Lifesize Bronze Sculpture
Kwirl
href="http://www.bigbronze.com/">Check us out at BigBronze.com</a>. We also
provide life-size granite statuary.
-kwirl
Gary Oblock
I looked at their site and all their staff were Asians. Hmm... I wonder where
they get their stuff cast for those prices? ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
-- Gary
--
Bronze Dreams
Santa Clara, CA
http://www.bronzedreams.com
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Free Web Hosting with Domain Registration or transfer
http://freewebhosting.catalog.com/jump/mw...@earthlink.net
Kwirl
And we utilize several foundries around the world for our castings :P
"Gary Oblock" <mw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:429EA309...@earthlink.net...
Andrew Werby
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8sGne.1864$hI3....@news.uswest.net...
> Actually those are just stock images...we are based in Newark, Delaware.
>
> And we utilize several foundries around the world for our castings :P
[Somehow I doubt any of these foundries are in the US. It's odd that that
all the castings come out weighing 9999 lbs. It seems like one could turn a
handy profit buying them and melting them down for the bronze - unless
someone's fibbing....]
Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com
Kwirl
site and in the process of populating our database I didn't get a chance to
input weights on all the sculptures we have in stock in the US. so, since
the database doesn't work with non-variables, it defaulted statues without a
defined weight to 9999lbs. its a computer geek problem im working on
"Andrew Werby" <and...@computersculpture.com> wrote in message
news:TPidnTrNwrH...@comcast.com...
SL
look at all of the sculptures on the site but I did look at what you call
Reminton and Rodin sculptures.
Those are not by Remington or Rodin or even re-casts. They are awful copies
of Remington and Rodin bronzes.
Compare your "The Thinker" to the one actually done by Rodin at:
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/r/rodin/thinker.jpg
and your "The Wicked Pony" to the one actually done by Remington at:
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/r/remington/remington_wicked_pony.jpg
I'm guessing that all your sculptures are bad ripoffs. Companies like yours
give sculpture a bad name.
Steve L.
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:EiKne.37$192....@news.uswest.net...
scul...@tfb.com
these look like typical indonesian/indian/chinese products.
A big problem with many of these products are that they are actually
made of brass- the alloy used does not qualify as bronze by western
metalurgical standards.
A local town bought one of these things and it snapped at the ankles,
our local foundry tried to repair it and discovered that it was
entirely brass.
christopher
Kwirl
website? are you interested in ocean front property in north dakota? if
you bother to read the information on the products they are not remington
works, they are 'inspired by' - no where do we claim they are original
works.
also, the metal is 90% copper alloy, just like all american-cast bronze.
since our work is used in many government and federal institutions and
municipalities, it certainly seems to stand up to their standards.
don't be hating.
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:KK2dnXLScOQ...@vnet-inc.com...
George Graham
behalf you seem to be spokesman/PR or what.
However I would like to offer you some advice, in a very constructive
spirit.
Don't quote figures unless you, a) understand them and/or b) sure they are
correct.
An example, I don't know what the 'all american-cast bronze' constituants
are, but here in UK, 'bronze' used by art foundries is approx. 90% pure
copper. The other 10%, which turns the copper into an alloy is usually, Tin,
Lead, Zinc and other trace metals.
A casting, starting from the point of 90% copper alloy, once the remaining
10% goes in, I can't see being an ' official' bronze.
I would lock your door at night, you are due a visit from the government
body that deals with erroneous trades descriptions.
George
Gary Waller
> do you really think you are going to find an actual remington on a wholesale
> website? are you interested in ocean front property in north dakota? if
> you bother to read the information on the products they are not remington
> works, they are 'inspired by' - no where do we claim they are original
> works.
>
> also, the metal is 90% copper alloy, just like all american-cast bronze.
> since our work is used in many government and federal institutions and
> municipalities, it certainly seems to stand up to their standards.
>
> don't be hating.
Peace and love Kwirl.
What I want to know. If you reproduced the classics from photographs,
etc. - lets say "The Thunkeder" - Would you still have the copyright if
an American cement caster bought one, made a mold, and started cranking
out cast stone models?
Would this be the case if the work and casting was performed outside the
U.S.A.?
Always been curious on this point.
There is a market for everything, somewhere. I was once told this by the
Old Italian Plaster and Cement Caster/mason - he pointed to a dog turd
on the ground - 'See - even that turd on the ground has a market
somewhere!'. Six months later I saw in a pet supply catalog, a resincast
dog turd, realistically painted, etc. - it was sold with a slot in the
bottom to hide your door key!
Myself, I have never understood the need to purchase a poor to mediocre
piece of art, which becomes an intimate part of your family and its
culture, just because it 'was a bargain'. I do, however, see this all
the time. Some people like things of "good taste", other like things
which "taste good". Much of the 'good taste' fine art sold today is
bought on the advice of art consultants. Curiously, the only year I
watched "Survivor" the most despised person on the show - ever- was an
art consultant. He even lied about his grandmother's death to win a reward!
gary
vancouver
scul...@tfb.com
Remington.
Good copies are those where molds are actually pulled from a real
Remington.
Even better copies are made when you SCAN a real Remington and correct
the data file for casting attentuation before outputting a master for
production moldmaking.
Pretty good copies are those where a sculptor of some merit has
meticulously created a replica by pouring over detailed photography of
a Remington.
The work I saw on the website looked amatuerish, stiff, and very poorly
realized.
The "thinker" appears to be wearing a wig, and has some kind of weird
extra ribs or unusually repititious rolls of skin... Basically this is
the kind of poor technique that I often am sent to China to try and
teach the sculptors there NOT to do.
Further, do not warranttee the purity of bronzes made in foundries in
Asia.
Asian foundries are notorious for selling a project based upon a good
sample, and then, once the order comes in, substituting inferior
materials to make a better margin on their end.
There may be a few that are on the up and up, but when you are cutting
pricing to the lowest possible dollar, there is always the temptation
for them to swap alloys.
In any event, if you do not personally control the metalurgy at the
foundry, I would recommend against any public representations of the
actual make up of your metal.
Finally, this newsgroup is peopled with folks trying their best to eek
out a living as sculptors. None of us is going to be particularly
welcoming to a company that is importing extremely substandard and
cheesy looking bronzes and flooding the market with mediocrity at
prices that domestic artists can not hope to compete with.
None of us are in this for the whopping amount of cash... we are in it
for a love of art and creating and the respect we have for the impact
meaningful art can have on society.
It is hard enough to make a living as an artist without having
companies like yours lowering expectations and realizations to a third
world level of sophistication much less a third wolrd level of economy.
christopher
PS- to Gary- it is not possible to meaningfully copyright a work that
is, itself, a replica of a work whose copyrights have run out. Even an
entirely new sculpture, made independantly from any Remington, is not
copyright protected if it is a rendition of a Remington design and
carries the same title as the Remington design.
Any resculpted Remington may have a mold pulled from it and copies made
by anyone without violating copyright law.
SL
Ya got me! I've got a deal for you.
