Movie of Battle of Thermopylae ? One ever been made?
Archimedes Plutonium
--- quoting Academic American Encyclopedia ---
Topic: Thermopylae, {thur-mahp'-uh-lee}
Text:
Thermopylae is a pass in Greece lying between Mount Oeta and the
Gulf of Malia's southern
shore. Now wider than in ancient times, it was, because of its
strategic importance on the route
from Thessaly to Locris, the site of three notable battles. In 480
BC the Spartans under LEONIDAS
heroically defended Thermopylae against Xerxes' Persians
--- end quoting Academic American Encyclopedia ---
Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film. It should make an
excellent 2-3 hour movie, perhaps one of the best movies ever. No other
battle comes to my mind where so much odds, so much importance to a
civilization and so much heroics as this battle.
What brings this up is that today I heard a lecturer on ancient
Greeks say that 300 of the Spartans held back thousands of Persians.
That they were combing their hair before battle knowing that they would
die. There was a traitor in the battle.
Said that the Spartans had a better way of fighting in that they
shielded one to another in closed formation. Another encyclop mentions
that the Greek spear was longer than the Persian.
Does our knowledge of this battle come only from Herodotus? What are
some accurate numbers of Greeks versus Persians at Thermopylae?
Has any movie portrayed this battle?
Archimedes Plutonium
In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
> What brings this up is that today I heard a lecturer on ancient
> Greeks say that 300 of the Spartans held back thousands of Persians.
> That they were combing their hair before battle knowing that they would
> die. There was a traitor in the battle.
The lecturer mentioned that Herodotus wrote into his history a
"balancing of justice" that the Spartans had killed some innocent
envoys earlier. And now much later that injustice was to catch up to
them in the form of Leonidas and his loyal Spartans were all to die at
Thermopylae. I thought that was an interesting Proton-gods belief that
justice does always balance out.
If a movie is made of Thermopylae, and it seems that the worlds best
movies are historical movies, I sincerely hope they include that part
where the Spartans had killed innocent envoys and Herodotus's sense of
balancing out injustices.
Jimmy The Greek
In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Archimedes Plutonium <Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>--- quoting Academic American Encyclopedia ---
>
> Topic: Thermopylae, {thur-mahp'-uh-lee}
> Text:
> Thermopylae is a pass in Greece lying between Mount Oeta and the
>Gulf of Malia's southern
> shore. Now wider than in ancient times, it was, because of its
>strategic importance on the route
> from Thessaly to Locris, the site of three notable battles. In 480
>BC the Spartans under LEONIDAS
> heroically defended Thermopylae against Xerxes' Persians
>
>--- end quoting Academic American Encyclopedia ---
>
> Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film. It should make an
>excellent 2-3 hour movie, perhaps one of the best movies ever. No other
I have seen an American movie about this battle that was probably made
in the '60s. It was reminiscent of Liz Taylor's Cleopatra in terms of
the genre. However, I can't remember the name. The movie was OK in
my opinion.
>battle comes to my mind where so much odds, so much importance to a
>civilization and so much heroics as this battle.
> What brings this up is that today I heard a lecturer on ancient
>Greeks say that 300 of the Spartans held back thousands of Persians.
>That they were combing their hair before battle knowing that they would
>die. There was a traitor in the battle.
> Said that the Spartans had a better way of fighting in that they
>shielded one to another in closed formation. Another encyclop mentions
>that the Greek spear was longer than the Persian.
The Spartans were not alone. There were about 6,000 Greek allies with
him at the stand. On the third day, reinforcements did not arrive and
Leonidas dismissed all but his Spartans. A few hundred Thebans and
Thespians remained behind. All were wiped out soon afterwards. There
was no specific traitor. The Greek allies decided to fight the
Persians in another location and therefore did not send any of the
promised reinforcements.
There has been a movie but I do not remember the title or the actors,
although I do believe it was American made.
