National Defense System Won't Work - Molly Ivins
N9NWO
work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
Then everyone would have some experience with the
military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
about the military, she has never served. We who have
served are superior to liberals like herself.
John Fischer <jr4...@core.com> wrote in message news:9098.9e8f.c8@dell...
: Dear Fellow Freedom Fighters,
:
: I read this op/ed Saturday morning and thought that you might be
: interested.
:
: I Don't Know If a National Missile Defense System Will Work
:
: By Molly Ivins
:
: AUSTIN --- Back-to-back speeches by the Veeper and the only president
: we've got beggar the imagination. Let's have a new rule: If you
: pronounce the word "nukular," you shouldn't go around nullifying nuclear
: treaties. Or building nuclear power plants.
:
: When in the course of human events a treaty becomes outdated, the smart
: country does not announce it is breaking the treaty. This is
: unpleasantly reminiscent of numerous chapters involving Native
: Americans. Instead, the smart country calls upon its dear ally (provided
: they're still speaking) to renegotiate the treaty. This has a less
: threatening effect on the ally.
:
: I don't know if a National Missile Defense (news - web sites) system
: will work, and neither do you. Most experts not employed by the defense
: industry are dubious about it at best, but you never know how far we
: could get if we spend enough time and money on it. If we spend the first
: $60 billion, we'll probably be a lot further along than we are now, thus
: justifying the next $60 billion.
:
: The problem is, it's massively stupid in terms of national security.
: What's a bigger threat to the United States: North Korea (news - web
: sites) or global warming? Our children will live to see the answer to
: that. It's their future we're playing with.
:
: Protest Bush with these NEW products from WhatPresident.com:
: http://www.whatpresident.com
:
: I have also added 28 new Anti-Bush Stickers, please visit
: http://www.whatpresident.com to see them.
:
: FREE SHIPPING CODE= "notbush"
:
: Read more of the above op/ed:
: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ipmi/20010503/cm/i_don_t_know_if_a_national
: _missile_defense_system_will_work_1.html
:
: (c) 2001 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.
:
:
:
: "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to
: continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too
: expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will
: pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the
: way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre." -
: Frank Zappa, 1977
:
billh
"N9NWO"
> We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> Then everyone would have some experience with the
> military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> about the military, she has never served. We who have
> served are superior to liberals like herself.
Molly Irvins most certainly does have a right to an opinion and a right to
express it. To say otherwise is tyrannical.
What she doesn't have a right to is an audience or a right to others'
agreement. That she must earn.
Steven Litvintchouk
>
> We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> Then everyone would have some experience with the
> military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> about the military, she has never served. We who have
> served are superior to liberals like herself.
Those of us old-timers who have worked in the defense industry, know
what you're saying, but it's not talked about very much.
When we had the draft, the defense industry could hire its choice of the
"best and the brightest" college graduates. Because working in the
defense industry was a good way to get a draft deferment. As writer
Robert Heinlein put it, "Get a job with some missile firm. Get married
and get her pregnant." On top of that, many engineers had prior
military experience, because they had served in previous wars. They
brought their knowledge of actual combat with them to the job of
designing new weapons systems.
In more recent decades, with the personal-computer high-tech revolution,
the defense industry has had trouble attracting and retaining qualified
engineers. Today's brightest engineers want to work in the high-tech
sector.
After the collapse of the "dot.coms" last year, the defense industry has
been able to hire some of their engineers back.
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdli...@earthlink.net
"I guess I could have paid a little closer attention when I was in
English class, but it all worked out OK. I'm gainfully employed."
-- President George W. Bush
hamilton
<williamhu...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
his point is however a good one -- one of the big problems with our
current military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch of bellicose
country club bullies whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
movies -- my they do love to strut and talk about 'throw weights' and
'footprints' blah blah blah
when many men served in the military through the draft we had a large
population of citizens who could inform their fellow citizens that the
notion of military competence and efficiency was hooey -- now we have
these nimrods who worship the military having never viewed it up close
running things and gullible citizens who believe what they say.
and of course many of those experienced citizens were liberals as well as
conservatives
and of course Molly Ivins has actually done some research on the subject
and is fairly knowledgeable compared to the general run of couch potatoes
in the population so her attempts to inform are at least a step in the
right direction
the military is not less competent than other organizations generally
speaking -- but it is certainly not more competent. people who have served
know that and have a healthy skepticism. nothing more dangerous than a
'professional military' manned by people who share a common ideology and a
population with too little experience to question what they assert or
demand.
billh
"hamilton"
billh
"hamilton"
> > > We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> > > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> > > Then everyone would have some experience with the
> > > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> > > about the military, she has never served. We who have
> > > served are superior to liberals like herself.
> >
> > Molly Irvins most certainly does have a right to an opinion and a right
to
> > express it. To say otherwise is tyrannical.
> >
> > What she doesn't have a right to is an audience or a right to others'
> > agreement. That she must earn.
>
> his point is however a good one -- one of the big problems with our
> current military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch of bellicose
> country club bullies whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
> movies
His point isn't about "military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch
of bellicose country club bullies", but about "a problem with experts who do
N9NWO
Many of the non defense "experts" are like the academics
within the Kennedy/LBJ era who ran the Vietnam War.
Ever remember Vietnam being called the "professors war"?