Would you consider trading a few of your Remingtons for my Mona Lisa?
Here's a picture: http://www.sculptmontana.com/mona-lisa.jpg
Since a Da Vince is way more valuable than a Remington I'd like at least 4.
Steve L.
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ps0oe.19$RQ3....@news.uswest.net...
Gary Oblock
Metallurgically speaking bronze is a brass. However when Christopher refers to bronze he
means any of a class of copper alloys that are durable and suitable for sculpture
(which obviously the one in the town square wasn't). In modern practice that means
silicon bronze. If your standard for bronze is that it is a 90% copper alloy then that is
totally meaningless because this is a huge set of potential alloys many of which would
be useless for sculpture. If you wish to be a reasonable supplier of off shore bronze
statuary (frankly, as a American sculptor, I hope you keep doing what you're currently
doing) then you should have, at minimum, a set of acceptable silicon bronze alloys that
your foundries must comply with. I think anything less would be dubious. Think of
it this way. You buy something advertised as stainless steel and leave it out in the
rain only to find that it rusts. Is it fair that the seller had their own private definition of
stainless steel?
-- Gary Oblock
SL
You are absolutely correct. The most common bronze for art casting is
called everdur. Also known as 95-4-1. Because it contains 95% Copper, 4%
Silicon and
1% Manganese.
There is more detailed information on it at:
http://www.atlasmetal.com/a87300.htm
Another that is used is herculoy: http://www.atlasmetal.com/a87610.htm
Copper 92%
Silicon 4%
Zinc 4%
Antique bronzes contain a mixture of copper and tin but I don't know the
proportions.
I use everdur mainly because it accepts a patina better because it doesn't
have zinc. Herculoy is a little more mallable.
Steve L.
"Gary Oblock" <mw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42A11812...@earthlink.net...
George Graham
it consisted of Copper, plus Tin 11.32%; Lead 0.05% Zinc 0.03% Phosphor
0.74% Silicon 0.03%
Aluminium 0.3%. There are a few other trace materials.
When I first started work on the material, I was surprised how hard it was
and how quick it blunted chisels and rotary bits.
The foundry does very large figures etc, about 10 ft high, most of their
work goes outside in fairly corrosive atmospheres, eg. middle of towns, at
busy junctions or out on hills in rain and wet parts of the country.
I would like your comments on the material as it varies greatly from the
formulaes previously mentioned?
George
SL
That's very interesting. I've never heard of the bronze your foundry uses.
It sounds like it works fine though. Since I'm used to everdur, I probably
won't try it unless I decide to try it on something large that goes outdoors
the way the foundry you use does.
I appreciate your telling me about it.
Steve L.
"George Graham" <g...@bassrockgalleryminusplus.net> wrote in message
news:42a16420$0$1701$ed2e...@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
Henri
I not long ago , a year or so had this experience with casting from a
Chinese foundry....
I sent the wax to them,,,,
They cast the pieces pretty inexpensively, you can see the piece here, They
actually did a nice job casting.. HOWEVER...........
http://www.geocities.com/hank33161/JesusHand.html
the problems were...
I was told I would get ten of them all in individual boxes. I said okay
because the sample looked like it was a real nice cast. Well,,
I ordered ten
I got eight.
of the eight only about 4 were any good after I put another patina on them
and straightened up the nail which was all crocked.
I did not have a good time dealing with them,, they constantly try to change
the price on you and you have to tell them " no",,, and I am even glad I did
not order more because now I know from reading this Newsgroup my next batch
would have been cast in copper. ;)
I won't deal with them again. I am casting my own next time.
snip.....
> Further, do not warranttee the purity of bronzes made in foundries in
> Asia.
> Asian foundries are notorious for selling a project based upon a good
> sample, and then, once the order comes in, substituting inferior
> materials to make a better margin on their end.
>
> There may be a few that are on the up and up, but when you are cutting
> pricing to the lowest possible dollar, there is always the temptation
> for them to swap alloys.
> In any event, if you do not personally control the metalurgy at the
> foundry, I would recommend against any public representations of the
> actual make up of your metal.
snipp....
> christopher
George Graham
George
Gary Oblock
George --
It sounds more akin to the traditional bronze alloy, with tin and lead, used
for fine are casting. In the the good old days, not having rotary grinders and
welding torches, I believe that they relied on the malleability of the bronze
to fasten together the separately cast sections and to chase the bronze.
This requirement for malleability requirement dictated a high lead content
(which is frowned on because of its toxicity in modern alloys).
royta...@gmail.com
bronzes they were shipping me, having the price increase in the middle
of the job, and seeing in the photos they were sending that they were
actually casting extra copies for themselves! oops,,,all in all it was
a very unpleasant experience, they were humorless, cagey and not fun to
work with. I avoid WalMart too now.
Roy
Gary Oblock
Roy --
It takes the clout of a WalMart (with whom I will not deal) to deal successfully with
off shore manufactures. These off shore foundries are the basically the enemy of
US sculptors.
1) They swipe our work flaunting US copyright law.
2) They swamp the US market with substandard low cost sculpture undercutting us
and giving bronze sculpture a bad name.
I wish the US Government would slap a 1000% import duty on their lame crap!
Henri
also didn't realize I gave the link to the Jesus hand page. But that's what
I mean was , hand poured molten bronze,, , as opposed to cold cast resin
plastic
Henri
http://www.geocities.com/hank33161/Sculpture_Bronze.html
"George Graham" <g...@bassrockgalleryminusplus.net> wrote in message
news:42a1f204$0$3867$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
Henri
for sure!!!!!!
Henri
<royta...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117966259....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:L4ydncYjocu...@vnet-inc.com...
Billy Hiebert
> Metallurgically speaking bronze is a brass. However when Christopher refers to bronze he
> means any of a class of copper alloys that are durable and suitable for sculpture
> (which obviously the one in the town square wasn't). In modern practice that means
> silicon bronze. If your standard for bronze is that it is a 90% copper alloy then that is
> totally meaningless because this is a huge set of potential alloys many of which would
> be useless for sculpture. If you wish to be a reasonable supplier of off shore bronze
> statuary (frankly, as a American sculptor, I hope you keep doing what you're currently
> doing) then you should have, at minimum, a set of acceptable silicon bronze alloys that
> your foundries must comply with. I think anything less would be dubious. Think of
> it this way. You buy something advertised as stainless steel and leave it out in the
> rain only to find that it rusts. Is it fair that the seller had their own private definition of
> stainless steel?
Actually, there are several grades of "stainless steel" and only a
couple are actually rust resistant. --Billy
>
> -- Gary Oblock
>
> --
> Bronze Dreams
> Santa Clara, CA
> http://www.bronzedreams.com
> -------------- ad for the hosting service I use ---------------
> Free Web Hosting with Domain Registration or transfer
> http://freewebhosting.catalog.com/jump/mw...@earthlink.net
>
>
>
--
Billy Hiebert (510)654-7488
HIEBERT SCULPTURE WORKS
http://www.hieberts.com
SL
company is doing is no different than what I did. Making a bad copy of the
Mona Lisa and signing it "Da Vince" does not make it a Da Vince any more
than your company making a bad copy of a Remington and signing it
"Remington" makes it a Remington. Bad copies of famous artists work are all
over the place. They are a disgrace and the original artists would be
ashamed to have their names put on the junk. The public doesn't know any
better so they buy the stuff because of the name. Too often people see my
work and can't understand why I ask so much money for it when they can get a
Remington at Walmart for a lot less. What you sell is not art, its
misleading and should not be legal.
