> On Apr 29, 6:38 am, "Mark" <alln...@nospammindspring.com> wrote:> "Dario Western" <dariowest...@nospambigpond.com> wrote in message > >news:xgvRj.5927$ko5.4426@news- > > > Trent, > > > Why did you post this message to a wrestling and Mormon newsgroup? > > > Why did YOU?? > because once evolving from a primate to a human being..;if that is > possible....the first discovery is that the most hate that can be > conjured up is a group of people or peer group that will not admit > their evil....the evil itself is not unaceptable to the masses but the > denial of it is unacceptable...ref...pastor wright and obama...the > militant terrorist suicide bombers fighting for destruction of > everyone but their kind.....stalin...hitler...etc.....does anyone > think that hitler or stalin would ever repent....it is the > unrelentling attitude of the nudist that is prevalent and their overt > desires to aggress and force their nakedness on the rest of > society....Dario is cut from the same cloth that Anna Nikki and i are > cut from ..knowing that our beliefs are not popular and know exactly > how the non naked feel and why....but you primates until you evolve > and admit will never know.....jz
The Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and Hari-Krishna beliefs are not popular, but in a free world, they have a right to practice them. Most non Hari-Krishnas likely don't relish seeing the Hari Krishnas walking down the street and chanting and doing their dance, but it is the Hari- Krishna's Just right, and Just Freedom to do so. Nakedness is not being "forced" on anyone by merely walking down the street. Unless your person or property is violated (or endangered), nothing is being forced on you, and you have a Just right to Freedom whether you "jon_zee," and other Americans, and other people throughout the world recognize it or not, you have a Just right to Freedom unless you are violating (or endangering) someone's persons or property including public property, or engaged in commerce, which given the exploitative nature of which may Justly be regulated, though not prohibited, through product bundling, quality controls, and advertising regulations, and possibly though not surely other ways I have not thought of.
Thus, you surely have the Just right to commit non-dangerous, non- commercial acts in public. This is Freedom. The line may not be drawn more strictly than this, or must we violate the principle of Freedom entirely and may as well do away with it, leaving the future to a single prevailing ideology and religion, limiting all speeches and actions to those of the past, for certainly once something is outlawed it would be extinct and nearly impossible to gain a majority support for since they would not even be able to try or see or practice it at all. Save the argument I am presenting here, and such is our current oppressed state.
The only thing I think about "Anna" is that perhaps she is denigrating sex and promoting nonsexual nudity in an attempt to protect nudism from the anti-sex bigots and persecutors in this world. I don't know if such a tactic is well founded, but she seems maybe too much a voice of the prejudice Nazi crowd to seriously be taking such a tactic.
Leave your dress and conduct codes to private property owners who may eject any who violate them. No country may be called free which could require you to wear a Burka in public, but apparently that is a possibility requiring only 50% of the voters in the United States (or less than 50% as the minority of elected dictators can pass the law). Thus we see, Democracy is merely a means of political change, and Freedom from past governance, but that it is in no way an establishment or ensurer of Freedom. Freedom is a principle much more important than Democracy, it is a principle to be both advanced in the minds of the people of this planet, and established in the foundations of any Just political system which governs them. The United States is one of the biggest human rights violators on the planet due to its disregard for Freedom in areas of drugs, arms, and sex. It has not been the bastion of Freedom it was supposedly conceived to be. American's Just rights and thus their prosperity, wealth, and livelihood are violated all over the country - as cities may apparently legally do thing such as ban the drinking of beer on the beach - taking the common citizen's wealth and prosperity, and taxing them to spend more money policing and jailing offenders. Such is the despotic state of the tyranny of our nation today. As seen with the drug war this vicious cycle increases true crime, undermines the justice system, and leads to more lawlessness and criminal lifestyles. The USA puts more people in prison per capita than any nation in the world besides China, and thinks to call itself free compared to such fallen Communist Empires and Theocracies which may respect neither free speech nor freedom of religion, nor the rights of the accused - nor the right to acquire property, and may even force people to work like slaves - though I'm not sure how things work/ worked in communist countries. And of those rights, none at all are protected by Democracy, they all are protected by the insufficient Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) which requires 2/3rd's of both houses of Congress and 3/4th's of all state's legislatures to change, and neither does it protect your right to property as taxes could be raised to 100% and the nation made Communist. Allying yourself with a lesser evil may make sense at times, but the truth is you wish to see both evils fall or be corrected - we can only hope for the nation's sake the latter comes to pass.
