USS Liberty Slanders (1)
rgol...@bellsouth.net
Most conspiracies hang together by a belabored psycho-social paranoid
analysis. The conspiracy theory that Israel's attack on the USS Liberty in
1967 was "intentional" is a slanderous fabrication.
There are always those who will believe these conspiracy theories because
they want to, because they have prejudices which make them vulnerable to
these false allegations and no amount of logic or denial will ever convince
them otherwise. This essay is not for them.
This lie about Israel being intentionaly culpable for the death of Americans
is nothing less than a continued slander of a whole people.
The U.S. Liberty was on an intelligence gathering mission and James Ennis,
who wrote the book that damned Israel for the attack was also a crypto
officer on the U.S.S. Liberty. That doesn't however, place him in a better
position to know what was _intended_ by the Israelis. That kind of
intelligence was not available electronicly, but only through reconstructing
the events that preceeded the attack. And, members of the crew who were
quoted in Ennis' book had their perceptions reinforced by their position as
players in this tragic drama. Their positions were emotional and
reactionary.
The attack on the USS Liberty was tragic, but the Liberty was mistakenly
identified as an Egyptian supply vessel. The Liberty and the El-Quesir
resembled each other. They had a similar deck line. the bridge structure was
in mid-ship for both of them. A single smokestack was in mid-ship. The
Liberty's antennae on the aft and fore decks resembled El-Quseir's masts.
The antennae on the Liberty's fore deck also resembled a gun.
There are three parts here with sufficient details to refute any false
claims that the attack on the USS Liberty was malicious. The attack was the
unintended result of the heat of battle and a tragic mistake.
There is first of all here, a description of the event as published in "The
Boats of Cherbourg" (pg 68-69) 1988, by Abraham Rabinovich, a senior feature
writer for the Jerusalem Post, and a foreign correspondent. There are then
several other quotes which follow this one. Then there is my evaluation and
following that are several addendums, which include other analysis and some
recent disclosures.
"Unknown to the Israelis, the vessel had sailed into the war zone on June 8,
the fourth day of the war, to monitor battlefield communications. On that
day, naval headquarters in Haifa ordered three torpedo boats to sail from
Ashdod harbor to check reports that El Arish, captured by the army three
days before was being shelled from the sea. The explosions and smoke in El
Arish had in fact been caused by an Egyptian ammunition dump that detonated.
However, as the torpedo boats approached the area, their radar picked up a
target to the west, moving away from El Arish. Presuming it to be an
Egyptian warship, naval headquarters called for an air strike to slow up the
seemingly fleeing vessel."
"Two Mirages were directed to the area, and the lead pilot reported 'seeing
no flag'. The ship had two guns on the forecastle and was clearly not
Israeli. Liberty crewmen would firmly maintain afterward that the American
flag was being flown, but the Mirage pilot's report was taken at navy
headquarters as confirmation that the ship was an Egyptian vessel trying to
reach Port Said. Ordered to attack, the planes set the vessel afire with
strafing runs. The smoke thickened when another plane dispatched to the
scene dropped a napalm bomb on the Liberty's deck."
From an article in The Jerusalem Report (November 1991), by Hirsh Goodman,
"Yes, there was doubt as to the identify of the ship. One of the pilots
identified it as a Russian vessel during the course of the attack, bringing
the cabinet into emergency session. This fear was quickly dispelled. And
yes, there still remains controversy about whether or not there was an
American flag visible at the time of the attack. But while some mystery
remains, the truth is now basically known: The incident was a tragic mistake
marked by serious errors of judgement on both sides, complicated by the fog
and urgency of war and compounded by an almost childish rivalry between the
air force and the navy as to who would grab the prize: sinking what was
genuinely thought to be an Egyptian ship shelling Israeli forces at El Arish
from the sea."
Goodman goes on to write: "Mistakes are not uncommon in war. The day before
the Liberty was attacked, Israeli warplanes bombed and strafed an Israeli
armored column near Jenin in the West Bank. During the Lebanese war, in June
1982, over 20 Israeli servicemen were killed when a Phantom jet pilot
mistakenly identified Israeli tanks as Syrian. In May 1987, in the Gulf, the
USS Stark was accidentally hit by Iraqi warplanes, killing 37 servicemen. An
Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by an over-anxious American
battleship crew in May 1988, killing all 290 passengers on board. So it was
with the Liberty, an American spy ship, that should not have been where it
was, when it was."
Goodman says, "there are many open questions: Why a message from the U.S.
Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS message 072230Z) directing the ship to remain at
least 20 miles off the Egyptian coast was delayed for 14 hours and why, when
it was finally transmitted, it was sent in error to the Naval Communication
Center in the Philippines. Why a second crucial message from the Joint
Chiefs drafted at 2.00 a.m. on the morning of June 8, exactly 12 hours
before the ship was attacked, ordering the Liberty to steam at least 100
miles from the coast was lost as well." He says had the message (080917)
"been received, there would have been no Liberty incident."
James M. Ennes, Jr, was the crypto specialist and Deck Officer of the USS
Liberty wrote an article for Electronics Defense Magazine in 1981. The title
of his article was: " Israeli Attack on U.S. Ship Reveals Failure of C3" in
which he says: The United States made several serious, almost frantic
attempts to move the ship. As the Liberty approached Gaza, the Joint Chiefs
of Staff first sent a priority message ordering the ship to move 20 miles
from the coast; the message was swamped by higher precedence traffic and was
not processed until long after the crisis had ended. Hours later, a JCS.
duty officer phoned naval headquarters in London to relay an urgent JCS
order to move the ship 100 miles from the coast; the telephone call was
ignored, and Liberty's copy of the confirming message was misrouted to the
Philipines before being returned to the Pentagon, where it was again
misrouted, this time to Fort Meade in Maryland, where it was lost." By the
way, I have also been a crypto specialist at JCS (early 60s) and I'm
familiar with their procedures and on the job difficulties - which
occasionally result in errors and mistakes.
In that article he goes on to say, "Eventually, at least six critical
messages were lost, delayed, or otherwise mishandled. Any one of those
messages might have saved Liberty. None reached the ship."
Rabinovich writes: "The son of Admiral Erell, Udi was an ensign aboard one
of the torpedo boats. He could see the smoke from a long distance as the
boats raced at top speed toward the scene. As the vessel came into view,
Erell's skipper scanned an identification book containing pictures of the
ships in the Arab fleets and consulted with the commanders on the other
boats. The squadron commander concluded that the ship was the Egyptian
supply vessel el Quseir. Ensign Erell, looking over his skipper's shoulder
at the picture and glancing up at the burning vessel, fully agreed, even
though he would later recall that the mast in the picture was not positioned
identically with the mast of the target vessel...."
"Nevertheless, the squadron commander sought to confirm the vessel's
identity before attacking. When the Israeli signalman flashed the message
"What ship?" Udi Erell saw the response flickering through the smoke four
miles away---"AAA", the signal meaning "Identify yourself first." The same
signal had been flashed, the Israelis were aware, by the Egyuptian destroyer
challenged off Haifa during the Sinai Campaign in 1956.
Americans on the bridge of the Liberty would later state that the signals
flashed were the ship's name and its international call sign, not what the
Israelis believed they saw. Even with binoculars, Erell could make out *no
flag*. The sqaudron commander ordered his boats to commence torpedo attacks.
The vessels peeled off to make their runs and fired five torpedos. Only one
hit home. The boats raked the burning ship, now dead in the water, with
their guns."
"Fire was halted when one of the officers reported seeing the identification
markings CTR-5 on the ship's hull, markings that were not those of an Arab
vessel. Notified of this, Haifa ordered the sqaudron commander to pick up
survivors and definitely establish the ship's identity......Drawing closer
to the burning vessel, they were able to make out a flag. It was not opened
by a breeze and could not immediately be identified, but it was clearly not
Egyptian...."
"Udi saw a splash of red on the flag and heard a report being sent back to
Haifa that the vessel might be Russian. The report caused shock and
consternation when passed on to General Staff headquarters. The shock was
not abated when the torpedo-spadron commander reported half an hour later
that he had identified the vessel as American."
Mitchell G. Bard and Joel Himelbarb in "Myths and Facts: A Concise Record of
the Arab-Israeli Conflict" write: "None of Israel's accusers has been able
to explain adequately why Israel would have deliberately attacked an
American ship. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in
a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (a message from
the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 20 miles off the
Egyptian coast never arrived) is a more probable explanation." [Unless you
wish to accept one of the conspiracy theories that suggests that Israel
attacked the Liberty because the U.S. was passing strategic intelligence
information to the Arabs. Some actually believe that, but conspiracists will
grab at anything to make their argument seem more credible.]
They write: "Accidents caused by "friendly fire" are not uncommon in
wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger
plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans
who died in battle were killed by "friendly fire." In fact, only the day
before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of
their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank." As a former
high-ranking Israeli naval officer, Shlomo Erell, told the Associated Press
(June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would
be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were
advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100
miles."
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: "It was
the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the navy
in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional."
Continued.....
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do I can still laugh loudly"
can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
Don Ocean
And obviously belong to the propaganda wing of the Murderous
antigentile Zionist. If our intel and money in 1967 hadn't been
in place, Israel wouldn't exist today.My city coughed up $5 million
dollars to help your so-=called homeland..Why the Hell aren't you
living there and calling it home? To date the American Government
has coughed up over $1.3 trillion in direct money..not counting
all of the under the table help/money/weapons etc. And that does
not count the massive amounts of money sent from just about every
city in the USA. From the time of the Balfour accords foreward to
now...your zionist group has done nothing but foment murder and
destruction. The Liberty was ours and was there to help you..But nooooo!
our so-called zionist friends wanted to pull some crap that they didn't
want witnessed...And would have really ticked Americans off..if known
about!
Maybe you should start explaining the bombing of the King David Hotel
and
work foreward. When it comes to promoting antigentile zionist
interests..
All of the Generous helpful Americans are up for crucifixion!! Remember
your so-called homeland only exists because of America's foolish
generosity
and the spin put on history propaganda. You Zionists have had since 1947
and
before to make peace with your semite brethen...And have failed to do
so!
It is time to cut you loose from our purse strings. Our generosity will
be
put to good use in trying to make this world a better place for everyone
to
live in and not just the @#&!! Antigentile-ZionNazi's! So take you lying
propaganda and move it..along with your body back to Israel! Where it
belongs.
You have created that war zone...go live in it. Take your medicine..
Your good
at handing it out...Not taking it!
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> USS Liberty Slanders (1)
<Snipped the Zion-Nazi propaganda...Every proof and Quote was by a Jew>
<I guess tha means all othe bloodlines that counradicted these
statements no longer exist>
rgol...@bellsouth.net
here but you can't accept them because a Jew wrote them!
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do I can still laugh loudly"
can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F510A77...@amerion.com...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> ROFLOL you took the bait so well you storm trooping fairy! the facts are
> here but you can't accept them because a lying Jew wrote them!
I will let your Arab brethen judge you. Do what you will do..but
without American money..I see there is a coalition of Democrats
that want aid to Israel trimmed or cut off. A lot of those folks
are American Jews...Not Zion-Nazi's.
>
> --
> "I have seen the worst that man can do I can still cry loudly"
> can still whine loudly"
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do I can still laugh loudly"
can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F5111BA...@amerion.com...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> go back to your goose stepping you oil whore
You lose!!