Later
Demetrios
Georgios Savopulos
Jimmy The Greek (ji...@CIM.McGill.CA) wrote:
: The Spartans were not alone. There were about 6,000 Greek allies with
: him at the stand. On the third day, reinforcements did not arrive and
: Leonidas dismissed all but his Spartans. A few hundred Thebans and
: Thespians remained behind. All were wiped out soon afterwards. There
This is not entirely correct; Leonidas dismissed all but his ~300
Spartans and the Thebans; the latter were kept as virtual hostages, as
Herodotos mentions, because Leonidas suspected that they'll betray the
Greek cause. The Thespians remained on their own free will. At the most
part, the Thebans survived the battle; all the rest perished but one;
the Spartan Aristodemos who, being ill at the time of the final battle
and away from the fighting, escaped death but not dishonour at the eyes
of his compatriots. He later died at Platees, trying to "wash out" the
disgrace, at the final battle of the Persian wars. As Herodotus puts it:
"The bravest man by far on that day was, in my judgement, Aristodemos
-the same who alone escaped from the slaughter of the three hundred at
Thermopylae and who on that account had endured disgrace and reproach".
Sparta refused to grant him public honours, alone of all the fallen
Spartans that distinguished themselves in Platees on account that he
had courted death: "that Aristodemos, who, on account of the blame
attached to him, had manifestly courted death, and had therefore left
his place in the line and behaved like a madman ...".
: Later
: Demetrios
--
Georgios Savopulos
_______________________________________________________________________
The ancient simplicity into which honour so largely entered was laughed
down and disappeared; and society became divided into camps in which no
man trusted his fellow.
Thucydides: Prelude to the Peloponnesian war.
Archimedes Plutonium
In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
> What brings this up is that today I heard a lecturer on ancient
> Greeks say that 300 of the Spartans held back thousands of Persians.
> That they were combing their hair before battle knowing that they would
> die. There was a traitor in the battle.
Relistened to the lecture and made notes almost verbatim.
--- quoting in part Professor Andrew Szegedy-Maszak, Wesleyan
University, Lecture 5: The Ionian Philosophers and Herodotus ---
Herodotus-- he quotes Pindar who says "custom is king of all"...
Conflict between Greeks and Persians . . in 490 ostensibly in revenge
for the Athenian burning of Sardis. Darius leads a huge force onto the
Greek mainland. Paralyzed alarm . . Athenians with help of Plataea
meet the Persians . . . Battle of Marathon . . Marathon an
extraordinary event . . numbers are very very chancy . . Greeks vastly
outnumbered . . 6300 Persians dead, 192 Greek. Noone would have
thought this. Athens becomes the leader . . .
Xerxes, son of Darius . . . had a servant stationed on the hour
saying "Remember Marathon".
Xerxes . . bridge the Hellespont . . storms wreck the bridge . .
engineers beheaded. Another bridge built.. land army crosses over
Xerxes sends envoys demanding earth and water, which are signs of
submission.... mediis as it is called meaning to go over to the
Persians. When the envoys come to Athens however they are killed. When
they come to Sparta they are tossed into a well and told to get their
own earth and water. The thing is that this is a major sacrilege. .
envoys then as now travel under diplomatic immunity.
The Athenians have had a prophecy that their city is to be saved by
wooden walls . . Themisticles .. ships .. wooden hulls of ships . .
The Athenians have recently gotten a bonus. . they struck a rich lode
of silver at their mines in Laurisiem and set about building ships to
meet the Persian ships. Navy . . . naval warfare . . . major social
and political change (because) of naval policy.
Land army makes its way North to a pass called Thermopylae, the hot
gates. . . Spartans have gone up and fortified this pass . . which is
the only real way into the South. They dismiss their other allies. .
and take a stand. This is the famous stand of the 300. Three hundred
Spartans with their King Leonidas hold off the Persians.
Xerxes sends a messenger over, a spy, to see what the Spartans are
doing. The messenger observes and reports back astonished that the
Spartans are outside their camps exercising and combing-out their long
hair. Xerxes laughs and he calls for a Spartan king, who in a dynastic
squabble has had to leave Sparta, has gone over to the Persian side.