So the nation's not free, and to the extent it is free, it is not free because of Democracy but because of the Bill of Rights. Democracy does not ensure Freedom, it is merely a means of political change. Democracy is merely a means of freeing ourselves from the dictators who ruled us in the past and electing new dictators without having to resort to war. The Bill of Rights ensures Freedom and is either not recognized or not extensive enough.
There are 5 means of political change:
1. Free Speech - if it is allowed 2. Democracy - if your country has it 3. Civil Disobedience - if the penalties are not too harsh - sucks nonetheless as you can be penalized 4. Targeted Assassinations 5. War - nearly always civil war
As you can see, Free Speech and Democracy are the most palatable. Free Speech and Democracy allow us to change the government without war by appealing to the rulers or replacing them. The other three methods cost lives but are sometimes necessary.
And those who violate minority freedom are prejudice evil lying bigots, doing satanism and sin, jacking for nothing, taking people's unalienable freedoms away.
> On Apr 29, 7:16 am, Zee <jonZ...@webtv.net> wrote:
> > On Apr 29, 6:38 am, "Mark" <alln...@nospammindspring.com> wrote:> "Dario Western" <dariowest...@nospambigpond.com> wrote in message > > >news:xgvRj.5927$ko5.4426@news- > > > > Trent, > > > > Why did you post this message to a wrestling and Mormon newsgroup? > > > > Why did YOU?? > > because once evolving from a primate to a human being..;if that is > > possible....the first discovery is that the most hate that can be > > conjured up is a group of people or peer group that will not admit > > their evil....the evil itself is not unaceptable to the masses but the > > denial of it is unacceptable...ref...pastor wright and obama...the > > militant terrorist suicide bombers fighting for destruction of > > everyone but their kind.....stalin...hitler...etc.....does anyone > > think that hitler or stalin would ever repent....it is the > > unrelentling attitude of the nudist that is prevalent and their overt > > desires to aggress and force their nakedness on the rest of > > society....Dario is cut from the same cloth that Anna Nikki and i are > > cut from ..knowing that our beliefs are not popular and know exactly > > how the non naked feel and why....but you primates until you evolve > > and admit will never know.....jz
> The Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and Hari-Krishna beliefs are not popular, > but in a free world, they have a right to practice them. Most non > Hari-Krishnas likely don't relish seeing the Hari Krishnas walking > down the street and chanting and doing their dance, but it is the Hari- > Krishna's Just right, and Just Freedom to do so. Nakedness is not > being "forced" on anyone by merely walking down the street. Unless > your person or property is violated (or endangered), nothing is being > forced on you, and you have a Just right to Freedom whether you > "jon_zee," and other Americans, and other people throughout the world > recognize it or not, you have a Just right to Freedom unless you are > violating (or endangering) someone's persons or property including > public property, or engaged in commerce, which given the exploitative > nature of which may Justly be regulated, though not prohibited, > through product bundling, quality controls, and advertising > regulations, and possibly though not surely other ways I have not > thought of.
> Thus, you surely have the Just right to commit non-dangerous, non- > commercial acts in public. This is Freedom. The line may not be > drawn more strictly than this, or must we violate the principle of > Freedom entirely and may as well do away with it, leaving the future > to a single prevailing ideology and religion, limiting all speeches > and actions to those of the past, for certainly once something is > outlawed it would be extinct and nearly impossible to gain a majority > support for since they would not even be able to try or see or > practice it at all. Save the argument I am presenting here, and such > is our current oppressed state.
