whetz...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > to bad dummy it was the unregulated private sector that sold
> > mortgages to people whom they knew could not pay them back, then
>
> Under duress from congress and the Justice Department who will charge
> them with discrimination if they refuse to make the risky loans...
>
oh bo-ho, most housing problems are in the lilly white exurbs. keep
lying, at least you are consistent.
> It looked to them like making the loans and passing them to FAnnie Mae
> was the better choice. I see their point. Then Fannie Mae took the
> loans and bundled them into investments and they sold what they knew
> were high risk investments. Tannie Mae ws selling what amounted to
> financial time bombs, all it took was a small down turn to trigger the
> implosion of those holding the Fannie Mae investments.
>
the macs got into trouble, no doubt about it. but, it was the free
market, unregulated mortgage brokers who issued most of those bogus
loans, then sold them to banks, and wall street to be securitized. you
just do not get it do you. but one brain celled creatures rarely do.
then of course bushs 2003 no down payment law, really set the housing
market on fire.
> Fanny Mae is 100% residential loans and Fannie Freddie handle 70% of all
> residential loans. The loans failing were residential.
>
fanny never issued the loans dummy.
> why would anyone want to buy a Fanny Mae investment that they are selling?
>
same could be said about wall street dummy.
Lisa Lisa
> On Nov 12, 7:50 pm, Poetic Justice <Poetic-Justice@talk-n-dog...com>
> wrote:
>
> > Nickname unavailable wrote:
> > Fanny Mae is 100% residential loans and Fannie Freddie handle 70% of all
> > residential loans. The loans failing were residential.
And now they ain't. How about that, huh?
> fanny never issued the loans dummy.
>
> > why would anyone want to buy a Fanny Mae investment that they are selling?
>
> same could be said about wall street dummy.
Hear, hear! Lance speaks the truth. Anyone who thinks that those
corporate profits are entirely genuine has spent too much time raiding
the liquor cabinet.
But hey---if you all want to invest, be my guest. Stocks can only go
up----just like housing. Right?
Lisa
Nickname unavailable
deflation for dummies:price decreases at Walmart helped fuel a second
consecutive quarterly decline in sales at U.S. stores open at least a
year, they're spending less when they get there because the goods are
priced lower because of deflation
demand is driven by wages, deflation is driven by a lack of demand.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/WalMart-Kohls-Holidays-could-apf-445255309.html?x=0
Wal-Mart, Kohl's: Holidays could be rough
Wal-Mart, Kohl's boosts outlooks, but shoppers's focus on basics
shadows holiday forecasts
• By Anne D'Innocenzio, AP Retail Writer
• On 5:02 pm EST, Thursday November 12, 2009
NEW YORK (AP) -- Shoppers' focus on staples such as socks and
underwear is driving murky holiday outlooks at Wal-Mart and Kohl's,
even as both posted higher third-quarter earnings Thursday.
Both signaled they plan aggressive discounting to hang on to customers
and drive sales this holiday season.
Wal-Mart Stores' price-cutting campaign is bringing more shoppers in
the door. But they're spending less when they get there because the
goods are priced lower -- because of deflation, especially for meat
and dairy items, and discounts designed to bring people into its
stores.
The price decreases at Walmart helped fuel a second consecutive
quarterly decline in sales at U.S. stores open at least a year, a key
measurement of a retailer's health because it excludes the effects of
expansion. The company expects sales could continue to decline through
the fourth quarter.
The discounts seems to be working. Company Treasurer Charles Holley
told reporters Thursday that it has had "a very good" response to its
aggressive price cutting on holiday items like its heavily advertised
12-pound turkey for $5. He added that Walmart.com has had "record
hits" following price slashing on highly anticipated top book titles
and DVDs. And Wal-Mart boosted its full-year profit outlook.
The world's largest retailer has been able to grab wealthier consumers
trading down from higher-priced stores, but the discounter has also
seen growing signs of financial strain among its core customers,
noticing more pronounced swings in spending between paycheck cycles in
recent quarters.
"Our customers continue to tell us they are concerned about their own
finances and employment," said Eduardo Castro-Wright, vice chairman of
Wal-Mart Stores Inc., who heads up the U.S. Walmart business.
Department store operator Nordstrom Inc. announced late Thursday that
its profit rose 17 percent in its fiscal third quarter, and it raised
its 2009 profit outlook. Luxury stores such as Nordstrom saw solid
sales gains last month from the sharp falloff a year ago.
"The upper income shoppers are starting to come out of the
discretionary spending hibernation, but the lower- to middle-income
shoppers are squeezed," said Ken Perkins, president of research firm
Retail Metrics.
The cautious holiday outlooks drew a shadow over quarters in which
both Wal-Mart and Kohl's increased profit.
Wal-Mart, which generated $400 billion in sales last year, is
considered a key barometer of consumer spending, which accounts for 70
percent of U.S. economic activity.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc.'s profit rose 3.2 percent in third-quarter profit
to $3.24 billion, helped by cost-cutting measures like slashing
inventories. Revenue rose 1.1 percent to $99.4 billion.
But sales at its U.S. stores open at least a year slipped 0.4 percent,
and the company predicted that they could be down as much as 1 percent
for the critical fourth quarter, fueling more worries about the
holiday shopping season and the economy.
Wal-Mart's apparel business saw smaller sales declines from the
previous quarter, but the category's best-performing areas were
necessities like socks and underwear. Sales of more discretionary
items like shoes and jewelry were weak. Kohl's CEO Kevin Mansell said
necessities like coats and underwear are among the best-selling items.
"The consumer is extremely focused on stretching their dollar."
Mansell said. "We fully expect competition to be aggressive on price.
We intend to ensure consumers view Kohl's as giving the very best
value this holiday."
Shares of Wal-Mart rose 41 cents to $53.38 in afternoon trading.
Wal-Mart predicts earnings per share in the fourth quarter to be in
the range of $1.08 and $1.12. As a result, it's raising its full-year
guidance to $3.57 to $3.61 per share, from $3.50 to $3.60 per share.
In the third quarter, Kohl's profit rose 21 percent to $193 million.
Revenue was up 7 percent to $4.05 billion.
Kohl's, based in Menomonee Falls, Wis., raised its full-year earnings
guidance to $2.98 to $3.08 per share, from previous guidance of $2.59
to $2.70 per share.
Kohl's shares rose 32 cents to $54.91 in afternoon trading.
AP Retail Writer Mae Anderson in New York contributed to this report.
Nickname unavailable
yep, and they are setting us up again.
How Far Can This Rally Go? The fire keeps burning as long as there's
wood, but, stocks are still grossly overvalued
How Far Can This Rally Go?
• By Simon Maierhofer
• On 12:37 pm EST, Thursday November 12, 2009
The fire keeps burning as long as there's wood. The market keeps going
up as long as there are sufficient buyers.
True as this statement is, it doesn't help much when it comes to
forming a strategy to profit from the market's shenanigans. Here are a
few tips that will:
De-couple yourself from emotions
There's a time and place for emotions to roam free. Your spouse, kids,
friends, family and even golf game deserve their fair share of
emotions, money does not.
This is tough, because personal fortunes are linked to what your money
does, or does not do. Successful investors, however, have an arm's
length, business type relationship with their own funds. This prevents
them from getting caught up in frenzied buying or selling, which is
almost always wrong.
Remember the last time everyone around you felt like they needed to
sell stocks? Chances are this was right around March, when stocks
approached their 10+ year lows. If you sold, as many did, chances are
you ended up regretting this move. By now, you may or may not have
jumped back into the market.
If you did, ask yourself: Why would you want to own any stock after
it's run up 30, 40, 50%, rather than holding or buying it when it was
'cheap?' You guessed it -- emotions. Everyone was selling, so selling
must have been the right thing to do - it wasn't. Now everyone is
buying, so buying must be the right thing to do - or is it?
From their March lows to their October/November highs, the S&P 500
(SNP: ^GSPC), Dow Jones (DJI: ^DJI), and Nasdaq (Nasdaq: ^IXIC) gained
more than 65%. With every percentage point the market pushes higher,
the risk of owning stocks increases. Here's why.
The three stages - stage 1
Most commonly there are three stages to a major market advance. Stage
1 starts with the bounce from the preceding bottom and tends to be
quite powerful. Stage 1 gains usually coincide with the extreme
pessimism found at the previous bottom and that's why most investors,
aside from buy-and-hold, miss out on the initial stages of a rally.
If recognized in time, however, stage 1 represents the biggest profit
opportunity and highest risk/reward ratio. You could consider stage 1
the 'low hanging' fruits of profits. On a risk adjusted basis, stage 1
gains are the most desirable as downside risk is lower than in any
other stage of the rally because stocks are closest to their lowest
point. Stage 1 rally profits were reaped starting with the March 9th
low for the Dow Jones (NYSEArca: DIA - News), S&P 500 (NYSEArca: SPY -
News), Nasdaq (Nasdaq: QQQQ - News), and other indexes.
Of course, those 'low hanging profits' are only real profits if you
didn't get slaughtered by the prior decline. In December 2008, the ETF
Profit Strategy Newsletter warned subscribers of an impending down-
turn and recommended to use any reading above Dow 9,000 as a selling
opportunity.
From January 2nd to January 6th, the Dow hovered above 9,000 before
falling 30% over the next 30 days. After giving Dow 6,700 as a target
range for a market bottom, the newsletter sent out a Trend Change
Alert on March 2nd, predicting the onset of the biggest rally since
the October 2007 all-time highs. The market delivered, and rich stage
1 gains were harvested.
The three stages - stage 2
The profits in stage 2 are often more limited as the gains of stage 1
are being digested. Sometimes the fear that the market has gone too
far to fast, sets in. This brings uncertainty as to whether any
declines will result in a retest of the prior lows. We saw such a
'digestive period' from mid-March to mid-July.
The three stages - stage 3
Even though stage 3 is accompanied by the sentiment that the worst is
over and a new bull market is at hand, the profits presented by stage
3 are less desirable. Money is money and profits are profits, so how
can profits be less desirable?
Simply put, being invested throughout the tail-end of any rally
increases the odds for lower prices exponentially. Asking the tough
question, such as - How much more upside potential is there after a
65% monster rally? - can go a long way when it comes to protecting and
growing your money. On a risk adjusted basis, stage 1 and stage 2
profits are much more attractive than stage 3 profits.
Stage 3 - how high can it go?
Theoretically, the sky is the limit and rallies can go on forever. How
can one determine whether the up-trend is coming to an end? There is
no magic formula, but there are a number of indicators that serve as
effective red flags.
High beta indexes such as small caps (NYSEArca: IWM - News),
technology (NYSEArca: XLK - News) and sectors that spearheaded prior
declines/advances - such as financials (NYSEArca: XLF - News) and real
estate (NYSEArca: IYR - News) - tend to take the lead throughout
stages 1 and 2, but start showing signs of fatigue towards the later
part of stage 3.
Just as these sectors lead the advance as long as the bull is strong,
they start to lag when the bull tires. Monday (11-9-09) saw the Dow
jump to new highs, while the S&P, Nasdaq, and Russell 1000 (NYSEArca:
IWB - News) stayed behind.
This was corrected two days later, when the S&P, Nasdaq, and Russell
also pushed to new highs. As of today, however, small cap and mid cap
(NYSEArca: MDY - News) stocks failed to confirm this poke to new
recovery highs.
This means that investor's appetite for risk is waning. It is usually
the later part of a stage 3 rally that investors are flocking towards
large and safe (blue chip) companies, while withdrawing their funds
from more speculative issues.
In addition to the behavior of the various sectors, there are
resistance levels the market tends to respect. Such levels can be
formed by either trend line channels or Fibonacci retracement, or a
combination of both.
What happens after a stage 3 rally top?
Just as important as not getting surprised by a stage 3 rally top, is
having an idea of what happens thereafter. Will the market merely
trade sideways and digest the gains, correct and go on to new highs,
or collapse like it did after the mother of all sucker rallies in
1930?
There is no shortage of indicators suggesting that the foregone
conclusion of a jobless recovery' is not much more than wishful
thinking.
If we block out the noise and go back to the basics, we'll remember
that tumbling real estate prices sent the mortgage portfolios of banks
and lenders south. As long as real estate prices remain subdued,
banks' suffering balance sheets won't see true relief.
The Associated Press just reported that third quarter median home
prices fell in 123 out of 153 metropolitan areas over the past year,
with a nationwide median decline of 11%. This can't be good for banks.
Perhaps that's why the SPDR KBW Bank ETF (NYSEArca: KBE - News) and
SPDR KBW Regional Bank ETF (NYSEArca: KRE - News) are still over 10%
below their recovery highs.
Covered by a wet blanket
Rising stock prices have, thus far, covered up even major cracks in
the foundation - such as unemployment and bank losses on their
mortgage portfolios.
Ironically, it will probably be falling stock prices that will trigger
the media's renewed interest on what's really going on.
Over the short-term, stocks are about to reach major resistance based
on its own trend channel, Fibonacci resistance and historical
parallels.
Over the long-term, stocks are still grossly overvalued. This will
become all too obvious if you take a look at the levels P/E ratios,
dividend yields, and mutual fund cash reserves have reached at major
market tops.
The November issue of the ETF Profit Strategy Newsletter plots the
historic performance of the stock market against P/E ratios, dividend
yields, and two other trusted indicators, along with target levels for
the ultimate market bottom and the top of this rally.
A picture paints a thousand words and those charts speak volumes about
the market's future. The fire keeps burning as long as there's wood.
Let's enjoy the heat while we still have it, but be prepared for the
cold.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 12, 4:23ÔøΩpm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
>dog.com> wrote:
>> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
>> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>>
>> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>>
>> >>>> "lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
>> >>>>>> Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>> >>>>>> approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>> >>>>>> LLC.
>>
>> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>> >>>>>> ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
>> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>
>> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>> >>> abandoned in S. Florida. ÔøΩI'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>> >>> solution at one point.
>> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... ÔøΩand the owners
>> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>> >> their mortgaged properties......
>>
>> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>>
>> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>> >>> industry these days? ÔøΩIt's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>> >>> extent...
>> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>> >> two years before the crash.....
>>
>> >> I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. ÔøΩOpted
>> >> to retire a bit early.
>>
>> > I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. ÔøΩMy business model shows that
>> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. ÔøΩIt also shows that I'll
>> > sell them for $100 each. ÔøΩIt may sound a little steep, but I'm
>> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
>> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>>
>> Good plan I'm sure the government will back you with the money. ÔøΩThey
>> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>>
>> > --
>> > lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
>company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
>yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
>bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
>car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
>more jobs.
> have you got one functioning brain cell?
Just curious, what countries are you referring to? Would they happen
to be socialist countries?
alexy
>On Nov 12, 9:26�pm, Nickname unavailable <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote:
>> > why would anyone want to buy a Fanny Mae investment that they are selling?
>>
>> �same could be said about wall street dummy.
>
>Hear, hear! Lance speaks the truth.
Yes, and I'm just as surprised by that as you are. The article he
posted provides good argument for how badly emotional investors do.
> Anyone who thinks that those
>corporate profits are entirely genuine has spent too much time raiding
>the liquor cabinet.
That's not what is driving the markets, IMO; it is the expectation of
higher profits in the future. Look at the P/Es.
>But hey---if you all want to invest, be my guest. Stocks can only go
>up----just like housing. Right?
People who believe that are every bit as dumb as those who think
investing in the markets is always a bad idea.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
alexy
Excellent article.
I agree with Taleb that back-fitting explanations to market movements
like this is a fools errand, but his points about the dangers of
letting emotion (largely driven by herd instinct) drive investments is
very valid.
Nickname unavailable
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 12, 4:23Êpm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
> >dog.com> wrote:
> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> >> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>
>
> >> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
> >> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÒA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
> >> >>>>>> approachingÓ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
> >> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
> >> >>>>>> LLC.
>
> >> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
> >> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
> >> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
> >> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
> >> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
> >> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
> >> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
> >> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
> >> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
> >> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
> >> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
> >> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>
> >> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
> >> >>> solution at one point.
> >> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... Êand the owners
> >> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
> >> >> their mortgaged properties......
>
> >> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
> >> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
> >> >>> extent...
> >> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
> >> >> two years before the crash.....
>
> >> >> to retire a bit early.
>
> >> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. ÊIt also shows that I'll
> >> > sell them for $100 each. ÊIt may sound a little steep, but I'm
> >> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
> >> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>
> >> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>
> >> > --
> >> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> > good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
> >company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
> >yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
> >bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
> >car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
> >more jobs.
> > have you got one functioning brain cell?
>
> Just curious, what countries are you referring to? Would they happen
> to be socialist countries?
> --
you would not know socialism if it bite you in the ass. when i mean
just about every country with car manufacturers, i mean just about
every country with car manufacturers.
i posted many, many articles proving that when the conservative/
libertarian drooling dummies started their stupid attacks on trying to
save ours, it matters not if the car companies were in japan, europe,
america, canada, asia india, they all almost got some sort of bailouts
and subsidies.
Nickname unavailable
here is the guy lisa who called both you and i, nilly willys back in
2006-2007, when we predicted the housing market implosion, and what
the results would be. he argued we knew nothing, and were fear
mongering. he backed free market economics back then.
he is a stalker, and when you prove him wrong, he will dog you till
he finds some sort of simple mistake in spelling, or wording, as a
opening to try to prove you wrong, so as to ease his little mind that
you proved him wrong. its been pointed out to me that he uses the same
sort of tactics that scientologists use. i think that is correct. any
attempt at a civil discussion with him is useless. you will soon find
yourself sinking in quicksand. he aims for ever more confusion as the
attempt at a civil discussion wears on.
alexy
That's more like the Video we know, and why it is so noteworthy when
he speaks the truth.
Werner
Assets, like houses, are a hedge against inflation. The Fed is
inflating assets to avert depressing them.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 13, 8:17ÔøΩam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Nov 12, 4:23ÔøΩpm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
>> >dog.com> wrote:
>> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
>> >> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>>
>> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> >> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>>
>> >> >>>> "lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
>> >> >>>>>> Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>> >> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>> >> >>>>>> approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>> >> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>> >> >>>>>> LLC.
>>
>> >> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>> >> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>> >> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>> >> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>> >> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>> >> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>> >> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>> >> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>> >> >>>>>> ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
>> >> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>> >> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>> >> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>> >> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>
>> >> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>> >> >>> abandoned in S. Florida. ÔøΩI'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>> >> >>> solution at one point.
>> >> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... ÔøΩand the owners
>> >> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>> >> >> their mortgaged properties......
>>
>> >> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>>
>> >> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>> >> >>> industry these days? ÔøΩIt's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>> >> >>> extent...
>> >> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>> >> >> two years before the crash.....
>>
>> >> >> I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. ÔøΩOpted
>> >> >> to retire a bit early.
>>
>> >> > I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. ÔøΩMy business model shows that
>> >> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. ÔøΩIt also shows that I'll
>> >> > sell them for $100 each. ÔøΩIt may sound a little steep, but I'm
>> >> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
>> >> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>>
>> >> Good plan I'm sure the government will back you with the money. ÔøΩThey
>> >> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>>
>> >> > --
>> >> > lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> >> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>
>> > good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
>> >company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
>> >yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
>> >bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
>> >car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
>> >more jobs.
>> > have you got one functioning brain cell?
>>
>> Just curious, what countries are you referring to? ÔøΩWould they happen
>> to be socialist countries?
>> --
>
>
> you would not know socialism if it bite you in the ass. when i mean
>just about every country with car manufacturers, i mean just about
>every country with car manufacturers.
> i posted many, many articles proving that when the conservative/
>libertarian drooling dummies started their stupid attacks on trying to
>save ours, it matters not if the car companies were in japan, europe,
>america, canada, asia india, they all almost got some sort of bailouts
>and subsidies.
So what you're saying is socialist countries. Was that so hard?
--
Nickname unavailable
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:42:17 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 13, 8:17Êam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >dog.com> wrote:
> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> >> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> >> >> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
> >> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> >> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>
>
> >> >> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
> >> >> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ñA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
> >> >> >>>>>> approachingî in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
> >> >> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
> >> >> >>>>>> LLC.
>
> >> >> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
> >> >> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
> >> >> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
> >> >> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
> >> >> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
> >> >> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
> >> >> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
> >> >> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
> >> >> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
> >> >> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
> >> >> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
> >> >> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>
> >> >> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
> >> >> >>> solution at one point.
> >> >> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... æand the owners
> >> >> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
> >> >> >> their mortgaged properties......
>
> >> >> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
> >> >> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
> >> >> >>> extent...
> >> >> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
> >> >> >> two years before the crash.....
>
> >> >> >> to retire a bit early.
>
> >> >> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. æIt also shows that I'll
> >> >> > sell them for $100 each. æIt may sound a little steep, but I'm
> >> >> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
> >> >> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>
> >> >> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> >> > good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
> >> >company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
> >> >yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
> >> >bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
> >> >car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
> >> >more jobs.
> >> > have you got one functioning brain cell?
>
> >> to be socialist countries?
> >> --
>
> > you would not know socialism if it bite you in the ass. when i mean
> >just about every country with car manufacturers, i mean just about
> >every country with car manufacturers.
> > i posted many, many articles proving that when the conservative/
> >libertarian drooling dummies started their stupid attacks on trying to
> >save ours, it matters not if the car companies were in japan, europe,
> >america, canada, asia india, they all almost got some sort of bailouts
> >and subsidies.
>
> So what you're saying is socialist countries. Was that so hard?
> --
so every country that makes cars are socialist? if that is so, it
speaks volumes for socialism.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 16, 8:10ÔøΩam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:42:17 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Nov 13, 8:17ÔøΩam, "lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>> >> >On Nov 12, 4:23ÔøΩpm, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-
>> >> >dog.com> wrote:
>> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> >> >> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
>> >> >> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>>
>> >> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
>> >> >> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>>
>> >> >> >>>> "lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
>> >> >> >>>>>> Commercial Real Estate ÔøΩCrisisÔøΩ Looming for U.S.: Chart of Day Share
>> >> >> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- ÔøΩA crisis of unprecedented proportions is
>> >> >> >>>>>> approachingÔøΩ in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
>> >> >> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
>> >> >> >>>>>> LLC.
>>
>> >> >> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
>> >> >> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
>> >> >> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
>> >> >> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
>> >> >> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
>> >> >> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
>> >> >> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
>> >> >> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
>> >> >> >>>>>> ChiangÔøΩs monthly review of the stateÔøΩs finances.
>> >> >> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
>> >> >> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
>> >> >> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
>> >> >> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>>
>> >> >> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
>> >> >> >>> abandoned in S. Florida. ÔøΩI'm thinking section 8 housing might be a
>> >> >> >>> solution at one point.
>> >> >> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... ÔøΩand the owners
>> >> >> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
>> >> >> >> their mortgaged properties......
>>
>> >> >> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>>
>> >> >> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
>> >> >> >>> industry these days? ÔøΩIt's enough to make a man bitter to a certain
>> >> >> >>> extent...
>> >> >> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
>> >> >> >> two years before the crash.....
>>
>> >> >> >> I saw it all coming so I don't mind, juts changed my life style. ÔøΩOpted
>> >> >> >> to retire a bit early.
>>
>> >> >> > I'm thinking of opening a hot dog stand. ÔøΩMy business model shows that
>> >> >> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. ÔøΩIt also shows that I'll
>> >> >> > sell them for $100 each. ÔøΩIt may sound a little steep, but I'm
>> >> >> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
>> >> >> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>>
>> >> >> Good plan I'm sure the government will back you with the money. ÔøΩThey
>> >> >> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>>
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> >> >> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>
>> >> > good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
>> >> >company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
>> >> >yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
>> >> >bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
>> >> >car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
>> >> >more jobs.
>> >> > have you got one functioning brain cell?
>>
>> >> Just curious, what countries are you referring to? ÔøΩWould they happen
>> >> to be socialist countries?
>> >> --
>>
>> > you would not know socialism if it bite you in the ass. when i mean
>> >just about every country with car manufacturers, i mean just about
>> >every country with car manufacturers.
>> > i posted many, many articles proving that when the conservative/
>> >libertarian drooling dummies started their stupid attacks on trying to
>> >save ours, it matters not if the car companies were in japan, europe,
>> >america, canada, asia india, they all almost got some sort of bailouts
>> >and subsidies.
>>
>> So what you're saying is socialist countries. ÔøΩWas that so hard?
