Public Commission questions.... mixed feelings
artist
I'm a regular poster here but have an issue that I'd rather just ask
about anonymously as to not look like a trouble maker if anyone who
matters to my issue is reading...
Let me START by stating that I am, indeed, EXCITED about getting my
first, large, public commission! The doubts and frustrations that
follow are just signs that I'm trying to make a LIVING as an artist...
something art buyers sometimes forget.
I recently was selected to do a sculpture commission for a city. The
total amount rounds to about $30,000.
Out of that, they want me to pay:
supplies
hiring an assistant
transportation
installation
copy-writing with government
and
insurance
all of this is more or less understandable, but on top of that, they
also want me to pay for an engineer to sign-off on the location of the
piece (how the base/mounting system sits on the concrete)
and
SALES TAX.
This last one really sticks out to me... is it normal for working
with municipalities? I realize that, as an artist, I have no power
whatsoever (ie: if I object, they would just go with someone else),
but it just doesn't seem right to charge an artist more than $2,000 to
pay sales taxes on something they are selling.
Is this just a way to reach an agreement on price with the artist and
then deduct nearly 10% from that price when the contract is signed?
Maybe there's no answer... maybe I just need to vent to some other
artists and have an understanding ear (maybe) on this... Obviously
I'm not going to turn down a public sculpture even if I walked away
with almost nothing because there's the chance that this will lead to
MORE, paying, gigs in the future, but it's still a bit frustrating.
Has anyone else found this practice to be common? Is this just normal
and I'm making a big deal out of nothing?
Thanks for any advice/suggestions/flames
Happily Frustrated.
Andrew Werby
Subject: Re: Public Commission questions.... mixed feelings
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:37 AM
"artist" <an...@anon.com> wrote in message
news:g2ogk0p3aag4ad2uf...@4ax.com...
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm a regular poster here but have an issue that I'd rather just ask
> about anonymously as to not look like a trouble maker if anyone who
> matters to my issue is reading...
[Fat chance...]
>
> Let me START by stating that I am, indeed, EXCITED about getting my
> first, large, public commission! The doubts and frustrations that
> follow are just signs that I'm trying to make a LIVING as an artist...
> something art buyers sometimes forget.
>
> I recently was selected to do a sculpture commission for a city. The
> total amount rounds to about $30,000.
>
> Out of that, they want me to pay:
>
> supplies
> hiring an assistant
> transportation
> installation
> copy-writing with government
[What's that?]
> and
> insurance
[This can be expensive, especially if they're insisting that you provide
coverage for the piece after it's installed.]
>
> all of this is more or less understandable, but on top of that, they
> also want me to pay for an engineer to sign-off on the location of the
> piece (how the base/mounting system sits on the concrete)
>
> and
>
> SALES TAX.
>
> This last one really sticks out to me... is it normal for working
> with municipalities? I realize that, as an artist, I have no power
> whatsoever (ie: if I object, they would just go with someone else),
> but it just doesn't seem right to charge an artist more than $2,000 to
> pay sales taxes on something they are selling.
[I thought municipalities were usually exempt from state sales taxes on
items they're buying. This probably varies from state to state, but it might
be worth checking out with the state tax authorities.]
>
> Is this just a way to reach an agreement on price with the artist and
> then deduct nearly 10% from that price when the contract is signed?
[If it's a city sales tax, that would be pretty shoddy...]
>
>
> Maybe there's no answer... maybe I just need to vent to some other
> artists and have an understanding ear (maybe) on this... Obviously
> I'm not going to turn down a public sculpture even if I walked away
> with almost nothing because there's the chance that this will lead to
> MORE, paying, gigs in the future, but it's still a bit frustrating.
>
> Has anyone else found this practice to be common? Is this just normal
> and I'm making a big deal out of nothing?
[Actually, so far it sounds rather mild. Here's a contract for a commission
I was looking at - not only are they asking the artist to pay all the above,
indemnify the city from all responsibility whatever, and agree to pay the
charges incurred by the city attorney's while enforcing all this (at the
rate private attorneys in the area usually charge) but they want the
artist's hard-won moral rights waived at the outset, so they can destroy or
mutilate the piece, if they want to:
http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/community/pdf/contract.pdf ]
>
> Thanks for any advice/suggestions/flames
>
> Happily Frustrated.
