"Of that ilk"
ma...@starnet.lenfest.com
misusing the term "of that ilk". Unless one has an estate of the same
name as one's surname, the term is meaningless. If one is American
citezen, one cannot hold an estate title(in the Old World sense -- i.e.
feudal), as this would violate the Constitution (Article I, Section 9,
if memory serves).
Ilk \Ilk\, a. [Scot. ilk, OE. ilke the same, AS. ilca. Cf. Each.]
Same; each; every. [Archaic] --Spenser.
Of that ilk, denoting that a person's surname and the title of his
estate are the same; as, Grant of that ilk,
i.e., Grant of Grant. --Jamieson.
--
Mark Clark Zawadzki
E. Pa. Director,
Mid-Atlantic Chapter
Clan Cameron
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steven Akins
ma...@starnet.lenfest.com wrote in message <814aft$68f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Some, who shall remain nameless (but initials are SA), have been
>misusing the term "of that ilk". Unless one has an estate of the same
>name as one's surname, the term is meaningless. If one is American
>citezen, one cannot hold an estate title(in the Old World sense -- i.e.
>feudal), as this would violate the Constitution (Article I, Section 9,
>if memory serves).
FYI - my legal name is "Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk" and appears as such
on all of my state and federal legal documents, including birth certificate,
social security card, driver's license, passport, etc. Not that any of that
is you business, but as you brought up the subject, I thought that I would
correct you in your mistaken notion that I am "misusing" my proper legal
name.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@sonet.net
SilntThnkr
>misusing the term "of that ilk". Unless one has an estate of the same
>name as one's surname, the term is meaningless. If one is American
>citezen, one cannot hold an estate title(in the Old World sense -- i.e.
>feudal), as this would violate the Constitution (Article I, Section 9,
>if memory serves).
>
>
>Same; each; every. [Archaic] --Spenser.
>
> Of that ilk, denoting that a person's surname and the title of his
>estate are the same; as, Grant of that ilk,
> i.e., Grant of Grant. --Jamieson.
>
>--
>Mark Clark Zawadzki
>E. Pa. Director,
>Mid-Atlantic Chapter
>Clan Cameron
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
I know that while not absolutly sematically correct, in many parts of thsi
country 'of that ilk' is used as a synonym for 'people like that'. Which is in
itself usually what you would say when you want to say 'poor white trash or
poor black trash' as the case may be, but you don't want to actually say the
insult. You would say "you know what I mean, people like that". I know up
north here in America 'of that ilk' definitly has a negative connotation.
Although admitidly it is rather old fashion expression. Now, I cannot imagine
Mr Akins is trying to insult himself. I am sure that where and how he was
raised it is either a compliment of some kind, or has a different conotation
totaly. Perhaps in its proper use he is refering to himself as Akins of Akins
(as in Clan Akins, since he is their 'chief'). Doesn't matter to me if he
calls himself Sittingbull or whatever, but I was wondering about it also.
-David of the Clan Gunn
SilntThnkr
>FYI - my legal name is "Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk" and appears as such
>on all of my state and federal legal documents, including birth certificate,
>social security card, driver's license, passport, etc. Not that any of that
>is you business, but as you brought up the subject, I thought that I would
>correct you in your mistaken notion that I am "misusing" my proper legal
>name.
>
>Steven Akins of that Ilk
>sja...@sonet.net
I am sure it is Mr Akins. I think his point ans question (as were min) were
not wheather you changed your name legaly. I could change my name to Doctor
David, but it will not make me a Doctor. I think he was asking you why you use
that name, when it is historically used for the purpose he mentioned. The
insinuation is that you are putting on false airs. Again, not that I care if
youcall yourself Pope Steven Akins, but I was wondering what the thought behind
the name change was.
Steven Akins
SilntThnkr wrote in message
<19991119160817...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
>I know that while not absolutly sematically correct, in many parts of thsi
>country 'of that ilk' is used as a synonym for 'people like that'. Which
is in
>itself usually what you would say when you want to say 'poor white trash or
>poor black trash' as the case may be, but you don't want to actually say
the
>insult. You would say "you know what I mean, people like that". I know up
>north here in America 'of that ilk' definitly has a negative connotation.
>Although admitidly it is rather old fashion expression. Now, I cannot
imagine
>Mr Akins is trying to insult himself. I am sure that where and how he was
>raised it is either a compliment of some kind, or has a different
conotation
>totaly. Perhaps in its proper use he is refering to himself as Akins of
Akins
>(as in Clan Akins, since he is their 'chief'). Doesn't matter to me if he
>calls himself Sittingbull or whatever, but I was wondering about it also.
>
>-David of the Clan Gunn
David,
My style of name is in fact indicative of the chiefship of my clan and is
indeed the same as saying "Akins of Akins". The use of the term "ilk" which
has its origin in the Scots venacular and is synonomous with the English
word "each" but is generally meant as "kind" "sort" or "type" in everyday
speech when not distinguished by capitalization, but it has a special
meaning when capitalized as to convey that the person bearing it is the head
or chief of his name/clan. It is not necessarily tied to the possession of
an estate from which the clan takes its name, but may be used to indicate
the head of the clan itself as the clan constitutes a community of its own
right, and as such it is borne by many Scottish chiefs as a part of their
proper and lawful name.
Bryn Fraser
<sja...@sonet.net> writes
>>misusing the term "of that ilk". Unless one has an estate of the same
>>name as one's surname, the term is meaningless. If one is American
>>citezen, one cannot hold an estate title(in the Old World sense -- i.e.
>>feudal), as this would violate the Constitution (Article I, Section 9,
>>if memory serves).
>
>
>on all of my state and federal legal documents, including birth certificate,
>social security card, driver's license, passport, etc. Not that any of that
>is you business, but as you brought up the subject, I thought that I would
>correct you in your mistaken notion that I am "misusing" my proper legal
>name.
I guess that would make you Mr Ilk.......
>
>
>
Bryn
Last twitch.........................
Steven Akins
Bryn Fraser wrote in message <1iw68EAy...@finhall.demon.co.uk>...
>I guess that would make you Mr Ilk.......
No, and I believe that you know better but are merely playing the fool for
the entertainment of others. On all legal documents "Akins of that Ilk" is
my surname; much the same as someone who bears a hyphenated surname such as
"Hope-Vere". They would not be referred to as "Mr. Vere" because Vere is
merely a portion of their surname. They would be "Mr. Hope-Vere" or "Miss
Hope-Vere" or whatever depending upon their gender, marital status, rank,
degree, etc. My full last name is "Akins of that Ilk".
James William Oliver
news:1iw68EAy...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
>
Or Ilkie to his friends...ahem...if they would care to show themselves...
James
Steven Akins
James William Oliver wrote in message ...
>Bryn Fraser <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> I guess that would make you Mr Ilk.......
>>
>>Bryn
>
>Or Ilkie to his friends...ahem...if they would care to show themselves...
>
>James
That would tend to confuse things, as there is also Aikenhead of that Ilk,
Aiton of that Ilk, Auchinleck of that Ilk, Belshes of that Ilk, Binning of
that Ilk, Blackadder of that Ilk, Blackstock of that Ilk, Cairns of that
Ilk, Caldwell of that Ilk, Clelland of that Ilk, Congilton of that Ilk,
Fenton of that Ilk, Fullarton of that Ilk, Garden of that Ilk, Gartshore of
that Ilk, Ged of that Ilk, Gladstanes of that Ilk, Glas of that Ilk, Glen of
that Ilk, Glendinning of that Ilk, Horsburgh of that Ilk, Kelly of that Ilk,
Kinnear of that Ilk, Kinninmont of that Ilk, Langlands of that Ilk, Logie of
that Ilk, McCorquodale of that Ilk, Meldrum of that Ilk, Moncur of that Ilk,
Newton of that Ilk, Norvel of that Ilk, Ochterlony of that Ilk, Orrock of
that Ilk, Pennycook of that Ilk, Pentland of that Ilk, Pitblado of that Ilk,
Porterfield of that Ilk, Preston of that Ilk, Ralston of that Ilk, Renton of
that Ilk, Roberton of that Ilk, Rossie of that Ilk, Russel of that Ilk,
Rutherford of that Ilk and of Edgerstoun, Skirving of that Ilk, Spottiswood
of that Ilk, Tennant of that Ilk, Walkinshaw of that Ilk, and Whitelaw of
that Ilk. So, you see it is quite necessary to specify the entire surname
when speaking of myself and my ilk.
Jorgen Junker
James William Oliver wrote in message ...
>Or Ilkie to his friends...ahem...if they would care to show themselves...
Dear Folks,
I am coming out as friend to our Steven - he as an individual has taken more
abuse at the hands of the others on this ng than I have seen in some time.
If he were being attacked for the color of his skin, you couldn't be more
pious in defending him...instead, you attack him for his beliefs, which he
has shown you voluntarily. He could easily hide and lurk, but instead he
has the courage to represent his convictions, which in the US are protected
by our constitution.
I pity those of you who feel impelled by your own fears to attack the
beliefs of others. Not only is it bad manners, it shows your hand rather
more than you realize.
In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right to
say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves
now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
I would appreciate reading this ng more if folks could stick to their
knitting and simply express their own ideas without having to jump all over
others. The obsession for setting others right is in itself an afflictive
disease...
KJ
John
Steven Akins <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
news:sLjZ3.122$Ri....@newsfeed.slurp.net...<snip>
> My style of name is in fact indicative of the chiefship of my clan and is
> indeed the same as saying "Akins of Akins". The use of the term "ilk"
which
> has its origin in the Scots venacular and is synonomous with the English
> word "each" but is generally meant as "kind" "sort" or "type" in everyday
> speech when not distinguished by capitalization, but it has a special
> meaning when capitalized as to convey that the person bearing it is the
head
> or chief of his name/clan. It is not necessarily tied to the possession of
> an estate from which the clan takes its name, but may be used to indicate
> the head of the clan itself as the clan constitutes a community of its own
> right, and as such it is borne by many Scottish chiefs as a part of their
> proper and lawful name.
Have you ever heard of that old Scottish term Hogwash? You are making up
your own history with its own language rules... My own Scottish mother god
rest her sole would say, of that Ilk meaning from that place, of that
nature... I could never conceive why a person call them selves of that
Ilk... It is nonsensical...
My son when he was about 8 wanted a name... Something others would never
forget... He chose Spike... Now that he is over 30, I often call him
Spike... He don't think it is funny anymore... Steve when you get a little
older, hopefully you too will realize the silliness of what you have done...
Have you no shame... Why are you trying to steal the glory of those who
have earned it?
Don't you realize that your own accomplishment will mean more to you and
your children than anything that you have pirated away from someone else?
Did you change that children's names too? That surely will be considered
child abuse? You should just have done what the man did in the Old Johnny
Cash son did. Named yourself Sue, you certainly would have gotten at least
as much attention, and you would not have the need to ride the coat tails of
far greater men from history.
You degrade that which you wish to emulate. You have reduced them to your
level which is some what lower than that of a snake...
Iain...
Steven Akins
Och now, Ms. Junker, dinna trouble yoursel! As you can plainly see one of me
can easily take on ten or twelve of the likes o' them with no worries at
all. I just fool around with these pansy lads, jerk their chains a wee bit ,
to keep them from rambling on incessantly about whether they take their
porridge with salt or milk, or what bunch of kilty lads are bellowing their
pipes at the next tattoo. Faith, their damn minds would be as soft as their
arses if I didna gie them their daily round o' intercourse!
Steven Akins
John wrote in message ...
>
>Have you ever heard of that old Scottish term Hogwash? You are making up
>your own history with its own language rules... My own Scottish mother god
>rest her sole
Pardon me for asking, but was your mother an old shoe?
John
Jorgen Junker <j-kj...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:814psb$lb5$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net...
>
<Snip>
> Dear Folks,
>
> I am coming out as friend to our Steven - he as an individual has taken
more
> abuse at the hands of the others on this ng than I have seen in some time.
> If he were being attacked for the color of his skin, you couldn't be more
> pious in defending him...instead, you attack him for his beliefs, which he
> has shown you voluntarily. He could easily hide and lurk, but instead he
> has the courage to represent his convictions, which in the US are
protected
> by our constitution.
Your Steven's friend because he is attacked by everyone on this ng? Where
have you been? This twerp has preached his self rightous bigotry, and when
anyone choses to answer, they are insulted. When he responds to some one
who disagrees with him, he does so, through inuendo, and vulgarity.
When I called him on it, he explained that words do not have the same
meaning to him as they do to other people. He does not see any word as
being vulgar, in his words they are all of equal weight...
Because he has the (as you call it) courage to voice his convictions, doen't
make him any less a bigoted bragart who currupts history to his own end...
As you say he has the constitutional right to voice his opinion. His rights
end however at my fence.
>
> I pity those of you who feel impelled by your own fears to attack the
> beliefs of others. Not only is it bad manners, it shows your hand rather
> more than you realize.
We are not attacking the beliefs of others... We are attacking the stupidity
of one person who will say anything to provoke a response from others on
this ng. I have heard others say that they understand why he has made one
or more statements... They also have been attacked by Steven as a result...
>
> In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right to
> say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves
> now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
> literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
Steven is the one who stated that he would drag someone to death until his
head poped off. Where do you get the idea that that was promigated by a
different member of this group. You need to improve your reading skills, or
find what problem you have with your ISP, as you are not getting all the
posted messages from Steven Akins of that Ilk...
> I would appreciate reading this ng more if folks could stick to their
> knitting and simply express their own ideas without having to jump all
over
> others. The obsession for setting others right is in itself an afflictive
> disease...
> KJ
>
I have been reading this ng for sometime, it is seldom that Steven of that
Ilk trys gives answers to all who write here. His knowledge is no more vast
than mine, however in his case, if he don't have a good answer, he makes one
up, than spends days trying to make it the truth, often saying it a little
different over and over, until he feels no longer responsible for the
origional remark...
Iain...
Steven Akins
John wrote in message <#0fkQnvM$GA.135@cpmsnbbsa03>...
>Steven is the one who stated that he would drag someone to death until his
>head poped off. Where do you get the idea that that was promigated by a
>different member of this group. You need to improve your reading skills,
or
>find what problem you have with your ISP, as you are not getting all the
>posted messages from Steven Akins of that Ilk...
John, I believe that your reading skills are as poor as your spelling
skills. I never made that statement. If you will go back to that original
posting which you are referring to, I was merely stating that someone who
showed their ignorance by calling me a "redneck" wouldn't recognize a real
redneck if one were to "hoodwink him, beat the sh*t out of him, and drag him
behind his pickup truck until his head popped off". I never insinuated that
I was the sort of person who would do such a thing, but rather it was some
of the likes of you who made that insinuation. I merely stated that he was
mistaking me for the kind of person who would likely be apt to carry out
such behavior. You are the one who needs to improve your reading skills,
John. Obviously they are not up to par.
Jorgen Junker
John wrote in message <#0fkQnvM$GA.135@cpmsnbbsa03>...
Not because he is attacked, but because I defend his right to his opinion...
Where
>have you been?
In the hospital having major surgery from which I am just now
recovering...but don't worry, I haven't missed the gist of the interchange
on this ng...I don't necessarily agree with Steven, I just don't really
think that each thread need become a reaction to something he says...
This twerp has preached his self rightous bigotry, and when
>anyone choses to answer, they are insulted. When he responds to some one
>who disagrees with him, he does so, through inuendo, and vulgarity.
>
That might be true, I may not agree with what he says, but I will defend to
the death his right to say it! It's just that everyone here has become so
easily distracted by things which have so little relation to discussion of
Scottish clans...and folks have fallen into the temptation of being taken
off the main point by tactical diversion. It's a trick used a lot in high
school debate...when a person can't really come up with anything substantial
to say they will resort to attacks on their opponent. (Yawn....) Boring....
I have read the content of some his posts and I actually find his comments
on certain subjects to be in agreement with my own findings, particularly in
the area of religion. I have spent many years as a researcher in the area
of new religions and am somewhat protective of the rights of those people
who may not be part of a large, publicly acknowledged belief system. It's
an American ideal of mine, though and I understand those who have no
experience of the American system of democracy. My husband's father is one
of the country's experts on the constitution and I have become fond of it,
while amazed at the range of protection it can provide even for people I
think suck. I haven't found Steven to be any more insulting than most, but
I tend to read like a scientist, not taking things personally just because I
disagree.
I'm just amazed at how much of this ng has become about SA.
>When I called him on it, he explained that words do not have the same
>meaning to him as they do to other people. He does not see any word as
>being vulgar, in his words they are all of equal weight...
I didn't see the vulgarity...but then I've been off in hospital for a while.
Still, there is no excuse for being rude and I would rather read remarks
which have some interest to me as opinion or fact. In the academic world,
we have much dissent, but the attacks are also much subtler...i.e. "My
colleague appears to have done his research in a bucket", rather than coming
right out and calling someone a moron.
