Hey Guys,

first of all, I would like to introduce myself to this forum. I am
Jerry, recently moved to New York and I am having the time of my life
here in this awesome city. Many thanks to Mystery, Mrsex4unyc, Tony,
Maniac_High and David Shade who truly helped me in recuperating from my
AFC syndrom :-).

Alright guys, here is the question: I went to a strip club the other
day and one of the stripper, a Latina and perfect 10, genuinely seemed
interested in getting to know me better. The funny thing was actually
that she started tonguing me down while performing a lapdance for me. I
have to admit that she was tipsy during that night, fair enough, but I
still thought she would be interested in seeing me again. And so she
was cause she asked me to stop by at the club the next day and sure
enough I could give her my business card. That all happened last
Thursday and Friday. Now today I got a call from her that she is not
working this week and would like to meet up. Now I am far from shitting
into my pants because of her mere beauty but I was still contemplating
as to whether or not there is a special way of laying strippers as
opposed to the "normal" HB's. I mean she is loaded with money so I
don't intend to spend any penny on her. Dinner would be supplication,
so I guess my best bet would be to get wasted with her somewhere in a
cosy bar (of course sitting next to her to get some kino going).

I am supposed to give her a call tomorrow - any help out there?

Cheers,

Jerry

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

YEAH, be prepared that you MAY be mentally masterbating here.

Dont think DATE.  Reframe to GET TOGETHER.  She knows the score.  Dont
invite her OUT, but rather invite her IN.  AND ... she is NOT loaded.  Most
strippers are in debt.  They cant spend money in regular ways - they buy
spontaneously - things like clothes and shoes.

the master

news:8mo4m9$a7t$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

sorry
the focus here shouldn't be on any one particular woman.
Receiving advise would just drive you further into being caught
up in the situation and keep drilling holes into you that fill up
with afc-liquid.
discuss more general topics, obersavations and
experiences here.
for your own good...

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WHY?  Why do you think she was interested (I`m not denying it,
but try to understand what motivates her?)  Was it physical,
personality (quiet, aggressive, funny), financial (are you
loaded w/ signs of showing it)?  I would try to figure out what
interested her in you & play this up in follow-on encounters.  I
currently am doing 2 strippers in Tokyo (one met at club, one
met outside of club) & they ARE real people, believe it or not
(although they do tend to be ditsy, bad w/ schedules, & you have
to prepared to seem them w/ other guys professionally @ a
minimum).  I would hazard to guess she liked you cuz you a)
didn`t drool over her; b) probably seemed like a normal, regular
guy who she may not have much contact w/, etc...  BTW, I`ve also
had off-line chances w/ strips in Boston & SF but I never worked
it to a fuck close...

And so she

Bad move.  IT`s AFC to give out biz cards.  A simple phone #
(preferably not office) should suffice.

hat all happened last

Don`t shit in your pants.  If she likes you for whatever reason,
she likes you & you`ve cleared the first hurdle.  From now on,
the ball`s in your court...

Special way of laying strippers, hmmm..  I think you treat them
like normal people, perhaps even be extra tender physically.
They see so many drunk, macho, bravado BS guys at work that they
probably want a sensitive guy to some degree;  gentle caressing
(not groping), good foreplay, etc.  Now, I would agree there`s
probably a Springer-class type abused chick who works in the
scene, who`s perpetually involved w/ Alpha, abusive, fucked-up
macho guys.  But if HB Latina has expressed an interest in you
(I assume a normal guy w/ AFC tendencies), then she`s probably
at least open to getting away from that bullshit.

I mean she is loaded with money so I

I agree & disagree w/ the other poster.  Yes, she probably ain`t
loaded. But she should have enough spare change jingling around
that she should pull some of her weight in the date (my strip,
HB Cat Eyes, bought me dinner at a family-style restaurant 2
outings ago...)

 Dinner would be supplication,

Bar?...  Perhaps.  Maybe work it in w/ a bit more romantic
scene.  Again, this goes back to what interests her about you.
Perhaps a bar would work, but maybe not if she thinks of you as
a reg guy who likes opera, plays, etc.. Dunno, ELICIT VALUES,
Jerry!

