Words (again)
Dennis R. Sherman
words, esp. the use of "mundanes" to refer to people that are not
participants in the SCA. We're getting ready for a big demo over
the 4th of July weekend, and part of our discussion included
reminding people not to use "bad" words, "mundane" being one of
them. I haven't been satisfied with any of the possible
substitutes - things like "gentle folk", "kind spectators" and
the like are ok when talking to a large crowd, but feel awfully
contrived when having a 1-1 conversation with someone who is
interested. At a recent event, held in a campground heavily
populated by non-SCA people, one of them suggested they be called
"moderns". At the risk of re-opening an old can of worms, I'd like
to hear opinions on this.
What do you think?
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Chapel Hill, NC
Atlantia d...@uncvx1.bitnet
Joshua Mittleman
Greetings, Good Master Robyyan, from Arval Benicoeur.
Before the discussion here in the Rialto, the problem of the word
"mundane" had never occurred to me overtly. However, I must have
considered the question at some level, because in years of heralding
at demos, I do not remember ever using the word "mundane" without
first giving a thorough explanation. I tend to address the spectators
in aggregate just as I would a crowd of SCAfolk: "Gentle lords and
ladies" or the like. I suppose my feeling is that once they express
enough interest to stop and pay attention to the demo, they ARE gentle
lords and ladies, and should be given the respect so due. If any
spectator at event or demo comes up to me to ask for details, I
consider him immediately to be a possible new member, and treat him
with the same courtesy I would any peer.
Arval.
--
========================================================================
Joshua Mittleman (jos...@paul.rutgers.edu)
Dept of Computer Science, Rutgers University, Piscataway, NJ
Russell Almond
My personal opinion is that "mundane" is a perfect word to refer to
objects but not people. That is phrases like "mundane life," "mundane
jobs," and even "mundane legal regulations" (with a little bit of
explanation) are perfectly fine. The average person probably does not
think of their job, or the legal system as overwhelmingly exciting,
and after many years its become, you know "mundane." So even if those
phrases are applied to them, they will not feel insulted, they will
simply identify it with the parts of their lives which are mundane.
On the other hand, people, even groups of people should not be called
mundane. Phrases like "non SCA folk" or "people not used to our
ways" (for those lovely "freak the mundanes" stories) should be used
instead. I don't like the term "modern" I think it makes us look
weirder than we already are, not something to do at a demo.
Novices should be call "novices" or "newcommers" and not "newbees",
the latter term is pejorative. However, I don't think all terms like
novices, which refer to new members as different and maybe a little
bit less than the old members should be completely avoided. It takes
time for a person to become known in the society and accepted; even if
they could make armor, are an expert on French renessance literature
and do perfect 12th century cross-stitch before they join. Anybody
who will be so completely turned off by being a 2nd class citizen
when they first join, even to the point where being called a novice
will turn them off are probably best left behind at the demo with a
vague feeling that these people are snooty rather than being dragged
to an event to have their opinions confirmed.
Actually, probably the worst part of the word "mundane" in the context
of a demo is that it is jargon. Nothing will turn of a spectator more
than to be barraged with words that he doesn't understand, or which
are used with unfamiliar meanings.
You claim that you are puzzled at what to call individual spectators.
I have always prefered "Milord/Milady." It is unquestionably polite,
and it is strikingly different. It speaks to the themes of courtesy
and romantacism that are strong recurting points of the SCA. And it is
wonderful attention grabber. I tend to use it the most on gawkers and
other people wandering by to spark there interest.
May Allah the Compasionate, the Openner, shine on you demos.
--Mustapha al-Muhaddith
(Russell Almond)
Charles A Anderson
Good people, greetings to all.
Pertaining to the word mundane and it's use or as some would like it, it's
non-use. I was told by someone a while ago that the "official" term was
non-members. Where this official term comes from I do not know.
Dmitri
--
/-Charles-Anderson-\ c...@midgard.mn.org || (backbone)!bungia!midgard!caa
\------------------/ c...@garnet.ssd.cdc.com || (backbone)!shamash!garnet!caa
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(The above quote has been rated as gross, digusting, and tacky by my cow-
orkers at work...are you a cow orker? Would you like to be one? Send $5
and SASEE to me for free (almost) informative (more or less) redundant (very)
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Beth Moursund
use it without even thinking about it, even in non-SCA context (i.e.
SF fandom), to refer to the "real world."
I also belong to a live role-playing group which was started by some
SCA people 5 or 6 years ago. This group tries to use the term
"citizens" instead of "mundanes" to refer to the general public
(i.e. "Hold! Reality! Citizens coming through.")
I do think that a word is needed to refer to "not us," whatever it
may be.
