Help create better charts
Tim Thornton
by getting sailors to log GPS and depth data - see www.teamsurv.eu for
more information. For example, in Britain the UKHO states that only
50% of Britain's coastal waters are adequately surveyed, and they
concentrate on areas used by commercial shipping. Join TeamSurv and
help update the charts and fill in the gaps.
We are asking for people to get involved by logging data and uploading
it to the web site - as a logger you will be able to see not just your
data, but also that contributed by everyone else in the project.
You can log the data by using either logging software that runs on a
PC, or a small hardware logger that writes the data to a memory stick,
uploading the data through our web site.
The software is a free download from our web site. For the hardware
logger, we have a limited number that we can provide on free loan to
those who go to sea in our trial areas, otherwise you can purchase one
at cost.
Regards,
Tim Thornton
www.teamsurv.eu
Wilbur Hubbard
news:2fd4e52f-3edd-4c3d...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
What an IGNORANT idea. What you're trying to do is make a Wikipedia Charts
system. In other words, something any inept fool can contribute to and make
the entire effort something that can't be relied upon.
Bad idea - an example of stupid liberal thinking. Sailing by a committee of
amateurs and wannabes!
What do you say we also create a medical system research library that is
created by laymen? Would you want your open heart surgery to depend on such
a system?
Go away!
Wilbur Hubbard
John Navas
<4c24a34c$0$65857$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com>, "Wilbur
Hubbard" <wilbur...@thefarm.invallid> wrote:
>"Tim Thornton" <t...@smartcomsoftware.com> wrote in message
>news:2fd4e52f-3edd-4c3d...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>> TeamSurv is a project to help create better charts of coastal waters,
>> by getting sailors to log GPS and depth data - see www.teamsurv.eu for
>> more information. For example, in Britain the UKHO states that only
>> 50% of Britain's coastal waters are adequately surveyed, and they
>> concentrate on areas used by commercial shipping. Join TeamSurv and
>> help update the charts and fill in the gaps.
>>...
>
>What an IGNORANT idea. What you're trying to do is make a Wikipedia Charts
>system. In other words, something any inept fool can contribute to and make
>the entire effort something that can't be relied upon.
>
>Bad idea - an example of stupid liberal thinking. Sailing by a committee of
>amateurs and wannabes!
AMEN!
--
Best regards,
John
"There are three kinds of men.
The one that learns by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
-Will Rogers
George Orwell
Gregory Hall AKA Neal Warren AKA Wilbur Hubbard IS A RAPIST
Designation: Sexual Offender
Name: CECIL WARREN
Status: Released - Required to Register
Department of Corrections #: Not Available
Date of Birth: 03/24/1943
Race : White
Sex: Male
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Blue
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 147 lbs
Binghamton, NY 13905-1829
Broome COUNTY
Current location: Marathon Florida - 66.176.108.112
More details at: http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us:80/offender/flyer.do?personId=35467
Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it
TC
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:38:28 -0400, in
> <4c24a34c$0$65857$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com>, "Wilbur
> Hubbard"<wilbur...@thefarm.invallid> wrote:
>
>> "Tim Thornton"<t...@smartcomsoftware.com> wrote in message
>> news:2fd4e52f-3edd-4c3d...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> TeamSurv is a project to help create better charts of coastal waters,
>>> by getting sailors to log GPS and depth data - see www.teamsurv.eu for
>>> more information. For example, in Britain the UKHO states that only
>>> 50% of Britain's coastal waters are adequately surveyed, and they
>>> concentrate on areas used by commercial shipping. Join TeamSurv and
>>> help update the charts and fill in the gaps.
>>> ...
>>
>> What an IGNORANT idea. What you're trying to do is make a Wikipedia Charts
>> system. In other words, something any inept fool can contribute to and make
>> the entire effort something that can't be relied upon.
>>
>> Bad idea - an example of stupid liberal thinking. Sailing by a committee of
>> amateurs and wannabes!
>
> AMEN!
>
Consider that GPS & Depth Data are both collected together with the time
which should allow pretty accurate results.