>
> --
> "I have seen the worst that man can do I can still babble loudly"
> can still blantantly lie loudly"
rgol...@bellsouth.net
Bell induced world
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do I can still laugh loudly"
can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F5170C2...@amerion.com...
al953
Liberty & planned to blame the Eygptians. Things did not work out as
planned. Period!!!
Gold man, you are a lying sack of zionazi shit.
<rgol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ep34b.1190$L6....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
these years and the only thing you read is the shit drawings on the wall
that you made when you were bored with eating it/
??
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"al953" <al...@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:SPDdb.156374$0v4.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
any.
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"al953" <al...@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:SPDdb.156374$0v4.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> ROFLOL prove it you idiot. or have you been living in the outhouse for all
> these years and the only thing you read is the shit drawings on the wall
> that you made when you were bored with eating it/
Forget it Goldman...You blew it with your BS story on the USS liberty.
You no longer have any credibility after those blatant lies!! The fact
of the
matter is that your murdering ZionNazi's Attacked American property and
killed
American servicemen....Period... Now Mr ZionNazi...Maybe you should have
heard
What a couple of American Jews had to say about it... If Barry
Goldwater(Goldwasserman)
been elected to the Presidency in 1964...You can bet that An
eye-for-and-eye
would have been collected.. I don't know which one,But one of your
cities would have
disappeared. My family did business with the Goldwater Brothers and was
somewhta aquainted
with the 2 sons and daughter. Barry was an Arizona state Senator and a
reserve AirForce
General. George Goebels who also lived in Phoenix had a few cutting
remarks about that
Malicious attack also.. Admiral Hyman Rickhover said that we should
have a public
inquest and then pick an Israeli target to eliminate of equal value
..plus punitive!!
Hyman was also of mixed emotions as he had encouraged a heavy flow of
money to Israel.
Senator Karl Mundt of South Dakota(Voted a lot of money etc for Israel)
Stated flatly
that we should have a podium apology today or a target tommorrow! So Mr
Goldman....
You obviously are antiAmerican on this issue...Therefore a traitor to
any US military
oath that you took. And If in any way, shape or form..Israel should even
have a smidgeon
of guilt in the WTC..It should be eliminated from the face of the earth!
As should any
other country that were involved. By the way my deceased(Orthodox)
partner was quite up
set by the liberty debacle! So Mr
AntiGentile-Traitorous-ZionNazi...Stick that in your
ear!!
> ??
>
> --
> "I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still lie loudly"
lazimodo
"al953" <al...@xyz.com> wrote in message
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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rgol...@bellsouth.net
has been released to the world and it stated that it was an accident. plan
and simple. fog of war. friendly fire. get over it and yourself you dubass
brown shit moron
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F77A4B9...@amerion.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
wanna try me douche bag?
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"lazimodo @gosympatico.ca>" <lazimodo<nospam> wrote in message
news:OQMdb.17092$Ej.24...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
ckretsorse
> who wrote the book that damned Israel for the attack was also a crypto
> officer on the U.S.S. Liberty. That doesn't however, place him in a better
> position to know what was _intended_ by the Israelis.
Your right, it may not place him in a better
position to know what was intended, but there were Iraeli
soldiers
on the speedboats who did acknowledge what Happened and were in the best
position to know.
Accidentally confusing the USS
Liberty was
possible, however, by sending in speedboats,
your intentions are not to damage or attack a ship,
but with an intent
to identify and sink. The boats were close enough to identify the
American
Flag before any worTh damage was dun .
-J.Steinberg
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> ROFLOL ocean you need to look at the proof and mot up your ass. the data
> has been released to the world and it stated that it was an accident. plan
> and simple. fog of war. friendly fire. get over it and yourself you dubass
> brown shit moron
Yep...Check is in the mail...OJ is innocent...Goldman is
always right...Even if he couldn't refute the facts in my post.
But these things are to be expected from a murdering
AntiGentileZionNazi.
One who claims to have taken an oath to protect America from Enemies
from
within and without. Yet swears fialty to Israel over that of the USA. I
guess I got you so excited that now you are even mispelling the slurs
that you
caste, when you cannot construct a viable answer/retort to the truthful
charges against your and your ilk! I quoted some real Jews and the best
you could
do is quote another ZionNazi......Do us all a favor and move to Israel
and don't come
back!!
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> Here in Miami. afraid of this Goldman (Cousin to Ron) but trained,,,,,,,,,,
> wanna try me douche bag?
What the ????????? Are you losing it Goldman? I didn't see a challenge
in that statement....And There are a least a dozen folks on this NG
that handle that quite easily. Keep in mind ...Ain't none of us are
Pali"s
that will take being pushed around. So settle down and go back to your
lying propagandizing murderous AntiGentileZionNazi-ism!!
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"ckretsorse" <st...@foxforx.com> wrote in message
news:gXOdb.35827$3r1....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F781A62...@amerion.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
actions?
go bitch about true traitors. you know the ones in the news which you have
been so quiet about dumbass
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F781C52...@amerion.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
ones that are not know this and I know them but the rest of them like you
are a worthless collection of tin foil morons
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F781C52...@amerion.com...
>
>
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> more lies by Don don the demented trailer dwelling dwarf.
I guess you live under the trailer..;-P
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F780157...@amerion.com...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> Liberty opened fire. REMEMBER?
With what? It was an unarmed intel platform...Helping you ZionNazi's!
The ship had no mounted weaponry.. There was small arms in the
shore party weapons lockers. Return fire by small arms was about 13
minutes
after first attack.. Those and many other statements were suppressed
when an
inquest was finally held years later.
Tell ya what...Why don't you and your buds jump one of our aegis
destroyers
and see how the heck you come out against a real armed adversary?
rgol...@bellsouth.net
officers told the bridge gun crews to hold their fire yet the moron on the
gun opened fire on the boats, you twit you need to read everything not just
the Nazi bullshit you are handed by the puppet masters
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F7803D3...@amerion.com...
Mike Weeks
>Date: 9/28/2003 09:16 Pacific Daylight Time
>The irrefutable facts are: The Isrealis intentionally attacked the USS
>Liberty
<start>
It remains our best judgment that the Israeli attack the USS Liberty was not
made in malice toward the United States and was a mistake.
<end>
CIA Director ADM Turner to Senator Abourezk, Feb. 27, 1978.
http://libertyincident.com/cia.htm
<start>
(S-CCO) The Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty some 14 years ago was,
indeed, a wrenching experience for U.S. Sigint agencies. The loss,
particularly in the case of those Sigint specialists who gave their lives or
were wounded, was difficult to accept. The knowledge that the tragedy resulted
not only from Israeli miscalculations but also from faulty U.S. communications
practices was even more difficult to accept.
<end>
NSA 1981 "The Liberty" Incident report, the foreword.
http://libertyincident.com/nsa.htm
>& planned to blame the Eygptians.
On 8 June 1967, the day the IDF reached the Suez Canal????? Egypt had already
broken relations (on 6 June) w/ the U.S. due to the Arab Big Lie ...
MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak
Mike Weeks
>Date: 9/28/2003 21:55 Pacific Daylight Time
>> The U.S. Liberty was on an intelligence gathering mission and James Ennis,
>> who wrote the book that damned Israel for the attack was also a crypto
>> officer on the U.S.S. Liberty. That doesn't however, place him in a better
>> position to know what was _intended_ by the Israelis.
>
>Your right, it may not place him in a better
>position to know what was intended, but there were Iraeli
>soldiers
> on the speedboats who did acknowledge what Happened and were in the best
> position to know.
And who have never claimed anything close to what Ennes has claimed ...
> Accidentally confusing the USS
>Liberty was
>possible, however, by sending in speedboats,
>your intentions are not to damage or attack a ship,
>but with an intent
>to identify and sink.
?????????????
>The boats were close enough to identify the
>American
> Flag before any worTh damage was dun .
<start>
O 192026Z JUN 67
FM CINCUSNAVEUR
TO SECNAV
...
1. FOLLOWING RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS POSED BY SECNAV:
A. WAS SMOKE FROM FIRES ABOARD LIBERTY FOLLOWING
AIR ATTACK HEAVY ENOUGH TO PRECLUDE IDENTIFICATION?
YES, PARTICULARLY BY TORPEDO BOATS APPROACHING FROM STARBOARD QUARTER. SURFACE
WINDS WERE NEGLIGIBLE SO RELATIVE WIND DUE PRIMARILY TO LIBERTY'S SOA. SMOKE
FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALE-BOAT (STARBOARD WAIST) AND STACK (ABAFT ISLAND
STRUCTURE) MUST HAVE PROVIDED EFFECTIVE SCREENING OF HOLIDAY COLORS FLYING FROM
PORT HALYARD.
...
<end>
From CNO Liberty File; USNHC, WDC
Mike Weeks
>Date: 9/29/2003 03:05 Pacific Daylight Time
>rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>>
>> Liberty opened fire. REMEMBER?
>
>With what? It was an unarmed intel platform...
<start>
... When speed was particularly important, however, the preferred method was
simply for one of us to go to the reporters' room and accept the concomitant
disadvantages, and on the Liberty case I chose that course. Among the questions
asked after the announcement were these:
Q: What attacked it?
A: It was attacked by motor torpedo boat or boats, and aircraft.
Q: Was it hit by torpedoes?
A: The report we have indicates at least one torpedo hit.
Q: Did she fire back?
A: She is armed only with our .50-caliber machine guns. I don't have
information on whether she fired back.
...
<end>
From Phil Goulding's book "Confirm or Deny", pages 105-106; reported transcript
of initial press briefing on 8 June 1967 by then assist. SecDef for public
affairs Goulding.
>The ship had no mounted weaponry..
<start>
For clarification purposes, the 50 caliber machine guns that are onboard USS
Liberty are Browning machine guns, M2, heavy barrel, with a rate of fire of 450
to 500 rounds per minute. These machine guns are mounted on pedestal and are
aircooled weapons. Two men can effectively serve the gun. ...
<end>
from CDR McGonagle sworn testimony, 14 June 1967, page 49
http://libertyincident.com/USNcourt.htm
>There was small arms in the
>shore party weapons lockers. Return fire by small arms was about 13
>minutes
>after first attack..
.50 caliber mounted MGs are not normally considered "small arms" ...
>Those and many other statements were suppressed
>when an
>inquest was finally held years later.
???????????
<start>
When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of
the formation was signaling to us. Also, at this range, it appeared that they
were flying an Israeli flag. This was later verified. It was not possible to
read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent
blocking of view by smoke and flames. At this time, I yelled to machine gun 51
to tell him to hold fire. I realized that there was a possibility of the
aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error. I
wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat
and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries. The man on machine
gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I
was attempting to have him do. Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire
machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat. From the starboard wing of the
bridge, 03 level, I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely
effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat. It was not
possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. ... As far
as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they were
under fire from USS LIBERTY. At this time, they opened fire with their gun
mounts and in a matter of seconds, one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the
ship at about 25 yards. ...
<end>
from CDR McGonagle sworn testimony, 14 June 1967, pages 39-40.
http://libertyincident.com/USNcourt.htm
<start>
Captain William McGonagle: A short time after the air attack had been
completed, the three torpedo boats approached us from our starboard quarter at
high speed, and in an apparent torpedo launch altitude. As they approached to
within about one mile of the ship, I saw what appeared to me an Israeli flag on
one of the boats, and at one time it appeared that the centre boat was
attempting to signal the ship, but because of the intermittent blocking of the
signal light by the smoke and flames, we were unable to determine what this
boat was attempting to signal. I had previously directed a man from the bridge
to proceed to the forward starboard gun mount and take the torpedo boats under
fire in an attempt to defend ourselves. When I saw what appeared to be the
Israeli flag, I yelled to the fo'c's'le because I had no phone communications
with the man - and I yelled to him to tell him to hold fire. But before he was
able to understand what I was trying to tell him, he opened fire on the boats
as I had directed.