Now we have the yuppies with their masters degrees and the
academic liberals both telling the rest of us how to fight wars
and run our lives. But neither group willing to do their fair share
and serve in the military. They see themselves as "too valuable".
hamilton
<williamhu...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
well yeah -- but my point was also a good one. And when he critized Ivins
he took his message in a new direction.
hamilton
<n9...@amsat.org> wrote:
and today we are being run by the Chicken Hawks -- who when it was their
turn to serve supported war but deigned to serve -- I respect those who
opposed the war and those who answered their call and fought it [including
those who are in both categories] I have no respect for the Cheneys,
Bushes, Limbaughs etc who love war but think they have better things to do
than the hoi polloi who should actually do the heavy lifting.
N9NWO
And Molly Irvins is an anti military type. We can do without
her opinions. Or yours.
We should done Kent State far sooner. And more frequently.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
never served, I guess that leaves out your Zero Hero Rush Limbaugh, eh?
SCREW YOU and your idiot police state mentality.
Your problem is that you realize what a fucking loser you are.
N9NWO
There are few democrats that I trust. Ex-senator Kerrey being one
of the few. While I do not like the fact that too many neo-conservatives
did not serve, at least they saw the light and now support us. And there
are far more republicans with military service, even in congress, than there
are democrats. Ever since the end of the draft, the military has increasing
become more conservative and skewed to the religious right. The left just
stopped serving. So did the moderates like the yuppies. With draw down
under Clinton, most liberals were forced out of the military which is now
heavily skewed to the right, especially in the senior NCO (sergeant for you
non military types) and officer ranks.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
rednecks?
We could turn the military and police into a new gestapo!
Maybe you could get some respect for your stupid fucking right
wing political mentality then?
N9NWO
: never served, I guess that leaves out your Zero Hero Rush Limbaugh, eh?
At least Rush is pro military. Molly Irvins is not.
That is why so many in the military love Rush.
: SCREW YOU and your idiot police state mentality.
:
: Your problem is that you realize what a fucking loser you are.
Still pointing fingers at yourself? What have you ever
done?
: > We would not have a problem with experts who do not
: > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
: > Then everyone would have some experience with the
: > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
: > about the military, she has never served. We who have
: > served are superior to liberals like herself.
: >
: > : Dear Fellow Freedom Fighters,
: > :
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
set well with the simplistic right wing stupidity mentality.
Bruce Mills
: We would not have a problem with experts who do not
: work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
: Then everyone would have some experience with the
: military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
: about the military, she has never served. We who have
: served are superior to liberals like herself.
I don't agree with the draft, there are too many loopholes to get out of
it. I would prefer a system of manditory service, like the Israelis and
the Swiss. Women, too.
Bruce
--
There are only two means by which men can deal with one another: guns or
logic. Force or persuasion. Those who know that they cannot win by means
of logic, have always resorted to guns.
- Ayn Rand
billh
"N9NWO" <
> We should done Kent State far sooner. And more frequently.
Great influence you have on others. Maybe you ought to teach. NOT. LOL!!!
N9NWO
: rednecks?
Is that what you call the working class, rednecks?
: We could turn the military and police into a new gestapo!
:
: Maybe you could get some respect for your stupid fucking right
: wing political mentality then?
Why didn't you serve? Too good? Like Clinton was?
Many of the non defense "experts" are like the academics
within the Kennedy/LBJ era who ran the Vietnam War.
Ever remember Vietnam being called the "professors war"?
Now we have the yuppies with their masters degrees and the
academic liberals both telling the rest of us how to fight wars
and run our lives. But neither group willing to do their fair share
and serve in the military. They see themselves as "too valuable".
We need the draft back so that the educated would have
to serve along side with the working classes. We had a
more equal society when the draft was in effect.
billh
"N9NWO"
> There are few democrats that I trust. Ex-senator Kerrey being one
> of the few. While I do not like the fact that too many neo-conservatives
> did not serve, at least they saw the light and now support us.
"Us"? I wouldn't expect that support for long when you make stupid
statements like, "We should done Kent State far sooner. And more
frequently."
And there
> are far more republicans with military service, even in congress, than
there
> are democrats.
How many would support your statement above, hero?
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
hero Rush Limbaugh is? That excuses Limbaugh dodging the draft?
Limbaugh is a chickenhawk, like so many of your Noble Republican
hypocrites. Very "supportive" of the military, just as long as he
doesn't have to be the one being shipped to Vietnam or Kosovo to
get his ass shot off.
I'll bet a hypocritical turd like N9NW0 just ADORES a loser like
Limbaugh!
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
Fuck you and your moronic politics.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
In your simplistic right wing mentality, it's a case of Republican Good,
Democrat Bad.
And you wonder why everyone recognizes what an ignoramus you are!
And here you are trying to suck up to the military.
Jim Alder
>
> We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> Then everyone would have some experience with the
> military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> about the military, she has never served. We who have
> served are superior to liberals like herself.
Careful, N. You're starting to sound like a
liberal. "We're superior so you have no right
to..."? But then, I never served in the military
either, so I guess I should keep quiet.
--
- = - = - = -
Jim
"People may fail many times, but they
become failures only when they begin to
blame someone else." - UNKNOWN
N9NWO
: > of the few. While I do not like the fact that too many
neo-conservatives
: > did not serve, at least they saw the light and now support us.
:
: "Us"? I wouldn't expect that support for long when you make stupid
: statements like, "We should done Kent State far sooner. And more
: frequently."
First off, how old are you and when did you last serve?
A lot of changes have happened since you left service.
There are many, many of us serving how have little
love for the anti war liberals who fucked us during
Vietnam.
: And there
: > are far more republicans with military service, even in congress, than
: there are democrats.
:
: How many would support your statement above, hero?
Simple. Just with congress, it would be simple to look
up every congressman's bio and check. As it is, about
25% of all congressmen have military service. Less than
a third of those with service are democrats.