>
>Because he has the (as you call it) courage to voice his convictions,
doen't
>make him any less a bigoted bragart who currupts history to his own end...
>As you say he has the constitutional right to voice his opinion. His
rights
>end however at my fence.
>
Exactly...
>
>> I pity those of you who feel impelled by your own fears to attack the
>> beliefs of others. Not only is it bad manners, it shows your hand rather
>> more than you realize.
>
>We are not attacking the beliefs of others... We are attacking the
stupidity
>of one person who will say anything to provoke a response from others on
>this ng. I have heard others say that they understand why he has made one
>or more statements... They also have been attacked by Steven as a result...
I don't get the sense that SA says things just to get a response...I think
the emotions are the responsibility of the reader in a lot of what he
says...I have a very emotional response to some of his statements, but I
don't delude myself into thinking I'm important enough to SA for him to be
sitting up nights thinking of ways he can do that to me! Nor should his
opinions be of enough importance to me to prompt me to make remarks that
only serve to make me look as if I am not fully in control of my faculties.
>
>>
>> In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right
to
>> say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of
ourselves
>> now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
>> literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
>
>Steven is the one who stated that he would drag someone to death until his
>head poped off. Where do you get the idea that that was promigated by a
>different member of this group. You need to improve your reading skills,
I didn't realize SA had mentioned anything about dragging...strangely
enough, I was making that statement completely independently of SA and his
ideas....and it didn't refer to anyone else on the ng, it was meant as a
generalization, an opinion of my own. My reading skills may not need as
much improvement as you suggest...I simply choose not to follow all the
threads...my life is very full without having to hang on every word thrown
out in reaction to what I view as a non-event. FYI, I tested in the 99th
percentile in verbal ability on the GRE. That means I read ( and use the
English language) better than most folks. But I try not to act all
uppity...
>>
>I have been reading this ng for sometime, it is seldom that Steven of that
>Ilk trys gives answers to all who write here. His knowledge is no more
vast
>than mine, however in his case, if he don't have a good answer, he makes
one
>up, than spends days trying to make it the truth, often saying it a little
>different over and over, until he feels no longer responsible for the
>origional remark...
I appreciate the creative life...I am a writer myself. I often fabricate
details, fictionalize fact and make up stories. It is a skill which was
regarded very highly in the ancient Celtic world. In the old days, they had
sure fire ways of finding out if someone was lying, though, which we no
longer employ. Still, I am greatly entertained by a good yarn...I don't
give a rat's ass if someone is making it up. Oh, dear...I fear I may have
uttered a vulgarity...but it's so colorful, dont' you think it lends
something to the discussion? Gives it a little spice?
>
>Iain...
>
Now, Iain, is that your REAL name, or an affectation? <G>
Please don't think I'm defending SA because I think he needs my help...he'd
probably hate me if he knew me and my overtly liberal life...I'm not his
bosom pal, but I'd uphold his right to hold his own opinion even if he was
Canadian- it shows his brain isn't dead with dogma. I haven't seen many
thoughtful responses to SA, just a lot of reaction. It takes a lot more
effort to take control of one's emotions and think things through, it takes
more intelligence. This is my Americanism showing, though. If I were not
living in a society which values freedom, I'd prbably be advocating getting
rid of anyone who doesn't believe as I do...as it is, I can simply put them
in the twit filter and not have to have any unpleasant differences in my
life.
I do value this conversation, John, but I would appreciate it if you could
refrain from calling me stupid. I am not and neither are you. KJ
Steven Akins
Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <383606A1...@home.com>...
>You are far too much the
>cowardly slip of a girl better suited to prattling your particular blend
>of bovine wit on usenet than walking around the streets with a placard
>stating what you feel.
Well, Sean, I don't walk around the streets with a placard stating how I
feel because, for one I have better things to do, and secondly I generally
keep my opinions to myself until questioned about them. The fact that I am
answering your rather petty little rant is merely because the novelty of
communicating in this manner holds something of a fascination for me. I
suppose is a sort of substitute for an aquarium or an ant-farm, but with the
added interest that I am able to interact on an intellectual level with the
creatures on the other side of the glass, and see their different
personalities express themselves. One can almost identify certain posters by
the way they word their messages without bothering to look at their name.
You are all fascinating subjects to me and represent a somewhat varied range
of personalities. In everyday life we are not as apt to get off on tangents
of this sort, which reveal something deeper than what we normally show to
others in the real world. I think that here there is more of a tendency to
let everything hang out so that the true character is revealed, be it
mundane, optimistic, rationalistic, egotistic, or whatever. One can also
learn more about themselves by seeing how their beliefs and ways of looking
at things compare with those of others. It is a good way of testing the
water, so to speak. But then one wonders how truly representative this slice
of the population actually is, as only a certain portion of society spends
its time with diversions of this sort. Well, it is interesting to say the
least, and your idealistic, though often immature, postings are part of what
makes this ng such an interesting subject to study.
Steven Akins
Steven Akins
Sean MacUisdin
>
> James William Oliver wrote in message ...
>
> >Or Ilkie to his friends...ahem...if they would care to show themselves...
>
>
> I am coming out as friend to our Steven - he as an individual has taken more
> abuse at the hands of the others on this ng than I have seen in some time.
> If he were being attacked for the color of his skin, you couldn't be more
> pious in defending him...instead, you attack him for his beliefs, which he
> has shown you voluntarily. He could easily hide and lurk, but instead he
> has the courage to represent his convictions, which in the US are protected
> by our constitution.
There is a fine line between courage and stupidity.
As well, your constitution does not govern international usenet.
> I pity those of you who feel impelled by your own fears to attack the
> beliefs of others. Not only is it bad manners, it shows your hand rather
> more than you realize.
That's an easy answer isn't it? If you attack those whose beliefs you
disagree with, you are simply revealing the depths of your own bigotry.
Is that right? Hmmmmmmm
I am bigoted against racists.
I am bigoted against pedophiles
I am bigoted against rapists
I am bigoted against murderers...
Need I go on? I profess my bigotry.
> In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right to
> say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves
> now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
> literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
Keep in mind this is usenet, not the USA.
> I would appreciate reading this ng more if folks could stick to their
> knitting and simply express their own ideas without having to jump all over
> others. The obsession for setting others right is in itself an afflictive
> disease...
> KJ
Are you not trying to set us right with this posting?
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
"But the howling of dogs beside me,
And the wail of the old heroes,
And the weeping of the woman turns,
'Tis that vexes my heart."
"Hey sexy moma, wanna kill all humans?" - Bender
Sean MacUisdin
> John, I believe that your reading skills are as poor as your spelling
> skills. I never made that statement. If you will go back to that original
> posting which you are referring to, I was merely stating that someone who
> showed their ignorance by calling me a "redneck" wouldn't recognize a real
> redneck if one were to "hoodwink him, beat the sh*t out of him, and drag him
> behind his pickup truck until his head popped off". I never insinuated that
> I was the sort of person who would do such a thing, but rather it was some
> of the likes of you who made that insinuation.
No, you're right you are not capable of it. You are far too much the
cowardly slip of a girl better suited to prattling your particular blend
of bovine wit on usenet than walking around the streets with a placard
stating what you feel.
Mewing, bleating, pathetic little coward.
Don't leave, I laugh at you every time you post, princess.
Robert McKay
>From: "Jorgen Junker" j-kj...@worldnet.att.net
>Date: Fri, 19 November 1999 07:25 PM EST
>I am coming out as friend to our Steven - he as an individual has taken more
>abuse at the hands of the others on this ng than I have seen in some time.
>If he were being attacked for the color of his skin, you couldn't be more
>pious in defending him...instead, you attack him for his beliefs, which he
>has shown you voluntarily. He could easily hide and lurk, but instead he
>has the courage to represent his convictions, which in the US are protected
>by our constitution.
He has made claims that are palpably false - that's called lying. He has
demonstrated bigotry - that's called being a scumbag. If you wish to stand by
a bigoted liar that's your privilege. Just don't be surprised when civilized
people oppose such garbage.
Robert McKay/Raibeart MacAoidh
AOL - Goffs California
E-mail - goffsca...@aol.com
November 7, 1999 - Baltimore Ravens 41, Cleveland Browns 9
SilntThnkr
to contribute to this. I checked this NG at 6:00 (CST) this evening and read
everything. Ileft and came back at 9:00 (CST) and there were 12 posts just on
this topic. I am not suprised the topic was Mr Akins.
Louis Epstein
:
: ma...@starnet.lenfest.com wrote in message <814aft$68f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
: > Some, who shall remain nameless (but initials are SA), have been
: >misusing the term "of that ilk". Unless one has an estate of the same
: >name as one's surname, the term is meaningless. If one is American
: >citezen, one cannot hold an estate title(in the Old World sense -- i.e.
: >feudal), as this would violate the Constitution (Article I, Section 9,
: >if memory serves).
:
:
: FYI - my legal name is "Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk" and appears as such
: on all of my state and federal legal documents, including birth certificate,
Was your birth registered under this name,
or have you pursued amendment subsequently?
Makes a world of difference in determining
whether the usage is an affectation!!
: social security card, driver's license, passport, etc. Not that any of that
: is you business, but as you brought up the subject, I thought that I would
: correct you in your mistaken notion that I am "misusing" my proper legal
: name.
:
: Steven Akins of that Ilk
: sja...@sonet.net
Robert McKay
>Date: Fri, 19 November 1999 10:53 PM EST
I've said my piece to the "friend," who strikes me as sounding very much like
the troll; I have to wonder...
I again wish that I didn't even have to read about him; I certainly don't read
what he posts, having long ago worn out the entertainment value of utter
balderdash.
James William Oliver
> >cowardly slip of a girl better suited to prattling your particular
blend
> >of bovine wit on usenet than walking around the streets with a placard
> >stating what you feel.
>
>
> sja...@sonet.net
So the folks on this ng are an interesting study are they? I think its
probably the other way around. Seeing you fall into argumentative
elephant traps constantly and show off your ingnorance gives me particular
pleasure I have to say. Certainly some people are affronted by your
obtuse ramblings more than others, but they just have to learn that you're
a fool and to treat you as such.
At this point, I'm reminded of a 17th or 18th (I forget which) century
Astronomer called Tycho Brahe. He was a very odd man with some strange
beliefs and amoungst other things kept a pet Drawf called Jep. I feel
that it may be a good idea for this news group to be the first to adopt a
pet troll. Why not. It can be fed occasionally and because this is an
exceptionally stupid one, can also provide entertainment. Given time we
could perhaps train it to do tricks and house train it, preventing all
these accidents of verbal diohria (sorry about spelling, you get the idea)
and maybe even come to appreciate its bumbling nature.
James
Sean MacUisdin
> Well, Sean, I don't walk around the streets with a placard stating how I
> feel because, for one I have better things to do, and secondly I generally
> keep my opinions to myself until questioned about them.
(snip the blah blah blah)
Coward. Pathetic bleating little coward.
You grow more laughable every day, Steven.
James William Oliver
James William Oliver <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.96.991120140957.6772A-100000@psych...
>
> Steven Akins <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
> news:5doZ3.109$Cs....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> >
> > Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <383606A1...@home.com>...
> >
> > >You are far too much the
> > >cowardly slip of a girl better suited to prattling your particular
> blend
> > >stating what you feel.
> >
> >
> > Well, Sean, I don't walk around the streets with a placard stating how I
> > feel because, for one I have better things to do, and secondly I
> generally
Of course, Tycho kept a pet Dwarf rather than "Drawf". Sorry.
James
Steven Akins
Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <3836AD1D...@home.com>...
>You grow more laughable every day, Steven.
And you more juvenile, Sean.
Bryn Fraser
<j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes
Are you absolutely certain it was not a troll....
>
>James
>
>
Bryn Fraser
To the Phenomenologist, legend is an artifact.
John
>
<big snip>
>
> John, I believe that your reading skills are as poor as your spelling
> skills. I never made that statement. If you will go back to that original
> posting which you are referring to, I was merely stating that someone who
> showed their ignorance by calling me a "redneck" wouldn't recognize a real
> redneck if one were to "hoodwink him, beat the sh*t out of him, and drag
him
> behind his pickup truck until his head popped off". I never insinuated
that
> I was the sort of person who would do such a thing, but rather it was some
> mistaking me for the kind of person who would likely be apt to carry out
> such behavior. You are the one who needs to improve your reading skills,
> John. Obviously they are not up to par.
>
> sja...@sonet.net
Steven,
It is apparent your Writing Skills are the problem. I was not the only
one who read that you were that type person... As for my Spelling Skills...
I never claimed them to be of perfect English... nor well educated... I
never have made claim to anything that I am not... It really shouldnea
bother you with your professed hatred of the English, and things English...
(Or will you attribute that to my poor reading skills as well?)
You certainly have a twisted outlook on the world. First you profess
bigotry, and then you give examples of your bigotry. You then lay the blame
for the way you are on others, now you seem to think that it is my fault
that you are miss understood...
Iain...
John
<snip>
> In the hospital having major surgery from which I am just now
> recovering...but don't worry, I haven't missed the gist of the interchange
> on this ng...I don't necessarily agree with Steven, I just don't really
> think that each thread need become a reaction to something he says...
>
<snip>
>
> That might be true, I may not agree with what he says, but I will defend
to
> the death his right to say it!
to carry on a civil conversation... Likely because he feels I am a mere Lab
Rat...
> I have read the content of some his posts and I actually find his
comments
> on certain subjects to be in agreement with my own findings, particularly
in
> the area of religion.
I do not, however I have not taken issue with his beliefs. I take issue
with his berating of others... I supose that I sould just wheather away into
the sunset... SA does not bother me, I do like to read his response... I
spend much of my time reading the law... It is amazing to me... I am not a
well educated learned person, and the only high score I ever got was on my
Blood test (A+)...
<snip>
>
<snip>
> I didn't see the vulgarity...but then I've been off in hospital for a
while.
> Still, there is no excuse for being rude and I would rather read remarks
> which have some interest to me as opinion or fact. In the academic world,
> we have much dissent, but the attacks are also much subtler...i.e. "My
> colleague appears to have done his research in a bucket", rather than
coming
> right out and calling someone a moron.
I use some vulgarity in my speach, and have debated its use as the norm in
some cases... I however do not expect it to be used in a serious written
debate... Passion is a part of debate, it adds fuel and fire... In the
written word... it adds noncense...
<snip>
> I don't get the sense that SA says things just to get a response...I think
> the emotions are the responsibility of the reader in a lot of what he
> says...I have a very emotional response to some of his statements, but I
> don't delude myself into thinking I'm important enough to SA for him to be
> sitting up nights thinking of ways he can do that to me!
>
Mr Akins professes to do just that... he so enjoys us under his glass... it
is likely that he likes it this way due to experences which have not turned
out favorable for him in his past dealings... This medium is an outlet for a
lot of people... I truely feel sorry for SA... In my minds eye, I see a
small deformed person, likely confined to bed, or at least a wheel chair...
His grasp of things in life are unrealistic... His demonstrated idealism as
shown in this ng is an odity...
<snip>
>
<snip>
> generalization, an opinion of my own. My reading skills may not need as
> much improvement as you suggest...I simply choose not to follow all the
> threads...my life is very full without having to hang on every word thrown
> out in reaction to what I view as a non-event. FYI, I tested in the 99th
> percentile in verbal ability on the GRE. That means I read ( and use the
> English language) better than most folks. But I try not to act all
> uppity...
Aye but you managed to anyway VBG... My personal abilities are limited. I
am a disable american veteran... I have a full life despite my short
commings... My language skill are lacking, although I have spent much time
over the years in writting. (have had 5 technical books published, by the
US department of defense, over the last 30 years)
<snip>
>
> I appreciate the creative life...I am a writer myself. I often fabricate
> details, fictionalize fact and make up stories. It is a skill which was
> regarded very highly in the ancient Celtic world. In the old days, they
had
> sure fire ways of finding out if someone was lying, though, which we no
> longer employ. Still, I am greatly entertained by a good yarn...I don't
> give a rat's ass if someone is making it up. Oh, dear...I fear I may have
> uttered a vulgarity...but it's so colorful, dont' you think it lends
> something to the discussion? Gives it a little spice?
I love a good story too... I have told many myself... However I have not
made the attempt to promigate them into the truth...
<snip>
>
>
> Now, Iain, is that your REAL name, or an affectation? <G>
>
Why yes it is and no it isn't... That was, is my christened name on the
Brit Club...
<snip>
> I do value this conversation, John, but I would appreciate it if you could
> refrain from calling me stupid. I am not and neither are you. KJ
As do I or I would not respond to you...
Iain..
Steven Akins
John wrote in message ...
>Mr Akins professes to do just that... he so enjoys us under his glass... it
>is likely that he likes it this way due to experences which have not turned
>out favorable for him in his past dealings... This medium is an outlet for
a
>lot of people... I truely feel sorry for SA... In my minds eye, I see a
>small deformed person, likely confined to bed, or at least a wheel chair...
