How to exceed hull speed
Popeye
water cruiser is so fast, in fact it regularly exceeds hull speed. As
you know I've modified the keel shape to conform with a highly
efficient NACA airfoil but that alone does not make it a great sailing
vessel. This was the big trick:
http://www.hheadproducts.com/seaslide.htm
Yes, take it from me, a highly experienced blue water cruiser you'll
pick up a knot or three from this product. Oh and yes for you lubber
lurker wannabes out there the product is applied below the waterline.
Don't drown while putting it on! Or better yet pull your boat and then
put it on. PUTZES!
Popeye the transoceanic blue water cruiser sailing man
SAIL LOCO
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport
katy
Your posts are like reruns on the tv.....heard once, it's best to turn them off
the second time around....
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
Capt. Mooron
1st of all... most boats can exceed their calculated hull speed. even
displacement vessels. A boat can push water... it's just that the effort is
exponential from hull speed on up.
2nd... only a Dolt would consider the application of a friction reducer as a
"highly modified" change.
3rd.... addition of a friction reducer would never increase the speed of
your vessel more than knowing how to sail it properly... something you have
enlightened the group that you are incapable of... and thus are reduced to
spending vast amounts of time and money in keel configurations and coatings
to overcome your inherent inability to use a vessel to it's full potential.
I call you a lame putz! a newbie and of course an idiot! ;-)
--
Capt. Mooron
S.V. Overproof
"Treat your Crew with Disdain.... and other Vessels with Distaste"
"Popeye" <capt_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f034e294.01110...@posting.google.com...
Capt. Bob
of water?!
"Racers have known that hydrophobic coatings can actually produce greater
drag in spite of their smoothness."
Just slipping past,
Bob
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Sailing parallels life: It is neither the origin nor the destination that is
important, but rather the journey.
________________________
www.AdventuresInSailing.com
Capt...@AdventuresInSailing.com
Per Elmsäter
cannot change the size of the bowwave you make. All you can do is make it
easier to reach your hullspeed. The so called hullspeed remains the same for
your boat until you rebuild it. There is also nothing says you cannot exceed
your hullspeed, only that you will need exceedingly more power for each knot
above it. The term hullspeed also is not something very exact. It is just a
ways to get a general idea of the most likely top speed you'll see on your
boat.
So congratulations for finally being able to attain your hullspeed.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"Don't take yourself so seriously.
Life and the sea will take care of that, if given a chance."
Respectfully Perre
--------------------------------------------------------
"Popeye" <capt_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f034e294.01110...@posting.google.com...
Michael Schoonertrash
However when you read something really stupid you know the thread its from
'the girl the coast guard denied' so you can just lose the thing entirely.
______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net
Popeye
You can do better than that. The cause of the bow wave is friction and
by reducing the friction, the bow wave is reduce and the hull speed is
increased. Surely you must know that the use of surfactants increases
hull speed and is outlawed in racing. That's why my transoceanic blue
water cruiser is outlawed from all races! It's just so superior!
Capt Popeye the true blue water sailor man
"Per Elms?er" <per.el...@emersonenergy.com> wrote in message news:<9s655u$p86$1...@newstoo.ericsson.se>...
The_navigator©
speed friction is not (for smooth surfaces) the major power loss. Friction
is most important at v<<sqrt(L) and v>>sqrt(L).
Cheers MC
PS Didn't Neal talk about modified NACA keels but then did not know the
number of the foil.....
The_navigator©
the hull to move forward). Where do you get these ideas -from Jackass?
Cheers MC
Douglas King
> The bow wave is due to the fact that the boat has displacement (hence the water has to be moved aside to allow
> the hull to move forward). Where do you get these ideas -from Jackass?
Hey, this popeye character has learned from one of the greats!
>
> Popeye wrote:
> > ......The cause of the bow wave is friction
Wrong
> > by reducing the friction, the bow wave is reduce and the hull speed is
> > increased.
Nope.
> > ....Surely you must know that the use of surfactants increases
> > hull speed
Still wrong
> >... and is outlawed in racing.
That much is right, sort of.
> > ... That's why my transoceanic blue
> > water cruiser is outlawed from all races! It's just so superior!
