boyfriend destroyer
Aardvark
On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, PATRICK DUQUET wrote:
> Date: Sat, 31 AUG 1996 21:34:42 -0400
> From: PATRICK DUQUET <duq...@megatoon.com>
> Newgroups: alt.seduction.fast
> Subject: Re: boyfriend destroyer
>
> Hi Jon!
>
> od...@netcom.com (Jon Granrose) wrote:
>
> > Anyone out there have any suggestions on how to go about getting a woman to
> > leave a boyfriend she's living with but doesn't love? I've tried
> > everything I can think of, the only reason she can give me is it's "easier"
> > since she's leaving in October. I say she would be better off leaving now
> > and enjoying the time before she leaves (with me, of course, but anything
> > would be better than this guy she's with now). This is the same jealous
> > possessive guy I mentioned before and I've already tried the basic
> > boyfriend desctroyer and the "that reminds me of a friend who had a
> > possessive boyfriend..." bits. It worked, I got the date, and the phone #
> > but she still won't leave the guy which means she has to schedule me around
> > when he works, etc. which gives me hardly any time at all.
> >
> > In summary, it's like she wants me, and she wants to leave him, but nothing
> > I can do, directly or indirectly seems to be able to get her to make that
> > jump. So any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Talk directly to the boyfriend! Just the two of you. I'm sure this is
> even more of a challenge and you catch him by surprise with this: you're just
> a friend of her and you're "concerned" about her and him. Be nice and pay
> for the meal - this way, you can learn a lot of interesting stuff about her
> to maybe get her. Good luck!
i gotta tell you patrick, you got 'em like king kong. that is as sneaky
as it is good.
you post this from the standpoint of someone who tried this before. have
you?
aardvark
James King
I've tried this before, too, but I'd invite them over for dinner, rather
than taking them out to eat. Somehow, SHE's always impressed with my
cooking and presentation and HE's shamed into thinking he doesn't do
enough for her. I enjoy cooking for others, so if it turns out that I'm
really not interested in her after all, I chalk up the experience as
"cooking practice" for when I find that really special person. I don't
use the "concern" method anymore though ... the guy seems to catch on
that I'm interested in "his girl" and starts to put up his defenses. My
goal is to cook a good meal for two friends and learn a little more
about each other.
Of course, when SHE wants me to cook just for her, it's not bad, either
..... :)
From the "Bistro and Entertainment Emporium" that is my apartment, I
remain
James
Aardvark
On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Jon Granrose wrote:
> Hey Pat,
>
> good idea. Sneaky, but direct. I like it. But there's a problem. Here's
> the update.
>
>
> She's also been pretty manipulative, but I didn't catch it until recently,
manipulative.
bad news. this chick's gonna put your stinger in the wringer if you don't
dump her & pronto. ross' materials really cover this well. she can't take
it & she doesn't seem very giving either. the girl is a bad catch all the
way around.
> woman. When I see them together I can't help but feel sorry for him, he
> doesn't have a clue what's going on here. He's so out of his league he
> doesn't even know it. And she's been playing each of us off the other, it
> just wasn't apparent until the last few days. (it's been a busy two
> weeks... ;-)
forget about them both. too bad for the guy he treated her like crap. he
gets what he is used to getting. you on the other hand, are there's
nothing you can gain from this situation. if you got a kiss or two (or
better) from the girl chalk it up to the minor win column & cash in your
slot tokens at the window.
being a manipulator makes her a bad catch. this is the "bullshit test"
that she's putting you through because she is such. only problem is there
are many more women you can pursue. hell, i just recently fell seriously
for a woman of great taste, personality, looks, & most of all *character*
we a officially "going together" but i still see 4 other chicks & call 3
more. i *really* like her a lot, but i keep my options open just in case
things don't work out.
if you live in a big city, then finding dates should never be a problem.
there are lots of places that women go like ice cream parlors, yogurt
shops, coffee houses, etc. stake out those places, use the techniques
(they work) and win. you are a regular on here, jon. do you know what that
makes you?
one of us. should you wish to consider yourself one. that means we care
about whether or not you are successful with women. very few men know
what we know. this is where our ability to instill thoughts & experiences
these women have had & then intensify them makes us on an equal (and
often better) footing with her other potential suitors.