>His grasp of things in life are unrealistic... His demonstrated idealism
as
>shown in this ng is an odity...
Well you do have a vivid imagination don't you, John? Well, allow me to
dispell these misconceptions for you. I am hardly the withered, inactive
sort of person of your strange imaginings. I am 33 years old, I have two
children, my son Alexander is 3, and my daughter Morgan is 1. My wife and I
have been married for ten years and I work in the historical restoration
field, which often involves work of a physically demanding sort. I am a
member of my local genealogical society and Scottish heritage association,
and I am the founder of the Heart of Dixie Highland Games which were held
the first time this past April. I have been involved with Scottish culture
for some 11 or 12 years, and three years ago I founded the Clan Akins
Society and serve as its president and Chief. I have written two books,
"Celtic Pagan Religion - A Narrative History", and "From Dunakin's Distant
Shadow - The Story of the Akins Clan" as well as a number of short works of
poetry which I have not published. My interests include architecture,
antiques, history, I am fond of the outdoors, enjoy hiking, and I support
the protection of the wilderness. So, don't delude yourself into thinking
that I am some bed-ridden vegetable pecking away at my keyboard because its
the only thing I'm capable of doing. For me it is a diversion, a way of
keeping mentally active, much like someone who works crossword puzzels. I
enjoy the interaction of communicating with others who have similar
interests and are knowledgeable in regard to some of the more arcane and
archaic subjects which I study, even when this sometimes leads to heated
discussions such as we have all been privy to of late. While many of my
ideas and beliefs may be considered controversial by the mainstream of
society, I am not all together quite as radical as I am sometimes
exaggerated into being, and yes I'm not beyond playing the devil's advocate
for the sake of making things more interesting, so a grain of salt may be
called for occassionally when reading some of my more off-hand comments, as
I am usually just amusing myself by stirring up the ant-hill.
RMBlack
Do not wear your heart on your sleaves.
That is sound advice....believe me.
The Glenallan
Glen...@clydesdale.freeserve.co.uk
-------------------
John <LOGG...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:uiDq$75M$GA.231@cpmsnbbsa03...
John
<snip>
> Well you do have a vivid imagination don't you, John? Well, allow me to
> dispell these misconceptions for you. I am hardly the withered, inactive
> sort of person of your strange imaginings
Sorry, you have done nothing for the image you have painted to me... Your
physical image may not fit the image you have painted, but your id certainly
has...
> member of my local genealogical society and Scottish heritage association,
> and I am the founder of the Heart of Dixie Highland Games which were held
> the first time this past April. I have been involved with Scottish culture
> for some 11 or 12 years, and three years ago I founded the Clan Akins
> Society and serve as its president and Chief. I have written two books,
I certainly hope that you have not festered you beliefs by using the
Scottish Highland Clan, games and ideologies. I can see where you could be
the person who founded the Society, but it leaves me the idea that you have
been appointed Chief of the Clan... Has this position really been
recognized or proclaimed.
<sniped to save bytes>
> exaggerated into being, and yes I'm not beyond playing the devil's
advocate
> for the sake of making things more interesting, so a grain of salt may be
> called for occasionally when reading some of my more off-hand comments, as
> I am usually just amusing myself by stirring up the ant-hill.
>
Again with the ants... I am interested in the workings of the minds of
people like you... People who chose to impose themselves onto others
thoughts and ideas... showing no regard for the peoples feelings... Saying
things that offend merely for their own amusement... Do you not see that
you are demonstrating your handy-cap... one that keeps you from seeing
others as equals... You profess that there is no god... but seem to try to
pass yourself off as a supreme being... You seem to think that it is your
mission to propagate your personal beliefs... Who gave you that mission...
Certainly not the god that you do not know... You can not be god,
remember... you would not exist in your own little world...
Iain...
THreeBoaRS
<snip for brevity>
>At this point, I'm reminded of a 17th or 18th (I forget which) century
>Astronomer called Tycho Brahe.
Brahe, Tycho 1546 -- 1601
Astronomer, born in Knudstrup, Sweden. In 1573 he discovered serious errors in
the astronomical tables, and commenced work to rectify this by observing the
stars and planets with unprecedented positional accuracy. He rejected the
Copernican theory, but it fell to Kepler to show this model to be essentially
correct, using Brahe's data.
-------------------
"Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects."
- Will Rogers
David Thorpe
John wrote in message ...
>
><snip>
>> My style of name is in fact indicative of the chiefship of my clan and is
>> indeed the same as saying "Akins of Akins". The use of the term "ilk"
>which
>> has its origin in the Scots venacular and is synonomous with the English
>> word "each" but is generally meant as "kind" "sort" or "type" in everyday
>> speech when not distinguished by capitalization, but it has a special
>> meaning when capitalized as to convey that the person bearing it is the
>head
>> or chief of his name/clan. It is not necessarily tied to the possession
of
>> an estate from which the clan takes its name, but may be used to indicate
>> the head of the clan itself as the clan constitutes a community of its
own
>> right, and as such it is borne by many Scottish chiefs as a part of their
>> proper and lawful name.
>
(snip)
>Have you no shame... Why are you trying to steal the glory of those who
>have earned it?
>
>Don't you realize that your own accomplishment will mean more to you and
>your children than anything that you have pirated away from someone else?
>Did you change that children's names too? That surely will be considered
>child abuse? You should just have done what the man did in the Old Johnny
>Cash son did. Named yourself Sue, you certainly would have gotten at least
>as much attention, and you would not have the need to ride the coat tails
of
>far greater men from history.
>
>You degrade that which you wish to emulate. You have reduced them to your
>level which is some what lower than that of a snake...
>
>Iain...
>
Hang on, we've just been through all this - I would have thought he'd be
able to get away with it on the basis that it's a North American Scottish
tradition..............
David
CandL Garrett
David Thorpe <skybl...@freeuk.com> wrote in article >
> John wrote in message ...
> >
> >Steven Akins <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
Touché.....!
But..........
........*is* it an North American Scottish tradition......?
:-)
Lena G
sout...@bellsouth.net
Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best-laid schemes..."
Steven Akins
John wrote in message ...
>Again with the ants... I am interested in the workings of the minds of
>people like you... People who chose to impose themselves onto others
>thoughts and ideas... showing no regard for the peoples feelings... Saying
>things that offend merely for their own amusement... Do you not see that
>you are demonstrating your handy-cap... one that keeps you from seeing
>others as equals... You profess that there is no god... but seem to try to
>pass yourself off as a supreme being... You seem to think that it is your
>mission to propagate your personal beliefs... Who gave you that mission...
>Certainly not the god that you do not know... You can not be god,
>remember... you would not exist in your own little world...
>Iain...
As gods, or deities of whatever gender or description, are merely man's
futile attempt at comprehending the natural powers abiding within the
universe and projecting onto them a parental authority as a means or
establishing an imagined relationship between himself and that which he
cannot fully understand, man's deities truly are subordinate to him. Case in
point, the deity of the Christian religion, which is based upon a human
being referred to as Jesus Christ, who was born about 3 B.C. and died about
30 A.D., was of Middle-Eastern Semitic origin, spoke the Hebrew language,
and was of a physical trait which was most certainly of a short, dark
complicated, black-haired, brown or black-eyed nature. This actual
historical personage whose mortal remains were recently uncovered in a
family crypt along with those of his parents in a Jerusalem burial site a
year or two ago, bears almost no resemblance to the imagined deity which he
has been transformed into by his worshippers who view him as being a tall,
pale-complexioned European-type man with blue eyes and light-brown hair and
beard. Thus this popular deity is nothing more than the product of the human
imagination, as is much of the literature surrounding him.
If my realization of the fact that I, as a human being, am among the
highest evolved creatures which inhabit this planet, capable of determining
untold actions of unfathomable consequences to the world around me - able to
create anything including life itself, given time and facilities to do so -
and equally capable of horrendous destruction which could easily extinguish
all life from the face of this planet, then I suggest to you that it is
these facts (which are true of the human race in general and not merely
myself in particular) which cause you to be uncomfortable, and the fact that
I am aware of these things and don't mind discussing them at the drop of a
hat is troubling to you, as you evidently prefer to live in an insulated
environment which is a cocoon made up of your adopted delusions and myths
which you have probably been fed since a child and have been comforted with
to the point of hesitating to leave it and step out into the fresh air of
reality.
SilntThnkr
>> >
Making up your own clan and calling yoself the Clan Chief and THEN
callingyoself OF THAT IRK and THEN trying to pass it all off as recognized by
the normal authorities (I.E. the Lord Lyon) is NOT an American tradition. What
we have here in America (and other countries are Clan Societies. If Mr Akins
were to say he started a Clan Akins Society and he was the president then he
could probably get recognition outsode of his neighborhood. And I am sure you
are very aware of all of this already David. So be nice. Forgive me if I seem
a little put out, but Mr Akins offends many Americans as we do not want to be
characterized after his fashion and it hits a sore spot.
SilntThnkr
And while Tycho was VERY wierd, there is no arguring with the fact that he did
the most accurate star charts ever recorded. In fact they were so good, that
they were used almost unchanged up untill modern times. He was the very
parigon of the slow, steady scientist working for his whole life without real
reward, who helped change the way we see the world.
Steven Akins
SilntThnkr wrote in message
<19991121115252...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
>Making up your own clan and calling yoself the Clan Chief and THEN
>callingyoself OF THAT IRK and THEN trying to pass it all off as recognized
by
>the normal authorities (I.E. the Lord Lyon) is NOT an American tradition.
What
>we have here in America (and other countries are Clan Societies. If Mr
Akins
>were to say he started a Clan Akins Society and he was the president then
he
>could probably get recognition outsode of his neighborhood. And I am sure
you
>are very aware of all of this already David. So be nice. Forgive me if I
seem
>a little put out, but Mr Akins offends many Americans as we do not want to
be
>characterized after his fashion and it hits a sore spot.
>-David of the Clan Gunn
Well, David, spit it out man! What exactly is it that "puts you out"? Is it
the fact that I have taken an obscure armigerous family of Scottish origins
and regimented it into a hierachial structure recognizable as a Clan and
taken the title of Chief by virtue of the fact that it is precisely that
position which I fulfil? Is it the fact that the organizational body of the
Clan Akins Society is supported by well over 100 member families in Alabama,
Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, British Columbia, England, Florida, Iowa, Idaho,
Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi,
Missouri, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Ontario,
Oregon, South Carolina and Washington which are "outside my own
neighborhood" as you put it? Is it the fact that the Akins Clan tartan and
crest badge are now produced in Scotland and are purchased and proudly worn
by the members of our clan? Is it the fact that we have Clan Akins
Commissioners which set up Clan tents at various Highland Games throughout
the country alongside the Clan Gunn? Just exactly what is it that irks you
about Steven Akins of that Ilk and his Clan? I think it is probably the fact
that I had the audacity to do something on my own, instead of lamely
following someone else. I am in a unique position and you are not, so it is
all sour grapes to you, as the fox said when he finally realized that what
he wanted was beyond his grasp. Well, David, the grapes taste plenty sweet
to me!
SilntThnkr
will not repeat myself. I did not read your post and will not get into a NG
argument with you. I am not interested in it.
Steven Akins
SilntThnkr wrote in message
<19991121131314...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
Aye, definately a case of sour grapes syndrome.
Sean MacUisdin
Unlikely. It's more of a case of ignoring your tedious mewing.
--
John
Steven Akins wrote in message
> As gods, or deities of whatever gender or description, are merely
man's
> futile attempt at comprehending the natural powers abiding within the
> universe and projecting onto them a parental authority as a means or
> establishing an imagined relationship between himself and that which he
<Sniped For brevity>
And the proceeding was in response to what? Certainly not a worthy answer to
what I wrote? Follow the thread... Its ok to add to the thought... First
you should anwer with a sensible conclusion... When you didnea understand
what I wrote, the you should admit it, before the attempt to give an answer
that you thought I might have been looking for... You come off sounding
like a crack pot!
Iain...
James William Oliver
<Large snip for sanity>
> I am aware of these things and don't mind discussing them at the drop of a
> hat is troubling to you, as you evidently prefer to live in an insulated
> environment which is a cocoon made up of your adopted delusions and myths
> which you have probably been fed since a child and have been comforted
with
> to the point of hesitating to leave it and step out into the fresh air of
> reality.
You are lecturing other people about living in an "adopted world of
delusions and myths". Akins, you've got some cheek. Perhaps you should
leave your own fantasy world before telling others to do so.
James Oliver
sout...@bellsouth.net
His brothers)was found in a family tomb.Strange that I have heard nothing about
this,and apparently no other Christian has either,you'd think we would pick up
on news like that.You are a pathetic little person who *needs* to do anything
for attention.You have my pity,but never my respect.
Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best-laid schemes..."
Steven Akins wrote:
> John wrote in message ...
>
> >Again with the ants... I am interested in the workings of the minds of
> >people like you... People who chose to impose themselves onto others
> >thoughts and ideas... showing no regard for the peoples feelings... Saying
> >things that offend merely for their own amusement... Do you not see that
> >you are demonstrating your handy-cap... one that keeps you from seeing
> >others as equals... You profess that there is no god... but seem to try to
> >pass yourself off as a supreme being... You seem to think that it is your
> >mission to propagate your personal beliefs... Who gave you that mission...
> >Certainly not the god that you do not know... You can not be god,
> >remember... you would not exist in your own little world...
>
> >Iain...
>
> As gods, or deities of whatever gender or description, are merely man's
> futile attempt at comprehending the natural powers abiding within the
> universe and projecting onto them a parental authority as a means or
> establishing an imagined relationship between himself and that which he
> cannot fully understand, man's deities truly are subordinate to him. Case in
> point, the deity of the Christian religion, which is based upon a human
> being referred to as Jesus Christ, who was born about 3 B.C. and died about
> 30 A.D., was of Middle-Eastern Semitic origin, spoke the Hebrew language,
> and was of a physical trait which was most certainly of a short, dark
> complicated, black-haired, brown or black-eyed nature. This actual
> historical personage whose mortal remains were recently uncovered in a
> family crypt along with those of his parents in a Jerusalem burial site a
> year or two ago, bears almost no resemblance to the imagined deity which he
> has been transformed into by his worshippers who view him as being a tall,
> pale-complexioned European-type man with blue eyes and light-brown hair and
> beard. Thus this popular deity is nothing more than the product of the human
> imagination, as is much of the literature surrounding him.
> If my realization of the fact that I, as a human being, am among the
> highest evolved creatures which inhabit this planet, capable of determining
> untold actions of unfathomable consequences to the world around me - able to
> create anything including life itself, given time and facilities to do so -
> and equally capable of horrendous destruction which could easily extinguish
> all life from the face of this planet, then I suggest to you that it is
> these facts (which are true of the human race in general and not merely
> myself in particular) which cause you to be uncomfortable, and the fact that
John M. Wright
<sout...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3837E424...@bellsouth.net...
> the U.S. is not a democracy,it is a republic.
> Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best-laid schemes..."
Our republic (USA) is not a democracy? This must have happened since I voted
a couple weeks ago.:)
John
<sout...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:38389443...@bellsouth.net...
> As a Christian,I want your documentation and proof that Jesus' body(not
one of
> His brothers)was found in a family tomb.Strange that I have heard nothing
about
> this,and apparently no other Christian has either,you'd think we would
pick up
> on news like that.You are a pathetic little person who *needs* to do
anything
> for attention.You have my pity,but never my respect.
Mary,
Of course there is no proof! As for SA's proclaimation that Jesus was a
jew... I already knew that... I also knew that Charlston Heston don't likely
resemble Moses either.. Stating the obivious don't make you learned, and
often shows your ignorance...
Iain...
Steven Akins
sout...@bellsouth.net wrote in message <38389443...@bellsouth.net>...
>As a Christian,I want your documentation and proof that Jesus' body(not one
of
>His brothers)was found in a family tomb.Strange that I have heard nothing
about
>this,and apparently no other Christian has either,you'd think we would pick
up
>on news like that.
Well it appeared in Time Magazine, though I don't recall which particular
issue it was. I read it in the waiting room while taking my son to his
pediatrician. The article said that the tomb contained three sarcophagi
(sp?) and these were marked with the Hebrew names of "Mary", "Joseph", and
"Jesus" and dated to the first century A.D. The article also mentioned that
the Christian Church was quick to declare that it was merely a "coincidence"
and that "the name Jesus was a very common Hebrew name, and so the bodies
could have belonged to anyone". I am quoting from memory, so it may not be
exact, but that was the gist of it. Undoubtedly the Christian Church has a
vested interest in keeping this type of thing hush-hush, so as not to cause
doubts among the followers, who might be conveniently distracted by worrying
about such major social concerns as the sexual inclination of Tele-tubbies
and that sort of thing.
sout...@bellsouth.net
we were founded!However,we do operate under the
''democracy"wording.
Mary/Mairi clan Hume"The best-laid
> <sout...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3837E424...@bellsouth.net...
> > the U.S. is not a democracy,it is a republic.
> > Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best-laid schemes..."
>
John
JoJaReb <joj...@aol.comSPAMSUX> wrote in message
news:19991121195043...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
<Sniped>
> How sweet were the grapes when the Commissioner for the Stone Mountain
Games
> wouldn't issue you an invitation for a tent because the Akin surname was
> already aptly represented by the Gordons?
>
> Bydand, bubba.... :-)
> --
SA's ramblings remind me of a pretender that appeared on the scene some
years ago... His contributions were accepted and many people supported him
because on the surface they appeared normal...That is until they found out
what he was about... What his agenda was... The games and Scottish Society
have recovered... but not without damage done by his sorts... He canea
should his face at the games anymore...
Through out the history there have been pretenders. There have been self
righteous proclaims. People who attach themselves to the history of others
hoping to gain the dignity that comes with it. Dignity is an earned
attribute, not one handed out, or picked up from the ground as you would the
heather...
Iain...
John
<Sniped>
That should have been Show...
sout...@bellsouth.net
renains of Jesus coul be hush hush.the shroud of torin has a great deal of
publicity,;I think finding the:real the thing wauld generate a change in the
world!
Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best laid scemes"
l th...@bellsouth.net wrote in message <383 89443.6...@bellsouth.net>...
Steven Akins
sout...@bellsouth.net wrote in message <3838A899...@bellsouth.net>...
>ok,nothing,to subsantiate your storys,as usual.I don't think "finding,'t
the
>renains of Jesus coul be hush hush.the shroud of torin has a great deal of
>publicity,;I think finding the:real the thing wauld generate a change
in the
>world!
>Mary/Mairi clan Hume "The best laid scemes"
Well, Mary, I knew I should have taken home that copy of TIME, but then I
figured that it would have come out in the news anyway and have been public
knowledge. You could probably look it up somehow, I'm sure your local major
library would keep them in the stacks, or you might could look it up on the
internet. The reason that the Shroud of Turin is more well know is the fact
that it has been around for a few hundred years and has been the constant
subject of speculation. These burial findings only occured a couple of years
ago, and the Church is far more interested in trying to provide evidence of
Jesus' supposed "divinity" with relics like the shroud of Turin than it is
in providing information which might cause Jesus to be looked upon as an
ordinary mortal who lived and died, period. Of course, I cannot hope to
reason with you, as you have already made up your mind and are convinced
that Christianity is based on so-called reality. "You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't make him drink"
Jorgen Junker
Steven Akins wrote in message ...
>Jesus' supposed "divinity" with relics like the shroud of Turin than it is
>in providing information which might cause Jesus to be looked upon as an
>ordinary mortal who lived and died, period. Of course, I cannot hope to
>reason with you, as you have already made up your mind and are convinced
>that Christianity is based on so-called reality. "You can lead a horse to
>water, but you can't make him drink"
Steven, if I were you, I'd stop right there...no reason at all to mention
the Dead Sea Scrolls or anything.
Plus, to the Christians, it probably doesn't really matter and their
mythology depends on him being resurrected, just like Dionysus and Adonis
and countless other gods that have been worshipped for centuries with no
proof of their actual divinity. You know how divinity works, you die, then
people make a legend of you, then their great grandkids start killing other
people over defending your godhood. The Christians took less than a
generation to do it. In fact, dear sir, I'd say you yourself are well on
your way to a minor deification, with the amount of effort people are taking
to make a martyr of you for what you say...<G> KJ
Charles Harrison
John wrote in message <#SwlNpIN$GA.234@cpmsnbbsa05>...
>
>Through out the history there have been pretenders. There have been self
>righteous proclaims. People who attach themselves to the history of others
>hoping to gain the dignity that comes with it. Dignity is an earned
>attribute, not one handed out, or picked up from the ground as you would
the
>heather...
>
>Iain...
>
prose!
("Das ist sehr gut!" I have copied it to my save file...for future
reference.
I would like to better reference the author though...) It was said with
such
eloquence.
It seems...y' aire a po-et an' dinnae knoew it. Eh! What!?! AND dinnae
'ave a
rhyme ever'time? {:^D <GBG>
I bid you these things...Laughter and Peace.
Gena M. Burns-Harrison (GMBH)
warc...@compaq.net
Nolensville, Tennessee, USA
Charles Harrison
OH, GOOD GRIEF!!!
okay, so it is rude to YELL! So SUE
me...AU-U-U-U-U-G-G-G-H-H-H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I bid US all these things...Laughter and Peace.
Gena M. Burns-Harrison (GMBH)
warc...@compaq.net
Nolensville, Tennessee, USA
Steven Akins wrote in message <801_3.2035$Cs.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
>
>sout...@bellsouth.net wrote in message
<38389443...@bellsouth.net>...
John
Jorgen Junker <j-kj...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:81acfl$55t$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
>
<snip>
> Steven, if I were you, I'd stop right there...no reason at all to mention
> the Dead Sea Scrolls or anything.
> Plus, to the Christians, it probably doesn't really matter and their
> mythology depends on him being resurrected, just like Dionysus and Adonis
> and countless other gods that have been worshipped for centuries with no
> proof of their actual divinity. You know how divinity works, you die,
then
> people make a legend of you, then their great grandkids start killing
other
> people over defending your godhood. The Christians took less than a
> generation to do it. In fact, dear sir, I'd say you yourself are well on
> your way to a minor deification, with the amount of effort people are
taking
> to make a martyr of you for what you say...<G> KJ
>
Martyr I think not! That would connate a person who gave their life for the
greater good! Martyr I am sure, not! Exposed as a pompous racial radical
history revisionist with little or no regard for the truth...
Notice! I didnea say you or he were stupid or ignorant...
Iain...
Steven Akins
Robert McKay wrote in message
<19991121233510...@ng-fg1.aol.com>...
>The time is, I think, fast approaching when technology will make
full-fledged
>democracy possible even in a nation with millions of citizens, but I have
to
>admit I agree with the men who wrote the Constitution - as I look at my
fellow
>citizens, I'm not entirely sure I trust them to legislate intelligently. I
>think I stick with the system we've got.<g>
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't, Rob?
Jorgen Junker
vote
>on the laws. We have a representative government, which is referred to -
>technically - as a republic rather than a democracy.
Thanks for explaining the difference...I haven't taken a political science
class for nearly thirty years! I guess it just shows how a word can come to
mean one thing in one's mind and another in someone else's. See, I was
thinking when I used the expression "American system of democracy" that I
was talking about the whole system and therefore technically could fall
under the definition which I find in Webster's,(rather than a definitive
term such as "republic") but that was just sloppy on my part, I guess. I
find that I use certain terms in my work in one way and the terms are used
by the general public with a much different connotation (the word "cult" for
example). I appreciate having the input of someone who uses the terms
democracy and republic in their correct context - it'll make me think before
I go throwing out those words again, I can tell you! In fact, I think my
confusion comes from years of working for a gentleman who began the staff
meeting each week by declaring "This is not a democracy". I inferred by
reversing the logic that any time "the people" had anything to say at all
about how things got run that somehow democracy was involved...I do remember
in college learning that there was a difference between the political system
and the way in which enterprise is handled - you know, just because
someplace is democratic that doesn't mean they necessarily have private
ownership of the services and so forth. People can decide to do the
dangdest things as a group, eh? I remember when I was in office, I had a
nasty time with a bunch that got themselves whipped up into a frenzy over
some completely ridiculous ideas they had and tried to get the election
recalled. Naturally the attorney general put a stop to their actions, but
they all still harbored a lot of ill will toward me. They elected me and
then got mad when I didn't do exactly what they thought I should in the way
they thought I should. All I really did was write a grant for government
funding for our school district based on statistics that showed we were an
area with few cultural opportunities such as libraries and a high incidence
of child abuse (in the county). The folks in my little town thought I was
calling them stupid! So, instead of accepting 5 million dollars for our
schools, they rejected the grant and tried to get me booted out of
office...honor is such a fragile thing, isn't it?
Charles Harrison
You are quite welcome, Sir.
GMBH
John wrote in message ...
>Gena wrote:
>> It seems...y' aire a po-et an' dinnae knoew it. Eh! What!?! AND dinnae
>> 'ave a
>> rhyme ever'time? {:^D <GBG>
>>
>> I bid you these things...Laughter and Peace.
>>
>Why thank you... The tech, and legal papers that I generally write don't
>lend themselves to prose...
>
>Iain...
>
>
John M. Wright
Robert McKay <goffsca...@aol.comElRushbo> wrote in message
news:19991121233510...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: "Of that ilk"
> >From: "John M. Wright" jwr...@ior.com
> >Date: Sun, 21 November 1999 08:03 PM EST
>
> >Our republic (USA) is not a democracy? This must have happened since I
voted
> >a couple weeks ago.:)
>
vote
> on the laws. We have a representative government, which is referred to -
> technically - as a republic rather than a democracy.
Please note that I did refer to the USA in my post as a republic. The term
republic is more specific than democracy, but a democracy is also defined as
a system that uses elected representatives (in Webster's dictionary). Also,
please note the smiley in my post. Wow, it gets way too serious around here
lately! hmm...I wonder if anyone makes an electronic woopie cushion...
Jorgen Junker
Cook SLC wrote in message <19991122013016...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
> Again, I understand the definition you use. It is not the commonly
>used definition and what most people understand by the term clan. Your
use
>of the term clan is, I feel, misleading. You can call a dog a pickle, that
>don't make it one.
I think I'm starting to understand this argument...it's okay to kirk a
tartan, it's not okay to claim a chieftainship...right? Isn't His Ilkness
just doing what the ancient clan forefathers did and basically calling
himself the leader since no one has beaten him out of it? Or is it more
complex than that in history?
I mean, a lot of people I know here in the US call themselves clans...it's
a concept which was co-opted by thousands of hippies when I was a kid...they
had clans of this and that and Cave Bears and whatnot...it may be that the
fabric of the universe is shifting...I mean, what happens if the Akins clan
starts to outnumber the actual hereditary clans? It reminds me of an
argument my colleagues at the office of Children and Family services had
over their definition of Christianity...they were all from different
churches and they all shook their heads over each other's definitions of
what a true Christian was...and you would think that someone could have
codified that by now, wouldn't you?
Well, it is sad that others have perhaps been misled by your name change and
>claim to "ownership" of arms, and they may be subject to pity/comments by
>others who know of your actions/statements. Further, your "election" as
chief
>(one wonders who all voted) is problematic. What happens if you are
elected
>out? Does the next person have to change their name, too? Who gets the
>"armigerous family" arms now? Do your subscribers all have to buy new
crest
>pins? That is not the problem with a legitimate chief.
What if thousands of wannabe chiefs all join some manufactured clan just so
they can one day be the head of it? What if so many of them join, that they
start changing the rules...what if they throw all the tea into Boston
Harbor? Just a wild fantasy...
>
>> Is it the fact that the Akins Clan tartan and
>>crest badge are now produced in Scotland and are purchased and proudly
worn
>>by the members of our clan?
>
>No, not really. I think the tartan a good idea.
>
Have you seen those mailings that get sent out claiming to have the "YOUR
FAMILY NAME" crest and coat of arms all ready to send to you if you send
them 29.95? They will even throw in a family history....I wonder if anyone
has ever fallen for that! Is there some rule against devising a coat of
arms for those of us who are of ambiguous clanishness? I've seen elsewhere
on this ng folks have advised that it's okay to design your own tartan and
all...but then, I haven't checked the credentials of all the posters to see
if they really know anything or are just spouting off...I wonder how you
tell? I had been emailing one guy who sent me a picture of his family's
castle in Scotland. How do I find out if he was just sending me a pic
that's available in the public domain or if it's really his family seat? It
seems rude not to take people at face value, but I'm just so confused...
>No, because what you have is an illusion and easily obtained (I will
concede
>that it is unique). I have legitimately granted arms and a proven
genealogy.
> In fact, I could, if I wanted, do the same thing you have done. I could
>change my name to Cook of that Ilk, use my legitimately granted arms, have
my
>family vote me in as chief, and I have everything that you have--and more.
So,
>since what you have is easily within my grasp, I don't think sour grapes
apply.
Hey! Why don't you do it? Or is it a lot of work and responsibility? I
mean, with your career and all (didn't you say you are a naval officer? My
daughter is a sailor in the army, I do have a great deal of respect for
people who make the military a career) you may not feel you have the time,
but wouldn't you be offering a great role model to the young people of your
clan?
Nice to meet you, Karen Junker
Jorgen Junker
John M. Wright wrote in message <81aqqj$2332$1...@hardcore.ivn.net>...
>please note the smiley in my post. Wow, it gets way too serious around here
>lately! hmm...I wonder if anyone makes an electronic woopie cushion...
>
Omigod!!! You mean all those people have been calling each other racist and
bigot and stupid and IT WAS ALL A JOKE!!! Holy cow!!!! I need to lighten
up....;)
Karen Junker (she of little clan, if any)
JoJaReb
>Commissioners which set up Clan tents at various Highland Games throughout
>the country alongside the Clan Gunn? Just exactly what is it that irks you
>about Steven Akins of that Ilk and his Clan? I think it is probably the fact
>that I had the audacity to do something on my own, instead of lamely
>following someone else. I am in a unique position and you are not, so it is
>all sour grapes to you, as the fox said when he finally realized that what
>he wanted was beyond his grasp. Well, David, the grapes taste plenty sweet
>to me!
How sweet were the grapes when the Commissioner for the Stone Mountain Games
wouldn't issue you an invitation for a tent because the Akin surname was
already aptly represented by the Gordons?
Bydand, bubba.... :-)
--
"Ax me about Ebonics!"
Robert McKay
>From: "John M. Wright" jwr...@ior.com
>Date: Sun, 21 November 1999 08:03 PM EST
>Our republic (USA) is not a democracy? This must have happened since I voted
>a couple weeks ago.:)
Technically that's correct. A democracy is self-government - the citizens vote
on the laws. We have a representative government, which is referred to -
technically - as a republic rather than a democracy.
The time is, I think, fast approaching when technology will make full-fledged
democracy possible even in a nation with millions of citizens, but I have to
admit I agree with the men who wrote the Constitution - as I look at my fellow
citizens, I'm not entirely sure I trust them to legislate intelligently. I
think I stick with the system we've got.<g>
Robert McKay/Raibeart MacAoidh
AOL - Goffs California
E-mail - goffsca...@aol.com
"I am equal time!" ----Rush Limbaugh
Sean MacUisdin
I will.
John
Cook SLC
middle of a discussion without being invited. So, I respond:
>Well, David, spit it out man! What exactly is it that "puts you out"? Is it
>the fact that I have taken an obscure armigerous family of Scottish origins
Actually, it is my understanding that you have appropriated the arms from a
gravestone of an individual you identify as the brother of your fourth great
grandfather. You have no proof as to whom the arms belonged, by whom (if
anyone) they were granted, or that you are entitled to use them by descent, as
is the law and custom of arms. Indeed, you make claim of their ownership by
having "copyrighted" the arms, when it is my understanding that copyright only
covers words, not images. Further, it is problematic whether you can copyright
something that is not yours.
>and regimented it into a hierachial structure recognizable as a Clan
Into a structure? No. Into a what you identify as a clan? Yes. I understand
the definition you have given for a clan. However, no Scottish authority has
granted recognition of your family as a clan, as that term is accepted today
among the majority of Scottish enthusiasts, Scottish authorities and modern
writers. Again, I understand the definition you use. It is not the commonly
used definition and what most people understand by the term clan. Your use
of the term clan is, I feel, misleading. You can call a dog a pickle, that
don't make it one.
> and taken the title of Chief by virtue of the fact that it is precisely that
>position which I fulfil?
Again, you have taken a Scottish title implying a certain Scottish status , but
have not gone through the requirements of Scottish tradition to obtain that
Scottish status. Indeed, your changing your name to "of that Ilk", and then
implying that this name change is the same as having the status is disingenuous
if not deceptive.
. Is it the fact that the organizational body of the
>Clan Akins Society is supported by well over 100 member families in Alabama,
>Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, British Columbia, England, Florida, Iowa, Idaho,
>Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi,
>Missouri, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Ontario,
>Oregon, South Carolina and Washington which are "outside my own
>neighborhood" as you put it?
Well, it is sad that others have perhaps been misled by your name change and
claim to "ownership" of arms, and they may be subject to pity/comments by
others who know of your actions/statements. Further, your "election" as chief
(one wonders who all voted) is problematic. What happens if you are elected
out? Does the next person have to change their name, too? Who gets the
"armigerous family" arms now? Do your subscribers all have to buy new crest
pins? That is not the problem with a legitimate chief.
> Is it the fact that the Akins Clan tartan and
>crest badge are now produced in Scotland and are purchased and proudly worn
>by the members of our clan?
No, not really. I think the tartan a good idea.
Is it the fact that we have Clan Akins
>Commissioners which set up Clan tents at various Highland Games throughout
>the country alongside the Clan Gunn?