Spartan king Demeratis. . But he says to the King, don't laugh, that
means they are getting ready to die.
They send wave after wave of assault against the pass at
Thermopylae. And 100s and 100s, perhaps 1000s of Persians are killed.
Because Spartans hold this narrow pass. Finally a Greek traitor leads a
Persian contingent around. That the Spartans are caught in a pincers,
and annihilated to the last man, including the King. The Spartans lost
their King it is said because they had killed the envoys.
In Herodotus every transgression is eventually balanced. Saw it even
with Kendalis and Gijes (spelling)... might take 5 generations.
The wheels of justice grind slow but they grind exceedingly small.
. . . Thermopylae bought the Greeks valuable time.
--- end quoting in part Professor Andrew Szegedy-Maszak, Wesleyan
University, Lecture 5: The Ionian Philosophers and Herodotus ---
I am interested in this perceived justice of the ancient Greeks. We
must realize that since the ancient Greeks were given the Atomic
Theory, means that probably their god/gods conception was more correct,
ie, better than most conceptions of the godhead. This fits nicely with
the 231PU theory for the 94 Protons are each individualistic gods, and
the electrons could be viewed as many antigods, devils. The Greeks
sense of justice as told by Herodotus thus takes on added important
meaning. The civilization blessed with the first Atomic Theory is also
blessed with the best god view of the universe.
Archimedes Plutonium
In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
> Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
--- emailer sent me ---
Hi Hope you don't mind e-mail. I remember seeing a movie starring
Richard Egan about a battle in which Spartan soldiers were wiped out.
I think it was from the late 50's or early 60's. He's the only
actor I can remember from it. I think it might have been called
300 Spartans or something simple like that. I think it had Spartans
in the title. The Martin & Porter movie guide doesn't list it
under either that actor or the 300 Spartans title. I'm sure he was
in it though. I thought it was pretty good. I've seen it on TV
maybe more than once, ages ago. Maybe the movie database would have
it under Egan's name. Bye
--- end of emailer speaks ---
Georgios Savopulos
Archimedes Plutonium (Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
: They send wave after wave of assault against the pass at
: Thermopylae. And 100s and 100s, perhaps 1000s of Persians are killed.
: Because Spartans hold this narrow pass. Finally a Greek traitor leads a
: Persian contingent around. That the Spartans are caught in a pincers,
: and annihilated to the last man, including the King. The Spartans lost
: their King it is said because they had killed the envoys.
This is not entirely correct either... Leonidas and a lot of the
Spartans died before the Persian contigent crossed the passage and
positioned itself at their backs; Leonidas knew that the contigent
was on its way and that his forces were soon to be surrounded, so
his final battle plan was to go further away from the narrows and
take down as many Persians as they could before that happened...
--
Georgios Savopulos
_______________________________________________________________________
Reckless audacity came to be considered the |
courage of a loyal ally; prudent hesitation, | Thucydides
specious cowardice; moderation was held to be | ____________
a cloak for unmanliness; ability to see all | Prelude to the
sides of a question inaptness to act on any. | Peloponnesian war.
_______________________________________________________________________
Bricklayer
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) wrote:
>
> In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
> Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
>
> > Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
There was a great film called "Go Tell the Spartans" with Burt
Lancaster. It was about vietnam but had parrallels with themopoly.
I enjoyed it. Havn't seen it in 15 years though.
lamont
In article <4lu2hn$q...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) wrote:
> In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
> Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
>
> > Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
>
> --- emailer sent me ---
>
> Hi Hope you don't mind e-mail. I remember seeing a movie starring
> Richard Egan about a battle in which Spartan soldiers were wiped out.