I thought you were outlawed from racing because you kept leaving a greasy ring around the course?
DSK
Per Elmsäter
not friction. However if you do have to much friction on your boat you'll
never even reach your theoretical hullspeed.
However I did not know that you weren't allowed to polish your bottom if
you're racing. Tell us more about that. On the contrary I've heard that the
real hardcores polish the boat with newspapers. Something about the graffiti
or whatever it's called they are printed with.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"Don't take yourself so seriously.
Life and the sea will take care of that, if given a chance."
Respectfully Perre
--------------------------------------------------------
"The_navigator©" <farr...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3BE6F825...@excite.com...
katy
drag in spite of their smoothness."
How do you get all those mad dogs to drool all over the bottom of your boat
though?
Douglas King
> Yes even I know what MC is saying here. Bow wave is due to deplacement and
> not friction. However if you do have to much friction on your boat you'll
> never even reach your theoretical hullspeed.
Right. Like for example, too many barnacles.....
>
> However I did not know that you weren't allowed to polish your bottom if
> you're racing. Tell us more about that. On the contrary I've heard that the
> real hardcores polish the boat with newspapers. Something about the graffiti
> or whatever it's called they are printed with.
You are indeed allowed to polish your bottom, or your boat's bottom, depending
on personal preference. However you are only allowed to polish the crews bottom
under certain conditions....
What is forbidden is to use any sort of chemical in the water. You can paint
your boat with any sort of fancy low-friction surface you want. I have tried it
myself, I'm unconviced it helps any more than wetsanding. However you cannot
pour chemicals into the water ahead of the boat, or build in some sort of tank
system to pump it out from the hull, with intention of reducing surface
friction. It would only help in light air anyway.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
HLAviation
>you're racing. Tell us more about that. On the contrary I've heard that the
>real hardcores polish the boat with newspapers. Something about the graffiti
>or whatever it's called they are printed with.
>
Actually, it depends on the speeds you're racing at. At sailboat speeds there
is a school of thought that puts forth that a slightly rough hull (they use a
"prismatic coating") produces a boudary layer reducing drag. You can find some
information on it at NASA's website I think.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Per Elmsäter
news:20011105182558...@mb-fs.aol.com...
Are you talking about trying to make the hull surface look like a fish skin?
I've read a few articles on that but still never heard of anybody
implementing it for real.
HLAviation
>I've read a few articles on that but still never heard of anybody
>implementing it for real.
>--
The SDYC Americas cup boat the race after the cat vs. the monolith race had it
on the bottom of at least one of their boats.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Capt. Bob
drool all over the bottom of your boat
down. But how do you keep it from falling over? Glad you asked! Simply
insert the mast into a properly prepared hole and, voila! You'll also be
able to turn the boat in order to get that uniform finish.
Coating the ng w/bs,
claude
Now if the regulars would just delete original posts when replying, life
would be good.
claude
"Michael Schoonertrash" <sef...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<3be6b...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com>:
>The problem with KF it doesn't filter subject material when other
>repost. However when you read something really stupid you know the
>thread its from 'the girl the coast guard denied' so you can just lose
>the thing entirely.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>_____ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION =
>http://www.binaries.net
Popeye
ha ah ha haa aha ah ha ha ha!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Popeye~~~~~~~~~~~~~the~~~~~~~sailor~~~~~~man
Martin Baxter
So, your point would be? No one is denying that
such technology exists, just it's practicality with
respect to sailing vessels.
Remember that these large vessels are operating well
below "hull speed", hull speed for a one-thousand footer
is about 42 knots. There is no claim that this technology
is going to suddenly allow your average super tanker to
plane!
Now if you only operate in extremely light air and are
willing to run some kind of auxiliary motor to produce
the compressed air for this system you will no doubt
sail slightly faster than the guy beside in a similar boat
sans the fancy stuff, the rules committee will however,
disqualify you.
Now, just WTF were you laughing about?
Cheers
Marty
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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Capt. Mooron
It attempted to deny me the abort print option. I would not reccomend anyone
going to a page submitted by Popeye... they usually contain covert
communictions with your machine.