Actually, it is my understanding that you were denied a tent at the Stone
Mountain Games.
>Just exactly what is it that irks you
>about Steven Akins of that Ilk and his Clan? I think it is probably the fact
>that I had the audacity to do something on my own, instead of lamely
>following someone else.
Not that you did something, but that you did something based on what appear to
me to be misleading statements. Had you set up an Akins Society, House of
Akins or something of that ilk, with a suitable person as president, I would be
a cheerleader for the group. Instead, you make claims of Scottish status based
on dubious tactics and engage in inappropriate language and racist comments in
a public forum while claiming a chiefly status.
> I am in a unique position and you are not, so it is
>all sour grapes to you, as the fox said when he finally realized that what
>he wanted was beyond his grasp.
No, because what you have is an illusion and easily obtained (I will concede
that it is unique). I have legitimately granted arms and a proven genealogy.
In fact, I could, if I wanted, do the same thing you have done. I could
change my name to Cook of that Ilk, use my legitimately granted arms, have my
family vote me in as chief, and I have everything that you have--and more. So,
since what you have is easily within my grasp, I don't think sour grapes apply.
Well, David, the grapes taste plenty sweet
>to me!
I have no doubt.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
John
Steven Akins wrote:
<snip>
> Better the devil you know than the devil you don't, Rob?
I would think for you there is no devil... What another mythical Deity...
surly you jest...
Iain...
Helen Ramsay
"John M. Wright" <jwr...@ior.com> wrote
> please note the smiley in my post. Wow, it gets way too serious around
here
> lately!
How true! It seems some of us are hell-bent on nitpicking every
single word that is posted :(
> hmm...I wonder if anyone makes an electronic woopie cushion...
If you come across one please post it immediately ;-)
Cheers,
Helen
sout...@bellsouth.net
without being taught!
Mary/Mairi "The best-laid schemes..."
ohn M. Wright wrote:
> Robert McKay <goffsca...@aol.comElRushbo> wrote in message
> news:19991121233510...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
> > >Subject: Re: "Of that ilk"
> > >From: "John M. Wright" jwr...@ior.com
> > >Date: Sun, 21 November 1999 08:03 PM EST
> >
> > >Our republic (USA) is not a democracy? This must have happened since I
> voted
> > >a couple weeks ago.:)
> >
> > Technically that's correct. A democracy is self-government - the citizens
> vote
> > on the laws. We have a representative government, which is referred to -
> > technically - as a republic rather than a democracy.
>
> Please note that I did refer to the USA in my post as a republic. The term
> republic is more specific than democracy, but a democracy is also defined as
> a system that uses elected representatives (in Webster's dictionary). Also,
> please note the smiley in my post. Wow, it gets way too serious around here
> lately! hmm...I wonder if anyone makes an electronic woopie cushion...
Cook SLC
>tartan, it's not okay to claim a chieftainship...right? Isn't His Ilkness
>just doing what the ancient clan forefathers did and basically calling
>himself the leader since no one has beaten him out of it? Or is it more
>complex than that in history?
yes, it is more complex than that. Further, we are not living in the 13th
century. Well, most of us anyway <G>. My kids suggest I've made it all the
way to the 19th
>
> I mean, a lot of people I know here in the US call themselves clans...it's
>a concept which was co-opted by thousands of hippies when I was a kid...they
>had clans of this and that and Cave Bears and whatnot...it may be that the
>fabric of the universe is shifting...I mean, what happens if the Akins clan
>starts to outnumber the actual hereditary clans?
It is certainly possible that the rules could change. They haven't at this
time. Maybe they will one day do away with speed limits throughout the U.S. as
well. They haven't yet, darn it.
>Have you seen those mailings that get sent out claiming to have the "YOUR
>FAMILY NAME" crest and coat of arms all ready to send to you if you send
>them 29.95? They will even throw in a family history....I wonder if anyone
>has ever fallen for that!
Oh, yes, I know they have. They assume because someone named Cook was granted
arms 200 years ago they have a right to those arms.
>Is there some rule against devising a coat of
>arms for those of us who are of ambiguous clanishness?
Absolutely not, and I would encourage you to do so. Check out alt.rec.heraldry
newsgroup for help in doing so. Just don't appropriate those belonging to
another and then claim they are chiefly arms.
.
>
>
>Hey! Why don't you do it? Or is it a lot of work and responsibility? I
>mean, with your career and all (didn't you say you are a naval officer? My
>daughter is a sailor in the army, I do have a great deal of respect for
>people who make the military a career) you may not feel you have the time,
>but wouldn't you be offering a great role model to the young people of your
>clan?
Because (a) it would be deceptive and (b) Cook is not a recognized Scottish
clan. I would be settiing a bad example. If I have to change my name to claim
a status, I do not truly have the status.
And I think you meant soldier in the Army, didn't you? (You landlubbers <G>).
>
>Nice to meet you, Karen Junker
And you Karen.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Steven Akins
Cook SLC wrote in message <19991122013016...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
>Actually, it is my understanding that you have appropriated the arms from a
>gravestone of an individual you identify as the brother of your fourth
great
>grandfather. You have no proof as to whom the arms belonged, by whom (if
>anyone) they were granted, or that you are entitled to use them by descent,
as
>is the law and custom of arms. Indeed, you make claim of their ownership
by
>having "copyrighted" the arms, when it is my understanding that copyright
only
>covers words, not images. Further, it is problematic whether you can
copyright
>something that is not yours.
The arms in question were depicted on the gravestone of my 5th great uncle,
Thomas Akins, who died in 1785 at 28 years of age, leaving no heirs. The
tombstne was erected at his grave by his older brother, William Akins (my
4th great grandfather) who was appointed the administrator of Thomas's
intestate estate by the Court of Mecklenburg Co., N.C. Many of the other
tombstones in Steele Creek Cemetery where Thomas and his sister Agnes are
buried also depict the coats of arms of the respective dead. This was in
America in the latter half of the 1700's, so we are dealing with American
heraldry, here, not British, though most of the people buried in the
Cemetery were of Scottish descent, and were of British citizenship at the
time of their birth (prior to the Revolution) though few if any were loyal
to Britain during the Revolution; indeed there are two signers of the
Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence buried in that cemetery, both I
believe of Scottish descent. As were are dealing with American heraldry
(albeit based upon the British model) the arms in question are completely
outside the jurisdiction of the British courts of heraldry. You are also
incorrect that only written works can be copyrighted. The form which I used
to copyright the arms was form VA which is used to "copyright visual works
of art" and armorial bearings definately fall under this catagory.
>Actually, it is my understanding that you were denied a tent at the Stone
>Mountain Games.
The Stone Mountain Highland Games is the only Games in America where the
Clan Akins has been denied participation in that manner. We have set up Clan
tents in Montgomery Alabama, Huntsville Alabama, Alma Michigan, Murfreesboro
Tennessee, Pleasanton California, Modesto California, and elsewhere, and we
have been invited to attend numerous other events as a participating Clan
which we would be happy to attend were it not for reasons of inconvenience
due to travel distance, etc. The Stone Mountain Highland Games may be
opening themselves up for a lawsuit by their discrimanatory policies. Our
Georgia state commissioner is looking into the matter further to see what
actions may be necessary. Several official representatives from other Clans
who are familiar with us have said that this situation was intollerable.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
John
Steven Akins wrote in message
> The arms in question were depicted on the gravestone of my 5th great
uncle,
> Thomas Akins, who died in 1785 at 28 years of age, leaving no heirs. The
> tombstne was erected at his grave by his older brother, William Akins (my
> 4th great grandfather) who was appointed the administrator of Thomas's
> intestate estate by the Court of Mecklenburg Co., N.C. Many of the other
> tombstones in Steele Creek Cemetery where Thomas and his sister Agnes are
> buried also depict the coats of arms of the respective dead. This was in
> America in the latter half of the 1700's, so we are dealing with American
> heraldry, here, not British, though most of the people buried in the
American Heraldry? Never have I heard of such a thing... Does this mean
that it should be held in the same esteem as that of British Heraldry? I
don't know if you are aware... (Not that this is the case) Many tombstone
artist carved on the stones what they liked... If your family had a crest,
it certainly would not only appear on the stone... It would be every evident
in other forms as well... Now we hear that a great many people of the area
of Mecklenburg Virginia with Scottish ansestory were steeped in the
traidions of the British?
> Cemetery were of Scottish descent, and were of British citizenship at the
> time of their birth (prior to the Revolution) though few if any were loyal
> to Britain during the Revolution; indeed there are two signers of the
> Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence buried in that cemetery, both I
> believe of Scottish descent. As were are dealing with American heraldry
> (albeit based upon the British model) the arms in question are completely
> outside the jurisdiction of the British courts of heraldry.
>You are also incorrect that only written works can be copyrighted. The
form which I > used to copyright the arms was form VA which is used to
"copyright visual works
> of art" and armorial bearings definately fall under this catagory.
>
You are correct, you can copyright works of art of your own design... You
likely can copyright works of others design to, however with your admission
that this crest being on a tombstone for over 2 hundred years it would be in
the public domain, making it if not illegal to copyright, certainly
unethical...
<sniped>
> The Stone Mountain Highland Games is the only Games in America where the
> Clan Akins has been denied participation in that manner. We have set up
Clan
> tents in Montgomery Alabama, Huntsville Alabama, Alma Michigan,
Murfreesboro
> Tennessee, Pleasanton California, Modesto California, and elsewhere, and
we
For those of you not familiar with the organizations that sponsor the
Highland Games, I give a brief look at the workings...
First games are not hosted by Clans. They are hosted by the local Americans
of Scottish decent who generally represent a not for profit organization.
They are generally designed to provide a means of making money for a local
independent group, often the Scottish American Society, and often will take
anyone's money.. This is a direct off shoot of the tartan industry.
Although I am not sure which came first the Opening of the games to none
highland families, or that of the commercialization of all things Scottish..
Well established games... (like that of Atlanta) Have different agenda's.
There are a few who still adhere to a somewhat traditional order of
things... Atlanta does not have to solicit to get people with tents to
come... I have heard talk that there are some organizations who are
thinking about elimination of the Clan Tents all together... Mainly for
reasons that anyone thinks that they can show up and pass themselves off as
a established family of highland origin... The other reason is of course
obvious... How many clan tent are there at a Highland Game in Scotland...
Oh there may be a Clan who has a tent, and rest area for its participants,
but one for a bazaar, I don't think so...
> have been invited to attend numerous other events as a participating Clan
> which we would be happy to attend were it not for reasons of inconvenience
> due to travel distance, etc. The Stone Mountain Highland Games may be
> opening themselves up for a lawsuit by their discrimanatory policies. Our
> Georgia state commissioner is looking into the matter further to see what
> actions may be necessary. Several official representatives from other
Clans
> who are familiar with us have said that this situation was intollerable.
Who are these representatives? I would like to know if they are fully aware
of the means in which you gained your credentials as a clan... I will have
to check with the official representatives of our clan to see if they
proscribe to your way of thinking.
As for a lawsuit, you may want to reconsider... For 150 dollars you can file
in federal court. You must exhaust an appeal to through the lower courts
first, and that could be time consuming... However if it is your plan, do it
right away, as I am sure that there are limitations (in many cases 18
months, in others 20 days) After some lengthy work on your part, the Judge
will be asked to consider what part of the Civil Rights act of 1964 (as
amended in 1990) that was violated. Remember you must rely on race, gender,
religion, or ethnic background. Unless you are black, Hispanic, oriental,
or of some other race, being turned down because you are white, when other
white groups are included would eliminate that argument. Then there is
Gender... You might try that, however there are Clans with women, and men
that have been invited, so unless you claim a third gender, that would
eliminate that.
What of your religion... If you were not asked nor indicated your religious
preference, and it was not known then it is not to be considered... Of
course, there are others of Pagan religion, who were so unless you have some
new twist it is not a legal standing either.
Now we do have ethnic background... You likely could make this stand up...
Seems that there might be grounds based on your claim of Scottish American
heritage... Divorced from that of Scottish American Scottish heritage... If
they excluded you for your non Scottish's than it might be a keystone for
your case. Of course, you will need to check their charter, and insure that
it is not a private organization dedicated to the furtherment of things of
Scottish tradition, and not of American Scottish tradition...
Please feel free to comment...
Iain....
Steven Akins
John wrote in message ...
>American Heraldry? Never have I heard of such a thing... Does this mean
>that it should be held in the same esteem as that of British Heraldry? I
>don't know if you are aware... (Not that this is the case) Many tombstone
>artist carved on the stones what they liked... If your family had a crest,
>it certainly would not only appear on the stone... It would be every
evident
>in other forms as well... Now we hear that a great many people of the area
>of Mecklenburg Virginia with Scottish ansestory were steeped in the
>traidions of the British?
Why, yes, during and after the Colonial Period many Americans bore coats of
arms. In the particular cemetary that I am speaking of, Steele Creek
Presbyterian Churchyard, which is located near Charlotte, in Mecklenburg
Co., North Carolina (not Virginia), there are at least 18 examples of
tombstones bearing coats of arms, dating from the mid to late 1700's for the
names of Akins, Barnet, Berryhill, Bigham, Campbell, Carothers, Davis,
Gilmore, Greer, Hartt, McCleary, McDowell, Neel, Neeley, Price, Vance, and
Whiteside. Many of which bear not only a crest in addition to the shield and
motto, but several have supporters as well. In the nearby cemetery of
Ebenezer Presbyterian Church in Rock Hill, York Co., South Carolina, both
the gravestones of my fifth great grandfather, Stephen McCorkle, his wife
ann (Forbes), and their daughter, Violet, all bear the McCorkle coat of arms
including shield, crest, supporters and motto. These monuments were erected
between 1790 when my 5th great grandfather died and 1796, when his wife and
daughter died (due to a fever epidemic). All three bear coats of arms
showing identical details, allowing for slight variation in style from
different workmen. So yes, there was a living heraldic tradition in this
country even after the Revolutionary War. If you would like to see an
example of Thomas Akins heraldic gravestone, click on the link below:
http://www.angelfire.com/al2/akinsclanwebsite/crest.html
There is also a link on this site (which is a page from our clan web-site)
to another page which tells something of the history of the cemetary at
Steele Creek Presbyterian Church and lists all of the dead buried there up
to 1977.
>You are correct, you can copyright works of art of your own design... You
>likely can copyright works of others design to, however with your admission
>that this crest being on a tombstone for over 2 hundred years it would be
in
>the public domain, making it if not illegal to copyright, certainly
>unethical...
It is more within the domain of my family's property than it is within the
domain of the entire public. You are forgetting that this is my own family
we are dealing with, and as such I doubt any court would overturn my
copyright if it were ever contested by anyone outside of my own family.
There are many families within the Akins Clan, but only a certain few are
members of the same family from which I descend, others are so distantly
removed that it would be impossible to make a connection between the many
various branches that are scattered throughout the world. You must remember
we are dealing with a name/family which has been on record in Scotland since
the early 1400's, and many branches of it have been in America since the
1600's and 1700's, arriving at different times and settling in different
areas. We have proof of our descent back to the 1600's and have traced our
own particular lineage from Scotland to Ulster and thence to America, from
Maryland to North and South Carolina, to Georgia, Alabama, and beyond. There
are countless other branches of the Akins Clan here in America which have no
clear connection to our own family as their research cannot get back to that
point. However, ours is the only line to bear a supported coat of arms,
indicating by heraldic terms that ours is the principal or chief line.
>> The Stone Mountain Highland Games is the only Games in America where the
>> Clan Akins has been denied participation in that manner. We have set up
>Clan
>> tents in Montgomery Alabama, Huntsville Alabama, Alma Michigan,
>Murfreesboro
>> Tennessee, Pleasanton California, Modesto California, and elsewhere, and
>we
>
>For those of you not familiar with the organizations that sponsor the
>Highland Games, I give a brief look at the workings...
>
>First games are not hosted by Clans. They are hosted by the local
Americans
>of Scottish decent who generally represent a not for profit organization.
>They are generally designed to provide a means of making money for a local
>independent group, often the Scottish American Society, and often will take
>anyone's money.. This is a direct off shoot of the tartan industry.
>Although I am not sure which came first the Opening of the games to none
>highland families, or that of the commercialization of all things
Scottish..
Yes, that is correct. I founded and organized the first annual Heart of
Dixie Highland Games held in Jasper, Alabama, this past April, we had 24
clans in attendance (including our own) and we invited them to come and set
up their own tents for free, or they could rent one already set-up. Many
also chose to serve as Games Sponsors by making financial contributions,
which helped the Games to pay for itself. We had between 5000 and 6000
people in attendance, which was good for a first year event, especially
since the town of Jasper is home to only 13,000 people. Most of the
attendance was from outside the city.
>Well established games... (like that of Atlanta) Have different agenda's.