>> --
>
> so every country that makes cars are socialist? if that is so, it
>speaks volumes for socialism.
>
You avoided answering the question and I filled in the blanks.
--
Nickname unavailable
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:27:07 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 16, 8:10Êam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:42:17 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> >dog.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:10:57 -0500, Poetic Justice
> >> >> >> > <PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
> >> >> >> >> lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:43:19 -0800, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> puked:
>
>
> >> >> >> >>>>> Lisa Lisa <harryharr...@yahoo.com> puked:
> >> >> >> >>>>>> Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- –A crisis of unprecedented proportions is
> >> >> >> >>>>>> approaching” in the U.S. commercial real-estate market, according to
> >> >> >> >>>>>> Randall Zisler, chief executive officer of Zisler Capital Partners
> >> >> >> >>>>>> LLC.
>
> >> >> >> >>>>>> The CHART OF THE DAY displays quarterly returns on commercial property
> >> >> >> >>>>>> -- apartment buildings, hotels, industrial sites, offices and stores
> >> >> >> >>>>>> -- as compiled by the National Council of Real Estate Investment
> >> >> >> >>>>>> Fiduciaries. Returns were negative for the past five quarters, the
> >> >> >> >>>>>> longest streak since 1992.
> >> >> >> >>>>>> California, in particular, is experiencing a downward spiral in
> >> >> >> >>>>>> commercial property as prices decline and a growing number of tenants
> >> >> >> >>>>>> default, Zisler wrote. His analysis was included in Controller John
> >> >> >> >>>>> A good time to be a demolition contractor.
> >> >> >> >>>> There are a lot of vacant commercial buildings in southern California.
> >> >> >> >>>> Small, medium and enormous including a dozen or so huge buildings
> >> >> >> >>>> near me that used to be occupied by Countrywide.
>
> >> >> >> >>> There are dozens of condos that haven't even been finished and sit
> >> >> >> >>> solution at one point.
> >> >> >> >> they haven't destroyed the housing they are in yet... ¾and the owners
> >> >> >> >> that get rent from the government for section 8 renters will all lose
> >> >> >> >> their mortgaged properties......
>
> >> >> >> > Yeah, but there'll be plenty more prospective renters in coming times.
>
> >> >> >> >>> Not to mention, how'd ya like to be in the commercial construction
> >> >> >> >>> extent...
> >> >> >> >> I Put together coffee shops and Chinese take-out restaurants the last
> >> >> >> >> two years before the crash.....
>
> >> >> >> >> to retire a bit early.
>
> >> >> >> > I need to sell 15 hot dogs to crack my nut. ¾It also shows that I'll
> >> >> >> > sell them for $100 each. ¾It may sound a little steep, but I'm
> >> >> >> > planning on offering toppings that you can't get in other places like
> >> >> >> > apple butter and bacon bits...
>
> >> >> >> backed GM who does a similar thing with cars.
>
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> >> >> > good god, how dumb can conservatives be. just about every car
> >> >> >company, in just about every country bailed out there car companies.
> >> >> >yet, we are not supposed to bail ours out. what do you think the
> >> >> >bailed out car companies in other countries will do when we let our
> >> >> >car companies go under, geesh moron, they will take our market and
> >> >> >more jobs.
> >> >> > have you got one functioning brain cell?
>
> >> >> to be socialist countries?
> >> >> --
>
> >> > you would not know socialism if it bite you in the ass. when i mean
> >> >just about every country with car manufacturers, i mean just about
> >> >every country with car manufacturers.
> >> > i posted many, many articles proving that when the conservative/
> >> >libertarian drooling dummies started their stupid attacks on trying to
> >> >save ours, it matters not if the car companies were in japan, europe,
> >> >america, canada, asia india, they all almost got some sort of bailouts
> >> >and subsidies.
>
> >> --
>
> > so every country that makes cars are socialist? if that is so, it
> >speaks volumes for socialism.
>
> You avoided answering the question and I filled in the blanks.
> --
> lab~rat >:-)
> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
nope, you pointed out how stupid you are.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 16, 11:47 am, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
I would rather be what I am than a socialist such as yourself.
pyjamarama
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:30:17 -0500, "lab~rat >:-)"> Yes, but piles of shit smell bad.
Yes, you do...
GARY ROSELLES (aka "smor...@board...") left-wing sociopath and author
of the following “views” on race, homosexuality, death-threats and,
lest we forget, killing govt. officials and teenage girls:
"She (Katherine Harris) should be at least shot" -- Gary Roselles
"I call Kathering[sic] Harris a nazi/fascist right wing ideologue
whore.
What did we do to German nazis right wing whores?" -- Gary
Roselles
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.clinton/msg/9431827dde9eb727?dmode=source
“May a real american someday have the honor of putting a bullet
between her eyes." -- Gary Roselles on B. Robertson's teenage
daughter.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.bush/msg/346a12114c9884ee?hl=en&dmode=source
What the fuck would a dumb cocksucker like (Distinguished African-
American Scholar, Thomas) Sowell, who sits out at Stanford, never
having
worked a day in his Uncle Tom life, know anything?" -- Gary
Roselles
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.rush-limbaugh/msg/652f875e53203e8e?hl=en&
"Both are traitors to their race" -- Race Purist Gary Roselles on the
importance
of Race Loyalty
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.rush-limbaugh/msg/90646e9b4da37793
"You actually think that placing blackskinned, white thinking people
is going to gain anything with real minorities?" -- Gary Roselles,
Racist
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater/msg/1b116fa0999182fb
(see header)
"Them brown niggers need to be taken out" -- Gary Roselles, Racist
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.republicans/msg/421a0f9263435ca4
"He (African-American scholar Thomas Sowell) goes against his own
kind." Race loyalist Gary Roselles, insisting once again that “them
blacks” should "stick
to their own kind"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/17fcf97abe2e4ee2?dmode=source
"His appointment will bridge nothing. It's apparant he's being an
uncle tom to appease voters." -- White trash, racist asshole Gary
Roselles
slurs African-American Hero General Colin Powell
"Group Negro Poster Pyjamarma admits to being a coconut headed coon"
-- Gary Roselles, pathetic racist
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.rush-limbaugh/msg/d9ccfefc35328516?dmode=source
"Say "yes Massa", Uncle Tom." – Vile racist Gary Roselles pathetically
mocks and
slurs prominent African-American man-of-the-cloth Jesse Lee
Peterson
"How does a pampered, Stanford based, Scaife funded, Uncle Tom make
judgements on "the bottom", McFly?" -- Another day, another racial
slur on an educated, successful, independent black man from Gary
Roselles
"I consider hating RIGHT WING nazi/fascist fucks like you a God
inspired emotion."
"Hating RIGHT WINGERS is doing God's work, Dumbapropyl" -- Pure,
venomous hate-speech from "god-inspired" whackjob Gary Roselles
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.clinton/msg/9431827dde9eb727?dmode=source
Yeah, there's a real fucking credible authority----Hitchens a faggot
socialist." -- Gary Roselles, “f”-bomb droppin’ rabid homophobe
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.conservatism/msg/d2ab5e412f7ed8e7?dmode=source
"You're like that kid that has just been told that's not a hot-dog
he's sucking on" -- Gary Roselles, Pedophile, admits forcing oral
copulation on a child
http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.politics/msg/fcf8198215ac03f2?as_ums
Nickname unavailable
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:25:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
you mean you admit you are stupid, just come right out and say it.
its quite easy. just open your mouth and say "I AM STUPID"
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 17, 7:30 am, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
Your calling me stupid carries no weight with me. I asked you to cite
examples of your claim of automotive bailout in other countries and
you failed to do so, citing "all countries that make cars".
Bluster all ya want, socialist name caller.
Nickname unavailable
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:58:05 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
nope, you said all socialist countries, try to back track stupid. i
will post a small example, it will not matter. though, i have learned
that facts are a waste of time with conservatives.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=a9a5EurW52oc
VW, Porsche Halt Work as Slump Touches Europe’s Auto Heartland
By Andreas Cremer
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen AG and Porsche SE said they’ll
suspend production at their hometown plants in coming weeks as the
global recession reaches to the heart of the German automotive
industry, Europe’s biggest.
VW will shutter its factory in Wolfsburg from Dec. 18 to Jan. 11,
according to a company official who declined to be identified. Porsche
will halt output in Stuttgart for seven days between now and the end
of January. Each plant is its owner’s biggest and located at the
global headquarters.
Volkswagen employs 44,000 people in Wolfsburg, a quarter of its
175,000-strong German workforce. Production is being cut after vehicle
sales fell 5.1 percent last month, even with a lineup of models such
as the Golf and Polo that is regarded as well-suited to customer
requirements for smaller, less-costly and more fuel-efficient cars.
Porsche suffered a 50 percent drop in deliveries in October, including
a 40 percent decline in sales of its trademark 911 sports car.
“I don’t think that Porsche’s customers have suddenly fallen into
poverty, but they’re reacting to the fact that it may be inappropriate
to pull up in a new Porsche when their neighbor’s house is being
foreclosed,” said Christoph Stuermer, an analyst at research firm IHS
Global Insight in Frankfurt. For VW, the closure shows the new Golf
“can’t defy gravity,” he said.
Shares Decline
Porsche dropped 3.23 euros, or 5.8 percent, to 52.77 euros in
Frankfurt trading. VW, which is part-owned by Porsche, fell 74.71
euros, or 23 percent, to 255 euros, the most since Oct. 29. Its
decline was intensified as investors sold stock to match a reweighting
of the company in global indexes compiled by MSCI, due to take place
tonight.
Volkswagen, Europe’s largest carmaker, will also shutter parts of the
Wolfsburg plant on Dec. 5, the official said. In addition to the next
generation of the best-selling Golf, the factory makes components for
the Golf-based Variant station wagon and assembles the Touran minivan
and Tiguan compact sport-utility vehicle. The halt in production has
yet to be approved by management and labor representatives.
“No company is able to extricate itself from this crisis, not even
Volkswagen,” said Frank Schwope, a Hanover-based analyst at NordLB
with a “sell” recommendation on the stock. “It would be a delusion for
any carmaker to expect to get through this maelstrom without extending
Christmas vacation.”
Production at Porsche’s Stuttgart plant was already halted for one day
last week, the company said in a statement, without specifying on
which days the other closures will fall. Wages won’t be affected
because of overtime already banked by workers.
Georg Stuerzer, a Munich-based analyst with UniCredit, said the stock-
market reaction to Porsche’s announcement was “much too negative” as
the stoppages equate to only about 1,500 cars.
Jobs Slashed
Other European carmakers are already firing or laying off workers to
rein in production and clear inventories of unsold vehicles that have
grown since the start of the year.
PSA Peugeot Citroen, Europe’s second-biggest carmaker, plans to slash
3,550 posts through voluntary departures, among them 2,700 office
jobs, the Paris-based company said Nov. 20. The cuts follow the
elimination of 15,000 positions in the past two years as the company
sought to reduce costs.
Renault SA, the French No. 2., has almost “no production left to cut”
this year after announcing 6,000 job cuts in the summer and shuttering
several plants through December, Michel Gornet, head of manufacturing
and logistics, said Nov. 18.
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, the world’s largest maker of luxury
autos, is reducing the global workforce by 8,100 people. The company
will also eliminate 500 temporary posts at its factory in Leipzig,
Germany, it said today.
Volkswagen share-price decline reduces gains this year to 63 percent
and values the company at 79 billion euros.
MSCI Adjustment
MSCI said Nov. 17 it would consider 40 percent of VW’s common equity
as so-called free float for its indexes, down from 50 percent
previously. Funds whose only mandate is to mirror company weightings
must reduce their holdings in the carmaker when the change happens
tonight as part of MSCI’s semi-annual rebalance of indexes.
Volkswagen’s free float, or pool of shares available to trade, was cut
after Porsche said Oct. 26 it owned a 42.6 percent stake and options
equivalent to a further 31.5 percent. VW accounts for 0.34 percent of
the MSCI World Index, and 8.8 percent of the MSCI Germany, Bloomberg
data show.
To contact the reporter on this story: Andreas Cremer in Berlin at
acr...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: November 25, 2008 12:15 EST
american hating conservatives who blame union workers, are caught
lying again:Nissan Motor Co. is burning thru cash, Japan’s third-
largest automaker, said it won’t display its latest car and truck
models at the Detroit or Chicago auto shows as the company works to
conserve funds amid sagging industrywide demand
nissan burning thru cash
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aH4PKXzyZB7I
Nissan Pulling Out of Detroit, Chicago Auto Shows (Update2)
By Alan Ohnsman
Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Nissan Motor Co., Japan’s third- largest
automaker, said it won’t display its latest car and truck models at
the Detroit or Chicago auto shows as the company works to conserve
funds amid sagging industrywide demand.
Nissan last week unveiled three new models at the Los Angeles Auto
Show and had no major model line additions that would be ready for the
Detroit show in January, Alan Buddendeck, Nissan’s vice president of
corporate communications for North America, said in an interview
today.
With its decision, Tokyo-based Nissan becomes the seventh carmaker to
pull out of Detroit, the main U.S. showcase for new models. Last week
Mitsubishi Motors Corp., Japan’s fifth-largest automaker, said it
wouldn’t attend Detroit this year, following similar decisions by
Suzuki Motor Corp., Ferrari SpA, Land Rover and Bayerische Motoren
Werke AG’s Rolls-Royce. Porsche SE abandoned Detroit in 2007.
“It’s a surprise for Nissan to cancel, since they are one of the
Japanese Big 3 and you’d expect them to have a presence at every major
auto show,” said George Peterson, president of industry consultant
AutoPacific Inc. in Tustin, California.
“Given how weak the market is right now, it’s also understandable
since these shows are very expensive events, and can cost millions of
dollars in some cases,” Peterson said.
Slowing Demand
Industrywide U.S. sales of new autos have fallen 15 percent this year,
and dropped 32 percent in October as the credit crunch cut loan access
and a sagging economy pushed consumer confidence to a record low.
Nissan’s U.S. deliveries are down 6.2 percent in 2008.
General Motors Corp. canceled plans this month to unveil new models in
Los Angeles, citing a need to conserve funds.
“It’s no slight against Detroit or Chicago,” Buddendeck said. “We had
good success with the three vehicles announced in Los Angeles and
those announcements are the same ones we would have discussed at the
other shows.”
Nissan in Los Angeles unveiled a U.S. version of its box- shaped Cube
wagon that goes on sale early next year, as well as the 370Z sports
coupe and convertible version of its Infiniti G37 luxury car.
Nissan’s U.S. operations are based in Franklin, Tennessee. The
company’s American depositary receipts rose 6.3 percent to $7.58 at
5:20 p.m. New York time in Nasdaq Stock Market composite trading.
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at
aohn...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: November 24, 2008 18:34 EST
lying american hating conservatives blame the workers, whilst
automakers around the world are reeling just like detroit is:Car sales
in Europe have fallen dramatically since July, with an estimated 17
percent drop in the fourth quarter alone
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_france_peugeot_citroen
Peugeot Citroen to cut 2,700 jobs
PARIS – French automaker PSA Peugeot Citroen said Thursday it plans to
cut 2,700 jobs in response to the worsening economic crisis that has
seen European car sales plummet.
The plan, to be carried out through voluntary departures, is necessary
because doing nothing "could throw into question, in the long run, the
very survival of the group and its 200,000 jobs," the company said in
a statement.
In a statement, the car maker said the cuts would be made "at all
sites and in all group departments."
Car sales in Europe have fallen dramatically since July, with an
estimated 17 percent drop in the fourth quarter alone, Peugeot Citroen
said.
"This recession will continue in 2009," the company warned, with a
minimum decline of 10 percent Europe-wide for the year, Peugeot
Citroen forecast.
The carmaker also announced a plan to shift about 900 factory workers
from its plant in Rennes to other sites, because of a "significant
drop" in demand for the mid- to upper-range sedans built at Rennes.
Peugeot shares fell on the news, and at 0930 GMT were down 3.3 percent
at €12.89 ($16.29).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lying conservatives, filled with hate and rage against the american
worker, have been caught lying again: PSA Peugeot CitroenEurope's
second- biggest carmaker, plans to cut 3,550 jobs through voluntary
departures as the region's auto-market downturn gathers pace
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aKVorLa7.luQ
Peugeot to Cut 3,550 Jobs on `Violent' Sales Slump (Update1)
By Laurence Frost
Nov. 20 (Bloomberg) --, PSA Peugeot CitroenEurope's second- biggest
carmaker, plans to cut 3,550 jobs through voluntary departures as the
region's auto-market downturn gathers pace.
Peugeot aims to eliminate 2,700 white-collar positions across France
and 850 at its plant in Rennes, France, the Paris- based carmaker said
in a statement today.
The plan is a response to the ``financial and industrial crisis
affecting the whole economy, leading to a violent decline in sales,''
Peugeot said.
European auto registrations plunged almost 15 percent in October, with
Peugeot's dropping 16 percent, as housing slumps in Spain, the U.K.
and Italy compounded consumers' worries and discouraged large
purchases. Along with smaller domestic rival Renault SA, Peugeot is
temporarily shuttering plants to reduce inventories of unsold
vehicles.
An additional 900 factory workers at Rennes will be asked to choose
between transfers to other French plants or voluntary departures,
company spokesman Pierre-Olivier Salmon said in a telephone interview.
``This wasn't part of our planning,'' he said. ``We thought the job
cuts carried out last year would be enough, but the economic crisis
has changed that.''
The Rennes plant assembles the Citroen C5 and Peugeot 407 mid-sized
cars, a category of vehicle whose sales have been hurt by higher fuel
costs and new environmental taxes on larger engines, in addition to
the overall market decline.
The cuts are in addition to 3,000 voluntary departures Peugeot
announced in February, after cutting 8,200 French jobs in 2007 and
2,100 elsewhere in Europe.
Peugeot fell as much as 62 cents, or 4.7 percent, to 12.71 euros in
Paris trading, the fifth straight daily decline, and was down 3.8
percent as of 10:17 a.m.
To contact the reporter on this story: Laurence Frost in Paris at
lfr...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: November 20, 2008 04:17 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lying american hating conservatives caught lying again:Toyota Motor
Corp. said Wednesday it will reduce production in the United States to
cope with slowing sales in the world's largest economy
http://www.startribune.com/local/34732514.html?elr=KArksUUUU
Toyota to reduce output, trim temporary workers in US amid slowing
sales
Associated Press
Last update: November 19, 2008 - 5:49 AM
TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it will reduce production in
the United States to cope with slowing sales in the world's largest
economy.
Toyota will stop production at all its plants in the U.S. and Canada
for two extra days in addition to the regular Christmas holidays next
month, and cut about half of 500 temporary workers at a plant in
Georgetown, Kentucky by March, company spokeswoman Kayo Doi said.
Beginning January, Japan's top automaker plans to reduce production of
the Sienna minivan at its Indiana plant, and slow a line for the Camry
and Avalon sedans at the Kentucky plant, Doi said.
At New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. in Fremont, California — its
joint venture with General Motors Corp. — Toyota will eliminate a
shift producing the Tacoma pickup truck.
The production cuts are the latest effort by the company to deal with
shrinking demand in the U.S., which is expected to slip into recession
this year.
Earlier this month, Toyota said net profit for the July-September
quarter plunged 69 percent and downgraded its full-year profit
forecast to about a third of last year's result. Officials said the
company is also assessing its manufacturing operations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lying american hating conservatives caught in a lie again:Honda,
Japan's second-largest carmaker, retreated 4.8 percent to 1,814 yen
after it said yesterday it will trim production at U.S. plants by
18,000 more cars, bringing total cuts to 50,000 units since August
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSLyxXcu.ua0&refer=home
Asian Stocks Fall for 5th Day as Recession Deepens; Honda Drops
By Kyung Bok Cho and Shani Raja
Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Asian stocks fell for the fifth day after oil
plunged below $50, Taiwan and Singapore forecast further contractions,
and U.S. unemployment claims approached a 26-year high as the global
slowdown deepens.
Woodside Petroleum Ltd., Australia's No. 2 oil producer, slumped 7.2
percent as crude declined to its lowest since May 2005. Canon Inc. and
Nintendo Co., which get at least three- quarters of their sales from
overseas markets, slid more than 4 percent. Honda Motor Co., earning
more than half its sales in North America, dropped 4.8 percent after
saying it will cut production there further.
``Markets are progressively pricing in a deeper and more prolonged
recession,'' said Prasad Patkar, who helps manage about $800 million
at Platypus Asset Management in Sydney. ``A depression is too ugly to
contemplate. It's an ultra-low probability, but not zero
probability.''
The MSCI Asia Pacific Index slumped 1.8 percent to 73.81 at 10:22 a.m.
in Tokyo, set for its lowest close since Aug. 19, 2003. The gauge is
set to lose 11 percent this week, the second-biggest weekly decline on
record.
The index has plunged 53 percent in 2008 as global financial
companies' losses and writedowns from the collapse of the U.S.
subprime-mortgage market passed $950 billion. Rallies have fizzled --
most recently a 25 percent gain posted in the seven trading days
following Oct. 27 -- as the economies of the U.S., Japan and the euro-
zone enter recession.
Japan's Nikkei 225 Stock Average lost 2.8 percent to 7,487.09. The
Bank of Japan will conclude its policy meeting today, with interest
rates expected to remain unchanged.
Benchmark indexes in Taiwan and Singapore lost more than 2 percent
after the nations said their economies will contract as exports
decline.
Resources Fall
South Korea's Kospi index was on course for its longest losing streak
since September 2000 as it fell for the ninth day. KB Financial Group
Inc. led declines after UBS AG said the economy will shrink 3 percent
next year, compared with a previous forecast for an expansion.
U.S. stocks tumbled yesterday, with the Standard & Poor's 500 Index
dropping 6.7 percent to its lowest in 11 years, as economic data
pointed to a worsening recession and lawmakers postponed a vote on a
plan to salvage the auto industry. Futures on the S&P 500 advanced 0.9
percent.
Woodside dropped 7.2 percent to A$28.43. Crude oil for December
delivery plunged 8.7 percent to $49.42 a barrel in New York and
touched $48.55 in after-hours trading, the lowest since May 2005.
Futures have dropped 67 percent since reaching a record $147.27 on
July 11.
Rio Tinto Group, the world's third-largest mining company, slipped 4
percent to A$54.99. A measure of six metals traded on the London Metal
Exchange, including copper and zinc, slipped 3.5 percent to the lowest
since July 2005.
Evidence of Recession
Contract iron ore prices, at a record after six years of gains, may
decline as much as 20 percent next year as demand in China stalls and
cash prices slump, Standard Chartered Plc said in a report.
Canon, the world's biggest camera maker, declined 4 percent to 2,505
yen in Tokyo. Nintendo, the largest maker of handheld video-game
consoles, fell 4.1 percent to 25,900 won in Osaka.
U.S. government data yesterday showed initial jobless claims climbed
to a higher-than-forecast 542,000 in the week ended Nov. 15, while the
Conference Board's index of leading economic indicators fell for a
third time in four months. Manufacturing in the Philadelphia area
shrank in November at the fastest pace in 18 years, according to an
index tracked by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia.
Taiwan, Singapore
Taiwan's economy will sink into a recession this year after exports
slumped, following its first contraction since 2003, the government
said yesterday. Singapore, which is already in recession, today
lowered its growth forecast for a fourth time this year and said the
economy may contract in 2009.
Cathay Financial Holding Co., Taiwan's largest listed financial-
services company, dropped 3.7 percent to NT$28.90. Jardine Matheson
Holdings Ltd., which owns office buildings, supermarkets and hotels
across Asia, lost 5.6 percent to S$17.46 in Singapore.
Falling demand has forced companies to reduce production or cut
prices. Honda, Japan's second-largest carmaker, retreated 4.8 percent
to 1,814 yen after it said yesterday it will trim production at U.S.
plants by 18,000 more cars, bringing total cuts to 50,000 units since
August.
KB, owner of South Korea's biggest bank, tumbled 9.2 percent to 22,300
won. The stock is set to lose 31 percent this week. Daewoo Engineering
& Construction Co., the nation's biggest builder, retreated 6.3
percent to 7,160 won.
`Credit Bubble'
``Korea's credit bubble is popping at the seams even as policymakers
now attempt to shore up the system,'' Duncan Wooldridge, UBS's chief
Asia economist in Hong Kong, wrote in a note yesterday. Slowing
exports, rising unemployment and expanding household debt are risks to
the economy, he said.