<end>
from transcript (page 15, frame 72) of 1987 Thames TV pgm "Attack on the
Liberty" — filmed press interview by CDR McGonagle aboard USS Liberty on 29
July 1967.
>Tell ya what...
Not much it appears.
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> 20mm 50 cal. you dumb ass fool you never read anything on the liberty. the
> officers told the bridge gun crews to hold their fire yet the moron on the
> gun opened fire on the boats, you twit you need to read everything not just
> the Nazi bullshit you are handed by the puppet masters
I Know that your not very bright...But a fifty calibre is small arms and
is not deck mounted...It is locker stored!! As for the so-called
20MM...Again
that shows your ignorance.. 1. There was no 20MM and 2. The Navy stopped
using 20MM about 1949...Sold most of them to Sweden etc. I think they
did dig
some up for the use on shore installs in later day Veit Nam.. But not in
1967!
The only 20mm around were on ships in the moles.. And the liberty was
not one
of them. We also sent a bunch of those LST's to Taiwan in 1958..But the
20MM's were
still under cocoons until they were opened in Taiwan. As for Ammo...Most
old 20MM
was stored at the lowest level of the Ammo docks Pearl Harbor! Do a
search and see
if you can find any contracts to make new 20mm in thatat time
period...Just ain't
there sport! 20mm was an AA weapon and effectivity was very low..Not
controlled by
Fire control computer...Replaced many moons ago by 30"X50" Fire
controlled Autoloaders
About 1949!!!!Now these were deck mounted.. Now!!! WHY?? would anyone
even care
if that ship were armed or not.. YOU Murdering-ZionNazi's sneak attacked
an
American ship that made the mistake of trusting you and then tried to
blame the
Egyptians. YOU and the REST of the Murdering AntiGentileZionNazi's shot
the American
people in the back and deserve a terrible retribution for that action.
This US
Government should know better then to trust you backstabbing swine
again.
By the way...No Officer ever issued such a command!! Read the
quartermasters
log...Its available now! We do have a couple of the American politicians
that
covered up that massacre still alive and NERVOUS. A public hanging for
them
is not good enough!!
>
> --
> "I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still lie very loudly"
rgol...@bellsouth.net
considered "small arms" ("light arms" would fly ) and as to not be
deck-mounted ...
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123754.jpg
and most certainly 20MM were very active in VN in 1967 ... we all Know that
your not very bright
It might be best to just reference the above photo link
then go kick yourself for making a fool of yourself with your stupid
answers.
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F78E6E8...@amerion.com...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> Wonder what world you live in to not only think .50 cal. would be
> considered "small arms" ("light arms" would fly ) and as to not be
> deck-mounted ...
WWII Fifty Calibres were deckmounted on ring welded to the decks...But
only on
landing craft etc... Thats not ships... And Naval inventory calls 50
calibre
small arms.. Our next step up was 3"X50", 5"X38" 8", 12" 16" And some
old
19"... Deck mortars from 80mm and 120mm. All Cannon were rifled!!
Have you figured out what a gun is yet?? ;-p
All of this is moot....The real story here is the cowardice of a
backstabbing
small nation. Their lack of honesty and honor...lack of appreciation!
>
> http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123754.jpg
I don't have a clue as to what that picture alludes...Naval 20MM were
twin-barrelled....!! ;-p Nice try though..
>
> and most certainly 20MM were very active in VN in 1967 ... we all Know that
> your not very bright
Really.. I was there from 64 through 69....Where were they? I pretty
much
traveled the 4 countries.. The riverines used 50 calibres and lights
...Even
a few deck mortars...The Seals had the best and also some exotic stuff.
The Rangers
were pretty much with only issued gear. The Navy facgroups had a few
Bofars left by
French..Almost the same as ours...thats why I agreed there were some
20mm in Nam.
The Greenbeanies were a mix of M16's some 14's and a bunch of AK's..Some
one also
slipped them some old bBelgain Anti-tank rifles. And the Marines fought
with
any thing they could get their hands on including K-bars. The AF weanies
only had
shiny stuff...Not too much for mixing it up...Marines usually settled up
any
AF base overruns. My personal favorite was a trench shotgun with
doorbusters.
So Mr weapons expert...It appears you have lied again to cover up your
MurderousAntiGentileZionNazi's sneak attack on a basically unarmed US
Navy ship!
You people seem to do your best work on sneaking up on the unsuspecting
noncombatant unarmed victims... Jeez! You probably gave medals to the
swine
that did this murderous act! But then again...You guys probably wouldn't
survive an "close and personal" encounter with dedicated combat
soldiers..
rgol...@bellsouth.net
why not ask the naval historian Mike Weeks as per his work on it donny you
fail the test, and after your continued failure to READ the subject matter
and to see the facts as they are you have proved to all that you are nothing
more then a hate filled jackass,
NOT ALL 20mm's were twins, My God man who's navy did you claim to serve in?
Single mount 20's were used from their inception through their retirement
later then you stated. but that pic was a MOUNTED 05 inch..... a 50
Cal...... in a TUB
any more attempts to bullshit ? I'm waiting and so are "the pros from Dover"
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F795AE3...@amerion.com...
Don Ocean
rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> ROFLOL
> why not ask the naval historian Mike Weeks as per his work on it donny you
> fail the test, and after your continued failure to READ the subject matter
> and to see the facts as they are you have proved to all that you are nothing
> more then a hate filled jackass,
> NOT ALL 20mm's were twins,
They were twins since WWI ... AA utility..Not enough spread on VT and
not very good VT.
Look in Janes.. dip stick!!
My God man who's navy did you claim to serve in?
Sure as Hell wasn't the Jew-Brigade flying the JollyRoger..Manned
by a bunch of murderousAntiGentileZionNazi's
> Single mount 20's were used from their inception through their retirement
> later then you stated. but that pic was a MOUNTED 05 inch
That tub was a leftover from an old 40mm.... I have no idea what that
dark
stick thing was...But it sure wasn't a 5 inch or a 5o... Looked somewhat
like the profile of a mounted M60... Or an old Antitank rifle...
Or a doctored picture... Kind of like the doctored up stories you tell
to
cover up the massacre of the lads on the USS Liberty.. By the way..The
Lads
are extending an invitation to you for their reunion in november...
..... a 50
> Cal...... in a TUB
> any more attempts to bullshit ? I'm waiting and so are "the pros from Dover"
The real point is that you and yours are traitors and should be treated
as such!!
And You were at the most a reservist.. Mike weeks wasn't there I Was..
And you
weren't.. You and your buds were busy backstabbing the US.. I note that
you have
ignored all the real jews who have spoken out agoinst this. Dover? Are
you a
total ignoramus. And why don't you get a job?
After vetoing over 60 resolutions against Israel...Its time to admit
our shame and walk away from that mess. The ZionNazi's have used us!
And its time for a reality check. Also its time to stop allowing the US
to be a hiding place for the cowards in the IDF that refuse to live
where they have murdered palestinians.
rgol...@bellsouth.net
source comes from the US department of the NAVY website
http://www.history.navy.mil
so you want to say this picture from your Navy (if you really served and
doubts are rising big time )
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123754.jpg
is doctored? ROFLOL
son you need to get over yourself and your hate of Jews and Israel.. or
better yet come out of the closet as your true self an ava Brown drag
queen.......
you did a deeper hole with each answer. and prove to me and everyone
involved how stupid you really are.
thanks for playing you tin foil twit.
as for anti Gentile and traitorous bastard. you still have never provided
one bit of proof to your claims. (fat chance of you proving anything .)
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3F79768F...@amerion.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
Definition of small arms and light weapons [taken from Experts Report,
see p. 24, Notes #5] http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/CAB/rep54258e.pdf
"Broadly speaking, small arms are those weapons designed for personal
use, and light weapons are those designed for use by several persons serving
as a crew. The category of small arms includes revolvers and self-loading
pistols, rifles and carbines, sub-machine guns, assault rifles and light
machine-guns. Light weapons include heavy machine-guns, hand-held
under-barrel and mounted grenade launchers, portable anti-aircraft guns,
portable anti-tank guns, recoilless rifles, portable launchers of anti-tank
missile and rocket systems, portable launchers of anti-aircraft missile
systems, and mortars of calibres of less than 100 mm. Ammunition and
explosives form an integral part of small arms and light weapons used in
conflicts, and include cartridges (rounds) for small arms, shells and
missiles for light weapons, anti-personnel and anti-tank hand grenades,
landmines, explosives, and mobile containers with missiles or shells for
single-action anti-aircraft and anti-tank systems."
Mike Weeks
>Date: 9/30/2003 03:28 Pacific Daylight Time
>rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123754.jpg
>
>I don't have a clue as to what that picture alludes...
One of the four deck-mounted .50 cals. aboard USS Liberty you twit; in this
case, the port aft one on the 03 level of the superstructure.
>Naval 20MM were
>twin-barrelled....!! ;-p Nice try though..
>>
>> and most certainly 20MM were very active in VN in 1967 ... we all Know
>that
>> your not very bright
>
>Really.. I was there from 64 through 69....Where were they? I pretty
>much
>traveled the 4 countries.. The riverines used 50 calibres and lights
>...Even
>a few deck mortars...
http://www.riverinesailor.com/Weaponry.htm
"The two pictures on the left show our port and starboard 20MM cannons."
http://pub34.ezboard.com/fbrownwaternavyanddeltaarmyvietnamveteransfrm10.s
howMessage?topicID=24.topic
"In the after turrent [sic] was an aircraft style belt fed 20mm cannon with a
capacity of 1100 linked rounds at ready."
Yeah, really.
What a clueless individual.
Private Account
rgol...@bellsouth.net
Ocean claimed that they were no longer around. the 20's he is most likely
thinking about are the aircraft versions.
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Mike Weeks" <mic...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030930140220...@mb-m01.aol.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
this is too Easy, but you know he only responds to me. he is way too much of
a chicken shit to go after the guy that wrote the books on the subject.
Yup you are "The Pro from Dover"
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Mike Weeks" <mic...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030930140220...@mb-m01.aol.com...
Mike Weeks
>Date: 9/30/2003 12:17 Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
>NICE PICS of single barreled 20mm's being used after that so called expert
>Ocean claimed that they were no longer around. the 20's he is most likely
>thinking about are the aircraft versions.
There appears to be many items he's confused about. Not the least the subject
of this thread ...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Mike Weeks" <mic...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030930200754...@mb-m07.aol.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
weeks raked him over the coals.
funny I expected more for the closet Nazi drag queen!!
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
<rgol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:53reb.5445$Nz6....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
montgomery_scott
> expert
> > > >Ocean claimed that they were no longer around. the 20's he is most
> likely
> > > >thinking about are the aircraft versions.
> > >
> > > There appears to be many items he's confused about. Not the least the
> subject
> > > of this thread ...
> > >
> > > MW
> > > -------------------------------------
> > > "As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak
Acch! m'wee aeronautically inclined bairn!!! I've missed y'mikey
since you ran away from the USNI board discussion on just what it was
EXACTLY the wee fighter pilots could see antecedent to their attack on
the USS Liberty.
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@164.WBsDaBvXbbF^2@.ee9731e
In fright, mikey took flight... i was plaintively wailing like a wee
banshee when mikey took a cowardly dive and left the USNI board after
he got a SECOND challenge t'this first posting.
