Selling your own work
Mingkahuna
they themselves make or produce) and to consumers.
Since the Internet has become a way for artisans to sell without dealers and
distributors, it is a situation where the artisan is placed in the position of
acting as a salesman for his own "product." He doesn't have others selling for
him so he must sell for himself. It also puts him in a position where he is
almost required to be self-laudatory, to some degree. And, when one is to any
degree self-laudatory there is a real risk of appearing boastful, cocky and
even arroagant. Let a dealer make the same comments and it is just seen as
salesmanship, and depending on the reputation of the dealer it may carry great
weight almost to the point of a benediction of sorts. But again, let the
artisan comment on his own work in the same manner and he risks a huge image
problem.
So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB and
reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece? How have artisans in this group
dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the course
of selling their work?
Art
Bernie
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
>
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB
and
> reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece? How have artisans in this
group
> dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
> various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the
course
> of selling their work?
>
Use customer testimonials. They are more believable especially where real
names are used. They tell prospective buyers that you have satisfied
customers out there and that they were happy enough to let you know about
it.
--
Bernie
"We should have put our foot down when the ashtrays
disappeared from doctors' waiting rooms."
Bill Doman on ASP
miletwo
a professional review written by people you trust. Perhaps hire a
professional writer (like Brian Geiger) to write the copy for the site in
3rd person, so that it's not self-inflating, but rather 3rd-party
commentary.
My 2 kanuts.
(m2)
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
ip...@ptd.net
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB and
> reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece? How have artisans in this group
> dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
> various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the course
> of selling their work?
>
> Art
Maybe let the work, to a degree, speak for itself. Provide supportive
narrative that lends itself to useful information about the process, the
materials, and the end product. Beyond that, you're pushing it.
I think that most people can distinguish between the sincerity in which one
addresses his work and the blatant arrogance that accompanies some
artists/artisans.
The mistake that some make is to assume that others are interested in
anything about them beyond the product. Naturally some autobiographical
information may be interesting but, generally, the bottom line is to present
something that pleases the potential buyer.
Nizo
Mingkahuna
pieces, such a s a pipe or a tamper, where a customer testimonial isn't
possible or appropriate.
BTW, I know some people who tell me that they think that testimonials look too
much like shills. I don't agree, but there you are.
Art
Sonam Dasara
IMO, the way that you present yourself is fine, as do many who sell thru
ASP. You clearly mark advertisements as {AD}, and do not put a blurb for
your business when you reply to a post. I like that.
I resent it when some sellers post bullshit simply to have their
business name and a link to their website made visible to the group. Worse
yet, is when they do it over and over.
I don't agree with the customer testimonials, I think one's work speaks
for itself, and to that end, your website is pretty good in that it shows
past and present tampers, clearly photographed. Moreover, you have not
committed the grave sin of using FRONTPAGE, which tells the world that they
who use it are running their business out of a phonebooth. Your website is
your storefront, and your store is a good one.
--
Cordially,
Sonam Dasara
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
GRCPIPES
d
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Mingkahuna
>ASP. You clearly mark advertisements as {AD}, and do not put a blurb for
>your business when you reply to a post. I like that.
Well, I do put a link under my name from time to time.
> I resent it when some sellers post bullshit simply to have their
>business name and a link to their website made visible to the group. Worse
>yet, is when they do it over and over.
That tends to get to me as well. I will only put a link if something is
happening like a sale or update, and only in a thread where I am making some
kind of contribution to the conversation.
> I don't agree with the customer testimonials, I think one's work speaks
>for itself, and to that end, your website is pretty good in that it shows
>past and present tampers, clearly photographed. Moreover, you have not
>committed the grave sin of using FRONTPAGE, which tells the world that they
>who use it are running their business out of a phonebooth. Your website is
>your storefront, and your store is a good one.
Well, the past tampers are coming in the form of a gallery a bit down the road.
But, the site that Jon Tillman fixed me up with could probably run a good
sized corporation ;-))
In addition to the ads and web page my concern goes to how we describe our own
work. For example, if I feel that a piece is "wonderful" should I baulk at
saying so? A dealer might say, "Sir, this Uberpipe is a wonderful pipe" but if
Mr. Uber says so is he boastful, or accurate as he sees things to be, and does
he risk appearing cocky and arrogant by being honest in his evaluation of his
own work? Can he wear two hats in this situation?
Art
Trever Talbert
names are used. They tell prospective buyers that you have satisfied
customers out there and that they were happy enough to let you know about
it."
FWIW, I've never believed in these and virtually never pay any attention to
them. You're never going to see negative comments in any of the
testimonials that make it onto a sales site, so I have never seen the point.
I posted a query about this a while back when I was redoing our website and
debating as to whether such a thing would be a useful addition, and the
general response wasn't sufficiently pro to spur me to add one. Also,
somehow it seems like bragging to slather my website with lots of praise
letters from buyers - if I say that a pipe is really nice then that's just
my personal opinion and it shouldn't really carry much weight, but posting
fan mail strikes me as really heavy personal stroking, somehow... I dunno,
maybe JMO!
--
Happy smoking,
Trever Talbert
http://www.talbertpipes.com
Chris Keene
> How have artisans in this group
>dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
>various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the course
>of selling their work?