> I think it was from the late 50's or early 60's. He's the only
> actor I can remember from it. I think it might have been called
> 300 Spartans or something simple like that. I think it had Spartans
> in the title. The Martin & Porter movie guide doesn't list it
> under either that actor or the 300 Spartans title. I'm sure he was
> in it though. I thought it was pretty good. I've seen it on TV
> maybe more than once, ages ago. Maybe the movie database would have
> it under Egan's name. Bye
I recall seeing this movie in the theatres about this time. I do believe
it was called 300 Spartans, and Richard Egan seems correct. Since the
movie has pretty much faded from sight, chances are it was mediocre at
best. However, I remember liking it--but keep in mind I was young and
fascinated with Greek history and warfare.
I remember at least three things the movie emphasized:
1. The Spartans, knowing the odds were against them, did party and wash
their hair in full sight of the Persians.
2. A traitor led a Persian contingent across the pass so they could attack
the Spartans from behind. Incidently, I think the movie made of point of
saying teh 300 warriors were not just members of the Spartan Army but
members of the King's private guard.
3. The Spartans made use of sophisticated formations that confounded the
Persion attackers. I don't know how much of this was based on fact and how
much on Hollywood story telling. As I recall, the movie version showed the
Spartans forming triangles 2 ranks deep, yes, with shields locked together
along the first rank and the soldiers in the second rank free to thrust
and hack at the enemy. Large triangular formations could split into two
triangles when tactics called for seperate thrusts, then regroup into one
rather quickly. In one memorable scene, the Persians tried to surprise the
Spartans with a cavalry attack. The Spartans, however, being alert as well
as disciplined, somehow sensed the presence of horses moments before the
charge. When the cavalry broke through the ranks of the Persians at full
gallop, the Spartans (remember, they were in two ranks) lay under their
shields, allowing the horses to rush over them and into the Spartan trap.
Immediately the Spartans jumped to their feet. The second rank closed in
on and slaughtered the Persian cavalry which, being surrounded and
confined in a small area, had no room to manuever. Meanwhile, the first
rank met and withstood the coordinated attack from the Persian foot
soldiers, holding on until the second rank rejoined them. The two ranks
together forced the Persian Army to retreat. An overhead camera caught the
intricate workings of Spartan tactics to good effect.
lamont
--
"My favorite back supersets are chins
compounded with seated pulley rows,
upright rows with barbell shrugs, and
lat pulldowns with machine pullovers."
-- Eduardo Kawak
Archimedes Plutonium
> > Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
>
> --- emailer sent me ---
>
> Hi Hope you don't mind e-mail. I remember seeing a movie starring
> Richard Egan
--- emailer wrote with info on bows-arrows and a website ---
The IMDB listing for _The 300 Spartans_ starring Richard Egan is at
http://www.msstate.edu/M/title-exact?1D392.
Whenever the subject comes up, I always wait to see if anyone else
remembers that in addition to his 300 Spartans, Leonidas had 5600
other troops (mostly mercenaries I think; I used to research warfare
but its been years since I saw the actual breakdown) at his command.
It's possible that Leonidas allowed any of the non-Spartans to abandon
the field before the final massacre, but I seem to recall that many
were in fact present at the end.
Legend quotes Leonidas' response to a Persian commander's boast that
their "arrows will cover the sun" as, "Then we shall fight in the
shade."
Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
--- thank you emailer ---
I had wondered about bows and arrows and it seems the same in
BRAVEHEART that the bow and arrow were the most potent weapons. I
suppose if the Spartans had got on high ground like in the movie
GETTYSBURG (brilliantly done) that the bow and arrow and even hand
combat would have tipped the odds into the Spartan favor.
Has anyone seen this Thermopylae pass and is it possible that the
Spartans had the high ground where the Persians had to come up whereas
the Spartans could rush down or shoot their arrows better?
Anyone know where the bow and arrow were invented?
Archimedes Plutonium
In article <4luho1$m...@ralph.vnet.net>
Bricklayer <al...@vnet.net> writes:
> There was a great film called "Go Tell the Spartans" with Burt
> Lancaster. It was about vietnam but had parrallels with themopoly.
> I enjoyed it. Havn't seen it in 15 years though.
The battle of Thermopylae stirs my blood, why it does I do not know,
just a feeling. Probably because of the elements of the circumstances,
totally outnumbered and prepared to die. To take it as a man.