>There are a few who still adhere to a somewhat traditional order of
>things... Atlanta does not have to solicit to get people with tents to
>come... I have heard talk that there are some organizations who are
>thinking about elimination of the Clan Tents all together... Mainly for
>reasons that anyone thinks that they can show up and pass themselves off as
>a established family of highland origin... The other reason is of course
>obvious... How many clan tent are there at a Highland Game in Scotland...
>Oh there may be a Clan who has a tent, and rest area for its participants,
>but one for a bazaar, I don't think so...
Well, IMHO, you don't have much of a games without the Clan tents and the
vendors. That is very much a part of what attendees are coming to see,
especially the ones interested in discovering their Scottish cultural
heritage. Most people will not pay $5.00 to stand around on an athletic
field and watch athletes lug weights and cabers around all day. They need
something to keep their attention, and the clan tents and vendors provide
that.
>>The Stone Mountain Highland Games may be
>> opening themselves up for a lawsuit by their discrimanatory policies. Our
>> Georgia state commissioner is looking into the matter further to see what
>> actions may be necessary. Several official representatives from other
>Clans
>> who are familiar with us have said that this situation was intollerable.
>Who are these representatives? I would like to know if they are fully
aware
>of the means in which you gained your credentials as a clan... I will have
>to check with the official representatives of our clan to see if they
>proscribe to your way of thinking.
The Georgia State Clan Akins Commissioner is a distant cousin of mine,
Chieftain James Wesley Akins of Brunswick, Georgia. His great great
grandfather and my great great grandfather were brothers. He is fully aware
of all the many obstacles that our Clan has had to face, and he shares my
opinions regarding these matters.
>As for a lawsuit, you may want to reconsider... For 150 dollars you can
file
>in federal court. You must exhaust an appeal to through the lower courts
>first, and that could be time consuming
Yes, I know how to file a lawsuit, I've done it before, and have been
successful. We are not certain at this point if that is the route we are
going to pursue, much depends upon the SMHG policy's flexibility. There are
a number of holes in their policy however, and this would be in our favor.
>However if it is your plan, do it
>right away, as I am sure that there are limitations (in many cases 18
>months, in others 20 days) After some lengthy work on your part, the Judge
>will be asked to consider what part of the Civil Rights act of 1964 (as
>amended in 1990) that was violated. Remember you must rely on race,
gender,
>religion, or ethnic background.
>Now we do have ethnic background... You likely could make this stand up...
>Seems that there might be grounds based on your claim of Scottish American
>heritage... Divorced from that of Scottish American Scottish heritage...
If
>they excluded you for your non Scottish's than it might be a keystone for
>your case. Of course, you will need to check their charter, and insure
that
>it is not a private organization dedicated to the furtherment of things of
>Scottish tradition, and not of American Scottish tradition...
Naturally, this would be the angle by which this would be approached in a
Civil Liberties type case.The games are held at a public park also, which
leads to some question as to the ethics of their exclusivist policy. There
are many factors weighing against them, and it may be that they will realize
this and change their decision regading their policy, thus avoiding a
lawsuit. If not, we may see them in court.
David Thorpe
the
>middle of a discussion without being invited. So, I respond:
>
>>Well, David, spit it out man! What exactly is it that "puts you out"? Is
it
>>the fact that I have taken an obscure armigerous family of Scottish
origins
>
>gravestone of an individual you identify as the brother of your fourth
great
>grandfather. You have no proof as to whom the arms belonged, by whom (if
>anyone) they were granted, or that you are entitled to use them by descent,
as
>is the law and custom of arms. Indeed, you make claim of their ownership
by
>having "copyrighted" the arms, when it is my understanding that copyright
only
>covers words, not images. Further, it is problematic whether you can
copyright
>something that is not yours.
>
>
>Into a structure? No. Into a what you identify as a clan? Yes. I
understand
>the definition you have given for a clan. However, no Scottish authority
has
>granted recognition of your family as a clan, as that term is accepted
today
>among the majority of Scottish enthusiasts, Scottish authorities and modern
>writers. Again, I understand the definition you use. It is not the
commonly
>used definition and what most people understand by the term clan. Your
use
>of the term clan is, I feel, misleading. You can call a dog a pickle, that
>don't make it one.
>
The trouble is that not so long ago there was a discussion under the heading
"Kirkin' o' the Tartan" when several North American posters proclaimed that
Scottish approval is quite unnecessary, and that "North American Scots" are
fully entitled to "evolve" Scottish and clan culture as they see fit. If
the Scots don't approve, too bad. That being the case, I fail to see how
they can criticise Mr Akins for doing precisely what they advocate. Akins,
after all, is not the only dubious clan in existence in the USA - I recently
came across a copy of a magazine called "The Highlander" which advertised,
among others, Clan Bell, Clan Brough, Clan Broun, and so on.
>> and taken the title of Chief by virtue of the fact that it is precisely
that
>>position which I fulfil?
>
>Again, you have taken a Scottish title implying a certain Scottish status ,
but
>have not gone through the requirements of Scottish tradition to obtain that
>Scottish status. Indeed, your changing your name to "of that Ilk", and
then
>implying that this name change is the same as having the status is
disingenuous
>if not deceptive.
>
See above, The North American posters stated quite categorically that
Scottish tradition is unnecessary. In the case in point, American
"tradition" going back to, I think, 1947, was considered to be quite
adequate. As to the change of name, I suspect that quite a few posters to
this group have from time to time used names not legally their own, but
which they think perhaps fortify their claims to Scottish heritage.
>. Is it the fact that the organizational body of the
>>Clan Akins Society is supported by well over 100 member families in
Alabama,
>>Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, British Columbia, England, Florida, Iowa,
Idaho,
>>Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi,
>>Missouri, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Ontario,
>>Oregon, South Carolina and Washington which are "outside my own
>>neighborhood" as you put it?
>
>Well, it is sad that others have perhaps been misled by your name change
and
>claim to "ownership" of arms, and they may be subject to pity/comments by
>others who know of your actions/statements. Further, your "election" as
chief
>(one wonders who all voted) is problematic. What happens if you are
elected
>out? Does the next person have to change their name, too? Who gets the
>"armigerous family" arms now? Do your subscribers all have to buy new
crest
>pins? That is not the problem with a legitimate chief.
>
Not so if one looks back to early clan times when the chiefs were elected
under the system of tanistry. It could therefore be said that a system
where the chief is "elected" is
purer than the modern system where the chief merely inherits his title.
>> Is it the fact that the Akins Clan tartan and
>>crest badge are now produced in Scotland and are purchased and proudly
worn
>>by the members of our clan?
>
>No, not really. I think the tartan a good idea.
>
>Is it the fact that we have Clan Akins
>>Commissioners which set up Clan tents at various Highland Games throughout
>>the country alongside the Clan Gunn?
>
>Actually, it is my understanding that you were denied a tent at the Stone
>Mountain Games.
>
>>Just exactly what is it that irks you
>>about Steven Akins of that Ilk and his Clan? I think it is probably the
fact
>>that I had the audacity to do something on my own, instead of lamely
>>following someone else.
>
>Not that you did something, but that you did something based on what appear
to
>me to be misleading statements. Had you set up an Akins Society, House of
>Akins or something of that ilk, with a suitable person as president, I
would be
>a cheerleader for the group. Instead, you make claims of Scottish status
based
>on dubious tactics and engage in inappropriate language and racist comments
in
>a public forum while claiming a chiefly status.
No problem with Steven's Scottish background, as far as I can tell - he's
done lots of research and come up with some Lanarkshire ancestors. Having
said that, there's no way that he can lay claim to a clan that would have
any credibility here in Scotland. But Steven's not in Scotland - he's in
North America, and the difficulty is that if our North American cousins
start relaxing the rules
and deciding that it is quite in order to create their own clan traditions,
this is the sort of thing that inevitably happens and I fail to see how they
can have any real complaint. "Ohhhh, but we didna ken, we didna ken..."
Weel, ye ken the noo.
Incidentally, Glen, going somewhat off-topic, were you at Edzell?
David.
Cook SLC
Please don't assume all North Americans feel the same way on Scottish
tradition. Your point about sliding on one element of tradition, sliding on
all is understood. I hesitate to criticize the Kirkin' o' the tartans, as for
some it has religious conotation, and I am most careful not to engage in that
type of discussion. You are quite correct, of course, that it is an American
custom/activity, what have you.
No, I wasn't at Edzell. I lived in Aberdeen, at Hillhead.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Cook SLC
>indicating by heraldic terms that ours is the principal or chief line.
>
>
There are a whole slew (that's a technical term, of course <G>) of folks who
have supporters who are not even Scottish. Further, you have no evidence that
the supporters (and, indeed, the entire achievement) were not assumed.
Additionally, there is no evidence of a principal or chiefly line for Akins
anywhere in history that you have cited or that I am aware of (in my admittedly
limited knowledge).
Further, you are not the direct descendent of the person in the grave. He was
your 5th G. uncle. If those were his supporters, and he died with heirs, it
would not appear they would devolve upon you. If he died without heirs, and
they were his arms, they would not devolve upon you. For you to claim those
arms, you need to show you are descended from the armiger.
In sum, supporters to not a chief make.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Jorgen Junker
Cook SLC wrote in message <19991122093552...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>
>And I think you meant soldier in the Army, didn't you? (You landlubbers
<G>).
No really, she sails! She's an engineer on a tug boat (I found out from her
that the army has more boats, as opposed to ships, than the navy!). I'm
happy to say she didn't get the idea from Demi Moore...she's already served
for nearly two years when that movie came out...but she's still called a
soldier, you're right...only she's a soldier who sails...<VBG> Karen Junker
Steven Akins
David Thorpe wrote in message ...
>The trouble is that not so long ago there was a discussion under the
heading
>"Kirkin' o' the Tartan" when several North American posters proclaimed that
>Scottish approval is quite unnecessary, and that "North American Scots" are
>fully entitled to "evolve" Scottish and clan culture as they see fit. If
>the Scots don't approve, too bad. That being the case, I fail to see how
>they can criticise Mr Akins for doing precisely what they advocate. Akins,
>after all, is not the only dubious clan in existence in the USA - I
recently
>came across a copy of a magazine called "The Highlander" which advertised,
>among others, Clan Bell, Clan Brough, Clan Broun, and so on.
Not surprisingly (I'm sure to most) I agree with you on these points. It
seems my fellow American Scots wish to employ a double standard designed for
keeping obscure disorganized Scottish families just that - obscure and
disorganized. That however is not satisfactory to me, as I am proud, even
passionate, about my heritage and I have no desire to be left lurking in the
dust as a "sept" of the "clan" Gordon. So, having researched the origins and
history of my family, having uncovered our armorial bearings, having
provided my people with their own tartan to wear and badges of my crest to
display and said "follow me", a great many have answered the call and
continue to do so in ever growing numbers. No one is being misled or coerced
into accepting me as their Chief, they do so voluntarily when they sign
their name to the membership application which states that by doing so they
pledge to acknowledge me as such. No one is holding a gun to their head, it
is done willingly because I have done for them what no one else has done -
given them the traditional trappings, pomp and ceremony that are enjoyed by
all the other Scottish Clans, as well as some history and genealogical
information which is presented to them in our quarterly Clan newsletter, The
Clan Akins Journal. We have an enormous annual renewal rate, which in my
mind translates into a satisfied Clan. We have yet to receive any indication
of dissatisfaction whatsoever from any of our Clan members, and on the
contrary, we often receive numerous complementary letters of thanks from
those who have joined our Clan Society. Many have even stated that we should
raise our annual dues (which are $15.00 per year) as they feel that what
they receive far outweighs the small amount which they have invested. It is
certainly most gratifying to me to know that I have been responsible for
instituting all of this which brings so much meaning and satisfaction to the
lives of my fellow Clanspeople.
> The North American posters stated quite categorically that
>Scottish tradition is unnecessary. In the case in point, American
>"tradition" going back to, I think, 1947, was considered to be quite
>adequate. As to the change of name, I suspect that quite a few posters to
>this group have from time to time used names not legally their own, but
>which they think perhaps fortify their claims to Scottish heritage.
Yes, but in my particular case the name is legally my own as I have
augmented it through the courts of law.
>Not so if one looks back to early clan times when the chiefs were elected
>under the system of tanistry. It could therefore be said that a system
>where the chief is "elected" is
>purer than the modern system where the chief merely inherits his title.
Precisely. Many people labor under the false belief that the Clan system is
a form of feudalism, which in some ways it resembles, but it existed long
before feudalism was introduced by the Normans and persisted in the very
areas where the Normans had the least amount of influence. The ancient
Celtic system of tanistry was the most pure form of the Celtic Clan system,
and primogeniture was not a factor and did not become a factor until the
original Celtic Clan system had become bastardized by English customs and
influence.
>No problem with Steven's Scottish background, as far as I can tell - he's
>done lots of research and come up with some Lanarkshire ancestors. Having
>said that, there's no way that he can lay claim to a clan that would have
>any credibility here in Scotland. But Steven's not in Scotland - he's in
>North America,
No problem indeed. There are now remarkably few of my own clanspeople left
in Scotland, their numbers represent only a fraction of the amount which
reside here in the U.S., and as it has already been adequately demonstrated
there is a tremendous ambivalence in Scotland where the Clans are concerned.
The Scots here in the U.S. and Canada, where most of my clanspeople reside
are far more enthusastic about their heritage and its customs and
traditions - however bogus and trumped up these may have become by their
promotion at the hands of the tartan trade. My Chiefship of my Clan is every
bit as authentic and legitimate as the whole "clan tartan" tradition, which
if exposed as the 19th century Victorianized invention it is makes little
difference to the people who are so enthusiastic and proud of their
heritage. If you remove the bogus 19th century tartan mystique from the
Clans what do you have? Certainly nothing that would make the Scots stand
out in a crowd. Like it or not, it is these ficticious myths and fantasies
which fuel the enthusiasm for Scottish culture. You don't see anyone going
mad over English culture, now do you? Remove the mythical (read: romantic)
elements from Scottish culture and you end up with a lot of mean
tight-lipped, Calvanistic lowlanders with their hands on their
purse-strings, their nose to the grindstone and their feet on the path that
runs from the kirk to the workplace to the barroom, to the grave, where, if
they have been miserable enough in this life, then they might have some
faint glimmer of hope for escaping eternal torment in the hereafter.
>and the difficulty is that if our North American cousins
>start relaxing the rules
>and deciding that it is quite in order to create their own clan traditions,
>this is the sort of thing that inevitably happens and I fail to see how
they
>can have any real complaint. "Ohhhh, but we didna ken, we didna ken..."
>Weel, ye ken the noo.
Aye, weel, we wouldna want tae end oop like yoursel's noo; or warse yet, end
oop like everyain else here in America. After all, its oop tae us tae
maintain oor traditions! "Here's tae us! Wha's like us?"
Steven Akins of that Ilk
Sean MacUisdin
(snip for brevity)
> See above, The North American posters stated quite categorically that
> Scottish tradition is unnecessary. In the case in point, American
> "tradition" going back to, I think, 1947, was considered to be quite
> adequate. As to the change of name, I suspect that quite a few posters to
> this group have from time to time used names not legally their own, but
> which they think perhaps fortify their claims to Scottish heritage.
You know, David, without entering into a renewed bun fight, which
contrary to your belief, I'm not at all interested in, I think you might
be misrepresenting us. Yes, we feel ethnic Scottish culture does not
bend its knee to political borders, and our own brand of ethnic Scottish
culture may evolve along a different path than Scotland's, but not once
did we categorically state that Scottish tradition is unnecessary. All
we want to state is that our brand of Scottish ethnicity will be
different, must be different, and all we want, like yourself, David, is
some respect, not a simple waving of the hand and saying, "Bah, it's not
Scottish."
As far as name changes, well, I'm guilty as charged. Sean MacUisdin is
merely the Gaelic spelling of my name. Gaelic is a language I'm working
on (rather slowly) and I'm proud of my name and its traditional
spelling. I fail to see what's wrong with that? Should all those ethnic
Scots, whether in Scotland, England, the US and Canada suddenly revert
back to the English spelling? Personally I applaud those who are doing
what they can to preserve our linguistic culture. Here in Canada, for
example, Gaelic is emerging from obscurity quite rapidly, and it is not
unknown for people to change the spelling of their names back to the
traditional Gaelic.
Anyway, I suspect you may disagree, (due mainly to our butting heads in
the past) but my claims of Scottish ethnicity may be many things, but
they are not dubious.
(snip again)
> No problem with Steven's Scottish background, as far as I can tell - he's
> done lots of research and come up with some Lanarkshire ancestors. Having
> said that, there's no way that he can lay claim to a clan that would have
> any credibility here in Scotland. But Steven's not in Scotland - he's in
> North America, and the difficulty is that if our North American cousins
> start relaxing the rules
> and deciding that it is quite in order to create their own clan traditions,
> this is the sort of thing that inevitably happens and I fail to see how they
> can have any real complaint. "Ohhhh, but we didna ken, we didna ken..."
> Weel, ye ken the noo.