I'll bet you're really glad you posted your ad for BadBronze.com by now...
Steve L.
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:LRYoe.1206$%q.1...@news.uswest.net...
Kwirl
claim that the sculptures are anything other than inspirations or
reproductions. What amuses me is the arguments used to deface foreign
distributors.
"Asian sculptures are inferior in design and of a lower quality
aterial." - Because their artistic history spanning thousands of years is
no match for a greater style perfected over a 200 year period. As for the
quality of the material, we test our sculptures when they arrive in the
states, so I'd like to know where you get your statistics other than word of
mouth from artists who have supposedly purchased a bronze sculpture only to
discover it was really made of solidified Jell-O.
"Importing artwork destroys the standard of living for dozens of
hard-working artists." - And it creates hundreds of well-paying jobs in
other parts of the world. You won't get a drop of sympathy out of me,
losing my original job to outsourcing has forced me to realize that I can't
fight the way the world economy works. Adapt or be forgotten, life sucks.
And lets be honest with each other, anyone who was going to spend 50,000 on
a sculpture wasn't going to buy your work for anything but the name. If you
can't sell or market your name, don't blame us. We don't compete with
individual artists, when people ask about a specific artist's work - we send
them to that artist. What we do is provide a low cost alternative for
individuals, businesses, and communities who don't want or can not afford to
spend big money purchasing a name, when all they want is custom shaped
metal.
We work hard to make sure that we don't infringe on anyone's copyright, and
our interpretations of public-domain sculpture is just that; our
interpretation. You aren't forced to buy it or like it, we don't care. If
we discover that one of our pieces has stepped on someone's digitally
protected toes, we stop stocking that piece, and remove it from our catalog.
-kwirl
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:APedneTAm8s...@vnet-inc.com...
Kwirl
hard at work, you are boycotting lower-cost toilet paper at wal-mart.
"I used a foundry in China a few times..." with an attitude like that, I
can't imagine why they don't love you and bend over backwards to give you
everything you want as soon as you want it.
We tried working with the foundries, and we get hundreds of sculptures a
month cast in quality bronze that need nothing more than minor patina
application to take care of the long shipping voyage and they are ready for
retail. The prices are consistent, except that it fluctuates based on the
current market value if copper ingots, the primary ingredient in bronze.
I'll gamble that we do a much higher volume of product motion than you see,
and yet we have nowhere near the problems you are claiming to have
experienced. Regardless, what it boils down to is do what works for you.
Obviously, they don't like you and its a personal conspiracy. I'd write
dear abby and ask for help.
<royta...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117966259....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
scul...@tfb.com
in quantity- their pricing structures depend on volume. Individuals
ordering a few pieces can expect to be less important to their
business.
That is not to say that they are not screwing around with the alloys
to shave pennies... most will do this if they get the chance.
But the real problem is their blantant piracy and extremely poor
quality of work..
Don't you have any pride? Any sense of being involved in creating
things that have merit, beauty, and intrinsic value?
You are selling cheap sculptures created by Asian "technicians" ( I
work with these foks all the time and virtually none of them qualify as
artists)
You are capitalizing on the fact that artists here at home must work
with Western foundries to make the prices on your "products" appear
attractive. ( since no one is choosing your product for artistic
excellence )
You undercut the market of Western artists with work that is
substandard and of questionable origin.
Again- why are you bothering posting on this site? You honestly think
anyone here welcomes your business? You and your profiteering peers
are the very bane of our existence.
Unless you are trying to find better quality artists to produce decent
original works for you to manufacture... you really should not bother a
newsgroup for people dedicated to creating art.
christopher
George Graham
slipcast which involves hand pouring.
George
SL
quality
aterial."? I love well done original Asian art. I just don't like bad
ripoffs.
Steve L.
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:OF%oe.24$Ru4....@news.uswest.net...
SL
> I don't really care honestly. Like I said, at no point does the web page
> claim that the sculptures are anything other than inspirations or
> reproductions.
On your Web site I saw the heading "Classics". Under the heading I saw
"Remington", "Rodin" etc. One must have to read the fine print to see any
disclaimer. I didn't go that far. Regardless, once the "sculpture" is in
place, the viewer probably won't have his or her laptop with them connected
to the Internet so they probably won't see any disclaimer. The original
artists spent a life time developing a technique and reputation and to have
their name on something that the public sees that doesn't resemble what they
originally created is an insult to their name and reputation.
>What amuses me is the arguments used to deface foreign
> distributors.
> "Asian sculptures are inferior in design and of a lower quality
> aterial." - Because their artistic history spanning thousands of years is
> no match for a greater style perfected over a 200 year period.
Since the invention of the printing press and modern transportaiton we've
all had about the same amount of art history to draw from.
> As for the
> quality of the material, we test our sculptures when they arrive in the
> states, so I'd like to know where you get your statistics other than word
of
> mouth from artists who have supposedly purchased a bronze sculpture only
to
> discover it was really made of solidified Jell-O.
I've never said anything one way or another about your materials. I have no
idea what you use. My complaints have to do with artistic merit of copies.
> "Importing artwork destroys the standard of living for dozens of
> hard-working artists." - And it creates hundreds of well-paying jobs in
> other parts of the world. You won't get a drop of sympathy out of me,
> losing my original job to outsourcing has forced me to realize that I
can't
> fight the way the world economy works. Adapt or be forgotten, life sucks.
If your company produces original work, more power to you.
> And lets be honest with each other, anyone who was going to spend 50,000
on
> a sculpture wasn't going to buy your work for anything but the name. If
you
> can't sell or market your name, don't blame us.
You don't get it. DaVince didn't paint the Mona Lisa to sell. He caried it
with him his whole life. I think Van Gough sold only one painting in his
life. Artists don't create art to get rich. I don't care if you don't feel
sorry for me. I don't either.
>We don't compete with
> individual artists, when people ask about a specific artist's work - we
send
> them to that artist. What we do is provide a low cost alternative for
> individuals, businesses, and communities who don't want or can not afford
to
> spend big money purchasing a name, when all they want is custom shaped
> metal.
You DO compete with individual artists. People have a limited amount of
money to spend on art and once they spend it on imitation art they don't
have it to spend on the real thing.
>
> We work hard to make sure that we don't infringe on anyone's copyright,
and
> our interpretations of public-domain sculpture is just that; our
> interpretation. You aren't forced to buy it or like it, we don't care.
If
> we discover that one of our pieces has stepped on someone's digitally
> protected toes, we stop stocking that piece, and remove it from our
catalog.