I have seen the recent movie of GETTYSBURG, with their lust for the
"high ground". Historic movies are far better than any fiction movie.
I wish that someone would honor in memory the BATTLE OF THERMOPYLAE
of as high a quality per facts and location and true to history as what
the film industry gave for GETTYSBURG.
I understand that the Greek government in the 1950s erected a statue
and a memorial in honor of the heroic stand. But I do not believe this
is enough of an 'memory'.
One thing good about the Internet is that perhaps we can voice our
opinions and persuasions to the movie moguls and directors that we do
not want another fiction plastic made up movie but that we want
something more meaningful. I have the sense that the Battle of
Thermopylae holds out important meaning to Western Culture and
Civilization. That what if the Persians under Xerxes had conquered the
Greeks and how different would the world be now? Perhaps Western
Civilization owes a debt of gratitude, at least a vivid awareness of
what some very heroic Greeks, Spartans did so very long ago.
I remember in High School learning world history that the teacher
emphasized how important was a battle in Spain to fight the Muslims,
and should they have lost, much of Europe would now be under Middle
East rule.
How much did it cost Turner Movies to make GETTYSBURG? I would think
that to make THERMOPYLAE should be comparable. I wonder if the music
genius Vangelis could compose another masterpiece for his homeland in
THERMOPYLAE?
Arnold Marquez
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) wrote:
>In article <4ls1e6$a...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
>Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
>> Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
>--- emailer sent me ---
>Hi Hope you don't mind e-mail. I remember seeing a movie starring
>Richard Egan... Maybe the movie database would have
>it under Egan's name. Bye
>--- end of emailer speaks ---
The IMDB listing for _The 300 Spartans_ starring Richard Egan is at
http://www.msstate.edu/M/title-exact?1D392.
Whenever the subject comes up, I always wait to see if anyone else
remembers that in addition to his 300 Spartans, Leonidas had 5600
other troops (mostly mercenaries I think; I used to research warfare
but its been years since I saw the actual breakdown) at his command.
It's possible that Leonidas allowed any of the non-Spartans to abandon
the field before the final massacre, but I seem to recall that many
were in fact present at the end.
Legend quotes Leonidas' response to a Persian commander's boast that
their "arrows will cover the sun" as, "Then we shall fight in the
shade."
Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
Arnold
Archimedes Plutonium
Someone else wrote:
> Whenever the subject comes up, I always wait to see if anyone else
> remembers that in addition to his 300 Spartans, Leonidas had 5600
> other troops (mostly mercenaries I think; I used to research warfare
> but its been years since I saw the actual breakdown) at his command.
> It's possible that Leonidas allowed any of the non-Spartans to abandon
> the field before the final massacre, but I seem to recall that many
> were in fact present at the end.
"Research warfare" sounds rather interesting. A quick question
immediately pops to my mind after watching BRAVEHEART and now reading
about Thermopylae.
And of course Marcellus Roman army. The idea is quite simple. The idea
is to prepare for warfare especially in a special combat unit and or
individuals. A spy unit would be most effective. Ones trained in
suicide missions. And there are plenty of gung-ho types who fit this
bill. Train them so well that they go in and as a spy or some means
dispatch the leader. For instance in William Wallace dispatch King
Longshanks. In Thermopylae dispatch Xerxes and in the Romans siege of
Syracuse, dispatch Marcellus.
Obviously a "Mission Impossible" type of planning needed to be worked
out. But even so, I would think that the spies could penetrate the
leader in the field. And with the superior brains, success should have
been relatively high.
I can think of no faster way of disarraying an entire army set
against oneself than to remove the leader of the opposing force. Why
spend so much energy in the battlefront when the most vulnerable part
of the enemy is the leaders. It seems to me that no Xerxes or Marcellus
or Longshanks were so well guarded that dispatching could not have
preempted the war.
End of the Queen ant or bee is the end of the soldiers.