FIRST POSTING ON USNI BOARD:
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@164.WBsDaBvXbbF^7@.ee9724d/115
<<<TO ALL MESSAGE BOARD READERS:
GO TO THE USNI DISCUSSION ON "FRIENDLESS FIRE" WHICH IS ENTITLED, "TOP
GUN PILOT/INSTRUCTOR ANNIHILATES ISRAELI EXCUSE THAT LIBERTY ATTACK
WAS A "TRAGIC MISTAKE":
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@164.WBsDaBvXbbF^25@.ee9731e
WE HAVE NAVAL AVIATOR,MIKE WEEKS, WHO CAN ANSWER POINT-BY-POINT the
analysis of the Isareli attack by the Top Gun Trainer...
...cutting and pasting AND RESPONDING just like he has done with all
of our messages
don't think he will though... it is pretty devastating to the Israeli
line of hooey!!
IN FACT, I'M BETTING THAT MIKE WILL BE SO HUMILIATED THAT WE HAVE SEEN
THE LAST OF OUR PRO-ISRAELI LADDIE on these boards...
If that is indeed the case... then it was good getting aquainted with
you, mike... >>>
SECOND POSTING TO MIKEY ON THE USNI BOARD(THIS WUZZ TH'LAST I HEARD
FROM M'WEE BAIRN, MIKEY):
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@164.WBsDaBvXbbF^7@.ee9724d/139
<<<Montgomery Scott - 12:24pm Jul 21, 2003 EST (#126 of 160)
Acch! m'wee aeronautically inclined bairn!!!
Once again as a naval aviator i'd urge you to address the issues
raised by the top gun instructor in the other discussion under the
USNI "friendless fire" umbrella...
...cutting and and pasting and responding just like you did with all
the other's posts
talk about "target study", laddie... talk about it all... talk about
the hits on the forward gun tubs and the attack profile lie by
cristol(or whatever aviator provided him with that line of hooey)...
..talk about the Malaysian and Liberian flags and how many times as a
naval aviator that you accidentally landed on a Malaysian aircraft
carrier...
...and could y'tell us if it was a Liberian Aircraft carrier that
Cristol flew off of... was he the pilot or passenger?
...he flew a MiG... was he the pilot??? ...how many two- seater MiGs
were we in possession of???
i apologize for being so skeptical of you and the good judge, m'wee
bairn... it justs strikes me as funny as why a federal judge couldna'
discern whose accounts were both "reliable" and "probative"(Israeli
murderers at El Arish with a long history of forging documentation OR
our trained laddies who were following orders on the Liberty and who
were no butchering Egyptian POWs and maybe civilians... they wer
sunbathing on deck)... and when the man that the good judge called a
"man of integrity" says he never recanted his navy times statements it
cause me to wonder who INDEED IT WAS that stated ward boston recanted
his statements in the first place...
...and that was the good judge...
INTRUDER ALERT,LADDIES
The two pillars of the Israeli line of hooey that this was a mistaken
identity are:
1)technobaable where one can technobabble
2)where one canna' technobabble... say that the crew's testimony was
the product of "flawed memories" or "lies"
OK, then....
the crew's testimony said the same thing as Yitzhak Rabin initially
wrote before somebody w'some sense in the Israeli Air Force took
yitzhak's fountain pen away from him and shut the good yitzhak's yap
up for good:
Yitzhak Rabin: A ship had been sighted opposite El Arish.
Following standing orders to attack any unidentified
vessel near the shore (after appropriate attempts had
been made to ascertain its identity), our air force and
navy zeroed in on the vessel and damaged it. But they
still could not tell whose ship it was.... Four of our
planes flew over it at a low altitude in an attempt to
identify the ship, but they were unable to make out any
markings and therefore concluded it must be
Egyptian....
Accchhh, Norma!!! Those wee or no-so wee "markings".... unfortunately
there was a no-so-wee satellite dish "moon bounce" TRSSCOMM antenna
that was "100 times the size AND 1000 times the significance from a
fighter pilots standpoint" that identified the ship far more clearly
than the supposedly limp US Flag or any "markings"
So Yitzhak was told to keep his yap shut after that... it was a good
idea taking his fountain pen away from him since the only thing WORSE
that the wee laddie could do with it was injure himself...
BUT THE CREW'S TESTIMONY ABOUT THE FLY-BY ANTECEDENT TO THE ATTACK,
UNLIKE ISRAEL'S "FLAWED MEMORY" DIDNA' CHANGE....
...AND GUESS WHAT, M'WEE BAIRNS???... FOR THE WEAPONS RELEASED... THE
CREW'S AND YITZHAK'S ACCOUNTS WERE FOR THE "STANDARD" ATTACK PROFILE A
FIGHTER PILOT WOULD HAVE USED ....NOT THE "WEIRD" ATTACK PROFILE
OUTLINED IN THE DIAGRAM IN NAVAL AVIATOR A. JAY HOOEY'S, "THE LIBERTY
INCIDENT"...
...AND NAVAL AVIATOR, MIKEY WEEKS, RAN AWAY FROM THE MESSAGE BOARD
RATHER THAN RESPOND TO THE TOP GUN...CUTTING AND PASTING...LIKE HE HAD
DONE IN RESPONDING TO EVERYBODY ELSE'S POSTS ON THE USNI BOARD...
12,700 GOOGLE NEWSGROUP "HITS" DEFENDING THESE MURDEROUS THUGS BUT HE
RUNS AWAY FROM "CUTTING AND PASTING" AND RESPONDING LINE-BY-LINE TO MY
ANNOTATED VERSION OF THE TOP GUN'S ANALYSIS...
...BUT FOR YOUR SAKE, NORMA... I'M GOING TO GIVE MIKEY A CHANCE ON
THIS THREAD... THIS TIME THOUGH, I'LL GIVE WEE BITE-SIZED BITS OF
MESSAGE BOARD "HAGGIS" FOR MIKEY TO CHEW ON...
OKAY, MIKEY... NORMA'S WATCHING...IT'LL TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS but
WE'LL GO LINE-BY-LINE,M'WEE AERONAUTICALLY INCLINED NAVAL AVIATING
BAIRN.
NOW A. JAY HOOEY SAID:
"The first and most easily identifiable marking of Liberty was her
color. She was painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
battleship gray.
BUT TOP GUN, BRUCE CHARLES SAID:
1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when the color is
a dull gray.
who's correct, mikey??? ...and i'll let y'know... i know i've been
away for awhile BUT in the meantime(in between time... ain't we got
fun)... i've assembled an extra special "audience", laddie who are
going to watch each line-by-line response of yours over the next few
days... cutting and pasting... as you did before...
...also, mikey... you'll be so proud of me for this... after we get
through w'this discussion... i got william green's, "world guide to
combat planes(volume 1) 1967".... a member of my special "audience"
wants to talk about cristol talking to the attacking pilot "25 years
and 2 days after the attack" AS OPPOSED TO on one of his 15 trips to
israel WHY THE naval aviator, a. jay hooey, didna' have the sense to
look at the debriefing documentation that would have been generated "0
years and 2 hours after the attack" especially since the attack, at
best, was a violation of Article 2 of the Hague Convention on Naval
Warfare("Mistaken Identity")
BWAAAAHAAAHAA!!! ROTFLMAO!!! LOL!!!
aye, mikey...before any of this extra-special audience call you a
"traitor" they want to see you answer the Top Gun line-by-line.
there y'have it, norma, m'wee lassie... mikey'll respond t'that Top
Gun's missive line-by-line...cutting and pasting as he did in his
responses on the USNI board...
norma, m'wee lassie.... when y'think aboot it... there would only be
one reason a person w'12700 google messages saying it was a case of
"mistaken identity" wouldna' respond to the Top Gun's missive.
...because, by virtue of the fly-by and seeing the TRSSCOMM antenna
that the crew and yitzhak rabin testified to, the pilot knew he was
attacking an american ship... he participated in the slaughter of wee
lads barely in their twenties who were sunbathing on the deck...
...and then we PROBABLY should move on to the supposedly NEXT "flawed
memory" of firing on the life rafts FROM people caught "lying" aboot
the attack profile WHILE dismissing the crew's testimony of the same
event as the product of "flawed memories"....
...but then all m'work in the last 5 weeks assembling m'special
audience and th'help they gave me on william green's, "world guide to
combat planes" would go t'waste(they're no allowing me to tell you
everything, mikey--- it's called "sandbagging";they want you to stick
your neck oot,laddie).... but after we've caught mikey weeks and a.
jay hooey in these lies...
..we'll get to the firing on the life rafts... but nobody'll be buying
the israeli version of events then...
...don't worry, mikey... i'll also "cut and re-paste" your messages
here to the USNI site... at my request, they kept the discussion
boards on USNI articles from disappearing after 90 days...
...aye,laddie... in the words of that wee dane, hamlet,..."though this
be madness; there twas method in it"
as always, m'wee bairn.
Montgomery Scott
Chief Engineer
Starship Enterprise
...and one more thing, mikey.... very soon, those murderous israeli
thugs are going to realize that INDEED the decision to attack what
they knew was an american vessel and murder wee lads barely in their
twenties was INDEED "a tragic mistake"
Mike Weeks
>Date: 10/2/2003 09:11 Pacific Daylight Time
> Acch! m'wee aeronautically inclined bairn!!!
Take less scotch.
>I've missed y'mikey
>since you ran away from the USNI board discussion on just what it was
>EXACTLY the wee fighter pilots could see antecedent to their attack on
>the USS Liberty.
Clueless, Charles wasn't part of the IAF; not that it would matter much, not
when Charles claims the USAF mis-identification of the Blackhawks over northern
Iraq in 1994 didn't involve a visual inspection ...
http://www.schwabhall.com/opc_report.htm
<start>
When the F-15 pilots were unable to get positive/consistent IFF responses they
performed an intercept in order to visually identify the "unknown" aircraft.
They each made a single identification pass on the Black Hawks. However, the
identification passes were accomplished at speeds, altitudes, and distances
where it was unlikely that the pilots would have been able to detect the Black
Hawks' markings. Neither F-15 pilot had received recent, adequate visual
recognition training. The pilots did not recognize the differences between the
U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with wing-mounted fuel tanks and Hind helicopters
with wing-mounted weapons. The F-15 flight lead misidentified the U.S. Black
Hawks as Iraqi Hind helicopters. Following his identification pass, he asked
his wingman to confirm the identification. The wingman, who was a senior
squadron supervisor and instructor pilot, saw two helicopters but did not
positively identify them as Hinds. The wingman did not notify the flight lead
that he had been unable to make a positive identification and allowed the
engagement to continue The flight lead, acting within the specified ROE, fired
a single missile and shot down the trail Black Hawk helicopter. At flight
lead's direction, the F-15 wingman also fired a single missile and shot down
the lead Black Hawk helicopter.
<end>
AFAIK Ennes never stepped up to address those *small* problems in his posts.
Those located at:
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@244.lB7aaDfmbQ3^0@.ee9724d
posts #79 & #80 to name two
<zzzzzzzzzz>
>...and one more thing, mikey.... very soon, those murderous israeli
>thugs are going to realize that INDEED the decision to attack what
>they knew was an american vessel and murder wee lads barely in their
>twenties was INDEED "a tragic mistake"
Whatever. Take less scotch; or take more and just beam yourself into very deep
space ...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.03100...@posting.google.com...
montgomery_scott
<<<here's another ASS CLOWN with more bullshit pouring out of his
brain>>>
Accch! m'wee bairn.... m'very first google posting AND already i have
been "outed" as an "ASS CLOWN with more bullshit pouring out of his
brain"(you're either "incredibly perceptive" OR in the alternative, i
might have been "incredibly obvious")...almost like that wee US
ambassador's wife who was "outed" as the CIA operative in Niger...