Another thing your company works hard at is making a profit on deceased
artists reputations.
On a more friendly note... I read in another of your posts where you said
that you are part of the sculpture community. I would encourage you to go
the next step and try being a sculptor. You're way ahead of a lot of people
because you know the process and the marketing aspects. You could start in
evenings and weekends. You will be amazed at what it can to for you. It is
a constant brain exercise. Heck, it may reduce the chances of Alzheimer's
disease the way learning a new language does. You'll also get first hand
insight into the thought process of an artist. It's addictive. I know of a
lawyer who left his practice and wife to become an artist (painter in that
case).
Steve L.
Gary Oblock
> Wow, so because a foundry in china couldn't make you laugh because they were
> hard at work, you are boycotting lower-cost toilet paper at wal-mart.
Some of us don't care for the ethics of that corporation. I don't suppose
corporate ethics are that meaningful a concept to you? I bet you buy
everything you can from them and pay no attention to the long term social
costs? In California a study was done that concluded the tax payers were
getting stuck with the extra costs of uninsured workers every time
they opened a store and drove better paying jobs out of a community.
Do you like paying your taxes to subsidize them?
-- Gary
--
Gary Oblock
I suppose I should amend this to say I'm not trying to imply you are unethical.
However, you seem to draw the line about these issues somewhere to far right of me
and a lot of the rest of the readers of this group. If you examined the deeper implications
of your views you might just conclude that you are being used by people that are becoming
rich at your expense. When your job was outsourced why did you conclude that was a fair
thing? Job are getting shipped to countries with no labor or environmental laws and our
government ratified treaties that let it happen. Why did that happen, because it made the
people that lobbied for it filthy rich, that's why. Do you like to be used? Do you like having
these people with one hand in your pocket and the other around your throat?
Well?
-- Gary
Henri
>
> Next, No, I don't have any pride. I'm american.
Americans have pride, at least 48% of them.............
Henri
say it all. Maybe you just don't know the difference?news:hN%oe.25$Ru4....@news.uswest.net...
Kwirl
sale of that work. as of right now i can assure you that we have very
little problem selling those works, regardless of how they measure to "your"
standards.
"Henri" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3nipe.15845$QX1....@fe06.lga...
Kwirl
'categories' are used in web marketing, you will find that my use of those
terms was very appropriate given the context.
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:W_qdnaCiwrj...@vnet-inc.com...
Kwirl
eventually, if i sell out i'll crawl my way to the top. its not what i
wanted in life, but its adapt or be fucked. i'm 26 years old, no credit,
and no college education. i'll do what i have to do to make a living
Kwirl
scul...@tfb.com
So now we find you're a salesman for these mediocrities...
Whatever in your market theory drove you to believe that actively
working sculptors would want to see, much less buy, your artless
horrors?
Post on alt.sapswithouttaste, alt.suckersforcrap, or
alt.pricemattersmost fer cryin outloud.
christopher
Jud Turner
your right to try and make a living. We are taking issue with the
quality of the work (I fully agree with the other points made here).
If all you want to do is sell your crap, try doing so somewhere else.
None of us are going to buy your crap, or help you sell it. Therefore,
you continue to waste your time and energy by responding and debating.
Do yourself a favor and go away...
- jud turner
www.judturner.com
Kwirl
personally, i don't care who hates me :) i don't hate you, so its a
non-mutual arrangement, i can live with that. i'm actually not a salesman,
its just that the sales affect my job in an indirect manner.
thanks again!
<scul...@tfb.com> wrote in message
news:1118163386....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
spelling perhaps?
<scul...@tfb.com> wrote in message
news:1118163386....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
"Jud Turner" <j...@judturner.com> wrote in message
news:1118165070.5...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
survey...
"Henri" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4nipe.15846$QX1....@fe06.lga...
Jud Turner
talking to you fuckhead....
Kwirl
message, wondering just how many people had pride as an american. At least
85% (with a voting group of about 1,200 people) have said that they do not,
in fact, have pride as an american.
"Henri" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4nipe.15846$QX1....@fe06.lga...
>
Gary Waller
Poor Kwirl stumbled into a hornet's nest!
ON TRYING TO PLEASE EVERYONE
An old man, a boy & a donkey were going to town. The boy rode on the
donkey & the old man walked. As they went along, they passed some people
who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking & the boy was
riding.
The man & boy thought maybe the critics were right, so they changed
positions.
Later, they passed some people that remarked, "What a shame, he makes
that little boy walk." They then decided they both would walk!
Soon they passed some more people who thought they were stupid to walk
when they had a decent donkey to ride. So, they both rode the donkey.
Now they passed some people that shamed them by saying how awful to put
such a load on a poor donkey. The boy & man said they were probably
right, so they decided to carry the donkey. As they crossed the bridge,
they lost their grip on the animal & he fell into the river and drowned.
The moral of the story? If you try to please everyone, you might as
well kiss your ass good-bye.
Have a nice day and be careful with your bronze donkey.
Kwirl
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:_hqpe.1591898$Xk.1030922@pd7tw3no...
Henri
citizens of the United States than of any other country. That rating is the
highest of the 23 nations studied for "National Pride: A Cross-national
Analysis," the largest and most comprehensive international study ever
conducted on national pride.
... The United States was followed by Austria, Canada, Ireland and New
Zealand in the average ranking of two national-pride scales: the National
Pride in Specific Achievements scale, which asked questions related to pride
in achievements in 10 areas, and the General National Pride scale, which
gauged people's assessment of their country's national identity and
purpose...
.. The General National Pride scale asked people if they would rather be
citizens of their country than any other, if they feel their country is
better than any other, if they would support their country even it is wrong,
if there is anything that makes them feel ashamed of their country, and if
they think the world would be a better place if other countries were like
their own. In the General National Pride scale, Austria had a score of 17.6
out of a possible score of 25. The United States was second (17.2), followed
by Bulgaria (17), Hungary (16.7) and Canada (16.6)....
However, I was talking about the 48% who voted against Bush........
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1Ilpe.41$145....@news.uswest.net...
Jon Cattan
<scul...@tfb.com> wrote in message
news:1117787444....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Id say this kind of work even gives Bad Sculpture a bad name.
Looks like some other sculptors have a Bad name for some of these types of
'cheap' imports.
Have a look at
http://www.bronzecopyright.com/
I am not suggesting that Bigbronze is involved in copyright rip offs, but I
find it curious
that there seems to be no credits to the artists who design or originate
their castings.
I should imagine that it is in the interests of Bigbronze and its
associated artists to credit
and build up the reputations of their artists, if that is what they want.
It is curious that the sculpture 'Kids balancing on a rock' is no longer
available in the Bigbronze catalogue. Surely there is no relationship to one
of the sculptures of Jane
Bedecker. The same could be said of the sculpture 'Daddy' in the Bigbronze
catalogue
under children playing which is still available. I wonder if Jane Bedecker
is aware of the unsimilarity to yet another of her original sculpture
images.