Does anyone know of examples in the history where leaders were
dispatched and the war sublimed? Of course it would be difficult to get
people to complete suicide missions. But I imagine that this is
probably going on in many militaries of the world.
BOB
the title of the movie about this battle is The 300 Spartans
Yorgos Papatheodorou
In article <4m0sua$b...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) wrote:
>> > Anyone know if this famous battle was put to film.
>>
>Whenever the subject comes up, I always wait to see if anyone else
>remembers that in addition to his 300 Spartans, Leonidas had 5600
>other troops (mostly mercenaries I think; I used to research warfare
>but its been years since I saw the actual breakdown) at his command.
Yes, the initial force was about 6000; but once it was clear they were
doomed, Leodidas allowed the non-Spartan troops to leave; all but
his own 300 Spartans and 700 Thespians (who I believe were local
people) stayed. So in the final battle there were 1000 troops in
all, but the poor Thespians got little credit. According to
Herodotos the Persian finally overwhelmed the defenders by
using an obscure path to flank them and attack them from
behind; the Greek traitor who showed them the path was
called Ephialtes (which means "nightmare" by the way).
The Spartans (and presumable the Thespians) all died
in battle, and on their memorial the famous epigram
was written: "Stranger, bring the news to the
Lacaedomonians, that here we lie in obedience to their
orders".
>It's possible that Leonidas allowed any of the non-Spartans to abandon
>the field before the final massacre, but I seem to recall that many
>were in fact present at the end.
>
>Legend quotes Leonidas' response to a Persian commander's boast that
>their "arrows will cover the sun" as, "Then we shall fight in the
>shade."
>
>Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
>
>--- thank you emailer ---
>
> I had wondered about bows and arrows and it seems the same in
>BRAVEHEART that the bow and arrow were the most potent weapons. I
>suppose if the Spartans had got on high ground like in the movie
>GETTYSBURG (brilliantly done) that the bow and arrow and even hand
>combat would have tipped the odds into the Spartan favor.
As far as I know, in ancient Greece archers were considered
auxiliary troops, meant to harass the enemy's flank. They were
usually merecenaries from the fringes of the greater Greek world
(Phrygians, Cretans etc.). The Spartan fighters would have
been heavy infantry troops (hoplitai), armored with helmet,
breastplate, shield and greaves, and wielding spears and swords.
So no, they didn't rely on bows and arrows, and didn't occupy
high ground--see below:
>
> Has anyone seen this Thermopylae pass and is it possible that the
>Spartans had the high ground where the Persians had to come up whereas
>the Spartans could rush down or shoot their arrows better?
Thermopylae at that time (480 BCE) was a very narrow defile
sandwiched between sheer cliffs and the sea; at the narrowest
point, again according to Herodotos (just about the only source),
it was too narrow for two chariots to pass each other by. Therefore
the Persian hordes (there were several hundred thousand of them,
as many as a million in total including auxiliaries and
hangers on) totally lost the advantage of numbers, since
only a few dozen at a time could storm the pass. Nowadays,
silt deposits from a nearby river estuary have extended the coastline
so much that it's as much as a mile wide, and it's hard to
imagine how strategic the pass was at the time.
>
> Anyone know where the bow and arrow were invented?
No, I don't personally, but it's many thousands of years old
and practically universal in human culture. Asians, from
Phrygia in Asia Minor to the steppes of central Asia
were the acknowledged masters of archery, especially
the central Asian cavalry troops. In contrast, since Homeric times
Greeks relied on heavy infantry for their main force in
battle. The Macedonian phalanx is an extreme example:
standing shoulder to shoulder behind large shields and
with 20-foot spears bristling in front of them and above
them, stamping their feet and bellowing the "paean"
battle songs, they broke through enemy lines by sheer
concentrated force and intimidation. Archers and javelin-
throwers were used to harass, demoralize and confuse, and
so was cavalry (except Macedonian cavalry, which was
heavily armed and trained and took on much more serious
battle roles). Of course cavalry did not become a
significant force before the invention of the stirrup
in the 8th century AD or so.