>
>Art
Art-
In your case, and in the case of a some other artisans as well, the
enthusiasm for your work (that is, the act of creating the product or
piece) comes through very clearly. You use, as a benchmark, your own
previous work rather than making comparisons and judgements based on
the work of others. None of this seems boastful to me. Pride in
personal accomplishment, I think, is what you demonstrate, and I have
no problem with that.
When you, or Trever or Greg or Neil, for instance, describe in great
detail the creative process or the technical obstacles overcome, I
sometimes get lost. But then sometimes I don't and I actually learn
something.
And the learning is key for me. It's tough, I'm sure, to figure what
to say and how to say it. But in this venue, at least, it is all a
part of the larger discussion as much as it is marketing. Does that
make sense?
-Chris
Sean Chercover
<snip>
>
> In addition to the ads and web page my concern goes to how we describe our
own
> work. For example, if I feel that a piece is "wonderful" should I baulk at
> saying so? A dealer might say, "Sir, this Uberpipe is a wonderful pipe"
but if
> Mr. Uber says so is he boastful, or accurate as he sees things to be, and
does
> he risk appearing cocky and arrogant by being honest in his evaluation of
his
> own work? Can he wear two hats in this situation?
Art,
I wouldn't think recommend describing a tamper as "wonderful". It doesn't
really tell me anything, except that you like it. Well, of course you do.
Are you implying that your other tampers are not 'wonderful'? No. So they
are all wonderful. Describing every tamper on your site as 'wonderful'
would be silly. It is a 'sales fluff' word. So you might think of other
'sales fluff' words, to avoid being repetitive. Tamper #1 is
'wonderful'...tamper #2 is 'superlative'...tamper #3 is exquisite...tamper
#4 is 'fabulous'...and so on. And then you WILL look boastful.
Instead, I would recommend that you describe the SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES that
make you think the tamper is 'wonderful'.
"This shape exemplifies careful symmetry and feels balanced in the hand."
"This unusual asymmetrical tamper looks different from every angle."
"This material catches light and refracts it, resulting in great depth and
complexity of color."
"The soft-edged white swirls against deep purple are like wisps of smoke
against the evening sky."
...etc.
The point is, you are using plenty of poetic (and accurate) language to
communicate the attributes of each tamper, and hopefully the customer will
conclude, "wonderful". What you are not doing is saying, "This is a
wonderful tamper...I'm really talented...boy oh boy, is this a
beauty...you'll not see a tamper this nice anywhere else...etc."
I think if you stay focused on the attributes, describing them both
accurately and lyrically, then you will do a good job of 'selling' without
sounding either boastful or fluffy.
Best,
Sean
Trever Talbert
own
work. For example, if I feel that a piece is "wonderful" should I baulk at
saying so? A dealer might say, "Sir, this Uberpipe is a wonderful pipe" but
if
Mr. Uber says so is he boastful, or accurate as he sees things to be, and
does
he risk appearing cocky and arrogant by being honest in his evaluation of
his
own work? Can he wear two hats in this situation?"
This is one of those areas of division where there are just two totally
different mindsets. Personally, I don't see it as boastful for you to
describe something you made (and really liked) as "wonderful" - that just
says to me that you're happy with it and, from an artisan's perspective,
you've had a rare experience of having something come out somewhere close to
as good as you'd hoped it would be. There are a lot of people who don't
understand the concept that it often comes as a complete surprise to an
artisan that something comes out OK, and him saying it "really turned out
perfect" means that it didn't turn sharply south during construction as so
many great ideas do. I remember once talking with a fellow who was
completely offended by what he described as my "arrogance" in claiming
something came out "perfect", because he was interpreting that statement to
somehow mean that I was saying the pipe was the definition of perfection
itself in a be-all, end-all sense, and in reality I just meant that it came
out as nice as I had hoped and I was lucky that I didn't screw it up along
the way. It was such a radically different interpretation of what I meant
that it really startled me that someone would even jump to that sort of
conclusion. These are two really divergent views though, and I've noticed
that the folks who get offended by such comments are usually not craftsmen
themselves and seem a bit eager to jump to the "arrogant" viewpoint.
Normally I don't worry much about this sort of thing, however, because I am
usually as critical (or more so) of my own work than I am happy with it.
(And there's a flip side there, too - I will often write detailed critiques
of problems that I see in the pipes I've made, and then people will write in
asking how I can actually sell something that I've acknowledged flaws in...
not realizing that I can easily find flaws in most anything and if artisans
only sold their "flawless" work, we'd barely ever produce anything.)
To my mind, it all boils down to whether the artisan has the ability to
self-criticize as well as self-praise. We're not stupid people, and if we
do something that comes out well we can generally recognize it, in which
case taking an "aw shucks" false-modesty attitude is as disingenuous as
self-inflation. As much as anything else, the ability to accurately
critique one's own work is key to ever getting better at the craft.
Mark Tinsky
Good work will sell itself. Except for some periodic
announcements that should be it.
To the best of my knowledge Larry Roush has never posted on ASP and he
s selling just about everything he makes these days, same With Jim
Cooke
MT (who is well known for his marketing skills <G> )
Sean Chercover
I have never thought either you or Art to be in any way 'arrogant'. But
yes, some folks will misinterpret anything that they can, as
'self-congratulatory.
I still think that it is far better to say something specific, rather than
"wonderful." If an artisan says, "what I really like about this piece
is..." that makes me think I'm learning something of substance. If he says,
"This piece is really great (wonderful, fabulous, perfect...whatever)," that
tells me very little. And is more open to being misinterpreted as
"boasting."