[Well, like you say, the artist has no bargaining power here, and these
contracts show it. Like it or lump it, that's your choice...]
Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com
>
Jack Casuso
1. It seems logical that you would pay for your supplies, assistant(s),
transportation AND installation if your contract calls upon you to install.
If you are responsible for installation, then it would be also
reasonable/prudent for you to have someone knowledgeable sign off on the
mounting. It does not seem reasonable that you should have to pay for site
review. Don't they know where they want it? That is their responsibility.
2. I can understand your having to pay sales tax on supplies or services
and even these may be questionable (depending on where you are) because the
product is for resale. It appears that it is unreasonable for you the
seller to pay the tax. It is the buyers that pay the sale taxes. The
seller collects these from the buyer and passes them on to the gov. entity.
Seems to me that they are trying to recoup some of the $ they are paying
out.
Bottom line, you have to decide as you know. What did the RFP state? Did
it have these conditions in it when you submitted your proposal? If not,
you could protest and if they attempt to drop you, you would have legal
recourse.
Again, just my 2 cents.
"artist" <an...@anon.com> wrote in message
news:g2ogk0p3aag4ad2uf...@4ax.com...
Sculptingman
thoughts...
Taxes- most municipalities are exempt from paying sales taxes on
public works- what they probably mean is not that you pay tax on the
30,000- rather, that you pay sales tax on any products or services YOU
buy in creating the work. Like you're the end user. So- if you have it
cast for 5,000 you pay the sales tax on THAT- not the price you are
passing along to the City.
For 30,000 I would hope its a pretty small piece. As to being willing
to do it for nearly nothing... forget that- work out your costs and
either design them something you can make a decent living on for your
time, or walk away.
The first rule of making a living at art ( which i have done for 25
years now) is not to apologize for your pricing. Your time is as
valuable as anyone else's. And a point to bring up in negotiation is
that many states have laws that compel municipalities to pay for
services at the "going" rates- and an artist/designer's pay rate ranks
right up there with an architect's. That's their LABOR rate, I
mean...- materials etc on top of that.
Also- negotiable- that's another key idea- until a contract is signed
EVERYTHING is negotiable. You will have to have insurance to cover you
and anyone working for you DURING construction,under a contract, but
the City must take over liability after that. For you to have to pay
for any engineering required is also normal, however, the price they
want to pay for this artwork may not be anywhere near reality- so , if
you can establish to them what your costs will be (and your "design
fee" is just another line item under costs), and demonstrate that
there is no way you can afford to build it without more money to cover
the things they want you to cover... They may spring for more...
OR, you can sometimes get them to do the deal as a simple sale- that
is- they are just buying the finished artwork, like a park bench, and
THEY take responsibility for installation, engineering, insurance etc.
In this scenario you do not get a contract, but a purchase order.
YOU assume all liability for getting the thing made- (and, a certain
liability for making it sound- if it falls over on someone, you get
named in the suit. For that reason- if its anything more complex than
a guy sitting down with a wide 3 points of contact for mounting- I
would get an engineer to look at the design before you build it to
make sure it can stand up to wind and climbing children) ( that , or
get a product liability policy)
Most importantly- be confident- present yourself as a professional- do
your homework and have your figures and cost estimates at hand in any
discussion. Get 3 foundries to bid the job, if bronze, and multiple
bids for any other aspect you would have to sub-contract out.
Prepare a presentation that shows the work or design in a good light-
even a composite showing it onsite- get them to WANT it before the
money issues are settled. If they truely WANT it, they will find a way
to afford it.
christopher
Henri Sculptor
.....as for the engineer, ask them if they can get the city engineer to sign
off on it? Just a guess, it might work,, usually the city engineer owes the
city favors,, just a guess from other things I have seen in other matters.
Or ask if the building inspector can inspect it because ' it's the same as
a footer?'. I would try those things. Depends on the size of the city.
$30 grand sounds cheap for a public work, I mean casting is half the cost?,,
the base,, etc?