Yorgos
Carlos Nunes-Ueno
In article <4m0sua$b...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Archimedes Plutonium <Archimedes...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>Whenever the subject comes up, I always wait to see if anyone else
>remembers that in addition to his 300 Spartans, Leonidas had 5600
>other troops (mostly mercenaries I think; I used to research warfare
>but its been years since I saw the actual breakdown) at his command.
>It's possible that Leonidas allowed any of the non-Spartans to abandon
>the field before the final massacre, but I seem to recall that many
>were in fact present at the end.
>
>Legend quotes Leonidas' response to a Persian commander's boast that
>their "arrows will cover the sun" as, "Then we shall fight in the
>shade."
>
>Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
>
>--- thank you emailer ---
>
> I had wondered about bows and arrows and it seems the same in
>BRAVEHEART that the bow and arrow were the most potent weapons. I
>suppose if the Spartans had got on high ground like in the movie
>GETTYSBURG (brilliantly done) that the bow and arrow and even hand
>combat would have tipped the odds into the Spartan favor.
>
> Has anyone seen this Thermopylae pass and is it possible that the
>Spartans had the high ground where the Persians had to come up whereas
>the Spartans could rush down or shoot their arrows better?
>
> Anyone know where the bow and arrow were invented?
Bows have been around for a long, long time. But the battle of Thermopoly
was lost because Leonidas allowed himself to be outflanked. Down through
the centuries, Leonidas has been held up as an example of a self
sacrificing leader who made a valiant last stand against long odds. All
true, but if Leonidas had chosen a better field for battle, we might
remember him today for an incredible victory rather than a valiant defeat.
All IMHO,
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|-Carlos Nunes-Ueno su...@eskimo.com Eskimo North, gotta love it!-|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"The wood porch faced east. First sunrise burned the mist from the hilly |
|hollows, then dried out the webs spiders spun overnight between leaves of |
|grass. A distant chain saw cut into the birdsong; the rising wind whipped |
|blue butterflies with stalks of goldenrod." |
| -Actual copy from a Japanese brand of instant coffee |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier Samani Marions Panyaught NYC-11357-3436-287-USA
I visited Thermopylae in 1975 and was surprised to find the wind
had long since worn down the path so it was wide enuf for a
national hiway to go thru.. gosh, where are all those
historical preservationists to sue the wind when you need them?
--
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
Bach-Mozart ReaganQuayleGramm Evrytano-Kastorian Cit:MarquisWhWFinanc&Indus
[00035...@mcimail.com , 76530...@CompuServe.Com, vj...@dorsai.org]
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
Arnold Marquez
yor...@LGE.COM (Yorgos Papatheodorou) wrote:
[snip]
>> I had wondered about bows and arrows and it seems the same in
>>BRAVEHEART that the bow and arrow were the most potent weapons. I
>>suppose if the Spartans had got on high ground like in the movie
>>GETTYSBURG (brilliantly done) that the bow and arrow and even hand
>>combat would have tipped the odds into the Spartan favor.
>As far as I know, in ancient Greece archers were considered
>auxiliary troops, meant to harass the enemy's flank. They were
>usually merecenaries from the fringes of the greater Greek world
>(Phrygians, Cretans etc.). The Spartan fighters would have
>been heavy infantry troops (hoplitai), armored with helmet,
>breastplate, shield and greaves, and wielding spears and swords.
>So no, they didn't rely on bows and arrows, and didn't occupy
>high ground--see below:
>>
>> Has anyone seen this Thermopylae pass and is it possible that the
>>Spartans had the high ground where the Persians had to come up whereas
>>the Spartans could rush down or shoot their arrows better?
[snip]
>> Anyone know where the bow and arrow were invented?
>No, I don't personally, but it's many thousands of years old
[snip]
>Yorgos
Interesting, because in the _300 Spartans_ movie, Leonidas et al are
finally put away by repetitive, sun-darkening volleys of arrows as I
recall (I last saw this movie at least 25 years ago). I seem to
remember them vainly holding up their shields as the arrows rained
down, the collective body of soldiers shrinking with each volley, till
finally the last of them collapsed under the onslaught of projectiles.
