Women are bitches ( Lots 'o anger inside )
David M Edsall
I've been wanting to do this for a while but I always calmed myself
down. I need to do this.
You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
is screwed up. I want love.
I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
knows how to love you. You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
love means.
I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
But men aren't suppose to cry. They have to be strong 24 hours a day,
7 days a week.
You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
you don't want me.
What the fuck is your problem?
Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
to give me a chance.
But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
your lack of compassion.
So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
your gender after all.
Dave
And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
Muttley
>
KEEP THIS IN MIND. THIS IS NOT A FLAME. PLEASE READ IT.
>
>
> I've been wanting to do this for a while but I always calmed myself
> down. I need to do this.
I promised myself that I wouldn't respond. I really did. But....well,
I'm not much of the quiet type.
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
> I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
> is screwed up. I want love.
It is generally not a good idea to tell the people that you want to help
you cure your lonliness that they suck. That will not help your case, and will
slant any and all views against you. But, I read on. I was willing to give the
benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, that did not pan out. Your father abused
you. Your mother was co-dependant. Great. I think Bill Clinton had similar
problems, and he has A) A beautiful wife, who loves and cares for him, B) A
loving daughter, and C) The oval office all to himself. You cannot blame your
family because you are a loser. If Billy can do it, you can do it. (Jesus, I
just said something nice about Clinton. It's time to seriously reconsider my
views on suicide.) You want love, it's out there. You've got to take the time to
look.
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
> chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
I do the same thing. I seem to do all right. (True, I'm without SO right
now, but I'm meeting people, and have someone in mind, if she'll have me.)
> stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
> the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
Are you sure that you're being what they want? Are you sure that they
don't want it? Maybe you're missing some signals. I know I miss them often
enough. (Please apply hints with a sledgehammer, I think is the case.)
> bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
No, that's inaccurate. And calling them liars and bitches will not help
you. Really, people do base a lot on first impressions, and I can tell you that
there's a whole shitload of people here who's first impression of you is shot.
> knows how to love you. You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
No one wants someone who is insecure. We all want someone to lean on.
You're telling me that you're on the lookout for an insecure woman? We all have
insecurities about something or other. Even people who seem to be the Rock of
Gibraltar (sp), are insecure about something. They've learned to play up their
strengths and not dwell on their weaknesses. You could benefit greatly from
reading some of the posts here.
> No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
> a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
Oh, yeah. That'll bring them running every time. And you're from what
planet? C'mon, guy. Get a grip. If women really wanted that, then Alan Alda
would've been lynched.
> wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
Don't we all?
> love means.
Back up a minute. Do you know what love means? Describe it to me. Maybe
you just have a slightly different definition than someone else.
> I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
> weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
Great. Welcome to the human race. That's what love is, being able to
depend on one another when you're weak, but also being able to be an independant
person as well. You want someone totally dependant on you, and, I hate to be the
one to drop this bombshell on ya, that jus' ain't how it works.
> But men aren't suppose to cry. They have to be strong 24 hours a day,
> 7 days a week.
And I have a bridge in Wyoming for sale. Gimme a break, guy. The days of
stereotypes like that are over. Calm down, take a nice sedative, and watch some
tv. They say art reflects life, and they're not exactly wrong. TV mirrors life.
After you see what other people live like, that in today's day and age there are
no expectations of being strong 24-7, maybe you'll start to notice some of the
signs around you that are telling you that maybe people are more interested in
you than you think. But I'll tell ya what, if you keep that attitude up, you're
not going to get anywhere.
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
Not everyone is superficial. So you're fat. Look back at the Clinton
references I made. (Sorry, but I couldn't take the fact that I said something
nice about a man who I spent a year of my life, campaigning constantly against.
Sue me.) He still seems to get along fine. I hate to keep using presidential
refrences, but they're the easiest to identify with, so....look at Taft. They
had to put a special tub in the White House for him because he got stuck in the
original one. He was considerably over 300 lbs. That didn't seem to stop him
from getting a wife. Not everyone out there stops once they see your body. The
ones who do- fuck em. You don't need em if they're that superficial.
> 300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
> already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
I think it's more an attitude like the one you're displaying than your
body that makes them think that you're not worth the time.
> furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
> a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
Someone out there might want to. Ever try alt.personals? I used to think
that it was a desperation move, too. I thought about it, though, and it really
does save a lot of time cutting through the bullshit. You find someone who likes
your ad enough to e-mail you, and then woo her with what a great guy you are.
(Or at least claim to be.) That way, you don't have to worry about superficial
bullshit getting in the way.
> Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
No excuse. I have no tan and am on the low end of the average scale for
penile length (and I know that my hopeful SO is reading this and really hope she
can overlook that, or I'm gonna have to eat a whole lot of what I've just
said...), adn I still get laid. (And, Kent Students, I don't want any public
comments on this. We all know what happened, we don't need to tell the world.
That means you, Duane.) I still get dates. I still find myself in caring
relationships with people. Have you not heard the phrase, "It's not the pen,
it's how you write your name?" I'm here to tell you that there's a lot of truth
to that statement.
> What the fuck is your problem?
There's some loudmouthed jerk telling them that they're all lying
bitches? That would sorta put me off, I can't speak for them. (I know better
than to try to speak for a woman. You could put all I know about women in a
nutshell and still have room for Jessee Jackson's brain.)
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
> gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
You must be lonely for 31 years because you don't approach a woman
unless she gives you a sign. If I waited until I got a positive signal from a
woman to approach her, I'd have never met a woman in my life. Don't just leer at
them, walk over, start a conversation. What's the worst she can say? Sorry, I'm
not interested? It's not like she'll tear gas you for trying to start a
conversation. Who knows? Maybe you're just misreading signals. Take it from me,
I'm a master at that.
> don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
> up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
You've yet to prove any shred of niceness to anyone here. I'm offering
constructive advice because I'm too stupid not to rush out and help everyone I
see in need. One day I'll wise up, but until then, learn something off of others
mistakes, and take heed of a passing fool's kindness. Ask anyone at Kent, it's a
damn rare thing when I say something intelligent, so think of yourself as
something special for getting one directed at you.
> You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
> the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
> to give me a chance.
I think that marriage is, in most people's minds, the final step in
securing a romantic relationship. After that, it's free to grow at a much faster
rate. 'course, I could be wrong.....I don't know from marriage. Hell, closest I
ever got was 30 days from walking the aisle. (Needless to say, through plenty of
fault of my own, that failed.)
> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
Yes. Men are assholes too. I agree with you 100%. (That's why I get
bombarded with the "Men are Pigs" speech so often, I cannot disagree with it.)
> this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
> bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
I'll agree. There was bad judgement at play here. You miss the part
about whose judgement was bad. The women (I will not say girls, I am in enough
trouble from the left due to what I've said about President Clinton.) are not
entirely at fault. Ok, so maybe some of the superficial ones passed you by
because you were not physically attractive to them. You don't want a woman like
that anyway. (Trust me on this one, I know of whence I speak.) There is someone
out there willing to listen, give her a chance to come to you. (Of course, you
might want to post anon to alt.personals, as most of the people who read this
also read alt.personals and vice-versa, and your image isn't so hot right about
now. After this cools off a bit, then use your name, but for now, anonymous
posting is a good thing.)
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
> abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
> your lack of compassion.
Nope, sorry, Dave, but I have to call a spade a spade. It's abusive as
all hell. No matter what the reason behind it is, it's abusive. If I went home
and kicked the shit out of my dog, (which I would rather die than do, so please,
PETA, don't come after me.), and said it was because I hadn't had a good
day/week/month/year/decade/life/etc, it's still abuse.
> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
It doesn't apply to anyone. Your twisted view of society has got to
change, or you'll always be lonely and miserable. One does not cure loneliness
by driving everyone away. Really, take time to really think about what we both
said.
> If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
> your gender after all.
There is hope for them. Is there hope for you?
> And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
> Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
> closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
Like I said, I'm not flaming you.
Don't give me any shit about being in Europe for a year. I lived half my life in
Europe, and all my life I was really surprised if I lived in the same country
for more than two years. I know what it's like to be lonely, to have few
friends, not to speak the language. People are people no matter where you go.
Try learning the language, a really great way to meet people is at a class to
learn the language of the country you live in. Get a female study partner.
She'll help you out. And I know the pain of losing the closest person to you, I
recently went through losing the person who got me off the drugs and alcohol,
who gave me a life worth living. I know how it feels. You gotta get on with your
life. You gotta take care of yourself, because there isn't anybody out there to
do it for you. Take charge of your life, get it under control, learn to like
yourself again. When you do that, someone will come your way.
You now have my advice. I purposely didn't flame you, against my better
judgement, because I saw a soul in need of help. You can choose to either follow
my advice or ignore it completely, but remember this. I was you six months ago.