> If anyone has any more advice, I'd love to hear it, but this whole
> situation is looking like a write-off right now.
good idea. and good luck to you, john;
aardvark
IAMM...@worldnet.att.net
> From my perspective, the more she realizes how
> interested she is in me, the more scared she gets and the tigher she
> clings
> to this guy. She's going to leave this guy when she leaves town, but
> she's
> retreated into some serious denial it seems. I know it, but she doesn't
> seem to see it.
Just wanted to say hello, I'm new to the group, and to Ross's materials. I've
just started the home study course and am really enjoying it. Even though I've
been a hypnotherpist for the past five years I haven't gotten into NLP in depth
yet. I am familiar with Ericson's techniques however. It seems to me that NLP
is simply hypnosis without the trance.
I'm finding as I study Ross' stuff that I've been using unknowingly using his
techniques for years. The women in my life (ever since I've been trained in
hypnosis) have always been "under control." I personally don't like too much
variety so I usually keep three women in my life. Any more and it ceases to be
fun for me.
So far what's been a revelation to me is whe Ross say "if you don't like the
decision, CHANGE THE STATE." All the time I thought persistance paid off but it
didn't really, the reason persistance SEEMED to work was that I got a chance to
ask for what I wanted while she was in various states, so eventually by the
luck of the draw I eventully got her when she was in the right state. I never
even thought to ENGINEER the state myself! AWESOME!!
As for this woman you're messing with, I think she probably fits into the
"walking around dead inside" catgory mentioned on page 15 of the Home Study
Course Book. Try not to let your eyes, ears, or eager dick deceive you. Let her
actions show you what she is. If it's still FUN for you then fine, but it sonds
like she's getting to your head. Remember until she starts acting like a person
she's not a person, she's YOUR SUBJECT. Never forget this.
Stephen
David Barron
On 09-05-96 od...@netcom.com wrote to ALL...
> I've been getting by on the newsletters
> and other tidbits. But I'm impressed with how well it's worked so far
> so I'm planning on getting the basic course. After all, I've spent more
Amen. I started on the Newsletter and the first thing I read was
about putting up with a womans bullshit. WOW!! Had I been a sucker
for a long time....
> (i.e. I got my winkie out of the wringer... ;-) I still want this woman,
> but I've re-evaluated my priorities and methods, not to mention my
> timeline. I still plan to try my hardest for the rest of the month,
> but if it doesn't happen, I can accept that with no regrets (ok,
> maybe a few, she's one damn fine woman... ;-).
Thats the secret. Know when to cut your losses.
Suggestions for you?
Don't invest too much in getting this relationship to go anywhere.
Do what you can. Have fun with it and let her know you don't
give shit whether or not she figures out you're the best thing
that can happen to her.
o > -j
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IAMM...@worldnet.att.net
> Anyone? Anyone? Step right up. I've strayed from the teachings of Ross,
> or at least the ones I know, but there's not much else going on here these
> days, so I figured it would give you guys something to chew on... ;-)
>
First thing that hits me to ask you is, is there anyone else you are working
on? I think it would help to find more than one subject. Another thing you
might try, since you won't take are advise and forget her, is try to find out
what the boyfriend did to get her and what he's giving her to keep her.
From what she's told you about why she's staying with the boyfriend I would
approach her with something like, "look I know we've never actually been
together but I have developed feelings for you as if we are in a relationship,
what's happening here is hurting me because I feel this bond with you as if
I've known you all my life, maybe even other lives, I can't just let you go..."