Best,
Sean
"Trever Talbert" <tal...@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message
news:bn3ude$skdsj$1...@ID-130341.news.uni-berlin.de...
Brian J. Geiger
<ne...@miletwo.com> wrote:
> In addition to customer testimonials mentioned above, I would also recommend
> a professional review written by people you trust. Perhaps hire a
> professional writer (like Brian Geiger) to write the copy for the site in
> 3rd person, so that it's not self-inflating, but rather 3rd-party
> commentary.
I do work in exchange for products and services, as well as cash,
incidentally.
Your checks on its way, m2. ;)
=Brian
--
See my Tobacco Reviews at <http://www.subluminal.com/weblog/Reviews/Tobacco/>.
Bernie
>
> FWIW, I've never believed in these and virtually never pay any attention
to
> them. You're never going to see negative comments in any of the
> testimonials that make it onto a sales site, so I have never seen the
point.
> I posted a query about this a while back when I was redoing our website
and
> debating as to whether such a thing would be a useful addition, and the
> general response wasn't sufficiently pro to spur me to add one. Also,
> somehow it seems like bragging to slather my website with lots of praise
> letters from buyers - if I say that a pipe is really nice then that's just
> my personal opinion and it shouldn't really carry much weight, but posting
> fan mail strikes me as really heavy personal stroking, somehow... I
dunno,
> maybe JMO!
>
I see your point and it's probably true for your business. I laughed out
loud at not seeing any negative comments on testimonial pages. They work
differently in different businesses and are used differently too. Some are
not used well and others just use them because they are a standard item.
When they work it is because the writer has more credibility in the
prospect's mind than the seller. The testimonial writer can have good or bad
credibility though. I've often seen things like "Great, superb" etc.
apparently authored by "JT, Michigan" as if everyone knows and trusts JT
from Michigan. Then there was the classic reversal of this with "Would you
buy a used car from this man?" You probably remember whose picture
accompanied this. If Greg Pease said a certain pipe maker or tobacco blend
was good it would command a lot of positive attention but if someone unknown
said the same thing it would have little effect.
A lot depends on the type of market you're in too. Selling to one-off buyers
requires a different approach than selling to collectors. Selling something
unique is different than selling commodities or me-too products where the
buyers know exactly what to expect. I consider the testimonials of those I
respect on ASP, made to ASP, about artisans and tobacco stores to be worth
something. I certainly don't buy on just a recommendation but I will
probably at least take a look at a seller's website rather than ignore them.
David Quisenberry
html product doesnt constitute a phonebooth business anymore than hiring IBM
to develop a enterprise level solution and giving them a ill thought out
design constitutes a professional webpresence. It is what goes into the
site, not what product is used to build it.
Bernie
You can be totally honest and say something like "I think this tamper is
beautiful and is one of the best I've ever made." and I think you can get
away with it as it is obviously your own opinion about your own work. You
are not pretending it to be otherwise. But if you said "This is a beautiful
tamper and the best ever made" then you would be asking for trouble!
Brian J. Geiger
<mingk...@aol.com> wrote:
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB and
> reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece? How have artisans in this group
> dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
> various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the course
> of selling their work?
I'll be reinforcing some points made by others (i.e. repeating, but
with my own special flare), but I don't think I have much new to add.
First, I wouldn't worry about it so much. As far as your existing
promotion, I personally don't see that as a bad thing.
Second, go with descriptions, rather than exclaimations, if you want to
write things out.
Third, as far as your site goes, it would benefit from some easier
navigation far more than it would from altering the descriptions that
are there.
The only time I, as a consumer, would be offended by an artisan talking
about his own work is if he were comparing it to someone else's work in
a less than favorable method, (i.e. "This pipe is like a Dunhill, but
good" sort of thing).
David Quisenberry
respected people (webmaster's tongue firmly in cheek).
"Mark Tinsky" <m...@mt.net> wrote in message
news:mt-C05E88.12...@news.mt.net...
Taka Coyote
1. Who is your target market. As Bernie wrote on-off buyers are a
different target segment than collectors.
2. Testimonials are much different than "Proof of Performance" and
still much different than recommendations and referrals.
POP is, "I've used Ming tampers for years, they always give me the very
best tamp." Or, in the case of art, "Sometimes I just sit and look at
this tamper as I smoke my pipe. Every time I look at it I see something
new." Recommendation: "The Dark Lord of Tobacco blending uses ONLY
Ming tampers." Referral: "Hey this is Lee Van Cleef, I was the bad guy
in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, you probably saw me smoking my pipe
in that movie. If you would have watched very closely you would have
seen me using a Ming tamper. You have GOT to get yourself one of these,
they are fantastic." This can be a celebrity endorsement or Susie
Nobody can do the same thing. Celebrity testimonials are another
animal. Testimonials from anonymous persons are viewed with as
ineffectual by most people. Anonymous is: JB, Dallas, etc.
3. Are you emphasizing features or benefits. Features are height,
width, brass foot. Benefits are, "When you take this tamper out and tamp
your pipe women will swoon, strong men will become envious, other pipe
smokers will gladly give you the respect you are due."
4. One of the most effective marketing strategies is, "You take no risk
what so ever, I, the artist and sell take ALL the risk. If you don't
like this tamper, return it to me, you get your money back, no questions
asked. All I ask is that you don't use it."