I honestly felt that all women were incarnate forms of evil, and were put here
to make us miserable. It when you have thoughts like that when you really have
to take a look at yourself from the outside. I did and didn't like what I saw. I
completely revamped what I am, and now I've gotten on with my life, and have
gotten to the point where I'm ready to move into a new relationship. You do get
over the pain of loss; it will always be there somewhere in your mind, but
sooner or later it subsides and stops being the central focus of your life.
Don't believe me? Write to dmcd...@nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Duane, sorry about this
but you know me better than anyone on the net.), and ask him what I was like
when Pitts died. He'll tell you that if I have any brain cells left, it's by
grace of God. Ask him what I'm like now, or better yet, reread what I just
wrote. I see a definate change, don't you? Greif is a natural response to a
loss, but there is a time to let go and move on with your life. She would've
wanted you to, wouldn't she? So, taking or leaving my advice is up to you, but I
can tell you that had I not followed it, I'd probably be to wasted to give it to
you, and to insensate to care if you ever do get your life back together or not.
Women are not attracted to emotional black holes. (Yes, that was shamelessly
stolen from someone here on this group, but I don't remember who. You know who
you are, and will doubtless figure it out.) Once you gain faith in yourself,
notice the change in how people look at you. And if my advice doesn't help,
what's the harm in trying it anyway. I'd rather die trying to make myself a
better person, than die lonely and miserable, knowing that I could have done
something about it. The world is not a conspiracy against you, you are your own
worst enemy. Don't undo yourself, and the world won't try to undo you either.
Michael Simone
msi...@nimitz.mcs.kent.edu
>
>
--
+------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Michael Simone | Smash forehead on keyboard to continue. |
| Muttley, Canis Egocentricus | Illiterate? Write for free help! |
| msi...@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu | My reality check just bounced. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
My views are absolute fact and not to be disputed.
Scott Kramer
>
>
>
> I've been wanting to do this for a while but I always calmed myself
>down. I need to do this.
back to you through email, I decided I want to let the whole newsgroup(s)
read this because of how I can relate in ways to you, yet at the same time
let you know how I feel about this. In addition, before I continue with this
letter, I have to disagree with you on a few things. Also, I am a guy.
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
>I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
>is screwed up. I want love.
I can relate. My mom and dad were divorced when I was 13(I'm 26 now). My mom
was fortunate to see $5 in child support EVERY YEAR. My mom, my brother, and
I were on the welfare system for 2 1/2 yrs. I was abused by a few people growing up.
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
>chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
>stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
>the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
>bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
>knows how to love you. You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
>No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
>a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
>wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
>love means.
Dave, let me say this - you need to be yourself, and NOT what someone else
wants you to be. I agree with the chivalry part, but do you know why a lot of
women are offended by it? Because of how in this society in this day and age,
our society goes to great lengths and all to promote individualism and
materialism. Many women could care less about people, and only be wanting
of themselves and everything else in obtaining money and other things, but
there are a few women out there who care. I think it's a matter of time before
you meet someone, but first things first. I know what it is like to be lonely
and all - I wrote a poem contemplating suicide when I was 17 and VERY LONELY.
Trust me, Dave, I have been there before. My girlfriend, Mandy, considers me
to be a rather sensitive guy and she likes me that way and none other. I
truly think there are gals out there who are looking for sensitive guys and
if that is what you are, then there's got to be someone there for you. As for
what you say about women going after some tanned guy who a big penis and all,
well I can see where that is true and all, but you also have got to remember
something else as well: Society promotes ALSO the idea that it is what is
on the outside that counts - the idea for a guy, if the babe is a "10" and all,
that she is the one for him and for a gal, if the dude is a muscular tanned
guy and all, then he is the one for her. But no, it goes, far, far, far, far,
far, far, far, far, far beyond into infinity beyond that. It's on what is on
the inside that counts and is going to matter. Reason being: the inside of a
person is going to stay with him/her forever. The outside of a person will
change over time. After all, you really don't expect the same woman to look
the same at 20 and at 70? I don't think so in the least. But, the inside
of that woman will be the same roughly at 20 and at 70.
For example, Mandy is overweight big time according to medical standards,
yet I love her for whom she is because of her, not because of this or that.
I could care less. I love her because of her inside, where it counts. But,
do I let the fact that she is 80 lbs. overweight affect the way I think about
her or love her? NOT IN THE LEAST!!!!! And I will admit Dave, that I am not
some tanned stud with a big penis and all that Mandy is looking for. Oh no,
I may have a colorful personality and all, and I am also 30 lbs. overweight.
I am not tanned, but very white. I have also been losing my hair since I was
14, that being over 12 years now. So, I an not an Adonis by any stretch.
Also I have grand mal epilepsy, stuttered for an awful long time until a lot
of years of speech therapy has helped me. I used to have a terrible self
image and it got worse after being molested when I was 16. But after through
years of counseling, my self-image became a lot better.
Despite her and my problems, she and I are EXTREMELY compatible and almost
mirror images of one another.
> I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
>weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
I can see where the co-dependency and the abusiveness have a big role in
something like this.
>But men aren't suppose to cry. They have to be strong 24 hours a day,
>7 days a week.
That's a myth!!! You, I, and everyone else knows it is a myth! I once
believed that myself and trust me, I stored up so much inside of me that it
started to ruin myself mentally speaking. I was a very quiet guy growing up,
though it may not sound like it from how much I have typed, and I don't even know you at all. I am still a very shy guy to this date, as she is also.
Although I may be a shy guy, I still take enjoyment in helping out others in need such as yourself, and no, I am not gay at all.
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
>you don't want me.
> What the fuck is your problem?
I'll tell you what yours is. Your attitude #1. No way in this world are you
EVER going to ever get any dates, let alone be involved in a relationship
and have a gf if you think you can go do whatever yelling screaming whatever.
It's one thing to go and let your frustrations out and all, but if I were a woman and you wer to do that same thing to me, I would think of you as being very
very rude with no sense of respect for me, because if I were hypothetically
a woman you would think of me as a two-faced slut, and I wouldn't want to have
anything to do with you. However, if you claim that you are this such
great guy, then why don't you act like it? I am a great guy and I can act
like it. Also, just ask my girlfriend, Mandy. I would NEVER make the cover
of Playgirl magazine or anything like that cause I don't have the look,
but she'll tell you that I am the sexiest and most attractive guy she has
ever seen and I AM OVERWEIGHT, my friend. So, there blows your idea
of being overweight and not having any one interested in a guy who';s
overweight.
What else is your problem? #2, I think because of your past, that unless
you get counseling, you will never be able to overcome your past, and thus
it will affect you for the rest of your life. I am fully convinced of this
because it is logical to assume that if someone bad has happened to you and
unless something is done to alleviate that specific situation, it will
keep gnawing and gnawing at you until you do something about it.
So I recommend counseling. It is amazing what wonders that can do.
What else is your problem? #3, you ASSUME THAT ALL WOMEN FOR THE MOST PART
ARE THIS WAY. So you think that for the most part, that the vast majority of
women are going to be this way. So be it, if you think that all women are this
way, and you keep believing it, then trust me, you will NEVER meet that person.
A. You must make yourself vulnerable, B. You need to be friends wiht someone
before you can be involved in a relationship. C. And if you do make yourself
and take chances with someone in the future, then you may have an opportunity,
a chance with that person, whoever she may be.
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
>gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
>don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
>up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
> You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
>the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
>to give me a chance.
Wanna know what I think? And how you want to know why you must be lonely for
31 years..... ya know, now I know why you have to be lonely for such a long time.
With your attitude, you will NEVER meet that woman. And I don't even have to
tell you either, I am sure Mandy could tell you, and a lot of happily married
couple could tell you that. Dave, and you are telling everyone to "get lost"
just because they want to get married someday. Ya know, it's a good thing
I am a man instead of a woman, cause I would have slapped you in the face
after what you just got done saying. Dave, I really hate to say this, but
at this pace if you keep it up, you will NEVER be happy in life. And you're
right also, NO ONE DESERVES YOU EITHER... you know why? your attitude
towards women. Shoo, you think no women out there are willing to give you
a chance? You're right, they aren't because of the way you are treating all
the women on here. Sure, there's a number of women out there who I wouldn't
even want to go out with, but there's nice ladies like Mandy, who I would like
to have an opportunity to go out with, cause I consider it an honor more than
anything else. And, ya know what, Dave? I open car doors for Mandy and all,
yes, I am a chivalrous type of guy who believes in chivalry and all, despite
my being OVERWEIGHT and all. Do I let my OVERWEIGHTNESS bother me? No.
But, I know I need to lose weight because of medical reasons and I am doing
something about it.
> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
>this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
>bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
True, guys can be that way. Maybe you weren't one before I read this letter,
but I am convinced of one thing now. I truly don't believe in making judgementseither and all, but if your life is in any way parallel to this letter, then
I have to say this much. I think you are a very desparate guy who needs a lot
of help and counseling. I see it in you. I may not know you at all, and only
have this letter to go on, but I can tell you are a very desparate guy and
unless you do something about it, it's only going to get worse for you.
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>your lack of compassion.
Wrong, buddy. This is one of the most abusive letters I have ever seen
in my entire life. If you don't think this is abusive, then I would be more
than happy to consult wiht my mom who has a M.S. in counseling and I know she
would tell me this sounds like an abusive letter. And this letter IS abusive,
because of NOT only emotional, but mental abuse also in your entire life.
And you don't think for a guy, a compassionate person? Wrong again! Mandy
thinks I am one of the most compassionate people in the whole wide world,
also I am more than willing to talk to a friend when he/she needs someone to
talk to at 3 in the morning, although I may have been in deep sleep. IT may
not be the most wonderful thing, but for a friend or someone who needs help,
I am willing to do so. Dave, if you don't call that compassionate, then I
seriously think you need some help.
> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
>If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
>your gender after all.
I know you were directing this towards the ladies and all, but as a guy,
I am telling you that you are definitely not in the right to go tell these
ladies, despite how they may be, to get lost. I know for myself that
I have rather high standards for what I believe in and all wrt dating and
those types of things and I don't let go of them. However, I would never
go around telling people to get lost, just because they weren't my kind
of gal to date. I would tell her that I wasn't interested, and give my
reasons why I wouldn
't want to date her, but to tell her to "get lost", NEVER. It's rude,
disrespectful, and so on.
Maybe another reason why gals aren't interested in dating you - need to
work on your manners. Now, I am not perfect, but rather far from perfect,
but one thing I do know is this - that women like a guy who has manners
and you surely weren't showing it in this letter. I can only hope your life
is not this way also.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
>Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
>closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
>
>
Trust me Dave, you probably will be flamed quite a lot because of it and
YOUR ATTITUDE. You need to get over this woman of your dreams on go on living
your life. IF all you do is just think, "what if?" and not go on living
realistically, then you will just keep wondering and all, then when SHE is
right in front of you(that being the one who is interested in you), you will
just shoo her off like she was somoene else, then when you finally realize
she was the one, you will regret it dearly, my friend.
Suyre it can be lonely, but you need to start a greater network of friends.
Develop hobbies that you are interested in, or do something that you enjoy,
like model airplanes or whatever. Join clubs, etc. There's got to be something
you enjoy. That way you will go an meet people.
Sorry if I said what I did, but I felt I had to be firm in telling you.
I may not know you, but I am most definitely concerned about your mental
and emotional state right now and if you keep going this way, it's going
to just get worse.
Get help or whatever.
Sincerely,
Scott Kramer
esq...@sage.cc.purdue.edu
Tane' Tachyon
>down. I need to do this.
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
>I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
>is screwed up. I want love.
I'm sorry you're in pain, but personally I got fed up a long time ago
with men who go on about how they're so much better than all the other
men and how women are too stupid and/or evil to appreciate them, and
then when women are of course turned off by this approach, the men
*really* start spewing the insults!
Stop trying to change yourself into whatever *you* think other people
want, and expecting other people to be responsible for solving all
your problems. Be yourself and work on solving your own problems ...
personally I hate therapists, but with the way you talk about abuse
and codependent and so on, you could probably use an impartial person
to talk to about these things.
And no thanks at all for posting a lot of insults against women in
alt.support.big-folks
--
____________________________________________________________________________
| tac...@cats.ucsc.edu \ /__ Big glitter-slob weirdo bisexual |
| tac...@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ / / feminist vegan homeschooling parent |
| tac...@deeptht.armory.com \/ / science fiction computer bum i.n.p.o. |
-------------------------------\/-------------------------------------------
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> I've been wanting to do this for a while but I always calmed myself
> down. I need to do this.
> You women are bitches... <incredibly hateful diatribe deleted>
Feel better, Dave?
I see an asbestos suit in your future... I have just one thing to say
to this shit-rain of self pity: No matter how much you try to assume
the personality that you think women will want, your anger and hostility
will show up like the pestilent soul-cancer it is. Get professional help.
The whole world has been hurt/abused/mistreated. It's not your private
condition. Look around you.
There's a lot you can do to help yourself. Take charge of your life.
Say "fuck you" to the people you perceive as having hurt you by
making yourself a better person.
You've vented your anger and that is a good thing. Now get off your
duff and do something about what's bugging you. You are exhibiting
a text-book case of learned helplessness. It's not easy to overcome,
and in many cases it can't be done alone - but I stress that it *can*
be done.
I urge you to get counseling. The problem is never what's going on
around us or being done "to" us. It's how we're handling it.
I wish you luck.
Toni
Greg Skinner
>I urge you to get counseling. The problem is never what's going on
>around us or being done "to" us. It's how we're handling it.
I don't agree with this completely. For example, if someone is
physically abusing someone else, it's unfair to say that the problem
is (strictly) with the abusee.
--gregbo
nvon...@msuvx1.memst.edu
>
[......]
> My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
> is screwed up. I want love.
Ok, you just described me, and probably half the other people on this net.
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
> chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
> stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
> the kind of person you said you wanted.
I admire a man who can just be himself. I personally have never asked a
man to change for me. If there is something about himself that bothers
him, then I try to support his needs to change.
> I am and you don't want it. You lying bitches. You don't want someone
> sensitive.
Some do...are we all supposed to be the same? I think sensitive men
are attractive.
> You don't want someone who really knows how to love you.
Yes, we do.
> You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
A little vulnerability is extremely attractive.
> No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
> a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
> wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
> love means.
Thanks for telling me who and what I am. You have enough experience to
speak collectively?
> I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
> weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
> But men aren't suppose to cry.
I know more than one man who has cried in front of me. It made me feel
closer to him.
> They have to be strong 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Ask any woman who is raising children alone if she doesn't have to do the
same.
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
> 300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
> already you decide that I ain't worth the time.
The times I've lost weight, I did it for myself. The times I gained
weight, I did it because I chose to indulge myself.
> I'm a great guy. I can
> furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
> a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
> Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
> can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
> you don't want me.
You've watched too many Michael Douglas movies maybe?
> What the fuck is your problem?
I know what my problems are...I'm working on them.
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
> gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
> don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
> up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
Who deserves what? You get what you go after, and you change the things
in your life that get in the way. (I said *things*, not people).
> You wanna get married? Fuck you!
No. Been there, done that, not again.
> I'd be the best husband and father in the world.
Maybe, but you're going to have to learn how to make yourself happy first.
I thought I would be the best wife and mother in the world. It doesn't
just happen, you know. Maybe you've figured out by now that I'm
divorced and raised children alone. I thought just loving them is
enough. It's not. Get rid of all that baggage you're carrying around...
the lousy childhood. It only gets in the way. I've found that out almost
too late.
.
> Problem is, it won't
> happen because none of you bitches are willing to give me a chance.
It's our responsibility to make the above happen for you? What are you
willing to do? Just show up? It doesn't work that way.
> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
> this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
> bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
Becoming an asshole won't get you what you want. All those assholes
may have all the women they want, but they have nothing to offer a woman.
Those relationships don't last. If you just want to get laid all the
time, fine...that may work for you. Do you think a woman who only
wants an abusive relationship would be good for you? What kind of
woman do YOU find attractive? The kind that nobody can have?
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
> abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
> your lack of compassion.
You are not the only one feeling a lack of compassion. How can you blame
society? Why don't you deal with the issues that have caused you this pain?
> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
> If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
> your gender after all.
>
Gender has nothing to do with it.
> Dave
>
Good luck, Dave. You can work through this. I have. I made my own
happiness. Believe it or not, some have found it attractive. I don't
expect or want all men to fall all over me. You are not going to be
attractive to everyone. It just doesn't work that way.
>
> And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
> Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
> closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
>
I could offer you what my life has been. You wouldn't want that either.
I try not to beat anyone over the head with it. It makes people want
to run away. What if someone told you they would never marry you because
you had children or that they wouldn't marry you because you couldn't
give them children? Just be patient...things will change. Get rid of
that anger...or use it to make some positive changes in your life.
Nancy
**************************************************************************
The pandas are skating on very thin ice.
"World Party"
Charles R. Martin
Nancy on many points here, her post and the others I've seen so far on
this thread strike me a little like wrapping gauze on someone's slit
wrists while saying "No wonder you wanted to kill yourself you miserable
little shit. Straighten up and be a *man* for God's sake."