Orix Corp., a Japanese financial services provider, fell 15 percent to
5,240 yen, the lowest since April 2003. The company said yesterday it
will sell 150 billion yen ($1.6 billion) in convertible bonds to pay
back debt.
To contact the reporter for this story: Kyung Bok Cho in Seoul at
kc...@bloomberg.net; Shani Raja in Sydney at sra...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 20, 2008 20:42 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lying american hating conservatives, caught in a lie again:Japanese
carmakers are cutting jobs and output as sales decline, nissan,
Daihatsu Motor Co. Japan's largest minicar-maker, and mazda are now
all being affected
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aab4TEVjPWKg
Nissan Leads Car Shares Lower on U.S. Economy Outlook (Update2)
By Makiko Kitamura
Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Nissan Motor Co., Japan's third- largest
carmaker, led auto shares lower in Tokyo after U.S. unemployment
claims surged to the highest since 1992, worsening the outlook for
exports.
Nissan dropped as much as 24 yen, or 7.3 percent, the most in two
weeks, to 303 yen, and traded at 309 yen as of 10:13 a.m. The shares
have plunged 75 percent this year. Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's biggest
carmaker, fell 2.4 percent to 2,875 yen, and Honda Motor Co., the
second-largest, declined 4.6 percent to 1,818 yen.
Japan's three biggest carmakers traditionally earn at least half of
their operating profit in the U.S., the world's largest auto market.
Industrywide car sales are headed for the worst year since 1991 as
banks cut back on lending and unemployment rises.
``It doesn't look like car sales will improve as the economy is
getting worse,'' said Mitsuo Shimizu, a market analyst at Cosmo
Securities Co. in Tokyo.
``Drowning in Debt''
Initial jobless claims climbed to a higher-than-forecast 542,000 in
the week ended Nov. 15, the Labor Department said yesterday in
Washington. The Conference Board's index of leading economic
indicators declined 0.8 percent, and a measure of manufacturing in the
Philadelphia region fell to an 18-year low.
Bank of America Corp. Chief Executive Officer Kenneth Lewis, who heads
the biggest U.S. retail bank, said yesterday the nation is ``drowning
in debt.''
A stronger yen is also eroding the value of the carmakers' overseas
sales. Japan's currency headed for a third weekly gain against the
dollar, trading at 94.16 yen against the U.S. currency.
Japanese carmakers are cutting jobs and output as sales decline. Honda
said yesterday it is trimming production plans at U.S. factories by an
additional 18,000 units. Honda has cut a total of 50,000 units from
its U.S. plans since August.
Daihatsu Motor Co. Japan's largest minicar-maker, fell as much as 7
percent. Mazda Motor Corp. fell as much as 6.8 percent.
To contact the reporter on this story: Makiko Kitamura in Tokyo at
mkita...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 20, 2008 20:47 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lying american hating conservatives, have been caught in a lie
again:Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's biggest carmaker, will cut its
domestic temporary workforce by 50 percent as vehicle demand slumps
globally
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYTDkEfkwqg4&refer=home
Toyota Will Cut 3,000 Jobs in Japan as Car Sales Fall (Update3)
By Makiko Kitamura
Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's biggest carmaker,
will cut its domestic temporary workforce by 50 percent as vehicle
demand slumps globally.
Toyota will cut the number of temporary workers to 3,000 from 6,000 by
the end of March, spokesman Paul Nolasco said today in a phone
interview.
The automaker follows Mazda Motor Corp. and Isuzu Motors Ltd., which
yesterday said they would slash a combined 2,700 temporary jobs in
Japan in response to slowing sales. Earlier this month, Toyota
forecast a 68 percent drop in full-year net income, the biggest
decline in at least 18 years, as a global recession cripples auto
demand.
``Falling export demand is having a big impact on production in
Japan,'' said Hirofumi Yokoi, a Tokyo-based analyst at automotive
consulting company CSM Worldwide. ``It's unlikely plants will get shut
down, but if things get worse, lines, shifts will have to be stopped
and plans for new factories will be delayed.''
Japanese companies, which focused on hiring easy-to-fire contract
workers during the 15 years of lackluster economic growth that
followed the bursting of the bubble economy in 1990, are now shedding
them as the global recession cuts demand. Temporary and part-time
workers make up 33 percent of Japan's workforce, up from 20 percent in
1991, according to the Labor Ministry.
Honda, Nissan
Honda Motor Co., Japan's second-largest carmaker, also said today it
is cutting 270 temporary workers at its Saitama plant, where the
carmaker is reducing output of Accord sedans by 40,000 units. Honda is
also cutting production in the U.K. of Civic compacts and CR-V sport-
utility vehicles by 21,000 units.
Nissan Motor Co. said last week it will reduce its domestic production
by an additional 72,000 units. Japan's third-largest automaker had its
credit rating cut one notch today by Fitch Ratings, which cited the
company's dependence on the weak U.S. auto market and an appreciation
of the yen.
Toyota gained 4.6 percent to 3,080 yen at the close of trading today
in Tokyo. The shares have dropped 49 percent this year, set for the
worst annual performance since at least 1975.
Credit Crunch
The credit crunch has crippled U.S. vehicle sales, forcing General
Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC to seek a combined $25
billion in U.S. government loans as they burn through cash. U.S.
unemployment claims for the week ended Nov. 15 surged to the highest
since 1992 as Americans filed 542,000 initial jobless claims.
Japan's exports declined at the fastest pace in almost seven years in
October, and Toyota's U.S. sales plunged 23 percent last month.
Toyota, heading for its first drop in U.S. sales in 13 years, will
extend the Christmas-New Year closure at its U.S. and Canadian plants
by two days. The carmaker will also cut Sienna minivan output in
Indiana by half in January and slow one of two Georgetown, Kentucky,
factory lines.
While no full-time employees will be laid off, the company will
eliminate at least 50 percent of its 500 temporary workers at the
Georgetown plant during the first three months of 2009.
To contact the reporter on this story: Makiko Kitamura in Tokyo at
mkita...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 21, 2008 03:26 ESt
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
talk.politics.misc, alt.politics.liberalism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
alt.politics.economics, alt.politics
lying american hating conservative caught lying again, the worlds
automakers are all in trouble. the reason why american companies are
in worse shape, is that the economic panic started here first.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=akcQFqTVeTxk
Honda Scraps Detroit Press Events to Promote Vehicles (Update1)
By Alan Ohnsman
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co., Japan’s second- largest
carmaker, said it won’t hold press conferences to promote new models
at the Detroit auto show in January as the U.S. industry struggles to
survive.
“We’re not going to be doing ‘traditional’ product unveilings in
Detroit,” Kurt Antonius, a spokesman for the Tokyo-based company’s
U.S. unit, said in an interview today. Honda will still display its
latest cars and trucks, he said.
Honda’s move makes it the biggest automaker to pare its plans for the
North American International Auto Show, the main U.S. forum for new
vehicles. Nissan Motor Co., No. 3 in Japan, said yesterday it’s
conserving funds by skipping Detroit in January and the Chicago show
in February.
The Asian brands are mired in the industrywide slump that cut U.S.
auto sales by 15 percent through October. U.S. automakers led by
General Motors Corp. are seeking $25 billion in federal loans to help
stave off a financial collapse.
Mitsubishi Motors Corp., Japan’s fifth-largest automaker, said last
week it wouldn’t attend the Detroit show, following similar decisions
by Suzuki Motor Corp., Ferrari SpA, Land Rover and Bayerische Motoren
Werke AG’s Rolls-Royce. Porsche SE abandoned Detroit in 2007.
Toyota Motor Corp., Japan’s largest automaker, isn’t changing its
plans to unveil new Toyota and Lexus models in Detroit, said Mike
Michels, a spokesman. Hyundai Motor Co., Kia Motors Corp. and Mazda
Motor Corp. all said today they still plan to attend the Detroit show.
Honda and Tokyo-based Nissan ranked fifth and sixth, respectively, in
U.S. sales through last month, behind GM, Toyota, Ford Motor Co. and
Chrysler LLC.
Press previews for the Detroit show run Jan. 13 through Jan. 15.
Honda’s U.S. operations are based in Torrance, California.
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at
aohn...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: November 25, 2008 16:06 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alpH1eJ8IE9o&refer=home
Toyota Rating Cut to AA by Fitch, Outlook Negative (Update1)
Email | Print | A A A
By Makiko Kitamura
Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp.'s debt rating was cut by
Fitch Ratings, the first such downgrade in 10 years, as the U.S. auto
slump damps earnings at the carmaker with the industry's best credit.
Fitch cut Toyota's senior unsecured debt rating to AA from AAA with a
negative outlook on the company, it said in a report today.
A lower debt rating raises borrowing costs for Toyota, potentially
hindering its ability to offer interest-free loans to boost sales in
the U.S. The automaker slashed its profit forecast 56 percent earlier
this month after higher fuel costs and the credit crunch pushed
industrywide October U.S. sales to the lowest level since 1983.
``Toyota is suffering severely from the ongoing turmoil in the global
automotive sector,'' said Tatsuya Mizuno, director at Fitch Ratings,
in the report. ``The negative developments in the industry are so
substantial and fundamental that even the strongest player -- Toyota
-- can no longer support a `AAA' rating.''
The rating cut is the company's first since Moody's Investors Service
reduced its long-term debt rating from Aaa to Aa1 in 1998. Moody's
raised the company back up to Aaa in 2003. Standard & Poor's has rated
the carmaker AAA since 1985.
Toyota fell 4.2 percent to 3,000 yen today in Tokyo. The stock has
dropped 50 percent this year, set for the worst annual performance
since at least 1975.
To contact the reporter on this story: Makiko Kitamura in Tokyo at
mkita...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 25, 2008 20:24 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=at1f6F88JpSk
Porsche Sales Fall on Recession; VW Deal Faces Delay (Update1)
Email | Print | A A A
By Andreas Cremer
Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Porsche SE reported a 15 percent drop in four-
month sales and said it may delay taking control of Volkswagen AG as
the credit crisis and global recession shatter demand for its iconic
911 sports car.
Revenue in the period through November may drop to “slightly above 2
billion euros” ($2.6 billion), Porsche said today at a briefing in
Stuttgart, Germany, where the company is based. Year-earlier sales
amounted to 2.36 billion euros.
Chief Executive Officer Wendelin Wiedeking said Porsche may no longer
take 50 percent ownership of Volkswagen this year as the global
economy contracts. Porsche, which posted a record 6.39 billion-euro
profit in the 12 months through July, will halt production at its main
plant for seven days between now and the end of January after U.S.
deliveries fell 50 percent in October, including a 40 percent decline
in sales of the 911.
“Signs of a severe slump in demand in the global automobile industry
are highly visible,” Wiedeking said. “Porsche cannot escape this
overall downward trend.” While it’s “increasingly unlikely” that the
VW stake will surpass 50 percent this year, the company will take
control “as quickly as possible” and is committed to owning 75 percent
by the end of 2009, he said.
Porsche was trading up 2.66 euros, or 5 percent, at 55.43 euros as of
10:25 in Frankfurt. Delays to the Volkswagen takeover may boost the
company’s cash position by allowing it to realize gains on share
options. Porsche said last month it owned 42.6 percent of Wolfsburg,
Germany-based VW, Europe’s biggest carmaker, and had options
equivalent to a further 31.5 percent.
Capital Gains
“They are changing the view from one month to another so it is very
difficult to assess what they will do and when,” said Olivier Pouteau,
a Paris-based analyst at Oddo & Cie. with an “add” rating on Porsche.
“Porsche is still sitting on very important capital gains stemming
from their options, and they are indicating they will prioritize
what’s economically viable for the company in their strategy with
Volkswagen.”
The drop in four-month revenue threatens the first fall in Porsche’s
annual sales since 1993. CEO Wiedeking declined to give a forecast for
full-year profit, saying that to do so would be “grossly careless” and
“too unreliable.”
Deliveries through November probably fell 18 percent to 25,200
vehicles and there may be a “noticeable decline” in the full-year
figure from the 98,652 vehicles handed over last fiscal year, the
company said. The future development of business in the U.S. -- the
biggest market for the 911 --“can hardly be reliably calculated,” it
said.
U.S. Slide
Porsche’s U.S. operation last month sold only 584 911s, including the
$190,000 GT2 model that can exceed 200 miles (320 kilometers) per
hour. Deliveries of the less-costly Boxster, including the Cayman
coupe, fell 78 percent to 153 units and the Cayenne SUV recorded 690
sales, down 42 percent.
Chief Financial Officer Holger Haerter said Porsche isn’t prepared to
buy Volkswagen shares at “economically absurd prices.” To do so would
create “considerable risks” for possible cost deductions and inflict
an “unforeseeable burden” on Porsche’s earnings, he said.
VW, which traded little changed at 256.03 euros today, is valued in
Porsche’s books at 117 euros a share and the company could “live” with
a price of 200 euros, the CFO said.
Wiedeking said Porsche’s own share price, down 60 percent this year,
does not fairly reflect the company’s prospects nor the value of the
holding in Volkswagen. He called previous declines in the stock
“incomprehensible.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Andreas Cremer in Stuttgart,
Germany at acr...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 26, 2008 06:36 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey stupid conservatives and libertarians:Toyota, Nissan Lead Biggest
Drop in Japan Car Sales in 34 Years, so lets blame the U.A.W.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aAA6mmucumTA
Toyota, Nissan Lead Biggest Drop in Japan Car Sales in 34 Years
By Makiko Kitamura
Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. led the
biggest drop Japan's auto sales in 34 years as the country's recession
cut wages.
Sales of cars, trucks and buses, excluding minicars, fell 27 percent
to 215,783 vehicles in November, the Tokyo-based Japan Automobile
Dealers Association said in a statement today. Toyota Motor Corp.,
Japan's largest automaker, sold 106,342 vehicles excluding the Lexus
brand, down 28 percent. Sales at Nissan Motor Co., the country's third-
biggest, fell 30 percent to 30,134.
Japan's automakers have slashed their earnings forecasts for this
fiscal year as declining wages and tight credit curb consumer
spending. Wages in the world's second-largest economy dropped for the
first time this year in October as companies cut overtime payments by
the most in more than six years.
``If income and wealth don't rise, consumption won't either,'' said
Mitsuo Shimizu, a Tokyo-based analyst at Cosmo Securities Co. ``Large
purchases like cars are particularly vulnerable.''
Prime Minister Taro Aso announced a 5 trillion yen ($52.5 billion)
stimulus package in October to boost consumer spending and the Bank of
Japan cut the benchmark rate to 0.3 percent to encourage lending.
``The financial crisis is exacerbating already low consumer
sentiment,'' JADA said in a statement, adding that car sales for the
year may be the lowest since 1974.
Toyota shares lost 1.8 percent to 2,945 yen at the close of trading in
Tokyo. Nissan slumped 2.8 percent and Honda Motor Co. declined 2.9
percent.
Firing Workers
Honda's sales dropped 22 percent to 29,448 vehicles last month. Mazda
Motor Corp.'s fell 33 percent to 9,699 vehicles.
Japanese companies plan to fire about 30,000 temporary and part-time
workers before the end of the business year in March, the Labor
Ministry said last week. Toyota will cut its domestic temporary
workforce by 3,000 jobs, or 50 percent, by the end of March.
Monthly wages, including overtime and bonuses, fell 0.1 percent to
274,751 yen ($2,876) from a year earlier, the Labor Ministry said in
Tokyo today.
Credit is also tightening. Three-month commercial-paper rates for
Japanese companies with the highest credit rankings were at 1.2
percent, compared with a 0.49 percent yield on similar-duration
government bills, according to Tokyo Tanshi Co.
The drop in domestic demand echoes a sales slump in the U.S., the most
profitable market for Japan's carmakers. In October, Toyota's sales in
the world's largest car market dropped 23 percent. Nissan's plunged 33
percent and Honda has a 25 percent drop.
To contact the reporter on this story: Makiko Kitamura in Tokyo at
mkita...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 1, 2008 01:02 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey stupid libertarians and conservatives:Hyundai, Kia Fall After
Korean Carmakers' Sales Slump:time to blame the U.A.W.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aLL.megKH54g&refer=home
Hyundai, Kia Fall After Korean Carmakers' Sales Slump (Update1)
By Seonjin Cha
Dec. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Hyundai Motor Co. and Kia Motors Corp. South
Korea's two-largest automakers, fell in Seoul trading after
industrywide domestic sales slumped to the lowest in more than three
years in November.
Hyundai fell as much as 8.3 percent to 37,600 won and traded 6.6
percent lower at 38,300 won as of 9:16 a.m. in Seoul trading, compared
with Kospi index's 4.1 percent decline. Kia, an affiliate of Hyundai,
dropped 7.7 percent to 6,250 won.
Hyundai, Kia and three other South Korean automakers sold 74,217
vehicles domestically last month, the lowest monthly tally since
February 2005, as banks reduced car loans. Including exports, November
sales at the five carmakers declined 8.6 percent from a year earlier,
according to companies' data.
``It's not going to get any better,'' Choi Dae Sik, a Seoul-based
analyst at HI Investment & Securities Co. wrote in a report today.
``Domestic sales next year will likely fall to the lowest since the
1998 Asian financial crisis and exports may also fall further.''
South Korean carmakers are cutting output in response to the drop in
demand. Hyundai will slash production by 20,000 vehicles this month,
about 13 percent of its monthly domestic output, company spokesman
Jake Jang said yesterday.
Renault Samsung Motors Co., a South Korean unit of Renault SA, will
shut down its plant for five working days from Dec. 24 for maintenance
work. Ssangyong Motor Co. is also reviewing a plan to close plants
from Dec. 17 until the end of the month after it decided to cut
benefits to employees temporarily and lower executive salaries, the
carmakers said yesterday. GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co., a unit of
General Motors Corp., is idling its domestic factory for as long as a
month starting December.
Ssangyong, 51 percent owned by China's SAIC Motor Corp., slid 6.4
percent to 955 won.
To contact the reporter on this story: Seonjin Cha in Seoul at
sc...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 1, 2008 19:32 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toyota, said sales fell 32%, nissa down 43%, honda down 32%, all
mirroring american car companies, time for the incredibly stupid
conservatives and libertarians to blame the U.A.W.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYhbnZcipFb4&refer=home
GM, Ford, Toyota Say U.S. Sales Tumbled on Recession (Update3)
By Bill Koenig and Alan Ohnsman
Dec. 2 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., Toyota
Motor Corp. and Chrysler LLC said November U.S. sales tumbled more
than 30 percent as the recession and Detroit automakers’ aid pleas
kept buyers away from showrooms.
Toyota’s 34 percent plunge was the most for Asia’s biggest automaker
since at least 1987, while Chrysler’s total fell almost in half to its
lowest in 14 years of Bloomberg data. GM dropped 41 percent, and Ford
declined 31 percent.
The results showed the strain of the deepening economic slowdown and
the announcement last month by GM, the largest U.S. automaker, that it
might not have enough cash to last through the year. GM, Ford and
Chrysler were presenting plans to Congress today for $25 billion in
federal loans.
“When you think of the psyche of the American consumer right now, it’s
bad,” said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with IHS Global Insight in
Lexington, Massachusetts. “And until we start seeing some help from
the economy we are going to keep seeing months like this.”
November’s totals may have pushed the U.S. industry to its 13th
straight monthly drop, the longest slide in 17 years.
Ford expects the seasonally adjusted annual sales rate for the month
to be lower than October’s 10.6 million, the company’s marketing
chief, Jim Farley, said on a conference call. Analysts and economists
surveyed by Bloomberg had projected a November rate of 11 million.
Annual U.S. sales this decade had averaged 16.8 million before this
year.
GM, Ford
GM’s sales of cars and light trucks collapsed to 153,404 vehicles.
Deliveries fell for each of GM’s eight divisions, including a 64
percent decline for the Hummer sport-utility vehicle unit that the
Detroit-based automaker is seeking to sell. The top- selling Silverado
pickup lost 23 percent of its sales from a year earlier.
GM disclosed a preliminary plan for cutting first-quarter North
American output by 32 percent to 600,000 vehicles, while Ford said it
would slash production in the region by 38 percent to 430,000.
Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford didn’t change its fourth-quarter
production plan of 430,000 vehicles.
Ford’s sales total plummeted to 123,222 units, with sales falling at
all four U.S. brands. The biggest decline was 46 percent for Volvo,
which Ford is considering selling.
Toyota, Honda
At Toyota, only the new Sequoia and Lexus LX SUVs recorded sales
gains, with every other model across the Toyota, Lexus and Scion line
falling as deliveries slid to 130,307. Honda Motor Co., Japan’s second-
largest automaker after Toyota, said sales fell 32 percent to 76,233
vehicles, the lowest monthly tally since 2000.
Nissan Motor Co., Japan’s third-largest automaker, said it sold 46,605
new vehicles, down 42 percent.
Chrysler, based in Auburn Hills, Michigan, said sales slid 47 percent
to 85,260 cars and trucks. That was the lowest total since 1994, based
on the earliest available Bloomberg data.
U.S. automakers probably held 47 percent of their home market,
automotive-research firm Edmunds.com in Santa Monica, California, said
in a Nov. 24 report. That figure would match their share in October,
according to Autodata Corp. of Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey.
Economic Weakness
The industry is struggling against a decline in U.S. personal spending
in October of 1 percent, the most since the 2001 contraction. The drop
in purchases followed a 0.3 percent retreat in September, the Commerce
Department said Nov. 26.
Consumer sentiment improved in November, with the Conference Board’s
confidence index rising to 44.9 from a record low 38.8 the prior
month, the private New York-based research group said Nov. 25.
U.S. economic weakness provided the backdrop for GM’s Nov. 7
announcement that it would run out of cash by the end of the year
without government aid. Less than two weeks later, Ford Chief
Executive Officer Alan Mulally and Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli told
Congress that a GM failure would ripple through the supply chain and
cripple all automakers.
Automakers may not get a lift from an economic recovery any time soon,
with Ford predicting that industrywide sales will keep declining
through 2009’s first half.
‘Truth Point’
The first quarter will be a “truth point,” marketing chief Farley said
on the conference call.
“If you are any kind of astute business person, you plan for it to get
worse,” said Lindland, the IHS Global Insight analyst. “There just
isn’t any relief in sight and that is depressing.”
Automakers sought to temper the November slump with “record high”
incentives, said Jesse Toprak, director of industry analysis for
Edmunds.com.
They also benefited from “remarkably lower gas prices,” Toprak said.
Gasoline at U.S. pumps averaged $2.11 a gallon last month, compared
with $3.52 through the first 10 months, according to motoring group
AAA.
Ford began offering employee pricing for all buyers on Nov. 19 for
almost all its 2008 and 2009 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands. GM
started a “Red Tag” promotion almost 10 days early this year, on Nov.
15, where prices include all cash-back incentives.
Chrysler promised $6,000 cash back on its 2008 300C sedan and Toyota
City, Japan-based Toyota is offering no-interest loans on more than
half its models.
To contact the reporters on this story: Bill Koenig in Southfield,
Michigan, at wko...@bloomberg.net; Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at
aohn...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 2, 2008 16:09 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hyundai Motor Co. sales slid 35%, sales of toyotas hybrid Prius was
off 48 percent, Kia Motors Corp posted a 37% decline, hey stupid
conservatives and libertarians, time to blame the U.A.W., oops, but
the U.A.W. does not represent asian automakers, so why are the asians
having as MUCH trouble as the american automakers are, idiots, its the
economy stupids
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSV3RjQXwyqU&refer=home
Toyota, Honda Sales Fall as Recession Tops Incentives (Update2)
By Alan Ohnsman and Bill Koenig
Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan
Motor Co., Japan's three biggest automakers, said November U.S. sales
tumbled more than 30 percent as incentives failed to lure buyers to
showrooms in a deepening recession.
Toyota's 34 percent plunge was the most for Asia's biggest automaker
since at least 1980, while Honda fell 32 percent and Nissan plunged 42
percent. Combined sales for Asia-based brands including Hyundai Motor
Co. slid 35 percent.
``We've probably reached a point where no vehicle is immune from the
ravages of the market,'' said Mike Robinet, an analyst at CSM
Worldwide Inc. in Northville, Michigan. ``The consumer is not in a
very jovial mood when it comes to opening their pocketbooks.''