5. One internet marketing strategy that works is eBay feedback. 244
positive responses is some what reassuring.
6. In selling art. The majority of buyers are much more likely to
purchase art after they have met, talked to, or communicated with the
artist.
SO, what should the artist say?
Artist who regularly sell their work do not hype it it any way. However,
they allow the art speak for itself PLUS. They explain the process,
they explain the material, they explain the inspiration, etc.
"I was looking at this piece of acrylic acetate blank and I could see
how the this shape would bring out the design inside the acrylic, the
shape would high light the blues and green."
Trever wrote: "aw shucks" false-modesty attitude is as disingenuous as
self inflation." This is very true in the minds of art buyers. People
who buy art are purchasing something unique, one of a kind, hand crafted
by another human being, false modesty is not what they prefer.
And again, #1. Who is your target market, the answer to this question
will provide you with many, many answers.
Disclaimer: The above is just my take on this subject, it's not meant
to be definitive, other opinions will vary. That's always a good thing,
for other opinons to vary. This is information from marketing studies
and my own experience.
(I have owned a marketing company for the past 24 years. Much more
importantly we've been privy to very expensive market research. We have
also marketed fine art and not so fine art.)
MWR
whose asp presence is a never-ending commercial or those who
find it necessary to belabour their works in every second
post. Especially those who piously announce their
no-ads-on-asp-policy just to make sure every one knows how
to read their publicity barrages.
MWR
"Mark Tinsky" <m...@mt.net> wrote in message
news:mt-C05E88.12...@news.mt.net...
>
Sagiter
second time this week I've been belittled but what appears to be a truly
pompous ass.
Well, interesting thread and comments. I don't use testimonials as I don't
believe in them. I don't use any kind of praise-like words for my stuff on
my site as that seems all like bullshit to me anyway. In my other life I'm a
private investigator and I listen to people talk about other people all the
time. It's all bullshit. In 20 years I've been given one reference where the
person when contacted said "He gave my name as a reference". Every other one
is always superlative. It's all bullshit.
I know I make the best pipe bag available on the market. They might not be
the prettiest but I know the bags I make will last way past the life of the
buyer. I have pictures of a bag being made on my shitty little FrontPage
site because too many people don't believe that they are done by hand,
entirely by hand, every stitch. I sew at shows for this reason as well. When
people question the need for hand-stitching I explain. Since I really don't
have a lack of work I must be doing something well. I am not an artisan
although people have a tendency to refer to me as one. I've mastered a craft
and a pretty damned forgotten one at that. Time was when you bought a bag or
briefcase it lasted forever, I like that kind of workmanship and am proud
that I continue in that tradition.
btw...I use FrontPage because it's easy and it works if that means that
people won't buy my stuff so be it. I used to do all my HTML coding long
hand and that's a major pain in the ass and way too time consuming, plus
since I work in a fucking phone booth I'd just like to get it done and get
out for some fresh air. I list my business every time I post because I'm
proud of my work. True it's a marketing tool, but I really don't have the
time to remove it every time I post or write a letter. I like my life
simple, I ran a big fancy business and had a pretty major title, I even had
a fancy credit card modem slide through terminal once. Considering most
small phone booth based businesses never see their client's credit card I
find that telling people in this type of business to spend the money to get
one is truly idiotic and shows no understanding of small business at all.
Besides my phone booth is full right now with leather stuff, my laptop and
everything else. Some would probably consider me a failure now that I run
three small businesses of my own out of a phone booth but so be it. I like
my life the way it is.
Lastly, I have always believed that at least 50% of all the attorneys in the
US are extraneous pieces of shit who do nothing at all but try to fuck
people out of their money and talk people into putting their nose where it
doesn't belong. They are lonely sad little people who create nothing and
live their lives to destroy others. They strut around like pompous assholes
never failing to remind people of who they are and demanding respect for
themselves and their opinions, neither of which they have earned. They enjoy
belittling people they consider beneath them. That's life and that's why
there are so many lawyer jokes out in the world.
--
Neil Flancbaum
Craftsman
Home of the Ultimate Pipe Bag
http://www.smokinholsters.com
MWR
website) in the least bit self-laudatory. Whenever I read
the descriptions of your work I sense quite the opposite,
the honest, almost painful strive to be as objective as
possible without being impassionate about your work. More
importantly, I always see the impetus for perfection in your
words, sometimes as though to spurn you on to the next
quest...
If I should be fortunate enough to own one of your
masterpieces I feel I would most certainly outdo any
laudation your own modesty and self-critique would have
allowed.
MWR
"Trever Talbert" :
Mingkahuna
>s selling just about everything he makes these days, same With Jim
>Cooke
Mark, this really isn;t about ASP, it is more what we say about our own work on
our web sites.
Art
Larry Luffman
been created with ones own hands.I believe that if a person sells a quality
product that is priced relative to the quality of said product,within reach of
the customer base it is made for,and provides good customer service.
That person and their product will develope a reputation that leads to
success.I for one have noticed no arrogance on the part of dealers here on
asp.I consider them to be the foundation of this group.I applaud them and
others like them for keeping pipe smoking alive not only for us but future
generations as well.
NCguy
Mingkahuna
It was a general question not aimed at me, thank you.
And yes, there are one or two navigation points that need to be ironed out, but
most have commented on how easy the site is to navigate. And, this is really
all besides the point that I was addressing.