Now, having said all that: David: Straighten up and be a man for God's
sake. Fat guys get married all the time. (Else I wouldn't be here.)
If you are sincerely willing to allow yourself to change the real things
about yourself -- personality, and so on -- you can change into someone
who is a happy person. Then you won't even CARE if you don't have A
Woman.
Figure it out. Do you want to be a miserable lonely geek or are your
willing to make a change? Get back to us.
--
Charles R. Martin/(Charlie)/mar...@cs.unc.edu/Dept. of Computer Science/CB
#3175 UNC-CH/Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3175/3611 University Dr #13M/Durham, NC
27707/(919) 419 1754/So draw the sword. It stands in stone, awaiting mortal
touch. .... It is your right. We all are Uther's children thus./
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> In article <yV5V7B...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> to...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Ton
> >I urge you to get counseling. The problem is never what's going on
> >around us or being done "to" us. It's how we're handling it.
>
> I don't agree with this completely. For example, if someone is
> physically abusing someone else, it's unfair to say that the problem
> is (strictly) with the abusee.
>
> --gregbo
Please don't confuse responsibility with blame. I am not blaming Dave
for the abuse or alleged abuse he has received. I am holding him
responsible for not doing something about it. It is obviously not
"strictly" the problem of the abusee. Clearly the abuser has a hand in
it.
While I am not of the opinion that people are always to blame for the
state of their lives, it is my opinion that they are *responsible* for
their lives. Dave's plight is, sadly, not unusual. His choice of
response to his environment is his own. There are many ways of handling
hurtful situations. One of them is to lash out at the whole world and
alienate even those who would help us.
There are healthier, more proactive alternatives. Feeling sorry for
Dave is not going to help him. He is clearly in need of help, but not
in need of pity. What he needs is to be empowered, to be shown that he
is *not* and has never been at the mercy of the world. That is a
defeatist attitude which will get him exactly where he is now.
I stand by my statement that Dave is responsible for his life. He
can choose to take over the helm, or he can abdicate control and
continue on his self-destructive course. Dave should seek counseling
immediately.
Toni
A.P.K.
> In article <edsall.7...@pv7411.vincent.iastate.edu>, eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) writes:
>>
> [......]
>
>> abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>> your lack of compassion.
>
> You are not the only one feeling a lack of compassion. How can you blame
> society? Why don't you deal with the issues that have caused you this pain?
Hmm... this is the ONLY part of the conversation I wish to touch.
I lived in Europe for eight years while in the army, not that THAT
is too much of a credential but... When I moved back to the ole
homefront, I found that I was no longer happy here. Why? My first
few years in Europe were no fun at all. "I'm not afraid of dying,
I've been to hell." (I don't know who once said that.) Once I
started to figure out the new society I was living in, and began to
understand the expectations, desires, and motivations of people
within that society, I started to understand "why" some things were
as they were. Once I started to adopt those societal customs and
standards, I began to fit in, and ultimately became happy (and
married). Enter a major surgery or three, a minor disability, and
it was time to leave the service (and Europe, where I'd planned to
live out my life). Now I'm back. I've adapted back into this
society as best I could. It cost me my marriage, my ex couldn't
cope. (No, no kids, or I'd probably be unhappily married, family
values and all that.) Would I say that I'm happy again, finally?
No, not really. I _am_ as contented as I'm going to be for quite
a while, probably, though. Things will get better again, slowly,
once I graduate, get a real job, get a new life, get another house
of my own, instead of a one-room cave (I've owned three houses so
far, and to live in an efficiency is....).
Well, the real question here is, can we blame society? I would
have to say... yes, to some degree. My ex was no beauty queen, and
she was what would be considered extravagantly overweight here in
the U.S. It is, to some degree, a detriment to be even 30-40 lbs
overweight here. Just look at the images that TV throws at us.
Someone said to watch TV and see what the real world is like? I
don't think so. Go out in the real world (if you can afford it)
and see what the real world is like. That's another thing. To do
ANYTHING requires the finances to do so. Even to go to the beach,
or the mall, or the museum, requires busfare or gas money. This
society (at least the town I'm living in) offers three choices of
things to do for nightlife. Go out to eat, go to movies, or go
out and get drunk. Otherwise, it's sit at home on your butt and
watch TV, be it with someone or alone (or work your butt off on
schoolwork, personal projects, etc...) At least, those are the
"inexpensive" options available, other than taking off and
going somewhere else entirely. All dications of who we are and
what we do ... by society.
Then, there's the mindset. Living in a college town, there aren't
many women my own age around who aren't married, and of the few that
are around, I've never really hit it off well with them. But, I'm
fortunate. I only look 23-24. I have lots of women interested in
me ... for a little while. Having "grown up" in Europe, I don't
mind dating women 5-10 years younger than me. (In fact, I prefer
it. My ex-wife was once mistaken as my mother, she looked just a
little old for her age, and I obviously look young for my age.)
Well, that's all nice, I can date women who I at least look appropriate
with (in this society), right? Not so. In this society, they
find out my real age, and I'm history. Or they find out my marital
status, and I'm history. Why? Because society dictates that they
aren't supposed to be dating people somewhat older. That "good little
girl" could never take me home to meet daddy (no matter how evil
she may really be). Oh yeah, and since I'm older and divorced, I'm
automatically lying through my teeth just to try to get someone in
bed with me. (We'll completely ignore that I'm always upfront and
honest about my age and marital status, since in this society, ALL
divorced and/or separated guys are just lying and trying to score.)
I could list LOTS of other examples, as well, but those are the most
prevalent that I've had to deal with in the recent past. I would
seriously have to disagree with the idea that society forces no
limits and boundaries on such things as people's ideals and standards.
As to whether it's right or wrong or not, that's up to people to
decide individually maybe to some degree (but then the TV example
says that we're going to conform to whatever we're told to). Whether
this can be viewed as "fucked up" or not... I'd have to say it's
situational. To be shot down on the mere basis of my age (31) when
asking people out aged 21-24 is hardly right. To be ignored
completely by someone who was VERY interested in me just before
she found out that I was 31 is hardly right. Maybe since society
has put the idea in their minds that it IS right to ignore someone
because of their age, some people will feel that it really IS right.
But where did they get that idea? Were they borne with it? Hardly.
I'm not even bitter about it anymore, I've simply stopped caring at
all and learned to keep myself as busy and content as I can be, and
to stop relying on anyone at all other than myself. I almost hate
to say it, but I don't need anyone anymore, nor do I want anyone
anymore. (I've blown 4 possible chances of interested women this
semester alone, due to apathy.) I guess my primary contention
here is that society DOES have a lot to do with it, regardless of
what anyone might wish to think.
Just my handful of change here. I'm not trying to shoot anyone
down, or stick up for anyone (who writes bitter, hateful postings).
Take it for what you feel it's worth.
Jim
David Elliott
One thing I find interesting in this discussion is the idea that Dave's
childhood plays a prominent role in his current situation.
Like Dave, I have physical aspects that are out of style for
heterosexual men these days (i.e., fat, bald, not tall) and I'm a
computer geek, but unlike Dave my parents were/are great, and I had
lots of friends as a child.
Yet, the fact is, I date rarely, end up "friends" with all of the women
I date, and haven't made love to a woman in over 10 years. I find a
lot of the same things that Dave finds.
Now, I don't think that women are the whole problem, though I have run
into some interesting situations. I mentioned "computer geek" as a
negative above, because I have heard or read women saying specifically
that they aren't interested in men that work with computers. I've also
had a lot of women who were "not looking for a man" all of a sudden
find men not long after I asked them out. It's weird to listen to a
single woman who is "looking for a real man", but is busy if I ask her
out.
In other words, there damned well are women (and men) who find looks
and other social properties to be important. Anyone who says otherwise
is kidding themselves.
The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
--
David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
Andrew M Ross
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
>you don't want me.
> What the fuck is your problem?
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
>gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
>don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
>up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
> You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
>the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
>to give me a chance.
Well, you certainly know how to present yourself well....I guess those
fluffyheaded gals just don't recognize real sensitivity.
Andrew Ross Until people grow up, they have no idea what's cool.
Greg Skinner
>Please don't confuse responsibility with blame. I am not blaming Dave
>for the abuse or alleged abuse he has received. I am holding him
>responsible for not doing something about it. It is obviously not
>"strictly" the problem of the abusee. Clearly the abuser has a hand in
>it.
Actually, I was not thinking of Dave when I wrote this message. I was
writing in general terms. I couldn't even begin to speculate on what
could have caused him to write this (so I won't).
>I stand by my statement that Dave is responsible for his life. He
>can choose to take over the helm, or he can abdicate control and
>continue on his self-destructive course. Dave should seek counseling
>immediately.