The loss of 1.2 million jobs in the U.S. so far this year helped drive
down November industrywide sales to the lowest annual rate in 26
years. The slump forced General Motors Corp., the largest U.S.
carmaker, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC to seek $34 billion in loans
from Congress yesterday.
November's totals pushed the U.S. industry to a 13th straight monthly
drop, the longest slide in 17 years. Toyota expects 2008 industrywide
sales to be 13.2 million, down from 16.1 million in 2007, said Bob
Carter, vice president of U.S. Toyota division sales.
Toyota
Models such as Honda's Fit and Toyota's Prius succumbed to the slump
after selling for months at or above list prices without incentives.
Sales of the Fit subcompact fell 8.4 percent, and the hybrid Prius was
off 48 percent.
``This is the worst month for the combined Japanese brands'' since
1991, said Jesse Toprak, director of industry analysis for automotive-
research firm Edmunds.com in Santa Monica, California.
At Toyota City, Japan-based Toyota, only the new Sequoia and Lexus LX
SUVs recorded sales gains, with every other model across the Toyota,
Lexus and Scion lines falling. Deliveries dropped to 130,307.
No-interest loan offers will continue on most Toyota brand models
through December, a program that started in October, the company said
yesterday.
That helped boost Toyota's incentives to an average of $1,908 per
vehicle, a level Toprak said was the ``highest ever'' for the
automaker.
`Diminishing Returns'
``At this point, in terms of incentive programs, we've reached a point
of diminishing returns,'' Toprak said. ``Consumers are not responding
to them right now.''
Toyota's U.S. market share was 17.4 percent last month, up from 16.7
percent a year earlier, according to Autodata Corp. of Woodcliff Lake,
New Jersey.
Toyota shares fell 1.8 percent to 2,775 yen as of the 11 a.m. break in
Tokyo Stock Exchange trading. Honda fell 5.5 percent to 1,782 yen and
Nissan rose 1.3 percent to 306 yen. Hyundai fell 1.8 percent to 37,950
won in Seoul.
Honda, Japan's second-largest automaker after Toyota, said sales fell
32 percent to 76,233 vehicles, the company's lowest monthly tally
since 2000 and biggest percentage drop since 1981.
While Toyota and Nissan have added no-interest loans to spur sales,
Honda, which typically spends the least on incentives to maintain
resale values, is offering interest rates as low as 1.9 percent. Sage
Marie, a spokesman for Honda's U.S. unit, declined to say whether the
Tokyo-based company planned any additional initiatives to spur sales.
``We're doing what we can to generate interest and traffic in a very
challenging market,'' Marie said. ``Showroom traffic is a critical
element for sales, and obviously fewer people are coming in right
now.''
Market Share
Honda's market share was 10.2 percent, up 0.8 point from a year ago.
Nissan, Japan's third-largest automaker, sold 46,605 new vehicles,
down 42 percent. Katherine Zachary, a spokeswoman for the company's
U.S. unit, couldn't immediately confirm when sales last fell that
much.
Market share for Japanese and Korean makers was 43.4 percent for the
month, up from 42 percent a year ago, Autodata said.
Hyundai, South Korea's largest automaker, said sales dropped 40
percent in November to 19,221. Kia Motors Corp., Hyundai's affiliate,
posted a 37 percent decline.
``We initially thought the light at the end of the tunnel would be
getting closer as we neared the end of the year, but every sale
continues to be a struggle,'' Jim O'Sullivan, Mazda Motor Corp.'s
North American chief executive officer, said in a statement. Sales for
the Ford affiliate fell 31 percent.
Subaru, Suzuki
Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.'s Subaru said sales fell 7.8 percent, the
smallest drop among Asia-based brands. Fuji Heavy is 16.5 percent
owned by Toyota. Mitsubishi Motors Corp.'s sales fell 36 percent and
Suzuki Motor Corp. reported a 46 percent decline. Japanese truckmaker
Isuzu Motors Ltd., which is ending U.S. passenger vehicle sales in
January, had a 74 percent drop.
The industry is struggling against a decline in U.S. personal spending
in October of 1 percent, the most since the 2001 contraction. The drop
in purchases followed a 0.3 percent retreat in September, the Commerce
Department said Nov. 26.
Consumer sentiment improved in November, with the Conference Board's
confidence index rising to 44.9 from a record low 38.8 the prior
month, the private New York-based research group said Nov. 25.
To contact the reporters on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at
aohn...@bloomberg.net; Bill Koenig in Southfield, Michigan, at
wko...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 2, 2008 22:11 EST
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honda's vehicle sales in the U.S., the company's most profitable
market, plunged 32 percent , Honda Will Detail F-1 Racing Future Amid
Quit Reports to conserve cash, time to blame the U.A.W.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=at24Lm5ZGa5A
By Naoko Fujimura and Dan Baynes
Dec. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co. will make an announcement on its
future in Formula One today amid reports Japan's second-largest
automaker has quit the most-watched motor sport.
President Takeo Fukui will brief the press at 1:30 p.m. in Tokyo today
following a Sky News report Honda Racing's 750 workers were told at a
U.K. meeting that the team would be shut down if a buyer couldn't be
found. The Nikkei reported the company will withdraw from the racing
at the end of this season. Honda spokeswoman Yasuko Matsuura declined
to say whether the company will quit.
Honda slashed its profit forecast 13 percent in October as the
recession in the U.S. cripples car demand, forcing the Tokyo-based
company to cut both jobs and production. Max Mosley, president of F-1
ruling body the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile, has said
the $1.6 billion teams spend annually on the sport is
``unsustainable.''
``A withdrawal by Honda would highlight just how awful the situation
surrounding the auto industry is,'' Koji Endo, an analyst at Credit
Suisse in Tokyo. ``Other teams may follow, and the F-1 may not be held
in the future.''
Honda's vehicle sales in the U.S., the company's most profitable
market, plunged 32 percent in November, the most since 1981, as the
economic slowdown and the weak consumer sentiment hurt demand for
Civic models.
The company gained 0.2 percent to 1,689 yen as of 11 a.m. in Tokyo.
The stock has dropped 55 percent this year, set for the worst annual
performance since at least 1975.
Cost Savings
Abandoning the sport would save Honda at least 10 billion yen ($108
million) a year, according to Credit Suisse's Endo. Honda finished
eighth and ninth the past two seasons. Jenson Button and Rubens
Barrichello are the team's current drivers. Ross Brawn, the former
Ferrari technical director who helped Michael Schumacher win a record
seven driving titles, was hired to run Honda 13 months ago.
Its withdrawal would leave the sport, dominated by carmakers including
Fiat SpA, Renault SA and Toyota Motor Corp., with nine teams and 18
cars if a buyer can't be found. The 2009 season-opening Australian
Grand Prix is scheduled March 29.
The last team to quit Formula One was Honda-backed Super Aguri, which
folded in May because of a lack of funding.
Sex, Spying
Earlier this year, F-1 was rocked by the distribution of a sex video
involving FIA President Mosley which led to some carmakers voting for
his removal. In 2007, McLaren was kicked out of the constructors'
championship and fined $100 million after its chief designer, Mike
Coughlan, was found in possession of 780 pages of technical documents
belonging to Ferrari.
Honda expects operating profit of 550 billion yen for the 12 months
ending March, the lowest in eight years. The carmaker cut its forecast
as the yen's 39 percent gain against the dollar squeezes its profit.
Every 1 yen gain against the dollar cuts Honda's annual operating
profit by 18 billion yen, according to the company.
The company yesterday said it plans to offer early retirement for
workers at its factory in the U.K. and will cut 490 additional
temporary jobs in Japan, as demand slumps in overseas markets.
Honda, led by founder Soichiro Honda, owned a Formula One team as
early as 1964, even before it began making cars in 1967.
It returned to F-1 in the 1980s as an engine supplier, then in 2004
purchased a stake in the BAR team from British American Tobacco, which
it bought out a year later to form the Honda team for the 2006 season.
To contact the reporters on this story: Dan Baynes in Sydney at
dba...@bloomberg.net; Naoko Fujimura in Tokyo at
nfuj...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 4, 2008 21:52 EST
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
second european country coming to the aid of their auto industry, time
for the stupid conservative/libertarians to blame the U.A.W.: PSA
Peugeot Citroen and Renault SA, France’s biggest carmakers, were asked
by the government to avoid plant closures in exchange for subsidies to
boost car sales, Le Monde reported today
conservatives and libertarians are god awful stupid inbred hill
Billy's.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aBw4Yvr35HyA
Peugeot, Renault Offered Subsidy to Boost Sales, Le Monde Says
By Laurence Frost
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- PSA Peugeot Citroen and Renault SA, France’s
biggest carmakers, were asked by the government to avoid plant
closures in exchange for subsidies to boost car sales, Le Monde
reported today.
While Renault repeated Dec. 4 that there was “no question” of closing
French factories, Peugeot has resisted giving such a clear commitment,
the daily newspaper reported on its Web site, citing an unnamed
government official.
The government is pressing the demand in exchange for a 500 million-
euro ($630 million) auto-sector stimulus package announced the same
day, Le Monde said. The new measures include a 1,000-euro incentive
for consumers who scrap old cars and buy new ones, as well as cheap
loans for carmakers’ financing arms.
Industry Minister Luc Chatel will meet Peugeot executives Dec. 8 to
discuss the industry crisis, the paper said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Laurence Frost in Paris at
lfr...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 6, 2008 12:45 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From pricey luxury sedans to popular hybrid cars, automobiles made
overseas are stacking up at ports and parking lots around the United
States as supplies far outstrip demand amid the nation's worst auto
market in more than 25 years:time for the stupid libertarians and
conservatives to blame the U.A.W., oops, the U.A.W. does not represent
foreign car workers, then what's the problem? could the real problem
be a world wide collapse in demand:)
conservatives and libertarians are some of the most god awful stupid
people on the planet!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081207/us_nm/us_autos_ports
From hybrids to SUVs, unsold cars pile up
LONG BEACH, California (Reuters) – From pricey luxury sedans to
popular hybrid cars, automobiles made overseas are stacking up at
ports and parking lots around the United States as supplies far
outstrip demand amid the nation's worst auto market in more than 25
years.
At the Long Beach port near Los Angeles, Toyota Motor Corp vehicles
including Prius hybrids, FJ Cruiser sport utility vehicles and Lexus
IS 250 luxury sedans are being stored on a vast construction site that
will one day be a new container terminal.
The site became a gigantic parking lot when Toyota and Daimler AG's
Mercedes-Benz asked the port for space to store thousands of vehicles
that dealerships have not been able to take on due to sluggish sales.
"It's unusual that they would be here longer than a few days, but
that's the situation now," said Art Wong, a spokesman for the Port of
Long Beach. "They can't move it through their pipeline fast enough so
they are asking for additional space while they keep their vehicles
here more than a few days, and in some cases more than a few weeks."
The port has not counted how many additional cars were being stored,
but Wong said Toyota has leased an additional 23 acres of space while
Mercedes-Benz has leased about 20 more acres.
Nissan Motor Co Ltd, which brings its cars in through the neighboring
Los Angeles port, had been talking to Long Beach about leasing space,
Wong said, though that arrangement fell through.
A Port of Los Angeles spokeswoman, Theresa Adams-Lopez, said Wallenius
Wilhelmsen Logistics (WWL), which operates the terminal that brings in
Nissan's vehicles, had shifted vehicle storage to another state.
Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said the company last increased
its space at the Port of Los Angeles in February.
"As a normal course of business, we've got cars moving out of there
all the time to various points across the country," Zachary said in an
e-mail.
WWL, which is based in Norway, would not comment on specific
customers, but said auto inventories were building up across the
United States.
"We are seeing cargo buildup at ports of entry on both coasts as well
as at other inventory points such as factories and rail yards and
dealerships," Christopher Connor, the head of WWL's business in the
Americas, said in a statement.
Other ports are also seeing a buildup of cars, though not all of them
are leasing large tracts of land to automakers. The San Diego port,
which brings in Honda Motor Co, Volkswagen AG and Mitsubishi Corp
vehicles, has about 14,000 cars on its property. That's about 2,000
more vehicles than usual, according to spokesman John Gilmore, who
said the additional cars belong to a range of manufacturers.
COLLAPSING DEMAND
Global automakers have been sideswiped by the collapsing demand for
new cars and trucks. A market slowdown that began in the United States
has spread to Europe and Asia.
Detroit's embattled automakers have been pushed to the brink of
failure by the downturn and are asking the U.S. Congress for a $34
billion rescue package.
But the sharp decline in sales in October and November blindsided even
the industry's better-performing manufacturers like Toyota and Honda.
Toyota said on Friday that it was cutting North American output by
idling factories that produce vehicles such as the Camry and Corolla,
the Japanese automakers' top-selling cars.
Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said inventory had been pushed to
"unacceptably high" levels that would take 80 to 90 days of sales to
clear.
That is still less than the 115-day supply of inventory on average for
General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC, but it is double
Toyota's inventory levels of just a year earlier.
The surge in inventories has been a small blessing to some in the
industry. Automobile processors, who wash, repair and accessorize
imported cars before they head to dealerships, said revenue from
storing cars is helping offset the market's overall sluggishness.
MidTexas International Center Inc, whose Midlothian, Texas, facility
processes vehicles for Kia Motors Corp, Mazda Motor Corp and Toyota's
Lexus, expects to break even this year despite the dismal auto market
because automakers are paying for cars to sit on its lots for longer.
"The inflow of vehicles is a lot greater than the outflow," MidTexas
President Randy Denton said. "That helps to offset the loss of income
from the vehicles that we're not processing."
(Editing by Carol Bishopric)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volkswagen Financial Services AG, a unit of Volkswagen AG that helps
customers finance cars, has applied for government aid under Germany’s
bank bailout program:and they are not represented by the U.A.W.,
conservatives and libertarians are god awful stupid people!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=a_7lAUuqXeLM
VW’s Financial Services Units Seek State Guarantees (Update1)
By Andreas Cremer and Aaron Kirchfeld
Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Financial Services AG, a unit of
Volkswagen AG that helps customers finance cars, has applied for
government aid under Germany’s bank bailout program.
Volkswagen Financial Services and Volkswagen Bank, a subsidiary,
submitted requests for loan guarantees through Soffin, the government-
inspired Financial Market Stabilization Fund, spokesman Dietmar
Kupisch said in a telephone interview from the division’s
Braunschweig, Germany headquarters today.
“The move should support Volkswagen’s financial strength,” said Oliver
Caspari, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Dusseldorf, Germany, who
recommends selling the carmaker’s stock. “I wouldn’t rule out that
Daimler and BMW follow.”
Germany, Europe’s biggest economy, pushed a 500 billion-euro ($642
billion) bank-rescue plan through parliament in October to stabilize
the country’s banks. Soffin includes 400 billion euros in debt
guarantees and as much as 100 billion euros for providing capital and
to buy so-called “toxic” assets.
Volkswagen Financial Services is the largest automobile financial
services provider in Europe, with total assets of more than 52.3
billion euros at the end of last year. The unit has more than 6,100
employees worldwide, about 3,800 of which work in Germany. Volkswagen
is Europe’s biggest carmaker.
The global credit crunch and a recession in the U.S. and Europe have
plunged the auto industry into what General Motors Corp. has called
the worst crisis since World War II. German automakers including
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG and Stuttgart- based Mercedes-Benz have
cut production by more than 200,000 vehicles this year.
Daimler, BMW
Daimler AG, the world’s second-largest maker of luxury cars, said
yesterday it will cut working hours at its biggest factory between
January and March to cope with dwindling sales. Volkswagen plans to
suspend production at its hometown plant for more than three weeks
from Dec. 18, cutting production after car sales fell 5.1 percent in
October.
Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz and BMW, whose sales plunged 25 percent each
last month, have no plans as yet to follow Volkswagen’s application
for government aid.
“Mercedes-Benz Bank doesn’t intend to participate in the program at
present, but it’s keeping all options open,” Harald Bertsch, a
Stuttgart, Germany-based spokesman for Daimler AG’s luxury-car unit,
said today. The company will “re-evaluate” its position if other
automaker banks apply for funding.
The BMW Bank is “rock solid and has sufficient capital,” said Mathias
Schmidt, a Munich-based company spokesman. “The issue is liquidity and
for that we need functioning capital markets,” he said, adding there
has been “no decision” whether to tap German bank bailout funds.
To contact the reporter on this story: Andreas Cremer in Berlin at
acr...@bloomberg.net; Aaron Kirchfeld in Frankfurt at
akirc...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 9, 2008 05:29 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
even cutting edge companies with no U.A.W. contracts cannot innovate
and expand with out government help in this economic climate:Electric
Car Maker Tesla Needs Government Aid to Build Sedan, conservatives and
libertarians are some of the most god awful stupidest people on earth
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ae2a0xxtjGic&refer=home
Electric Car Maker Tesla Needs Government Aid to Build Sedan
By Adam Satariano
Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Tesla Motors Inc., the maker of a luxury
electric sports car, will delay the introduction of its less-expensive
sedan if the company doesn’t receive a $350 million U.S. government
loan, Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said.
The loan will help develop a four-door sedan to be priced at $57,499,
Musk said today in an interview. The closely held company won’t open a
$250 million manufacturing facility in San Jose, California, without
the aid, he said.
“We can’t move forward with that without a major amount of capital,”
Musk said. “If we don’t get any government funding then what we need
to do is we need to wait until the capital markets recover, which
could be a year or two years from now.”
Tesla, based in San Carlos, California, is applying for loans under a
$25 billion Energy Department program created by the U.S. Congress to
encourage the development of energy- efficient vehicles. Lawmakers and
the Bush administration are debating using $15 billion from the fund
to bail out U.S. automakers General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC.
Musk today handed over the keys to Tesla’s 100th Roadster at its
showroom in Menlo Park, California. The $109,000 car, which can travel
about 240 miles on a single charge, was bought by Sam Perry, a Silicon
Valley business consultant who was seen on television during President-
elect Barack Obama’s election night acceptance speech being leaned on
by talk show host Oprah Winfrey.
Musk said Telsa expects to sell about 1,100 Roadsters next year. With
the government aid and the new factory, the company could begin
selling about 20,000 sedans annually by 2011, Musk said. A prototype
of the new car will be unveiled as early as late February.
Seeking $650 Million
In addition to the $350 million loan application for the new sedan,
Musk said Tesla is seeking $100 million to expand its drive train
business in which it sells parts to other automakers and $200 million
for a battery-cell production factory.
Musk, who received almost $300 million from public offerings of online
companies PayPal and Zip2 Corp., has put at least $55 million into the
company that started in 2003. Other investors include Google Inc.
founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin and California-based venture funds
Vantage Point and JP Morgan Bay Area Equity Fund.
California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, San Francisco Mayor Gavin
Newsom and actor George Clooney are among those who own the Roadster.
To contact the reporter on this story: Adam Satariano in San Francisco
at asata...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 9, 2008 19:45 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
toyota is burning thru cash, in a desperate attempt to preserve cash,
it looks like the dividend is on its way out, as toyotas sales plummet
world wide:Toyota Motor Corp. has slashed jobs, production, management
pay and its profit forecast as the recession decimates car demand. Now
the dividend is under pressure, Fitch cut Toyota’s senior unsecured
debt rating by two levels to AA from AAA on Nov. 26 and there is no
U.A.W. at toyota:)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aC0JYmiGHeeU&refer=home
Toyota May Be Forced to Cut Dividend in Response to Profit Drop
By Tetsuya Komatsu and Naoko Fujimura
Dec. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp. has slashed jobs,
production, management pay and its profit forecast as the recession
decimates car demand. Now the dividend is under pressure.
To repeat last year’s payout of 75 yen a share for the fiscal second-
half from earnings, Toyota would need 235 billion yen ($2.54 billion)
in net income for the period, more than four times its current
forecast, according to Bloomberg calculations.
Toyota’s sales in the U.S., traditionally the company’s most
profitable market, plunged the most in 28 years last month as the
recession forced consumers to cut spending. In response, Toyota City,
Japan-based Toyota slashed winter bonuses for managers by about 10
percent and will cut 3,000 temporary jobs.
“They may pay the dividend this year, but cut it next year or maybe
cut it only a little this year and then cut it more next year,” said
Edwin Merner, president of Atlantis Investment Research Corp., which
manages $3.1 billion in Tokyo. “It would cause some shareholders to
get angry.”
The global recession has already forced Nissan Motor Co. to abandon
its pledge of fixed dividends for the next three years. General Motors
Corp., seeking government loans to avoid running out of cash,
suspended its dividend in July for the first time since 1922.
“Toyota must consider lowering dividends, should the current situation
continue throughout next fiscal year,” said Tatsuya Mizuno, director
at Fitch Ratings in Tokyo. Fitch cut Toyota’s senior unsecured debt
rating by two levels to AA from AAA on Nov. 26.
Cash Reserves
The maker of Corolla small cars paid annual dividends of 140 yen a
share last fiscal year and paid an unchanged 65 yen a share in the
first half of this fiscal year. Keeping the second- half dividend at
75 yen a share would mean dipping into the company’s 2.6 trillion yen
($28 billion) in cash reserves.
Toyota expects operating profit to plunge 74 percent this fiscal year
to 600 billion yen as demand shrinks in all its major markets. The
yen’s 21 percent gain against the dollar and 36 percent rise against
the euro will also erode earnings from exports.
The company’s operating profit may fall another 50 percent next fiscal
year as rising unemployment further undermines car sales, according to
Koji Endo, an auto analyst at Credit Suisse Securities (Japan) Ltd.
Kota Yuzawa, an analyst at Goldman Sachs Japan Co. expects operating
profit to plunge 62 percent for the year starting April 2009. Nomura
Holdings Inc. expects profit next fiscal year to be down 58 percent.
U.S. Market
Auto sales in the U.S., the world’s largest auto market, fell to the
lowest annual rate in 26 years. Toyota’s sales slipped 34 percent.
Honda Motor Co. expects the market may shrink to between 12.5 million
and 12.6 million vehicles next year. Toyota and Honda traditionally
get more than 50 percent of their annual operating profit from North
America.
Toyota has increased its annual dividend by six-fold over the last 10
years. In its last annual report, Toyota set a goal of continually
boosting the dividend per share in accordance with business results.
Its policy hasn’t changed, spokesman Hideaki Homma said.
Toyota’s domestic sales plunged 28 percent in November, as
industrywide sales dropped to the lowest tally in 39 years for the
month. Toyota sold 83,000 vehicles in Europe in October, down 14
percent from a year ago. In the first 10 months of this year, European
sales dropped 6.4 percent, Toyota said.
Stronger Yen
Compounding the drop in overseas demand is the stronger yen, which
erodes profit from exports. Every 1 yen gain against the dollar and
euro trims Toyota’s annual operating profit by 40 billion yen and 6
billion yen, according to the company. The carmaker based its second-
half earnings outlook on 100 yen to the dollar and 130 yen to the
euro.
Toyota, which opened its seventh North American auto assembly plant
last week, said it plans to further reduce production at factories in
the U.S. and Canada as sales slow. Toyota this year halted production
of Tundra pickups at its San Antonio plant for more than three months.
Production resumed in Texas in November with a single shift.
The company is eliminating nine days of output by extending an annual
holiday shutdown of its Georgetown, Kentucky, facility and closing the
location for two additional days in January, the company said Dec. 5.
Holiday shutdowns are also extended at the plant in Fremont,
California, that Toyota shares with General Motors Corp. and at plants
in Cambridge and Woodstock, Ontario, the company said.
After predicting the lowest operating profit in 13 years, the
company’s stock has fallen 51 percent in 2008, set for the worst
annual performance since at least 1975.
“Sooner or later, Toyota may need to trim dividends in this
unprecedented era,” Ichiro Takamatsu, chief investment officer at
Alphex Investments Co., a Tokyo-based hedge fund.
To contact the reporter on this story: Naoko Fujimura in Tokyo at
nfuj...@bloomberg.net; Tetsuya Komatsu in Tokyo at
teko...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 10, 2008 16:37 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=a3PDLS4SjrNs
Honda Widens North American Output Cuts by 119,000 (Update4)
By Alan Ohnsman
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co. is cutting 119,000 vehicles
from its North American production plan, tripling its reduction for
this fiscal year as plunging sales push U.S.-based competitors to the
brink of collapse.
The automaker expects to build 1.29 million cars and light trucks in
the U.S., Canada and Mexico, in its year ending March 31, down from an
initial goal of 1.47 million, spokesman Ed Miller said today in an e-
mail. The latest reductions bring the total to 175,000 vehicles from
the Tokyo-based company’s earlier cuts of 56,000. No layoffs are
planned, Miller said.