> The only thing I think about "Anna" is that perhaps she is denigrating > sex and promoting nonsexual nudity in an attempt to protect nudism > from the anti-sex bigots and persecutors in this world. I don't know > if such a tactic is well founded, but she seems maybe too much a voice > of the prejudice Nazi crowd to seriously be taking such a tactic.
> Leave your dress and conduct codes to private property owners who may > eject any who violate them. No country may be called free which could > require you to wear a Burka in public, but apparently that is a > possibility requiring only 50% of the voters in the United States (or > less than 50% as the minority of elected dictators can pass the law). > Thus we see, Democracy is merely a means of political change, and > Freedom from past governance, but that it is in no way an > establishment or ensurer of Freedom. Freedom is a principle much more > important than Democracy, it is a principle to be both advanced in the > minds of the people of this planet, and established in the foundations > of any Just political system which governs them. The United States is > one of the biggest human rights violators on the planet due to its > disregard for Freedom in areas of drugs, arms, and sex. It has not > been the bastion of Freedom it was supposedly conceived to be. > American's Just rights and thus their prosperity, wealth, and > livelihood are violated all over the country - as cities may > apparently legally do thing such as ban the drinking of beer on the > beach - taking the common citizen's wealth and prosperity, and taxing > them to spend more money policing and jailing offenders. Such is the > despotic state of the tyranny of our nation today. As seen with the > drug war this vicious cycle increases true crime, undermines the > justice system, and leads to more lawlessness and criminal > lifestyles. The USA puts more people in prison per capita than any > nation in the world besides China, and thinks to call itself free > compared to such fallen Communist Empires and Theocracies which may > respect neither free speech nor freedom of religion, nor the rights of > the accused - nor the right to acquire property, and may even force > people to work like slaves - though I'm not sure how things work/ > worked in communist countries. And of those rights, none at all are > protected by Democracy, they all are protected by the insufficient > Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) which requires 2/3rd's > of both houses of Congress and 3/4th's of all state's legislatures to > change, and neither does it protect your right to property as taxes > could be raised to 100% and the nation made Communist. Allying > yourself with a lesser evil may make sense at times, but the truth is > you wish to see both evils fall or be corrected - we can only hope for > the nation's sake the latter comes to pass.
> So the nation's not free, and to the extent it is free, it is not free > because of Democracy but because of the Bill of Rights. Democracy > does not ensure Freedom, it is merely a means of political change. > Democracy is merely a means of freeing ourselves from the dictators > who ruled us in the past and electing new dictators without having to > resort to war. The Bill of Rights ensures Freedom and is either not > recognized or not extensive enough.
> There are 5 means of political change:
> 1. Free Speech - if it is allowed > 2. Democracy - if your country has it > 3. Civil Disobedience - if the penalties are not too harsh - sucks > nonetheless as you can be penalized > 4. Targeted Assassinations > 5. War - nearly always civil war
> As you can see, Free Speech and Democracy are the most palatable. > Free Speech and Democracy allow us to change the government without > war by appealing to the rulers or replacing them. The other three > methods cost lives but are sometimes necessary.
> And those who violate minority freedom are prejudice evil lying > bigots, doing satanism and sin, jacking for nothing, taking people's > unalienable freedoms away.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Democracy is just an elected dictatorship. The elected representatives are no better than any old dictators, and will oppress you just as much as any old dictator. The only difference in America is the Bill of Rights which is protected by the separation of powers in the structure of our government between the judicial and executive/ legislative branches of government and the separation of power between the Federal, State, County and City governments. Democracy does not ensure freedom it is merely a means of political change of freedom from the past dictators who may free us from past legislation.
If common dictators were constrained by a bill of rights protected by a separation of powers, their country would be nearly as good as any other government or Democracy with such freedoms, they would just lack the means of political change. And a good king or dictator could self- constrain but the next king or dictator could easily be not as good.
For instance China too has a bill of rights and more guaranteed freedoms in its Constitution than the United States. But with no separation of powers, its Dictators can ignore the guaranteed freedoms completely and override them and routinely do.