See, some women won't leave one relationship until they are sure they have
another one sewn up. They are addicted to the emotional connection and they
need to protect their supply. Assure her that her emotional supply is protected
and you may get her. Also this kind doesn't want to hurt anyone. While you play
it cool she only has to worry about his feelings. If she knows no matter what
you or him will get hurt it will even the playing field for you. Let her
understand that it is only a matter of time that she and him WILL break up. And
the longer she waits the more it will hurt him AND you.
Also you might consider helping her solve the problem of a new place to move
WHEN she breaks up. Become her partner in crime, help her plan the "great
escape."
Good Luck, Stephen
IAMM...@worldnet.att.net
> Can you give me some examples of this. I'm gonna get the basic home
> course
> but I'd imagine that's gonna take a while to get here and I have less than
> a month in this case. The main problem with trying anything like this is
> I'm having a difficult time getting time over the phone, let alone time
> face to face with this woman. Gotta get her away from her bf, but can't
> do
> that if I don't get the time, barring pushing his buttons to do something
> she'll leave him for, it's a catch-22. So, how would one engineer a the
> desired state and what state would that be? Any suggestions on getting
> the
> bf out of the picture would be nice too... ;-)
>
If you don't have time with her then you need to use the short time you are
with her to gather information as to when you can cathch her alone at home or
work, church etc. Find out the boyfriends habits, find out hers.
I'm not well versed in Rosses techniques but my own are similar and have worked
well. First off you've got to get her alone and preferably sitting down. Next
what I do is get MYSELF into the mood I want her in. This is usually a warm
fuzzy, relaxed, I feel like I'm in heaven mood. If you can't do this at will,
practice this at home, learning to meditate is what gets you there. When you
put yourself in this state it will rub off on her. And she will see the peace
in you eyes and not fear you. It is in this state that a connection will occur.
Just be careful that you don't get sucked in by this feeling of connection.
Keep a place in the back of you mind that she is your subject. Don't go for
anything sexual in this particular case. You are giving her "treatments" and
each time you do this she will bond to you more and more. Don't break the
trance by getting physical. This can be done from across a counter as well,
usually love at first sight comes from across a crowded room, but ideally you
want her full attention. This is non-verbal seduction and has worked wonders
for me, now once I combine it with Rosses linguistic techniques it will be
awesome. I also use Ritual Magick on the tough one's and it never fails. But I
won't get into that just yet. I don't even know if you know how to meditate.
Basically however my goal is not just to get laid and that's it, it doesn't
sound like you only want a one nights stand with this woman either. What I
shoot for is a relationship where I have the complete loyalty and dedication of
the woman. The kind where she would do anything for me. The women in my life
love me, take care of me, cook for me, are faithful to me even though they know
I have other relationships. I've yet to get them all into bed together but with
the addition of Rosses techniques, who knows!
Take Care, Stephen
DrSmooth
I feel for you, i really do. I went through the same exact thing about a
year ago, almost exactly identical. This is what works, (trust me i wen
thru trial an error)
First You need to work on yourself, Fuck her for this step. You need to
supercharge your confidence, because obviuosly it is low or you would
not have let this happen.(like mine was). Know whats good for you, and
go for it and move away from whats bad.
Second, Realize why shes doing this to you. BECAUSE she can!...She knows
she can shovel this shit to you and you wont go anywhere because she can
sense it in you (the confidence).
Third Like Russ always says, Try to detach you "emotional attachments"
to her and look simple at her actions. Its kinda hard at first because
you think you "love" her and it blurrs thing, a product of the emotional
minds. By looking at what she does logically you will see how much this
girl really sucks!..she is treating your like shit!
Fourth, Now that you have done these things, You need a plan of
action...
Are you going to axe her (which i suggest!) or gonna switch the tables
around...
Axing her is wise if your going for a relationship because i guarentee
unless your a hardass at this stuff she will cheat on you..and besides
why do u want a girl that treated you like shit in the first place?