“Everyone is hurting,” said Dennis Virag, president of Automotive
Consulting Group Inc. in Ann Arbor, Michigan. “Sales are down across
the industry 30 percent to 35 percent since September. That pain is
being shared equally by all companies.”
Honda and Japan-based Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. have
slashed production plans this year as the U.S. recession dragged the
annual auto sales rate last month to a 26-year low. Through November,
those companies built about 300,000 fewer autos in North America than
a year earlier, led by Toyota’s three-month shutdown of a San Antonio
pickup-truck plant.
“Showroom traffic is down for everyone,” Miller said.
Honda will trim production through slower line speed and eliminating
some scheduled assembly days, Miller said. Plants will extend a
scheduled holiday shutdown this month by two days, and in January
between four and seven days of output will be cut at factories in
Ohio, Alabama, Indiana and Ontario, he said.
Declining Sales
U.S. sales for Honda, which last had an annual drop in its biggest
market 15 years ago, fell 5.4 percent through November from a year
earlier. Honda, Japan’s second-largest carmaker, last month posted a
32 percent decline, its steepest since 1981.
Across the industry sales this year are down 16 percent, led by
declines of 28 percent for Chrysler LLC, 22 percent for General Motors
Corp. and 19 percent for Ford Motor Co.
GM and Chrysler have said they need U.S. aid this month to avoid
running short of cash for operations. President George W. Bush’s
administration said it may tap the $700 billion bank- bailout fund to
prevent an industry collapse, after the Senate yesterday failed to
approve $14 billion in emergency loans.
Ford has said it doesn’t need emergency federal aid, though Chief
Executive Officer Alan Mulally said last week that his company could
be dragged into bankruptcy by a GM failure.
While Honda and Toyota are in better shape financially than the U.S.
companies, they would suffer should GM fail, Virag said.
“If GM collapsed, it would take out parts suppliers that Honda also
uses,” he said. “It could knock sales for the industry down another 20
percent to 25 percent.”
Honda’s U.S. operations are based in Torrance, California. The
company’s American depositary receipts fell $1.07, or 4.7 percent, to
$21.93 at 4:15 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading.
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at
aohn...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 12, 2008 16:24 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aiaADgIMpVN4
Renault, Daimler, Suppliers Drop as GM Rescue Blocked (Update1)
By Laurence Frost and Steve Rothwell
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Renault SA, Daimler AG and Faurecia SA plunged
in European trading after the Senate’s rejection of a $14 billion
bailout for U.S. carmakers raised fears they may go bust, dragging
down suppliers and rival auto manufacturers alike.
Renault, the French carmaker whose Japanese affiliate, Nissan Motor
Co., is heavily dependent on U.S. sales, dropped as much as 9.5
percent in Paris. Stuttgart, Germany-based Daimler, the world’s second-
biggest maker of luxury vehicles, dropped 8.7 percent and Faurecia of
France, with has built 10 new North American plants in three years,
lost 12 percent.
General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC face possible bankruptcy within
weeks after senators last night rejected a government rescue. GM
plummeted 51 percent in German trading and auto stocks slumped
worldwide amid concern that a collapse of the Detroit company may
shock the U.S. economy, sending auto sales there lower and threatening
parts-makers with collapse.
“People are worried about contagion from the potential failure of the
U.S. carmakers,” said Michael Tyndall, an auto- industry specialist at
Nomura Securities in London. “It might seem like a U.S. problem, but
the suppliers are global.”
In Japan, Toyota Motor Corp., vying with GM to be the world’s biggest
automaker, fell 10 percent, the most in a month, to 2,760 yen. Honda
Motor Co. dropped 12 percent to 1,921 yen and Nissan Motor Co. lost 11
percent to 308 yen.
Economic Damage
“A collapse in Detroit would seriously damage the economy, which is
bad for Japan’s automakers,” said Shigeru Matsumura, a market analyst
at SMBC Friend Securities Co. in Tokyo.
Renault, which last year derived about 40 percent of its earnings from
a 44 percent stake in Nissan, fell 1.79 euros to 17.10 euros and was
trading at 17.37 euros as of 1:03 p.m. local time. Daimler, whose
Mercedes-Benz unit counts the U.S. as its second-biggest market, fell
2.19 euros to 22.92 euros and was later priced at 23.13 euros.
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, reliant on the U.S. for almost a quarter
of revenue, lost as much as 7.2 percent and is “observing the
situation,” said spokesman Frank Wienstroth in Munich. Fiat SpA of
Italy slid 9 percent and Volkswagen AG, Europe’s No. 1 carmaker, based
in Wolfsburg, Germany, fell 4.3 percent.
Suppliers Suffer
Parts companies dropped more sharply even than carmakers amid concern
that those which supply U.S. manufactures may find their revenue
slashed. Suppliers have already suffered shrinking margins as their
customers pressure them to cut costs.
Faurecia SA, Europe’s biggest maker of car interiors, slumped as much
as 1.37 euros to 10.50 euros before trading at 10.88 euros. The
Nanterre, France-based company counts GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co.
among clients, as well as Renault, Daimler, VW, Fiat and its parent,
PSA Peugeot Citroen of France.
Paris-based Valeo SA, France’s second-biggest maker of car parts
ranging from windshield wipers to headlamps and air- conditioning
systems, declined 11 percent before trading down 6.6 percent at 9.95
euros.
Leoni AG of Nuremberg, Germany, dropped 17 percent and was later down
15 percent at 9.89 euros. The company gets as much 5 percent of
revenue from GM’s Opel unit and may suffer “limited effects” from the
failure of the U.S. bailout, it said today.
Autoliv Inc., the world’s largest maker of vehicle air bags, fell 15
percent and was subsequently 13 percent lower at 154.50 kronor after
saying fourth-quarter “organic” sales will fall 25 percent. The
Stockholm-based company is owed about $100 million by the U.S. “Big
Three,” spokesman Mats Oedman said.
Claims at Risk
“The risk is that we lose the claims we have and are forced to write
them off altogether,” Oedman said. Still, U.S. automakers should
continue to produce cars even under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection
and Autoliv in any case supplies the Asian and European companies that
may expand in North America in the event of a wholesale collapse, he
said.
GM has rejected some suppliers’ demands for upfront payment, people
familiar with the matter have said.
“The auto-parts production system will face serious disruption if GM
and Chrysler go bankrupt,” said Anders Trapp, an analyst at SEB
Enskilda in Stockholm. “If just one of the majors goes under even
healthy suppliers will go bust, and some parts could simply become
unavailable.”
Shares of engineering companies less reliant on automotive revenue
also declined. London-based Tomkins Plc, the world’s largest supplier
of power-transmission belts, dropped as much as 9.6 percent and
Sweden’s Trelleborg AB, the No. 1 maker of vibration-dampening rubber
components, was down 8.8 percent.
Bailout Thwarted
The Senate thwarted the bailout plan in a procedural vote after the
failure of talks with Republicans over how quickly union wages should
be cut. President George W. Bush must now decide whether to let the
companies collapse or find another way to channel government funds.
GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner told Congress last week that
he’s trying to avoid bankruptcy at all costs because it would lead to
liquidation as buyers opted for solvent car companies. GM, reeling
from almost $73 billion in losses since 2004 and a 22 percent plunge
in U.S. sales this year, says it will lack the minimum $11 billion it
needs to pay its bills by the end of this month.
Chrysler, battered by a 28 percent plunge in U.S. sales through
November, the most among U.S. automakers, says it will run out of
money early next year.
“The question is how the whole thing works its way through the system
and when will customers start buying cars again,” said David Larkam,
an analyst at Arden Partners in Birmingham. “As in any industry where
the primary manufacturers aren’t making money, pain goes back down the
supply chain.”
To contact the reporters on this story: Laurence Frost in Paris at
lfr...@bloomberg.net; Steve Rothwell in London at
srot...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 12, 2008 07:20 EST
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_cuts
GM to temporarily close 20 plants to slash output
NEW YORK – General Motors Corp. said Friday it will temporarily close
20 factories across North America and make sweeping cuts to its
vehicle production as it tries to adjust to dramatically weaker
automobile demand.
GM said it will cut 250,000 vehicles from its production schedule for
the first quarter of 2009, which includes a cut of 60,000 vehicles
announced last week. Normal production would be around 750,000 cars
and trucks for the quarter, spokesman Tony Sapienza said.
Many plants will be shut down for the whole month of January, he said,
and all told, the factories will be closed for 30 percent of the
quarter.
"We're adjusting pretty dramatically," spokesman Chris Lee said.
The move affects most of GM's plants in the U.S., Canada and Mexico.
During the shutdowns, employees will be temporarily laid off and can
apply to receive a portion of their normal pay from the company. They
can also apply for state unemployment benefits, Lee said.
GM and nearly all automakers who sell in the U.S. are mired in the
worst sales slump in 26 years. GM reported its sales in the U.S.
plunged 41 percent in November and are down 22 percent for the first
11 months of the year compared with the same period last year.
Cash-strapped GM is seeking government loans to stay in operation
beyond the end of the year. The White House said Friday it may tap
into its $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund to help GM and Chrysler
stay in business after the Senate blocked a measure to provide $14
billion in immediate loans.
The measure failed in dramatic fashion late Thursday after Senate
Republicans balked at passing the bill without more wage and benefit
concessions from autoworkers.
Lee said Friday's production cuts are unrelated to the rescue's
failure and had already been planned.
The entire auto industry has been making massive production cuts
recently as it adjusts to the reality of lower automobile demand.
Earlier Friday, Honda Motor Co. said it was cutting production in
North America by 119,000 vehicles for its fiscal year ending March 31.
That brings Honda's expected production for its fiscal year to 1.3
million units, a spokesman said.
Auto demand in the U.S., and increasingly around the world, has been
hobbled due to the declining economy and the credit squeeze, which has
made it more difficult and more costly for some buyers to obtain
financing. Industrywide vehicle sales crumbled 37 percent in November,
with every major automaker posting giant sales declines.
Lee said GM's production cuts will be achieved by adding "down weeks"
to the schedules at the affected plants. During down weeks, which can
be staggered during a given period of time or can come several at
once, the plant will not produce anything and employees will be
temporary laid off.
"We look at it on a plant-by-plant basis and make decisions regarding
their production schedule in terms of market demand, so it's not a
blanket ... we look at it plant by plant and make those decisions,"
Lee said.
___
AP Auto Writer Tom Krisher in Detroit contributed to this report
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Why-AIG-Gets-Billions-GM-Gets-usnews-13819339.html
Why AIG Gets Billions, GM Gets Scorn
• Rick Newman
• Friday December 12, 2008, 1:09 pm EST
• Yahoo! Buzz Print
Let me see if I'm getting this right: AIG, the huge insurance company,
has so far gotten $173 billion worth of federal aid, because traders
at one small division made bets on exotic securities that were so
calamitous they threatened to bring down the whole company. So far,
the amount of money the feds have pledged to this one firm equals
nearly one-third of the nation's defense budget.
General Motors, America's biggest automaker, has asked for a $10
billion federal loan, equal to one-seventeenth of what AIG has gotten
- and Congress has said no. There were no rogue traders at GM, and the
company's problems have intensified in plain view, over several
months, instead of coming from out of nowhere in a single, cataclysmic
episode.
Make sense? Doesn't to me. So maybe if we look at each company a bit
more closely, it will be clearer why the government favors companies
like AIG over ones like GM.
Is AIG bigger? No. AIG doesn't break out its U.S. employment numbers,
but it has 116,000 workers worldwide. Perhaps half of those are U.S.
jobs.
GM employs 96,000 Americans. Total worldwide employment is 252,000,
more than twice AIG's.
Are AIG executives humbler? Not really. Here's how CEO pay stacks up:
Former AIG CEO Martin Sullivan earned about $14 million in 2007. Total
pay over the last three years: About $53 million (including only 9
months in 2005, the year he became CEO).
GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned $14.4 million in 2007. Total pay over the
last three years: About $30 million.
AIG is also offering controversial "retention bonuses," ranging from
$92,500 to $4,000,000, to a select group of execs deemed essential to
the company's turnaround. Congress has asked questions - but so far
shown little outrage.
Has AIG had a regime change? Yes. Former Allstate CEO Ed Liddy took
over the company in September, replacing Sullivan, who presided over a
wipeout in credit-default swaps and other exotic investments. The
fresh blood pacified critics somewhat.
GM has had no regime change, although key members of Congress have
called for that. Wagoner has been running the company since 2000, and
the company continues to aggressively defend him.
[ Read a defense of Rick Wagoner.]
Has AIG presented its turnaround plan to Congress? Not formally.
There's only been one Congressional hearing on AIG, and that focused
mostly on past practices. No current AIG officials have testified
before Congress since the feds got involved.
Wagoner has testified before Congress four times since November. And
GM has presented a 38-page "viability plan," that's publicly
available, showing how it would use government money.
[See how the automakers' bailout plans stack up.]
Does have AIG have friends in high places? You could say that.
Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben
Bernanke both support the AIG bailout, and they've steered money to
the company without Congressional approval.
GM's most important friends in Washington have been the Michigan
Congressional delegation, which obviously doesn't have the clout it
used to. Paulson has actually argued against using part of the huge
$700 billion financial bailout fund to help the automakers, because
they can't pass a "viability" test proving they'll stay in business
long enough to pay back the loans. But AIG hasn't passed a viability
test either, and without federal help there's little doubt it would be
in bankruptcy.
[Read about better ways to handle a multibillion-dollar bailout.]
Does AIG have unionized workers? Few, if any.
GM has a bunch: 64,000. Ah ha! Maybe that explains it. In fact, Senate
Republicans who blocked a $10 billion emergency loan for GM and a $4
billion loan for Chrysler said they wouldn't approve a Detroit bailout
unless the United Auto Workers made much deeper concessions than
they've already offered, essentially giving up any advantages they
have over non-unionized workers in other states.
So here's one lesson: If you want a government bailout, try to have
problems that are too complicated for most people to understand. And
make sure your employees are the kind who wear a suit to work every
day. Once you've satisfied those two requirements, ask for as much as
you want: The coffers are open.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aFB58YiLrqz4
UAW Had Reached Agreement With Senator, Chief Says (Update2)
By Bill Koenig
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The United Auto Workers reached an agreement
last night on U.S. aid with Senator Bob Corker, a Tennessee
Republican, only to have it rejected by other members of his party in
the Senate, the union’s chief said.
Republicans “wanted to tear down any agreement we came up with,” UAW
President Ron Gettelfinger said today at a news conference at the
union’s headquarters in Detroit.
Corker blamed Democrats and the union, saying in a Bloomberg
Television interview today that “there were politics involved. The
only way that Senate Democrats, any of my friends and House Democrats
were going to agree to a deal is if the UAW said grace over it.”
The exchange reflects the tension between Republican senators from
Southern states that have plants owned by overseas automakers, and the
Detroit-based union, which primarily supports Democrats in political
campaigns, in efforts to craft a federal rescue plan for General
Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC.
Those two automakers have said they need aid this month to avoid
running out cash for operations. Ford Motor Co. has asked for a credit
line it said it may not have to use.
Senate Republicans such as Corker, Richard Shelby of Alabama, Mitch
McConnell of Kentucky and Jim Demint of South Carolina represent
states where Asian and European automakers operate nonunion factories.
Possible Alternative
President George W. Bush’s administration today dropped its opposition
to using a $700 billion bank-bailout fund to provide financing for
U.S. automakers, after a plan for $14 billion in emergency loans
stalled in the Senate, in part because of opposition from the Southern
senators.
Gettelfinger said today that he obtained an e-mail sent to Republican
officials using opposition to automaker assistance as a way to
criticize Democrats and unions. The union leader read from what he
said was a copy of the e-mail, which wasn’t immediately made available
to reporters.
Corker said in the interview that “we are talking about five, six,
seven hours of negotiations, and the deal hinged at the end of the day
on very loose language that said the UAW, with wages and benefits, had
to be competitive” with overseas automakers.
Gettelfinger said in a follow-up statement that the tentative
agreement called for bondholders and union-managed health-care trusts
to exchange a large portion of their claims for stock in the
automakers. The trusts are known as Voluntary Employee Beneficiary
Associations.
The union-managed trusts take over health care obligations for hourly
retirees at GM, Ford and Chrysler starting in 2010.
To contact the reporter on this story: Bill Koenig in Detroit, at
wko...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 12, 2008 15:09 EST----------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Detroit's automakers, who closely identify themselves with the
history of the United States and its victories, it was sobering to
hear lawmakers from southern states with foreign transplant factories
describe the American companies as the competition.
Rep. Tom Price, a Republican from Georgia, mused that taxpayers in his
state would be paying to help companies which compete against South
Korea's Kia Motors and other foreign-based automakers with activities
in Georgia.
Japanese and other overseas automakers have been assembling vehicles
in the South since the 1980s, but their supporters have backed them up
discreetly till now, Zelizer said.
"What's interesting is seeing a more open defense of the Japanese
firms."
Shelby said there are 124,000 autoworkers in the South, close to half
the number of people employed by Detroit's Big Three.
Foreign automakers have kept quiet throughout the bailout debate.
But executives with the Asian and European automakers caution that the
collapse of a Detroit automaker would strain a distressed supplier
network on which they also depend.
From The Detroit News, 12/11/08:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/AUTO01/812...
Southern lawmakers lead bill's opposition
By Christine Tierney
WASHINGTON --
..............................................................................................................
After four days of hearings over the past month, the chief executives
of Detroit's Big Three automakers were unable to overcome outdated
perceptions and resentments about their industry or counter the
growing influence of foreign-based automakers with operations in the
South.
Some of the bill's harshest opponents include Republican senators from
southern states with Asian and German auto factories, such as Sens.
Richard Shelby of Alabama and Bob Corker of Tennessee.
Congress' Democratic leaders have pushed the legislation forward by
warning that the country cannot risk the collapse of an automaker when
the economy is shedding hundreds of thousands of jobs every month.
"You could end up losing this industry in a few weeks," Sen.
Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., the head of the powerful Senate Banking
Committee, said this week.
"It's that precarious."
___________________________________________________
Wonder how much the Repugs are getting from foreign automakers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There they go again, continuing in the grand Republican tradition of
fucking over working people. I hope Bernie Madoff swindled every one
of them!
Friday, Dec. 12, 2008 06:38 PST
The Republican economic recovery plan
A postscript to "Senate GOP to UAW: Drop dead":
The growth of income inequality between the richest one percent of
Americans and the rest of the citizens of the United States has been
one of the defining characteristics of the last few decades. We have
been witnessing, for the last 18 months, what the rich ended up doing
with their money. While touting the mantra that free, unregulated
markets know best, they succeeded in screwing up the entire global
economy. Millions and millions of workers all over the world will lose
their jobs as a result.
So where did the auto-bailout negotiations break down? Over the demand
by anti-union Southern Republican senators that domestic automaker
workers be forced to accept immediate wage cuts, and the loss of
benefits. I'm with Barney Frank on this one: No one asked the rank-
and-
file employees of Citigroup or AIG or Morgan-Stanley to cut their
salaries in exchange for government handouts. Assembly-line workers at
GM and Chrysler, on the other hand, must tighten their belts.
The economies of Michigan and Ohio are already in the dumpster. Darker
times are ahead. And yet, at this critical perilous juncture, Senate
Republicans have decided to pick a fight with the working class. My
guess it will be a long, long time before either state ever votes for
a Republican for President again.
UPDATE: No sooner did I publish this, than the Wall Street Journal
reported that the Bush administration is considering using TARP funds
to bail out Detroit. We'll see if that news reverses the early plunge
in the stock market: 10 minutes after the opening bell, the Dow was
down 150.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp...
12/12/2008
60 seats or not, Democrats have the edge they need
By Carl Leubsdorf, Washington bureau chief of the Dallas Morning
News.
The recent Senate runoff victory in Georgia gave Republicans a small
bright spot after their devastating electoral setbacks.
But there is probably more bravado than reality in Sen. Saxby
Chambliss's claim that his triumph will ensure a "balance of
government" when President-elect Barack Obama take office.
The claim stems from the fact that, without Georgia and the unresolved
Senate race in Minnesota, the Democrats remain two seats short of the
60 needed to prevent procedural roadblocks by a united minority.
But the political climate and economic crisis will make it far harder
for Obama's opponents to employ the obstructionist tactics they used
so successfully when Democrats enjoyed only a modest margin the past
two years and the GOP held the White House.
Even Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is talking more of using the
GOP's 41 seats to influence the new president's course, rather than
block it.
In fact, all signs are that the Democrats have enough votes to help
Mr. Obama pass both a massive economic stimulus package and the energy
and health insurance measures he pledged in the campaign.
In the House, a Democratic majority of nearly 260 members should
enable the new administration to prevail consistently, even if it
occasionally loses some of the more conservative Democrats.
And while Senate rules permit greater resistance, reality suggests it
won't be that easy.
A main reason is that the 41 or 42 GOP senators include hard-line
conservatives from heavily Republican states in the South and
moderates from predominantly Democratic states in the Northeast.
At least for the first year or two, it seems unlikely that moderates
like Maine's Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, Ohio's George Voinovich,
Minnesota's Norm Coleman and Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter would try to
prevent votes on major Obama proposals and nominations.
Other Republicans -- like Texas' Kay Bailey Hutchison and, more
importantly, Arizona's John McCain -- are likely to reflect public
disdain for seeking political gain with confrontational tactics.
Interestingly, Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the only remaining
major GOP officeholder in a state once solidly Republican, has
seconded the Democratic call for a large-scale stimulus program.
It's no coincidence that he's up for re-election in 2010.
Meanwhile, Obama has shrewdly tapped into the public mood by stressing
repeatedly the need to reach across party lines.
Other presidents have done so before, only to fall victim to excessive
partisanship on their side or from their opposition.
This time, the political fallout from such tactics might be more
severe.
The question is how long Obama can benefit from such a mood.
Traditionally, presidents are lucky if their honeymoons last until the
August congressional recess of their first year.
Democratic pollster Peter Hart conducted a recent focus group for the
University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center among
"swing" voters who backed Mr. Obama.
Results suggest the economic crisis may give him more time.
These voters, Hart concluded, "recognize the mess he is inheriting,
and their expectations are reasonable and not excessive.
The judgments about him are more likely to be based on the way he
approaches the problems and not by instantaneous results."
Ultimately, the natural political order will reassert itself.
Obama's public support may fade; Republicans will seek ways to revive
their fortunes.
By the time he enters his third year in 2011, he may need 60 Senate
votes more than now.
But while the opposition party usually rebounds in the next midterm
election, more 2010 Senate races loom on Democratic than Republican
turf.
Sen. John Cornyn, the new chairman of the National Republican
Senatorial Committee, will have his hands full trying to stem the
Democratic tide, especially if Obama retains popular support.
Until then, the GOP victory in Georgia seems likely to be seen as more
significant in underscoring the party's hold on Dixie than in erecting
a barrier to the new administration.
______________________________________________________
Have fun, Repugs, after January 6 your asses are mud.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM, Ford, Chrysler and their credit operations comprise 10 percent of
the high-yield bond market, any failure would have major implications
for credit-default swaps, asset- backed securities and commercial
paper. It would be ``the credit crisis, part II,'':so go ahead
conservative/libertarian cranks, hang yourself with your own ropes:)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6eGk_t1Tin0&refer=home
GM, Chrysler Bankruptcies Would Hit Confidence, Deepen Slump
By Michael McKee
Dec. 14 (Bloomberg) -- A bankruptcy filing by General Motors Corp. or
Chrysler LLC would worsen the longest recession since the early 1980s
if it led to a shutdown at the companies.
``The economic ramifications of an outright bankruptcy would be
severe,'' New York University Professor Nouriel Roubini said in an
interview with Bloomberg Television on Dec. 12. The economic slump is
already so severe that ``there's not going to be a recovery of growth
until 2010,'' he said.
Industry experts say the automakers would close plants, fire tens of
thousands of workers and cut production. That would cause many of
their suppliers to collapse, triggering more job losses, straining the
cities and states where the car and parts companies operate, as well
as federal safety-net programs.
It would also deliver another psychological blow to consumers and a
major shock to Main Street following the crises on Wall Street.
Economists say it's difficult to estimate the full impact, given the
large number of possible scenarios. The outcome hinges on which
companies filed for bankruptcy and when, and whether they would be
able to continue building cars and trucks while in reorganization --
assuming they don't go into liquidation.