Jon
Kwirl
any copyright agreement, we remove it from our catalog and inventory
immediately, as you said. however, often times an artist will have a
mistaken impression of just how broad their copyright protection extends.
for example, someone can make a sculpture of a boy sitting on a bench
reading a book. i hate to tell you, but you do not own the concept of a boy
reading on a bench. just because we or one of our customers design a
sculpture that involves a boy reading on a bench does not mean we stole your
work. often we didn't even know about the 'original' - so don't flatter
yourself. that said, if our research shows that our work is too similar to
an existing artist's work, we *will* have our product removed and destroyed.
we respect the work of established artists, im sorry you feel otherwise.
notice that i have not slandered any artist here, yet i've been accused a
number of debaucheries, with no factual basis. this is typical of the
community however, so it doesn't even remotely bother me.
-kwirl
"Jon Cattan" <jonc...@REMOVEUPPERCAPStiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42a85a22$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Kwirl
'pride.'
the fact is i love america, im proud of my country, but i don't really feel
any special pride simply for being an american. i feel there are too many
americans still entrenched in hate, ignorance, and greed to really consider
a generic 'i love my country no matter what' attitude as feasible.
"Henri" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nVFpe.294$1v7...@fe04.lga...
Jon Cattan
The sculpture of Impala Lechner at
http://www.bronzecopyright.com/
bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever at all, at all
to the original masterpieces from Bigbronze
http://www.bigbronze.com/view.php?itemid=00000229
How can this be?
Jon
SL
their images with their logo so they can't be stolen...
Steve L.
"Jon Cattan" <jonc...@REMOVEUPPERCAPStiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42a86...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Kwirl
Impala's sculpture compared to our own there are a significant number of
differences to qualify our piece as distinct in its own right. I'm sure she
would love to copyright the concept of ducks flying, but sadly it doesn't
work that way yet. Yes, our piece may be similar, but we didn't copy her
work, sorry.
We have invested tens of thousands of dollars into our database of
photography work, every picture is categorized, retouched, and stored for
usage. Our collection of original images spans tens of gigabytes of
original photographic pieces and yes, we copyright our images. Like I have
stated before, we do respect copyright laws, and always have.
-kwirl
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:l_mdnYWcffE...@vnet-inc.com...
Gary Waller
> community however, so it doesn't even remotely bother me.
>
> -kwirl
>
impressions of contemporary artists work, often hiding behind the MTYH
"if I change it 20% it's not a violation" - some appear to have found
their way in your inventory, and I can see your company just would not
want the hassle of defending it. You also have some bad impressions of
the copyright free 'classics'. But all in all, your overall selection is
pretty good -considering your target market - middle class Americans
with generally unsophisticated tastes in ART and a maximum of $3,000 to
spend. Many of this crowd, that I have met anyways, hold artists in
contempt - and many of the artists are responsible for this rift which
has arisen over the years.
More "typical of the community" - meaning the fine art community and
fine art schools, is "It's all been done before" - usually spoken with
the nose in the air and a bored, haughty tone. Painting, drawing and
sculpture are declared the 'heritage arts' - interesting to draw upon,
but hardly worth spending too much time on. Multimedia, performance and
other 'groundbreaking' work is encouraged. You have to play the game if
you want to be an Masters of Fine Arts for example - then you become
part of the art establishment perpetuating this point of view. In fact
many fine artists would ridicule your selection of art - "boys sitting
on turtles (Dan?)" and the cutesy stuff that your company has selected.
Where's the emotion, where's the fire, they might ask.
But the fact is Thomas Kinkade is the most successfull living artist
ever. His corporation is capitalised at $1.5 billion. He sells $1
million per hour on the Shopping Network. The average 'fine' artist has
never heard of him. Locally, Robert Bateman, a very good wildlife
painter, raised the ire of the art community in the 80's by issuing a
limited edition of 25,000. He is one of Canada's most well known
painters yet not one of his work is owned in a national collection,
there is no category as 'wildlife art' and therefore he does not
"officially" exist as an artist.
My advice to kwirl is to get back to work, work hard and save your dough
- learn your market - then start your own company with the principles
you can embrace, and the best people you can afford. A warning though,
if you start to look at customers as a time share salesman might (ie
fresh meat with open wallets) you will fail quickly. This is the biggest
danger of operating an internet based company - you lose connection with
people.
Mag
I would like to address your responses about your statement of
respecting the copyrights of other artists. I don't beleive you have
any respect for any artist or any rights of intelectual property.
My name is Margaret DeDecker and I am the sister and studio manager of
sculptor Jane DeDecker, which the gentleman refered to as DeBecker, but
he was close and very correct in the similarities with numerous
sculptures done by Jane DeDecker. I have printed images off your site
for some time, collecting data to build a case against your company
about your deliberate infringements on her protected intelectual
properties. Your blatent disregard for all artist is evident in the
other artists' designs I have witnessed on all of your sites and I have
a list and the images of those knockoffs as well. Right now on you
site you have two pieces that are undoubledly Jane DeDecker designs
Daddy, and Three children reading on a log, and you have streached a
few designs which were derivites of Jane's designs, like Kids balancing
on a log bench. As well I have seen other images like, a girl on a
bench with cutout paper dolls, which is most definately Jane DeDecker's
design.
You should be warned that if I continue to see any of her designs on
any and all of your websites I will be pushed to take legal action
against your company as we have been pushed to take other companies for
these same designs and others. You should be also warned that we have
not lost a case and we have won monetary damages from each as well as a
court ruling of infringement of knockoff designs. Consider this a
cease and desist request!
We are not to be brushed off easily and as of today I have notified all
other artists,for example: George Lundeen (knockoff Cowboy with
saddle), Desmond Fountain (Girl laying down reading) of the design
infringements from your company against their designs, and these are
only a few on my list.
Clean up your act and be ORIGINAL, if you have creative artists working
for you then let them create their own designs!!!!! Our organization
is and will be continually watching you! www.bronzecopyright.com
NO BS
Margaret DeDecker
Jud Turner
Very happy someone is pursing this through legal channels..
thank you very much,
Jud
Kwirl
about it, lol. Threat *me* all you want, I am a 26 year old college kid who
does programming to pay the bills.
However, another reason I work for them is because I have a working
background regarding copyright litigation. I frequently use your web site
as a place to go and laugh at people who don't understand the subject matter
of their content. When in fact, something on bigbronze.com meets the LEGAL
DEFINITION of copyright infringement of any material, that product is
removed and is not available to any consumer.
We apologize if you feel that any of our products infringe upon your
definition of a copyright, however our works have been checked against the
standards provided by the United States copyright, which are essentially
globally respected re: the Berne Convention.
You may wish to do a bit more research on Copyright Law, in particular the
sections regarding independent creation. Would you like me to cite passages
for you? Or should I allow you to discover for yourself what I already
know?
That said, if any works are truly and honestly derived from copyrighted
works, we do not sell or endorse those materials, and inquiries are directed
to the original artist.