Art
Mingkahuna
to be a general discussion on the subject offered. I'm not looking for advice,
only opinions.
Thanks.
Art
Brian J. Geiger
<mingk...@aol.com> wrote:
Then I would expand my comments out a bit to say that, "The level at
which, to pick an example completely at random, www.ming-kahuna.com
does things is an acceptible level to me, the consimer," with whatever
other little comments I might have thrown in.
Mingkahuna
>which, to pick an example completely at random, www.ming-kahuna.com
>does things is an acceptible level to me, the consimer," with whatever
>other little comments I might have thrown in.
LOL, oh go carve a tamper ;-)
Art
Allen
I think everyone have posted some very good thoughts concerning these
issues. Personally, I have to admit I totally love the discussions
about specific pieces, why you like them, and why you as the artisan
would place them above the others in quality, or asthetics. If it's
described properly, I can try and decide if my asthetics correlates to
your asthetics, and decide whether to agree or not. If however, no
information is given as to why you like something, I can't decide if I
agree with you based on the picture and a nonsense description.
So, Sean has it right here, I think.
I also think the other comments about laudates from people who are well
known are also good in moderation. You want to lead credence to your
work and web-site, so that someone doesn't think you're someone
producing crap and selling it as gold... i.e., if Ebert and Ropert (who
the other party will know immediately) gives you a thumbs-up... I can
then decide either Ebert and Ropert are idiots, and I never agree with
their thumbs-up, or they are well-known and I generally agree with them,
and so I should check out your movie entitled "The Tamper's Grit"
starring Bear as Art (aka Ming), and Art (aka Ming) as Bear... oh,
woops, sorry, i got sidetracked... [I need to get out more..]
The purpose here is to inform the somewhat less informed in a way that
has "data" involved in it. Then it's up to the buyer (the uninformed in
this case) to decide if he agrees with your opinion based on the "data".
I'd also greatly apprecite a website similar to Sean's discussion of
your individual pieces, because it helps me to know you as an artisan
better. Perhaps you like fluidity rather than edges? You can describe
perhaps how long it took you to perfect a particular shape, and that
this one piece is the culmination of your efforts... these sorts of
things make your pieces more alive with your own artisan's energies.
Rather than just saying this is "awesome".
But, other things can lead credence and stability to your enterprise.
Tell us about your other artwork... tell us about how many tampers
you've made and sold perhaps...(and who you deal with- japan etc.) talk
about your interests and muses for the tampers. All these things mean
there's more there than just tampers to me. And that's a great thing in
the end I believe. [And I know you have answers to all these things
'cause I've heard some of them here on asp, and they're wonderful.]
And, in the end, you can always say you're excellent and "here's why".
:) The pieces speak for themselves in that respect I believe.
Perhaps a guarantee also? If you don't like the part, and don't agree
with my feelings on the part, return it within 2 minutes for a complete
refund.. etc. ;)
Ok, this is probably just fluff. Thought I'd put my 2 cents in before I
lose my news priv's... my idiot university believes that an nntp server
costs more than a damn web-board for classes, so they're chopping out
nntp service. <ack>... but i'm working on an alternative right now...
Cheers, Art, and it's wonderful to see you're even concerned with this
at all... it means you have integrity and interest in how others feel
about you and your work, and that to me is a sign of humility and of
greatness.
Best Regards,
-Allen
ahall -deletemeandaddanatsign- uiuc.edu
In article <lYelb.9302$Uz6...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Sean Chercover" <se...@spamchercover.com> wrote:
> Art,
> Instead, I would recommend that you describe the SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES that
> make you think the tamper is 'wonderful'.
> "This shape exemplifies careful symmetry and feels balanced in the hand."
> "This unusual asymmetrical tamper looks different from every angle."
> "This material catches light and refracts it, resulting in great depth and
> complexity of color."
> "The soft-edged white swirls against deep purple are like wisps of smoke
> against the evening sky."
> ...etc.
>
> The point is, you are using plenty of poetic (and accurate) language to
> communicate the attributes of each tamper, and hopefully the customer will
> conclude, "wonderful". What you are not doing is saying, "This is a
> wonderful tamper...I'm really talented...boy oh boy, is this a
> beauty...you'll not see a tamper this nice anywhere else...etc."
>
> I think if you stay focused on the attributes, describing them both
> accurately and lyrically, then you will do a good job of 'selling' without
> sounding either boastful or fluffy.
>
> Best,
> Sean
>
>
--
-Allen
ahall
deletemebefore you e-mail me
@uiuc.edu
Andrew Garner
I think you're on to something here about avoiding descriptions meant to
make the piece look good. The pictures and the work will do that; the
descriptions are for information abou the piece. Aside from the ordinary
stuff (material, style, etc.), one thing I would like to see more artisans
do is to talk about the artistic part of their work.
At the very basic level, a tamper is little more than a tool. If people are
buying them as tools then it makes no sense to spend more than a couple of
bucks on one of those Czech thingies. But what Art and others do is make
these tools into works of art (insert "Art" joke here). Art is a form of
expression and so each tamper is expressing something unique; it's a
statement by the maker of some sort. So perhaps it would be best to explain
a little about what is meant by the piece, or what that piece means to you
as the artisan. If it's a gallery of past work, then perhaps the customer
reviews would be appropriate if they spoke to what the piece meant to them
as pieces of art.