``It would be unprecedented,'' says Stephen Stanley, chief economist
at RBS Greenwich Capital in Greenwich, Connecticut. ``So it's hard to
say exactly what would happen.''
`Cascade of Failures'
Still, a GM or Chrysler bankruptcy ``would be the start of a cascade
of failures,'' says Dennis Virag, president of Automotive Consulting
Group in Ann Arbor, Michigan. ``The economy will be in chaos within
weeks.''
The Bush administration said last week it will consider using money
from the $700 billion bank-bailout fund to prevent GM and Chrysler
from ``collapsing.'' On Dec. 11, the Senate rejected a short-term aid
package for the two automakers.
The effect of a bankruptcy on growth would be significant, although
economists say it won't be as great as in decades past. Gross domestic
product fell at a 4.2 percent annual pace in the fourth quarter of
1970 -- when, like today, the U.S. was in a recession -- following a
67-day nationwide strike against GM. Now, auto production accounts for
only about 3 percent of GDP, Stanley says.
``It would obviously be a sizeable jolt to the economy,'' he says.
``But the sector is not as important as it was.''
Even so, statistics from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann
Arbor show 239,000 people work in the U.S. for GM, Chrysler and Ford
Motor Co. The center, which does research for the auto companies,
estimates total job losses would reach 2.5 million if GM failed and
3.5 million if all three auto companies went out of business in 2009.
Retail, Manufacturing
That includes 1.4 million people in industries such as retailing that
aren't directly tied to manufacturing. Economists say each
manufacturing job is responsible for an additional six outside the
industry.
While many analysts say the Center for Automotive Research totals are
exaggerated, the number of jobs eliminated would still be staggering.
``I don't know that we'd lose all of those folks,'' said Mark Zandi,
chief economist at Moody's Corp.'s Economy.com. ``But over a million
in the first quarter of `09, I think, would be reasonable to expect.''
The total would depend on whether Americans keep buying cars and
trucks. While a Chapter 11 bankruptcy would allow the automakers to
continue making vehicles while they restructure, GM, Ford and Chrysler
have argued that deliveries would drop precipitously. Customers would
baulk at buying anything from a company that might not be around to
fix it, they say.
Plunging Sales
U.S. auto sales plunged 37 percent in November to a seasonally
adjusted annual rate of 10.2 million -- the lowest level in 26 years,
according to Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey -- compared
with 16.1 million a year earlier and 10.6 million in October.
Dealerships are already feeling the pinch. The National Automobile
Dealers Association, a trade group based in McLean, Virginia,
estimates that even without an automaker bankruptcy, 900 dealers will
close this year and 1,100 next year, most of them GM, Ford and
Chrysler franchises. The association says the three companies have
more than 13,000 dealers nationwide, employing more than 700,000
workers.
The ripples of failure would also spread quickly to auto- parts
makers. ``There's a fairly large number of suppliers out there very
squeezed on cash right now,'' says Jim Gillette, director of supplier
analysis for CSM Worldwide, an automotive consulting firm in
Northville, Michigan. ``Vehicle volumes are so low, regardless of a
bailout, that suppliers are still in trouble.''
Widespread Closures
Because many of these businesses work for all three companies,
widespread closures would lead to production problems at Ford, even if
it didn't file for bankruptcy protection, officials at the No. 2 U.S.
car company have said.
Parts makers including American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc. and
brake and powertrain-system makers ArvinMeritor Inc. and Hayes Lemmerz
International Inc. employ 526,000 workers, according to U.S. Labor
Department statistics, down more than 300,000 since 2000. Gillette
predicts another fifth of them will lose their jobs in the coming year
even if the automakers get bridge loans.
That will mean higher unemployment costs for states, which pay an
average of $279 a week for benefits for 26 weeks, according to
Jennifer Kaplan, a Labor Department economist. The payments can last
as long as 39 weeks in some states, including Ohio, where GM has more
than 11,000 employees, according to the company's Web site. The
jobless rate there was 7.2 percent in September.
Retiree Pensions
Hundreds of thousands of auto retirees who depend on the companies for
pensions and health insurance would also be affected. Bankruptcy could
throw them into federal government programs -- including the Pension
Benefit Guaranty Corporation and Medicare -- just when rescue packages
and government market actions are ballooning the federal budget.
The effect would be multiplied by an estimated decline in tax revenue
for federal, state and local governments of $108.1 billion over three
years if U.S. automakers' operations were cut by 50 percent, the
Center for Automotive Research says.
A collapse would quickly spread to financial markets, said Eric Selle,
an automotive-credit analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. in a research
report last month.
GM, Ford, Chrysler and their credit operations comprise 10 percent of
the high-yield bond market, he said, and any failure would have major
implications for credit-default swaps, asset- backed securities and
commercial paper. It would be ``the credit crisis, part II,'' he said.
Less Concern
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke signaled less concern about
the potential impact for the bond market in a Dec. 5 letter to Senate
Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd. The automakers' bonds
``already trade at 20 to 40 percent of par value, suggesting that many
of the losses that would be associated with a default have probably
already been recognized,'' he said.
Even if the automakers get loans to continue operations, the economy
is going to take a hit. All three companies have promised to cut
workers and close plants as a condition of receiving aid. General
Motors said Dec. 12 that it will close 30 plants for at least part of
next quarter, cutting production by 250,000 vehicles. Honda Motor Co.
said it will eliminate 119,000 vehicles from its North American
production plan.
That means ``suppliers are going to go under in the next few months,
even if a bridge loan comes in,'' Gillette says. ``The only solution
is to sell more cars.''
To contact the reporter on this story: Michael McKee in New York at
mmc...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 14, 2008 00:03 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
another free market darling is in trouble, conservatives/libertarians
will of course ignore this, Tata Motors Ltd. is in trouble, seeks
billions in loans
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=ax7j3F88q_JY
U.K. Government May Extend Aid to Carmakers as Job Threat Rises
By Craig Stirling
Dec. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s government is
considering financial aid for carmakers as the threat of job losses
mounts in an industry that almost 800,000 British workers depend on.
Business Secretary Peter Mandelson may offer loan guarantees to auto
companies’ finance arms to raise sales and grant a loan to Tata Motors
Ltd.’s Jaguar business, the Sunday Times reported today, without
saying how it obtained the information. One option is to use 400
billion pounds ($597 billion) set aside for the banking industry to
make low-cost loans, the newspaper said.
“What we need is short-term support, short-term access to cash now to
make sure that our companies stay alive,” Tony Woodley, joint leader
of Unite, the country’s biggest union, told Sky News today. “It was
right to bail out the banks and it’s absolutely appropriate now to do
something about manufacturing.”
U.S. President George W. Bush’s administration said last week it will
consider using money from the $700 billion bank bailout fund to
prevent automakers General Motors Corp. or Chrysler LLC from
“collapsing.” Brown wants to limit the fallout in Britain as the
recession threatens to push unemployment to an eight-year high.
The U.K. government is monitoring the situation with the car industry,
a spokesman for the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory
Reform said by phone today.
Exceptional Measures
Ministers have said they want to do all they can to help viable
businesses and the government needs to ensure it’s taking action to
help companies through difficult times, said the official, who
declined to be identified in line with U.K. government practice. Any
direct intervention would be exceptional, he said.
“People are worried about their jobs, they’re worried about their
homes, and that’s exactly when you need governments to step in and act
to do something about that to help people through it,” U.K. Treasury
Chief Secretary Yvette Cooper said in an interview on the BBC’s Sunday
AM show.
Any deal to guarantee car loans would be good news for the industry,
Denis Chick, Luton-based director of communications at GM’s U.K.
business, said in an interview.
“We can’t get money out of banks to loan to customers to buy cars,”
Chick said. “We are doing everything we can to avoid forced
redundancies.”
Brown said last week that the government is working on the “second
stage” of a rescue for banks, which are reluctant to lend even after
tapping into a 50 billion-pound program to bolster their capital. The
government now faces pressure to extend aid elsewhere as manufacturing
endures the worst stretch of contraction since 1980 and construction
slumps.
‘Difficult Time’
Total manufacturing jobs fell by 55,000 in the third quarter from a
year earlier to 2.86 million. Unemployment data due on Dec. 17 may
show claims for U.K. jobless benefit rose in November to the highest
since 2000, according to the median forecast of 24 economists in a
Bloomberg News survey.
The British auto industry supports 200,000 manufacturing jobs and
another 580,000 workers in other areas such as sales, servicing and
refueling, according to data on the Web site of the U.K. Society of
Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
Carmakers need “an ability to access liquidity at such a very, very
difficult time, and not just from the manufacturers here,” said
Woodley, speaking at Ellesmere Port in northwest England, where GM’s
U.K. division makes Vauxhall cars. “The component companies are going
to jettison tens of thousands of workers unless of course there’s a
clear plan.”
GM Measures
GM has offered staff at Ellesmere Port as much as nine months vacation
paid at 30 percent of salary as it seeks to cut costs and avoid job
losses.
The company’s two priorities are to sell cars and save money, and GM
isn’t tight for cash in Britain, Chick said.
Conservative Party lawmaker Michael Fallon, a member of Parliament’s
Treasury Committee, said the government should avoid favoritism in its
plans. The Conservatives had support of 41 percent of voters in a
YouGov Plc poll published in the Sunday Times today, compared with 35
percent for Brown’s Labour Party.
“We’ve got to be very, very careful not to single out particular
plants or indeed particular industries in a recession and give them
job protection or whatever against the changes that are necessary
while other people, particularly smaller businesses, go to the wall,”
Fallon told Sky News.
To contact the reporter on this story: Craig Stirling in London at
cstir...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 14, 2008 08:05 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
back in the U.S., back in U.S., back in the USSR, the new UNITED
SOCIALISTS SOUTHERN REPUBLICS(U.S.S.R.):Foreign Auto Plants Have
Received $3.6 Billion in Subsidies, Mostly From Southern States:vast
majority of subsidies to foreign auto plants were taxpayer gifts such
as property and sales tax exemptions, income tax credits,
infrastructure aid, land discounts, and training grants,"
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/foreign-auto-plants-have-received,654319.shtml
Foreign Auto Plants Have Received $3.6 Billion in Subsidies, Mostly
From Southern States
WASHINGTON, Dec. 12 GJF-auto-subsidy-data
WASHINGTON, Dec. 12 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Responding to many
queries, Good Jobs First today released its summary of state and local
subsidies given to foreign-owned auto assembly plants, totaling $3.6
billion.
"As elected officials debate aid for the Big 3, taxpayers have the
right to know the full extent of government involvement in America's
auto industry," said Greg LeRoy, GJF's executive director. "And while
proposed federal aid to the Big 3 would take the form of a loan, the
vast majority of subsidies to foreign auto plants were taxpayer gifts
such as property and sales tax exemptions, income tax credits,
infrastructure aid, land discounts, and training grants," he said.
Honda, Marysville OH, 1980, $27 million*
Nissan, Smyrna, TN, 1980, $233 million**
Toyota, Georgetown, KY, 1985, $147 million
Honda, Anna, OH, 1985, $27 million*
Subaru, Lafayette, IN, 1986, $94 million
Honda, East Liberty, OH, 1987, $27 million*
BMW, Spartanburg, SC, 1992, $150 million
Mercedes-Benz, Vance, AL, 1993, $258 million
Toyota, Princeton, IN, 1995, $30 million
Nissan, Decherd, TN, 1995, $200 million**
Toyota, Buffalo, WV, 1996, more than $15 million
Honda, Lincoln, AL, 1999, $248 million
Nissan, Canton, MS, 2000, $295 million
Toyota, Huntsville, AL, 2001, $30 million
Hyundai, Montgomery, AL, 2002, $252 million
Toyota, San Antonio, TX, 2003, $133 million
Kia, West Point, GA, 2006, $400 million
Honda, Greensburg, IN, 2006, $141 million
Toyota, Blue Springs, MS, 2007, $300 million
Volkswagen, Chattanooga, TN, 2008, $577 million
Total: more than $3.58 billion
* total of direct subsidies to all Honda facilities in Ohio
** includes about $200 million for expansions of Smyrna and Decherd
plants
List does not include joint ventures with U.S. companies
These data, drawn primarily from contemporary media accounts, are very
conservative. They do not account for inflation; some would be worth
far more in today's dollars. They do not include any estimate of
subsidies granted to hundreds of foreign-owned auto supply companies
that have located in the same areas, virtually all of which were also
heavily subsidized. Finally, they do not reflect later news accounts,
which often place higher subsidy values.
Good Jobs First is a non-profit, non-partisan research center
promoting best practices in economic development and smart growth,
based in Washington, DC, with offices in New York and Chicago.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mississippi, a state that is part of the united socialist southern
republics(U.S.S.R.) said:Gov. Haley Barbour said at a news conference
that the state has invested $200 million in the plant, while local
governments have invested about $35 million:Toyota Motor Corp. is
shelving its plans to build the popular Prius hybrid in Mississippi as
the slump in the auto industry continues to hobble the Japanese
carmaker known for it emphasis on fuel-sipping vehicles:conservatives
and libertarians will blame the U.A.W.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081215/toyota_plant.html
Toyota delays Mississippi assembly plant
Monday December 15, 5:18 pm
ET
Toyota indefinitely delays Blue Springs, Miss., Prius plant amid auto
industry downturn
NEW YORK (AP) -- Toyota Motor Corp. is shelving its plans to build the
popular Prius hybrid in Mississippi as the slump in the auto industry
continues to hobble the Japanese carmaker known for it emphasis on
fuel-sipping vehicles.
Toyota's plant under construction in Blue Springs, Miss., was
scheduled to begin production in 2010, marking the first time the gas-
electric Prius, which has been on sale for more than a decade, would
be built outside of Japan and China.
But Mike Goss, a spokesman for Toyota's U.S. arm, said Monday that
despite investing $300 million in the plant so far, the automaker is
delaying production there indefinitely because of the industrywide
downturn.
Construction of the plant is about 90 percent complete, and Toyota
will finish the building, Goss said. However, the installation of the
factory's equipment and machinery -- "the most time-consuming" element
of construction, he said -- is delayed indefinitely.
The roughly 100 people who have been hired to oversee construction and
install human resources plans at the plant will not lose their jobs
and will be assigned other duties, Goss said.
"Those people's jobs are safe, and we'll find things for them to do,"
he said.
Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour said at a news conference that the
state has invested $200 million in the plant, while local governments
have invested about $35 million. He said Toyota plans to work with
state and local governments to mitigate extra costs caused by the
delay.
"While we definitely are disappointed (and) wish it wasn't happening,
we understand that these companies like Toyota have to operate in the
private marketplace and have to do so successfully," Barbour said.
Although Toyota's U.S. sales have held up better than those of its
Detroit-based counterparts, the entire industry has seen a steep
plunge because consumers are skittish about making big purchases
during the recession, and it has been more difficult and more
expensive for some buyers to obtain financing in the tightened credit
markets.
Toyota reported its auto sales in the U.S. fell 34 percent in
November, while sales across the industry sank 37 percent. The
company's sales are down 13 percent for the first 11 months of the
year compared with the same period in 2007.
The Toyota City, Japan-based automaker has also seen volumes of its
once-popular hybrids plunge amid the collapse in gasoline prices. The
Prius was a brisk-seller earlier this year as a gallon of gas fetched
well over $4 a gallon, but U.S. sales plunged 48 percent in November.
Toyota's other hybrids, like gas-electric versions of the Camry sedan
and Highlander sport utility vehicle, are facing even bigger sales
declines.
There are also signs that Toyota is starting to feel the slowdown in
sales globally as demand in emerging markets like China, India and
Latin America weaken. Toyota last month slashed its profit forecast
for the fiscal year that ends in March to 550 billion yen ($5.9
billion), one-third of its previous year's earnings.
David Rumbarger, president of the Community Development Foundation, a
northeast Mississippi development group that helped lure Toyota to the
state, said he's disappointed with Toyota's decision to delay the
plant but understands it, given the industry's flagging sales.
"Obviously, in these economic times we need every job we can get, but
we're patient," he said.
Seven suppliers have announced plans to open near the Toyota plant in
Mississippi. Rumbarger said each will evaluate its own business plan
and decide when to open.
Toyota first announced plans for the Mississippi plant in 2007 and
said it would make Highlander SUVs, but the company said this summer
it would build the Prius there instead. Back then, Toyota couldn't
keep up with demand for the hybrid, which gets 46 miles per gallon on
average and remains the highest-mileage passenger car on the U.S.
market, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.
The plant, northwest of Tupelo, Miss., was initially to be up and
running in late 2009 or early 2010, but Toyota pushed the date back to
mid-2010 after seeing signs of a slowdown in the U.S. auto market
earlier this year.
Toyota has made other cutbacks recently to adapt to declining vehicle
demand. Last week, the automaker announced production cuts at
factories in Indiana, Kentucky and Canada, on top of other reductions
in November, when Toyota also cut several hundred contract workers.
The company has 14 manufacturing facilities in North America,
including one in California that is a joint-venture with General
Motors Corp.
Toyota isn't the only foreign automaker with plans to expand in the
U.S. Volkswagen AG said in July that that it would build its first
U.S. assembly plant in Chattanooga, Tenn.
VW officials have said they are sticking with their plans for the
plant to begin making cars in 2011 because that's is a critical part
of its goal to boost sales in the U.S. to 1 million a year by 2018, or
more than four times the number sold last year.
Kia Motors Corp. also plans to open an assembly plant at West Point,
Ga., in 2009.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vitter faulted for derailing auto bailout
by Jonathan Tilove, The Times-Picayune
Friday December 12, 2008, 10:09 PM
WASHINGTON -- Morgan Johnson, president of the United Auto Workers
local representing General Motors workers in Shreveport, said Friday
that Sen. David Vitter's role in blocking an auto bailout indicates
"he's chosen to play Russian roulette" with Louisiana jobs and the
national economy.
"I don't know what Sen. Vitter has against GM or the United Auto
Workers or the entire domestic auto industry; whatever it is, whatever
he thinks we've done, it's time for him to forgive us, just like Sen.
Vitter has asked the citizens of Louisiana to forgive him, " said
Johnson, president of Local 2166. Otherwise, Johnson said of Vitter,
it would appear, "He'd rather pay a prostitute than pay auto workers."
Johnson's comments are a reference to the revelation last year that
Vitter's name appeared in the phone records of a Washington
prostitution ring. At the time, Vitter responded that "several years
ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in
confession and marriage counseling."
Vitter, R-La., has gotten out in front of opposition to the bailout of
the auto industry, joining a handful of other Southern Republicans,
led by Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama.
This band of opponents prevailed Thursday in blocking action in the
Senate on a bailout package passed Wednesday by the House and backed
by the White House.
"We killed the really bad bailout that passed the House, " Vitter said
after the filibuster prevailed Thursday night. "Negotiations on a real
restructuring plan failed for one reason only: The union and the
Democratic leadership wouldn't agree to any wage concessions by a date
certain. None. It's just a shame."
Vitter said if the industry and the union can avoid making big
concessions until President Barack Obama and a more Democratic
Congress take office next year, they might figure they won't have to
make concessions at all.
"That's what I'm afraid of, " said Vitter, who has argued that absent
painful concessions, the U.S. automakers will never become profitable
and won't survive in the long run.
In remarks on the Senate floor, Vitter said: "I'm not trying to block
this package in spite of job losses that would occur if these
companies went down. I'm trying to block this because . . . this
package doesn't demand the fundamental core restructuring that is
absolutely necessary for these companies to survive."
Vitter and other Republicans supported an alternative package crafted
by Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., that would have required auto workers to
accept concessions sometime next year to bring their pay into line
with that of workers at the nonunion plants building cars for foreign
automakers in the United States. But UAW officials, who had already
accepted cuts in their current contract, wanted to postpone the deeper
concessions into 2011.
Sen. Mary Landrieu, a Democrat, who voted to bring the package to a
vote, said the House bill needed "significant work -- particularly in
ensuring that manufacturers make the reforms necessary to remain
solvent and not waste taxpayers' money, " but that "I was prepared to
stay in Washington through the holidays if needed to hammer out a
responsible, bipartisan compromise."
Landrieu also expressed concern for Shreveport's workers in light of
GM's announcement that it is extending the holiday shutdown of the
plant from just before Christmas through Feb. 15. Originally, work
would have resumed the third and fourth week of January.
Johnson said GM has made an enormous investment in the Shreveport
facility.
"I'm here to tell you the GM complex here is a true Louisiana
treasure, " Johnson said. "We're what's right with Louisiana."
But, he said, in the past 18 months, the Shreveport plant has gone
from employing about 3,000 union workers to a little better than 800
as GM idled lines because of the souring economy.
Johnson, whose wife also works at the plant but is facing a layoff,
said the image of U.S. auto workers as fat and happy is wrong. He said
most workers at the Shreveport plant earn about $50,000 to $60,000 a
year making Hummers and the small Chevrolet trucks.
"I can tell you as an absolute fact, our folks work very hard, and
they're tired at the end of the day, " he said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
correct, the united socialist southern republics(U.S.S.R.) are
lavishing socialist subsidies onto foreign entities, and driving hard
working american workers and american owned companies into bankruptcy.
this is the last shots being fired from WWII, and the conservatives
have backed the axis nations with tax payer money. the axis nations
are laughing all the way to the bank, and they did it without firing a
shot:)
and there are plenty of workers in the U.S.S.R.(the united socialist
southern republics), who work for american companies in the auto
industry, and the auto supplier industry, that pay federal taxes, only
to see their own state taxes used by the U.S.S.R.(united socialist
southern republics)under cut their jobs, and drive them out of work,
thus adding to americas budget woes, as well as the trade deficits. so
it matters what the U.S.S.R.(united socialist southern republics)
does, it affects us all:)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when is the lapdog media going to call out the conservative/
libertarians who are lying about the U.A.W., when are they going to
start labeling them as traitors, who are turning against their own,
and backing the axis nations:Japan's auto industry suffered another
blow Wednesday when Honda, its No. 2 carmaker, said it was slashing
its annual profit forecast, curtailing investment and slowing
production to ride out a global slowdown. Nissan, the nation's third-
biggest automaker, added to the dismal news by saying it was reducing
domestic production by another 78,000 vehicles and cutting 500
temporary workers:"Every day, the hardships we face are getting worse
and worse. And there are no signs of recovery," Honda President Takeo
Fukui said
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081217/as_japan_honda.html
Honda slashes profit forecast amid global downturn
Wednesday December 17, 8:51 am ET
By Yuri Kageyama, AP Business Writer
Honda slashes profit forecast, management pay to cope with global
downturn
TOKYO (AP) -- Japan's auto industry suffered another blow Wednesday
when Honda, its No. 2 carmaker, said it was slashing its annual profit
forecast, curtailing investment and slowing production to ride out a
global slowdown.
Nissan, the nation's third-biggest automaker, added to the dismal news
by saying it was reducing domestic production by another 78,000
vehicles and cutting 500 temporary workers.
What's more, the dollar fell to a fresh 13-year low against the yen,
further pinching the automakers' income from exports.
"Every day, the hardships we face are getting worse and worse. And
there are no signs of recovery," Honda President Takeo Fukui said at a
news conference that was hastily moved up two days from the initial
schedule.
Honda Motor Co. now expects 185 billion yen ($2.06 billion) in group
net profit for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009 -- less than a
third of the 600 billion yen it earned last fiscal year.
Tokyo-based Honda has already twice cut its forecast for the current
year. In October, it said it expected 485 billion yen ($5.4 billion)
in profit.
He said Honda's worldwide vehicle sales in 2008 are expected to reach
3.77 million units, almost unchanged from 2007. Sales are plunging in
the U.S. and other regions, with even previously healthy emerging
markets getting battered in recent months, according to Honda.
Underlining the tough times ahead, Fukui refused to set a vehicles
sales target for 2009 -- an unusual move for Honda.
To take responsibility for the faltering results, Honda directors will
take a 10 percent pay cut and further bonus reductions are likely, he
said.
Earlier this month, Honda said it was pulling out of the glamorous but
expensive Formula One racing to save costs and focus on its core car
business.
Mamoru Katou, auto analyst at Tokai Tokyo Research in Nagoya said
Honda was taking the right action in guarding against a shrinking
market.
"In about two years time, it can again expect growth. For now, it is
going on the defensive," he said. "It's making clear that it's
shifting gears."