It's true that in some states a majority can get an issue on the ballot and pass a law in an election. But most laws are passed by an elected minority. So much touting Democracy as freedom, when we do not even have a Democracy. In any case, majority rule can be tyranny to the other 49% of the voters, and so the theory goes, that a wise minority of rulers might be elected. But rather as it turns out they are just dictatorial tyrants, it seems a broader bill of rights and a broader interpretation of a bill of rights is a better solution.
I'm the wise minority who would respect broader freedoms if elected. In the absence of a bill of rights securing our freedom, tyranny is given free reign. Justice is not established or at least it is not secured - as the next elected dictator may legislate tyranny. Sin instead becomes established as the government makes up new sins, and commits evil upon the people in the name of righteousness.
Dictatorial tyrants spend their time establishing murder instead of Justice. It's a question of tyranny of the majority vs. minority rights, or majority rule vs. tyranny of the minority.
> > It's true that in some states a majority can get an issue on the > > ballot and pass a law in an election. But most laws are passed by an > > elected minority. So much touting Democracy as freedom, when we do > > not even have a Democracy. In any case, majority rule can be tyranny > > to the other 49% of the voters, and so the theory goes, that a wise > > minority of rulers might be elected. But rather as it turns out they > > are just dictatorial tyrants, it seems a broader bill of rights and a > > broader interpretation of a bill of rights is a better solution.
> Absolutely correct. The owned media always beat the drum for America > being a "democracy" but it's a lie. It's just a wish of those in power > because they know that "democracy" is always tyranny. It's tyranny > over 49% and it's tyranny based on the idea that the media can easily > fool some of the people all of the time. So "majority rule" means the > media can get a majority to agree to just about any measure no matter > how extreme or oppressive.
> But America is a NEW idea. It's like nothing ever tried in the world > before. It's a REPUBLIC. It is an attempt to have rule by the people > instead of rule by the strongest. The differences are important. > First off, there is the assumption that just by being born you come > into the world with rights from "the creator" which is NOT defined. > You get to decide if that means "God", "Allah" "Nature" or "Chance", > but the concept is STILL there that being born grants everybody > certain rights. Things like Life and Liberty. Even animals are born > with these. Sure you CAN get killed out there, but in the wild > generally one is born free and self-defense is provided for your > species.
This is actually just *your* philosophy. In practice you have only the rights the government recognizes. Even if the 9th and 10th Amendments suggest that all other rights are inherent in you, it doesn't matter unless the Supreme Court recognizes them - or some lesser court judge agrees with you, and even then the prosecutor can appeal up to the Supreme Court.
> Let us pause for a minute and compare to the older more "traditional" > rule of a king. That idea is that people are basically ignorant and > worthless so they need somebody smart and strong to tell them what to > do. The ruler is considered the representative of "the creator" on > earth. Therefore the ruler has absolute power over subjects. That > power includes ALL aspects of life including life and death. "Rights" > are "collective" and exist only for the ruler. Rights for the people > are all filtered through the ruler and they get ONLY those which the > ruler decides (as God's representative) to "grant" to them.
> The "liberal" ( what it used to be called before politicians got > playing with the meaning of words) ideas started by men in what was > known in history as "the enlightenment" included: 1. That the people > are born with rights, they are NOT 'granted" by rulers. 2. People if > left to decide their own fates will in general choose reasonably > wisely based on their own self-interests. They will do at least as > well as a "smart" king. 3. People may be easily fooled by politicians > and the media as to issues and votes, but generally are a pretty good > judge of local people they know.
> The bottom line is that the power of government is severely limited. > The government is run by people elected at the local level so the > people can better judge them (this was the TRUE purpose of the > electorial college...but now politicians want it a democratic > "popular" election to make elections more easily manipulated) and > choose more wisely. These locals then pick the national leader.