And Army Times reported a study about a year ago that
showed a military that is heavily skewed to the right, especially
the religious right. What democrats that are serving now are
mostly minorities who are just as conservative as the republicans
in the ranks.
With the WW2 generation dying off, there are fewer and fewer
democrats with service. The Clinton draw down has accelerated
the shift to the right in the ranks as most left leaning folks have
had a hard time staying in.
And do not call me a hero. I am not a false "hero" like
Clinton and the liberals are.
N9NWO
:
: Great influence you have on others. Maybe you ought to teach. NOT.
LOL!!!
The Army does have a program called Troops to Teachers. They
pay for a retiree to get his masters in education (most army NCOs
have a college degree) and will pay for half of the first three years
pay as a teacher. God knows that most ex military would do a better
job than what we are getting these days. Hear about the principal
who kicked a kid out of grade school because the kid drew a picture
of a soldier with gun? The principal said that he found soldiers to be
offense to himself.
As far as Kent State went, it basically ended the anti war protests.
It made protests real instead of a game. Most decided that they had
better things to do. Like getting a job.
How much of the current WTO protests and the various riots
would stop if the cops just opened fire? Just look at the protestors,
they are having "fun". It is a game to them. And most protests
are nothing but low level riots anyway.
N9NWO
:
: Fuck you and your moronic politics.
Except that you are an outsider with NO power. And I hope
that you do not own guns as you are too mentally unstable to
be trusted.
No wonder you love Clinton. He made it easy for you to
justify your being a loser, a misfit.
At least Kennedy encouraged the American people to be
better than they were. Clinton encouraged people to be
losers, wimps and dependent.
billh
"N9NWO"
> First off, how old are you and when did you last serve?
My age is my business. I've served nearly 19 years.
> A lot of changes have happened since you left service.
LOL!!!
> : How many would support your statement above, hero?
>
> Simple. Just with congress, it would be simple to look
> up every congressman's bio and check. As it is, about
> 25% of all congressmen have military service. Less than
> a third of those with service are democrats.
And you think this means they will support your statement, ""We should done
Kent State far sooner. And more frequently."?
> And do not call me a hero. I am not a false "hero" like
> Clinton and the liberals are.
Anyone who thinks the Kent State incident was a good thing and should have
been done "far sooner. And more frequently." certainly deserves the title
you used of "false hero".
billh
"N9NWO"
> The Army does have a program called Troops to Teachers. They
> pay for a retiree to get his masters in education (most army NCOs
> have a college degree) and will pay for half of the first three years
> pay as a teacher.
No, the program does not pay for a Masters of Ed.
> As far as Kent State went, it basically ended the anti war protests.
Ever heard of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Contitution?
> It made protests real instead of a game. Most decided that they had
> better things to do. Like getting a job.
>
> How much of the current WTO protests and the various riots
> would stop if the cops just opened fire?
The U.S. Constitution is obviously of no value to you. Sad, truly sad.
N9NWO
: : work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
: : Then everyone would have some experience with the
: : military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
: : about the military, she has never served. We who have
: : served are superior to liberals like herself.
:
: I don't agree with the draft, there are too many loopholes to get out of
: it. I would prefer a system of manditory service, like the Israelis and
: the Swiss. Women, too.
I concur. That is what I meant when I said the "draft".
However, the 2nd amendment calls for a well regulated
militia and the US Code (law) defines the militia to be
all males between 17 and 45 who are fit to serve (not
a cripple, mentally ill/retarded, homosexual, felon). See
Title 10 Sect. 311 and 312. Most males in the US are
not "well regulated", that is trained and equipped to serve.
What is needed is that all males, if fit, to be required to
serve in the National Guard. The only exemptions would
be to serve in the active components, the military reserves
or as a police or fire officer. Give them the opportunity to
start serving between age 16 to 21 (21 would be the mandatory
beginning). Have either six years of service in the Guard
or reserves, three years on active duty or 5 years as a police
or fire officer.
As much as I would like to see all women serve, too many
women in the US are already so physically unfit by the time
they reach their teenage years that it would be hard to train
them. As it is, at least half of all females (who now join) drop
out of service before finishing their first term of service. Nearly
a quarter drop out during basic training. It would require that
we totally restructure the US school systems to ensure that kids
are ready to enlist.
Aaron R. Kulkis
What wars did you serve in, hero?
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com
ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com ab...@msn.com ab...@sprint.com
ab...@earthlink.com
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
N9NWO
: hero Rush Limbaugh is? That excuses Limbaugh dodging the draft?
:
: Limbaugh is a chickenhawk, like so many of your Noble Republican
: hypocrites. Very "supportive" of the military, just as long as he
: doesn't have to be the one being shipped to Vietnam or Kosovo to
: get his ass shot off.
:
: I'll bet a hypocritical turd like N9NW0 just ADORES a loser like
: Limbaugh!
Yes I do. And look at how liberals demanded us to go to Kosovo
and Bosnia while Rush questioned that we should be there.
Leftists, like you, hate the military. Too many elected democrats
have no love of the military. Why should we support them?
Aaron R. Kulkis
The right to peaceably assemble is *not* a right to riot.
Hope that helps, moron.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> N9NWO wrote:
> >
> > We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> > Then everyone would have some experience with the
> > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> > about the military, she has never served. We who have
> > served are superior to liberals like herself.
>
> Careful, N. You're starting to sound like a
> liberal. "We're superior so you have no right
> to..."? But then, I never served in the military
> either, so I guess I should keep quiet.