Turning the Tables (which i chose to do, revenge motivated probably)
The best thing i used that works was a combination of techniques. First
stop sending the cards, flowers blah blah blah.... Pull away your
attention, suddenly works best. You see she is used to having you want
her and when she feels thats gone she will want it back. I dont care if
you have to take cold shower to do this but it is necessary. THe best
way is to have many options open which lets u do it naturally but
anyways will do.
Second, Start dating other girls, even let her know about it (no
obviously) that will drive her crazy! guaranteed...she will want you
more if you use that in combination with the dramatic decrease in
attention.....
Third after awhile of thise you will notice she will come after you (90
% of the time and if not screw her), and then you have to pounce, go for
it straight off...when you hook up the most important thing is not to
slip back into your old mode again...keep going with the same thing even
after you hook up. She will want you even more bad! trust me...
This worked well for me, i had the girl that was screwing with my mind
for a year in the sack no problem, begging for me to be her boyfriend.
No joke, (Thanks to the mighty jefferies of course)...i told her thanks
but no thanks and denied her, why the hell would u want to date a girl
like that?....
Remember what RS says, never make anything too important like your doing
now, or you will get your ass kicked!
Hope this helps..keep us updated...
DS
IAMM...@worldnet.att.net
Know whats good for you, and
>go for it and move away from whats bad.
What puts Ross's stuff over the others is that it teaches you to get what YOU
want. Most of these bullshit books tell you at worst how to lie to a woman, at
best how to tell if she's interested in you.
Telling someone to move away from what's bad is good advise as long as you
don't find yourself doing it at the hint of any resistance. The thrust of SS is
to turn someone who doesn't want you into someone who does. Taking the path of
least resistance is how I and most men have done it all their lives. That's
settling for second best in my book.
Fuck what THEY want, it's my turn now!
Sincerely, Stephen
IAMM...@worldnet.att.net
> Slick, slick, slick. How did you come up with this stuff? This seems
> like a good idea. Also, I read your other article about your having lots
> of loyal women even when they knew you had other relationships. How did
> you
> pull that off? I would like to have that also.
>
Since several people asked my this question privately I think it should be sent
to the NG. I hope you don't mind...
The only way to pull it off is to be honest about your relationship style up as
soon as possible. DO NOT be specific until she falls for you. It is best to
speak in generalities. If she likes you in most cases she won't ask you
specifically about the women in your life once she knows your philosophy
because she is afraid of the answer she might get and what she must do when she
gets the "dreaded" answer. Eventually you will need to get into specifics. It
is important to convey to her that she is not going to like you very much in a
one on one relationship. What I tell my women is that, "anytime I've been in a
committed long term relationship it eventually self destructs because I don't
feel free. It's not that important that I BE with another woman than to have
the FREEDOM to be with another woman." She also needs to be made to understood
that love increases when shared, it's not devided. And also she needs to know
that you want to be with other NOT women because SHE is inadequate, but because
with that freedom you will be the best that you can be for her. Sort of the "if
I'm not happy you're not happy" idea. She alo needs to know that you will not
leave her for another woman, that you are not just looking for a "better"
replacement. I make it clear that this is way of life, I am a "polyamorist"
and I have no intention of ever leaving her. My motto is, "always in addition
to, never instead."
If all this stuff blows her away, and it will at times, back off and tell her,
"lets not be sexual until we know each other better, I want you to know me and
understand me, and know I'm not some playboy."
This is the FAQ from a NG called alt.polyamory. It may help you understand the
mindset necessary to have multiple relationships. Most people on this NG do,
but beware some are very sensitive and self-righteous.
ALT.POLYAMORY FAQ
Table of Contents:
1). What's alt.polyamory?
2). What's polyamory, then?
3). But isn't that "cheating"?
4). Primaries, secondaries, vees and triads: polyjargon and polygeometry
5). What about jealousy?