Keep it brief.  Strips tend to be ditzy & can`t process an array
of information at once (she may be sleepy/drunk/hungover also).
Make a simple appointment conventient to both of you, & let it
go from there.  Save the heavy interaction for in person...

Best of Luck in the Big APple,
Kipp

.

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In article <8mo4m9$a7...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

It seems so.  Search Formhandle's site or Deja for posts on strippers
by Mystery or Craig.  Some notables:

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=1...

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=1...

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=1...

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=1...

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

thanks everybody for your help!

some strange things are happening here with HB Latina, she does not want
to meet up for drinks but instead wants to have lunch with me. on top of
that she asked me (all in a 5 minute phone conversation) whether i have
a girlfriend (which i declined) and said that on my next vacation i
should go with her to peru. how weird is that?

we'll see, i keep you posted.

cheers,

jerry

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

strippers can have anyone.  that is why once they decide they want you they
dont think about games and instead just BAM! go for your throat.  this is
typical of all strippers and 10s.  she doesnt want to DATE (do the drinks
thing) and instead wants to HANG with you.  dont make steps backwards.
invite her over to the house NOW.

news:8msmvi$ejo$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

hey master,
you might be right and i am totally fucking this up.
this stripper is really weird though, but then again i can't speak from
experience. here is the story:

yesterday she wanted to meet for lunch and since it was getting close to
noon, i called her with her not answering. then i left a message on the
cell phone. at 2.30pm or so she calls and said she just got up. fair
enough so i say let's meet tomorrow and i give you another call. then
she calls me AGAIN! and asks me for my cell phone number and home phone
(she only had my business phone number) cause she might call me today
(and i thought we were gonna meet the next day). then she asks me where
my company is located and on what floor i work on, i say why, she says
cause i want to visit you!!! holy shit i think and say no, i don't want
that. guess what happens then? she hangs up on me!

such a strange chick... so i call her again, she says call me back later
and i say it was not the right time to talk since i was standing next to
an managing director. she says finish your work and then call me...

so i come home at 7, take a nap cause i thought we might go out/meet and
call her at 8.30pm on her cell phone. i get cut off (i think) and call
her again, we just chat a little bit, she giggles and then i get cut off
again but this time i think she just hung up on me. so i call again,
leave her a message on her cell phone with my cell phone and home phone
number in case she wants to get back to me and does not have the numbers
with her.

nothing happens until 10pm (and i just left this one message on her
cell). then at 10 she calls my home phone number and asks me WHERE ARE
YOU!!! so i say well, you called my home phone number so i guess i am
HOME, (dummy - or maybe on drugs?) then i say what happened during our
last phone call, she doesn't reply to that.
then she says "i want to see you" so i kid around saying it's not lunch
time, so it's not such a good idea to get together is it, cause that's
what she said herself two days ago. so she says alright, too bad for
you, let's do lunch then. i reply i was just kidding, we can meet if you
want, what do you want to do? she says i want to see you. so i said,
well, you live on the westside, right, so since i live on the east side,
do you want to meet half way? she says no - and HANGS UP!!!

end of story. i did not bother calling her back.

(maybe that was an implicit invitation to come over to her place
though and i just didnt get it or was too fucking nice since i said
let's meet up outside).

i think she might have been on drugs or she is a psycho. now at least
she admitted that she wants to see me, which is good, so now i think i
will not call her today since i have called her too many times already
and will just wait what happens. maybe i call her tomorrow but i am
getting a little bit fed up with that. but then again, someone who looks
like carmen electra might be worth a little hassle...

that was all yesterday btw and we did not meet for lunch today since she
didnt call.

one more question: couldnt she turn into a returning fox now that i am
not calling her anymore?

hopefully i havent fucked it up...

thanks for your advice!

jerry

In article <rDAk5.49739$07.1538...@news1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com>,
  "the_master" <idonthin...@NOPE.com> wrote:

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

HI Jerry

Great Question!!

I'd like to know how some of the PUAs here do pickup the
strippers.
I think THAT IS THE TOUGHEST PICKUP!