SO NOW THAT WE'VE DISPOSED OF THAT ISSUE, RJ GOLDMAN OF THE US IDF
VETS...I'LL REITERATE FOR YOU AND MIKEY(WHO HAS OVER 12,700 GOOGLE
HITS DEFENDING THE ISRAELI ATTACK BUT SEEMINGLY UNABLE TO GET OVER THE
ATTENDANT METACARPAL KEYBOARD WRIST CRAMP(a dreaful medical malady)
when it comes to answering the Top Gun's missive on post#12,701:
12,700 GOOGLE NEWSGROUP "HITS" DEFENDING THESE MURDEROUS THUGS BUT HE
> > RUNS AWAY FROM "CUTTING AND PASTING" AND RESPONDING LINE-BY-LINE TO MY
> > ANNOTATED VERSION OF THE TOP GUN'S ANALYSIS...
> >
> > ...BUT FOR YOUR SAKE, NORMA... I'M GOING TO GIVE MIKEY A CHANCE ON
> > THIS THREAD... THIS TIME THOUGH, I'LL GIVE WEE BITE-SIZED BITS OF
> > MESSAGE BOARD "HAGGIS" FOR MIKEY TO CHEW ON...
> >
> > OKAY, MIKEY... NORMA'S WATCHING...IT'LL TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS but
> > WE'LL GO LINE-BY-LINE,M'WEE AERONAUTICALLY INCLINED NAVAL AVIATING
> > BAIRN.
> >
> > NOW A. JAY HOOEY SAID:
> > "The first and most easily identifiable marking of Liberty was her
> > color. She was painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
> > battleship gray.
> >
> > BUT TOP GUN, BRUCE CHARLES SAID:
> > 1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when the color is
> > a dull gray.
> >
> > who's correct, mikey???
<<<here's another ASS CLOWN with more bullshit pouring out of his
brain>>>...
... well you're going t'be jealous of me, RJ once you find out that
only "ass clowns with more bullshit than brains" are allowed to ride
in the back of a two-seater MiG... Unlike the Top Gun, RJ, i'm
applying to go to the traing school for pilots of the navy's slowest
plane( The school is colloquially known as, "Tip Top Turkey Prop")
BwaaaaHaaaaHaaa! ROTFLMAO!!! LOL!!!
A. Jay Hooey is the instructor.... "[he] flewwwww off of aircraft
carriers".... "[he] flewwww a MiG".... and when the questions got a
wee bit tough.... he flewww the coop(he now says that he has answered
and been interviewed enough, i believe ,after the Wolf Blitzer
interview)...
...and so did Mikey on the USNI.ORG board when it comes to "target
study"
...y'know A. Jay Hooey didna' say he "piloted" a MiG... just how many
two seater MiGs were we in possession of.... James Ennes flewww off of
an aircraft carrier, RJ... it was in an ambulance stretcher!!!...
BwaaaaHaaaHaa! ROTFLMAO!!! LOL!!!
SEMINAL PORTION OF PREVIOUS POST:
rgol...@bellsouth.net
you put it all in caps that you are right? go back to tin foil land you
stupid little wanker.
OH boy. what a braggart we have. a total loon and fool. no one cares what
you think. since it is not even thinking that is pushing out all this
garbage from your ass.
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.03100...@posting.google.com...
montgomery_scott
...and i'll certainly see that your reply and the attendant hyperlink
is forwarded to Bruce Charles for him to reply to... y'see, unlike
you, mikey, he doesna' run away... a wee bit technical for me to
comprehend,but if INDEED what you've posted to ACTUALLY DOES "amount
to a hill of beans" in terms of misidentification in the hyperlink you
gave AND why the Liberty was attacked, bruce won't back away.... on
the USNI board, i didna' back away from the Helms',"this was no
accident" WHEN you pointed out it was not on p.301 of Helms's book, "A
Look Over My Shoulder"... i stated that indeed i had only read the
book when it first came out and that i drew my quote from the Wolf
Blitzer interview with Bamford and A. Jay Hooey...
...nothing furtive.. nothing evasive
BRUCE WILL TELL YOU WHERE HE HEARD THAT ACCOUNT OF THE BLACK HAWK
FIRING AND WHO HE HEARD IT FROM.
...and in that spirit... for the FOURTH time, mikey....
>IT'LL TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS but
> WE'LL GO LINE-BY-LINE,M'WEE AERONAUTICALLY INCLINED NAVAL AVIATING
> BAIRN.
>
> NOW A. JAY HOOEY SAID:
> "The first and most easily identifiable marking of Liberty was her
> color. She was painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
> battleship gray.
>
> BUT TOP GUN, BRUCE CHARLES SAID:
> 1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when the color is
> a dull gray.
>
> who's correct, mikey???
THE SEMINAL PORTION OF THE PRIOR POST:
> Take less scotch.
SCOTTY FROM THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE REPLIES:
i knew Dr. McCoy was violating the client/patient privilege when i saw
you talking to him, mikey... okay... i like a wee thimbleful of a
single malt scotch after i get off duty in the engine room... and i
enjoy another wee thimbleful before i eat dinner... and another wee
thimbleful after dinner... and another wee thimbleful when i get back
to my quarters... and another wee thimbleful before i go t'sleep ...
and another wee thimbleful when i wake up ... and 24 or 25 wee
thimblefuls before i go on duty...
WELL, I'M WORKING OFF OF MEMORY HERE, MIKEY SINCE I DON'T HAVE
"ASSAULT ON THE LIBERTY" IN FRONT OF ME(AND I MAY NOT EVEN BE
CORRECTLY RESPONDING TO THE SPECIFIC ISSUE YOU RAISE or I MAY BE
RESPONDING TO A DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN THE ONE YOU WANT TO RAISE)... BUT
I THINK ENNES EXPLAINED HIS PRESENCE ON THE BRIDGE THAT MORNING IN THE
BOOK AND THE RATIONALE MADE SENSE... I BELIEVE HE WAS SUPPLEMEMTNING
THE EFFORTS OF TWO OFFICERS OF EQUAL RANK... WHAT LOG DID HE INDEED
FILL OUT? WHERE WAS THE MATERIAL CONTAINED IN HIS WRITINGS THAT
MCMONAGLE LEFT OUT?
BUT MIKEY. THREE TIMES, Y'STILL HAVNA' ANSWERED T'PEOPLE WHO ARE
CLAIMING SELF-DEFENSE:
NOW A. JAY HOOEY SAID:
> "The first and most easily identifiable marking of Liberty was her
> color. She was painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
> battleship gray.
>
> BUT TOP GUN, BRUCE CHARLES SAID:
> 1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when the color is
> a dull gray.
>
> who's correct, mikey???
I'M NOT LETTING ANYONE OFF THE HOOK, MIKEY but at the same time I'm
not going to accuse Jim nor Bruce of lying when you go off on umpteen
tangents.... i'll present this to Jim also... i noticed he doesn't
have any problems correcting errors in the addendum to the reintree
edition of his book(bull pup missiles/bombs)... i also note that
Jim,in that same addendum to the book regarding the radio jamming on
NCOI Finding of Fact #49 stated that the NCOI panel were skeptical of
the radio jamming but included it anyway... i DID notice that A. Jay
Hooey quoted CT Smith with the 1 KC off lie and didna' quote from him
only a few lines later WHEN CT Smith told the NCOI that he felt
jamming had occurred... i DID see that when you guffawed, "Some
jamming!!!" that you left out that same fact... and THEN there is
William Green's "World Guide to Combat Planes(volume 1)1967 where A.
Jay Hooey.....oooops!... maybe later, Mikey!!! I dinna' want t'tick
that special member of my audience who wants to "sandbag" you... so
were Jim's writings altered??? ...are alterations a violation of Navy
Regs?... seems it would go to intent... when everybody was still
concentrating on the visibilty of the flag AS OPPOSED TO the TRSSCOMM
antenna that was "100 times the size and 1000 times the significance"
someone gave the initial copy of the weather logs that were later
doctored to Kiepfer, i believe... and what did the alterations show
regarding "wind speed"??
y'see, mikey...people with a long history of forging documentation and
involving themselves in "technobabble" are calling our boys liars
WHILE THEY THEMSELVES lied about the slaughter at El Arish only 13
miles away from the Liberty:
AT BEST....To believe the Israeli account, one would have had to
believe that one incredible coincidence PILED on top of another
incredible coincidence Piled on top of yet more incredible
coincidences... you would have had to take one leap of faith AFTER
another LEAP of faith after yet more leaps of faith JUMPING THROUGH
hoop after hoop of believabilty... from butchers who were lying about
war crimes that they were committing 13 miles away AND people who had
such "flawed memories" themselves THEN went out and said our boys had
"flawed memories"
Norma, RJ and Matt, this is for you and what i did to a pro-israeli
shill named Larry Hendricks on the USNI.ORG board regarding El Arish:
http://eforum.usni.org/eforum?1...@152.jBNJaHYtbNy^3@.ee972f6
so, mikey... no one is being evasive but you(and i can say for a
certainty, that i haven't dodged any of your questions)... you kept
posting after your messages to Jim that you mentioned.... but you ran
away from me and the USNI board... and then there is that special
member of my audience who wants you to answer line-by-line:
NOW A. JAY HOOEY SAID:
> "The first and most easily identifiable marking of Liberty was her
> color. She was painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
> battleship gray.
>
> BUT TOP GUN, BRUCE CHARLES SAID:
> 1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when the color is
> a dull gray.
>
> who's correct, mikey???
If one is TRULY innocent of murder due to "self defense"... then they
shouldn't even have to tell one lie, mikey
the burden of proof in a claim of self-defense is the defendant... A.
Jay Hooey kept on carping on the courtroom argument of "that is why
hearsay evidenthh izz not allowed in a court of law"
so what is the truth?... do you see shape before you see color?
..answer that AND we can get on to the next line of the Top Gun's
missive... Forget about Bruce not being part of the IAF:
1) neither was A. Jay Hooey
2)if it is not subject to critique... then why would a "historian"
present it in writing?
3)Bruce was a fighter pilot... these were fighter pilot tactics for
the weapons released on french fighters used by the israelis
From Bottom-to-Top... the lowest land-based official at the NSA, , to
the deputy director of NSA, to the Deputy Director of the CIA to the
Director of the CIA at the time... and they confirmed the radar
jamming AND the pilots' conversations:
http://www.navalinstitute.org/proceedings/articles03/prowalsh06.htm
<<<Former NSA Officials Agree
David C. Walsh
The jamming of unique U.S. frequencies during the Liberty incident
seems to establish deliberate intent. And in exclusive interviews with
this author, several former high-level National Security Agency (NSA)
officials agree.
On 14 February 2003, the "godfather" of the NSA's Auxiliary General
Technical Research program, Oliver Kirby, noted that the Liberty was
"my baby." Within weeks of the calamity, Kirby, deputy director for
operations/production, read U.S. signals intelligence
(SigInt)-generated transcripts and "staff reports" at NSA's Fort
Meade, Maryland, headquarters. They were of Israeli pilots'
conversations, recorded during the attack. The intercepts made it
"absolutely certain" they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said. Kirby's is
the first public disclosure by a top-level NSA senior of deliberate
intent based on personal analyses of SigInt material.