As we all know there are places where the bottom changes frequently, I
nearly wrote daily, such as the Swin Spitway and the approach to the
Alde in the Thames Estuary.
Any recent data here would be most useful, particularly for the Alde
where most commercial charts in real terms state nothing more useful
than, "Here be Dragons" in so many words.
For those out of the way places where the, sparse, data for commercial
charts was obtained years ago this has real possibilities surely - The
Walton Backwaters spring to mind here.
I'd want to suck it and see VERY carefully where it say,s there is
plenty of water and no snags but mention of a possible navigational
danger would be potentially a real boon.
Richard
All looks jolly sensible to me
I'm surprised by the ignorance of this group
surely something is better than nothing
By which I mean "teamserve" can't make navigating worse
In fact, looking at how it is to be done, I say Well done Mr Thornton
"Wilbur Hubbard" <wilbur...@thefarm.invallid> wrote in message
news:4c24a34c$0$65857$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Alan Browne
It's so easy to piss on the spark of a good idea and so hard to
participate in a worthwhile venture.
"Crowdsourcing" is used in many ways to improve data collection and
analysis, and if there are waters that are not or just marginally
charted, then letting others do it for their personal satisfaction is
entirely valid.
Indeed a US submarine, a few years ago, was not allowed to use local
charts and was forced by doctrine to use US Navy charts - this resulted
in a bottom collision and serious injuries to several sailors. Had they
used the "locals" charts, they would have avoided that bottom collision.
The local charts were "made" by local fisherman who know the waters
intimately.
(Note: in the pre-1990 Navy this would not likely happen - but the more
recent emphasis on littoral warfare and spec-ops has attack subs working
in shallower waters).
Astronomers rely on networks of amateurs to classify galaxies. There
are not enough professionals for the task and they are highly
appreciative of amateur input.
One may need to pay special attention when using charts developed in
this manner, but then all sailors need to heed the sea's harsh lessons
at all times in any case.
--
gmail originated posts are filtered due to spam.
Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.
news:ke2dnVAVRMgya7XR...@bt.com...
> I'm now a data gatherer
> All looks jolly sensible to me
>
> I'm surprised by the ignorance of this group
> surely something is better than nothing
I guess you never heard, "garbage in - garbage out"?
--
Gregory Hall
John Navas
<ke2dnVAVRMgya7XR...@bt.com>, "Richard"
<richard...@btopenzone.com> wrote:
>I'm now a data gatherer
>All looks jolly sensible to me
>
>I'm surprised by the ignorance of this group
>surely something is better than nothing
Bad information is often worse than no information.
>By which I mean "teamserve" can't make navigating worse
Of course it can, by misleading you into going the wrong way.
>In fact, looking at how it is to be done, I say Well done Mr Thornton
Remind me never to put any trust in you at sea.
--
Best regards,
John
Navas' Sailing and Racing in the San Francisco Bay Area
http://sail.navas.us
Ed M.
*.xxx sites and marketers than by the occasional spilling of vitriol.
Sage advice from a rodent:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034492/quotes?qt0455230
Mrs. Rabbit: Thumper!
Thumper: Yes, mama?
Mrs. Rabbit: What did your father tell you this morning?
Thumper: [clears throat] If you can't say something nice... don't say
nothing at all.
Alan Browne
Which is why your input, in particular, is ignored.
Martin
> On 10-06-28 15:26 , Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
>> "Richard"<richard...@btopenzone.com> wrote in message
>> news:ke2dnVAVRMgya7XR...@bt.com...
>>> I'm now a data gatherer
>>> All looks jolly sensible to me
>>>
>>> I'm surprised by the ignorance of this group
>>> surely something is better than nothing
>>
>>
>> I guess you never heard, "garbage in - garbage out"?
>
> Which is why your input, in particular, is ignored.
Funny way of ignoring him.
In this case he is right.
Terje Mathisen
> It's so easy to piss on the spark of a good idea and so hard to
> participate in a worthwhile venture.
Indeed.