Like Jack said,, don't the buyers pay the sales tax? Is this some little
hick town? I live ( moved here via Miami) near hick towns,, I know how they
operate. Do you mean a business license? Hick towns suck.
Watch the contract for arbitration, you can't go to court with a jury if
it's in there.
Henri
"artist" <an...@anon.com> wrote in message
news:g2ogk0p3aag4ad2uf...@4ax.com...
artist
They want me to put an official copywrite on the piece, I've never
done it, but I'm imagining a photo, description, and couple hundred
dollars (and a few hours of my time) should be all that's required.
Has anyone here copywrited their work? What's the process?
>> and
>> insurance
>
>[This can be expensive, especially if they're insisting that you provide
>coverage for the piece after it's installed.]
They only need insurance up to installation.
>> all of this is more or less understandable, but on top of that, they
>> also want me to pay for an engineer to sign-off on the location of the
>> piece (how the base/mounting system sits on the concrete)
>>
>> and
>>
>> SALES TAX.
>>
>> This last one really sticks out to me... is it normal for working
>> with municipalities? I realize that, as an artist, I have no power
>> whatsoever (ie: if I object, they would just go with someone else),
>> but it just doesn't seem right to charge an artist more than $2,000 to
>> pay sales taxes on something they are selling.
>
>[I thought municipalities were usually exempt from state sales taxes on
>items they're buying. This probably varies from state to state, but it might
>be worth checking out with the state tax authorities.]
Apparently not. I can check into it, but the art commission seems
pretty sure of themselves on this point.
>> Is this just a way to reach an agreement on price with the artist and
>> then deduct nearly 10% from that price when the contract is signed?
>
>[If it's a city sales tax, that would be pretty shoddy...]
Very true.
>> Maybe there's no answer... maybe I just need to vent to some other
>> artists and have an understanding ear (maybe) on this... Obviously
>> I'm not going to turn down a public sculpture even if I walked away
>> with almost nothing because there's the chance that this will lead to
>> MORE, paying, gigs in the future, but it's still a bit frustrating.
>>
>> Has anyone else found this practice to be common? Is this just normal
>> and I'm making a big deal out of nothing?
>
>[Actually, so far it sounds rather mild. Here's a contract for a commission
>I was looking at - not only are they asking the artist to pay all the above,
>indemnify the city from all responsibility whatever, and agree to pay the
>charges incurred by the city attorney's while enforcing all this (at the
>rate private attorneys in the area usually charge) but they want the
>artist's hard-won moral rights waived at the outset, so they can destroy or
>mutilate the piece, if they want to:
>http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/community/pdf/contract.pdf ]
>
>>
>> Thanks for any advice/suggestions/flames
>>
>> Happily Frustrated.
>
>[Well, like you say, the artist has no bargaining power here, and these
>contracts show it. Like it or lump it, that's your choice...]
I suspect it's always been this way for artists.
Happily Frustrated
artist
<jvca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>For what its worth, here are my 2 cents.
>
>1. It seems logical that you would pay for your supplies, assistant(s),
>transportation AND installation if your contract calls upon you to install.
>If you are responsible for installation, then it would be also
>reasonable/prudent for you to have someone knowledgeable sign off on the
>mounting. It does not seem reasonable that you should have to pay for site
>review. Don't they know where they want it? That is their responsibility.
They know where they want the sculpture, but not about how I should
attach the base. My two options are either a concrete-filled (1 ton)
base or a hollow base bolted to the concrete.
>2. I can understand your having to pay sales tax on supplies or services
>and even these may be questionable (depending on where you are) because the
>product is for resale. It appears that it is unreasonable for you the
>seller to pay the tax. It is the buyers that pay the sale taxes. The
>seller collects these from the buyer and passes them on to the gov. entity.
>Seems to me that they are trying to recoup some of the $ they are paying
>out.
That's how it seems to me as well, but there really is no negociating
their demands. If I say 'no', they would just say "NEXT"....
>Bottom line, you have to decide as you know. What did the RFP state? Did
>it have these conditions in it when you submitted your proposal? If not,
>you could protest and if they attempt to drop you, you would have legal
>recourse.
I don't really have much legal recourse. This is going in my own
county and I'd pretty much destroy my career locally if I did anything
like that, especially for public art calls.