In an interview on 24 February 2003, retired Air Force Major General
John Morrison, the agency's then-second-in-command (and Kirby's
successor), said he had been informed at the time of Kirby's findings
and endorsed them. Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General
William Odom said on 3 March 2003 said that, on the strength of such
data, the attack's deliberateness "just wasn't a disputed issue"
within the agency. On 5 March 2003, retired Navy Admiral Bobby Ray
Inman, NSA director from 1977-1981, said he "flatly rejected" the
Cristol/Israeli thesis. "It is just exceedingly difficult to believe
that [the Liberty] was not correctly identified." He said this was
based on his talks with NSA seniors at the time having direct
knowledge. All four were unaware of any agency official at that time
or later who dissented from the "deliberate" conclusion.>>>
> > MIKEY WROTE:
"Whatever. Take less scotch; or take more and just beam yourself
into very deep space" ...
SCOTTY FROM THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE REPLIED:"if there's a bottle of
single malt scotch out in deep space... then i'll do just that, a wee
thimbleful at a time!!!"
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.03100...@posting.google.com...
montgomery_scott
> R.J. Goldman
well, in two posts you haven't taken any dispute to the facts
presented regarding "target study" and the rocket hits on the forward
gun tubs... neither has mikey... it's a simple question, rj... what
does a fighter pilot see first?
"shape" or "color"... it's not my self-defense excuse... it's israel's
excuse
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
> R.J. Goldman
when you were in the IDF did you "laugh loudly" at the treatment of
the sephardic jews(israeli citizens)?
edify american visitors to this board... tell them about the
"apartheid" democracy... the discrimination you would have had to have
witnessed in housing, employment, and race-mixing between sephardic
jews and ashkenazi jews.
none in europe are under any delusions about the "worst that [these
ashkenazis] can do to their fellow jews. did you,rj, as an american,
"laugh loudly" when you witnessed that treatment?...
..maybe you'd like to talk about the Liberty or the slaughter at El
Arish after all, rj...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.03100...@posting.google.com...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
call races in America and Europe,
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.03100...@posting.google.com...
Mike Weeks
>Date: 10/3/2003 07:27 Pacific Daylight Time
>WELL... THAT'S VERY INTERESTING, MIKEY!!! ...
No, it's very simple little scottie -- to reasonable folks.
Your rants were no more informative on the USNI board then on the net.
Congrats.
BTW, no self-respecting USAF jet jock is going to be known as a "Top Gun" given
the term originated w/ the USN, and has been used by the navy in that regard
relating to "air-to-air" combat Last time I checked, Liberty was a ship, not
another aircraft ...
Given this supposed fixation on "color" versus "shape" (as if they are totally
separate, and equal issues for identification); guess what Toto, it has nothing
to do w/ whether the IAF attacked the ship knowing her to be US, let along
knowing her to be the USS Liberty:
<start>
1356
...
KURSA: She's running from you in the direction of El-Arish, excuse me,
Port-Said. What is it? What is it? A destroyer? a patrol boat? What is it?
MIGDAL: Kursa, can you manage to identify it?
KURSA: I can't identify it but in any case it's a military ship.
MIGDAL: Okay, what is it?
KURSA: Its has one mast and one smokestack.
MIGDAL: Roger.
KURSA: It's has one mast up front.
...
<end>
pg. 212, "The Liberty Incident."
Not sure if it's dawn on those who are clueless, but Liberty was not painted
any color which would make her stand out as other then a normal military ship
...
>BRUCE WILL TELL YOU WHERE HE HEARD THAT ACCOUNT OF THE BLACK HAWK
FIRING AND WHO HE HEARD IT FROM.
Who cares if he does or not ... I suppose it means something that now you
speak for Mr. Charles ...
So now, continue to post the old rants and any new ones if it makes you feel
important, as if it should mean anything to reasonable folks.
montgomery_scott
Your rants were no more informative on the USNI board then on the net.
Congrats.>>>
THANKS FOR THE PRAISE, MIKE WEEKS!... I'M BLUSHING!!
<<<BTW, no self-respecting USAF jet jock is going to be known as a
"Top Gun" given
the term originated w/ the USN, and has been used by the navy in that
regard
relating to "air-to-air" combat Last time I checked, Liberty was a
ship, not
another aircraft ...>>>
THAT'S MY FAULT, M'WEE BAIRN! BRUCE SENT ME THE FOLLOWING E-MAIL TO
CORRECT MY ERRORS...THEY WERE MY ERRORS AND MINE ALONE(I HAVE NO
MILITARY EXPERIENCE---"TOP GUN" INDEED WOULD ACCURATELY CONVEY TO ME
OR ANY LAY INDIVIDUAL HIS SKILLS and concordant ability to
intelligently address and annihilate the israeli "attack profile"
lie---which conclusively establishes that the pilots would have seen
the TRSSCOMM antenna)... i find it laughable that you of all people
talk about "self-respect"... but i've seen you run away from the
germane points to this discussion almost 5 times now...
HERE IS BRUCE'S CUURICULUM VITAE... SO TO SPEAK:
...thank you very much for the offer of the book ... but I have a copy
of the flying portion from the book, and I don't want to give that
bastard another penny of royalties! I have a copy of his PhD thesis
from which I wrote my analysis. Damn nice of you to offer.
Also, I will try to correct some terminology:
I had never heard of a "'Top Gun" school until the movie. I was not
an instructor at the Navy school.
The Air Force had a "Fighter Weapons School" which, I believe, was
originally founded/commanded by Boots Blesse, a double ace from Korea
and commander of the Gunfighter wing of F-4s at Danang in '67-'68.
Boots was my class commander in F-4 training at Davis Monthan AFB. I
was offered Fighter Weapons School and Weapons Test in 1969 and 1970,
but I had decided that Vietnam and our "civilian" leadership left
something to be desired so I departed active service. Boots wrote "No
Guts, No Glory."
I was my squadron's "Top Gun" and retired some of the trophys by
winning them five times in a row. I set an all-time academic record
while training at Davis Monthan. I have about 150 test flights in the
F-100. I flew fighters for 10 years: '66 to '76. I flew and led
some "White House" missions.
After I left active service, I was a "part time ... weekend warrior"
airborne instructor in fighter weapons and tactics at the Air Guard
training site in Tucson, Arizona (F-100s). While there, I was part of
a team that shot it out with the Air Force's best A-7 drivers with
their new attack aircraft with all the electronic magic, and soundly
beat them with our very old, seat-of-the-pants F-100Cs. The Arizona
Air Guard was a pet of Barry Goldwater, and probably had the finest
collection of fighter pilots in the world at the time (I was very
lucky to be admitted to the fraternity)...some of the guys were true
living legends. I also was a part time instructor with the Arkansas
Guard in 1974 (F-100s) and a part time instructor with the Oklahoma
Air Guard (F-100s) as I moved around the US with my civilian employer.
It is accurate to say that I was a "Top Gun" and that I was "an
instructor in fighter weapons and tactics."
SO AGAIN, MIKEY... THE ERROR WAS MINE AND MINE ALONE... you see,
mikey... nothing furtive... nothing evasive.... we've got an audience,
mikey... it's my credibilty with THEM that is important... if
something i say or write is in error... i'm going to get "out in front
of" the issue/error and address it right away... "succinctly" and
"honestly"...
...unlike you, cristol and now my new friend, RJ
<<<Given this supposed fixation on "color" versus "shape" (as if they
are totally separate, and equal issues for identification); guess what
Toto, it has nothing to do w/ whether the IAF attacked the ship
knowing her to be US, let along knowing her to be the USS Liberty:>>>
NOW, YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN, M'WEE BAIRN.... this is EXACTLY what i was
talking about in terms of your "lack of candor" and "evasiveness"...
the "fixation" was not on "color" vs. "shape"... the offer(still
posted on the usni board for alllll t'see, m'wee bairn) INITIALLY was
to have you engage in EXACTLY the SAME conduct that you engaged on the
USNI board... and that offer still stands...
...but you didn't... you ran away...
..."cut and paste" and then subsequently respond to the ENTIRE Top
Gun's missive... line-by-line... paragraph-by-paragraph... just as you
had done with all of the other USNI posts that you had responded to...
"the attack profile for the weapons released" lie is the "pillar"...
it is the "cornerstone"... the "keystone"... the "foundation" to the
"mistaken identity" thesis... one can have a "million congressional
investigations" but ....
...successfully knock out that "pillar" of the "attack profile for
weapons released" lie and it is "murder"... murder of wee lads barely
in their twenties.
I CLEARLY STATED TO "PRO-FORMA NORMA" that because of your prior
evasiveness... one meber of my special audience wanted to feed you
what i called "bite-sized pieces of haggis"
...and you've run 4 times on this newsgroup here... but on the 5th
time when you realize that i've assembled the internet equivalent of
an audience, WHO both "cognitively" and "experientally" are capable of
understanding the nuances of what bruce wrote about FAR BETTER THAN
I,AS A LAY INDIVIDUAL, COULD UNDERSTAND and further suffixing it with
one point of their own(william green's "world guide to combat
planes(volume1) 1967" cited in cristol's book...
...then and only then, do you realize that you better stop your flight
and at least try to punch your way out of the "paper bag" that the
government of israel placed you in...
...but "rolling over and playing dead" is probably not the right
tactic,big guy!...
we'll get to the "target study" and TRSSCOMM moon bounce antenna,
eventually... line-by-line... paragraph-by-paragraph...
...but when you begin citing as an "authority" a bunch of evasive
"pukes"(the IDF butchers at El Arish who had "flawed memories" of
whether their mirage fighters did or didn't first attempt to ID the
Liberty(Yitzhak Rabin statement) and going to a second evasive puke's,
"The Liberty Incident" for the alleged transcripts of what was said...
it doesn't make a prima facie response... two "wrongs" don't make a
"right" ... and two "pukes" don't make a "pontiff";...
to wit,m'wee bairn... we're sticking to what the mechanics(dynamic) of
the attack profile and the rocket hits on the forward gun tubs provide
us in the way of information as to whether the attacking israeli
mirage fighter had identified the ship as american... not on the basis
of a US Flag that was supposedly hanging limp on the supposedly
windless mediterranean sea... but on that TRSSCOMM antenna that the
supposedly cluelees bruce charles said was"100 times the size and 1000
times the significance" from a fighter pilot's standpoint in relation
to "target study"
so to the "color" vs. "shape" issue... i have you down as giving the
ANTITHESIS of the fighter pilot equivalent of the "Brown v Board of
Education(1952)" reply striking down the "separate but equal" factors:
<<<< Given this supposed fixation on "color" versus "shape" (as if
they are totally separate, and equal issues for identification); guess
what Toto, it has nothing to do w/ whether the IAF attacked the ship
knowing her to be US, let along>>>>
SPLENDID! now as the original challenge on the USNI board and the 4
challenges on this newsgroup... i can correctly say that you maintain
that Cristol was correct AND charles was wrong?...you're waffling
here, laddie!!!... norma wanted y'to have a picnic w'Eugene Kent on th
El Arishh discussion... have a picnic w'scotty and i'll feed y'your
waffles!!!
<<<< Not sure if it's dawn on those who are clueless, but Liberty was
not painted any color which would make her stand out as other then a
normal military ship>>>
...well, in those waters.. on that clear sunlit, fogless day... the
only other ships were israeli... israel enjoyed air supremacy.. the
war was over except for the last piece or two of land-grabbing and the
slaughter of a few hundred Egyptian POWs 13 miles away...i mean, what
the heck?? plenty of time to identify the basically unarmed ship....