>
It's called giving the enemy what they dish out.
billh
"Aaron R. Kulkis"
> What wars did you serve in, hero?
Still haven't figured it out, whinebe?
N9NWO
: > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
: > Then everyone would have some experience with the
: > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
: > about the military, she has never served. We who have
: > served are superior to liberals like herself.
:
: Careful, N. You're starting to sound like a
: liberal. "We're superior so you have no right
: to..."? But then, I never served in the military
: either, so I guess I should keep quiet.
I like the German system. Issues like gun control
are solely decided by the military and police. You
have to be a member of the BDMP (Association
of Military and Police Shooters). The political
system gives the military and police a larger voice
than the general public.
Lone Haranguer
entertaining but her reputation for truth is not good.
LZ
hamilton wrote:
>
> In article <ZxZI6.160$W05....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "billh"
> <williamhu...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "N9NWO"
> >
> > > We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> > > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> > > Then everyone would have some experience with the
> > > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> > > about the military, she has never served. We who have
> > > served are superior to liberals like herself.
> >
> > Molly Irvins most certainly does have a right to an opinion and a right to
> > express it. To say otherwise is tyrannical.
> >
> > What she doesn't have a right to is an audience or a right to others'
> > agreement. That she must earn.
>
> his point is however a good one -- one of the big problems with our
> current military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch of bellicose
> country club bullies whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
> movies -- my they do love to strut and talk about 'throw weights' and
> 'footprints' blah blah blah
>
> when many men served in the military through the draft we had a large
> population of citizens who could inform their fellow citizens that the
> notion of military competence and efficiency was hooey -- now we have
> these nimrods who worship the military having never viewed it up close
> running things and gullible citizens who believe what they say.
>
> and of course many of those experienced citizens were liberals as well as
> conservatives
>
> and of course Molly Ivins has actually done some research on the subject
> and is fairly knowledgeable compared to the general run of couch potatoes
> in the population so her attempts to inform are at least a step in the
> right direction
>
> the military is not less competent than other organizations generally
> speaking -- but it is certainly not more competent. people who have served
> know that and have a healthy skepticism. nothing more dangerous than a
> 'professional military' manned by people who share a common ideology and a
> population with too little experience to question what they assert or
> demand.
billh
"N9NWO"
> I like the German system. Issues like gun control
> are solely decided by the military and police. You
> have to be a member of the BDMP (Association
> of Military and Police Shooters). The political
> system gives the military and police a larger voice
> than the general public.
Fell free to migrate. We'll not miss you.
N9NWO
: >
: >If North Korea threatens to nuke an American city, Molly Ivins should go
: >live there. At ground zero. Along with her friends and family. As
: >HUMAN SHIELDS, to take the place of other Americans who would prefer to
: >be protected by their Government.
: >
: >Otherwise, she should SHUT UP.
: >
: Will The Mitre Corporation arrange the logistics for our travel to ground
: zero?
What is interesting is how that the military is contracting out
so much of the logistics. Cooks, mechanics, repair techs,
even truck drivers. All the jobs where the mission is more
about not shooting a gun. No more technicians in uniform.
As it is ATA does most of the PAX transport, even in wartime.
And FED-EX is now one of the biggest cargo haulers for the
military.
N9NWO
:
: My age is my business. I've served nearly 19 years.
No it is not. Either you are still in or you were forced out.
Either you have current military experience or you are so
out of touch that you no longer understand the military.
I have seen this happen with the guys in Misc.Survivalism
and Talk.Politics.Guns.
: > A lot of changes have happened since you left service.
:
: LOL!!!
:
:
: > : How many would support your statement above, hero?
: >
: > Simple. Just with congress, it would be simple to look
: > up every congressman's bio and check. As it is, about
: > 25% of all congressmen have military service. Less than
: > a third of those with service are democrats.
:
: And you think this means they will support your statement, ""We should
done
: Kent State far sooner. And more frequently."?
Kent State ended the anti war movement for most of the
protesters. And there are many in the military that would
open fire on US citizens if the situation called for it. And
protests that are becoming open rebellions, as the anti war
movement had become, is a justified use of force. The
Civil War ended the US citizens right to forcibly rebel
against the government. Rebellion could be called treason.
There are acceptable ways to protest US policies. Rioting
and armed rebellion is not one of them.
N9NWO
:
: Still haven't figured it out, whinebe?
I would say that you served in Vietnam.
And that you were forced out of service
due to medical problems.
N9NWO
: > pay for a retiree to get his masters in education (most army NCOs
: > have a college degree) and will pay for half of the first three years
: > pay as a teacher.
:
: No, the program does not pay for a Masters of Ed.
That was not what was reported in Stars and Stripes.
: > As far as Kent State went, it basically ended the anti war protests.
:
: Ever heard of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Contitution?
The Civil War ended the US citizens' right to engage
in armed rebellion against the government. The anti
war movement was engaged in armed rebellion.
Rioting and armed rebellion are not acceptable forms
of speech.
: > It made protests real instead of a game. Most decided that they had
: > better things to do. Like getting a job.
: >
: > How much of the current WTO protests and the various riots
: > would stop if the cops just opened fire?
:
: The U.S. Constitution is obviously of no value to you. Sad, truly sad.
I think that many cops would agree with my position. There
is a warped viewpoint on the Constitution these days that the
founders would have found shocking.
We live in a community. Every right has responsibilities. What
we have today is a teenagers attitude towards rights that have no
responsibilities tied to them.
N9NWO
If I could get a job with DOD, I would
go in a heart beat. The town I lived in
over there had four gun ranges. The gun
stores have, on average, $1.5 million in
stock. But as it is, I work for another agency.