Hmmm. Well, again, in general terms, it is one thing to need help and
another to allow yourself to receive it. I have known people who've
been abused who refused counseling because they were still going
through the angry phase. In those situations I've decided the best
thing to do is to let them be however they are until they are ready to
receive help.
--gregbo
Toni Parra-Carrasco
<several paragraphs deleted>
> The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
> can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
> of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
> not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
> deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
> --
> David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
Quite simply because the minute he gets to one of these (theoretical)
places, his blatant misogyny will shine right through and he'll scare
away all the women who can be interested in him. He has to deal with
his problems *first*.
Another reason that comes to mind is because to my knowledge there
isn't any specific place where "nice" women go, that bitches don't.
There is no "Nice Ladies Here - It Doesn't Matter if You're Fat/
Geeky/Ugly" Club.
Good, sensitive women who can see past physical appearances are
everywhere. The reason Dave can't find one is becuase he doesn't
believe they're out there.
There is no blinder man than he who will not see.
Toni
Andrew M Ross
>While I am not of the opinion that people are always to blame for the
>state of their lives, it is my opinion that they are *responsible* for
>their lives. Dave's plight is, sadly, not unusual. His choice of
>response to his environment is his own. There are many ways of handling
>hurtful situations. One of them is to lash out at the whole world and
>alienate even those who would help us.
>
>There are healthier, more proactive alternatives. Feeling sorry for
>Dave is not going to help him. He is clearly in need of help, but not
>in need of pity. What he needs is to be empowered, to be shown that he
>is *not* and has never been at the mercy of the world. That is a
>defeatist attitude which will get him exactly where he is now.
>
>I stand by my statement that Dave is responsible for his life. He
>can choose to take over the helm, or he can abdicate control and
>continue on his self-destructive course. Dave should seek counseling
>immediately.
Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek counseling" and
walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go to paid prostitutes. It's
also a slap in the face and a brutal display of callousness in many situations.
Perhaps people are using the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient way
of being shallow fair weather friends.
Last time I had an emotional crisis, several "friends" dropped me like a hot
potato, telling me they'd be back after I went through "counseling" (like Dave,
I'd just lost a SO). I needed someone to confirm that I was a worthwhile
person, and instead they all told me that nobody but a paid counsellor would
bother paying attention to me. It was like having all supports ripped from my
dwelling at once. Eventually, I found new friends.
If someone close to you seems to need help, by all means recommend
professional help if you think that's what they need. But that is no substitute
for being there yourself as someone who they can talk to because you care, not
because it's your job.
I'm not saying we all have a duty in Dave's case--we don't even know who he
is, and he hasn't asked anyone to help him--just give it some thought before
you kick people to the counselor.
Andrew Ross Help stamp out mental illness, or I'll kill you!
>
>Toni
>
>
ag...@ac.dal.ca
> can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
> of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
> not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
> deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
> --
> David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
I'm sorry but I couldn't resist...Maybe what you Daves need to do is
change your name?! :)
But seriously, there are constant posts, on alt.romance at least,
suggesting how to meet new people. You should start reading more
carefully! p.s. Being yourself is the first step to meeting
people. You're off to a good start.
ag...@ac.dal.ca
first line below (we Daves...).
Darn, I've never been good at telling jokes!
In article <dceCAD...@netcom.com>, d...@netcom.com (David Elliott) writes:
David M Edsall
>d...@netcom.com (David Elliott) writes:
><several paragraphs deleted>
>> The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
>> can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
>> of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
>> not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
>> deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
>> --
>> David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
>Quite simply because the minute he gets to one of these (theoretical)
>places, his blatant misogyny will shine right through and he'll scare
>away all the women who can be interested in him. He has to deal with
>his problems *first*.
I'm dealing with my problems. Thing is, I have a few more to go.
It would be nice to find someone who is willing to understand this.
As far as I can tell, she doesn't exist. If you want to call me a woman-hater,
fine. So be it. I really don't think I could feel any more pain.
I am willing to love and have done so for lots of friends. I want something
more and she doesn't seem to be out there. I don't HATE women. I am frustrated
with what I see and what I feel. If you have any advice, feel free. Otherwise,
don't bother. Please,please don't try and analyse without knowing me.
>Good, sensitive women who can see past physical appearances are
>everywhere. The reason Dave can't find one is becuase he doesn't
>believe they're out there.
Exactement!!! I USED to. But not any more ( Stolen from Matt Decker,
Doomsday Machine ).
>There is no blinder man than he who will not see.
What is there to see? I've seen waht I have described. Unless you or
others can tell me where the non-bitch fairy kingdom is, I choose not
to see anymore. It is really really disillusioning. It is hard as hell to
have hope for women when they don't give one any reason to do so.
Dave
nvon...@msuvx1.memst.edu
> nvon...@msuvx1.memst.edu writes:
>> In article <edsall.7...@pv7411.vincent.iastate.edu>, eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) writes:
>>>
>> [......]
>>
>>> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>>> abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>>> your lack of compassion.
>>
>> You are not the only one feeling a lack of compassion. How can you blame
>> society? Why don't you deal with the issues that have caused you this pain?
>
> Hmm... this is the ONLY part of the conversation I wish to touch.
>
>
> have to say... yes, to some degree. My ex was no beauty queen, and
> she was what would be considered extravagantly overweight here in
> the U.S. It is, to some degree, a detriment to be even 30-40 lbs
> overweight here. Just look at the images that TV throws at us.
> Someone said to watch TV and see what the real world is like? I
> don't think so. Go out in the real world (if you can afford it)
> and see what the real world is like. That's another thing. To do
> ANYTHING requires the finances to do so. Even to go to the beach,
> or the mall, or the museum, requires busfare or gas money. This
> society (at least the town I'm living in) offers three choices of
> things to do for nightlife. Go out to eat, go to movies, or go
> out and get drunk. Otherwise, it's sit at home on your butt and
> watch TV, be it with someone or alone (or work your butt off on
> schoolwork, personal projects, etc...) At least, those are the
> "inexpensive" options available, other than taking off and
> going somewhere else entirely. All dications of who we are and
> what we do ... by society.
>
see on TV, then society really is in a lot of trouble. The game is
to sell. If it looks *pretty*, we want it.
> I guess my primary contention
> here is that society DOES have a lot to do with it, regardless of
> what anyone might wish to think.
>
> Just my handful of change here. I'm not trying to shoot anyone
> down, or stick up for anyone (who writes bitter, hateful postings).
> Take it for what you feel it's worth.
>
> Jim
>
So who is society and who can change it? Us. It will take a long time
to change but it can be done. And where does it start? With each
person. Personally I think there are many people who want to see a
change. We may not see the changes we want in our lifetime but it has
to start somewhere. I think the more exposure you have to other people,
the more likely you are to find those who want the same things you want.
I understand the points you made and have been effected by some of the
issues you talked about. You are right. But do we have to accept all
that when as a group we can say "this is all a lot of bunk"?
My point with David was he spoke collectively to women, and he scapegoated
society for his bitterness. That's not going to change anything.
Every woman in the world did not reject him. If he is self-conscious
of his looks and he thinks that is why women don't want to go out with
him, then he could try counting fat grams and a walking program. It's not
that hard to do. Then he can evaluate his situation from a new perspective.
Like Charlie said he may find that he is so happy with himself, having
realized that he has the power to make a change, that it won't matter if he
has a woman or not.
David Elliott
> Well, you certainly know how to present yourself well....I guess those
>fluffyheaded gals just don't recognize real sensitivity.
You don't know that Dave is going around saying these things to people
he meets, and in fact he probably isn't. He has given us a glimpse of
his inner feelings on one day of his life.
When you give this guy a hard time, you might want to consider the
psychology of the net. There are people who post things to the net
that they would never say to people in person. The net can be an
extension of one's private space.
Can you honestly say you've never said anything in the privacy of your
own home that you wouldn't want people to hear you say in a grocery
store? Are you so perfect that all of your thoughts are saintly? If
so, then I bow to your holy perfection. If not, give the guy a break.
Colette Marine
> What is there to see? I've seen waht I have described. Unless you or
>others can tell me where the non-bitch fairy kingdom is, I choose not
>to see anymore. It is really really disillusioning. It is hard as hell to
>have hope for women when they don't give one any reason to do so.
You know, I've been trying to figure out what it is about this thread
that bothers me so much. Now I think I've put my finger on it.
Dave, you do everyone a great disservice when you paint all women with
such broad and nasty strokes. Did it ever occur to you that women have
the same problem? Did it ever occur to you that it's even *less*
acceptable for a woman to have a weight problem? Did it ever occur to
you that millions of women cry, get angry, lash out, and give up on
life because *men* refuse to see *their* beauty through the extra
weight?