6). Are there rules for being polyamorous?
7). How do you decide who sleeps where when?
8). Why do some posts talk about Hot Bi Babes? (and where can I
get one?)
9). Are all polyfolk bisexual?
10). Do polyamorous relationships last?
11). How can I tell if I am polyamorous?
12). What about living together and commitment and marriage and
all that?
13). What will the children think?
14). How does a person start (or continue) a poly relationship?
15). How do I explain this to people?
16). Is there a secret alt.poly handshake?
Subject: 1). What's alt.polyamory?
Alt.polyamory is a USENET newsgroup more or less full of people
interested in talking about polyamory and related topics.
Alt.polyamory was founded by Jennifer Wesp on May 29, 1992.
Subject: 2). What's polyamory, then?
(Glad you asked that. ;) ) Polyamory means "loving more than
one". This love may be sexual, emotional, spiritual, or any
combination thereof, according to the desires and agreements of
the individuals involved, but you needn't wear yourself out
trying to figure out ways to fit fondness for apple pie, or
filial piety, or a passion for the Saint Paul Saints baseball
club into it. "Polyamorous" is also used as a descriptive term by
people who are open to more than one relationship even if they
are not currently involved in more than one. (Heck, some are
involved in less than one.) Some people think the definition is
a bit loose, but it's got to be fairly roomy to fit the wide
range of poly arrangements out there.
Subject: 3). But isn't that "cheating"?
Nope.
Oh, you wanted a longer answer. Okay. According to the OED,
cheating means "fraud, deceit, swindling." There's a nice quote
from 1532: "The first...ground of Chetinge is...a studdy to seme
to be, and not to be in deede." In other words, cheating is to
convey through deliberate action the impression that one is of a
particular nature while one is, in fact, something quite
different. What this boils down to with polyamory is that
polyamorous people do not tell partners, lovers, or prospective
members of those groups that they are monogamous when in fact
they are not nor do they allow these people to assume they are
monogamous, regardless of how convenient or personally
advantageous such assumptions might be. The words "honest",
"negotiate", "communication" and "being out" occur frequently in
discussions of how polyamory usually works.
As Stef puts it:
"I think the key in defining polyamory is *openness*, that is,
having multiple relationships with the knowledge and consent of
your partner(s) rather than by deceit. (How much openness, how
many details are shared, of course varies widely.) A great many
people have secret affairs while they're in a supposedly
monogamous relationship. I think those people might have the
potential to be polyamorous, but I do not think they are
practicing polyamory. Another key in defining polyamory, IMO, is
that it need not involve sex (although it often does)."
Generally speaking, if someone openly practices "more than one
love" and calls themself polyamorous, they probably are; if they
practice "more than one love" and call themself monogamous, do
not adjust your television: the problem is *not* in your
receiver.
Subject: 4). Primaries, secondaries, vees and triads: polyjargon and
polygeometry
Since there are lots of different ways to organize (or not
organize, if one is blessed by the Goddess of Chaos, or has a
taste for happy anarchy, or is a principled egalitarian)
relationships, it follows that there are ways of describing these
various arrangements. This polyjargon has evolved in the
newsgroup over time, and the words are merely descriptives. No
approval or disapproval of any particular arrangement is to be
expressed or implied.
Primary word often used in a hierarchal multiperson
relationship to denote the person with whom one is most strongly
bonded. In some cases this bond or commitment takes the form of
legal marriage. As bigamy is not legal, the option of having two
(or more) legally wedded primaries simultaneously is not
currently practicable, though nonlegal ceremonies may certainly
be performed. In some cases "primary" refers to the lover with
the most seniority.
Secondary follows from primary, in a hierarchal relationship,
denotes a person with whom one is involved without the emotional,
legal, or economic complexities and commitments of primary
bonding.