Saying that a piece of "beautiful" is like saying that it "really tamps
well"...it's stating the obvious. IMHO, the descriptions accompanying the
pieces should give us insight into the artistic expression of the piece. I
think that goes for tamper- and pipe-makers alike.
Andrew
"Sean Chercover" <se...@spamchercover.com> wrote in message
news:lYelb.9302$Uz6...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
John Grubb
A few years ago, I made in-expensive jewelry. Nothing out of gold but none
the less it was hand made and people did buy it. In my case, I was face to
face. I didn't need to expound my virtues as I wouldn't be able to do that
anyway but I let my work do the talking. People could make their own
judgement based on the work, not what they were told. I know it's a bit
different on the internet where you have to rely on pictures but a couple of
good quality shots that do justice to your work is almost as good. If the
customer knows they can return the product if it doesn't meet their
expectations then there is little stopping them from making the purchase.
Then there is the word of mouth that follows when you have a happy customer
and this will add to your rep as an artisan as well.
John G.
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> Here's a question to both artisans (including anyone who sells something
that
> they themselves make or produce) and to consumers.
>
> Since the Internet has become a way for artisans to sell without dealers
and
> distributors, it is a situation where the artisan is placed in the
position of
> acting as a salesman for his own "product." He doesn't have others
selling for
> him so he must sell for himself. It also puts him in a position where he
is
> almost required to be self-laudatory, to some degree. And, when one is to
any
> degree self-laudatory there is a real risk of appearing boastful, cocky
and
> even arroagant. Let a dealer make the same comments and it is just seen
as
> salesmanship, and depending on the reputation of the dealer it may carry
great
> weight almost to the point of a benediction of sorts. But again, let the
> artisan comment on his own work in the same manner and he risks a huge
image
> problem.
>
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB
and
> reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece? How have artisans in this
group
> dealt with this issue, if at all, and how do you as the consumer react to
> various comments made by artisans with regard to their own work in the
course
> of selling their work?
>
> Art
Mingkahuna
>customer knows they can return the product if it doesn't meet their
>expectations then there is little stopping them from making the purchase.
There is great truth in that, and good advice to all, who I believe in the pipe
world mostly follow that. I have had such a gurarantee for years as have
almost everyone else that I know of.
>Then there is the word of mouth that follows when you have a happy customer
>and this will add to your rep as an artisan as well.
This is true as well and it has gone far to build the reputation that I have
over the past five years. But, as long as we are on the topic, I have come to
actually discourage people from making public statements in favor my work.
There is a risk in that here on ASP you get the favored sons label (and all
the other names for that which mercifully escape me know), which is an
invitation to potshots that some can't pass up, and the people who voice their
opinions as to your work are classified as minions and toadies. To a degree you
end up in a position that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Art
VegasSmokes.com
of said product. If something is the "best" or is made in a superior fashion
don't be afraid to say so. Is Rolex's, Mercedes or Waterford's copy
perceived as arrogant? No, (well, maybe by those who have no aspirations to
buy or can't afford to) but it does attract a qualified buyers. FV
John Grubb
">
> This is true as well and it has gone far to build the reputation that I
have
> over the past five years. But, as long as we are on the topic, I have
come to
> actually discourage people from making public statements in favor my work.
> There is a risk in that here on ASP you get the favored sons label (and
all
> the other names for that which mercifully escape me know), which is an
> invitation to potshots that some can't pass up, and the people who voice
their
> opinions as to your work are classified as minions and toadies. To a
degree you
> end up in a position that you are damned if you do and damned if you
don't.
I do agree with you there when talking about community members. People tend
to make those assumptions even though in most cases they are very
unjustified. However in the case of those outside our community, I think it
is very different. It can be very benifitial. If I have had a good
experience purchasing a product and am satisfied with it, I will let people
know. I never turn them into a demi-god or anything, I just say that they
are great to deal with, honest, and have a good product. I realize that
going overboard is more damaging than benifitial so I just give them (and
show them the product if appropriate) and let them make up their own minds.
If I have had a bad experience I also let people know about it. I give them
the honest details of whatever was wrong.
John G.
Mingkahuna
>going overboard is more damaging than benifitial so I just give them (and
>show them the product if appropriate) and let them make up their own minds.
>If I have had a bad experience I also let people know about it. I give them
>the honest details of whatever was wrong.
Tony, butta-bing, you are right on.
Art
miletwo
sure to troll newsgroups and post your b.s. there as well, that always makes
you look more credible as a business person.
(m2)
(sorry Fred - you earned that one)
"VegasSmokes.com" <lvsmokes@REMOVE_THISearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:INilb.321$I04...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Mingkahuna
>sure to troll newsgroups and post your b.s. there as well, that always makes
>you look more credible as a business person.
Please, not here, not now.
Art
miletwo
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
"I will not post anything negative about Fred any more."
(m2)
VegasSmokes.com
news:bn4dn9$t3cui$1...@ID-205979.news.uni-berlin.de...
> And take Freddy's example and air your dirty laundry on the site too... be
> sure to troll newsgroups and post your b.s. there as well, that always
makes
> you look more credible as a business person.
>
> (m2)
>
> (sorry Fred - you earned that one)
Similar to how your unprovoked personal attacks on me live up to the
Christian ethics and principles touted on your website. And you sir have
earned that. Now cut the BS. FV
VegasSmokes.com
concerned about people's perceptions of your attitude as you side to be. For
the most part you come off very pleasant and enthusiastic about your work.