"Mag" <margaret...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1118344952.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
orginal artists for sales, people who want the real thing or can afford the
real thing would never consider coming to us for a work of that caliber. We
handle people on a short budget who can not afford the work of 'established'
artists, but want something of similar caliber to augment their property in
some way.
Again, I am not speaking "for" these guys, I am a college student who does
freelance work who enjoys stirring up easily antagonized communities. I
learned about the sore spot that exists regarding the art 'industry' and
thought I would explore it. My best friend is a sculptor, she makes
beautiful works of art (in my opinion) but she can't penetrate the 'clique'
of established artists, so essentially her artwork will probably forever be
confined to the few individuals who have been fortunate enough to find her
work or receive something as a gift.
I truly see both sides of the argument, and my point of antagony is that
they truly do not intersect to the degree that this community would like to
portray.
-kwirl
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:at0qe.1622256$Xk.1483911@pd7tw3no...
Kwirl
legal right. In american people are innocent until proven guilty, unless i
missed a major judicial blog posting.
"Jud Turner" <j...@judturner.com> wrote in message
news:1118346171.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Gary Oblock
> Thanks Gary, for understanding the basics. We don't even compete with
> orginal artists for sales, people who want the real thing or can afford the
> real thing would never consider coming to us for a work of that caliber. We
> handle people on a short budget who can not afford the work of 'established'
> artists, but want something of similar caliber to augment their property in
> some way.
I think you do compete. The majority of my work, although not life-sized,
is in the price range of the stuff you sell and the perception that bigger is better
is hard to fight. Also, I ask myself were the heck does the average guy put a
life-sized sculpture and I come back with the answer that the average person
doesn't have a place to put it. I think it's sleazy rich bastards (with no taste)
taking advantage of cheap foreign labor that buy your stuff.
-- Gary
--
Gary Oblock
You're just a troll! Everybody, just ignore this guy!
-- Gary
Kwirl
both sides of the argument at hand here, I'm stirring it up because I enjoy
studying human response to relative stimulus.
"Gary Oblock" <mw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42A8A0AC...@earthlink.net...
Gary Waller
> I think you do compete. The majority of my work, although not life-sized,
> is in the price range of the stuff you sell and the perception that bigger is better
> is hard to fight. Also, I ask myself were the heck does the average guy put a
> life-sized sculpture and I come back with the answer that the average person
> doesn't have a place to put it. I think it's sleazy rich bastards (with no taste)
> taking advantage of cheap foreign labor that buy your stuff.
>
> -- Gary
Gary - another fundamental part of business is selection. You may make
the best cheeseburger in the world, and it may be 80% of your business -
but you still have to offer a whole bunch of other menu items. Also look
in any successful retail shop - there is high price items, that people
"ooh & ahh" over , but never buy, then the medium priced items carefully
arranged, then the inexpensive versions, usually on the bottom shelves -
guess where the profits are made - putting the already overpriced
'medium" items on sale at 10% off. You simply have to make a wider
variety of items to be successful, trying to following the above
marketing principles. Many galleries will not seriously represent an
artist unless that artist has the ability to grind out works on a timely
basis. That is the secret of success in fine art, a secret the art
schools often crush into dust. All the successful artists have/had this
trait - they were workaholics. There is a small film going around which
I admit I have not seen - but would like to. It is a documentary about
Attila Richard Lukacs:
http://www.cinematheque.bc.ca/mar_apr_05/drawing_out_the_demons.html
What I understand is remarkable is his drive.
This is the same in the music business by the way - another great
documentary about two bands on different paths - "Dig" - highly recommended.
You can also sell US foundry cast originals at one price, and
fiberglass, foreign made copies at another price, and then the teeshirts
- there are so many options. Painters do the equivalent of this all the
time. But you have to provide a choice if you want to get noticed and
the dollar in your hand. People love to 'shop' - comparing then coming
home with what they consider to be the best 'whatever' or a 'true
bargain'. And yes, average people are buying big items - my theory is
they think they are buying 'conspicuous good taste' - I mean how
frickin' classy is it to have Venus d'milo on your deck - specially when
you put x mas lights on her in the holiday season!
Of course none of the above matters if the creation of your art has
nothing to do with making a dollar.
SL
stealing ideas of others that have a lot of time and money invested it their
work but you don't want others to steal yours. Wouldn't it be interesting if
the original sculptor used one of your images to promote their work? I'd
like to sit in on the litigation.
Steve L.
"Kwirl" <kwirlk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:w_%pe.88$xu2....@news.uswest.net...
elflein
Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight against
these infringers world wide !
First they steel our original, copy our originals badly and cheep,after
we have sued them,
they chane them a little bit and continue to sell !
Nice hmhmhmh….
Some of us sculptors have up to 20 of our designs copied on the world
market !
I think that is not an accident or 20% OFF ,
if it is something they are bad copies, because professionals are
expensive !
Cheep made in Thailand !
In addition to all, the knock offs are signed with FAKE ARITSTS names
like " Leonardo Rossi, A. Moreau or only Moreau,
Jim Davidson......
It is also NOT BRONZE, but CHEEP BRASS, with lead and other cheep
metals !
We made an analysis of several knock offs which where sent back to the
originator ,
alone to sell them as bronze is illegal !
The REAL artists are world famous, like Jane Dedecker,
having a one woman show in New York at Madison Av.
Or being in Sculpture Review Magazine in several pages !
Or having created monuments all over the US, like Gary Lee Price !
Or the rest of us !
Several artists got together already, we are doing raids, law sues,
everything to stop this pandemic !
You can read about our legal battles in our web site !
Or got to www.bronzecopyright.com
Big Bronze and All Classics is one company and they do have the courage
to even place adds in art magazines !
We stopped that !
Their web site www.sculptor-eu.com : sales to Europe has changed also
already !
They even had an original copy of the Danish Mer Maiden selling !
They took out this sculpture after we informed the copyright owners!
They still have many knock off in their sites, even they MUST know our
web site by now !
Knock offs are seen in so called professional galleries or the "biggest
gallery in Europe" sold our knock offs,
until we raided their provider !
It is important for the WORDL to know what is going on !
REAL ART AND ORIGINAL ART WILL BE RUINED BY GREEDY MONEY MAKING PEOPLE,
WHICH DO NOT CARE OR HAVE ANY DIGNITY !
Impala Lechner, knocked off artist
and just to explain how it feels when I discovered I was copied:
Imagine you come home and someone has broken into your house,
your intimate belongings are gone,
everything was touched by someone you do not know and which has no
friendly intentions towards you.
All these companies which copy us, about 50 providers world wide, could
have asked !
They do not know: ok, why do they have our original pictures from our
books or catalogues on their web site beside their knock offs !!!!!
And all the other information we do have by now !
elflein
Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight against
these infringers world wide !
First they steel our original,
copy our originals badly and cheep,
after we have sued them, they change them a little bit and continue to
Impala Lechner, Germany, knocked off artist
Gary Waller
>
> Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight against
> these infringers world wide !