...i mean, look at the 7X50 gun sight diagrams in cristols book...
even accepting the israeli lie about the attack profile... in BOTH of
those gun sight re-creations you see that big TRSSCOMM antenna AND you
DON'T see any guns capable of bombarding El Arish...
as Top Gun, charles said, "if egypt had had one of those types
of[TRSCOMM] ships in their inventory it would have been a "day one"
priority target... thus the negative is also clear, the israeli
fighters knew they were attacking americans"
SO FROM EITHER THE CREW and YITZHAK RABIN'S ACCOUNTS as to the attack
profile for the weapons released... or the lie in the revisionist
account by cristol with those 7X50 gun sight diagrams in "the Liberty
Incident"... you're caught "six ways to sunday" in a lie... both show
the TRSSCOMM and both show no guns...
we'll get to the TRSSCOMM "target study" eventually...but now to the
next line of the Top Gun's missive:
A.Jay Hooey said:
P.226 Cristol states: "The first and most easily
identifiable marking of Liberty was her color. She was
painted gray. Sometimes the color is referred to as
battleship gray. The color clearly marked her as a
warship and she was in a war zone."
Charles' Answer:
1) You see shape before you see color -- especially when
the color is a dull gray.
2) "Battleship Gray" has long been available as
"surplus" at your friendly "ARMY-NAVY" store and more
commercial fishing boats, tramp steamers, and assorted
duck boats have been painted with this "surplus" color
than have "Warships."
3) "Warships" are identified by Fighter Pilots by those
really big sticky-outie cylindrical long pole-like
things poking out sort-of horizontally from boxes on
top of the boat. I think they are called "guns."
Without big guns, I think they are called
"non-combatants."
THER Y'GO MIKEY... I'VE DONE THE "CUTTING AND PASTING" FOR YOU... HALF
OF THE WORK YOU DID ON THE USNI BOARD HAS BEEN DONE FOR YOU... I JUST
NEED YOUR RESPONSE
<<<<<BRUCE WILL TELL YOU WHERE HE HEARD THAT ACCOUNT OF THE BLACK HAWK
FIRING AND WHO HE HEARD IT FROM.>>>>>
> Who cares if he does or not ... I suppose it means something that now you
> speak for Mr. Charles ...
You're the one who cared when y'brought the issue up in the first
place and then posted the hyperlink that stood in contradiction...
are you syaing now that you ACTUALLY were faced with him re-stating
who it ACTUALLY was who the "person who was very familiar with the
incident" and whether your hyperlinked quote actually amounted to "a
hill of beans" you're now going to "take another sonny liston type
dive"... and charles's writings speak for themselves... i've annotated
what a lay individual found important... FYI... he complimented me on
that in his first email to me...
...but it DOES "mean something", mikey... jim e. had that bruce
charles article sitting around from 1998 or 1999... it wuzz me who
realized bruce's simple explanation CAUGHT israel in a lie... and the
"lie" was the "pillar" of the "mistaken identity" thesis... Jim put
that in the LVA web site at my suggestion...
>So now, continue to post the old rants and any new ones if it makes
you feel
> important, as if it should mean anything to reasonable folks.
>
> MW
accch!! m'wee bairn... why would y'say that i'm ranting,laddie??? this
old scot is as happy as a pig in the mud!!!
>So now, continue to post the old rants and any new ones if it makes
you feel
> important, as if it should mean anything to reasonable folks.
>
> MW
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N.
Luttwak
except when the "fog of war" weather conditions are CAVU & sun high...
you enjoy "air supremacy" and are conducting "mop up" operations on
land... your intelligence services know that the El Quesir was docked
in Alexandria... the sea is calm... the USS Liberty is the only
non-israeli ship in the area ...
..the NSA officials confirmed the Liberty's radio signals were being
jammed, mikey... and IT is the NSA transcripts of the attacking
pilots' conversations that the land-based NSA official in charge of
the USS Liberty's mission, Oliver Kirby talked about to USNI article
author, David Walsh that I want to see.
old men preparing to die and wanting to clear their consciences
ESPECIALLY once they read "The Liberty Incident" and saw a bunch of
Israeli murderers call Jim and Joe "antisemites" for coming to the
defense of 34 murdered comrades unable to rise from the grave to
defend their own memories and blameless conduct...
...in the words of that wee spinach-eating sailor..."that's all they
could stands and thay couldn't stands no more"...
..stupid....STUPID ...stupid!! move in deciding to publish "The
Liberty Incident".... stupid, STUPID, stupid move in releasing the
most worthless of transcripted helicopter pilot conversations this
past june by the NSA..
Montgomery Scott
Chief Engineer
Starship Enterprise
and now ostensibly:
primero "butt monkey" to pro-israeli shill, RJ Goldman
(i won't quit posting till his needs are met)
mic...@aol.comnojunk (Mike Weeks) wrote in message news:<20031003165009...@mb-m05.aol.com>...
rgol...@bellsouth.net
convention!! He and don Ocean have a lot in common..
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"montgomery_scott" <montgomery...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bc2b278.0310...@posting.google.com...
montgomery_scott
More bullshit ranting for the paint chip dope smoking reject from a
trekkie convention!
SCOTTY FROM THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE REPLIES:
I knew you were in cahoots with my ex-wife--- only she could have
given you information that precise, m'wee bairn!!! ;) LOL!!!
RJ... I knew that despite all of your shortcomings, insults and
"rantings" there had to be a reason that i was growing so fond of you,
...(mainly.. your inability to use your computer operating systems's
"cut and paste" functions to point out the supposedly offending
comments to quietly discuss the seminal issue of the Liberty attack
and the concomitant slaughter 13 miles away at El Arish)
FIRST PIECE OF EVIDENCE on the intentional nature of the murder of the
crew of the USS Liberty:
On page 301 of his newly-released book,"A Look Over My Shoulder" he
states that the final report submitted to him by the CIA Board of
Inquiry determined that the attack on the USS Liberty was
intentional...
...so for those carping about the production of evidence--- here it
is. I'd refer you to that final report OR to Director Helms's book
which states that the attack was deliberate.
The fact that the CIA Director at the time states that such a report
exists means that that report is evidence... Israel knew they were
attacking a US NAVAL vessel... not an Egyptian Horse carrier.
SECOND PIECE OF EVIDENCE look past the bibliography and go to the
highlighted text box at this site( the United States Naval Institute
is the "conservative(not "liberal")" voice of the Naval Officer Corps:
http://www.navalinstitute.org/proceedings/articles03/prowalsh06.htm
If one truly thought they were attacking an Egyptian Horse carrier
then the Israelis should have jammed EGYPTIAN NAVAL FREQUENCIES,right?
USNI author, David Walsh for the first time has gotten the NSA
officials in charge of the Liberty's mission to allow their names to
be used in connection with the Israelis jamming AMERICAN NAVAL
frequencies...
If anyone wants, we could ask the USNI editors and USNI author, David
Walsh if they STILL stand behind their story on the radio jamming AND
that Oliver Kirby and others were the one who confirmed it to USNI
author, David Walsh
we could ask the USNI editor as a group under the "code of ethics" of
editors and journalists?
do we really need to? Helms's staement on p.301 of his book is
dispositive.
this was murder. THEY MURDERED OUR LADDIES AND THEN CALLED THEM LIARS
AND ANTISEMITES.
this was a war crime.
IS THAT ENOUGH EVIDENCE?
1)THE CIA DIRECTOR'S STATEMENT?
2)THE CONFIRMATIONS PROVIDED BY THE NSA OFFICIALS IN CHARGE OF THE
LIBERTY'S MISSION?
Do the people who have been carping about motive and the production of
evidence want the rest of us as a group to ask the USNI editor if he
stands behind their story as it pertains to Oliver Kirby and other top
NSA oficials confirming the radio jamming???
<rgol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<RlGfb.180$Sn1...@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
al953
<rgol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:V0Tdb.9197$T65...@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> the people in this group on a whole are a bunch of freaking jokes... the
> ones that are not know this and I know them but the rest of them like you
> are a worthless collection of tin foil morons
>
> -- The only freaking joke is you, you lying zionazi sack of shit!
> "I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
> R.J. Goldman
>
> http://www.usidfvets.com
> "Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
> news:3F781C52...@amerion.com...
> >
> >
> > rgol...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Here in Miami. afraid of this Goldman (Cousin to Ron) but
> trained,,,,,,,,,,
> > > wanna try me douche bag?
> >
> > What the ????????? Are you losing it Goldman? I didn't see a challenge
> > in that statement....And There are a least a dozen folks on this NG
> > that handle that quite easily. Keep in mind ...Ain't none of us are
> > Pali"s
> > that will take being pushed around. So settle down and go back to your
> > lying propagandizing murderous AntiGentileZionNazi-ism!!
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
> > > R.J. Goldman
> > >
> > > http://www.usidfvets.com
> > > "lazimodo @gosympatico.ca>" <lazimodo<nospam> wrote in message
> > > news:OQMdb.17092$Ej.24...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> > > >
> > > > "al953" <al...@xyz.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:SPDdb.156374$0v4.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > The irrefutable facts are: The Isrealis intentionally attacked the
> USS
> > > > > Liberty & planned to blame the Eygptians. Things did not work out
as
> > > > > planned. Period!!!
> > > > > Gold man, you are a lying sack of zionazi shit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <rgol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ep34b.1190$L6....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > USS Liberty Slanders (1)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most conspiracies hang together by a belabored psycho-social
> paranoid
> > > > > > analysis. The conspiracy theory that Israel's attack on the USS
> > > Liberty
> > > > in
> > > > > > 1967 was "intentional" is a slanderous fabrication.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are always those who will believe these conspiracy
theories
> > > > because
> > > > > > they want to, because they have prejudices which make them
> vulnerable
> > > to
> > > > > > these false allegations and no amount of logic or denial will
ever
> > > > > convince
> > > > > > them otherwise. This essay is not for them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This lie about Israel being intentionaly culpable for the death
of
> > > > > Americans
> > > > > > is nothing less than a continued slander of a whole people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The U.S. Liberty was on an intelligence gathering mission and
> James
> > > > Ennis,
> > > > > > who wrote the book that damned Israel for the attack was also a
> crypto
> > > > > > officer on the U.S.S. Liberty. That doesn't however, place him
in
> a
> > > > better
> > > > > > position to know what was _intended_ by the Israelis. That kind
of
> > > > > > intelligence was not available electronicly, but only through
> > > > > reconstructing
> > > > > > the events that preceeded the attack. And, members of the crew
who
> > > were
> > > > > > quoted in Ennis' book had their perceptions reinforced by their
> > > position
> > > > > as
> > > > > > players in this tragic drama. Their positions were emotional and
> > > > > > reactionary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The attack on the USS Liberty was tragic, but the Liberty was
> > > mistakenly
> > > > > > identified as an Egyptian supply vessel. The Liberty and the
> El-Quesir
> > > > > > resembled each other. They had a similar deck line. the bridge
> > > structure
> > > > > was
> > > > > > in mid-ship for both of them. A single smokestack was in
mid-ship.
> The
> > > > > > Liberty's antennae on the aft and fore decks resembled
El-Quseir's
> > > > masts.
> > > > > > The antennae on the Liberty's fore deck also resembled a gun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are three parts here with sufficient details to refute any
> false
> > > > > > claims that the attack on the USS Liberty was malicious. The
> attack
> > > was
> > > > > the
> > > > > > unintended result of the heat of battle and a tragic mistake.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is first of all here, a description of the event as
> published in
> > > > > "The
> > > > > > Boats of Cherbourg" (pg 68-69) 1988, by Abraham Rabinovich, a
> senior
> > > > > feature
> > > > > > writer for the Jerusalem Post, and a foreign correspondent.