> And finally 4. The government structure is designed to so that some of > the more important aspects of it (such as distribution of power as set > in the constitution) are NOT able to be changed by simple "majority > rule". Two thirds or 3/4 of the people have to agree on the change. > This eliminates the easy tyranny of majority rule. The people are > granted the power to choose ANY form of government they wish INCLUDING > a KING! But the catch is that it takes much more agreement among the > people to install a king than merely 51%. This is why the run at a > power grab known as the con-con and "NewStates Constitution" fell on > it's face. They had MORE than a majority ready to install that fascist > nightmare, but not the required super-majority.
> Obviously politicians all love power and will always be working to > subvert the republic to install themselves with powers as close to a > king as possible. It has to be expected. But given the above > provisions of super-majority requirement of fundamental change, so > long as the rules of the republic (constitution) is followed, it is > difficult to get away with the subversion. This is why the mass media > pounds away on the idea that America is a 'democracy". They want to > subvert the ideas of the republic so that the media can form the motor > behind a power-grab.
> The bad news is that many people have actually bought the "democracy" > thing. You actually can fool some of the people all of the time!
So you're saying that a Republic is good, and that a Democracy is bad. I'm saying that neither matter, and that all that matters is a Bill of Rights secured by an Independent Judiciary. I'm saying that a Dictator or a King would be nearly even as good as a Republic or Democracy if there was a secured Bill of Rights that he could not violate, and that there is nearly no difference. You say:
> Let us pause for a minute and compare to the older more "traditional" > rule of a king. That idea is that people are basically ignorant and > worthless so they need somebody smart and strong to tell them what to > do. The ruler is considered the representative of "the creator" on > earth. Therefore the ruler has absolute power over subjects. That > power includes ALL aspects of life including life and death. "Rights" > are "collective" and exist only for the ruler. Rights for the people > are all filtered through the ruler and they get ONLY those which the > ruler decides (as God's representative) to "grant" to them.
But that is basically what exists except for the weak Bill of Rights. The 1st Amendment recognizes the right to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of peaceful assembly, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The 2nd Amendment recognizes the right to keep and bear arms. The 3rd through 8th Amendments recognize the rights of the accused, and the 9th and 10th Amendments suggest the recognition of all other rights.
But the rights of the accused aren't broad enough, the accused can be coerced into plea bargaining, and the 9th and 10th Amendments don't do anything unless a right is recognized by the Supreme Court or a lesser court judge. That leaves us with only the First and Second amendments. Better than a Communist or Theocratic government, but not enough to praise as "the land of the free."
The First and Second Amendments are all America has in addition to the weak rights of the accused who are in serious peril, and a few interpretations recognizing a few more weak rights of the accused (Miranda warning for instance), and extending rights, for instance, rights to abortion and privacy may have been recognized by the Supreme Court.
How is America "the land of the free" compared to a dictatorship, our elected dictators can apparently outlaw anything they want, not to mention pass patently unconstitutional laws, forcing the common citizen to suffer until someone has the money to sue or the laws are appealed.
Communist Empires, Theocracies and Dictatorships, countries without a Bill of Rights secured by an Independent Judiciary, may respect neither Freedom of Speech nor Freedom of Religion, nor the rights of the accused - And Communist empires may not respect the right to acquire property, and may even force people to work like slaves - though I'm not sure how things work/worked in Communist countries. America is a lesser evil, but today far from the country we're looking for and far from the bastion of Freedom it pretends to be.
g...@rock.com wrote: > The USA puts more people in prison per capita than any > nation in the world besides China, and thinks to call itself free > compared to such fallen Communist Empires and Theocracies which
You're a hopelessly verbose, intellectually deceptive, deluded whiner.
Bugger off to some other nation that fits your narcissistic idealized delusions - if you can find one.
g...@rock.com wrote: > America is a lesser evil, but today far from the country we're looking > for and far from the bastion of Freedom it pretends to be.
Get your useless whining ass out of here then, fucking LEAVE!
g...@rock.com wrote: > Democracy is just an elected dictatorship. The elected > representatives are no better than any old dictators, and will oppress > you just as much as any old dictator.
That's the stupidest, most cynically sophomoric thing I've read here in a long time.
You're a whining ideologue hairball who should get the fuck out of here!
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