>
I'm in the worst position here because I am an architectural sculptor
and a commercial sculptor (I make what you want). I have dabbled in fine
art, and will become more involved with original stone carving and
original fresco in the next year. I am not a working fine artist - but I
am still entitled to an opinion.
My opinion is that much of the 'fine art' on display on
bronzecopyright.com is mediocre to banal. Several pieces are so sickly
sweet they make my teeth ache. That they have found a market,
particularly in public art installations, does not surprise me - it is
the same market as bigbronze.com - people whose decisions are governed
by committees and highly influenced by media subterfuge. These people
want eye candy - not brain candy. The success of these pieces points
more to the failure of the public art movement in Canada and USA - the
whole system supports the banal, and stifles innovation. I am not the
first to point this out. Many real estate developers have to throw in a
1% for public art - but the decision is often by a committee upon which
they have no representation. They fear the controversial - so they often
tuck the location away somewhere and use a lot of wires and water to eat
up the 1% - the statue is often an afterthought and disconnected from
the location and the setting. That there are hundreds of installations
like this throughout shopping malls and condominium parks should act as
a condemnation. So a clash between bronzecopyright and bigbronze is
inevitable - it is similair (and as pointless) as two greeting card
companies fighting it out over who owns "Happy Birthday Dude!"
Gary
Vancouver
Gary Oblock
In other words you like poking sticks in ant hills?
Gary Oblock
Gary --
I do sculpture for several reasons but money isn't the primary one.
Any money I make, until I'm well established, (assuming I ever reach
that point ;-) ) goes back into building a bigger body of work.
I can see your point about a variety of selections and to a certain point
I plan on addressing that. However, I've always had a negative gut reaction
to resin and plaster dressed up to be something it isn't so I'm not going to go
there. Acrylic, if well done, is a decent material but you have to be selling a
lot of work before you can justify casting in acrylic.
-- Gary
Henri
out of it!
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118358567.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Info for all:
Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight against
these infringers world wide !
First they steel our original,
copy our originals badly and cheep,
after we have sued them, they change them a little bit and continue to
sell !
Nice hmhmhmh.
elflein
Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight against
these infringers world wide !
First they steel our original,
copy our originals badly and cheep,
after we have sued them, they change them a little bit and continue to
sell !
Nice hmhmhmh….
And just to explain how it feels when I discovered I was copied:
elflein
taste is here not at all the question,
as you well know knocking off others is not legal !
All of us have a US copyright certificate and created our sculpture to
a much earlier time as Big Bronze or All Classics.
Impala
elflein
do you know that Big Bronze and All Classics still have and had in the
past about 30 knock offs for sale, they took several out already,
they where up to the clothing, movements ect..... identical to our
designs, as the girl sitting on a bench playing with cutouts, from
Jane Dedecker !
So, may be you should study more the copyright law !
We are in this challenge for four years now and we have won, as Maggie
told you, every conflict !
I think , 10 cases, raids done by state persecutors, judges in court,
we do have enough knowledge and proof what is our copyright or not, by
now !
The court proved these people NOT innocent !
Particular the sections regarding independent creation !
The creations of Big Bronze and others are NOT independent enough !
Impala
Kwirl
last couple decades...we call it a 'spell checker' in recent years, we even
provide tools to correct improper grammar. If you have a problem with your
context, please feel free to send your work to me and I can proofread your
posts before you post them to the newsgroup, this service is free for such a
charming friend as you so obviously are.
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118353386.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
***Comment: Many bronze artists around the world are in a survival fight
against
these infringers world wide ! First they steel our original, copy our
originals badly and cheep,after
we have sued them, they chane them a little bit and continue to sell !
Nice hmhmhmh.
Some of us sculptors have up to 20 of our designs copied on the world
market !
I think that is not an accident or 20% OFF ,
if it is something they are bad copies, because professionals are
expensive ! Cheep made in Thailand !
***Response: Move to Thailand, I hear there is a shortage of artists there.
***Comment: In addition to all, the knock offs are signed with FAKE ARITSTS
names
like " Leonardo Rossi, A. Moreau or only Moreau,
Jim Davidson......
***Response: Using a pen name as an artist is not only accepted, it is
widely practiced even among traditional arists.
***Comment: It is also NOT BRONZE, but CHEEP BRASS, with lead and other
cheep
metals !
We made an analysis of several knock offs which where sent back to the
originator ,
alone to sell them as bronze is illegal !
The REAL artists are world famous, like Jane Dedecker,
having a one woman show in New York at Madison Av.
Or being in Sculpture Review Magazine in several pages !
Or having created monuments all over the US, like Gary Lee Price !
Or the rest of us !
***Response: First, apparently you do not know what bronze is, do you? It
is an alloy of copper and tin...do you know what an alloy is? I'm assuming
by 'We made an analysis of' you are really saying 'what we want consumers to
believe is' - this is a very effective campaign, but do you realize other
ways of employing your own strategy? How about this: Our manufactured
bronzed was analyzed by our experts and shown to be made of 100% gold!
Isn't 'spinning' fun? Judging by the level of education you have displayed
in your writing, I seriously doubt you even know how to perform a proper
'analysis' of anything, much less breaking down common alloys into base
elements.
***Comment: Several artists got together already, we are doing raids, law
sues,
everything to stop this pandemic !
You can read about our legal battles in our web site !
Or got to www.bronzecopyright.com
***Response: There is no law against mass producing artwork of original or
public domain designs, no matter how much you would like to believe
otherwise.
***Comment: Big Bronze and All Classics is one company and they do have the
courage
to even place adds in art magazines !
We stopped that !
***Response: No, you didn't
Their web site www.sculptor-eu.com : sales to Europe has changed also
already !
***Comment: They even had an original copy of the Danish Mer Maiden selling
!
They took out this sculpture after we informed the copyright owners!
***Response: By translating your gibberish, I assume you are referring to
the "Mermaid of Copenhagen" - A sculpture which was unveiled in 1913 in
Copenhagen, and was itself inspired by the ballet 'The Little Mermaid."
The ability to extend the life of a copyright on a work of art was
retroactively applied in the 1970's to extend as far back as 1923. However,
the "Mermaid of Copenhagen," having an original copyright date of 1913 is
exempt from this exclusion, and as such, has been a part of the public
domain for nearly 20 years now. I am sorry that the laws in your private
world do not seem to reflect the Bernes Convention that the majority of the
'free' world has adopted as standards for copyright.
They still have many knock off in their sites, even they MUST know our
web site by now !
Knock offs are seen in so called professional galleries or the "biggest
gallery in Europe" sold our knock offs,
until we raided their provider !
It is important for the WORDL to know what is going on !
REAL ART AND ORIGINAL ART WILL BE RUINED BY GREEDY MONEY MAKING PEOPLE,
WHICH DO NOT CARE OR HAVE ANY DIGNITY !
Impala Lechner, knocked off artist
***Comment: and just to explain how it feels when I discovered I was copied:
Imagine you come home and someone has broken into your house,
your intimate belongings are gone,
everything was touched by someone you do not know and which has no
friendly intentions towards you.