But that assumes that culture and ethnicity must remain in a vacuum,
David. Hell, you have to admit that Scottish culture has evolved
dramatically in the past four hundred years. If strict adherence to
tradition and rules are so important, then why are you not pushing for a
reversion back to a pre-Culloden or a pre-Glencoe culture or some other
point in history?
I guess I would like to know from you, David, at which point in the
evolution of Scottish culture do you feel a set of rules were initiated
to govern it?
I hope this proves to you, David, that I can post without vitriol, and
if vitriol is included in one of my posts, it is always because I felt I
was on the receiving end first.
--
CandL Garrett
> >Subject: Re: "Of that ilk"
full-fledged
> democracy possible even in a nation with millions of citizens, but I have
to
> admit I agree with the men who wrote the Constitution - as I look at my
fellow
> citizens, I'm not entirely sure I trust them to legislate intelligently.
I
> think I stick with the system we've got.<g>
>
It is only 2 Saturdays ago that Australians went to the Polls and cast
their vote on a Referendum that would have began the process of removing
the Queen of England as our Head of State. The *No* vote had a massive
win, not because of loyalty to "Old Liz", but because the actual question
we had to say 'Yes' or 'No' to would have given our Prime Minister the
right of final say on selecting the "President" and also the right to
dismiss him. (It was actually a little more complex than that,,, but that
is the gist of it).
We trust _our_ fellow citizens..... it's them there 'pollies' ya gotta
watch out for, Mate!! LOL
Lena G
Neacalban1
>FAMILY NAME" crest and coat of arms all ready to send to you if you send
>them 29.95? They will even throw in a family history....I wonder if anyone
>has ever fallen for that!
Neacalban1
Actually,it's a Gaelic term. derived from sluagh- a crowd or multitude
James William Oliver
CandL Garrett <C.P.G...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:01bf352a$ef1829e0$LocalHost@default...
'Queen of England'...Who might this be? Not an institution I'm familiar
with...
James
CandL Garrett
Neacalban1 <neaca...@aol.com> wrote in article
> >There are a whole slew (that's a technical term, of course <G>) of folks
>
>
> Actually,it's a Gaelic term. derived from sluagh- a crowd or multitude
>
Fancy you twigging to that, Fair Nichol
Gaelic galore ;-)
Lena G
CandL Garrett
James William Oliver wrote in article
> CandL Garrett wrote in message
Really, James? That is amazing!! Where on Earth do you live?
But.... if you want me to be pedantic... I was talking about Elizabeth the
Second, Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Head of State of Great
Britain, Head of the Commonwealth of Nations, Queen of Australia, Queen of
Queensland.... and God only knows what else!!!
But to *me* she is just Liz, "Queen of England". ;^0
Tut, tut...... fancy calling her an institution.. as if she were a Deaf &
Dumb Society or something!!! <g>
Lena G
Ed Thomas
Steven Akins wrote:
> Bryn Fraser wrote in message <1iw68EAy...@finhall.demon.co.uk>...
>
> >I guess that would make you Mr Ilk.......
>
> No, and I believe that you know better but are merely playing the fool for
> the entertainment of others. On all legal documents "Akins of that Ilk" is
> my surname; much the same as someone who bears a hyphenated surname such as
> "Hope-Vere". They would not be referred to as "Mr. Vere" because Vere is
> merely a portion of their surname. They would be "Mr. Hope-Vere" or "Miss
> Hope-Vere" or whatever depending upon their gender, marital status, rank,
> degree, etc. My full last name is "Akins of that Ilk".
Well, I guess that is one way of doing it legally.
Tiss
Ed Thomas
Jorgen Junker wrote:
> James William Oliver wrote in message ...
>
> >Or Ilkie to his friends...ahem...if they would care to show themselves...
>
> Dear Folks,
>
> I am coming out as friend to our Steven - he as an individual has taken more
> abuse at the hands of the others on this ng than I have seen in some time.
> If he were being attacked for the color of his skin, you couldn't be more
> pious in defending him...instead, you attack him for his beliefs, which he
> has shown you voluntarily. He could easily hide and lurk, but instead he
> has the courage to represent his convictions, which in the US are protected
> by our constitution.
>
> I pity those of you who feel impelled by your own fears to attack the
> beliefs of others. Not only is it bad manners, it shows your hand rather
> more than you realize.
>
> In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right to
> say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves
> now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
> literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
>
> I would appreciate reading this ng more if folks could stick to their
> knitting and simply express their own ideas without having to jump all over
> others. The obsession for setting others right is in itself an afflictive
> disease...
> KJ
Steve is loving every minute of it. Its a game to him. After all it gets him
noticed. BG
Tiss
SilntThnkr
As I said Tiss, she is seeming more and more like a troll, but I will give her
the benifit of the doubt for now. As for the comment about the medication
Helen, you could take it as an outright insult, or as a bit of good humored
teasing, or as an honest question. After all, I don't know the mental state of
every person on this NG (and I have my doubts about some). So I did say, don't
take this the wrong way, meaning it is not an insult it was ment as an
expression of stupdification at some of the comments KJ has made. As for the
FAQ, I must apologize for not making myself clear enough. While there is no
FAQ for THIS particular NG depending on the server youuse, most have a FAQ for
how to get along in a NG and what is considered good etiquett (if a person
cares). I know that on AOL (which I get mine from) it goes a little farther
and suggests waiting at leaste a few months so that youcanread and get the
general flavor of the NG. This will often not only answer many of your
questions, it will permit you to make constructive comments without
embarrassing yourself. As I said I am not the NG police or even pretend to be
polite all the time, however if a person is honestly looking for information
and to share ideas with others, there is a BETTER and WORSE way of going about
it.
-David of the Clan Gunn
David Thorpe
Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <3839E1C8...@home.com>...
>David Thorpe wrote:
>
>(snip for brevity)
>
>> Scottish tradition is unnecessary. In the case in point, American
>> "tradition" going back to, I think, 1947, was considered to be quite
>> adequate. As to the change of name, I suspect that quite a few posters
to
>> this group have from time to time used names not legally their own, but
>> which they think perhaps fortify their claims to Scottish heritage.
>
>contrary to your belief, I'm not at all interested in, I think you might
>be misrepresenting us. Yes, we feel ethnic Scottish culture does not
>bend its knee to political borders, and our own brand of ethnic Scottish
>culture may evolve along a different path than Scotland's, but not once
I think Jeff said at one point that "Being unrecognized in Scotland is
totally irrelevant."
>All
>we want to state is that our brand of Scottish ethnicity will be
>different, must be different, and all we want, like yourself, David, is
>some respect, not a simple waving of the hand and saying, "Bah, it's not
>Scottish."
>
Hmmm - is it an awful lot different, I wonder, from the Scottish groups that
purport to portray American culture - the groups, for example, that meet
every now and again to live out The Wild West, the Scottish C & W scene, and
so on? Many participants in these groups take things very seriously indeed
and have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but there's something
innately daft in seeing a load of guys in immaculate and highly researched
cowboy costumes gathered on the seafront at Millport talking to each other
in broad Glasgow accents. I cannot help but wonder what some genuine
Americans visiting from one of the traditional "Wild West" states would make
of it all. And particularly, what would they make of it if, for example,
the Scots cowboys were all wearing tartan stetsons in specially devised
"ranch tartans" to show how their brand of American culture had evolved?
Would the visiting Americans take it seriously and accept it as a valid
evolution of American culture to be properly respected, or would they fall
about laughing?
>As far as name changes, well, I'm guilty as charged. Sean MacUisdin is
>merely the Gaelic spelling of my name. Gaelic is a language I'm working
>on (rather slowly) and I'm proud of my name and its traditional
>spelling. I fail to see what's wrong with that? Should all those ethnic
>Scots, whether in Scotland, England, the US and Canada suddenly revert
>back to the English spelling? Personally I applaud those who are doing
>what they can to preserve our linguistic culture. Here in Canada, for
>example, Gaelic is emerging from obscurity quite rapidly, and it is not
>unknown for people to change the spelling of their names back to the
>traditional Gaelic.
>
>Anyway, I suspect you may disagree, (due mainly to our butting heads in
>the past) but my claims of Scottish ethnicity may be many things, but
>they are not dubious.
>
Sean, whatever I may have said about you in the past <g> I've never cast any
doubts at all on your Scottish ethnicity and would not for a moment seek to
do so. The point I was trying to make is that if Steven Akins wants to
change his name to reflect what he considers to be his Scottish ethnicity,
that per se should not be a cause for ridicule or criticism particulalry
when as you yourself say, many others do likewise. Whether the name is
appropriate or not may be another matter, but in the context of the North
American clan scene, at least as perceived by me from a considerable
distance, it's difficult to say who has the right to decide what is and is
not appropriate.
>(snip again)
>
>> No problem with Steven's Scottish background, as far as I can tell - he's
>> done lots of research and come up with some Lanarkshire ancestors.
Having
>> said that, there's no way that he can lay claim to a clan that would have
>> any credibility here in Scotland. But Steven's not in Scotland - he's in
>> North America, and the difficulty is that if our North American cousins
>> start relaxing the rules
>> and deciding that it is quite in order to create their own clan
traditions,
>> this is the sort of thing that inevitably happens and I fail to see how
they
>> can have any real complaint. "Ohhhh, but we didna ken, we didna ken..."
>> Weel, ye ken the noo.
>
>But that assumes that culture and ethnicity must remain in a vacuum,
>David. Hell, you have to admit that Scottish culture has evolved
>dramatically in the past four hundred years. If strict adherence to
>tradition and rules are so important, then why are you not pushing for a
>reversion back to a pre-Culloden or a pre-Glencoe culture or some other
>point in history?
>
>I guess I would like to know from you, David, at which point in the
>evolution of Scottish culture do you feel a set of rules were initiated
>to govern it?
>
Again, we've been over this before (and disagreed on this before)<g> I
think that the clan system was killed stone dead in the aftermath of the
'45, and if something is killed stone dead it can't be evolved although it
can perhaps be imitated. For something of this nature to evolve, I think
that there has to be a process taking it gradually, in its natural
environment, from one stage of its development to the next. Thanks to the
brutality meted out following Culloden the clan system was never even given
this chance. If a rather disparate group of people living in a foreign land
and primarily subject to the influences, loyalties and lifestyle of that
foreign land then decide to promote the romantic ideals and, all too often,
the myths of the clans, I don't think that that can be termed evolution. I
think that the phrase I used in a previous posting - playing at clans -
remains perfectly valid, and I have no objections at all to the Highland
movement in North America being referred to as the North American clan
system as long as people realise that this is something entirely new with,
frankly, little relevance to the clan system that died, all too often in
abject poverty and misery, in Scotland over 200 years ago. The trouble is
that people probably won't realise it.
I'm very concerned about Scottish history. It's been sadly neglected -
indeed, often and shamefully ignored - in the Scottish education system,
unrealistically romanticised by numerous writers (including many of our own)
and more recently by the film industry, and the all-too-frequent attempts to
bolster the myths - sometimes by supposedly serious historians - merely
serve to distort or even blot out the reality. It's the proud history of a
small and, in today's context, rather insignificant little country and it's
a fragile thing. For those of you whose families have been living abroad
for several generations, it's the history of your ancestors but it's not
your history. We here in Scotland are living in a society that has been
moulded by our history. Our attitudes, our very lives, are formed by our
Scottish history and living traditions, while yours, on the other hand, are
formed primarily by the countries in which you now live and in which
attitudes, lives, values, are so often very different from those here. And
so, yes, I do get a bit angry sometimes when people who may never even have
been to Scotland think that they have the right to take our culture and our
history and mould it to their own requirements and then try to pass it off
as the real thing. The frightening thing is that you over there are much
bigger and more influential than us over here and if you continue to try to
pass it off as the Real Thing one day people will believe that it really is
and the realities of our history will be irretrievably diminished and the
truth lost.
So to get back to the point you made, yes, of course Scottish culture has
evolved dramatically over the past 400 years, but it has evolved in a
Scottish context, reflecting the aspirations and (all too often) fears of
the Scottish people living in a Scottish landscape, enjoying the Scottish
climate, praying in the Scottish Kirk, participating in Scottish politics,
submerged (conciously or otherwise) in all-embracing Scottish culture, and
reacting in their own particularly Scottish way to outside influences. To
complete the picture, you've also got to throw in a touch of Britishness. A
living society has developed, evolved if you'd rather use that word, and I
have no argument with that. But what you have in North America isn't a
living Scottish society and the culture you are "evolving" isn't Scottish
culture, any more than the Millport Wild West Club is "evolving" American
culture. As I see it, if you meddle with Scottish culture all you will do
is to change it and because it is being changed in a foreign, albeit
friendly, environment to suit foreign tastes and requirements, it is no
longer Scottish or, at best, its Scottishness is substantially diminished.
So to answer your next query, there are no rules to govern evolution. That
doesn't matter in the present context, however, because the question of
evolution doesn't arise.
>I hope this proves to you, David, that I can post without vitriol, and
>if vitriol is included in one of my posts, it is always because I felt I
>was on the receiving end first.
Indeed it does , Sean. In turn, I hope that even if you don't agree with
what I've posted you'll appreciate that I've given a lot of thought and
consideration to the topic (Too darned much, everyone cries) and that my
views are genuinely and sincerely held. I've tried my best not to include
anything that could be construed as vitriol - actually, I didn't have to try
because I didn't feel remotely vitriolic - so if you do see anything that
you feel is a bit suspect, please put it down to clumsy language rather than
any ill-will, because none of the latter exists.
David.
John
Steven Akins
<snip>
These would have been British Heraldry in America, Not American Heraldry.
They should appear in the archives of British heraldry if they were not
infact some local Grave stone engravers fancys... Surely your ansestors did
not make up their own arms and heraldry... If they did, that would explain a
lot...
>
> It is more within the domain of my family's property than it is within the
> domain of the entire public. You are forgetting that this is my own family
> we are dealing with, and as such I doubt any court would overturn my
> copyright if it were ever contested by anyone outside of my own family.
There are people for lack of something better to do than to knock the pegs
from under a pompus twit, who would challange this claim. In the Public
Domain mean in the hands of the Public. Even company Trademarks that have
been copyrighten loose their standing through lack of use. The property of
which becomes open to the public.
> There are many families within the Akins Clan, but only a certain few are
> members of the same family from which I descend, others are so distantly
> removed that it would be impossible to make a connection between the many
> various branches that are scattered throughout the world. You must
remember
> we are dealing with a name/family which has been on record in Scotland
since
> the early 1400's, and many branches of it have been in America since the
> 1600's and 1700's, arriving at different times and settling in different
> areas. We have proof of our descent back to the 1600's and have traced our
> own particular lineage from Scotland to Ulster and thence to America, from
> Maryland to North and South Carolina, to Georgia, Alabama, and beyond.
There
> are countless other branches of the Akins Clan here in America which have
no
> clear connection to our own family as their research cannot get back to
that
> point. However, ours is the only line to bear a supported coat of arms,
> indicating by heraldic terms that ours is the principal or chief line.
>
<sniped>
>
> Yes, that is correct. I founded and organized the first annual Heart of
> Dixie Highland Games held in Jasper, Alabama, this past April, we had 24
> clans in attendance (including our own) and we invited them to come and
set
> up their own tents for free, or they could rent one already set-up. Many
> also chose to serve as Games Sponsors by making financial contributions,
> which helped the Games to pay for itself. We had between 5000 and 6000
> people in attendance, which was good for a first year event, especially
> since the town of Jasper is home to only 13,000 people. Most of the
> attendance was from outside the city.
>
I am wondering if you told these Clan Sponsors and Representatives of your
activites and beliefs. Or did you neglect to tell them of your true
feelings... I know Jasper well. Isn't that the town that had the sign
warning blacks (I will not use your words or the words written on the signs)
to not let the sun set on their backsides in Jasper?
>
> Well, IMHO, you don't have much of a games without the Clan tents and the
> vendors. That is very much a part of what attendees are coming to see,
> especially the ones interested in discovering their Scottish cultural
> heritage. Most people will not pay $5.00 to stand around on an athletic
> field and watch athletes lug weights and cabers around all day. They need
> something to keep their attention, and the clan tents and vendors provide
> that.
When you have a true game... not some bazzar, you will notice that is the
very reason that people come. During lulls in the events they will frequent
the Clan Tents. After your first games, twp or three years, the people who
are interested in their true heritage will become seperate from those who
are just tag alongs... The games are all about the games... You can set
your tent up at the mall and get as many or more information seekers as you
would at the games...
>
>
> The Georgia State Clan Akins Commissioner is a distant cousin of mine,
> Chieftain James Wesley Akins of Brunswick, Georgia. His great great
> grandfather and my great great grandfather were brothers. He is fully
aware
> of all the many obstacles that our Clan has had to face, and he shares my
> opinions regarding these matters.
>
Does he also shair your views on race and bigotry...
