water power in Israel
Pertti Koivisto
waterpower. Distance from Mediterraneum to dead see is only about
hundred kilmoeters. To buid pipeline and build water power station is
quite an easy task. Why not to do. Jordan water is used mainly in
irrigation and as side product would be got salts of different kinds
bot to acriculture and other uses.
Dead Sea would be saved and so environmental problems.
http://users.utu.fi/pertkoiv/
dh...@shawcross.ca
news:874ab381-d05e-4cde...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
This subject has been around for a couple of decades at least. The answer
is that the cost/benefits ratio, including actual $ costs and
environmental costs (yes there will be such), has been such that such a
project is irrational.
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Don Kelly
cross out to reply
Pertti Koivisto
> "Pertti Koivisto" <pertt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
But for instanca security fence has proved its effect and payed it
many times.
Cost is inthe investment phase big but in the result phase situation
salary is huge. Why not to invest ? How to do pipeline
costeffectively?
Pertti Koivisto
I don't speak channel ( that israeli scientict do) but PIPEline that
elimaninates all environmental problems if made correctly. Salt is
vital but also dangerous. In pipeline salt is not wasted to
environment at all. Problem - if made underground - is naturally leaks
and destruction of bottom water but nothing prevents making pipeline
through desert and empty land overground. Salt have been thoudands of
years imortant tradeitem and is today. Pipeline technolgy could be
also big exportproduct.
dow
>
> - Show quoted text -
Have you ever been to Israel? Most of the land between the
Mediterranean and the Dead Sea is not desert. It is quite intensively
farmed. But it is hilly. The pipeline you propose would have to be put
in a long, deep tunnel. Alternatively, the water in it would have to
be pumped up over the hills. Either of these would be very expensive.
The size of the Dead Sea is basically determined by the equilibrium
between the rate water flows into it, mainly from the Jordan River,
and the rate of evaporation from its surface. The Jordan is small, not
much more than a muddy creek. If your pipeline carried a flow equal to
that in the Jordan, which would not provide much hydro-electric power,
the size of the Dead Sea would double. A larger flow in the pipe would
produce an even bigger increase in the sea's area. Everything close to
the Dead Sea, including a lot of expensive tourist facilities, would
be flooded.
The water in the Mediterranean contains about 3 percent of salt. If
your pipe carried, say, 10 cubic metres per second of this salty
water, which is a small flow, about 30 kg per second of salt would be
dumped into the Dead Sea. That's about 3000 tons of salt per day, or a
million tons per year. What do you propose to do with it all?
The whole idea is utterly unrealistic.
dow
Pertti Koivisto
If we should make a pipeline with diameter 20 m 1000cbm/s it would
be enough to regulate the water of the Dead sea. You are hower wrong
in most of your statements. Negev is mostly very sparsely populated
land and there are narrow passes that make possible the solution of
hill problem. The concentration of the salt would be constant in the
dead sea not including bottom of the sea. Naturally amount of salt on
the bottom would be accelareting little compared with the size of the
sea. The dead sea is big, about five times of surface of the sea of
Galilee and big even in international lists of the biggest seas of the
world. So there is space for salt and possible being in deep canyon
regulation makes possible many alternatives including use of salt as
economical trade product and perhaps even raising the surface of the
sea.
Salt from Jordan river could be stopped and all the water of Jordan
used in irrigation. Naturally the country of Jordan has its interests
also. However when Jordan river becomes smaller bcause of irrigation
use,, blowing salt in the air is danger and something must be done.
Many salt including phosphates and nitrates could be used in
acriculture and many others in other industries not to mention
produced electricity
dow
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think you are confusing the Mediterranean and Red seas. Water could
be sent from the Gulf of Aqaba, at the northern end of the Red Sea, to
the Dead Sea without encountering major hills. Both seas lie at the
bottom of the same rift valley. The route would pass through the Negev
Desert, which is nowhere near the line from the Mediterranean to the
Dead Sea. However, the distance is considerably longer.
The Dead Sea is one of the smallest bodies of water in the world to be
called a sea. Its length is only about 50 km, and its width less than
20 km. It is only a tiny fraction of the size of Lake Ontario, beside
which I live, which is about 250 x 50 km. Lake Tiberias (the Sea of
Galilee) is an even smaller puddle. A small river, the Jordan,
connects the two.
The surface of the Dead Sea is about 120 metres below "sea level",
i.e. the level of both the Mediterranean and the Red seas. The
distance from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Dead Sea is about 200 km. So
the average slope is about 0.6 metres per kilometre. Only a very wide
pipe or canal would carry a large volume of water with such a small
slope causing the flow. If the purpose is to produce hydro-
electricity, then the slope would have to be even less. For example, a
canal could be constructed that would take water to a point close to
the Dead Sea but 100 metres higher. The 100-metre drop would push the
water through turbines. But this would require the slope of the canal
to be only 0.1 metres per kilometre. The canal would have to be hugely
wide and deep for a useful amount of water to flow.
A cubic metre of water weighs a ton. The energy that is released if it
falls 100 metres is one million joules. So if 1 m^3 /s of water falls
100 m, one megawatt of power is produced, assuming 100% efficiency. To
produce a gigawatt, which is the kind of power generated by nuclear
stattions, 1000 m^3 per second would have to flow (more, in reality,
because of inefficiencies). But this is much more than the flow of the
Jordan. Even if the Jordan were completely used for irrigation, the
flow into the Dead Sea from your canal would be much greater than the
amount of water it gets now. The area of the Dead Sea would therefore
increase greatly.
