About the Polygamists in El Dorado
goo...@rock.com
have to recognize marriage until it wants to. All the girls should be
given birth control options, and information on a way out, to call a
number, that they will have room and board off the compound so they
can get an education and get jobs. Some of the girls may actively
consent and love their husbands. They may want to live on the
compound in their society and raise children. They should only be
moved away if that is what they want.
The only crime that should be prosecuted is actual rape - and that is,
only if the victims - the minors themselves - _want_ to press charges
of rape. Anything else is tyranny, wrong and evil.
Mike Painter
And how do you define rape?
Why should rape be excluded from being a felony?
How do you determine if they "want to" press charges? Spousal abuse laws
have been passed that mandate arrests because, usually, the woman fears what
will happen when the man gets home.
Mike
> Rape is rape. Sex is sex. Age doesn't matter. The state doesn't
> have to recognize marriage until it wants to. All the girls should be
> given birth control options, and information on a way out, to call a
> number, that they will have room and board off the compound so they
> can get an education and get jobs. Some of the girls may actively
> consent and love their husbands. They may want to live on the
> compound in their society and raise children. They should only be
> moved away if that is what they want.
From what I've seen in the interviews, these women are well nigh
incapable of being able to make a rational decision for themselves,
for their children, and for the kind of future they want. Watching
them be interviewed, these women all speak in a peculiar, child-like
way. I suspect that they have been under absolute control to such an
extent that they may be psychologically damaged.
What do you expect, when you are told whom you are going to marry,
and, once married, you must subject yourself to him? You become just
one in a harem of "sister-wives," and the husband you have in common
with all of them will decide which of you he is going to sleep with
for the night. Whatever his decision, you must accept it and not
complain.
Therefore, I think very few of the women would move away from the
compound (the only life they knew) if given the choice. There's a
whole lifetime of indoctrination working against them being able to
have an independent thought. There's a few women who escaped this
life, decided for themselves that they had had enough and courageously
escaped to start their own lives, which gives some hope.
> The only crime that should be prosecuted is actual rape - and that is,
> only if the victims - the minors themselves - _want_ to press charges
> of rape. Anything else is tyranny, wrong and evil.
Polygamy and all the mental and emotional abuses inherent in the
practice are unacceptable and should not be tolerated. These little
private societies have gotten away flouting the law for too long, and
they need a good lesson in American jurisprudence. If we don't stop
them, what if the Muslims who are starting to make their presence felt
here decide they want four wives, like they can do back in their
homeland, and point to the non-prosecution of the polygamy sect?
Mike
Speaking of the men, where are they? For all the women being
interviewed and camera shots of children being carted away, it seems
the men (if you can call them that) are hiding behind their womens'
skirts to this day. What a bunch of craven, low-life bastards they
all are.
Free Lunch
goo...@rock.com wrote in
<819ef267-95c6-4462...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>:
So, you advocate tyrannizing the children, rather than showing them
respect. How does a 12-year-old girl say "no" when her parents
essentially sell her to her 50-year-old 'husband'?
I'll bet you object to the decision of the Yemeni court which not only
granted an 8-year-old girl a divorce, but took her away from her father,
as well.
Free Lunch
Mike <mgcu...@gmail.com> wrote in
<129f0b94-6d17-4155...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:
Remember, too, that humans are roughly 50-50 between males and females.
Organizations that save the females for a small group of powerful males
have to either kick the lower status males out of the organization,
often at an early age, or use them for cannon fodder. Apparently, in the
FLDS case teen boys were kicked out of the compound if they didn't have
a powerful male to protect them.
Mike Painter
> Therefore, I think very few of the women would move away from the
> compound (the only life they knew) if given the choice. There's a
> whole lifetime of indoctrination working against them being able to
> have an independent thought. There's a few women who escaped this
> life, decided for themselves that they had had enough and courageously
> escaped to start their own lives, which gives some hope.
It takes the average woman about seven years to leave a situation where she
is being battered physically or emotionally.
These people are probably not average and would find it harder to leave.
Where would they go?
How would they geet there?
How would they feed themselves and children when they got there?
Uncle Vic
> Rape is rape. Sex is sex. Age doesn't matter. The state doesn't
> have to recognize marriage until it wants to. All the girls should be
> given birth control options, and information on a way out, to call a
> number, that they will have room and board off the compound so they
> can get an education and get jobs. Some of the girls may actively
> consent and love their husbands. They may want to live on the
> compound in their society and raise children. They should only be
> moved away if that is what they want.
You're assuming these *children* could reason like adults.
>
> The only crime that should be prosecuted is actual rape - and that is,
> only if the victims - the minors themselves - _want_ to press charges
> of rape. Anything else is tyranny, wrong and evil.
>
Does that include the tyranny of religion, which puts a chokehold on all
reasonable thought?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
cactus
> Rape is rape. Sex is sex. Age doesn't matter.
Age does matter. That's why almost every state has statutory rape laws.
The state doesn't
> have to recognize marriage until it wants to. All the girls should be
> given birth control options, and information on a way out, to call a
> number, that they will have room and board off the compound so they
> can get an education and get jobs. Some of the girls may actively
> consent and love their husbands. They may want to live on the
> compound in their society and raise children. They should only be
> moved away if that is what they want.
In many cases their husbands will have committed statutory rape. That
makes them criminals. They should, if convicted, be jailed.
>
> The only crime that should be prosecuted is actual rape - and that is,
> only if the victims - the minors themselves - _want_ to press charges
> of rape. Anything else is tyranny, wrong and evil.
You don't know how voluntary the women's situation is. They are
essentially members of a cult, with all the brainwashing and mind
control that attends it. Most of these women do not have access to
communications with the outside world, and could not imagine living away
from their situation.