And they have no positions, currently,
overseas.
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
>> > about the military, she has never served.
>whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
>movies
John Wayne never serviced in the military either.
Det2
Kulkis" <aku...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>billh wrote:
>>
>> "N9NWO"
>>
>> > There are few democrats that I trust. Ex-senator Kerrey being one
>> > of the few. While I do not like the fact that too many neo-conservatives
>> > did not serve, at least they saw the light and now support us.
>>
>> "Us"? I wouldn't expect that support for long when you make stupid
>> statements like, "We should done Kent State far sooner. And more
>> frequently."
>>
>> And there
>> > are far more republicans with military service, even in congress, than
>> there
>> > are democrats.
>>
>> How many would support your statement above, hero?
>
>What wars did you serve in, hero?
>
The cold one.
Where were you in 1978 ?
SSG Paul D. Carrier
Readiness NCO (63H & 45K)
Det 2 Co. B 145 SPT BN
Camp Withycombe, Clackamas OR
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 21:03:36 -0400, "Aaron R.
> Kulkis" <aku...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >billh wrote:
> >>
> >> "N9NWO"
> >>
> >> > There are few democrats that I trust. Ex-senator Kerrey being one
> >> > of the few. While I do not like the fact that too many neo-conservatives
> >> > did not serve, at least they saw the light and now support us.
> >>
> >> "Us"? I wouldn't expect that support for long when you make stupid
> >> statements like, "We should done Kent State far sooner. And more
> >> frequently."
> >>
> >> And there
> >> > are far more republicans with military service, even in congress, than
> >> there
> >> > are democrats.
> >>
> >> How many would support your statement above, hero?
> >
> >What wars did you serve in, hero?
> >
>
> The cold one.
AKA the one with no bullets flying.
>
> Where were you in 1978 ?
>
> SSG Paul D. Carrier
> Readiness NCO (63H & 45K)
> Det 2 Co. B 145 SPT BN
> Camp Withycombe, Clackamas OR
Aaron R. Kulkis
Greg, you misspelled "mental"
Aaron R. Kulkis
ANSWER THE QUESTION, *HERO*
Aaron R. Kulkis
The only problem with Kent State was a couple of instances of
poor marksmanship.
Clue for the Clueless: the First Amendment does *NOT* recognize
a right to riot. In fact, the wording of the 1st Amendment
definitely shows that rioting is NOT a right, not even with
context of the non-enumerated rights of the 9th and 10th Amendments.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> "N9NWO"
>
> > The Army does have a program called Troops to Teachers. They
> > pay for a retiree to get his masters in education (most army NCOs
> > have a college degree) and will pay for half of the first three years
> > pay as a teacher.
>
> No, the program does not pay for a Masters of Ed.
>
> > As far as Kent State went, it basically ended the anti war protests.
>
> Ever heard of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Contitution?
What part of "PEACABLY ASSEMBLE" do you not understand?
>
> > It made protests real instead of a game. Most decided that they had
> > better things to do. Like getting a job.
> >
> > How much of the current WTO protests and the various riots
> > would stop if the cops just opened fire?
>
> The U.S. Constitution is obviously of no value to you. Sad, truly sad.
See above.
Bill, does the maxim "Better to be thought a fool, than to open your
mouth and remove all doubt"
Remember this the next time you want to blubber on about how the
C-130 is incapable of performing strategic airlift, when aircraft
with FAR smaller capacity and range have carried out that exact
same mission type.
Aaron R. Kulkis
Which reinforces the point.
Aaron R. Kulkis
Easy: Require a Physical fitness test IN ADDITION to academic
achievement for a high school diploma.
Aaron R. Kulkis
Most of my battalion (including the CO, staff, and myself) returned
to the US via FED-EX.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
and he and N9NW0 come to the conclusion that almost everyone in the
military is a slobbering right wing dufus..
Roger Perkins
understand what it means to the troops on the ground. Packing pallets,
drawing weapons, getting shots, making out wills, etc. You gotta have done
it for real to understand the REAL cost of sending in the troops.
Roger
AIRBORNE!
"N9NWO" <n9...@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:%qZI6.508$R01.3...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> Then everyone would have some experience with the
> military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> about the military, she has never served. We who have
> served are superior to liberals like herself.
>
>
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
All you know is that I'm in disagreement with your gross stupidity
and therefore must be an Evil "Leftist". No doubt I'm left of a right
wing fanatic like you.
And, that's a very interesting idea you have - don't "support" anyone
as a soldier that you don't want to. Tell that to your commander.
You've got that lifer mentality - a fucking loser who can't cut it
in civilian life, and hates all civilians, and officers as well. Well,
I have news for you, I'm a civilian now and I outrank your stupid ass
and you can't do a goddam thing about it.
The military would be far better off without lifer losers like you.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
You're a sad case.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
for the police state you want?
N9NWO wrote:
>
> : : We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> : : work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> : : Then everyone would have some experience with the
> : : military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> : : about the military, she has never served. We who have
> : : served are superior to liberals like herself.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
I'll bet I could whip your silly ass in a heartbeat, you old fart.
And we all know what a fucking zero you are mentally. I could get
a lobotomy and beat your sorry ass mentally.
I'll bet I make more money than you do too.
Fuck you, loser, and your moronic politics.
N9NWO wrote:
>
> : We can do without the little right wing gestapo types, like YOU.
> :
> : Fuck you and your moronic politics.
>
> Except that you are an outsider with NO power. And I hope
> that you do not own guns as you are too mentally unstable to
> be trusted.