--
Capt. Mooron
S.V. Overproof
"Treat your Crew with Disdain.... and other Vessels with Distaste"
Martin Baxter
> Your link forced a page print... or tried to....
Didn't do anything to my machine, perhaps it
was some anomaly with your system?
jlrogers
Per Elmsäter
article in peace and quiet. It was a simple html page like anyone else.
Straighten up Moron. Or learn to use your computer.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"Don't take yourself so seriously.
Life and the sea will take care of that, if given a chance."
Respectfully Perre
--------------------------------------------------------
"jlrogers" <ar...@fartsy.com> wrote in message
news:v7WF7.181$sy4.14...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Scott Vernon
;)
Katy Elmsäter wrote ...
The_navigator©
Cheers MC
Per Elmsäter
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"Don't take yourself so seriously.
Life and the sea will take care of that, if given a chance."
Respectfully Perre
--------------------------------------------------------
"The_navigator©" <farr...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3BE8B645...@excite.com...
The_navigator©
explanation and if you knew anything about cargo ships you would know
they operate at v<<(sqrt L).
Ignorance is based on an inability to LEARN Popeye.
Cheers MC
HLAviation
>explanation and if you knew anything about cargo ships you would know
>they operate at v<<(sqrt L).
Thats not quite true. For example, a container ship (generally the fastest in
the shipping industry) with a waterline of 900' has a hullspeed of a bit over
40 knots. They generally have a sea speed (which is WOT with just a hair of
rack float) of around 35 kts because that is all the power they have. They are
designed that way because 1.18 is the most fuel efficient speed. Most Tankers
also work at 1.18. The SL 7s (RoRos) operate at 1.34 since they burn fuel on
the taxpayers dime. Neither Sea Land nor Crowley could operate them at a
profit so now MSC has them. The only cargo vessels you find working slower
than 1.18 are old coasters and tramp boats, and of course oilfield boats
because the owners are too cheap to buy big enough engines.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
The_navigator©
lowest speed. They never go over half hull speed because (1) The sagging stress on
the hull is serious (2) the loss of waterplane area leads to a loss of metacentric
height. The only large ships that ever go at the speeds you suggest are military
(such as fast destroyers) and their tenderness at flank speed is well known and
fuel consumption over short sprints is not an issue. Incidentally, the propellor is
a major power loss also and the propellor is always designed for cruise speed not
flank speed.
Some real standard naval architecture:
The starting design point for a cargo ships maximum speed is v/sqrt(l) = 0.7 or 20
knots for the ship you refer to.
Cheers MC
Popeye
> Ignorance is based on an inability to LEARN Popeye.
>
upon POOR TEACHING?
Popeye
The_navigator©
Cheers MC
Douglas King
> >explanation and if you knew anything about cargo ships you would know
> >they operate at v<<(sqrt L).
>
>
> Thats not quite true. For example, a container ship (generally the fastest in
> the shipping industry) with a waterline of 900' has a hullspeed of a bit over
> 40 knots.
Right.
> They generally have a sea speed (which is WOT with just a hair of
> rack float) of around 35 kts because that is all the power they have.
Hmm... I've been out of that game for a few years, but I did't ever hear of any
commercial ships with a sea speed of 30+ knots.
> They are
> designed that way because 1.18 is the most fuel efficient speed.
Generally slower is more fuel efficient, even for planing hulls.
> Most Tankers
> also work at 1.18. The SL 7s (RoRos) operate at 1.34 since they burn fuel on
> the taxpayers dime. Neither Sea Land nor Crowley could operate them at a
> profit so now MSC has them.
Agreed again, the MSC ships are faster than cargo-for-profit carriers.
> The only cargo vessels you find working slower
> than 1.18 are old coasters and tramp boats, and of course oilfield boats
> because the owners are too cheap to buy big enough engines.
Don't know about oil field boats, JSB you out there?
I did some work on a few high speed ferries, generally they go a good bit faster
but over shorter runs and on a tight schedule; often in a tideway. In a case like
that the higher fuel and maintenance costs are necessary to be in the business in
the first place, nobody would pay to take a slow ferry. Same reason nobody will pay
to take an ocean liner when they can go by airplane.
DSK
Popeye
Navy ships they have are used as celebrity and fashion barges in the
harbor.