Your should take pride in what you do and tout it a bit. Pride in work is at
an all time low and personally I find it refreshing. FV
--
http://www.vegassmokes.com All your pipe smokin' needs at Rock Bottom
Prices!!
http://www.tobaccoblending.com Pipe Tobacco Blending Made Easy - Free
Resource Guide
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021190219...@mb-m15.aol.com...
Dick Muldoon
>
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB
and
> reamin accurate in his assessment of a piece?
Interesting. I started selling jewelry via the net and let pictures tell
the story,
but it was very slow. I had better luck selling on consignment, and I
got an unexpected boost when I started including a card with each piece
describing the components (gold/silver/bocote/rosewood/sapphire/topaz/etc.)
and the kind of person/persona/situation I had in mind when I made it.
I've also stuck with one specialty store owner and tailored my pieces to her
clientele.
She tells me she gets repeat business from folks asking for more pieces made
"for a reading mood" or "for sunny can't-get-to-the-beach days" and so on
...
The key, I think, is helping people see or understand what's special about
a piece, or maybe just suggesting ways they might invest parts of themselves
in any item.
You do it well: I don't collect tampers but I absolutely LUST for
one of your "Blood of Kings" pieces ... because for no apparent reason
they just call out to me. I can't think of a single superlative on your
site, just the pictures and the glorious connotations of the name"Blood
of Kings" ... Perfect example of how to do it right :-)
Dick Muldoon
Mingkahuna
>Christian ethics and principles touted on your website. And you sir have
>earned that. Now cut the BS. FV
Dang, for a minute I thought Freddy was talking about me and my fricking
foreskin grew back.
Art
Smoking Travis
> foreskin grew back.
>
> Art
Art,
That's damn funny. I can just imagine the look on your face as you peek
down your trousers to check! LOL!!
--
Travis
I came for the knowledge,
I stayed for the people.
Smokin' Racks
http://Pipes.WyndMyre.com
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021191451...@mb-m15.aol.com...
Chris Keene
That is a weird thing.
Mingkahuna
>
Yes, decidedly so!
Art
miletwo
(m2)
:-)
A.T. Barr
FrontPage to build a website? I run my business out of my basement (my shop)
and my office (spare bedroom). What is so wrong with that?
A.T.
--
"Take away my people but leave my factory and soon grass will grow on the
factory floors.
Take away my factories but leave my people and soon we will have a new and
better factory"
Andrew Carnegie
"Sonam Dasara"
>Moreover, you have not
> committed the grave sin of using FRONTPAGE, which tells the world that
they
> who use it are running their business out of a phonebooth. Your website is
> your storefront, and your store is a good one.
A.T. Barr
A.T.
--
"Take away my people but leave my factory and soon grass will grow on the
factory floors.
Take away my factories but leave my people and soon we will have a new and
better factory"
Andrew Carnegie
"Mingkahuna"
Brian J. Geiger
<alber...@alltel.net> wrote:
> "grave sin " Just what in the heck is wrong with me or anyone else using
> FrontPage to build a website? I run my business out of my basement (my shop)
> and my office (spare bedroom). What is so wrong with that?
I don't know if there is any more. Back in the day, Front Page was
terribly incompatible with non-Windows, non-IE browsers. I think it's
better now.
A.T. Barr
I'm afraid that Bill Gates rules.
A.T.
--
"Take away my people but leave my factory and soon grass will grow on the
factory floors.
Take away my factories but leave my people and soon we will have a new and
better factory"
Andrew Carnegie
"Brian J. Geiger"
Brian J. Geiger
<alber...@alltel.net> wrote:
> I agree. A few years ago, IE had a *lot* of competing browsers. Not no more.
> I'm afraid that Bill Gates rules.
With the Mac, there's still Safari. And a few others for any given
platform. But Front Page seems not so eager to break things any more,
either.
John Hamilton McGrath
We're doing "ART" for sale. We may occasionally get a little boastful...
...big deal.
It would be more interesting, methinks - to recognize and examine the
arrogance frequently demonstrated by... <lotsa deleted stuff about
talentless critics that would wither under the same light we're subjected
to>
John
==========================
John Hamilton McGrath
Handcrafted Pipes:
http://www.pipe-works.net/
==========================
----------
In article <20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com>,
mingk...@aol.com (Mingkahuna) wrote:
>
>
> Here's a question to both artisans (including anyone who sells something that
> they themselves make or produce) and to consumers.
>
> Since the Internet has become a way for artisans to sell without dealers and
> distributors, it is a situation where the artisan is placed in the position of
> acting as a salesman for his own "product." He doesn't have others selling
for
> him so he must sell for himself. It also puts him in a position where he is
> almost required to be self-laudatory, to some degree. And, when one is to any
> degree self-laudatory there is a real risk of appearing boastful, cocky and
> even arroagant. Let a dealer make the same comments and it is just seen as
> salesmanship, and depending on the reputation of the dealer it may carry great
> weight almost to the point of a benediction of sorts. But again, let the
> artisan comment on his own work in the same manner and he risks a huge image
> problem.
>
> So, how does an artisan sell his work without coming off like a cocky SOB and
VegasSmokes.com
OOooch ... that sounds more painful than when it was removed. Dang. FV
VegasSmokes.com
> Freddy Vegas RULES!!!