Fukui said Honda will focus on green technology, especially hybrid
vehicles and small cars, to prepare for recovery in the long run. He
tried to strike an upbeat tone by announcing a joint venture with
Japanese battery maker GS Yuasa Corp. to develop next-generation
batteries for hybrid vehicles as part of the future growth program.
In recent years, the president's year-end news conference has been an
occasion for Honda to announce ambitious plans for growth in key
global regions. But this year, the news was somber as consumers around
the world hold back on car purchases and face tighter credit.
Honda lowered its sales forecast for the fiscal year through March by
13 percent to 10.4 trillion yen ($116.9 billion).
The company also trimmed annual investment spending by 60 billion yen
($674 million) to about 650 billion yen ($7.3 billion) to cut costs
during hard times, including scrapping plans to introduce the Acura
luxury line in Japan by 2010. Plans to develop a successor to the NSX
sportscar were also canceled.
Honda had already said it was cutting 760 temporary workers in Japan,
or nearly 18 percent of its Japan temporary work force of 4,300. On
Wednesday, Honda said another 450 temporary workers in Japan will be
reduced through February.
The plunging dollar, meanwhile, spells more trouble for Japan's
automakers. For every yen the dollar declines, Honda loses about 18
billion yen ($200 million) in operating profit. In trading Wednesday,
the dollar fell as low as 88.15 yen.
To cope with sluggish sales worldwide, Fukui said Honda will halt
expansion in Japan as well as abroad, including Turkey and India.
Honda shares closed down 4.2 percent at 1,891 yen in Tokyo.
With its plans to cut 78,000 vehicles, Nissan Motor Co. has now
production by 225,000 vehicles over the last year, 16 percent of its
initial production forecast for 1.398 million vehicles for the fiscal
year.
Toyota is also reducing production. In a key setback, Toyota said
earlier this week that it's delaying indefinitely the start of
production at its plant in Blue Springs, Mississippi. The plant had
been scheduled to begin in 2010, marking the first time the gas-
electric Prius hybrid would be built outside of Japan and China.
Japan's automakers have avoided the serious woes of its cash-strapped
U.S. rivals, General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC,
which are asking for a government bailout.
But the recent drop in U.S. sales has hurt Japanese carmakers, too. In
November, when U.S. auto sales plunged 37 percent to their worst level
in more than 26 years, Honda's vehicle sales sank 32 percent from a
year earlier, Nissan's were down 42 percent and Toyota's 34 percent.
Fukui said he hoped the Detroit automakers would get some kind of
rescue.
"A collapse of any of the Big Three would be a negative for all the
automakers in the world, including Honda," he said. "It is best that
they return to sound health."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
here it comes, the results of conservative treason in backing
foreigners.
the united socialist southern republics(U.S.S.R.) are
lavishing socialist subsidies onto foreign entities, and driving hard
working american workers and american owned companies into bankruptcy.
this is the last shots being fired from WWII, and the conservatives
have backed the axis nations with tax payer money. the axis nations
are laughing all the way to the bank, and they did it without firing a
shot:)
and there are plenty of workers in the U.S.S.R.(the united socialist
southern republics), who work for american companies in the auto
industry, and the auto supplier industry, that pay federal taxes, only
to see their own state taxes used by the U.S.S.R.(united socialist
southern republics)under cut their jobs, and drive them out of work,
thus adding to americas budget woes, as well as the trade deficits. so
it matters what the U.S.S.R.(united socialist southern republics)
does, it affects us all:)
in every country there are those who are bound and determined,
predestined lets say to commit treason, like prescott bush.
what you need to do is keep posting the truth, let the traitors
answer you in public for all to see. it is better to have them
shooting their mouths off in public, so as to educate the up coming
generations on what to look out for in their neighbors, and their
politicians.
the conservative/libertarian politician cannot even generate a job
where you ask "do you want fries with that meal" and the generation
that just got out of the schools and universities, know it. we beat
the traitors with a mandate. its time to get the "garbage in, garbage
out folk" in the margins, where they belong:)
when is the lapdog media going to call out the conservative/
libertarians who are lying about the U.A.W., when are they going to
start labeling them as traitors who are turning against their own, and
backing the axis nations:Japan's auto industry suffered another blow
Wednesday when Honda, its No. 2 carmaker, said it was slashing its
annual profit forecast, curtailing investment and slowing production
to ride out a global slowdown. Nissan, the nation's third-biggest
automaker, added to the dismal news by saying it was reducing domestic
production by another 78,000 vehicles and cutting 500 temporary
workers:"Every day, the hardships we face are getting worse and worse.
And there are no signs of recovery," Honda President Takeo Fukui said
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081217/bs_nm/us_chrysler_shutdown
Chrysler says to shut down all production for month
DETROIT (Reuters) – Citing a credit crisis and dwindling sales,
Chrysler LLC on Wednesday said it would shut down all of its
manufacturing operations from the end of this week for at least a
month.
The blanket shutdown marked a deepening of the financial crisis for
the embattled U.S. auto industry and came as Chrysler and its larger
rival General Motors Corp both seek to shore up cash as they seek a
federal bailout they say they need to survive.
Chrysler, considered the weakest of the Detroit automakers, made the
announcement on its plant shutdown in a letter sent on Wednesday to
its employees, suppliers and the United Auto Workers union that was
also posted on its website.
Chrysler said its dealers were getting car shoppers into showrooms but
losing between 20 percent and 25 percent of those potential sales
because of the lack of consumer financing for new car purchases.
"As a result of the financial crisis, the automotive market remains
depressed due to the continued lack of consumer credit for potential
buyers," the automaker said in a statement.
Separately, Chrysler said its finance arm could be forced to stop
making loans dealers use to finance inventory because the dealers have
been pulling money out from a fund that helps finance the floorplan
loans.
The shutdown by Chrysler will idle plants in the United States, Canada
and Mexico producing vehicles for its Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge brands.
The more than 30,000 Chrysler workers in the United States represented
by the UAW receive nearly full benefits and wages during plant
shutdowns, but labor costs represent only about 10 percent of the
total cost of the average vehicle.
By idling plants, Chrysler and other automakers can cut costs on
inventory, components and related charges such as utilities for
operating large production facilities.
The moves also keep finished vehicle inventories from piling up on
dealer lots and increasing the pressure for even greater discounting
to consumers.
GM said last week that it was cutting its first-quarter production
schedule by 60 percent compared with the same period a year earlier.
Privately held Chrysler is 80-percent owned by private equity firm
Cerberus Capital Management.
Chrysler's sales plunged 47 percent in November and were down almost
28 percent for the first eleven months of 2008.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
japans vehicle sales are in a free fall, are conservatives and
libertarians stunned? naw, they are to stupid to understand:``The
plight facing Honda is affecting all automakers at present, and its
pessimism is shared by many others in the industry,'', chairman of the
auto group and of Honda, said at a press conference in Tokyo.
``Governments worldwide should act to support the entire economy.''
conservatives are to busy blaming the U.A.W. to see what is going on
in the real world.
.http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aybzLy8MUStU
Japan's Vehicle Sales May Fall to Lowest in 31 Years (Update2)
By Naoko Fujimura and Tetsuya Komatsu
Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Japan's vehicle sales next year may fall to the
lowest in 31 years as unemployment and the economic slowdown keep
drivers out of showrooms.
Sales of trucks, buses, cars and minicars, may fall 4.9 percent to
4.86 million vehicles in 2009 from an estimated 5.11 million this
year, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association said in a
statement today. The tally would be the lowest since 1978, when
automakers sold 4.68 million units.
Honda Motor Co., Japan's second-largest automaker, yesterday cut its
annual profit outlook 62 percent as the global recession and tight
credit curb new car demand. Japan is in its first recession since
2001, as its biggest companies including Sony Corp. and Toyota Motor
Corp. cut thousands of jobs.
``The plight facing Honda is affecting all automakers at present, and
its pessimism is shared by many others in the industry,'' Ian
Fletcher, a London-based analyst at IHS Global Insight, said in a
report yesterday.
Japan's vehicle market has also shrunk from its peak of 7.78 million
units in 1990 because of an aging population.
Vehicle sales, excluding minicars, may total 3 million next year, down
from an estimated 3.23 million in 2008, the Tokyo- based association
said.
`No Where Close'
The car market ``is nowhere close to recovery,'' Satoshi Aoki,
chairman of the auto group and of Honda, said at a press conference in
Tokyo. ``Governments worldwide should act to support the entire
economy.''
The Bank of Japan's Tankan survey on Dec. 15 showed confidence among
large manufacturers fell the most since the first oil shock 34 years
ago as the global recession weakened exports.
Consumers in Japan who replaced vehicles in the year ended March 31
had driven them for an average of 7.1 years beforehand.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan Motor Co., Japan's three biggest automakers,
each posted at least 30 percent declines in U.S. sales last month as
the world's largest economy lost more than 1 million jobs this year.
Industrywide vehicle sales fell to the lowest annual rate in 26 years
in November.
The U.S. auto market, the world's largest, may total 12.5 million
vehicles next year, Aoki said. Sales this year may be as low as 13.3
million, he said.
The plunge in sales is forcing domestic automakers General Motors
Corp. and Chrysler LLC to seek emergency government loans to avoid
running out of cash.
Japanese vehicle manufacturers plan to cut more than 13,000 domestic
contract workers by March 31 because of waning demand.
``We had to make this painful decision to maintain competitiveness''
in the global auto industry, Aoki said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Naoko Fujimura in Tokyo at
nfuj...@bloomberg.net; Tetsuya Komatsu in Tokyo at
teko...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 18, 2008 00:25 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
its looking grim for Germanys car companies, are conservatives and
libertarians stunned? naw, they are to stupid to understand, to busy
blaming the u.a.w.:VW Workers Head Home for Extended Break as Slump
Batters Sales
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aMUaDFLYQPtw
VW Workers Head Home for Extended Break as Slump Batters Sales
By Andreas Cremer
Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen AG workers head home for an extended
Christmas shutdown today as Europe’s biggest carmaker struggles to
maintain sales in the global recession.
In the north German city of Wolfsburg, VW’s birthplace, production
ceased at 6 a.m., leaving 44,000 employees with a three-week holiday,
five days more than usual at this time of year. The closures, ordered
after sales declined 17 percent last month, will also idle 54,000
employees at seven other plants.
“How am I supposed to enjoy the extra time with my family?” mechanic
Manfred Kroeter, 56, asked as he arrived for a late shift at
Wolfsburg, where he’s worked on the assembly line for 12 years. The
father of two fears the vacation may foreshadow shorter hours and
lower pay. “It’s hard to predict anything these days, least of all how
the paycheck will pan out.”
The drop in demand is Wolfsburg’s biggest challenge since 1993, when
Volkswagen used a four-day workweek at reduced pay to cut expenses,
Mayor Rolf Schnellecke said in an interview. The city of 120,000
people, set up for VW workers under Adolf Hitler’s Nazi regime in the
late 1930s, “remains totally dependent” on the carmaker which, with
its suppliers, accounts for about two-thirds of the working population
of 90,000, said Siegfried Kayser, head of the local IHK industry
group.
Detroit, Gothenburg
Wolfsburg hasn’t suffered like Detroit, where the Big Three U.S.
automakers are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, or Gothenburg,
Sweden, where job cuts at Ford Motor Co.’s Volvo car unit and
truckmaker Volvo AB have devastated the economy. The extended holiday
at eight of nine VW plants pales in comparison with cuts at GM’s
Vauxhall unit in the U.K., where workers can take nine-months leave at
30 percent of salary.
Volkswagen managed the best performance among major auto companies in
Europe last month, with sales down 16 percent versus an average drop
of 26 percent. General Motors Corp.’s European registrations tumbled
39 percent and Chrysler LLC’s performance was so bad that it has only
0.4 percent of the market.
VW’s ninth plant, an engine factory in Chemnitz, close the Czech
border, won’t have longer holidays, spokesman Stefan Ohletz said. With
1,000 workers, the site will keep making fuel- efficient, four-
cylinder engines, even on Christmas Eve, New Year’s Eve and New Year’s
Day “to satisfy unbroken demand.”
Volkswagen also has a broader international presence than its closest
European competitor, PSA Peugeot Citroen, and a model range including
the Golf and Polo that’s better suited to demands for fuel efficiency
than offerings from German luxury- car makers Daimler AG and
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG.
Parts Suppliers
Still, the lengthier winter break for thousands of workers is chilling
to Wolfsburg leaders and auto-parts makers dependent on Volkswagen. At
Kamei Gmbh & Co., a supplier of roof boxes and plastic car parts,
business dropped by as much as 25 percent in October and November,
Managing Director Marian Meier-Andrae said.
“Customers have become extremely cautious,” said Meier- Andrae, whose
Wolfsburg company employs 75 people and may slow production if orders
subside early next year. “It’s a vicious environment,” the 33-year-old
added.
No more than “a handful” of 9,200 companies in and around Wolfsburg
lack business ties with Volkswagen, Kayser said. “It’s the city’s
lifeline.”
Dozens of unsold Volkswagen vehicles lining the railway track near
Fallersleben, west of town, are “heralds of a possible crisis,” said
Kayser, drawing comparisons to the early 1990s, when hundreds of
unwanted cars were parked in overflow spaces at the VW factory.
“Certain crisis effects are already evident although the worst may
still come,” the 63-year-old said.
Looking Grim
Mayor Schnellecke, speaking from a spacious 1950s office overlooking
the city’s main square, said there’s a “grim outlook” for local
business. “There’s no denying that we’re all faced with difficult
times.”
Car sales in Germany may drop 6.5 percent next year to the lowest
since reunification in 1990, the VDA automakers group has said.
Daimler, the maker of Mercedes-Benz cars, and BMW each suffered a 25
percent drop in November sales and have put employees on extended
vacations. BMW is eliminating 5,000 temporary jobs.
Volkswagen is bracing for a 10 percent drop in car sales in 2009,
though it stands by a goal of boosting deliveries and profit this
year, Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn said Dec. 15,
according to Sueddeutsche Zeitung. The manufacturer still plans to
start building its first U.S. plant next year.
According to Thomas Schmall, chief executive officer of VW’s Brazil
unit, 2009 may be the worst year in 20. “The United States, Brazil,
China -- there isn’t any market without some sort of turbulence,” he
said Dec. 16.
Still, Winterkorn says VW has proven resilient. “So far, we’ve been
able to counteract through flexible production patterns,” the CEO
said, according to Sueddeutsche. “Other measures are currently not
necessary though cannot be excluded.”
That doesn’t ease mechanic Kroeter’s worried mind.
“Volkswagen may be better positioned than its rivals but it’s in no
way protected. 2009 will be a tough year.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Andreas Cremer in Berlin at
acr...@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: December 18, 2008 04:35 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just as i suspected, he feigns worry, its just a ploy to run out the
clock. his conservative fat cat pals on wall street got 8 trillion
dollars at the drop of a hat. are there any middle class conservatives
left, if there are, get out the butterfly nets, they are insane.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aqK20FU9Qv5Y&refer=home
Bush ‘Worried’ About Potential for ‘Disorderly’ Auto Bankruptcy
By Roger Runningen
Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush said today he is
worried about the possibility of a “disorderly bankruptcy” of the U.S.
auto industry.
“I’m worried about a disorderly bankruptcy and what it would do to the
psychology of the markets,” Bush said during a forum at the American
Enterprise Institute, a research policy organization in Washington.
General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. are shutting
about 59 factories over the next month as they struggle to adapt to
the worst sales in 26 years. The Bush administration agreed Dec. 12 to
consider rescue options, including use of the $700 billion Troubled
Asset Relief Program.
“I haven’t made up my mind” on a plan, Bush said. He said he didn’t
want to “dump a major catastrophe” on his successor, President-elect
Barack Obama. Still, he said, he also is “worried about putting good
money after bad.”
Asked whether a Chapter 11 bankruptcy court restructuring is an
option, the president replied: “I think under normal circumstances, no
question, the bankruptcy court is the best way to sort through credit
and debt and restructuring.
“These aren’t normal circumstances; that’s the problem,’ he said.
GM and Chrysler are seeking $14 billion to keep operating through
March 31. Without a cash infusion the largest U.S. automaker and No. 3
Chrysler may be only weeks from bankruptcy, threatening millions of
jobs. Ford Motor Co. isn’t seeking emergency aid.
‘Very Close’ to Decision
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said earlier today that the
administration is “very close” to deciding on a bailout plan for the
U.S. auto industry and managed bankruptcy is one option.
“The president is not going to allow a disorderly collapse of the
companies. That is not an option,” Perino told reporters at a
briefing.
Asked if managed bankruptcy is an option, Perino said “it’s in the
spectrum.”
“There’s an orderly way to do bankruptcies that provides more of a
soft landing,” Perino said. “That would be one of the options. I’m not
saying that’s necessarily what would be announced.”
“We’re very close” to a decision, although there will be no
announcement today, she said. The administration is “taking a few days
to get information from the companies,” she said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Roger Runningen in Washington
at rrunn...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 18, 2008 11:17 EST
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
america burns as the conservatives fiddle, its a strategy to run out
the clock in favor of foreigners:General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co.
and Chrysler LLC will shutter about 59 factories over the next month
as they struggle to adapt to the worst sales in 26 years. The White
House said a decision on a bailout won’t come today
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=adsSI3tS5wgM&refer=home
GM, Ford, Chrysler Idle Plants as Bush Weighs Bailout (Update1)
By Greg Bensinger and Mike Ramsey
Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and
Chrysler LLC will shutter about 59 factories over the next month as
they struggle to adapt to the worst sales in 26 years. The White House
said a decision on a bailout won’t come today.
The closings show how far automakers are going to conserve cash and
prune output under the pressures of a shrinking U.S. market, dwindling
access to credit for dealers and demands for advance payments by some
GM and Chrysler parts suppliers.
“No one is immune,” said Ed Kim, director of industry analysis for
consulting firm AutoPacific Inc. in Tustin, California. The industry
is “imploding to a degree I’ve never imagined could happen, and at a
speed I’d never expected.”
GM, the biggest U.S. automaker, and No. 3 Chrysler are counting on
President George W. Bush to approve emergency loans to help them stave
off a collapse that would threaten millions of jobs. Without $14
billion in federal aid, the manufacturers will be out of money by
early 2009, they say.
Bush said today he was “worried about a disorderly bankruptcy and what
it would do to the psychology of the markets.”
While bankruptcy court would be best under “normal circumstances” for
automaker restructuring, “these aren’t normal circumstances,” Bush
said during a forum at the American Enterprise Institute, a policy
research organization in Washington.
“I haven’t made up my mind” on a plan, he said.
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said earlier there would be no
announcement today on an industry rescue.
Closing Plants
GM, Ford and Chrysler began another round of pullbacks yesterday,
burdened by U.S. sales declines this year of 22 percent, 19 percent
and 28 percent, respectively, compared with the 16 percent
industrywide average.
Chrysler will shut all 30 of its plants for at least a month starting
Dec. 19, and Ford plans to idle nine of 15 North American assembly
plants in the first week of January.
Ford said its move was part of a previously announced plan to reduce
first-quarter North American production by 38 percent. The second-
biggest U.S. automaker acted after Detroit-based GM’s Dec. 12 decision
to cut 250,000 units of production from its first-quarter North
American plans, affecting 20 plants. That was equal to almost 30
percent of GM’s 2008 first-quarter sales.
GM said yesterday that a new $370 million factory making engines for
the Chevrolet Volt electric car is being delayed to conserve cash.
‘Bad Times’
“You need to have a hoard of cash built up from the good times to get
you through the bad times,” said Dennis Virag, president of Automotive
Consulting Group in Ann Arbor, Michigan. “The bad times are here, the
bad sales are here and GM and Chrysler just don’t have the cash.”
GM, which reported having $16.2 billion as of Sept. 30, needs at least
$11 billion to pay monthly bills. Chrysler ended last quarter with
$6.1 billion and needs at least $3 billion to operate, Chief Executive
Officer Robert Nardelli told Congress on Nov. 18. Ford has said it
doesn’t need emergency aid.
The Wall Street Journal said yesterday that Chrysler owner Cerberus
Capital Management LP reopened talks on a GM merger. Spokesman Tony
Cervone said the company isn’t in negotiations and hadn’t altered its
Nov. 7 position to end discussions on a “strategic acquisition” while
it seeks government loans. Chrysler spokeswoman Shawn Morgan also said
the company wasn’t in merger talks.
GM fell 67 cents, or 15 percent, to $3.70 at 2:08 p.m. in New York
Stock Exchange composite trading after Dow Jones Newswires reported
that lender GMAC LLC’s Residential Capital mortgage unit may be
considering filing for bankruptcy.
Ford slid 34 cents, or 11 percent, to $2.81. GM’s 82 percent plunge
this year through yesterday was the most among the 30 stocks in the
Dow Jones Industrial Average. Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford was down
53 percent.
Lending Shutoff
Chrysler Financial, the automaker’s credit arm, said it may
temporarily halt the loans used by dealers to buy vehicles as the
retailers drain $60 million a day from the account that helps finance
their borrowing.
GM is awaiting the results of GMAC’s bid to convert to a bank through
a debt swap in order to tap the Troubled Asset Relief Program, the
bank-bailout fund that Bush may now use for the automakers. Detroit-
based GMAC provides financing for about 75 percent of GM’s inventory.
GM and Auburn Hills, Michigan-based Chrysler both have been pressed by
a small number of suppliers for cash payments for parts on concern
that the automakers might file for bankruptcy, people familiar with
the matter said last week.
The Pontiac division at GM may be pared to a single model from six
following a drop in sales every year since 1999, Mark LaNeve, North
American sales chief, said in an interview.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan
North American output for Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and
Nissan Motor Co., Japan’s three biggest automakers, is being reduced,
too, down more than 300,000 units from a year earlier. All three have
announced cuts to scheduled production.
Toyota stopped assembly work at its San Antonio pickup truck plant for
15 weeks this year because of rising inventory and this week, it
indefinitely halted construction of a Mississippi plant that was to
produce Prius hybrids by 2010.
“When you’ve got the economy in the situation that it is now, it’s not
just the Big 3’s customers that are affected,” said AutoPacific’s Kim.
“It’s everyone’s customers. It is all interconnected.”
To contact the reporters on this story: Mike Ramsey in Southfield,
Michigan, at mram...@bloomberg.net; Greg Bensinger in New York at
gbens...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 18, 2008 14:10 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From The Los Angeles Times, 12/18/08:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-raynor18-2008dec...
UAW busting, Southern style
Foreign carmakers are enlisting the help of GOP senators from states
in the South to break the union.
By Bruce Raynor
The foreign nonunion auto companies located in the South have a plan
to reduce wages and benefits at their factories in the United States.
And to do it, they need to destroy the United Auto Workers.
Last week, Senate Republicans from some Southern states went to work
trying to do just that, on the foreign car companies' behalf.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Sen. Bob Corker (
R-Tenn.) and Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala.) -- representatives from
states that subsidize companies such as Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota and
Nissan -- first tried to force the UAW to take reductions in wages and
benefits as a condition for supporting the auto industry bailout bill.
When the UAW refused, those senators torpedoed the bill.
They claimed that they couldn't support the bill without specifics
about how wages would be "restructured."
They didn't, however, require such specificity when it came to bailing
out the financial sector.
Their grandstanding, and the government's generally lackluster
response to the auto crisis, highlight many of the problems that have
caused our current economic mess:
the lack of concern about manufacturing, the privileged way our
government treats the financial sector, and political support given to
companies that attempt to slash worker's wages.
When one compares how the auto industry and the financial sector are
being treated by Congress, the double standard is staggering.
In the financial sector, employee compensation makes up a huge
percentage of costs.
According to the New York state comptroller, it accounted for more
than 60% of 2007 revenues for the seven largest financial firms in New
York.
At Goldman Sachs, for example, employee compensation made up 71% of
total operating expenses in 2007.
In the auto industry, by contrast, autoworker compensation makes up
less than 10% of the cost of manufacturing a car.
Hundreds of billions were given to the financial-services industry
with barely a question about compensation; the auto bailout, however,
was sunk on this issue alone.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger realized that the existence of the
union was under attack, which is why he refused to give in to the
Senate Republicans' demands that the UAW make further concessions.
I say "further" because the union has already conceded a lot.
Its 2007 contract introduced a two-tier contract to pay new hires $15
an hour (instead of $28) with no defined pension plan and dramatic
cuts to their health insurance.