H.F.
artist
>well- having been going thru this for the past year I can give you my
>thoughts...
>
>Taxes- most municipalities are exempt from paying sales taxes on
>public works- what they probably mean is not that you pay tax on the
>30,000- rather, that you pay sales tax on any products or services YOU
>buy in creating the work. Like you're the end user. So- if you have it
>cast for 5,000 you pay the sales tax on THAT- not the price you are
>passing along to the City.
I could buy THAT tax arguement since I got everything wholesale.
>For 30,000 I would hope its a pretty small piece. As to being willing
>to do it for nearly nothing... forget that- work out your costs and
>either design them something you can make a decent living on for your
>time, or walk away.
Ah, that sounds SO NICE... "pay me what I'm worth or I walk"... then
reality rears it's ugly head. Out of the 30k, I'll walk away with
10k. I'm in NO position to walk away from that. The piece is
fabricated stainless steel and bronze and will stand over 15' tall.
The price SHOULD be closer to $70,000, but 1/3 of 30k is better than
100% of $0.
Like 98% of the artists out here, 'walking away' isn't an option. I
have bills.
>The first rule of making a living at art ( which i have done for 25
>years now) is not to apologize for your pricing. Your time is as
>valuable as anyone else's. And a point to bring up in negotiation is
>that many states have laws that compel municipalities to pay for
>services at the "going" rates- and an artist/designer's pay rate ranks
>right up there with an architect's. That's their LABOR rate, I
>mean...- materials etc on top of that.
I lovely point. What would you estimate the going rate for Architects
is these days? (low end and high end)
And what if MONEY seems to be more of a concern to them than the art?
It's a 1% for art thing and they are trying to get as much art as
possible for their $$$. If they decided 30k is the MAX and I say $45,
chances are, they won't think twice about passing me by
Thanks for your advice...
I can only hope that in 20 years I'll be giving good advice to
'emerging' artists.
H.F.
artist
<hank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I don't know shit about this,, but I would maybe try these things..
>
>.....as for the engineer, ask them if they can get the city engineer to sign
>off on it? Just a guess, it might work,, usually the city engineer owes the
>city favors,, just a guess from other things I have seen in other matters.
>Or ask if the building inspector can inspect it because ' it's the same as
>a footer?'. I would try those things. Depends on the size of the city.
I'll try much of that, thanks....
>$30 grand sounds cheap for a public work, I mean casting is half the cost?,,
>the base,, etc?
It's not cast, but it's very large (15+ feet) tall... it's extremely
cheap, but... like everyone tells us artists, the EXPOSURE is worth
something... LOL
>Like Jack said,, don't the buyers pay the sales tax? Is this some little
>hick town? I live ( moved here via Miami) near hick towns,, I know how they
>operate. Do you mean a business license? Hick towns suck.
You'd THINK this is a little hick town. It's not that little, but the
but 'hick' mentality is true. Personally, I'm as impressed as hell
that they chose me, an abstract sculptor in a town where all the bets
would have went with a life-like cast bronze of an old man holding a
little boy's hand. hehe
They're trying....
Thanks for your post!!
Happily frustrated.
mick
fault in that as long as you can earn your crust doing it. If your commision
is a substantial bronze (ouch expensive) or piece of masonary all those
costs: transport, supplies, installation, men in hard hats etc.. well
they're goning to cost more than if your commision was contructed from more
managable material, Aluminum or even Expanded Polystyrene. Not evey one can
walze up to prospective customers an demand a fee but we can all - cut to
fit the cloth - so to speak.
Andrew Werby
>> total amount rounds to about $30,000.
>>
>> Out of that, they want me to pay:
>>
>> supplies
>> hiring an assistant
>> transportation
>> installation
>> copy-writing with government
>
>[What's that?]
They want me to put an official copywrite on the piece, I've never
done it, but I'm imagining a photo, description, and couple hundred
dollars (and a few hours of my time) should be all that's required.
Has anyone here copywrited their work? What's the process?
[First off, you'll have better luck finding information about this if you
get the spelling correct - it's copy"right" - the right to copy.