Your point *would* be well-taken if it were framed within a discussion
of our cultural norms for both genders, not a discussion of how all
women are bitches. You only hurt your cause with such misogyny. Instead
of feeling the sympathy that I probably could have felt for you, all I
feel is anger and revulsion. If you present that sort of face in
Real Life (tm), you'll only drive women away.
colette
--
Colette D. Marine |c...@nwu.edu
Inst.for the Learning Sciences|or
Northwestern University |mar...@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it
A.P.K.
> see on TV, then society really is in a lot of trouble. The game is
> to sell. If it looks *pretty*, we want it.
Hmm... I'd have to take a step back on this one, and plead "the
chicken or the egg?" problem. In the aforementioned example, we
can obviously blame the media. But, if it's merely the media's
job to 'sell', and what sells is dictated by societal standards...
Yeah, I'm going to have to stick with the chicken or the egg,
without a LOT of research which I don't have the time for right
now. Any graduate students looking for a project? There it is!
>
>> I guess my primary contention
>> here is that society DOES have a lot to do with it, regardless of
>> what anyone might wish to think.
>>
>> Just my handful of change here. I'm not trying to shoot anyone
>> down, or stick up for anyone (who writes bitter, hateful postings).
>> Take it for what you feel it's worth.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> So who is society and who can change it? Us. It will take a long time
> to change but it can be done. And where does it start? With each
> person. Personally I think there are many people who want to see a
> change. We may not see the changes we want in our lifetime but it has
> to start somewhere. I think the more exposure you have to other people,
> the more likely you are to find those who want the same things you want.
> I understand the points you made and have been effected by some of the
> issues you talked about. You are right. But do we have to accept all
> that when as a group we can say "this is all a lot of bunk"?
I agree, except for one problem. People would seemingly rather conform
to those societal standards than break down the barriers. I'm not
exactly the world's greatest nice-guy, but I can say that I honestly
do my best in every situation that presents itself, to the best of
my ability. If everyone did that, the world would be a much better
place. Without trying to sound pessimistic, I really don't see that
happening all too much. It's far to easy for someone to be concerned
about "me" than to be concerned about "society".
>
> My point with David was he spoke collectively to women, and he scapegoated
> society for his bitterness. That's not going to change anything.
Yes, he did, and it was wrong. However, it was also probably correct
to some degree, although saying it in the fashion he did tends to
compound the problem. How? By causing a negative stereotype for
all to observe, that being that "older people who are alone are
bitter and frustrated, blame it on society, and take it out on
anyone who gets near them." Perpetuating such stuff doesn't help
things. He has some problems that he needs to work out, much as
I did. Fortunately, I never opened up on the world when I was
feeling especially low (except in alt.bitterness, where it was
what the group was there for). And I hope that if he does manage
to work out those problems, he won't have to settle for the
compromise that I have, although I'm considering my compromise
to be strictly short-termed, until I take care of a few things
(like graduating, getting a job, etc...)
> Every woman in the world did not reject him. If he is self-conscious
> of his looks and he thinks that is why women don't want to go out with
> him, then he could try counting fat grams and a walking program. It's not
> that hard to do. Then he can evaluate his situation from a new perspective.
> Like Charlie said he may find that he is so happy with himself, having
> realized that he has the power to make a change, that it won't matter if he
> has a woman or not.
Yeap, I can agree with that. And I'd like to believe that society
has the ability to change, too. Sorry if I'm a bit pessimistic
about it, but I really can't see it happening. There remains the
problem of those who have (money, looks, name-your-favourite-power),
and so long as those people are free to use that power over others
and the easiest method of dealing with them by society at large is
to adapt and accept, I'd have to say that society will take the
easy way out and merely accept things rather than changing (as a
whole). No, this isn't a cry for revolt and anarchy (to those who
would like to use it as an argument for such), just the way I
see society, at least in the little corner of it where I'm at.
Jim
P.S. I DO believe that society has the ability to change, just not
necessarily the desire.
HMSC Defiant
: You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
: 300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
: already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
: furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
: a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
: Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
: can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
: you don't want me.
: What the fuck is your problem?
: Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
: gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
: don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
: up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
: You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
: the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
: to give me a chance.
i
OK, one from the bitch corner.
This sounded a lot like me a few years ago. I think I was even
31 at the time for that matter. I think I substituted long willowy legs gs
for the Holmesian. Then I started to look around. And what did I see? ?
I saw all kinds of pudgy female fingers with wedding sets on them. I saw
fat women with marriages lasting years. at
So, I figure, maybe it's something else. Maybe it's more the
"bitch, slob" part of the fat bitchy slob that I used to be. Now, I'm
just a messy fat woman with sporadic grooming habits who sometimes
gets in a foul temper (like now). But I used to be a real classic
fat slob. Sorry I let the side down, but there it is (was?).
And furthermore, I have gone out with men in whom I wasn't
particularly interested in building a life with. And I led them to
believe that I was more interested than I actually was. I remember
one had this boffo car.... And, ya know what?, the same's been done
to me. It's all part of the Great Adventure. Big fucking deal. It's
all in the past.
But the part I couldn't figure out was that if I said I wanted a
man. And I think I did say that... Why was I walking around being a
fat bitchy slob? Did I really think that I was soooo wonderful under-
neath that I needed this wretched exterior to help weed all but the
most nobel and true? Or was a like the friend of m (the lady with the
viper swallowing tag line earlier in this thread) who had narrowed the
field to an impossible state? Not quite because I seemed to miss the
romantic bits... I didn't even twig to the romance between the Harrison
Ford character and the Sean Young character in Blade Runner (my fave
movie) until the very end. Romance was something other people did, like
other people play bridge or curl and I don't.
And it came to pass that someone became attracted to me and decided
to persist. This didn't work out - not because I'm a bitch and he's a
creep. (I don't really think that of either of us - though some might)
but because I'm me and he's him (grammar??) This whole thing was rather
traumatic and I went to therapy and the therapist thought that I should
seek a partner. So, I've been doing somethings along those lines. *But*
I keep putting it off and I keep "forgetting" to do the things.... The
kicker came on the way home in the car tonight. I thought "Now, Jen, when
you look back on this you're going to want to know that you thouroughly
invesitgated this partner thing, that you really went all out and gave it
your best shot... Huh? Why should I? Fuck it. I`m just not doing it any-
more. The guys I think about romatically right now all have at least one
of the following characteristics... married or gay or far, far, away. Of
all the marriages/relationships I know there is only one of which I say
'Gosh, that would be a neat relationship to be in.' And I think that is
only because I admire both of these people as individuals (and I could
never get there). All the others look like too much damn work and pain
for too little return. I have friends who give me support and affection.
I am quite adept at looking after myself. The truth is I don't want a
partner. Sure, I'd love to split the mortgage, have someone to help me
fight off a housebreaker and share duties like staying home for the
phone company; but beyond that, forget it.
Back to the days of: "No man will have me because I'm fat...":
I would never have looked at a fat man. I have told this group before
thatI went through a period when I was known in a certain circle as
"Jail Bait" and yes, something traumatic did happen and no, I didn't
get help on it. Well, gosh, I woulda got in trouble because I was
skipping school at the time. The pounds came on from that time on.
I've lost, gotten the attention and then gone running back to safe
haven. Now, if I had respondde to the romantic advances of a fat guy
then I would have been admitting to myself that fat is not the effective
barrier I wanted it to be. I would have weakened my own defense.
Bitches are human too (well, not the four legged ones....(-: )
Jen js...@emr.ca
1
: Dave
ps...@acad3.alaska.edu
> I've been wanting to do this for a while but I always calmed myself
>down. I need to do this.
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
>I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
>is screwed up. I want love.
Forgive me for doing this to you, but maybe it'll do some good:
Quit whining, you stupid ass... The only person responsible for you is you,
not your mother, your father, or the women you think are "bitches."
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
>chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
>stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
>the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
>bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
>knows how to love you. You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
>No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
>a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
>wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
>love means.
Quit doing what you "thought you should be doing" and be yourself, for
Christs sake. Sure, there may be women out there who meet that description
(God knows I dated some of them.) You want to meet someone, quit trying! It
will happen!
> I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
>weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
>But men aren't suppose to cry. They have to be strong 24 hours a day,
>7 days a week.
Bullshit. If you could be, you would you whining ass! Or is it just too much
fucking effort to take responsibility for your actions?
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
>you don't want me.
Gee. I should feel sorry for you, 'cause you feel so fucking sorry for your
self? Hah! I know I weigh in over 350. If there's fault, it's mine; not
someone elses. Am I doing something about it? Yes, but not as much as I
should be! Instead of carping like a pathetic loser, do something about it!
Go to the Gym! Swim some laps! But ditch the pop-psych attitude that you're
not responsible for your self!
> What the fuck is your problem?