In addition, the UAW agreed that healthcare benefits for existing
retirees would be transferred from the auto companies to an
independent trust.
With the transferring of the healthcare costs, the labor cost gap
between the Big Three and the foreign transplants will be almost
eliminated by the end of the current contracts.
These concessions go some distance toward leveling the playing field
(retiree costs are still a factor for the Big Three).
But what the foreign car companies want is to level -- which is to
say, wipe out -- the union.
They currently discourage their workforce from organizing by paying
wages comparable to the Big Three's UAW contracts.
In fact, Toyota's per-hour wages are actually above UAW wages.
However, an internal Toyota report, leaked to the Detroit Free Press
last year, reveals that the company wants to slash $300 million out of
its rising labor costs by 2011.
The report indicated that Toyota no longer wants to "tie [itself] so
closely to the U.S. auto industry."
Instead, the company intends to benchmark the prevailing manufacturing
wage in the state in which a plant is located.
The Free Press reported that in Kentucky, where the company is
headquartered, this wage is $12.64 an hour, according to federal labor
statistics, less than half Toyota's $30-an-hour wage.
If the companies, with the support of their senators, can wipe out or
greatly weaken the UAW, they will be free to implement their plan.
But their plan will not work. The Bush administration is likely to
keep the Big Three alive long enough for President-elect Barack Obama
to construct a real solution.
Democrats and even most Republicans understand that a nation that has
already lost 2 million jobs this year cannot afford to put at risk 3
million more.
What the economy needs now is rising wages so the country can get on
the path of wage-driven consumption growth.
That means stronger unions.
Indeed, I believe eventually it will mean the unionization of the
entire U.S. auto industry.
Bruce Raynor is the general president of Unite Here, a union of
465,000 workers in the apparel, textile, laundry, food service,
distribution, hotel and gaming industries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blog.mlive.com/capitolchronicles/2008/12/big_three_bridge_loan...
December 19, 2008
Big Three bridge loan fallout: The GOP kisses the Rust Belt goodbye
by Susan J. Demas | Capitol Chronicles
Do the Republicans ever plan to win Michigan again?
How about Ohio, Illinois or even Indiana?
Before the gang of GOP senators killed the $14 billion bridge loan for
Chrysler and General Motors last week, they unleashed an ugly Southern
snobbery about us Rust Belt rubes.
And they just might have strangled their chances in here for years to
come.
Let's not forget the GOP just lost the entire region to the man who
will become the first African-American president, save for West
Virginia.
The Republicans only have one governorship here, in Indiana.
Evidently, U.S. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell & Co. want to
finish the job.
So they decided to bludgeon the Big Three while they were down and
suffocate the United Auto Workers while they were at it.
Maybe they sincerely believe the domestic autos will be better off in
bankruptcy.
Maybe they expected President Bush to come to the rescue all along.
Maybe they really think Honda and Toyota plants in their states would
blossom if the domestics died, even though company executives warned
they'd suffer because many of their suppliers would go under.
Maybe they were genuinely offended by the idea of the government
messing with capitalism, although that didn't stop many of them from
dumping $700 billion in the laps of Wall Street investment bankers.
But a leaked memo from the Senate GOP reveals it was all about
politics and payback to the unions:
"Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against
organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it."
So much for principle.
It's nice to know that our friends from Dixie were willing to play
Russian roulette with 3 million jobs, spark a depression in the
Midwest and cost taxpayers four times as much money as we'd be out
with the bridge loan.
Why not?
Serves the evil UAW right.
Look, the loan is unpopular nationally, so this may be a good tactic.
But it is insanely poor strategy if Republicans want to stay
competitive in the Rust Belt and its pool of 151 electoral votes.
You can't just write off a region and expect to be a national party.
That's why Barack Obama competed hard in the South and West.
It paid off when he piled up an electoral landslide and padded
Democrats' margins in Congress.
Michigan Republican Party Chair Saul Anuzis gets this.
His main appeal in his quest to head the Republican National Committee
is that he's only guy who knows how to get Reagan Democrats back.
Presumably, it's not by stripping them of jobs and sneering that it's
their fault.
Midwest Democrats will retaliate in kind for the Big Three and are
chomping at the bit to finish off Republicans in 2010 and beyond.
Gov. Jennifer Granholm is already on the attack, blasting senators
willing to risk a depression as "un-American" and questioning their
loyalty to foreign companies at the expense of U.S. workers.
It's a crude rhetorical flourish on steroids, but it's enough to earn
a megaphone on "Meet the Press."
That kind of red-blooded American chest-beating puts her on the
offensive and makes Republicans spluttering to defend their taupe
Toyota Camrys look like girly-men.
Translation:
Democrats strong and patriotic.
Republicans weak and love foreigners.
Shamelessly jingoistic, sure, but it effectively flips the post-9/11
conventional wisdom on its head.
______________________________________________________
as in 1929, free trade is a dead man walking:Japan Exports Plunge
Record 27%:Honda, Toyota Motor Corp. and Sony Corp. are among the
companies that are shedding thousands of workers and closing
production lines as profits dwindle. Car exports slid 32 percent last
month, the most ever, stupid conservatives and libertarians, blame the
U.A.W.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHMpJiTOIn10&refer=home
Japan Exports Plunge Record 27% as Recession Deepens (Update1)
By Toru Fujioka
Dec. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s exports plunged the most on record in
November as global demand for cars and electronics collapsed,
signaling more factory shutdowns and job cuts are likely as the
recession deepens.
Exports fell 26.7 percent from a year earlier, the Finance Ministry
said today in Tokyo. Economists surveyed by Bloomberg News predicted a
22.3 percent decline. The drop was the sharpest since comparable data
were made available in 1980.
The Bank of Japan lowered its benchmark interest rate to 0.1 percent
last week after business sentiment dropped the most since 1975 and the
yen surged to a 13-year high against the dollar. Honda Motor Co. said
last week that it may shift manufacturing overseas if the currency
strengthens further.
“Japan’s export crash is finally upon us, and this is the worst thing
that could happen,” said Yoshiki Shinke, a senior economist at Dai-
Ichi Life Research Institute in Tokyo. “The recession will be very
severe as companies adjust investment, production and labor.”
The yen traded at 89.70 per dollar as of 9:35 a.m. in Tokyo from 89.50
before the report was published and 87.14 on Dec. 17, the strongest
since 1995. The Nikkei 225 Stock Average edged 0.6 percent higher
after the U.S. government agreed to provide General Motors Corp. and
Chrysler LLC with emergency loans.
Gross domestic product shrank in the past two quarters, sending the
world’s second-largest economy into the first recession since 2001.
The government last week forecast zero growth for the year starting
April 1.
Toyota, Sony
Honda, Toyota Motor Corp. and Sony Corp. are among the companies that
are shedding thousands of workers and closing production lines as
profits dwindle. Car exports slid 32 percent last month, the most
ever, and semiconductors slumped 29 percent, the ministry said.
Today’s report showed the global recession is spreading to the
emerging markets that propped up exports earlier this year as demand
from the U.S. and Europe evaporated. Exports to Asia fell 27 percent,
the most since 1986, after the first decline in six years in October.
Shipments to China, Japan’s largest trading partner, fell 25 percent,
the steepest drop in 13 years.
“There are no markets that can make up for the drop in demand for
Japanese-made goods,” Dai-Ichi Life’s Shinke said.
Exports to the U.S. tumbled a record 34 percent, and those to Europe
slid 31 percent, the second-most ever.
Imports fell 14.4 percent, the first decline in 14 months, as oil
costs eased and the yen gained. That wasn’t enough to prevent a trade
deficit of 223.4 billion yen (2.5 billion), the third shortfall in
four months.
Yen’s Damage
The yen strengthened 25 percent against the dollar this year as the
global financial crisis prompted investors to sell riskier assets
purchased with money borrowed in the currency.
Honda President Takeo Fukui last week said the government should take
action to halt the yen’s rise. Every 1 yen gain against the dollar
cuts Honda’s annual operating profit by 18 billion yen ($201 million),
according to the automaker. About 90 percent of Honda’s revenue comes
from overseas.
Companies are also struggling to obtain funding as the market turmoil
dissuades investors from buying corporate debt. To help businesses get
financing, the Bank of Japan last week decided to buy commercial paper
for the first time.
Sales at home are unlikely to make up for the collapse in demand from
abroad. Households, whose confidence is at a record low, pared
spending in each of the eight months to October as wage growth
stagnated and job prospects worsened.
The Finance Ministry last week submitted an extra budget for the year
ending March that includes 2 trillion yen in cash handouts for
households as Prime Minister Taro Aso tries to spur spending. That may
be too little, too late, economists say.
“Japan’s economy has never weaned itself off of the overbearing
reliance on exports, and especially to the U.S.,” said Kirby Daley,
senior strategist and head of capital introductions at Newedge Group.
“Japan did nothing to prepare itself” for the collapse in demand from
abroad.
To contact the reporter on this story: Toru Fujioka in Tokyo at
tfuj...@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: December 21, 2008 19:38 EST
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
toyota, the darling of the conservative traitors in the american
government, is set to lose a few bucks:) Toyota forecast an operating
loss of 150 billion yen ($1.66 billion):conservatives/libertarians are
to stupid to notice, they are to busy blaming the U.A.W.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081222/as_japan_toyota.html
Toyota projects first operating loss since 1941
Monday December 22,
8:17 am ET
By Yuri Kageyama, AP Business Writer
Toyota projects first operating loss since 1941 due to slumping demand
and strong yen
NAGOYA, Japan (AP) -- Toyota Motor Corp. slashed its earnings forecast
Monday, projecting that it would report its first annual operating
loss for the fiscal year through March -- its first such loss since it
began reporting results in 1941.
ADVERTISEMENT
Battered by falling demand from consumers around the world and a
surging yen, Toyota and other Japanese automakers have been reducing
earnings outlooks and cutting workers.
"The change that has hit the world economy is of a critical scale that
comes once in a hundred years," President Katsuaki Watanabe said at
the company's Nagoya office. The drop in vehicle sales over the last
month was "far faster, wider and deeper than expected."
Toyota forecast an operating loss of 150 billion yen ($1.66 billion)
for the fiscal year ending March 2009. Toyota has never reported an
operating loss since it began disclosing such figures in 1941. But it
did have an operating loss in unofficial, internal calculations for
the year ending March 1938 a year after the company was founded.
Operating income reflects a company's core business performance and
does not include income taxes and certain other expenses. Last fiscal
year, Toyota had an operating profit of 2.27 trillion yen.
Japan's top automaker also lowered its net profit forecast to just 50
billion yen ($555 million) for the year through March 2009 -- a tiny
fraction of the 1.7 trillion yen it earned last year.
Falling sales in the U.S. in the wake of the financial crisis have
dealt a heavy blow to Japanese automakers. But Watanabe said that
emerging markets, which had held up in the beginning, were also
slowing down now.
The surging yen has battered profits as well by eroding overseas
earnings when converted back to yen. The dollar has fallen to 13-year
lows of about 90 yen recently.
This is the second time Toyota -- which makes the popular Camry sedan
and Prius gas-electric hybrid -- has reduced it annual earnings
forecast this year. Initially, it had been projecting 1.25 trillion
yen ($13.9 billion) in net profit for the year through March 2009, but
last month it reduced that to 550 billion yen ($6.1 billion) before
chopping it further Monday.
It also lowered the number of vehicles it expects to sell globally
this calendar year to 8.96 million, down 4 percent from a year ago,
Watanabe told reporters.
Unlike previous years, he gave no goal for vehicle sales for 2009. He
also gave no earnings forecast for the following fiscal year, ending
March 2010, noting the company didn't have a sales plan yet.
Tsuyoshi Mochimaru, auto analyst for Barclays Capital in Tokyo, said
that Toyota will likely continue to struggle next year because U.S.
auto sales won't start recovering until toward the end of 2009, and
the dollar may also lag.
"The problem is next year," he said, while adding that the latest
revisions were within expectations. "It's unmistakable that things are
extremely tough for Toyota."
In July, Toyota lowered its global vehicle sales target for 2008 to
9.5 million from the initial 9.85 million. Last year, it sold 9.37
million vehicles around the world.
Toyota also lowered its sales forecast for the fiscal year through
March to 21.5 trillion yen ($239 billion), down about 18 percent from
the previous fiscal year. It had earlier projected 23 trillion yen in
sales.
Grabbing attention in recent years has been whether Toyota would
dethrone Detroit-based General Motors Corp. as the world's No. 1 in
annual vehicles sales.
But the mood was pure gloom at the president's annual year-end event.
Watanabe and other executives said production expansion plans and
other investment will be on hold, including a new plant in the
southern U.S. state of Mississippi and new vehicle plans in India,
until the global market recovers.
Watanabe vowed Toyota would grow so lean it will be able to realize
profitability even if its worldwide sales slide to as low as 7 million
vehicles -- what he called the basic "bottom line" for Toyota.
He promised his workers would offer "ideas as well as sweat" to steer
the automaker through difficult times.
Mitsuo Kinoshita, a Toyota executive, said he hoped the results for
the fiscal year through March would mark a bottom, with recovery
expected the following fiscal year, partly boosted by a drop in
material prices.
Soaring prices of steel and oil had been a negative for the
automakers, but they have fallen back in recent months. Toyota has cut
130 billion yen ($1.4 billion) in costs for the fiscal year, through
various measures, Kinoshita said.
But an unfavorable currency shifts will slash 200 billion yen ($2.2
billion) from its results for the fiscal year through March, while
marketing activities eroded another 570 billion yen ($6.3 billion),
according to Toyota.
Although plans to develop a diesel engine with Japanese partner Isuzu
Motors will be stalled, Toyota will continue to invest in hybrids and
other ecological technology, the executives said, as a long-term
investment for growth.
Toyota's U.S. vehicles sales plunged by a third on year in November,
when overall sales fell to their lowest level in more than 26 years.
And there is little hope for a quick recovery as consumers hold back
big purchases amid a serious downturn.
While Japan's automakers are in far better financial shape than the
cash-strapped American counterparts, the global slowdown is hitting
them hard.
"The crisis we face now is totally different from past crises," said
Watanabe.
At a similar news conference last week from Honda Motor Co. President
Takeo Fukui, Japan's No. 2 automaker also lowered profit and sales
forecast and declined to give a vehicle sales goal for 2009.
Toyota said it will reduce thousands of temporary workers at its Japan
plants, but said their full-time employees will have job security.
Toyota is a relatively old-style Japanese corporation that offers
lifetime employment, and in only recent years has hired and let go of
temporary workers to adjust production.
The company's stock fell 5 yen, or 0.17 percent, to 2,895 yen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitsubishi Motors to Widen Production Cuts on Falling Demand
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aLhZuLHGyw78
Mitsubishi Motors Corp., the Japanese maker of Outlander sport-utility
vehicles, will scrap the night shifts at two domestic factories as the
deepening global recession saps auto demand:toyota republicans still
blame the U.A.W.
By Naoko Fujimura and Tetsuya Komatsu
Dec. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Mitsubishi Motors Corp., the Japanese maker of
Outlander sport-utility vehicles, will scrap the night shifts at two
domestic factories as the deepening global recession saps auto demand.
The carmaker will halt the night shift at its Mizushima plant,
excluding the minicar line, from Jan. 26, Kai Inada, a spokesman for
the Tokyo-based company, said today by phone. Nighttime work at the
Okazaki factory will stop from Feb. 2.
The cuts are part of Mitsubishi's move to reduce planned output by
110,000 vehicles in the year ending March because of tumbling sales in
Japan, the U.S. and Europe.
Poetic Justice
Strip stores are starting to put out Space for rent signs that are semi
permanent.... They must be planning on "a long time" that they will need
signs out.
The sign taped in the store front window wasn't enough. These semi
permanent signs are professional and sunk in the ground with 4x4 posts.
Nickname unavailable
wrote:
yep, its coming, after christmas should be a real eye opener.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>> >> >nope, you pointed out how stupid you are.
>>
>> >> I would rather be what I am than a socialist such as yourself.
>> >> --
>>
>> > you mean you admit you are stupid, just come right out and say it.
>> >its quite easy. just open your mouth and say "I AM STUPID"
>>
>> Your calling me stupid carries no weight with me. ÔøΩI asked you to cite
>> examples of your claim of automotive bailout in other countries and
>> you failed to do so, citing "all countries that make cars".
>>
>> Bluster all ya want, socialist name caller.
>> --
>> lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> nope, you said all socialist countries, try to back track stupid. i
>will post a small example, it will not matter. though, i have learned
>that facts are a waste of time with conservatives.
Just for the record, Germany, France and Japan are all far more
socialist than the US. And that was my point. Stupid fucking name
lab~rat >:-)
<PoeticJustice@talk-n-dog...com> puked:
>
>
They're tearing them down in S. Florida. For me, that's a good thing
because unless this goofy administration REALLY fucks us up, there'll
be the opportunity to build them back.
Nickname unavailable
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:50:02 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >> >> >nope, you pointed out how stupid you are.
>
> >> >> I would rather be what I am than a socialist such as yourself.
> >> >> --
>
> >> > you mean you admit you are stupid, just come right out and say it.
> >> >its quite easy. just open your mouth and say "I AM STUPID"
>
> >> examples of your claim of automotive bailout in other countries and
> >> you failed to do so, citing "all countries that make cars".
>
> >> Bluster all ya want, socialist name caller.
> >> --
> >> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> > nope, you said all socialist countries, try to back track stupid. i
> >will post a small example, it will not matter. though, i have learned
> >that facts are a waste of time with conservatives.
>
> Just for the record, Germany, France and Japan are all far more
> socialist than the US. And that was my point. Stupid fucking name
> caller.
> --
then you admit, that socialism is superior, after all, just about
every country that builds cars is a socialist according to you.
calling you names, i never have. telling the truth about you, thats
another matter.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 18, 7:23ÔøΩam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:50:02 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >nope, you pointed out how stupid you are.
>>
>> >> >> I would rather be what I am than a socialist such as yourself.
>> >> >> --
>>
>> >> > you mean you admit you are stupid, just come right out and say it.
>> >> >its quite easy. just open your mouth and say "I AM STUPID"
>>
>> >> Your calling me stupid carries no weight with me. ÔøΩI asked you to cite
>> >> examples of your claim of automotive bailout in other countries and
>> >> you failed to do so, citing "all countries that make cars".
>>
>> >> Bluster all ya want, socialist name caller.
>> >> --
>> >> lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> >> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>
>> > ÔøΩnope, you said all socialist countries, try to back track stupid. i
>> >will post a small example, it will not matter. though, i have learned
>> >that facts are a waste of time with conservatives.
>>
>> Just for the record, Germany, France and Japan are all far more
>> socialist than the US. ÔøΩAnd that was my point. ÔøΩStupid fucking name
>> caller.
>> --
>
>
> then you admit, that socialism is superior,
Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? Is it because
your president is a socialist?
>after all, just about
>every country that builds cars is a socialist according to you.
>calling you names, i never have. telling the truth about you, thats
>another matter.
>
>
>> lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
--
(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) <www.LayoffRemedy.com>
Lisa Lisa <harryh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A Big Shitstorm in Commercial Real Estate is Coming.
We've been hearing that apocryphal claim for a LONG
time now. No sign of any such thing yet.
I'll believe it IF we **EVER** see it.
Meanwhile, I have better things to think about.
Nickname unavailable
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:25:29 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 18, 7:23Êam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:50:02 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> >> >nope, you pointed out how stupid you are.
>
> >> >> >> I would rather be what I am than a socialist such as yourself.
> >> >> >> --
>
> >> >> > you mean you admit you are stupid, just come right out and say it.
> >> >> >its quite easy. just open your mouth and say "I AM STUPID"
>
> >> >> examples of your claim of automotive bailout in other countries and
> >> >> you failed to do so, citing "all countries that make cars".
>
> >> >> Bluster all ya want, socialist name caller.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> >> >will post a small example, it will not matter. though, i have learned
> >> >that facts are a waste of time with conservatives.
>
> >> Just for the record, Germany, France and Japan are all far more
> >> caller.
> >> --
>
> > then you admit, that socialism is superior,
>
> Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? Is it because
> your president is a socialist?
>
if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
from a perspective of ignorance.
> >after all, just about
> >every country that builds cars is a socialist according to you.
> >calling you names, i never have. telling the truth about you, thats
> >another matter.
>
> >> lab~rat Ê>:-)
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>> Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? ÔøΩIs it because
>> your president is a socialist?
>>
>
> if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
>is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
>from a perspective of ignorance.
>
I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
How do ya like them apples?
Nickname unavailable
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >> Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? ÊIs it because
> >> your president is a socialist?
>
> > if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
> >is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
> >from a perspective of ignorance.
>
> I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
> obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
>
> How do ya like them apples?
> --
they are road apples from a crank.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 23, 9:07ÔøΩam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? ÔøΩIs it because
>> >> your president is a socialist?
>>
>> > if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
>> >is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
>> >from a perspective of ignorance.
>>
>> I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
>> obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
>>
>> How do ya like them apples?
>> --
>
>
> they are road apples from a crank.
>
So you're saying you don't think it's true?
I don't think that you've thought out your position.
--
Nickname unavailable
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:59:28 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 23, 9:07Êam, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> your president is a socialist?
>
> >> > if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
> >> >is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
> >> >from a perspective of ignorance.
>
> >> I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
> >> obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
>
> >> How do ya like them apples?
> >> --
>
> > they are road apples from a crank.
>
> So you're saying you don't think it's true?
>
> I don't think that you've thought out your position.
> --
> lab~rat >:-)
> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
sure i have, he is a shill for big business. just as bush was.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 23, 12:48ÔøΩpm, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:59:28 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Nov 23, 9:07ÔøΩam, "lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>>
>> >> >> Just curious, why are you such a big fan of socialism? ÔøΩIs it because
>> >> >> your president is a socialist?
>>
>> >> > if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
>> >> >is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
>> >> >from a perspective of ignorance.
>>
>> >> I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
>> >> obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
>>
>> >> How do ya like them apples?
>> >> --
>>
>> > they are road apples from a crank.
>>
>> So you're saying you don't think it's true?
>>
>> I don't think that you've thought out your position.
>> --
>> lab~rat ÔøΩ>:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> sure i have, he is a shill for big business. just as bush was.
The difference between the two is Obama has made the companies
conditionally beholden to the government and has put pieces in place
that allows government to run them to a degree. For now.
I was against Bush shoveling money to big business, I guess we agree
that neither one of them were for the middle class. Except Bush's tax
cuts.
Nickname unavailable
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:57:35 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
>
>
>
> >On Nov 23, 12:48Êpm, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:59:28 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:53:19 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
> >> >> <Vide...@tcq.net> puked:
>
> >> >> >> your president is a socialist?
>
> >> >> > if you think pro big business, pro wall street, pro big banks obama
> >> >> >is a socialist, then you don't know what socialism is, you are coming
> >> >> >from a perspective of ignorance.
>
> >> >> I think Obama is taking control of those by having them financially
> >> >> obligated to the government, which is what socialists do.
>
> >> >> How do ya like them apples?
> >> >> --
>
> >> > they are road apples from a crank.
>
> >> So you're saying you don't think it's true?
>
> >> I don't think that you've thought out your position.
> >> --
> >> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
> > sure i have, he is a shill for big business. just as bush was.
>
> The difference between the two is Obama has made the companies
> conditionally beholden to the government and has put pieces in place
> that allows government to run them to a degree. For now.
>
> I was against Bush shoveling money to big business, I guess we agree
> that neither one of them were for the middle class. Except Bush's tax
> cuts.
were for the rich, just as reagans was. of course the tax cuts were
there for a reason, it was for reagans and bushs pro MAOIST policies,
that allowed them to control the rich.
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 24, 7:38 am, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
I don't consider myself rich and I received a pair of child tax
credits instituted by Bush that took some 3k off of my tax bill.
You read too much liberal propaganda.
Nickname unavailable
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:34:17 -0800 (PST), Nickname unavailable
ROTFLOL. lets have more children to lower our taxes. its
fundamentalism.
yep, reagan and bushs taxes cuts were crafted to control,
SNICKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lab~rat >:-)
<Vid...@tcq.net> puked:
>On Nov 24, 9:14 am, "lab~rat >:-)" <ch...@cheeze.net> wrote:
Obviously that wasn't the case, it was to help working families with
kids. Thus disproving the lie that only the rich got tax breaks.