There
> are
> > > > then
> > > > > > several other quotes which follow this one. Then there is my
> > > evaluation
> > > > > and
> > > > > > following that are several addendums, which include other
analysis
> and
> > > > > some
> > > > > > recent disclosures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Unknown to the Israelis, the vessel had sailed into the war
zone
> on
> > > > June
> > > > > 8,
> > > > > > the fourth day of the war, to monitor battlefield
communications.
> On
> > > > that
> > > > > > day, naval headquarters in Haifa ordered three torpedo boats to
> sail
> > > > from
> > > > > > Ashdod harbor to check reports that El Arish, captured by the
army
> > > three
> > > > > > days before was being shelled from the sea. The explosions and
> smoke
> > > in
> > > > El
> > > > > > Arish had in fact been caused by an Egyptian ammunition dump
that
> > > > > detonated.
> > > > > > However, as the torpedo boats approached the area, their radar
> picked
> > > up
> > > > a
> > > > > > target to the west, moving away from El Arish. Presuming it to
be
> an
> > > > > > Egyptian warship, naval headquarters called for an air strike to
> slow
> > > up
> > > > > the
> > > > > > seemingly fleeing vessel."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Two Mirages were directed to the area, and the lead pilot
> reported
> > > > > 'seeing
> > > > > > no flag'. The ship had two guns on the forecastle and was
clearly
> not
> > > > > > Israeli. Liberty crewmen would firmly maintain afterward that
the
> > > > American
> > > > > > flag was being flown, but the Mirage pilot's report was taken at
> navy
> > > > > > headquarters as confirmation that the ship was an Egyptian
vessel
> > > trying
> > > > > to
> > > > > > reach Port Said. Ordered to attack, the planes set the vessel
> afire
> > > with
> > > > > > strafing runs. The smoke thickened when another plane dispatched
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > scene dropped a napalm bomb on the Liberty's deck."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From an article in The Jerusalem Report (November 1991), by
Hirsh
> > > > Goodman,
> > > > > > "Yes, there was doubt as to the identify of the ship. One of the
> > > pilots
> > > > > > identified it as a Russian vessel during the course of the
attack,
> > > > > bringing
> > > > > > the cabinet into emergency session. This fear was quickly
> dispelled.
> > > And
> > > > > > yes, there still remains controversy about whether or not there
> was an
> > > > > > American flag visible at the time of the attack. But while some
> > > mystery
> > > > > > remains, the truth is now basically known: The incident was a
> tragic
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > > marked by serious errors of judgement on both sides, complicated
> by
> > > the
> > > > > fog
> > > > > > and urgency of war and compounded by an almost childish rivalry
> > > between
> > > > > the
> > > > > > air force and the navy as to who would grab the prize: sinking
> what
> > > was
> > > > > > genuinely thought to be an Egyptian ship shelling Israeli forces
> at El
> > > > > Arish
> > > > > > from the sea."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Goodman goes on to write: "Mistakes are not uncommon in war. The
> day
> > > > > before
> > > > > > the Liberty was attacked, Israeli warplanes bombed and strafed
an
> > > > Israeli
> > > > > > armored column near Jenin in the West Bank. During the Lebanese
> war,
> > > in
> > > > > June
> > > > > > 1982, over 20 Israeli servicemen were killed when a Phantom jet
> pilot
> > > > > > mistakenly identified Israeli tanks as Syrian. In May 1987, in
the
> > > Gulf,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > USS Stark was accidentally hit by Iraqi warplanes, killing 37
> > > > servicemen.
> > > > > An
> > > > > > Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by an over-anxious
> American
> > > > > > battleship crew in May 1988, killing all 290 passengers on
board.
> So
> > > it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > with the Liberty, an American spy ship, that should not have
been
> > > where
> > > > it
> > > > > > was, when it was."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Goodman says, "there are many open questions: Why a message from
> the
> > > > U.S.
> > > > > > Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS message 072230Z) directing the ship
to
> > > remain
> > > > > at
> > > > > > least 20 miles off the Egyptian coast was delayed for 14 hours
and
> > > why,
> > > > > when
> > > > > > it was finally transmitted, it was sent in error to the Naval
> > > > > Communication
> > > > > > Center in the Philippines. Why a second crucial message from the
> Joint
> > > > > > Chiefs drafted at 2.00 a.m. on the morning of June 8, exactly 12
> hours
> > > > > > before the ship was attacked, ordering the Liberty to steam at
> least
> > > 100
> > > > > > miles from the coast was lost as well." He says had the message
> > > (080917)
> > > > > > "been received, there would have been no Liberty incident."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James M. Ennes, Jr, was the crypto specialist and Deck Officer
of
> the
> > > > USS
> > > > > > Liberty wrote an article for Electronics Defense Magazine in
1981.
> The
> > > > > title
> > > > > > of his article was: " Israeli Attack on U.S. Ship Reveals
Failure
> of
> > > C3"
> > > > > in
> > > > > > which he says: The United States made several serious, almost
> frantic
> > > > > > attempts to move the ship. As the Liberty approached Gaza, the
> Joint
> > > > > Chiefs
> > > > > > of Staff first sent a priority message ordering the ship to move
> 20
> > > > miles
> > > > > > from the coast; the message was swamped by higher precedence
> traffic
> > > and
> > > > > was
> > > > > > not processed until long after the crisis had ended. Hours
later,
> a
> > > JCS.
> > > > > > duty officer phoned naval headquarters in London to relay an
> urgent
> > > JCS
> > > > > > order to move the ship 100 miles from the coast; the telephone
> call
> > > was
> > > > > > ignored, and Liberty's copy of the confirming message was
> misrouted to
> > > > the
> > > > > > Philipines before being returned to the Pentagon, where it was
> again
> > > > > > misrouted, this time to Fort Meade in Maryland, where it was
> lost." By
> > > > the
> > > > > > way, I have also been a crypto specialist at JCS (early 60s) and
> I'm
> > > > > > familiar with their procedures and on the job difficulties -
which
> > > > > > occasionally result in errors and mistakes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In that article he goes on to say, "Eventually, at least six
> critical
> > > > > > messages were lost, delayed, or otherwise mishandled. Any one of
> those
> > > > > > messages might have saved Liberty. None reached the ship."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rabinovich writes: "The son of Admiral Erell, Udi was an ensign
> aboard
> > > > one
> > > > > > of the torpedo boats. He could see the smoke from a long
distance
> as
> > > the
> > > > > > boats raced at top speed toward the scene. As the vessel came
into
> > > view,
> > > > > > Erell's skipper scanned an identification book containing
pictures
> of
> > > > the
> > > > > > ships in the Arab fleets and consulted with the commanders on
the
> > > other
> > > > > > boats. The squadron commander concluded that the ship was the
> Egyptian
> > > > > > supply vessel el Quseir. Ensign Erell, looking over his
skipper's
> > > > shoulder
> > > > > > at the picture and glancing up at the burning vessel, fully
> agreed,
> > > even
> > > > > > though he would later recall that the mast in the picture was
not
> > > > > positioned
> > > > > > identically with the mast of the target vessel...."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Nevertheless, the squadron commander sought to confirm the
> vessel's
> > > > > > identity before attacking. When the Israeli signalman flashed
the
> > > > message
> > > > > > "What ship?" Udi Erell saw the response flickering through the
> smoke
> > > > four
> > > > > > miles away---"AAA", the signal meaning "Identify yourself
first."
> The
> > > > same
> > > > > > signal had been flashed, the Israelis were aware, by the
Egyuptian
> > > > > destroyer
> > > > > > challenged off Haifa during the Sinai Campaign in 1956.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Americans on the bridge of the Liberty would later state that
the
> > > > signals
> > > > > > flashed were the ship's name and its international call sign,
not
> what
> > > > the
> > > > > > Israelis believed they saw. Even with binoculars, Erell could
make
> out
> > > > *no
> > > > > > flag*. The sqaudron commander ordered his boats to commence
> torpedo
> > > > > attacks.
> > > > > > The vessels peeled off to make their runs and fired five
torpedos.
> > > Only
> > > > > one
> > > > > > hit home. The boats raked the burning ship, now dead in the
water,
> > > with
> > > > > > their guns."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Fire was halted when one of the officers reported seeing the
> > > > > identification
> > > > > > markings CTR-5 on the ship's hull, markings that were not those
of
> an
> > > > Arab
> > > > > > vessel. Notified of this, Haifa ordered the sqaudron commander
to
> pick
> > > > up
> > > > > > survivors and definitely establish the ship's
> identity......Drawing
> > > > closer
> > > > > > to the burning vessel, they were able to make out a flag. It was
> not
> > > > > opened
> > > > > > by a breeze and could not immediately be identified, but it was
> > > clearly
> > > > > not
> > > > > > Egyptian...."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Udi saw a splash of red on the flag and heard a report being
sent
> > > back
> > > > to
> > > > > > Haifa that the vessel might be Russian. The report caused shock
> and
> > > > > > consternation when passed on to General Staff headquarters. The
> shock
> > > > was
> > > > > > not abated when the torpedo-spadron commander reported half an
> hour
> > > > later
> > > > > > that he had identified the vessel as American."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mitchell G. Bard and Joel Himelbarb in "Myths and Facts: A
Concise
> > > > Record
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the Arab-Israeli Conflict" write: "None of Israel's accusers has
> been
> > > > able
> > > > > > to explain adequately why Israel would have deliberately
attacked
> an
> > > > > > American ship. Confusion in a long line of communications, which
> > > > occurred
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (a
> message
> > > > from
> > > > > > the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 20
miles
> off
> > > > the
> > > > > > Egyptian coast never arrived) is a more probable explanation."
> [Unless
> > > > you
> > > > > > wish to accept one of the conspiracy theories that suggests that
> > > Israel
> > > > > > attacked the Liberty because the U.S. was passing strategic
> > > intelligence
> > > > > > information to the Arabs. Some actually believe that, but
> > > conspiracists
> > > > > will
> > > > > > grab at anything to make their argument seem more credible.]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They write: "Accidents caused by "friendly fire" are not
uncommon
> in
> > > > > > wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian
> passenger
> > > > > > plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148
> > > > Americans
> > > > > > who died in battle were killed by "friendly fire." In fact, only
> the
> > > day
> > > > > > before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally
> bombed
> > > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank." As a
> > > former
> > > > > > high-ranking Israeli naval officer, Shlomo Erell, told the
> Associated
> > > > > Press
> > > > > > (June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American
> ship
> > > > would
> > > > > > be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was.
> We
> > > were
> > > > > > advised by the proper authorities that there was no American
ship
> > > within
> > > > > 100
> > > > > > miles."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26,
> 1967:
> > > "It
> > > > > was
> > > > > > the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral
of
> the
> > > > navy
> > > > > > in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not
> > > intentional."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Continued.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > "I have seen the worst that man can do I can still laugh loudly"
> > > > > > can still laugh loudly"
> > > > > > R.J. Goldman
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.usidfvets.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003
> > > >
> > > >
>
>
Lazimodo
Cheers
Laz
"al953" <al...@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:%qOxb.124279$Ec1.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 05/12/2003
rgol...@bellsouth.net
--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman
http://www.usidfvets.com
"Lazimodo" <Lazimodo1(nospam)@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:TBxBb.8639$IF6.4...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...