Wire type for peripherals on residential burg/fire panels
Effenpig1
transformers, sirens, and of course fire devices ( and CO). I do this
whether or not the system will include fire devices initially. My
thought being if I don't and the owner decides on fire protection down
the line it would be more work.
Curious as to how other installers deal with this. The company I
worked for before I started my business never used fire wire, even for
the fire devices themselves.
Effenpig1
> One of the side things I do is Fire Investigation for Insurance
> companies.
> the very first question they ask on form they send for a failure
> analysis investigation asks. Does the system meet all codes code at
> time it was installed.
> 2nd question is would system have functioned properly had code been
> followed. 3rd question is were proper permits and inspections done.
>
> If I walk in on a system that has failed and find telco or any other
> type of wire being used for the smokes and heats etc. that would be a
> violation of NEC and NFPA -ICC
>
> You are doing the right thing. absolutely the others are leaving them
> selves exposed. and no matter how you write a contract sooner or later
> you will get popped and even if you win what it is costing in time and
> money will be horrendous.
> I got sued because an asshole customer was to lazy to check his system
> after it went off and police looked in and saw no one because they
> were in a back room breaking into the safe.
> Thank God jury saw this case for what it was but it still cost how
> many days time and money defending it.
What about wiring the keypad, siren,and transformer with FPLR on
systems with fire? How about systems without fire in case of future
add-ons, any one think either is unnecessary?
Crash Gordon
residential system....why would you want to?...because there might be one
day?
--
**Crash Gordon**
"Effenpig1" <dirtysp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e332db35-aae0-4d62...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
mleuck
wrote:
> It can't hurt, but if there's no fire detection to begin with on a
> residential system....why would you want to?...because there might be one
> day?
>
> --
> **Crash Gordon**
Thats the way I always did it
Effenpig1
wrote:
> It can't hurt, but if there's no fire detection to begin with on a
> residential system....why would you want to?...because there might be one
> day?
>
> --
> **Crash Gordon**
>
Exactly
Kid
"Crash Gordon" <webm...@siriussystems.invalid> wrote in message
news:4b2725cd$1$89869$815e...@news.qwest.net...
Frank Olson
> if there is a fire panic button on the keypad then there is fire protection.
"Fire protection" isn't a "button" you have to be awake (or on the
premises) to use. A sprinkler system is "protection". A smoke detector
is "protection".
Kid
"Frank Olson" <use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
news:0n%Wm.964$pA1...@newsfe17.iad...
no, that is detection. and if you use the fire button the fire trucks will
roll. still have to use fire wire if you use the fire button for fire
protection is all I was saying. but feel free not to and then you can tell
the inspector 'your' theory when he wants to know why you aren't within
code..
Frank Olson
Sorry. When I think of "protection" I also think "detection" (you can't
have one without the other in my book). You can't "protect" yourself
with a button (and if the system's not monitored then the trucks won't
be "rolling"). Taking your response one step further, I take it you
would consider a cell phone or land line as better "fire protection" -
you call 911 and achieve the same purpose as the button on a monitored
alarm - only you get a faster response.
In BC, residential security systems aren't considered "fire alarm
systems" so the Canadian installation standard (CAN/ULC-S524) doesn't
apply. And some alarmco's in the lower mainland don't even pull
permits. In fact they rarely install fire detection devices properly.
On many take-overs we've done, I've seen "T" tapped smokes, EOL's across
programmed fire zones IN THE CAN, four wire smokes wired using the
normally closed contacts, etc. It's a real "dogs breakfast" here.
And no one has yet been able to show me the section of NFPA that states
a security/burg system becomes a fire alarm system when you install a
smoke detector (or wire up to relay contacts on a 110VAC smoke alarm).
Effenpig1
<use_the_email_li...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote:
> Kid wrote:
> > "Frank Olson" <use_the_email_li...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
So is it your opinion that it is not-necessary to use fire wire for
anything other than the detection devices themselves?