>
> (m2)
>
> :-)
Nah. You rule. I'm just a guy who loves everything pipes and tobacco, single
malt scotch, latin women, Sinatra (even in the bad years), most people and
anything Christmas but has O.C.D, A.D.D., dyslexia, a NYC attitude (problem)
and mood swings of epic proportions. To know me is to love me ... but too
many prefer to judge me instead. Thier lose I suppose. Nope, you rule. FV
>
>
Crecy
Wow, a lot of replies.
Sell your work. Sell it. Hawk it. Scream to the heavens how much better
you are then anyone else. And then stand behind it.
"You WILL enjoy this pipe better than any other pipe in its price range!
and if you don't, send it back I'll refund you in full, including shipping,
and maybe throw in a tin of tobacco for your time and trouble."
I recently sold a clay pipe with a 1" dia. bowl that is over 3 inches deep.
I boasted that if he could smoke that whole bowl in 20 minutes the smoke
would still be cool and dry on the last puff. I was only guessing (educated
guess) but had that pipe gurgled once I would have given him his cash back.
Boasting is good. It shows confidence and love of your craft. Just back it
up.
Cheers,
Chris
"what is your favorite piece?" I asked my mentor.
"all of them, none of them. I love the process, the art. The end result I
think so little of that I can put a price on it and trade it for money."
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Arthur
I'm sure you remember Rick Newcombe put up an ads here few month back,
now his book is being sold all over the world, and I did see a Germany
site selling it.
In the cyber world, good news spread fast, so are the bad ones.
Arthur
mingk...@aol.com (Mingkahuna) wrote in message news:<20031021130102...@mb-m17.aol.com>...
Briarroot
And here I almost missed this thread because of the title.
Fun, fun, fun! ;-)
Regards,
Tim Parker ... VA#1 in a no-name apple
miletwo
wrote:
WE LOVE FREDDY V! WE LOVE FREDDY V! WE LOVE FREDDY V!
I need a beer. Anyone care to join me? Guiness and BlueNote on the
patio in 5,4,3,2,1....
(m2)
ip...@ptd.net
> Damned if we do - damned if we don't.
>
> We're doing "ART" for sale. We may occasionally get a little boastful...
> ...big deal.
> It would be more interesting, methinks - to recognize and examine the
> arrogance frequently demonstrated by... <lotsa deleted stuff about
> talentless critics that would wither under the same light we're subjected
> to>
>
When you put your product out there you are essentially putting yourself out
there. Sometimes the "critics" are those who have, in their own time, been
under the very same microscope. Other times they merely may be the average
Joe who knows what he does, and does not, want.
Sometimes the hardest thing is to get beyond personal ego and accept the
criticism, opinion, and dissapointment from those who we sometimes, in our
own defensive posturing, too readily dismiss as arrogant, without talent, or
ignorant.
One's desire to gratuitously "boast" is of course his own business.
Personally, although I agree it's no "big deal", I've always found it to be
an unattractive substitute for something else that may be missing.
Nizo
Mingkahuna
It has certainly given me some insight as to how other artisans as well as
consumers view the issue. Certainly much food for thought, and hopefully uesful
to many.
Art
John Hamilton McGrath
==========================
John Hamilton McGrath
Handcrafted Pipes:
http://www.pipe-works.net/
==========================
----------
In article <BBBD426F.17A7C%ip...@ptd.net>, "ip...@ptd.net" <ip...@ptd.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> Damned if we do - damned if we don't.
>>
>> We're doing "ART" for sale. We may occasionally get a little boastful...
>> ...big deal.
>> It would be more interesting, methinks - to recognize and examine the
>> arrogance frequently demonstrated by... <lotsa deleted stuff about
>> talentless critics that would wither under the same light we're subjected
>> to>
>>
> When you put your product out there you are essentially putting yourself out
> there. Sometimes the "critics" are those who have, in their own time, been
> under the very same microscope. Other times they merely may be the average
> Joe who knows what he does, and does not, want.
Agreed - but these are not those that I refer to...
>
> Sometimes the hardest thing is to get beyond personal ego and accept the
> criticism, opinion, and dissapointment from those who we sometimes, in our
> own defensive posturing, too readily dismiss as arrogant, without talent, or
> ignorant.
...surely, you've noticed some individuals that display a "professional"
expertise - but because of "personal" issues they may harbor against a given
artist, they'll use subtle methods with their criticisms to injure. Often,
rather than an honest, merit based critique of the work - they will use
comparisons to the work of others employing different styles and compare
pricing structures, etc., etc. Small pond stuff ya know...
>
> One's desire to gratuitously "boast" is of course his own business.
> Personally, although I agree it's no "big deal", I've always found it to be
> an unattractive substitute for something else that may be missing.
Yeah - your probably right. Still, I'd prefer to look for what a person that
does this has to offer - rather than what they're lacking.
ip...@ptd.net
>> One's desire to gratuitously "boast" is of course his own business.
>> Personally, although I agree it's no "big deal", I've always found it to be
>> an unattractive substitute for something else that may be missing.
>
> Yeah - your probably right. Still, I'd prefer to look for what a person that
> does this has to offer - rather than what they're lacking.
>>
I've found that what they have to offer, be it product or self, is usually
as empty as their false bravado.
Nizo
Sean Chercover
>
> No wonder I ain't been selling no pipes!
Uh, I think your inventory problem may have something to do with it.<g>
-Sean