Copy"writing" is what they do in ad agencies, when they're making up things
to say about a product. Since the 1978 revision of the international
copyright and trademark agreement, copyright is automatic upon the creation
of a piece. All you really have to do is sign it; the little circled "c"
isn't required any more. However, it sounds like they're asking you to
register the copyright, which is pretty much what you're describing above.
This makes it much easier to prove your claim of copyright, should it come
to that. Here's where to do it:
http://www.copyright.gov/register/ . I hope you're allowed to register
copyright in your own name, and don't have to share it with the
commissioning agency according to this contract.]
Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com
George Graham
any left to yourself?
With 15 foot of bronze (cast) & stainless steel (welded no doubt) , a base
and all the rest of the costs they want you to cover it would seem they want
a lot for their bucks.
At least, you'll be able to show it with pride to your grandchildren whilst
you stand there with the backside out of your trousers.
The best of luck George
artist
It's actually the other way around, 90% stainless... and the bronze it
fabricated, not cast, so I won't have foundry expenses, but your point
is well taken.
I most definately don't want to end up being the homeless man huddled
under the beautiful sculpture using it to protect me from the weather.
Happily Frustrated.
Sculptingman
> >cast for 5,000 you pay the sales tax on THAT- not the price you are
> >passing along to the City.
>
> I could buy THAT tax arguement since I got everything wholesale.
If this is in the US then this is certainly what they mean- You can
not be held responsible for sales tax on anything YOU did not buy as
the end user- and municipalities simply don't pay sales tax on public
works- But be warned- any materials or taxable services you buy tax
free that are NOT passed on to a tax paying end user open you up for
major audit and penalties. For a City project, Buy wholesale, sure,
but do not use your resale number...pay the sales tax at your end. (
I just ended 4 years of litigation with the state sales tax guys- I
won, but it cost me to win. You do NOT want to get entangled in the
gearbox of the State)
>
> >For 30,000 I would hope its a pretty small piece. As to being willing
> >to do it for nearly nothing... forget that- work out your costs and
> >either design them something you can make a decent living on for your
> >time, or walk away.
>
>
> Like 98% of the artists out here, 'walking away' isn't an option. I
> have bills.
I have bills too- always have, even when I was lucky to pull in
20,000 a year to support a family of 4-
My real career, the one that pays well, began the day I decided to
stop taking it in the rear just to get work- a job had to minimally
pay for my time and costs or it simply wasn't worth taking...
It meant adopting a certain " I could give a shit" attitude toward any
given client's job.
Oddly enough- that attitude translated into people feeling MORE
confident in my pricing rather than less.
Trust me- don't do any job for free and make every job pay a fair
amount for your time, and if someone can't afford you, then happily
tell them so- I usually tell clients who complain about pricing that
if anyone offers to do it for less, then, chances are, they don't know
what they are doing and I wish them luck...
In my experience, most of the time, they came back after having the
affordable guy screw it up..
> >And a point to bring up in negotiation is
> >that many states have laws that compel municipalities to pay for
> >services at the "going" rates- and an artist/designer's pay rate ranks
> >right up there with an architect's. That's their LABOR rate, I
> >mean...- materials etc on top of that.
>
> I lovely point. What would you estimate the going rate for Architects
> is these days? (low end and high end)
>
Depends on the job- a stand alone artwork is similar to an architect
designing a similar sized signage piece. Ask them how much they
charge-
The memorial I designed for a local City included the design for the
entire site down to sidewalks, retaining walls, graphic art for
signage, speccing materials, etc essentially more like hiring an
architect to design an entire park, and sculpt the bronze figure, to
boot.
Figure you need to earn at least 50K per year- (low end) or as high as
150k once you are established.
( Be fair- if you are just starting out, base it on what you need to
earn, not on a fantasy of wealth)
And then just factor the job based upon time- there are 250 working
days a year- divide the salary you require by that and that's your
daily rate. That's fair wages.
Now your material cost and outsourced costs are X for this particular
piece.
Okay, how many DAYS will it take for you to create this thing?
Versus how many it will take to create it and install it and hang
around the plan check office and pull insurance and all that...
That's the difference between selling the sculpture outright as a
product to the City, or acting as a contractor hired by the city to
build the artwork.