Yes, some people talk about tertiaries and so on. Some people
also don't like the terms primaries and secondaries or the
concepts behind the terms, preferring to have "a circle of
equals" as one poly person called it. Stef contributed the term
"Nonhierarchical Polyamory" for this kind of arrangement.
Triads three people involved in some way. Often used in a
fairly committed sense, in some cases involving ceremonies of
commitment, but also used simply to mean "three people who are
connected". Example: "Jodine, Mischa and Mickey are a FMM triad
living in Excelsior."
Vee Three people, where the structure puts one person at the
bottom, or "hinge" of the vee, also called the pivot point. In a
vee, the arm partners are not as commonly close to each other as
each is to the pivot.
Triangle (or equilateral triangle) relationship where three
people are each involved with both of the others. Sometimes also
called a triad.
Line Marriage term from the works of Robert A. Heinlein,
science fiction writer, meaning a marriage that from time to time
adds younger members, eventually establishing an equilibrium
population (spouses dying off at the same rate as new ones are
added). This is a different form of familial immortality than
the traditional one of successive generations of children.
(Definition courtesy of M. Schafer, and yes, there are people who
are in situations like this who use the term to describe their
family.)
Polyfidelity: Relationship involving more than two people who
have made a commitment to keep the sexual activity within the
group and not have outside partners. (Rumor has it that this
term was coined by the group Kerista.)
Quads, pentacles, sextets and more: There are polyfolk who exist
in multiple arrangements with more than three members. Geometry
can get complicated, and creative nomenclature abounds. As in
every other aspect of polyamory, the precise bonds of intimacy
vary from group to group and from member to member within groups.
Subject: 5). What about jealousy?
Some people seem to have no jealousy; it's as if they didn't get
that piece installed at the factory. Others, including some
longterm polyamorists, feel jealousy, which they regard as a
signal that something needs investigation and care, much as they
would regard depression or pain. Jealousy is neither a proof of
love (and this is where polyamory differs from possessive or
insecure monogamy) nor a moral failing (and this is where
polyamory differs from emotionally manipulating one's partner(s)
into relationships for which they are not ready).
Subject: 6). Are there rules for being polyamorous?
Nobody has a trademark on How It's Done, if that's what you mean.
The best anyone can do is tell how it works for them, and as with
most other things, YMMV. (That means "Your Mileage May Vary.")
Some people have "rules of thumb".
Elf and Omaha:
"I will play safe.
I will come home."
Joe and Kat:
"Your needs come first.
We'll talk about everything.
What they said."
Elise:
"Since a certain 'learning experience' I have felt strongly
that I should never allow my relationship with a new person
to be a tool used to avoid dealing with a 'broken' other
relationship. In fact, one of the things I am most careful
about is 'emotional spillover'; I have a policy of not
spending intense time with otherloves when there is something
out of balance with one love. Naturally this tends to speed
up the opening of negotiations about the difficulty. ;) I
think it's unfair to my loves to use the time I spend with
them as a palliative when there's trouble elsewhere; it keeps
me from doing the work I need to do, the work I agreed to do
when I took on the reality of the relationship."
If you want rules of thumb, you get to make them up yourself. No
warranty expressed or implied, and keep checking the instrument
panel throughout your flight.
Subject: 7). How do you decide who sleeps where when?
This is the most often asked question in panel discussions of
polyamory, making some polyfolk wonder why sex is more
interesting than the emotional and other intimacies of
polyamorous life. The answer is that the people involved decide,
and they decide *how* they decide, too. Some people have
conferences and divide up the week, some people all pile happily
into one big bed, and for all I know some people spin a big wheel
with blinking lights on it each evening....and some people can
love one another, have no sex, and choose to live in separate
homes if that is most comfortable for them. The answer usually
evolves out of discussion, empathy and practice, which makes it a
lot like good lovemaking.
As jack says:
"The thing to remember is that the sexuality of a relationship is
not the most important aspect of it. The best thing I can do for
either of my partners is meet them at the door with a buttered
biscuit and a smile."