What I remember is the rhythm of the shots, cutting between the
flights of arrows and the contracting circle of Spartan soldiers.
I guess the idea is that the Persians and their mercenaries could not
best the Spartans man-to-man, and had to finally be dealt with at a
distance.
Perhaps not historically accurate, but dramatic, no?
Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
Arnold
Archimedes Plutonium
In article <4m566v$7...@news1.sunbelt.net>
yor...@LGE.COM (Yorgos Papatheodorou) writes:
> "Stranger, bring the news to the
> Lacaedomonians, that here we lie in obedience to their
> orders".
Is Lacaedomonia the region of Sparta? Can someone elaborate on the
above epigram?
BOB
Petros Liapis
Carlos Nunes-Ueno wrote:
> Bows have been around for a long, long time. But the battle of Thermopoly
> was lost because Leonidas allowed himself to be outflanked. Down through
> the centuries, Leonidas has been held up as an example of a self
> sacrificing leader who made a valiant last stand against long odds. All
> true, but if Leonidas had chosen a better field for battle, we might
> remember him today for an incredible victory rather than a valiant defeat.
>
> All IMHO,
...hmmmm... I don't think so... Thermopylae is the perfect place to put up a defence. I am
very familiar with the topography and morphology of the place. It is the NARROWEST point
on the road to south Greece. There are high mountains on the west side and swamps on the
east side. Only a small ground strip, about 1.000-1.500 meters long, is solid ground
suitable for battle.
I don't know if Leonidas was outflanked or if he actually betraided by efialtes, but one
think is sure. He couldn't choose a better place to defend.
Thermopylae have been the place of two more desperate battles. One in 1822 (if I remember
well) where a Greek guerilla force tryed to stop the advancing Ottoman Army on their way
to Pelloponesous to stop the Greek revolt. The leader of the Greeks was Athanasios Diakos
and he faced a cruel death in the hands of the Turks.
In WW II, Thermopylae was the last stand of Greek and British forces, in mainland Greece,
against the advancing German Army.
Petros Liapis
Georgios Savopulos
Arnold Marquez (amar...@sisna.com) wrote:
: Interesting, because in the _300 Spartans_ movie, Leonidas et al are
: finally put away by repetitive, sun-darkening volleys of arrows as I
: recall (I last saw this movie at least 25 years ago). I seem to
: remember them vainly holding up their shields as the arrows rained
: down, the collective body of soldiers shrinking with each volley, till
: finally the last of them collapsed under the onslaught of projectiles.
: What I remember is the rhythm of the shots, cutting between the
: flights of arrows and the contracting circle of Spartan soldiers.
: I guess the idea is that the Persians and their mercenaries could not
: best the Spartans man-to-man, and had to finally be dealt with at a
: distance.
: Perhaps not historically accurate, but dramatic, no?
This is quite correct as a matter of fact, the only exception being
that Leonidas was already dead when it happened. He had been killed
before the Persian division appeared in the back of his army and the
Spartans were only able to obtain possesion of his body after a fierce
battle where they pushed the Persians away from it several times; when
they noticed the Persian division approaching from behind they retreated
with Leonidas' body to the hill where they could have defended themselves
better in hand to hand combat; the Persians decided not to waste any more
troops in such a battle and used bows and arrows from a safe distance.
These events are described in the Histories of Herodotos.
: Yet cheerfully SIG-less,
: Arnold
Georgios Savopulos
Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: I don't know if Leonidas was outflanked or if he actually betraided by
: efialtes, but one
: think is sure. He couldn't choose a better place to defend.
According to Herodotos it's the second. He was betrayed by Efialtes,
who told Xerxes about a passage through the mountains to the back of
the Greek forces. Leonidas had left 1,000 Phocean troops to guard that
passage but they were not prepared (or determined) to prevent the elite,
10,000 strong, Persian division of the 'immortals' from passing through
it.
: Petros Liapis