I have been to Israel, and to all of the surrounding countries. I know
the terrain, and the difficulties that your project would entail.
Believe me, if it were practical, the Israelis would have done it
already.
dow
Pertti Koivisto
I keep Israelis same like all the other people all over the world ,
even in Egypt lives human beings, you need only to believe. However to
invest to make innovations and do them correctly need ingeniousity
that Israel is short of in pipeline question. There are few fine
personalities in Israel like general Sharon, who did something and
created great wealth and era of peace in Israel.
It was admiring to see the turmoil in politics that his opponents in
Israel and all over the world didn,t understand but feared. Afterwards
were are wiser and as some feared in the corner Sharon is best. But he
had to make investmensts , painful money would be given to
constraction firms. also, without them little could be achived. That,s
a problem. TO DO SOMETHING.
http://users.utu.fi/pertkoiv/
Pertti Koivisto
> The Dead Sea is one of the smallest bodies of water in the world to be
> called a sea. Its length is only about 50 km, and its width less than
> 20 km. It is only a tiny fraction of the size of Lake Ontario, beside
> which I live, which is about 250 x 50 km. Lake Tiberias (the Sea of
> Galilee) is an even smaller puddle. A small river, the Jordan,
> connects the two.
Another mistake again, the see of Galilee is about 200sqkm and the
dead sea 1000 sqkm on surface. in the world are millions of lakes but
only few that category of sizeof the dead see. And you ignore that
powerstation can give energy to salt production especially when it is
near. The dead sea maust be saved preventing enviromental problems
kind of Aral lake in Kazahstan
dow
What mistake? I said the Dead Sea is about 50 x 20 km, so its area is
roughly 1000 sq.km, just as you said. Lake Tiberias is smaller.
I've been there, and seen them. I know from first-hand experience that
the Dead Sea is much smaller than any of the North American Great
Lakes, for example. If I stand on the shore of Lake Ontario, near my
house, I cannot even see across the width of the lake. If you stand on
the shore of the Dead Sea, near the middle of its length, you can see
land all the way around.
The Israelis have the advantage of receiving huge amounts of money
from abroad, mainly the United States. If building a canal from the
Red Sea to the Dead Sea were practical, they could afford to do it.
They haven't built it for good reasons.
dow
Pertti Koivisto
Israel gets huge numbers of many being an ally of superpower
tunrning himself being even bigger than USA. So money is not
necessarily problem, perhaps it was when first big waves of aliya came
from Finland 130 years ago.
Money was not a problem for Ariel Sharon but for Ehud Barak it was.
Today Israel is richest country in the world thank one man Sharon. The
war needs urgently only one soldier if he is brilliant. When Iran was
pouring to the Israeli military theatre enourmous numbers of kamikaze
human bombs Ehud had no solution to the problem and even he had he
couldn.t use it. Ariel did both. The way how peace was becoming nearer
and nearer and terror diminishing step by step is nearly miracle to
follow at least when knows the process. New big parties emerges , old
and new politicians went out and in. Israel retreated from Gaza in the
same time keeping the country stable with Jerusalem its eternal
capital waiting for messianic age to come true. In the same time
Israel kept Jordan valley and begin construction of Judea and Samaria.
That led big strikes in the largest jewish community in the world in
New York 11.9.2001 and led Iraq war, that ended with large majority of
worlds vital oil reserves in Israeli hands and Israel biggest
superpower of the world with Mont Sion its capital. This process led
all Israeli foes in rapid decline for instance in Europe and
elesewhere.
I think this process can be true in other sectors of society than
of defence. The problem is to know and make correctly and have a
person who fulfills these preconditions.
dh...@shawcross.ca
"Pertti Koivisto" <pert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:010019f0-513b-409b...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------
The security fence is a political approach which is not new. It was
temporarily effective in early ages until the enemy outside learned to build
weapons that made walls ineffective. The wall was eventually ineffective in
Berlin. Do you really think that it will be effective in Israel for more
than a short period of time? Has it stopped rockets or ideas? Has it
produced peace? Walls work for a while, but in the end, worsen the situation
and are a short term (i.e. political) solution.
The concept of a pipeline to the Dead Sea is another matter- hard nosed
engineering rather than wishful thinking has dealt with and rejected this on
the basis of knowledge of the costs and benefits. Israeli engineers aren't
stupid.
Pertti Koivisto
Isarel in fact has thousands of fences for instance bush-fences
around houses.
Also isrelis built walls around cities already 4000 years ago. That is
not news.
Security fence works if it is built to work and Sharon fence has
really worked. Bombs and terrorism has dropped zero or at least buses
go were needed etc. That is new in hundred year. In fact fence
construction is halted. Fence belongs to the peaceful "Shabbat Shalom"
strategy, lives of hundreds of terrorists also have been saved. Fence
doesn,t kill that is why it has such a great opppisition is Israel
Europe and diaspora and elesewhere. In fact Gaza had a fence around
already 1994 but it cann,t be compared to Sharon fence its comparison
is China wall.
>
> The concept of a pipeline to the Dead Sea is another matter- hard nosed
> engineering rather than wishful thinking has dealt with and rejected this on
> the basis of knowledge of the costs and benefits. Israeli engineers aren't
> stupid.
Israel enginers have not idea of pipeline that solves salt problem ,
they don,t work in dead sea factories also. In this forum nobody has
proved pipeline idea mistake. Its is a huge project although not as
huge as sharon project. Mathematics on the table .