I mean you are at a place where they are showing you their
pussies and tits in your face.
It's very difficult to hide your intentions!  LOL
When a woman puts her pussy in your face, and then you want to
get together with her, it's HARD TO HIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO to
her!! hahahaha

Furthermore, all the other guys in the room (most of them
anyway) want to fuck the strippers too!
I guess everynight, the joint is filled with guys who want to
fuck them.

This is what makes this a tough pickup.
I once managed to get a strippers phone number, but she was
moving back to Texas the next week.  She gave me her TX number.
LOL!
And since I live in CA, it didn't do me much good.

If anyone here has gotten phone numbers from strippers in THE
CLUB, and they were actually right numbers, tell us how you did
it.
What process did you use to get that ELLUSIVE PHONE NUMBER?

Thanks
Cal

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Yeah? And how about an engaged chick? How about a threesome with an engaged
chick who's a virgin and her future sister in law who's a man-hating
lesbian? ;-)

And here's what NYC once wrote about strippers:

"I will never fuck and have never fucked porno bitches, stripping bitches,
ANY KIND OF SEX INDUSTRY BITCHES because they do that shit for a living.
MORE chance for disease... MORE exposure to guys that are willing to pay
them to lick the guy's asshole... then YOU want to MAKE OUT with these
bitches? There's no telling what they were doing in the back room before YOU
got them to go home with you... whether you pay them to fuck or not.  Yes,
it's true that regular chicks are just as nasty sometimes... but shit!  you
see these bitches ON STAGE shaking their asses because they have no other
means of making money... what do you think they're going to do when a guy
says he wants to piss in their mouths for $1,000... when they are collecting
money $1 at a time from suckers that frequent strip clubs?  THAT BITCH IS
GETTING PISSED ON AND YOU WANT TO MAKE OUT WITH HER LATER?"

Ugh! Enough to put me off for good.

rgds

To all PUA and all readers of the HB Latina  Stripper Update

Hey Guys,

Here is my latest update of my events with HB Stripper Latina.
(I couldn’t help but calling her the next day despite she hung up on me
(see last Report) though looking back I think it was a good decision
since the ball was back in her territory.
Anyway, so she called me surprisingly Friday night where I was at a
Penthouse party in a hotel. She told me she wants to see me again and
would like to have dinner with me and then do something else, i.e. go
to some other place. I told her, sorry, you gotta have dinner by
yourself since I am at a BBQ right now, but I will call her when I get
home. And so I did and called her at 9.30pm. I suggested going to a bar
in Midtown/New York and she pretended she had no fucking clue where to
meet up so I switched back into being AFC again and told her I would
pick her up. Now in the bar something interesting happened. First of
all she wanted me to pay for all the drinks and I just innocently
said “I thought we are taking turns with the drinks”. She was surprised
but concurred (well, not exactly cause she gave me the money for the
drinks and I still got them – question: is there are difference between
the girl literally buying the drinks or just giving me the money for it
and I buy them? I guess I need some education on this part)

So the beginning of the evening went very well and she started
revealing more about her personality, such as that her real name is not
…. but …. and that she is not 21 but 24 (I really have no idea as to
why she would hide her age). Moreover she told me that she doesn’t like
the other strippers, that she has totally different values than they do
and that is why she doesn’t hang out with them who are only into money,
alcohol,  cars and drugs….She, on the other hand, had true values
instilled by her parents and wants to keep them like that. She also
told me the story about her ex-fiancee who took away all her belongings
in Miami (Hb Latina told me she worked as a TV host for a Spanish TV
program in Miami for two years), which is why she had to come to New
York City to make up for the lost money by working in a strip joint.