Nils Hammer
I was at a demo at Coopers lake not long ago, where we were using
the term "guest" for people attending the demo. An invitation from a
specific organization, such as a restaurant, will result in SCA folks
being the guests, which I suppose makes the other folks our hosts. If it
is an uncertain situation, I suggest we call them neighbors.
As long as there will be an us-them distinction, lets try to make
it a pleasant one. The guest-host relationship is also one of the most
important period ways of dealing with people. While these terms are good
for the duration of a demo, I see they do not work for general
conversation about mundane affairs, and I still expect to see the word
mundane used in the future.
Nils von den Eichenbergen Nils K. Hammer
B. M. D. L. Pittsburgh PA
East Kingdom nh...@andrew.cmu.edu
Richard Griffith
Unto all Gentles of the Rialto do I send Greetings:
In article <890627120...@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> almond%hus...@HARVARD.HARVARD.EDU (Russell Almond) writes:
>My personal opinion is that "mundane" is a perfect word to refer to
>objects but not people. That is phrases like "mundane life," "mundane
>jobs," and even "mundane legal regulations" (with a little bit of
>explanation) are perfectly fine. The average person probably does not
>think of their job, or the legal system as overwhelmingly exciting,
>and after many years its become, you know "mundane." So even if those
>phrases are applied to them, they will not feel insulted, they will
>simply identify it with the parts of their lives which are mundane.
(much stuff deleted)
> --Mustapha al-Muhaddith
> (Russell Almond)
Great Gods! Has this agument not been met with enough bantering? (obviously
not, since I'm about to throw in my two-pence....:-) :-)
It is my opinion that anyone who's so sensitive to be insulted by
the use of a word so innocuous as "mundane" may not the the sort
of person I'd like to pass a great deal of time with. After all,
what other words would I have to avoid to keep from bruising their
delicate ego? I use "the M word" freely, evn (*sharp intake of
breath*) when talking to "them". Always, though, I follow the first
usage with "that's the phrase we use to refer to those not in the
SCA" This is rendered with :-) or ;-). There are so many instances
of special interest groups here and there, each with their own jargon,
that I have yet to see anyone even "bristle" at that. Most people
understand jargon and readily accept words like "mundane", "newbie", etc.
as just that - jargon, no insult intended. Besides, I'd be willing
to bet that most mundanes visiting a demo are pleased and flattered to
be addressed as "Milord" or "Milady", which is more often the case...
On An-Tir-West -
Yes, I'll be there - I agree with Milady Braidwood, it would indeed
be pleasing to put a face to the names.... :-)
(I, too, will search you out, Milord Laurus)
- Cyrus
--
* Richard E. Griffith, "griff" * Cyrus Hammerhand *
* BiiN, Hillsboro Ore. * Household of the Golden Wolf *
* UUCP: ...[!uunet]!tektronix!biin!griff * Dragons' Mist, An Tir *
**************************************************************************
* "If you don't see the humor in something you take seriously, *
* Then you're not taking it seriously enough!" - Poepping *
* These are MY opinions, if BiiN wanted them, They'd pay for `em! *
COS...@uhvax1.uh.edu
> Some time back we had a long discussion about the connotations of
> words, esp. the use of "mundanes" to refer to people that are not
> participants in the SCA. We're getting ready for a big demo over
/
/ Marcus the Taller of Hamillia here, sire... (in the better late than
never category I'm afraid). Though it has been a few years since I last
was active in the baronny of the StarGate (as called back then) I rather
liked the "mundane" word. It is very precise. It sends out a signal that
you think you are a member of a unique and special group. If the SCA were
an exclusive group this would be bad, but anyone can join, milord. Unless
you protect your "corporate" culture the soul of the SCA will die.
COS...@jane.uh.edu
> mundane. Phrases like "non SCA folk" or "people not used to our
> ways" (for those lovely "freak the mundanes" stories) should be used
> instead. I don't like the term "modern" I think it makes us look
> weirder than we already are, not something to do at a demo.
special, lucky (to have been in it), but wierd? Maybe at an SF con (which
I also enjoy) or at Rocky (in fishies), but not in the SCA.
> Actually, probably the worst part of the word "mundane" in the context
> of a demo is that it is jargon.
> I have always prefered "Milord/Milady."
I agree whole-heartedly with these points. I withdraw my previous comments
in support of "mundane."
-- Marcus the Taller of Hamillia
Stephen McLeod, (Native Texican)| Interests: SF/Gaming, Artist, French,
Samurai Programmer | Computers, the SCA and friendly people!
Vote Spock, The logical choice!| So, whaduya wanna be when you grow up?