>
> Yes, I know how to file a lawsuit, I've done it before, and have been
> successful. We are not certain at this point if that is the route we are
> going to pursue, much depends upon the SMHG policy's flexibility. There
are
> a number of holes in their policy however, and this would be in our favor.
>
Could you give an example...
>
> Naturally, this would be the angle by which this would be approached in a
> Civil Liberties type case.The games are held at a public park also, which
> leads to some question as to the ethics of their exclusivist policy. There
> are many factors weighing against them, and it may be that they will
realize
> this and change their decision regading their policy, thus avoiding a
> lawsuit. If not, we may see them in court.
>
So what you are saying is you would shut down the entire Atlanta Stone
Mountain Games because you have been excluded?
Iain...
Steven & Julie Akins
John wrote in message ...
>These would have been British Heraldry in America, Not American Heraldry.
>They should appear in the archives of British heraldry if they were not
>infact some local Grave stone engravers fancys... Surely your ansestors
did
>not make up their own arms and heraldry... If they did, that would explain
a
>lot...
Hmm, this is sounding like a kirkin' o' the' arms issue to me.
>I am wondering if you told these Clan Sponsors and Representatives of your
>activites and beliefs. Or did you neglect to tell them of your true
>feelings...
The subject never came up, although there was some discussion about how the
games might be viewed if the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the Emerald
Guard were allowed to participate, which they ultimately were. Unfortunately
my original design for a heraldic logo for the games (which included the
Confederate battle-flag as the background for the shield on which was
blazoned a thistle, a shamrock, a bagpipe and a clarsach, was rejected after
it was brought to the attention of our very liberal Arts Council president
by the very conservative adjunct of the SCV who said that he and the SCV
"heartily endorsed" the logo. I later changed it to use a St. Andrew's Cross
instead of the star spangled saltire of the Confederacy. Our Mayor is a
native of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and is overly sensitive about the political
connotations inherent in the Confederate battle flag. The athletic
coordinator for the games (who is very active in highland games throughout
the southeast) shares views which are not dissimilar to my own however, as
do quite a number of other people that are involved with Scottish heritage
events.
> I know Jasper well. Isn't that the town that had the sign
>warning blacks (I will not use your words or the words written on the
signs)
>to not let the sun set on their backsides in Jasper?
Well, no, that was our sister community of Cullman, Alabama. That sign has
been down for quite a few years now. Jasper has a growing black population.
Cullman, which was founded by German immigrants after the Civil War, is
completely white. It has the lowest crime rate and the best educated
children in the state.
>When you have a true game... not some bazzar, you will notice that is the
>very reason that people come. During lulls in the events they will
frequent
>the Clan Tents. After your first games, twp or three years, the people who
>are interested in their true heritage will become seperate from those who
>are just tag alongs... The games are all about the games... You can set
>your tent up at the mall and get as many or more information seekers as you
>would at the games...
I have been involved with Scottish heritage for over 15 years and I have
attended many games as a onlooker as well as a Clan representative. The
athletic events have always been overshadowed by the pipebands, the Clan
tents, the vendors, the dancers, the border-collie demos and the food in
that order. After you have seen one caber toss you've pretty much seen them
all.
>> The Georgia State Clan Akins Commissioner is a distant cousin of mine,
>> Chieftain James Wesley Akins of Brunswick, Georgia. His great great
>> grandfather and my great great grandfather were brothers. He is fully
>aware
>> of all the many obstacles that our Clan has had to face, and he shares my
>> opinions regarding these matters.
>Does he also shair your views on race and bigotry...
Actually we have never discussed it in any detail, but among most gentlemen
of the Old South such things are understood.
>Could you give an example...
I could, but I won't.
> So what you are saying is you would shut down the entire Atlanta Stone
>Mountain Games because you have been excluded?
I didn't "say" that.
John
David Thorpe wrote: In response to Sean...
<(snip for brevity)>
I for one having seen the imitation love it... I am as close to a cowboy on
this group as you are likely to get... My first wife was not only a cow
girl... Her daddy owned 30,000 acres, and ran over 6000 head of "COWS", she
was a mormon, and of Scottish Ansestory... McCullough as a matter of
record...
> Hmmm - is it an awful lot different, I wonder, from the Scottish groups
that
> purport to portray American culture - the groups, for example, that meet
> every now and again to live out The Wild West, the Scottish C & W scene,
and
> so on? Many participants in these groups take things very seriously
indeed
> and have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but there's something
<Sniped some more>
> Sean, whatever I may have said about you in the past <g> I've never cast
any
> doubts at all on your Scottish ethnicity and would not for a moment seek
to
> do so. The point I was trying to make is that if Steven Akins wants to
> change his name to reflect what he considers to be his Scottish ethnicity,
You are correct, Steven Akins can do that, regardless how idiotic it
sounds. However, It is important that not only is his ideas foreign to the
Clan System as it was in old Scotland... It is also foreign to the present
day Clan reinactments (for lack of a better word) in present day America...
<(snip snip)>
Now my two cents worth on the new triditions in america... I personally
don't proscribe to the Kirkin of the Tartan... It is good clean fun, and
done as a sign of respect, however not for historic value...
> I'm very concerned about Scottish history.
As I believe most of us... I try to keep up with the history of Our Clan
and the Clan System as a whole.. I spent some time in Scotland when it
wasn't the tourist destination that it is today... I visited many of the
historic sights while there, and got to know many of the World War II vet,
as well as some of the WWI vets... In the 27 odd trips that I made, I only
seen people wearing kilts in a couple places.
These are the ones I remember... The Black Watch in Dress uniform... The
Highland Non Com who frisk me at the airport in Glasgow, and at a event on
the Royal Mile... Other than that, the sight escaped me...
<snip snip>
> as the real thing. The frightening thing is that you over there are much
> bigger and more influential than us over here and if you continue to try
to
> pass it off as the Real Thing one day people will believe that it really
is
> and the realities of our history will be irretrievably diminished and the
> truth lost.
I agree... It is very important that the truth be told... Weather it
involves the Kirkin of the Tartan, or that of the self appointed Clan Akins
chief.
Iain...
Sean MacUisdin
(intense snippage for brevity)
> >I hope this proves to you, David, that I can post without vitriol, and
> >if vitriol is included in one of my posts, it is always because I felt I
> >was on the receiving end first.
>
> Indeed it does , Sean. In turn, I hope that even if you don't agree with
> what I've posted you'll appreciate that I've given a lot of thought and
> consideration to the topic (Too darned much, everyone cries) and that my
> views are genuinely and sincerely held. I've tried my best not to include
> anything that could be construed as vitriol - actually, I didn't have to try
> because I didn't feel remotely vitriolic - so if you do see anything that
> you feel is a bit suspect, please put it down to clumsy language rather than
> any ill-will, because none of the latter exists.
>
> David.
Well, I think we should politely conclude this by agreeing to disagree,
though at least we share concerns for concerns for preserving and
promoting our culture.
Bob Germer
Ed Thomas <ejth...@i1.net> said:
> > In my country, we don't have to agree with everyone. We have the right to
> > say what we think. That doens't mean we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves
> > now and then, but we certainly should not be dragged to our death either
> > literally or figuratively by those who aren't like us.
I don't know where KJ is from, but in the United States of America there
are limits on "free speech" beyond the classic prohibition against yelling
"Fire" in a crowded theater which is not in fact on fire. And we have hate
crime legislation in many states as well as in the Uniform Code of
Military Justice. Mr. Akins comes very close to violating those laws if he
hasn't already.
> >
> > I would appreciate reading this ng more if folks could stick to their
> > knitting and simply express their own ideas without having to jump all over
> > others. The obsession for setting others right is in itself an afflictive
> > disease...
> > KJ
I most respectfully must disagree with KJ. The United States is a
pluralistic society which has risen to the defense of oppressed peoples
around the world, frequently with our blood as well as our money. No
matter what bigots like Akins think, racism is a cancer and must be
eliminated whenever it rears its ugly head.
It is our duty as Americans to defend the weaker members of our society
when they are attacked by radicals, racists, and similar scum. It is bad
enough when rabble rousers such as the Black racist preacher from New York
infantalize their own race. It is inexcusable when a member of the
majority tries it such as Akins is doing.
I grew up in a time when there were 'want ads' in the classified which
specified "Negros and Jews need not apply", "Catholics and Jews need not
apply", "Whites only", etc. This was not in the South, it was in
Philadelphia. Thank God, my generation and the baby boomers of the next
who fought alongside Blacks in Korea and Vietnam had the moral fortitude
to realize that the color of a person's skin had nothing to do with who
that person was. When President Truman forced full integration of the
Armed Services in 1948, he began a process which paved the way for Martin
Luther King and the other heros of the Civil Rights movement here in the
US.
I attended a private high school and was a classmate to the first Black in
the school's history and the only one when we graduated. I learned about
racism when we were Freshman. During the hazing period when we had to wear
beanies, bow ties, our pants rolled up three turns, and mismatched socks
and shoes and obey the orders of the upper classmen, one of the
sophomores, a little guy from Georgia, said to my classmate Jim, "Hey
nigger, carry my books!" The next thing that I saw was the President of
our Student Council and captain of our football team who was likewise from
the South grab the pig and beat the shit out of him. Fitz (the senior)
told everyone within earshot that anyone good enough to gain admission was
our classmate, our schoolmate, and must be respected no matter what his
heritage.
I was 14 at the time. I knew that my father didn't tolerate Jews, didn't
have much use for Italians, didn't want to associate with the Irish, etc.
and was an executive with a company which held separate Christmas parties
for the children of white employees and those of non-whites. He was very
proper and kind in dealing with our day maid, Ella, who came twice a week
to clean our house, do our laundry, etc. But that was probably because
Ella had been my mother's mother's maid before they married and Mother
adored Ella as did my sister and I.
During my college career, I was a member of Villanova's Pershing Rifles
drill team. We were, not inappropriately, known as Whiskey Company,
whiskey being the proper phonetic for the letter W. We were the only NROTC
unit in the Pershing Rifles, a national fraternity of drill teams from
colleges around the world. Colin Powell, former Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, was also a member of the Pershing Rifles and at CCNY at
the same time I was at Villanova. We had a Black member of our drill team
which was led by one Master Sergeant Mulcahy, a classic Marine DI from
somewhere south of the Mason Dixon line. We went on a Navy bus to
Washington, DC to participate in the drill team competitions which were
part of the Cherry Blossom Festival. On our return trip, we stopped at a
Howard Johnson restaurant about 15 miles north of Baltimore, Maryland
along Route 40 (there was not I-95 yet). There were 40 of us plus the Navy
Seaman driving the bus and the good sergeant. They refused to allow the
one Black member to sit with us, telling him he could go around to the
kitchen and eat on the bus.
MSGT Mulcahy told Jim to wait on the bus. He told us all to order the most
expensive item on the menu, a steak and take one bite. We obeyed. (Despite
technically outranking him, we lived in mortal fear of his wrath). When we
had done so, he called the manager and told him, "There are 42 of us on
the bus. I only see 41 here. If I don't see the missing man at this table
in two seconds, we are all leaving right now and will not pay a cent." We
integrated that restaurant well within the allotted time.
Those two lessons, among others, made me examine my father's beliefs. I
couldn't understand why my Irish friends couldn't date Italian girls from
our same parish and vice versa. I didn't understand why Frannie Marsh was
not acceptable as a date because her parents were of Polish ancestry. I
didn't understand as a pre-teen why my friends and I couldn't play with
the Wisenthal kids who lived on the same block. We could and did play with
the other kids who went to public school and those who went to private
elementary schools. But not the Wisenthals who happened to be Jewish. My
sister and I were told it was because they came from Germany and might be
traitors. Of course, I later learned that they escaped from Hitler in the
nick of time.
My other most significant lesson came when we moved from the home in which
I was raised because, in my father's words, "The neighborhood is going to
the dogs. The Dagos are moving in." We were out one snowy January Sunday
looking at new homes. My parents found a new development which consisted
of a sample house, a sea of mud, and a large construction loan. They liked
the location (it was supurb) and the plans of a U shaped 4 bedroom ranch
house which I admit was rather unique although I still to this day
consider sleeping and eating on the same floor akin to living in a motel.
The price was affordable. My father then asked the two builders, Solomon
Blum and Nathan Goodman, "Are many Jews looking at these homes?" "Oh, No,
Mr. Germer, this is not the kind of housing that appeals to Jewish
families." To make a long story short, by the time Goody and Blum went
bankrupt, there were 26 occupied homes, 22 of them by Jewish families. Of
the four Christian families, one was Italian, one was Polish, and one was
Irish. We were the fourth, of course.
Despite my father's often expressed bigotry (when he had a dispute with a
neighbor he would say something like "We fought on the wrong side in World
War II) against them, my sister and I liked many of our new neighbors.
Both of us babysat for them. My friends and I got into teenage pranks such
as skinny dipping in an estate's pool at 2AM when we thought no one was at
home, sneaking out after curfew to drink beer, drag racing our parents'
cars, etc. I dated a few of the females and found them much more
'interesting' than the uptight WASPs from the private schools I normally
dated.
My father and I became estranged when I dared to bring home a Black
Midshipman for dinner during my youngster cruise when our ship pulled into
New York and we had a two day liberty. This was in 1958 and that Middie
(from Harvard) was my friend. He went on to a distinguished career in the
Navy, rising to the rank of Captain. We remained friends until his
untimely death a few years ago.
By the time I was commissioned and did my first tour in SE Asia, I refused
to accept my father's position and told him so. We got into violent
arguments with him sounding exactly like Mr. Akins. When he came to our
house for Christmas, he made a scene when an interracial couple was among
our party guests. I ordered him out of my home and told him not to return
until he learned what the Bible he claimed to believe and the Constitution
he claimed to love taught about tolerance, the equality of all people,
etc. He and Mother left and didn't talk to me for more than 30 years.
One of my nieces married a Black man. My father refused to acknowledge her
three children as his great grandchildren. When he died in 1996 at age 88,
his obituary did not list them which he specifically directed before he
die. Mother, who died last October, did and did accept the 3 kids as her
great grandchildren but only after Dad was buried.
One of my most cherished items is a photograph of my Mother holding her
great great grandson at his Christening shortly before Mother died. My
first great grandson is an interracial child who is the apple of my eye
and that of his great grandmother who as previously stated is from the
Deep South.
I will do anything I can to make the tykes life easier and better. He is a
loving, cute, independent little buggar who cannot be left unwatched for
more than half a second. He looks for opportunities to get into trouble
and is smart enough to figure out locks, heights, gates, barriers, etc. I
used to warn him about misconduct by pointing at him and saying, "One
[pause], two [pause], three" before exacting punishment. That stopped
about the time he was 18 months old when he picked up a valuable procelain
figurine and ignored my order to put it down. I said, "One, Two" and he
pointed at me, said "Three" and smiled sweetly still holding the figurine.
Now he will persist in his misconduct until the last possible moment when
rage is apparent and then say, "I love you" as you are about to smack his
rear end. Hell, if I can manage not to laugh, I consider it a victory.
His life will likely be much harder thanks to the ilk of Steven Akins. I
will do whatever I can to make it easier as it should be.
If our military which traditionally is an in-bred, nearly closed society
(ever think how many Generals and Admirals are the sons, grandsons, etc.
of older flag officers) can successfully integrate have Blacks and other
minorities in command of white service persons, can have women officers
command units, ships, etc. and be the best in the world, there is no valid
reason for the rest of our society to do otherwise.
Rae and I chose our current house where we have lived for the past 8 years
BECAUSE it was a multi-cultural, multi-racial area of mostly young
families and newly weds. We have Black, Indian, Native American, Asian,
etc. neighbors. A composite picture of our front door at Halloween would
look like a Unicef poster.
I call one Black neighbor the local Rentall because if I need a tool, I
know where to borrow it. When my Mother died, our Pakistani motel operator
neighbor brought flowers and asked to take care of our dog while we were
away at her funeral. Someone had cut our lawn and trimmed our shrubs while
we were in Pennsylvania burying her. This is what America promises to
minorities and real Americans try to fulfill.
There is no place for the ilk of Akins here. Would I have preferred our
children to marry within our faith and ethnic heritage? Sure because it
makes life easier when there aren't racial or religious or ethnic
differences within a marriage. But I have no problem with any of our 8
kid's spouses despite several of them being from different heritages and
religions. And every one of our 18 grand children are members of Clan Gunn
despite having last names like Cosma, Beach, Weavers, Cimarielli, and
Chong. And every one is a full-blooded American as well. And as members of
both, all deserve equal treatment from everyone else.
It's long past time the Akins of the world read and understood the parable
of the Good Samaritan. It's long overdue for the racists of this world to
take the Sermon on the Mount to heart if they dare to call themselves
Christians. It's way to late for the bigots to internalize the message in
our laws and Constitution.
I am old enough and smart enough to realize that this would be Utopia. And
I know that Utopia is impossible on this earth. But I won't stop trying.
And I really would like to see the look on Akin's face if he reached
heaven.
--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bo...@Pics.com
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