Anyway, so after a couple of hours at around 2am we went to a club but
the guestlist just closed about 20 minutes before we got in. That was
too bad and totally unexpected from my side, since I had to face paying
$40 fucking bucks cover for the remaining 2hours in this club. I know
that paying for my and her cover was a AFC move bigtime but I didn’t
think about that and did it anyway (I know, I know – big mistake, feel
free to rip me apart for this one). But I did tell her though after
having paid the cover that I am close to being broke now and I really
was (the whole evening was about $90). So she offered paying for the
next round of drinks, which unfortunately still was not enough for her.
And she was getting increasingly drunk. Now one minute after I left HB
Latina in order to get the drinks for us at the club, an Italian guy
approached her and tried to pick her up. She told him that she is here
with me and he just did not fucking care (Question: What the hell am I
supposed to do when I am out with a really Hot Babe, I mean she is a
real 10 and every other minute someone else tries to pick her up????)
HB Latina told me that the Italian guy just told her I should be so
lucky to be with her and I replied and so should you that you are here
with me. After that we went dancing and the Italian was so bold that he
even tried to dance with her when I was dancing with HB Latina (any
advice on this one, I mean what the fuck am I supposed to do when I am
dancing with a HB and someone else tries to interfere? As for me
(though maybe that’s just me being too much of a nice guy) I would have
too much pride and just wouldn’t even think of doing this. But he
didn’t give a shit and still was dancing with her. HB Latina liked the
attention from both sides but was still showing me physically that she
was more interested in me). After a while, I got fed up with this and
just left in order to look for some friends who were also supposed to
be at the club (they wanted to see her, too).  So she comes running
after me telling me “I wanna be with you!” but still didn’t mind at all
that the Italian guy was constantly harassing her. So after a while
even the bouncers told me if he approaches her again, he’s gonna get
chucked out.
Right before the club closes, HB Latina wants to have another Martini
(the 5th or so). So I tell her that I am pretty much broke and she has
to chip in if she wants to have another one. So she does and I get
another Martini for her while she keeps on talking to the Italian guy.
When I came back with her Martinis, I lost it a little bit and told him
and told him to get lost and mind his own business. By that time, HB
Latina is already pretty wasted. So it turns 4am and the club closes.
We go outside and she tries to pick a fight with me and I tell her that
I am not used to sharing women with anyone and just won’t tolerate that
(which was also the main reason why I left every time the Italian guy
wanted to pick her up). She gets a little bit angry but eventually
hails a cab and tells me to join her. So I get in the cab with her and
we start making out and fumbling a little bit. Then the disaster of the
evening comes: Since I paid the whole $40 for the club cover I just had
no more money on me. So we get out of the cab at her place and she
supposedly expects me to pay though I did not have any more money. So I
tell her that I have no more dollars left and that we either have to
drive now to the next ATM or she chips in. The fare was $7 and she just
repeatedly says she can’t believe I have no more money, then she gives
me $5, I give it to the cab driver and she CLOSES THE DOOR TO HER
APARTMENT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!!!!!
Another guy was watching this scenario and offered me to call her on
his cell phone. So I call her and after me trying to explain the
situation to her she hangs up on me.
So I get another $20 at the nearest ATM and call her again but she
doesn’t pick up the phone and I leave a message on her voice mail
saying something like how great this evening was and that it is so
stupid to ruin it that way, I know she likes me (she actually told me a
couple of times “I like you a lot!” and “You know I like you” and I
like her so why don’t we just get over it and maybe she can even go
downstairs again to talk about it again. She doesn’t answer though so I
leave for home and am now writing this follow –up post.

Now I have no ideas what my next step would have to be, gut wise I
would say I don’t call her anymore until she calls me and if she
doesn’t then whatever, though I know now from tonight’s conversation
that she is flying to Miami on Monday to get a visa for Italy, then she
will be modeling in Milano the whole August and then wants to see her
parents in Peru before she gets back to working at the Strip club in
September. So I have the feeling if I don’t reconcile this before she
flies to Miami that this will be it  since I won’t see her for a long
time.

Now, all your PUA’s out there I need your help!!!

What the hell I am supposed to do now? Since she was pretty drunk, I
would say I should just call her again tomorrow and maybe the whole
thing won’t be a problem anymore. Though on the other hand, I am pissed
off with her behavior and feel like telling her, that if she wants to
play the free drinking game, she better get herself a millionaire which
I am, on top of that she earns so much more money than I do so I really
don’t want to waste any money on her…..

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

she wants you.  start taking MAJOR control.  she is yours.  dont fuck it up.
envite her to your place to share a bath.  serious. post report

news:8mvb8h$cvc$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

a RETURNING FOX?  drop the RAY shit from your lexicon FAST dude

news:8mvb8h$cvc$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

lameass.  thats throwing the baby out with the bathwater dude

news:966070239.581370@proxy0.bits.net...

call.