>
> No wonder you love Clinton. He made it easy for you to
> justify your being a loser, a misfit.
>
> At least Kennedy encouraged the American people to be
> better than they were. Clinton encouraged people to be
> losers, wimps and dependent.
N9NWO
: and he and N9NW0 come to the conclusion that almost everyone in the
: military is a slobbering right wing dufus..
Well, your knowledge is limited due to your
lack of service. But then it is rather difficult
to enlist if you are homosexual.
And the military is skewed to the right. There are conservative
democrats serving, mostly minorities. But damned few liberals.
N9NWO
:
: And we all know what a fucking zero you are mentally. I could get
: a lobotomy and beat your sorry ass mentally.
:
: I'll bet I make more money than you do too.
:
: Fuck you, loser, and your moronic politics.
Typical democrat. Insecure and money hungry.
N9NWO
:
: All you know is that I'm in disagreement with your gross stupidity
: and therefore must be an Evil "Leftist". No doubt I'm left of a right
: wing fanatic like you.
:
: And, that's a very interesting idea you have - don't "support" anyone
: as a soldier that you don't want to. Tell that to your commander.
:
: You've got that lifer mentality - a fucking loser who can't cut it
: in civilian life, and hates all civilians, and officers as well. Well,
: I have news for you, I'm a civilian now and I outrank your stupid ass
: and you can't do a goddam thing about it.
:
: The military would be far better off without lifer losers like you.
I am a lifer, that is true. But then my whole family is
that way. My mother has over 50 years of OB nursing,
three of my sisters are nurses, two are teachers. And
the oldest and youngest are married to preachers. And
not one democrat among them.
So you admit to having served! My guess is that you were
Air Force or Navy, you do not have the balls to be a gent.
And you do not out rank us as you are just a taxpayer with
no voice.
N9NWO
: You're a sad case.
More freedom there than here these days.
That is what is sad.
billh
"N9NWO"
> : > First off, how old are you and when did you last serve?
> :
> : My age is my business. I've served nearly 19 years.
> No it is not.
Yes, my age is my business.
Either you are still in or you were forced out.
> Either you have current military experience or you are so
> out of touch that you no longer understand the military.
> I have seen this happen with the guys in Misc.Survivalism
> and Talk.Politics.Guns.
As I said, I've served 19 years. I'll add that I'll propably serve three
more and retire and retire from the Regular Army. My age is still my
business.
> Kent State ended the anti war movement for most of the
> protesters.
Do you consider the death of those four students a good thing? It was
bullshit, wrong, and a tragedy. Kent State ended a lot more than the
anti-war movement for most protestors.
And there are many in the military that would
> open fire on US citizens if the situation called for it. And
> protests that are becoming open rebellions, as the anti war
> movement had become, is a justified use of force. The
> Civil War ended the US citizens right to forcibly rebel
> against the government. Rebellion could be called treason.
Rebellion is not treason.
>
> There are acceptable ways to protest US policies. Rioting
> and armed rebellion is not one of them.
The four dead at Kent State were not armed.
billh
"N9NWO"
> I would say that you served in Vietnam.
> And that you were forced out of service
> due to medical problems.
LOL!!! That's just as accurate as 98% of what you post here.
billh
"N9NWO" > : Fell free to migrate. We'll not miss you.
billh
"You've got MALE.. sex organs!" <cool...@luke.com> wrote in message
news:3AF4CA23...@luke.com...
> Oh boy! Move to Germany so you can buy the GUNS you want!
> You're a sad case.
He'd have to. He couldn't ship them from here. That ended about a year
ago.
billh
"N9NWO"
> More freedom there than here these days.
> That is what is sad.
Much of that has to do with attitudes like yours.
billh
"Det2"
> The cold one.
>
>
> Where were you in 1978 ?
KuKuNut won't answer this because he doesn't want to say what elementary
school grade he was in.
billh
"Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > > What wars did you serve in, hero?
> >
> > Still haven't figured it out, whinebe?
>
> ANSWER THE QUESTION, *HERO*
My, aren't you a tad excitable. Dance, Specialist, dance.
billh
"N9NWO"
> Well, your knowledge is limited due to your
> lack of service.
What's your excuse?
Eyewitness
>We would not have a problem with experts who do not
>work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
>Then everyone would have some experience with the
>military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
>about the military, she has never served. We who have
>served are superior to liberals like herself.
>
>
Peeling potatoes on KP does not make you an expert on defense.
"I don't know whether I'm going to win or not.
I think I am. I do know I'm ready for the job.
And, if not, that's just the way it goes."-
George W. Bush in Des Moines, Iowa, Aug. 21, 2000
Jim Alder
>
> Jim Alder wrote:
> >
> > N9NWO wrote:
> > >
> > > We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> > > work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> > > Then everyone would have some experience with the
> > > military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> > > about the military, she has never served. We who have
> > > served are superior to liberals like herself.
> >
> > liberal. "We're superior so you have no right
> > to..."? But then, I never served in the military
> > either, so I guess I should keep quiet.
> >
> It's called giving the enemy what they dish out.
And if the 'enemy' dishes out stupidity? Better
to dish out what he needs, not what he already
has.
- = - = - = -
Jim
"People may fail many times, but they
become failures only when they begin to
blame someone else." - UNKNOWN
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
And you think most soldiers are pathetic little right wing turds
like YOU?
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
I couldn't give a shit LESS what a loser like you thinks.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
And who said I was a Democrat? All you know is that I'm
not a Noble Republican.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
Why not require a "right wing dufus political mentality" fitness
requirement too?