The_navigator© <farr...@excite.com> wrote in message news:<3BE9E604...@excite.com>...
> 35 knots? Try 20. The fact is that the most fuel efficient speed is always the
> lowest speed. They never go over half hull speed because (1) The sagging stress on
> the hull is serious
If the sagging stress is serious how can they handle rough water? If
they sag then the metacenter varies in position along axial sections.
Poor design or poor loading?
(2) the loss of waterplane area leads to a loss of metacentric
> height. The only large ships that ever go at the speeds you suggest are military
> (such as fast destroyers) and their tenderness at flank speed is well known and
> fuel consumption over short sprints is not an issue.
Metacentric height is a result of static forces. It does not include
dynamic forces such as water pressure on the hull from moving. Poor
analogy. 35 knots is very fast. Arliegh Burke destroyers (550 feet in
length) and carriers (1100 feet in length) achieve this speed near top
end. Not all large naval ships are tender at this speed - why?
Incidentally, the propellor is
> a major power loss also and the propellor is always designed for cruise speed not
> flank speed.
Adjustable pitch propeller?
The_navigator©
to out perform the USA because our SAS has already been deployed in Afghanistan and we are also
keeping the peace in East Timor against the hordes of Indonesians.
Not bad for a country of only 3,000,000 (or so) eh?
Rough water? How many waves have a wavelength longer than the 900' container ship? But it is
well known that such ships can roll very badly in big seas. This is partly due to a loss in
metacentric height as she starts to span wave crests. (Perhaps you do not understand what I'm
talking about?).
You are wrong, the metacentric height can altered by high speed (when the boat starts to be
supported only at the ends) and is clearly demonstrable! This IS the explanation for the
tenderness of destroyers etc. at speed and partly explains the tender behavior of surfing sail
boats.
How many large ships have variable pitch propellors?
Cheers MC
HLAviation
>
Nearly all of them
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
katy
I thought Greenpeace was NZ's navy....
Michael Schoonertrash
http://www.defence.govt.nz/
http://www.army.mil.nz/nzarmy/intro.asp
http://www.airforce.mil.nz/
Just to name a few.
katy <katy...@aol.combingbox> wrote in message
news:20011108233243...@mb-mj.aol.com...
______________________________________________________________________________
Popeye
> We do indeed celebrate our few ships and fighting men which vessel for vessel, man for man seem
> to out perform the USA because our SAS has already been deployed in Afghanistan and we are also
> keeping the peace in East Timor against the hordes of Indonesians.
> Not bad for a country of only 3,000,000 (or so) eh?
Not bad at all. So how do you get overwhelming force out of a small
non nuclear nation?
>
> Rough water? How many waves have a wavelength longer than the 900' container ship? But it is
> well known that such ships can roll very badly in big seas. This is partly due to a loss in
> metacentric height as she starts to span wave crests. (Perhaps you do not understand what I'm
> talking about?).
Even with wave crests, the hull has to displace the same amount of
water. If the boat's hull is box shape (a cargo ships somewhat are)
the metacenter does not change. If the hull leans the metacenter
moves.
>
> You are wrong, the metacentric height can altered by high speed (when the boat starts to be
> supported only at the ends) and is clearly demonstrable!
That's what I said too. The "average" metacenter (like the center of
gravity) stays about the same, but the distributed metacenter changes.
This IS the explanation for the
> tenderness of destroyers etc.
Destroyers are not necessarily tender. Remember some have fin
stabilizers and large sonar domes in the bow. What is tender anyway?
They roll over? Are you looking at the stability curves of a Gearing
class?
at speed and partly explains the tender behavior of surfing sail
> boats.
>
> How many large ships have variable pitch propellors?
Which ones don't?
Michael Schoonertrash
here or there so I changed it from the original hull speed subject line.
For example when you are out there doing 4 or 6 or 10 knots or whatever who
do you rely on when you find yourself sailing in the infamous 'dire
straits'? The NZ military rescue people cover half way to Australia, all
the way to the Antarctic, over to French Polynesia and up North to areas
including Tonga, Fiji, and Samoa (country of). An area larger than the
continental US or continent of Australia. I'm interested in who is really
there when the chips are down, the liferaft deployed and the EPIRB is
a-beepin' away in all parts of the world. How well do they accomplish the
mission? What area is covered? What is the responsibility of the boat
crew?
