Re: Implications of resetting the timeline - Star Trek spoilers
Tim Bruening
Kevin Reilly wrote:
> On 23/05/2009 08:04, Michael Grosberg wrote:
>
> > There's no need for a moral argument. The time travel paradigm used in
> > the new Star Trek movie is that of a splitting timeline: when you jump
> > back in time and cause a change, you split the timeline in two. The
> > Kelvin and Vulcan were destroyed but both still exist in the original
> > timeline - it was not "erased". If you go back and attempt to destroy
> > the Narada before it does anything you'll only create another split ad
> > there will be three timelines. It won't help the people who already
> > live in the new timeline where Vulcan and the Kelvin were destroyed.
>
> Possibly, possibly not. It all hinges on the exact nature of the new
> alternate universe that Nero created, which is why I tried to chose my
> words carefully in the original post. The dialogue (between Uhura and
> Spock) in the new Star Trek talks specifically of an 'alternate reality'
> rather than a changed timeline. To me this implied (and has been verified
> by the writers in a post-movie interview) exactly what Michael says above;
> that reality forked at the point the Narada arrived and that both the
> original and rebooted timelines have equal reality.
>
> On the other hand most of the time travel techniques employed in other Star
> Trek episodes and movies have been those whereby the course of a single
> timeline is altered (usually for the worse in the first instance), rather
> than forked. These sorts of scenarios are marginally less ethically charged
> insofar as the characters know how history should have played out, that
> their actions have cocked things up, and that further action can 'put
> things right'. There may still be an ethical consideration in erasing
> everyone in the new timeline, but by leaving things alone they've already
> erased everyone in the original timeline. It's a no-win scenario, morally.
>
> This is why the Narada situation is unique and pretty much unsolvable. If
> someone goes back using almost any of the established Star Trek time travel
> techniques they will be *changing* the history of the second timeline,
> with all of the ethical implications. On the other hand if they use the Red
> Matter method -- assuming it's even possible to fine tune it in such a way
> -- they will be creating a third reality that's almost but not quite
> exactly like the Prime reality, while leaving the second reality intact
> with a smoking hole where Vulcan used to be.
>
> Either way it's ultimately futile. You either can't save the inhabitants of
> 'alternate' Vulcan, or you can only do so by destroying 25 years of
> galactic history. IMO that's just too great a price to pay.
If we use a time travel method that would change the second timeline rather
than creating a third timeline, we can ameliorate the ethical problems by going
back in time to shortly before the attack on Vulcan and stopping Nero then. We
would only be erasing a few days or weeks or maybe months of history to save 6
billion Vulcans! Spock Prime had better act fast before the time elapsed
become ethically untenable!
Tim Bruening
Kevin Reilly wrote:
> This is why the Narada situation is unique and pretty much unsolvable. If
> someone goes back using almost any of the established Star Trek time travel
> techniques they will be *changing* the history of the second timeline,
> with all of the ethical implications. On the other hand if they use the Red
> Matter method -- assuming it's even possible to fine tune it in such a way
> -- they will be creating a third reality that's almost but not quite
> exactly like the Prime reality, while leaving the second reality intact
> with a smoking hole where Vulcan used to be.
>
> Either way it's ultimately futile. You either can't save the inhabitants of
> 'alternate' Vulcan, or you can only do so by destroying 25 years of
> galactic history. IMO that's just too great a price to pay.
What we and Old Spock need is a cloaked ship with a super duper
transporter capable of beaming up 6 billion Vulcans and at least one
human (Amanda) in the nick of time. Might Scotty be capable of
designing such a transporter?
Wouter Valentijn
That reminds me of the story of one of the old Gold Key comics. :-)
Not only an entire population, but also an entire planet was beamed into
some pattern into a storage device to be relocated elsewhere.
--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net
Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's wrong with the world. Ever think about that?
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'
liam=mail
Anim8rFSK
"Wouter Valentijn" <li...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > Kevin Reilly wrote:
> >
> >> This is why the Narada situation is unique and pretty much
> >> unsolvable. If someone goes back using almost any of the established
> >> Star Trek time travel techniques they will be *changing* the
> >> history of the second timeline, with all of the ethical
> >> implications. On the other hand if they use the Red Matter method --
> >> assuming it's even possible to fine tune it in such a way -- they
> >> will be creating a third reality that's almost but not quite exactly
> >> like the Prime reality, while leaving the second reality intact with
> >> a smoking hole where Vulcan used to be.
> >>
> >> Either way it's ultimately futile. You either can't save the
> >> inhabitants of 'alternate' Vulcan, or you can only do so by
> >> destroying 25 years of galactic history. IMO that's just too great a
> >> price to pay.
> >
> > What we and Old Spock need is a cloaked ship with a super duper
> > transporter capable of beaming up 6 billion Vulcans and at least one
> > human (Amanda) in the nick of time. Might Scotty be capable of
> > designing such a transporter?
>
> That reminds me of the story of one of the old Gold Key comics. :-)
> Not only an entire population, but also an entire planet was beamed into
> some pattern into a storage device to be relocated elsewhere.
Trouble is, that made the ship very very very very heavy.
--
MEGA-SHARK VS GIANT OCTOPUS!
A new contender for "worst film of all time"
Deborah Gibson is like a Tracy Lords without talent.
Tim Bruening
Dale wrote:
> > In article <4qkg15dt74u161djtdi43p57d6n01mrbg8@
> 4ax.com>,
> > Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> said:
> >
> >> It must have taken a lot of energy to create a
> second universe.
> >
> > So what?
> >
> > Seriously, so what? Just because there's a
> conservation of
> > mass-energy rule in effect _within_ this universe,
> and presumably
> > also within ones that are very close analogues of
> it, that
> > doesn't mean that there have to be any such thing
> in effect in
> > the whatever-it-is in which those universes co-
> exist and in which
> > new ones ocassionally boing into existence.
> >
> > -- wds
> >
> >
>
> Wouldn't all the infinite unverises be created at the
> time of the big bang? I'm just trying to follow the
> logic in this thread. It as been stated in the movie
> that this is an alt. universe so presumely Nero
> didn't bring it into existance by destorying the
> Kelvin it all ready existed. So history hasn't been
> altered. In the Trek 2 Universe Kirk's father died
> trying to stop Nero's ship.
>
> It's like a pot of boiling water. Each universe is
> just one of the bubbles in it. At times two bubble
> will interset,(Of couse in a real pot of boiling
> water both bubbles burst), thats what happen here
> they temptorarlly joined and then broke a part.
>
> The bottom line is that if Spock Prime did try to
> save the Kelvin he would be changing the true
> history.
Since Nero traveled back to the past of Universe 2, he changed its
history, so Spock Prime would be justified in changing it back!
Dale
Maybe but maybe not. Suppose that George Kirk was
suppose to die in the Trek2 universe when he did and
there is nothing can stop it.
--
Dale
And so it was later
As the Miller told his tale
Her face at first was ghostly
Turned a Whiter shade of pale
Wouter Valentijn
No, you could carry that case in your hand with great ease. It was shaped
like a small sphere.
It was the target of thieves however and a beautiful young woman came on
board that seemingly seduced Spock.
Anim8rFSK
"Wouter Valentijn" <li...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
"humor" :)
Wouter Valentijn
Check this out:
http://curtdanhauser.com/St18.html
http://curtdanhauser.com/Comics.html
Of course all non canon and sometimes very silly, but always fun.