Dogs breakfast ????? Is that a poo reference?
jewellfish
>
> - Show quoted text -
NEC70, Article 760 allows for the substitution of CMP and similiar for
use in fire alarm systems unless local codes prevent it.
Regards,
Jewellfish
Crash Gordon
fire systems don't provide protection...detection yes.
is there code on this?
--
**Crash Gordon**
"Kid" <k...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:4b277cf7$0$8227$c5fe...@read01.usenet4all.se...
Effenpig1
wrote:
> how would using fire wire on a keypad be considered fire "protection" ? most
> fire systems don't provide protection...detection yes.
>
> is there code on this?
>
> --
> **Crash Gordon**
>
> "Kid" <k...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:4b277cf7$0$8227$c5fe...@read01.usenet4all.se...
>
> > if there is a fire panic button on the keypad then there is fire
> > protection.
>
> >news:4b2725cd$1$89869$815e...@news.qwest.net...
> >> It can't hurt, but if there's no fire detection to begin with on a
> >> residential system....why would you want to?...because there might be one
> >> day?
>
> >> --
> >> **Crash Gordon**
>
I would think only sprinkler systems and the like would be protection.
Effenpig1
> >news:0n%Wm.964$pA1...@newsfe17.iad...
> And no one has yet been able to show me the section of NFPA that states
> a security/burg system becomes a fire alarm system when you install a
> smoke detector (or wire up to relay contacts on a 110VAC smoke alarm).
I don't think the NFPA decides. I believe the manufacturer decides
whether the panel is a burg or fire/burg listed panel depending on
what is hooked up to it.
For example, I use GE Concord panels
To become UL 1023 Household burglary alarm system unit listing I have
to connect at least one wired or wireless contact and change some
programming
For UL985 Household fire warning system listing I have to connect at
least one wired or wireless smoke detector and change some
programming.
JoeRaisin
Wouldn't there be a difference between fire protection equipment and
life/safety equipment?
The way the discussion has gone has left me confused - would a pull
station be fire protection or life/safety? Would it make a difference
whether it triggered a suppression system, audio-visual alarm or both?
Effenpig1
Not only that, but 760-61 (b) exception 2 states FLP can be
substituted for FPLR in 1 and 2 family dwellings for . 760-61 (table-
d) shows that CM can be substituted for FPL. Every standard 22/2 and
22/4 burg wire I've ever used carried at least a CM rating.
So in reality, it would seem just about any standard CM wire is fine
for fire devices in residential 1 and 2 family dwellings ( as long as
you stay out of ducts and plenums).
I'm still sticking with FPL or FPLR, don't have to worry about where I
can and can't run it, and people are less likely to mess with red wire
( I hope).
Robert L Bass
news:18bdb3c4-3c12-471c...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Robert L Bass
>
> For residential burg I use 18 gauge FPLR to wire keypads,
> transformers, sirens, and of course fire devices (and CO).
IMO that's a wise decision. the cost increment is miniscule and it allows you
to easily offer additional protection at a later date.
On multi-level prewires we used to do that plus we would also run spare
multi-pair drops from attic and garage to basement utility (or wherever the
panel would go).
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==============================>
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DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
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==============================>
Frank Olson
> So is it your opinion that it is not-necessary to use fire wire for
> anything other than the detection devices themselves?
I have no opinion either way. You're obviously in the US and subject to
a different set of codes and standards. Personally, I would go with
what your local AHJ orders (or suggests) to satisfy both your and your
insurance company's piece of mind (and get that in writing).
>
> Dogs breakfast ????? Is that a poo reference?
Nope. That comes from "the other end".
Robert L Bass
Robert L Bass
>
> I have no opinion either way. You're obviously
> in the US and subject to a different set of codes
I found different AHJs often had diferrent opinions as to what was required,
especially concerning residential work. To be safe I would usually wire
keypads, sirens and strobe / horns with 18/4 FPL.