Comment?
Michael Schoonertrash
The_navigator©
such that I would not thought that a variable pitch prop was viable. Most of the time is spent at
cruise speed after all..
Cheers MC
The_navigator©
no commercial vessel is near. Usually a commercial vessel is within 24 hours of
your position so the navy (which would be up to 3 days away) is not needed...
Cheers MC
HLAviation
>complexity of large props is
>such that I would not thought that a variable pitch prop was viable. Most of
>the time is spent at
>cruise speed after all..
>
Most large ships including cruise ships (excluding those using electric drive
azipods and those are a problem too) use unclutched ungeared low speed deisel
engines straight shafted to CP props. They use prop pitch to control speed and
direction. This technology started with large props. One of the boats I run
has 6 CP props, the 2 mains, the 2 bow thrusters and the 2 stern thrusters.
When in Dynamic Positioning mode, the engines are all running at med to high
RPM (depends on the weather conditions) and the computer controls the pitch of
all the props to maintain the vessels position.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Scott Vernon
I could see her prop. Looked like an ordinary (not VP) blade to me.
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa. _/)__/)__/)_
Popeye wrote
edgar cove
<hlavi...@aol.com> writes
> One of the boats I run
>has 6 CP props, the 2 mains, the 2 bow thrusters and the 2 stern thrusters.
>When in Dynamic Positioning mode, the engines are all running at med to high
>RPM (depends on the weather conditions) and the computer controls the pitch of
>all the props to maintain the vessels position.
>http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
That is no ordinary ship, HL. You are talking about a specialised vessel
that has to maintain a static position over an oil well or possibly over
a vessel that is being salvaged
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
HLAviation
expensive to run at any scale. The lack of clutches and shiftable gear boxes
(in smaller vessels with higher speed engines requiring gear reduction, large
ships require no gear box at all and bolt the shaft flange direct to the
flywheel) pretty much pays for the difference in price, and then over the life
of the ship, the increased efficiency of the CP prop makes it come out ahead.
The only thing you have to watch with the CP props is your air supply. If you
lose air to the prop controller, you go to full reverse, kind of a bitch when
backed up to a platform or into a slip. On the DP end you have to watchout
that the computer doesn't spike out as it can drive you right into whatever
you're near also. When DP first came around, you really had to watch yourself
(normally it worked off of radio triangulation on the rig) sometimes the crane
would swing and mess up a signal and you had to take over manually, quick. Now
theres normally a 3 or 4 system cross check. Still gotta keep a close eye on
it though.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Gilligan
I'm very impressed. What you do is very manly - Gilligan approved!
Gilligan
hlavi...@aol.com (HLAviation) wrote in message news:<20011109010122...@mb-da.aol.com>...
The_navigator©
the governor and direction by reversing the engine. I know of NO cruise liner with
a variable pitch prop. can you give any reference?
Cheers MC
line lepage
lol
just joke
stef
HLAviation
Royal Viking for one, Viking Serenade for another. You must hang around some
old crap ships, most everything in the last decade uses CP props or
Azipods(very few, they are problematic) or some other diesel electric.
Here, read this:
http://www.ship-technology.com/contractors/propulsion/propellers.html
The_navigator©
it would say -that variable pitch props are not used so often because most ships
run most of the time at one speed?
Can't you do better than that?
http://www3.cnco.com.hk/fleet/fleet_erradale.html
http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/nedlloyd_tasman/index.html
are examples of big ships -guess what fixed props! The EPA also says that fixed
pitch props are most common on marine engines also. Variable pitch props are much
more complicated and introduce more possibilities for failure. As I said before,
common sense tells you that since most cargo ships spend most of their time at
cruise speed what is the advantage of a variable pitch prop anyway?
Cheers MC
Popeye
(2) the loss of waterplane area leads to a loss of metacentric
> height.
>
Loss of waterplane area = lowered center of bouyancy
Metacentric radius is reduced. You are correct for must hull forms.
Popeye