Good move.  I`ve learned to move my appointments w/ strippers
(e.g., HB Cat Eyes) later cuz they tend to sleep late after
getting home real late.  She probably was telling you the truth,
& earlier had been trying to overaccomodate you;  I agree
generally w/ Master that apart fromt the issues of whether this
chick has a full deck of cards, she still is fuckable from what
you`ve been describing (i.e., she wants you & should you manage
to meet up w/ her should be able to fuck her same day).   Also,
do you know her schedule (assuming it`s regular) in terms of
days off, etc).

then

Again, DON`T give out biz cards, Jerry!

holy shit i think and say no, i don't want

I too have had a lot of phone tag experience w/ strippers.  I
think they are ditzy, don`t have good social skills on
communication protocol, and probably to some extent are playing
a mind game to see how badly you want them.

Don`t rehash negatives (I know you`re pissed, but venting over
shit that went down but didn`t work will not constructively move
the conversation forward & improve your chances of a lay).

Good, try to keep the kidding/lightness/playfulness factor high!

so she says alright, too bad for

I can see her point.  While my view is contrary to the
supplication literature, I don`t see the problem of accomodating
her a little in the beginning w/ location.   Maybe she doesn`t
have transportation, etc.  In my view, it`s AFTER the 1st
meeting where you establish contact/control/desirability/puppy
eyes adoration that you start laying down ground rules.

Yes, the-master is RIGHT. If you had managed to hook up w/ her
that night - perhaps thru a little accomodation - you would have
had a great fuck.

Good, let things cool down a bit.  Remember, in putting up w/
the psycho shit, you are not looking to take this girl home to
the folks. If you are recovering AFC, I would advise continuing
this mission cuz if you do lay her, it will add to your
confidence.  If you don`t, well, you already know she has
airhead tendencies, etc...  But don`t wait too long; you haven`t
sealed the deal yet...

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Chicks with borefriends or party chicks or pro sex chicks... like she sucks
some guy's dick, pops two tic-tacs and then goes to mr.PUA and gives him a
tongue down.

That may have never happened to you (would you know?), but when I see hot
chicks getting drunk and laughing and going to back rooms with a bunch of
these wolf-looking dudes, I can't help but think that's exactly what
happens.

rgds

Yeah, there`s so much of the virgin shit fantasy on this NG,
like (w/ all due respect) Maniac`s HB Ass who was a librarian
type (from the classifieds, if memory serves me) turned into a
sex fiend who obeys Maniac`s directions & also fucks tons of
other guys now, if I understand from his posts.   I mean, what`s
the diff at some point whether a chick is taking down 5 dicks
for $$$ or 5 dicks cuz BF PUA or SM Master is telling her to, or
has inspired that interest?   I guess the latter image always
maintains some `virgin prissiness` quality that is appealing to
most guys (like why does Max Hardcore`s Cherry Poppers sick-ass
porn shit sell so well in the US?).  But I submit the former sex
worker type may actually have a better sense of control in terms
of using her sexuality to get something in return for her goods,
rather than flipping Taco`s for $8/hr or whatever the going rate
is these days...

Yes, there may be some issues w/ diseases, etc. to be careful
about.  But if you`re going to be skeptical of the sex worker
crowd, then in this day & age why not demand every potential lay
to run through their sexual history & detailed health check b4
initiating any physical activity.  W/ regards to safer sexual
practices,  I think a pro who is comfortable w/ herself may
actually, in some respect, have MORE limits (common sense &
health awareness) than the good choir virgin types corrupted
bad, who may end up in a compound like Waco or something.   I
mean, those are the chicks more willing to be open to the power
of suggestion to knock back BF`s golden shower, cash
considerations aside.   Very difficult to stereotype,
particularly across cultures where once you get outside of the
puritanical US, a sex industry (incl. the UK) scene may actually
be more mainstream w/ the implications that more `mainstream`
type of girls may be involved to a greater extent.