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
No wonder you need your guns to be a man. You and your pansy
old fart buddy, N9NWO, you need some way to ensure that no
one ever challenges your politics.
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> billh wrote:
> >
> > "N9NWO"
> >
> > > First off, how old are you and when did you last serve?
> >
> > My age is my business. I've served nearly 19 years.
> >
> > > A lot of changes have happened since you left service.
> >
> > LOL!!!
> >
> > > : How many would support your statement above, hero?
> > >
> > > Simple. Just with congress, it would be simple to look
> > > up every congressman's bio and check. As it is, about
> > > 25% of all congressmen have military service. Less than
> > > a third of those with service are democrats.
> >
> > And you think this means they will support your statement, ""We should done
> > Kent State far sooner. And more frequently."?
> >
> > > And do not call me a hero. I am not a false "hero" like
> > > Clinton and the liberals are.
> >
> > Anyone who thinks the Kent State incident was a good thing and should have
> > been done "far sooner. And more frequently." certainly deserves the title
> > you used of "false hero".
>
> The only problem with Kent State was a couple of instances of
> poor marksmanship.
>
> Clue for the Clueless: the First Amendment does *NOT* recognize
> a right to riot. In fact, the wording of the 1st Amendment
> definitely shows that rioting is NOT a right, not even with
> context of the non-enumerated rights of the 9th and 10th Amendments.
You've got MALE.. sex organs!
Molly Ivins is entitled to her opinions about anything.
And little weak minded right wing turds like you are going to
have to learn to deal with our 1st Amendment rights. Not everyone
has to agree with you fascist bastards.
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> dot...@OMnotdotnetdotcomIT.net wrote:
> >
> > >> > Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> > >> > about the military, she has never served.
> >
> > >whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
> > >movies
> >
> > John Wayne never serviced in the military either.
>
> Which reinforces the point.
Bowen69jack
Molly might be more to the left than the right - she has been know to give the
so-called left-wing pols a little bit of hell when they are wrong - but she is
one sharp gal and generally cuts thru the bull in her writings.
I read the article and it made a lot of sense .
It's not that we don't need adequate defense systems - we do. But I get the
feeling that it is 1992 all over again - Ronnie passing out $$$$$$$$ to build
something that never got built and probably would not have done the job anyway.
And of course giving tax cuts at the same time.
The result - the hugh national debt we now have. Maybe W ( or should I say
Dick) can beat Ronnies borrowing record.
>>If North Korea threatens to nuke an American city,
At least Ronnie had Russia - North Korea?????
JB
Siva
> We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> Then everyone would have some experience with the
> military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> about the military, she has never served. We who have
> served are superior to liberals like herself.
>
Perhaps this could be a credible post if Molly Ivins ACTUALLY WROTE what you
posted here. Please, do us all a favor and cite the date and place of
publication of the editorial.
Siva
This might be a credible post if Molly Ivins ACTUALLY WROTE this. Please do
us all a favor and cite the date and source where this was published.
Trebor
It didn't work then and it won't work now. History shows us that very
often great dynasties or Empires at the threshold of decline will
attempt to wall themselves off from the rest of the world, as if
holding at bay the internal moral corruption which goes along with
arrogance and unchecked power. The only differnce is that today we
have the ability to build our great walls in the sky. The 'great
missle defense system' will stand as a monument to all future ages of
another critical juncture in history when rather than engaging the
world in a spirit of cooperation and humility , we chose instead to
wall ourselves off in order to preserve the illusion of America's
invincibile power and hegemony.
cheers,
Trebor
Harold
>We would not have a problem with experts who do not
>work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
>Then everyone would have some experience with the
>military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
>about the military, she has never served. We who have
>served are superior to liberals like herself.
>
>
>John Fischer <jr4...@core.com> wrote in message news:9098.9e8f.c8@dell...
>: Dear Fellow Freedom Fighters,
>:
>: I read this op/ed Saturday morning and thought that you might be
>: interested.
>:
>: I Don't Know If a National Missile Defense System Will Work
>:
>: By Molly Ivins
Actually, no one knows that. The proposal is to find out if it will.
In any case, Molly Ivins has no qualifications to address the
question.
[deleted]
Regards, Harold
----
"Is it just or reasonable, that most voices against the main end
of government should enslave the less number that would be free?
More just it is, doubtless, if it come to force, that a less number
compel a greater to retain, which can be no wrong to them, their
liberty, than that a greater number, for the pleasure of their
baseness, compel a less most injuriously to be their fellow slaves.
They who seek nothing but their own liberty, have always
the right to win it, whenever they have the power, be the
voices never so numerous that oppose it."
---John Milton, Poet (1608 - 1674)
Harold
wrote:
[deleted]
> one of the big problems with our
>current military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch of bellicose
>country club bullies whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
>movies -- my they do love to strut and talk about 'throw weights' and
>'footprints' blah blah blah
You mean like Collin Powell? Or Rumsfield?
Personally, I don't think being in the military is sufficient, or even
necessary, to criticize either the military or those unhappy with the
military.
Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
-------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed
and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks
nothing worth a war, is worse. . . . "
---John Stuart Mill, (1859)
Harold
>On Sat, 05 May 2001 20:31:55 GMT, "N9NWO" <n9...@amsat.org> wrote:
>
>>We would not have a problem with experts who do not
>>work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
>>Then everyone would have some experience with the
>>military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
>>about the military, she has never served. We who have
>>served are superior to liberals like herself.
>Peeling potatoes on KP does not make you an expert on defense.
True enough. It does howevere, signify that they have done much more
than was ever done for their nation than some of the more vocal
critics.