***Response: (plays a tiny purple violin)
Kwirl
because I had a southern accent.
"not independent enough" ... lol, I am SOOO going to start posting these
nonsensical ramblings on my web page :P
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118411190.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
Kwirl
a 'famous' artist were to use a mass-produced piece of artwork for
promotional purposes, you'd see us take out full-page ads in the WSJ letting
the world know it, we'd be thrilled!
"SL" <slst...@ttc-cmc.net> wrote in message
news:PKWdnQrLNvs...@vnet-inc.com...
Gary Waller
My point is that if you are going to surf the mainstream, you are bound
to be at least "imitated" - and the courts decide where the line between
imitation and direct copying lies. I sure the Beatles would have liked
to have had a copyright on the concept of "Four mop topped lads singing
catchy pop songs" - but the corporations invented the Monkees.
Similarly in TV and movies and restaurants and fashion and novels and
architecture and websites.
There is nothing in the artwork from the group of artists you put
forward I saw which would "brand" any of those artists, in fact it is
remarkable how close you all are in style and execution!
This blur attracts imitators and mimics. You make it look easy, and much
of the work you have shown is generic from a technical/production
standpoint. The mimics see $20,000 for two weeks work -easy money.
The problem is that with production in countries such as Thailand and
China - they are asked to "imitate" some creature they have never seen
except in photos. This is especially laughable with wildlife and
equestrian work - and the bigbronze.com wildlife section has some of the
least lifelike work I have ever seen. So the buyers of this work not
only want to buy on the cheap, they have most likely never seen a real
fox, bear, deer, etc. At least not seen one long enough to appreciate
the expression and details - the essence of the beast. Maybe this period
of bronzes will become known as some sort of "folk art" for the global
village, or as Andrew suggested earlier, melted down to make more worthy
pieces.
Gary
Vancouver
Kwirl
pieces, its just that the pictures seem to fail to do them proper justice.
when i walk around the inventory, the animals are amazingly lifelike.
keep in mind that while a lot of work that bigbronze has done on consignment
for other people, bigbronze.com does have its own artists who make their
work to be cast and produced.
we have some rather high-profile customers, and i can assure you that if the
quality of our work was questionable, we wouldn't have been in business for
as long as we have.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:Kkjqe.1640129$8l.1464083@pd7tw1no...
elflein
I hope no one treats you like that, if you talk and write in German, as
an American !
Otherwise you are just cynical, can you not read, I said I am a German
Artist !
Or did we got you by the throat, you should study your laws better.
Only one example: the copyright of an artist expires 70 years after
her/his death ONLY !
Bern Convention !
Impala
elflein
may be you should go back to:
George Graham Jun 3, 3:12 pm
and read some about bronze !
Impala
Dan S
Speaking to my fellow American and Western artists, and not to others,
we need to think carefully about speaking out to our customer base/
audience and describing what is being perpetrated. We might like
everyone to have high aesthetic standards, but that will never be the
reality: If you sell enough tires to be able to buy a bronze, you surely
haven't had time to study art.
Another problem may be the cost of our own foundries. Are they bloating
their prices, getting as proud as union electricians?
Local artists get local sales as patrons wish to support them, but when
you do go national, with costly ads in glossy mags, you open yourself to
the wolves. Victor Issa sends me well-printed brochures showing his
ripoffs next to his real work, and I can see how it would tempt a
middleclass customer who has seen Victor's ads. Maybe Victor and his
foundry need to cut out some of the fat.
Perhaps the biggest tragedy is that great modern Chinese sculpture is
lost by the wayside as China rushes to counterfeit even low-production
Western art.
Dan
still casting plaster mostly
SL
> their prices, getting as proud as union electricians?
A lot of people think the same way about foundries. The foundry business is
not an easy business. In the over 22 or so years I've been in this business
I've used foundries, cast my own, cast for others, had employees, and I've
worked at large commercial foundries. The prices the foundries I worked at
and what I charged has been less than an electrician or mechanic. Some
foundries pay employees pretty well others pay poorly. It is a labor
intensive and hazardous to your health, workman's comp. insurance is high,
the building and equipment used is expensive. It's hard to get employees and
it takes a long time to train them when you can get them. Foundries are
competitive and keep the prices as low as possible to keep customers and get
new ones. Customers are fickle and will drop one foundry for another if
they think they can get a better deal.
At the moment I just cast my own work because I don't want the headaches
involved in the foundry business.
Steve L.
Henri
Electricians have to serve apprenticeships for three years before they can
even take the 6-8 hour Journeyman test. The two more years before they can
take the Masters exam to be a contractor.
I think a better comparison would be GM,, where you get 25 bucks or more and
hour to secure a doorhandle. ;)
Henri
"Dan S" <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4lqqe.2260$pa3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Gary Oblock
At the foundry I use most of the people have a background in sculpture and I think
they are there because they simply love sculpture (in addition to getting access
to the facilities for there own projects).
elflein
in Thailand they sell my knock off for 200.-US$ !
We do have the invoices from the Thai foundry to the infringer !!
In Europe or the USA the metal only will be more !
The infringers sell my DESIGN- knock off - for 2050.-US$, I was given
an offer,
they can't give it cheeper to me,
because it is an original "Leonardo Roossi", comes with a certificate
and biographie from the artists.
Professionals have prooven, this artists does not exist !
Also, can you belive seeing a picture from your original sculpture
beside the knock off on the web sites of companies ?!
So, what is wrong in this picture !
I would call it art fraud !
Impala
Henri
US Customs they willnot allow any goods from that business to come into
USA... is this true? have you tried this?
Henri
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118526606.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kwirl
pre-existing copyrights at the time of that law's passing.
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118434953.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
elflein
may be you should ask a lawyer !
Impala
elflein
may be you should ask a lwyer !
Impala
elflein
we do everything to stop that original art gets destroyed
with illegal knock offs and
mass production, made cheep in Thailand.
Impala
Kwirl
in question :)
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118685430.6...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
elflein
sweet how cynical you are, it just gives me a smile !
We are - I am focus on more important aims,
as a foreigner can speak or write English !
look in our web site and you find my e-mail:
www.bronzecopyright.com
Impala
elflein
is'nt it interesting, that MOST "sculptures" in question now removed
from your web site ?
Do not worry, we do have a total documentation about your site since a
while !
And you sold plenty knock offs !
Impala
Henri
actually works to your advantage to let them sell lots of stuff.
"elflein" <lechn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1119011057.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
elflein
you are not showing up anymore on your own advertisement site !
Are you speachless now !?
It is just astonishing how RUTHLESS these companies like BIG BRONZE and
ALL CLASSICS or
BRONZESCULPTURE-EU are !
Going through a collection of an artist and knocking off up to 20
ORIGINALS !
In addition to that, they advertise in professional art magazines, put
our original photos from our catalogues
beside the knock off on their web site ………we can continue endless here
!
How much further can you go and think ARTISTS are IDIOTS !?!?!?!?
Kwirl, be sure, we will take action!
Impala
Impala