>
> "Crowdsourcing" is used in many ways to improve data collection and
> analysis, and if there are waters that are not or just marginally
> charted, then letting others do it for their personal satisfaction is
> entirely valid.
[snip]
> Astronomers rely on networks of amateurs to classify galaxies. There are
> not enough professionals for the task and they are highly appreciative
> of amateur input.
>
> One may need to pay special attention when using charts developed in
> this manner, but then all sailors need to heed the sea's harsh lessons
> at all times in any case.
The easy way to handle this is simply to use statistical methods, i.e.
when the same area has been mapped by multiple people independently, the
resulting (hopefully!) consensus should lead to both more reliable
mapping and a measure of the quality of the individual mappers.
(Yes, I know that you could in theory generate multiple identities and
supply randomly perturbed versions of the same bogus data, but it will
always be hard to guard against sabotage.)
Here in Scandinavia where we have an extremely fractal shoreline, there
are many, many examples of privately funded buoys and markers.
The most well-known is probably on an infamous underwater rock in the
middle of the fastest path to the Långedrag guest harbor: It resulted in
so many groundings each year that private sponsors paid for a marker to
be put down on it. This marker isn't shown on the official maps, but it
is still very useful.
Terje
--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
John Navas
<FfSdnWOhr9KHlLTR...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>On 10-06-28 15:26 , Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
>> "Richard"<richard...@btopenzone.com> wrote in message
>> news:ke2dnVAVRMgya7XR...@bt.com...
>>> I'm now a data gatherer
>>> All looks jolly sensible to me
>>>
>>> I'm surprised by the ignorance of this group
>>> surely something is better than nothing
>>
>> I guess you never heard, "garbage in - garbage out"?
>
>Which is why your input, in particular, is ignored.
'Those who have evidence will present their evidence,
whereas those who do not have evidence will attack the man.'
TC
Alan Browne
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> It's so easy to piss on the spark of a good idea and so hard to
>> participate in a worthwhile venture.
>
> Indeed.
>>
>> "Crowdsourcing" is used in many ways to improve data collection and
>> analysis, and if there are waters that are not or just marginally
>> charted, then letting others do it for their personal satisfaction is
>> entirely valid.
> [snip]
>> Astronomers rely on networks of amateurs to classify galaxies. There are
>> not enough professionals for the task and they are highly appreciative
>> of amateur input.
>>
>> One may need to pay special attention when using charts developed in
>> this manner, but then all sailors need to heed the sea's harsh lessons
>> at all times in any case.
>
> The easy way to handle this is simply to use statistical methods, i.e.
> when the same area has been mapped by multiple people independently, the
> resulting (hopefully!) consensus should lead to both more reliable
> mapping and a measure of the quality of the individual mappers.
I agree, on the other hand I suspect a lot of areas won't get but a
single pass. On the other, other hand, these are less likely to be spoofed.
> (Yes, I know that you could in theory generate multiple identities and
> supply randomly perturbed versions of the same bogus data, but it will
> always be hard to guard against sabotage.)
>
> Here in Scandinavia where we have an extremely fractal shoreline, there
> are many, many examples of privately funded buoys and markers.
>
> The most well-known is probably on an infamous underwater rock in the
> middle of the fastest path to the Långedrag guest harbor: It resulted in
> so many groundings each year that private sponsors paid for a marker to
> be put down on it. This marker isn't shown on the official maps, but it
> is still very useful.
Such examples abound worldwide, and without them there would be even
more groundings. Recently, in the Caribean, I noticed a lot of floats
of local design (eg: a yellow juice bottle) floating in areas and all
small craft would hew within meters of it coming in or going out over a
reef. I asked, the water right under one of them was only 2.5 metres,
but could be as shallow as 75cm within 10 meters either side.
Anyway, to hell with the naysayers. People concerned with safe
navigation far outnumber those who would spoof the data.
John Navas
<5ICdnd7ZrutZ07TR...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
The problem with that annecdote is that so many groundings have occurred
in the Virgin Islands from private marks and sketches that charter
companies specifically warn you not to trust them, to only rely on
government marks and charts. To go against that advice is to risk not
only safety but liability for the consequences.