There problem? No self respecting person would put up with your shit!
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
>gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
>don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
>up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
Try it for once! It worked wonders for me! Even as we speak, the most
wonderful woman in the world (from my point of view, at any rate!) is in love
with me, as I am with her.
As far as being a nice guy? Hah! Try cutting the whining, and the mouth.
> You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
>the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
>to give me a chance.
That's gotta be the first positive thing you've said about yourself in this
entire message. Maybe there's hope for you yet....
> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
>this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
>bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>your lack of compassion.
> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
>If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
>your gender after all.
Break the chains, asshole. You're a slave to the notion that someone else is
responsible for your problems. You want to love someone? Learn to love your
self. Can't see the way clear to doing that yet? Try some change. Do
something about it. Go for a walk. Do some push ups. Instead of pissing and
moaning, get off your ass!
Ray
PS - I don't hate you, or even pity you. And if you hate me for these words?
Good. Go work out, use the rage, and in a year or so, kick my f--k--g
ass!
Maybe it will help you understand that I see in you a lot of what I once
saw in myself. Get rid of it, the only person you're hurting is you.
/=============================================================================\
| Ray Denison | No (*smart_ass*) /*smart_ass*/ //smart_ass |
| PS...@ACAD2.ALASKA.EDU | |
| || ACAD3.ALASKA.EDU | #define STD_DISCLAIMER "My words. My ass. Sue me." |
\=============================================================================/
Charles R. Martin
Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek
counseling" and walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go
to paid prostitutes. It's also a slap in the face and a brutal
display of callousness in many situations. Perhaps people are using
the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient way of being
shallow fair weather friends.
Send out for a clue, man. David dropped in with yet another posting of
the "The botches don't like me because I'm not pretty" sort (see Wright,
Ed). I've got a fair amount of sympathy for him, believe it or not, but
I'm also far too aware from earlier avatars of Edism that the usual
sufferer (a) has a much more basic problem than their appearance, and
(b) will do anything I mean ANYTHING to avoid dealing with it.
News flash: in many many cases, overweight *can* be dealt with; in the
last couple of years there have at last been studies done to begin and
understand the *real* physiological basis of overweight. That doesn't
mean David is physiologically capable of becoming a Greek God, but I
betcha losing 20 pounds that stayed gone would do great things for him.
Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
Third news flash: the light bulb has gotta REALLY WANT TO CHANGE.
As I said before: David, if you've really hit bottom -- if you really
believe that life as it stands right now is so painful you don't believe
it's livable as it is -- then let us, or me, know. Some of us have been
through it; we may have something useful to tell you. (You could read
the _Rewriting your Life_ thread if you want to see some of my thoughts
on it, or I'll mail you a transcript of it as it stands on request.)
John Altinbay
>I would like to point out, somewhat testily, that while I agree with
>Nancy on many points here, her post and the others I've seen so far on
>this thread strike me a little like wrapping gauze on someone's slit
>wrists while saying "No wonder you wanted to kill yourself you miserable
>little shit. Straighten up and be a *man* for God's sake."
>
I haven't read all the responses yet, but those I have seen, I found
to be no-nonsense, but *very* supportive. They haven't been flames,
and they have been full of great insight and suggestions.
A big bravo to this group and the responders in this thread for
the great posts!
--
John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com
===============================================================
There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me
My life is worth the living, I don't need to see the end.
John Altinbay
>
>In other words, there damned well are women (and men) who find looks
>and other social properties to be important. Anyone who says otherwise
>is kidding themselves.
>
You bet there are. In fact, there are *many* such women. Was it stated
or implied by the responses that there aren't?
>The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
>can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
>of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
>not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
>deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
>
The reason therpay is suggested is that there isn't much hope for
making a solid and lasting relationship with another person until
you have a solid and lasting relationship with yourself. David
has told us that he is a victim of child abuse. His posting
shows that he has a lot of issues to work out. Even if he met a
woman who can love him for his strengths, he will have a hard
time making the relationship work.
--
>David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
ag...@ac.dal.ca
[talking about blowing off your friends and shipping them to a counsellor]
Definitely friends should not desert each other and pawn off friends'
problems to an outsider. I think people suggest that in the
recognition that a person's problems may be deep enough or serious
enough that they deserve or require professional attention, not just
a few late night bitch sessions over a beer. To get over a SO,
getting it off your chest will probably suffice. To deal with 31
years of an abusive family and no self-esteem -- now that's a horse
of a different colour. You would be a bad friend NOT to suggest
professional help. This is how I see this whole thing, anyway.
Jerry Williamson
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
> I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
> is screwed up. I want love.
Let's stop right there. Aside from all the rage that follows, you sir
need some big time serious counseling and some deprogramming before you
can even consider anything remotely possible with a MOTOS. You gotta
get yourself healed first from the scars from your childhood.
Without going into a whole lotta detail you sound like someone hauntingly
familiar, although I probably do not even know you. You should give some
serious consideration to talking with a professional counselor or a
psychiatrist to get fixed what is broke, namely you. You also may
want to consider Al-Anon or Adult Children of Alcoholics support
groups in your local area. It sounds to me that even if alcohol was not
present (96% of ALL abusive households involve either alcohol or
drug abuse) you still need some help.
The newsgroup dist will remain as-is since there may be others like
you out there who need to hear this except for soc.singles (deleted).
Flame me at will but we have a fellow soldier here who was badly wounded
before he even made it to the battlefield and needs some help.
If you really are 300 lbs. and are 31 I would not count on living more than
15 years anyway since you have a better than 70% chance of having a
heart attack and NOT surviving it. You need to get some help from
a nutritionist or something because your health is in serious danger at
that weight and needs immediate attention.
I was going to comment on all the caustic, inflammatory stuff you heaped
on the fairer sex, however there is no advice I can give you here since the
rage and anger that has been brewing all along will find its way out.
God help your kids or anyone you marry when it does. You have some
serious issues with your father to get resolved and from all the
pain, fear, and emotional problems you are trying to handle, no
unqualified person as much as she could possibly love you is in
any position to help you and would probably be at risk herself.
I was engaged to a female version of you (she was not 300 lbs. and
the signs were more subtle, but present) and my heart goes out to
you since the systematic abuse she endured made my blood run cold
when I got some of the gory details of what she endured as you must
have as well.
There is nothing sadder than a story like yours and it makes me angry
every time I hear about someone who has to live and survive a situation
like yours. Still, some do and some even are able to 'break the cycle'
and live pretty-much normal lives and raise their kids without using
them for medical experiments....
Right now you have your work cut out for you. Forget any advice
regarding romance, how to treat women, etc. You are (best case)
a minimum of several years away with therapy and counseling before even
being ready for that.
I'll keep you in my long list of requests for fresh troops and supplies
to that Almighty General in the Sky (aka God).
[sorry couldn't resist -- got a new VCR yesterday and watched Patton....]
Some days one has to wonder.....
Amy Grant's 'Heart in Motion' CD has a track called Ask Me (if I think
there's a God up in the heavens) which is about a girlfriend of hers
who suffered through years of sexual abuse who miraculously grew into
a whole human being and managed to survive.
It is possible that God can make all things new again for you but your
first step is to take a step backwards and thank God you are alive first
and start learning how to love and live with yourself. Know that you are NOT alone
and that there are others like you who also are hurting.
Nothing any of us could possibly say here is going to make it better
for you in the short term and my sorrows for what you are still enduring
now.
Hang in there as best as you possibly can.
Over and out...
--
*************************************************************************
* Jerry Williamson @ Advanced Micro Devices | "It is logical. The needs *
* jerry.wi...@amd.com | of the many outweigh *
* | the needs of the few -- *
* | or the one." --Spock *
*************************************************************************
Thomas Beagle
>than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
doctor to help them make sense of the world?
This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
--
Thomas Beagle | tho...@datamark.co.nz Work:64 4 2338186 Home:64 4 4993832
Technical Writer | Love is a state of mind in which loneliness
Wellington, NZ | overcomes reasoned thought.
Robert Richardson
Dave, I will be short and blunt here.
This is NOT a flame.
I will NOT show you any pity--that's what you least need right now.
You need to regain control of your life. You seem to have been screwed up
from the start for reasons that are not your own fault. A good way to
start you on the path to getting past your anger about the past (and maybe
even getting your weight down, since you obviously don't like it) is to
get professional help from a psychologist.
Writing abusive, overgeneralizing letters about women will only make you
feel better in the short run--you have to gain control over your life to
feel better in the long run.