My attitude is each woman is different, and I try to enjoy my
time/interactions with each whether they come from a sex
industry background or not (disclosure:  I just spent a great
overnight last night w/ HB Cat Eyes, a stripper, but I mean it
was totally cool being around a chick who has a tight, lithe
body, is comfortable with it, and looks damn good cavorting
around the hotel room in T-back lace panties.  Does she do this
professionally & maybe for other guys as well....Yes &
probably.  But at some point I DON`T FUCKING CARE cuz I have my
own issues to deal w/ & I`m looking for a quality night together
where we both get off on each other and don`t check cell phones
10x a night like so many `good girls` from the burbs do...)

Sound like you should be more wolf-looking yourself, Thx.
They`re the ones getting the pussy, for $$$ or not...

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On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 05:22:00 -0700, kipp

The U.S. has a porn industry which makes more money than Hollywood
whereas hardcore porn here is either illegal or on the edge of
legality. The U.S. has thousands of strip bars where they are a
comparative rarity in the U.K.

So just how is the sex industry mainstream in the UK?

Not a flame, just curious as to your reasoning.

You misunderstood me. I don't care what some chick did last week or last
month or last year. I'm only concerned with whether she sucked some guy's
dick after the last time she brushed her teeth. ;-)

If I want her as a girlfriend (and I usually do - I don't go for ONS), then
I ask around just to make sure she's not a psycho and while she's with me,
checking on her (where she is, what she's doing) is of course standard
procedure. Granted, she may STILL find time to do some crazy shit, but the
odds are greatly reduced when she doesn't go out to clubs or parties by
herself and is always with someone who knows both of us.

And when she comes to my place for sex, if I even suspect she's not minty
fresh and clean, I send her to the shower just in case. Maybe I'm turning
into a Howard Hughes sort of guy, huh? ;-)

I've never fucked a girl without a condom. Did I miss much? Am I still
technically a virgin? ;-)

I'm not an AFC... never was when I think about it. I always knew what to do,
only I wasn't good enough. Now you could say I'm doing pretty good
considering the rather small number of chicks I meet in the first place.

As for the wolf-looking dudes, they merely looked hungry and were howling
half the time. ;-)

rgds

They used to do this in Germany.

Peanut
Take out the trash to email me

HI Guys

Interesting exchanges!
However, I AM STILL Looking for TIPS on how do pickup strippers,
because it is soooo damn hard!
It's probably the hardest pickup as I Said in my earlier post on
this topic.

Kipp, if you have ideas, I am willing to entertain them :))

Cal

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THIS GUY WROTE:

AND:

SOME THINGS I JUST DON'T GET

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What I was referring to in the UK was the legality of
prostitution. I read an FT article about `hos posting their
cards on public telephone booths & the like;  kids have taken to
collecting these in favor of Pokemon cards.  This has,
understandably, created a social outcry (I myself, while I
indulge in porn & am fairly liberal about sexuality, do concur
there should be limits particularly wrt minors).   BTW, Japan
has the same issues w/ tons of xxx-rated adverts posted around
town.

As for the US, again Hollywood is voluminous & strip bars - I
guess - are rampant (although last time I was in Boston damned
if I could find one, where there used to be several in the
Combat Zone area).   I guess I`m talking not  only quantity of
the sex outlets, but also quality.  Eg, many paid sex workers in
US ARE ugly, slutty, trailer trash `hos or unfortunate semi-
indentured immigrant women.   In Japan - & to my knowledge in
Europe, but no 1st hand experience in Europe - `average` girl-
next-door types populate sex shops.  And there are literally
THOUSANDS of sex shops across all major station hubs in Tokyo.
Just walk around Shinjuku, & you will see scouts approaching
young chicks w/ biz cards, etc

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What's the problem?

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 02:53:48 -0700, kipp

Street prostitution is illegal, putting cards up cards is illegal,
brothels are illegal, living of immoral earnings (pimping) is illegal.

Well there aren't nearly as many crack whores over here but most
English women are no beauties (paid or otherwise). The rest are
usually from either Eastern Europe (controlled by E.European / Russian
mafias) or Thai (have their passports confiscated and have to work off
a $30,000 "debt" to their pimp who bought them for around $3.000).

As to quality never having paid for sex I really couldn't say.