BTW, if the situation were voluntary, don't you think that they would
have men and women joining them?
But no one does. They rely on a high birth rate for their bed fodder.
Mitchell Holman
news:as1o04t3knjl03gl8...@4ax.com:
They should consider themselves lucky.
John Baker
No points for subtlety, son. In all my years on Usenet, I've seldom
seen a more obvious troll.
B1ackwater
It's called "establishment of religion" ... when the State finds
excuses to favor one religion over another.
And "excuses" seems to be an important word in THIS case. The
alleged "informant" - NO SUCH PERSON. Probably a cop or some
bigot working on behalf of another religion. Hasn't prevented
the MEDIA from spinning some fantastic, lurid, speculative
tales based on this "person" however.
Of course that was the whole IDEA ... let the media offend
everyones purient instincts with racy tales of dirty old men
and firm young teenaged brides so the public wouldn't NOTICE
the "establishment" going on. Right out of Herr Goebells
big-smear playbook ... just scratch out "Juden" and scribble-
in "Mormon" in crayon.
Did they show up with troops and armor at the last CATHOLIC
church involved in a sex scandal ... take away the parishioners
kids at gunpoint ? Confiscate the wine being supplied to those
minors ? Splash 'em all over the TV screen ? Oddly no. I wonder
why ? There are churches where they hand live rattlesnakes to
children ... yet the troops don't burst in on them. I wonder why ?
I hear there's a religion where baby boys - uninformed minors -
are required to be sexually mutilated sans medical cause ... and
the mutilator doesn't even have to be a licenced physician. Do
the troops burst in on those ceremonies ? I wonder why ?
So don't give me that "The law applies to everybody" crap - it's
not true. 'Religions' have traditionally recieved a LOT of slack.
Well, SOME religions ... ones the State and public LIKE.
How the State behaves towards minority religions and political
groups ... it's like the canary in the cage ... if the bird
starts to look ill, drops dead, there's something seriously
WRONG with the system as a whole - something that needs to
be corrected immediately.
Oh yea, once they're done with those "wrong" religions ... guess
who's next ? Yep, the most HATED 'religion' of all - the dreaded
UNBELIEVERS. Imagine what the media can accomplish with atheism if
given a few lurid fabricated 'facts' and encouraged to go for it !
Kelsey Bjarnason
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:37:28 -0700, Mike wrote:
> Polygamy and all the mental and emotional abuses inherent in the
> practice are unacceptable and should not be tolerated.
Nit: nothing about polygamy necessitates any sort of abusive behaviour.
Mental and emotional - as well as physical - abuses should not be
tolerated, but these are not implicit in polygamy. In most such cases
I'm aware of, it is generally a rather twisted religion which imposes the
rules, the structure, the regimented abuses - and also happens to impose
a polygamous lifestyle.
Free Lunch
Mitchell Holman <Noe...@comcast.com> wrote in
<Xns9A87274C...@216.196.97.131>:
It may turn out that way for the boys eventually, but I wouldn't want to
be a 13-year-old boy who is now homeless.
Free Lunch
Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjar...@gmail.com> wrote in
<88avd5-...@spankywork.localhost.net>:
>[snips]
>
>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:37:28 -0700, Mike wrote:
>
>> Polygamy and all the mental and emotional abuses inherent in the
>> practice are unacceptable and should not be tolerated.
>
>Nit: nothing about polygamy necessitates any sort of abusive behaviour.
True. The problem is that those who practice polygamy today tend to also
take advantage of girls in early adolescence.
Mitchell Holman
Worse still to be a 13 year old boy whose mind is being
destroyed by a religious cult.
Free Lunch
They don't have good choices, but I think they have a better chance of
surviving religious brainwashing than prostitution.
Ben Goren
> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apparently, in the FLDS case teen boys were kicked out of
>>>>> the compound if they didn't have a powerful male to protect
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> They should consider themselves lucky.
>>>
>>> It may turn out that way for the boys eventually, but I
>>> wouldn't want to be a 13-year-old boy who is now homeless.
>>
>> Worse still to be a 13 year old boy whose mind is being
>> destroyed by a religious cult.
>
> They don't have good choices, but I think they have a better
> chance of surviving religious brainwashing than prostitution.
Of course, the girls wound up getting the religious brainwashing
*and* being forced into prostitution. Granted, they had a very
limited clientele, but is that any kind of comfort?
Cheers,
b&
--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''
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Kelsey Bjarnason
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:42:33 -0500, Free Lunch wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:08:02 GMT, in alt.atheism Kelsey Bjarnason
> <kbjar...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <88avd5-...@spankywork.localhost.net>:
>>[snips]
>>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:37:28 -0700, Mike wrote:
>>
>>> Polygamy and all the mental and emotional abuses inherent in the
>>> practice are unacceptable and should not be tolerated.
>>
>>Nit: nothing about polygamy necessitates any sort of abusive behaviour.
>
> True. The problem is that those who practice polygamy today tend to also
> take advantage of girls in early adolescence.
No, that's limited to certain rather screwed-up groups generally
following certain rather screwed-up religions.
I personally know many people involved in multi-partner relationships who
have no interest in, nor history of, abusing anyone.
Ken
> Worse still to be a 13 year old boy whose mind is being
>
> - Show quoted text -
e.g. Jesus Camp with people like Ted (I'm a Fag) Haggard preaching
to and brainwashing 'em
Mitchell Holman
@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
The story I am hearing from lawyers at these FLDS hearings
are about 12-year-old who cannot tell time, have never handled
money, and are functional illiterates. Like most children who
suffer long-term abuse it goes undetected because of homeschooling.