Subject: 8). Why do some posts talk about Hot Bi Babes?
It's a newsgroup joke referring to the occasional post from
someone, almost always identifying himself as a straight male,
who is seeking "hot" (i.e. sexually arousing) bisexual female
partners to save him from the monotonies of the back rack at his
local video rental shop. The term Hot Bi Babe is almost always
used sarcastically, occasionally by those of us who really are
hot bi babes, to lampoon those who regard our sexual preferences
as a spectator sport. (Our crankiness has more to do with the
frequency and ineptitude of clueless approaches than it does with
the acceptability of fantasies or anything like that.)
(and where can I get some?)
Posting personal ads to alt.flame is usually a good strategy;
alt.dev.null is another good bet. Best of luck, and keep those
cards and letters.
Subject: 9). Are all polyfolk bisexual?
No. There are many polyamorous people who are also bisexual, and
many who are monosexual (i.e. relating only to one gender as
potential or actual sexual/romantic partners; straight or
gay/lesbian). There are also lots of folks who don't do sexual
preference/orientation labels at all. One doesn't always know
until one asks, as with so many other things. Avoiding
assumptions is usually worth the exercise.
Subject: 10). Do polyamorous relationships last?
Some do, some don't, just like any other kind of relationships.
Some folks on the newsgroup have been together for many years;
some own houses and have children together. Being polyamorous is
no guarantee that relationships will be easier, though there can
be advantages to shared joys and shared sorrows, as the old
saying goes.
Subject: 11). How can I tell if I am polyamorous?
I'm not sure; only you will know, and according to the philosophy
of some folks, people aren't polyamorous, although behavior can
be. Some people find that approach useful, and others prefer to
think of "polyamorous people".
Some polyfolk tend to recognize themselves in the descriptions,
and can only be restrained with difficulty from jumping up and
down and screeching, "See! See! I *knew* it wasn't just me!
Hooray!" If you aren't sure you're poly, the best practice is
probably to act kindly and responsibly, and to communicate
clearly to the best of your ability as you learn; come to think
of it, that's the best practice for polyfolk, too, so you'll be
one of the crowd anyhow. Besides, being polyamorous is not
inherently "better" than being monogamous, so there's no need to
feel like you have to pledge allegiance or anything like that
just to hang out and look at the questions.
Another thing to consider is that the word "polyamorous" is, like
all labels, just a tool. What you do and how you treat the
people you love is probably more important to them, in the long
run, than whether you fit a particular descriptive term, so don't
sweat it, okay? And take good care of each other.
An alternate point of view:
"There aren't polyamorous and monogamous people; there are
polyamorous and monogamous relationships. The same person may
at various times be happy in both monogamous and polyamorous
relationships at various times in his/her life. What is right
depends on you and your feelings, and the feelings of those
you are involved in relationships with. You may at some times
be involved in a relationship that is monogamous, and that
may be the right thing for the people in that relationship;
at other times, you may be in a relationship which works
better as part of a polyamorous network of relationships. In
any case, the important thing is probably to act kindly and
responsibly, and to communicate clearly with intimate
partners and potential partners about these issues. Don't
deny your feelings or the feelings of those that you care
about. Get in touch with how you and those you care about
really feel, rather than how society wants you to feel, or
how you think it would be logical to feel, or how you've been
told polyamorous people (or monogamous people) should
feel. Then behave in ways which are honest, and which make
you, and the people you care about, and the people they care
about, happy and fulfilled. If this results in you having
more than one intimate relationship at the same time, or
being involved in a relationship with more than two people,
those who are big on categorizing and labeling people will
label you a 'poly person'."
Subject: 12). What about living together and commitment and marriage
and all that?
Good question. Ask it; there are many many approaches among the
people on the newsgroup. From cohousing to communal living to
group marriage to thingsundreamed, there are a multitude of
ways. Design a new one and see how it works. Unlearn assumptions
about an old arrangement. Ask questions, and practice empathy.