Harold
>N9NWO actually thought himself to be an adult when wrote:
>
[deleted]
>> :
>> : Read more of the above op/ed:
>> : http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ipmi/20010503/cm/i_don_t_know_if_a_national
>> : _missile_defense_system_will_work_1.html
>> :
>Perhaps this could be a credible post if Molly Ivins ACTUALLY WROTE what you
>posted here. Please, do us all a favor and cite the date and place of
>publication of the editorial.
He did. There it is, I stripped out the rest of the message to point
it out.
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
>There are many, many of us serving how have little
>love for the anti war liberals who fucked us during
>Vietnam.
They're still not sorry they brought you home alive so that you could
live to have such opionions, for the most part.
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
<aku...@yahoo.com> posted:
>> John Wayne never serviced in the military either.
>
>Which reinforces the point.
It certainly reinforces the often-made point that rightwing idiots
eager to promote war generally never fought in one. Like Clinton and
mainstream Democrats.
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
>However, the 2nd amendment calls for a well regulated
>militia and
... the body of the Constitution charges congress with the
responsibility of defining it.
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
>liberals demanded us to go to Kosovo
>and Bosnia while Rush questioned that we should be there.
Conservatives loved the operations in Kosovo. All the way to the bank.
>Leftists, like you, hate the military. Too many elected democrats
>have no love of the military. Why should we support them?
I think that those who choose military service should get the best
breaks our society can offer. The best people I've known personally
have been those served our nation in combat. And not a one of them
talks the sort of stupid shit we hear from Kulkis.
Bowen69jack
>>love for the anti war liberals who fucked us during
>>Vietnam.
>
>They're still not sorry they brought you home alive so that you could
>live to have such opionions, for the most part.
It was the pressure from the public that ended the war when it did. Without
that it would have continued at a greater loss of life fighting a war we could
not win and should not have even started.
JB
dot...@omnotdotnetdotcomit.net
Based on the many real war heroes I've known personally in my life, I
think Kulkis did KP offshore and got shipped home when he cut his
finger. People that actually were in the deep shit don't talk like
these armchair warriors.
Lone Haranguer
Smoking the weed again Trebby? This administration favors trade with
China and expansion of NAFTA. Hardly in sync with your "walls in the
sky" theory.
LZ
> cheers,
> Trebor
billh
"louisa"
> she does her homework [and unlike the namesake of this group, when
This group? Look at the headers. Six groups, three of which contain one of
two personal names.
louisa
haroldb...@yahoo.com (Harold) wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 20:31:55 GMT, "N9NWO" <n9...@amsat.org> wrote:
>
> >We would not have a problem with experts who do not
> >work in the defense industry if we had the draft back.
> >Then everyone would have some experience with the
> >military. Molly Irvins does not have a right to an opinion
> >about the military, she has never served. We who have
> >served are superior to liberals like herself.
> >
> >
> >John Fischer <jr4...@core.com> wrote in message news:9098.9e8f.c8@dell...
> >: Dear Fellow Freedom Fighters,
> >:
> >: I read this op/ed Saturday morning and thought that you might be
> >: interested.
> >:
> >: I Don't Know If a National Missile Defense System Will Work
> >:
> >: By Molly Ivins
>
> Actually, no one knows that. The proposal is to find out if it will.
>
> In any case, Molly Ivins has no qualifications to address the
> question.
of course she does -- the idea that you have to be in the military to know
about the military is stupid
she does her homework [and unlike the namesake of this group, when she
makes a mistake in print, she addresses and retracts it]
louisa
haroldb...@yahoo.com (Harold) wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 17:29:11 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> wrote:
>
> [deleted]
>
> > one of the big problems with our
> >current military policy is that it is being shaped by a bunch of bellicose
> >country club bullies whose only military experience is watching John Wayne
> >movies -- my they do love to strut and talk about 'throw weights' and
> >'footprints' blah blah blah
>
> You mean like Collin Powell? Or Rumsfield?
>
> Personally, I don't think being in the military is sufficient, or even
> necessary, to criticize either the military or those unhappy with the
> military.
I assume you refer to Colin Powell and Rumsfeld? Powel of course is being
virtually ignored in the Bush administration.
but of course you are right that one doesn't need to be in the military to
critize it -- but it helps to not be a worshipper of all things military
to have some actual experience. all organizations are in the business of
first and foremost aggrandizing themselves and increasing their influence
and perks -- ALL organizations including charities, including the
military, including universities, including industrial organizations ---
it is dangerous when international policy is made by weenies who avoided
service but who at the same time have an inflated view of the utility of
posturing and force. these yahoos are reducing our security. it might
help if they remembered that the blustering John Wayne was a war wimp too.
louisa
<williamhu...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
sorry -- was refering to Limbaugh of course [but the same would actually
apply to Bush who also is not in the habit of correcting his errors]
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> "N9NWO"
>
> > I would say that you served in Vietnam.
> > And that you were forced out of service
> > due to medical problems.
>
> LOL!!! That's just as accurate as 98% of what you post here.
Must be right on the mark, then.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> "N9NWO"
>
> > Well, your knowledge is limited due to your
> > lack of service.
>
> What's your excuse?
Greg knows a hell of a lot more than you do.
He worked at theater headquarters in the gulf.
Where were you, Hero?
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> More evidence of what a fucking little FASCIST you are.
>
> No wonder you need your guns to be a man. You and your pansy
The guns I have are ISSUED to be by **YOUR** government...and some day,
to enforce YOUR fascist laws....against YOU.
Hope that helps, dumbass.