>Anyway, to hell with the naysayers. People concerned with safe
>navigation far outnumber those who would spoof the data.
The problem with that theory is that "it only takes one bad apple to
spoil the barrel".
Alan Murphy
<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>.........snipped
>It's so easy to piss on the spark of a good idea and so hard to
>participate in a worthwhile venture.
>
>"Crowdsourcing" is used in many ways to improve data collection and
>analysis, and if there are waters that are not or just marginally
>charted, then letting others do it for their personal satisfaction is
>entirely valid.
>
>Indeed a US submarine, a few years ago, was not allowed to use local
>charts and was forced by doctrine to use US Navy charts - this resulted
>in a bottom collision and serious injuries to several sailors. Had they
>used the "locals" charts, they would have avoided that bottom collision.
> The local charts were "made" by local fisherman who know the waters
>intimately.
>
>(Note: in the pre-1990 Navy this would not likely happen - but the more
>recent emphasis on littoral warfare and spec-ops has attack subs working
>in shallower waters).
>
>Astronomers rely on networks of amateurs to classify galaxies. There
>are not enough professionals for the task and they are highly
>appreciative of amateur input.
>
>One may need to pay special attention when using charts developed in
>this manner, but then all sailors need to heed the sea's harsh lessons
>at all times in any case.
Well said. For another example of when the British Navy (and Army)
used amateur charts as opposed to Hydrographic Department ones please
see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewen_Southby-Tailyour
Here it says :
Falkland Islands
In 1978, he was the officer commanding a small Royal Marines
detachment that was posted to the Falkland Islands. It was then that
on his own initiative he sailed around and extensively charted the
waters around the islands, and had a 100+ page notebook filled with
data on harbors, inlets, landing spots, etc. It is still to this day
the most comprehensive sailing guide for the area. Despite the then
Chief Hydrographer of the Royal Navy stating at the time that
Southby-Tailyour's work was the "Amateur jottings of an itinerent
yachtsman and of no value to this department" this work and his
personal knowledge of the area would later prove highly valuable in
the Falklands War. In 1982 he was voted the United Kingdom's Yachtsman
of the Year.
See the next paragraph in Wikipedia as well.
I can also think of many pilot books which contain plenty of amateur
sourced information.
Alan Murphy
John Navas
<de4j261brs74r4p25...@4ax.com>, Alan Murphy
<gpsu....@website.see> wrote:
>See the next paragraph in Wikipedia as well.
Now there's a reliable source. ;)
>I can also think of many pilot books which contain plenty of amateur
>sourced information.
Some of which is dreadful/dangerous. (I know that from direct
experience.) And that's the problem.
Tim Thornton
wrote:
> On 10-06-25 8:38 , Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Tim Thornton"<t...@smartcomsoftware.com> wrote in message
> >news:2fd4e52f-3edd-4c3d...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Also, its interesting to note that the idea of "offical" charts is a
relatively recent one. The UK government didn't start publishing
charts until the early 1800's, with the USA about 50 years behind us,
and it took quite a while for ships to change over from privately
published to government published charts. The IHO wasn't formed until
the 1920's, and their remit is squarely aimed at charts for SOLAS
vessels, i.e. large commercial ships..
Tim
Tim Thornton
Hi Terje,
We can use statistical methods once we achieve a high enough density
of data in an area. Beofre that, we have to treat points individually,
and just model the error on those points.
Tim
Tim Thornton
>
> <gpsu.co...@website.see> wrote:
> >See the next paragraph in Wikipedia as well.
>
> Now there's a reliable source. ;)
>
> >I can also think of many pilot books which contain plenty of amateur
> >sourced information.
>
> Some of which is dreadful/dangerous. (I know that from direct
> experience.) And that's the problem.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> John
>
> Navas' Sailing and Racing in the San Francisco Bay Areahttp://sail.navas.us
The Wikipedia entry is correct. His pilot book for the Falklands had
been printed and was being shipped out to the bookshops, when it had
to be recalled.
Tim