Most of all, polyamory seems to be about building new
configurations of relationships rather than trading people in and
out like baseball cards. As amanda r. clark says:
"Poly is being open to the opportunity if it comes along, not
refusing commitments because something better might come
loping down the path."
Subject: 13). What will the children think?
As Martin Schafer says:
"If you don't think you are doing anything wrong, and can
honestly explain that, they'll probably think it's pretty
neat. For some of us having more people involved in child
rearing is a big practical benefit of our lifestyle. The
details of how this works is a fertile topic for discussion,
both here and among the individuals involved."
Subject: 14). How does a person start (or continue) a poly
relationship?
First, there are no rules. Nobody owns the copyright on
polyamory. You get to build your own to fit you and your
dearloves.
One thing that comes up in every conversation about polyamory is
communication. If there is any basic building block, this is
probably it. If you can talk about your hopes, you're on the way
to realizing them.
If you're in a relationship already, and have not talked about
how you feel and what you want, and you're asking the question
"How do I start doing this poly stuff?", you may have some qualms
about talking to your partner. What you do will have to be
determined by your own ethics and your own situation; chances are
that if you ask on the newsgroup, many polyfolk will suggest you
talk it over with your partner, and they may point out that even
if you two do not decide to live polyamorously, you may very well
increase the intimacy level in your monogamous dyad by having the
discussion.
On the other hand, it may all go blooey, and this is why people
hesitate. On the third hand, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
On the fourth hand, it might be useful to increase the intimacy
level in the existing relationship and address any outstanding
difficult issues there *before* having this particular
discussion. Four more hands and you've got a nice statue of Kwan
Yin there, and seeing as how she's the Goddess of Mercy, she
might come in handy at a time like this.
Joe Avins feels that it's not a good idea to try to force a
relationship into an attractive model; he favors the "relax, be
open, and see what happens" approach, and quotes Pete Seeger:
"Take it easy, but take it."
If you're already in more than one relationship and haven't
disclosed this yet, you will find people on the newsgroup who
have experienced similar things from all three sides and are
willing to discuss their perceptions and the actions they took.
Subject: 15). How do I explain this to people?
David Rostcheck says:
"You don't have to explain yourself at all, or answer to
anyone. You're happy. Your feelings require no
justification. It's a mistake to try to reconcile what you
feel with a social classification, because the classification
may not really suit you. You start with your feelings,
understand them and be comfortable with them. You, your
feeling, and the people you care about are the important
things. You're getting in this unnatural, inverted position
of trying to explain yourself. You don't have to explain
yourself to the world. You just are, and your relationship
just is. If other people want to understand it, then you try
to explain to them in basic terms what you feel, and that
you're happy.
"Here's how I'd deal with some specific questions:
":Are you seeing my daughter or this other girl?
I'm seeing them both.
":So you're cheating on her?
No. They both know; we're all friends and we're happy that
way.
":Well, which do you love?
I love them both.
":Which do you love more?
I don't understand the question. They're different
people. How do you measure?
":Why don't you commit to one of them?
Why can't I commit to both of them?
"See? You don't have to bend over backwards to express
yourself in their terms. They may have to learn your terms to
understand you. You're not the one who doesn't understand;
they have to put in the work to comprehend you. Remember, the
bunch of you have something that comes naturally and feels
right for you; whether or not other people get it is a
secondary issue. As long as you do what you want you'll be
happy.
"Does that help any?"
Subject: 16). Is there a secret alt.poly handshake?
Not that I know of. ;) There are several proposed symbols, of
which the most common seems to be the parrot. As parrot pins and
other ornaments are relatively easy to find, this symbol seems
likely to catch on over the others. It also has the advantage of
being humorous, which is a needed quality in such a staid,
conservative group as alt.poly. (Joke, folks! Set irony filters
on stun.)
End of alt.polyamory FAQ
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