And THAT's your argument to the city for them to buy the thing
outright and THEY handle installation, insurance etc.
Assuming you need more than the 10k you believe you can pull out of
it...
>
> >Also- negotiable- that's another key idea- until a contract is signed
> >EVERYTHING is negotiable.
>
> And what if MONEY seems to be more of a concern to them than the art?
> It's a 1% for art thing and they are trying to get as much art as
> possible for their $$$. If they decided 30k is the MAX and I say $45,
> chances are, they won't think twice about passing me by
Again, this is when you pull out your arguement for them to buy the
work outright as a product rather than hire you as a contractor to
build it.
They can shove the installation money thru another account so it won't
show up as a cost of the artwork- like city services or
maintainence...
However, often in 1% for art situations, they won't object to a little
over for a work they like because they are looking for ways to satisfy
the 1% requirement- they may have a huge pile of cash in escrow that
they are not allowed to touch and that MUST go to art, and be looking
for excuses to say they fulfilled the requirement.
But- more to the point, art is emotional- if they are picking your
work then someone must like it- if its abstract then they must REALLY
like it ( to risk public rejection, always a possibility with abstract
work )
I am not saying tell them 45k or else... I am saying go in there armed
with OPTIONS that can solve the financial issue for them.
Be competent, not flakey, be informed and have estimates in hand, and
simply express to them the cost of doing the work, and offer to work
with them to make it more affordable... i.e. Can THEY handle
fabrication if you provide a detailed model and plans? Can they buy it
outright to obviate the liability and extra man hours of dealing with
the City? Would they simply HIRE you on the books, temporarily , so
that you would be covered by their existing insurance plan? ( at your
desired salary, prorated ) Would they consdier allowing you to design
a similar work that would fit the budget? Will they allow YOU to
retain rights to selling additional pieces in the future-or smaller
editions of the design?
Be flexible and figure out a way to make them happy that satisfies
your needs.
If they complain about your design fee ( which they won't) just ask
them if all the City staff involved in the project will be getting
paid half their salary for the privilidge of working on art as well...
In short- present yourself as smart, easy to work with, professionally
competent and talented, and willing to work WITH them to solve their
problems, and they will likely work with you in return...
christopher
Sculptingman
> attach the base. My two options are either a concrete-filled (1 ton)
> base or a hollow base bolted to the concrete.
If its 15 feet tall and made of steel, then it has one HELL of a wind
load on it- If its not perfectly balanced over its attachment, then
that is an additional load. If kids can climb on it they will and
that's another load...You need to calculate the maximum potential
bending moment of the design versus the strength of the materials and
the weakest part of the design.
An engineer will calculate the loads and specify a mounting that will
suffice.
Even if you can get them to buy it outright- cover yourself by having
an engineer do the calcs on the piece and its mounting, and provide
that detail to however buys it.
> That's how it seems to me as well, but there really is no negociating
> their demands. If I say 'no', they would just say "NEXT"....
>
>
> >Bottom line, you have to decide as you know. What did the RFP state? Did
> >it have these conditions in it when you submitted your proposal? If not,
> >you could protest and if they attempt to drop you, you would have legal
> >recourse.
>
> I don't really have much legal recourse. This is going in my own
> county and I'd pretty much destroy my career locally if I did anything
> like that, especially for public art calls.
>
Don't be litigous- only lawyers come away happy from litigation, and
it eats your life- even if you win.
And Cities don't want to work with folks who talk "arbitration" and
"cause of action" even BEFORE they have been hired.
But, trust me- unless these guys have bought a LOT of public art
before, they are flying by the seat of their pants and EVERYTHING is
negotiable. Research this- read up on it- go in there knowing more
than they do about public art contracts...
christopher
Dan S
construction budget on art. Les'see, 30K x 100 = 3 million. A fairly
small project? But yes, all those requirements sound like they'll eat
your lunch. Spoken to an engr and an insurance guy yet?
What do we know about using big truck coil springs as mounts?
Dan
--
Dan Spector 901 323 8717
http://www.archicast.com/Lifecast-index1.html
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In article <g2ogk0p3aag4ad2uf...@4ax.com>, artist