Peace and wonderfulness,
--
Robert Richardson "If the human brain were so simple that we could
CWRU Med, 1994, Cleveland, OH understand it, we would be so simple that we
rx...@po.cwru.edu couldn't."-Emerson Pugh, "The Biological Origin
rob...@aol.com of Human Values"
ga...@buxhed.enet.dec.com
Article <1993Jul19.08...@datamark.co.nz>, (Thomas Beagle) sez -
> Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
> awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
> doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
> This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
>
> To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
Here's another one who's thought about this...
Is it actually true ? Or is it vile media
misrepresentation that leads most Europeans to
beleive that a high percentage of Americans
spend time, reclining on a couch, reliving
their wonder years for a bearded doctor with
an eastern european accent ?
Gary
Joni Jarvenkyla
Just turn gay and YOU can be the lady! Pay 'em all back!
Lynn
>
>Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
>awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
>
support. The US culture is so immersed in Competition that friends
are not much help for internal fixes. Support friends are more common
among women then men. And real common in the gaybiles communities.
Plus, the media here makes the idea of going to a shrink the cultural
norm.
Sick.
Lynn
G.E.Brookhart
>
> Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek
> counseling" and walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go
> to paid prostitutes. It's also a slap in the face and a brutal
> display of callousness in many situations. Perhaps people are using
> the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient way of being
> shallow fair weather friends.
[stuff deleted]
>Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
>than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
Perhaps Dave the Bitter better realize that he needs a counselor as well as
friends. Dave the Bitter has problems that are too big for a friend to be
able to solve and needs the advice and counsel of someone who is prepared to
do more than just say, "Uh, yeah, I know where you're comin' from dude and
like it'll be all right." Dave has a lot of issues here that are beyond
the knowledge of most folks to provide help with: abusive parents, divorce
and family issues, ACOA issues, self-image problems, homesickness, weight
problems, communication problems, etc. Shoot, it might even take multiple
counselors!
As for fair-weather friends... Dave the Bitter, please listen up. Your
friends are only going to accept so much of this shit that you spew
before they walk away. People here have tried to be your friend and told
you some things that you didn't want to hear. So you flamed them into
toast. Scott at Purdue was trying to do you a favor and you immediately
decided he was scum because he comes from the same school as girl who you
had trouble with. Go with the counselors, bud... they are at least
getting money to stick with you. What are you giving your friends but
grief?
Right now I am afraid that you might have a problem that even you didn't
consider... You might not be able to recognize help when it is offered to
you!
>Third news flash: the light bulb has gotta REALLY WANT TO CHANGE.
BINGO!!!!
Dave has all the answers and is just shooting venom at every post in
response to his and I imagine that I might even get some myself. He
doesn't want to be a better person, he wants to fight for his right to
be a jerk and whine about it. Sure he has the right to be a jerk and feel
that way but posting to a public group and labelling everyone he even
thinks about with abusive and cruel names is *NOT* a signal that he is
willing to do anything more than whine.
>As I said before: David, if you've really hit bottom -- if you really
>believe that life as it stands right now is so painful you don't believe
>it's livable as it is -- then let us, or me, know. Some of us have been
>through it; we may have something useful to tell you. (You could read
>the _Rewriting your Life_ thread if you want to see some of my thoughts
>on it, or I'll mail you a transcript of it as it stands on request.)
We have ALL been through our own version of hell! I am overweight, overtall
and plain as a board. My boyfriend is overweight and coped with a birth
defect for his entire childhood. We are both from alcoholic families.
We both have money troubles. We are 450 miles apart. Life isn't easy but
you gotta at least decide that there *IS* a bright side that you can
obtain.
Deciding that all women are bitches and then moaning that none of them
will pay attention to you?
Shit, MAN! Then why aren't you dancing in the streets that you are not
saddled with one of those bitches!
You can't have it both ways. Change your attitude about yourself and make
some changes so that people will want to be with you. Nice people are
afraid of you! They are scared to death of your attitude. Decide that all
women aren't bitches and that folks who tell you hard facts aren't
contemptible for telling you the truth.
Get over it!
Yes, it was simplistic advice and it was laden with my own share of bitter
medicine but I felt it had to be done.
Gail B.
Nancy A Howells
Let us say, rather, that people are shallow.
I was overweight in varying amounts, ending with being 5 feet, six
inches tall, and weighing around 310, and I got what you got. From
men, though.. hey! Wow... isn't that interesting?
Let us rephrase: Some people are shallow. Maybe even most people are
shallow... I don't know. And I sympathize with you.
Hey, I enjoyed being called someone's nightmare to a campus of 50,000
IN PRINT... NOT!
Hey, I enjoyed being told that I was great company, but the guy had a
girlfriend who was dull, boring, but GORGEOUS, and therefore he
couldn't consider me as anything other than a fling -- did I want a
fling with him? NOT, NOT!
Hey, I even more enjoyed falling in love with someone, and having him
fall in love with me, until he realized that his friends were laughing
at him. And then I got -- "hey, what does a fat chick have in common
with a motorcyle? THey're both fun to ride, until your friends find
out." No, I didn't sleep with him -- he just had an overactive
imagination, and I enjoyed him telling his friends THAT, too... NOT.
I finally found someone. Hey, he's not perfect, either! He doesn't
happen to be heavy, but I dated men who were, and found them
attractive. He's just the one who happened to be the one I love.
So, wh at am I trying to say? You're not the only one, and it's not
just women. Life sucks. Being different, socially "unacceptable" by
today's standards sucks. Being "nice" or even nice sucks when you
don't get anything in return. But it's the way it is.
When I stopped obsessing over it, I found my husband. Maybe, if you
get on with your life, and love your life, and love yourself, and find
something every day to love with all your might (I didn't say someone,
there) but something like art, music, your work, whatever that may be,
the sunrise, the feel of the air on your skin -- if you just LIVE,
maybe just maybe, some very deserving woman will see your love of
life, and will see YOU... you never know.
Sounds a little idealistic, but hey...
it's better than all the hurt, hate and garbage you carry now...
and which I carried for such a long time, too.
--Nancy
Stef Jones
>[...] there damned well are women (and men) who find looks
>and other social properties to be important. Anyone who says otherwise
>is kidding themselves.
>
>The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
>can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
>of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
>not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
>deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
You're posting to one of those places. The people I've met via the net are
some of the least looks-conscious I've known. (However, most aren't so
crazy about the kind of indiscriminate anger that the original Dave displayed.)
As for places -- science fiction conventions seem less weight-conscious
than many gatherings. I also think some parts of the country are less
weight-conscious than others. I've found the San Francisco Bay Area to
be less so than the East Coast, for example. Anyone else have this experience?
Being self-conscious and unsure, however, is only in part a problem with
where you hang out. It's also an internal problem that can take a while to
change even if you change your environment.
--
Stef
rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty
st...@netcom.com
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. --Eleanor Roosevelt
Charles R. Martin
In article <MARTINC.93...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu> mar...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
>Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
>than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
doctor to help them make sense of the world?
This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
Gee, Thomas, there are so many false assumptions here that I don't know
where to start. Hmmm, let's take two of them:
(1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
years to accumulating, and a professional career including
internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
ignorant.
(2) No matter how many friends we have, it's unlikely that they are
somehow blessed with the special skills needed to effect the kinds
of change therapy can make.
Pooh
>Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
>awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
>This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
>
>To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
Thomas, I can appreciate your perspective, but most people just
aren't *trained* to do the kind of talking that a person
in pain really requires. Professionals who are paid to
listen, who don't have a personal interest in the problem,
and who are well versed in coping techniques will do someone
a much greater service than a friend who just hands you
a bottle of whisky and a shoulder to cry on (not that
there's anything wrong with that; you could probably use both).
Besides, when there are real serious mental health problems,
I don't think it's fair to dump them on a friend who hasn't
a clue how to handle them. It can jeopardize the friendship.
Pooh
po...@apple.com
steven.m.stein
Excellent post. Good point. But, apparently, you don't understand.
These few people are always right because they are part of the
insignificant majority. They read books, texts, manuals, and only
watch educational tutorials and science programs on TV. Of course
they are the global experts on EVERYTHING and their opinions, laws,
rules, and shit is perfect.
(and I got some land in Florida you might be interested in buying)
StEvE
Jerry Williamson
>childhood plays a prominent role in his current situation.
>
>Like Dave, I have physical aspects that are out of style for
>heterosexual men these days (i.e., fat, bald, not tall) and I'm a
>computer geek, but unlike Dave my parents were/are great, and I had
>lots of friends as a child.
Some things are within your control though. Women are turned off
more by excessive weight than either baldness of height. Why?
For one thing, obesity is the one thing you CAN control!
(You can also join Hair Clib for men, but IMHO it is bullshit since
it covers the real you as it would me -- which is why I live my
live au natural (i.e. sans toupee)).
It is good that you have positive memories of your parents. Happy
childhood memories is one thing women will certainly find attractive.
>
>Yet, the fact is, I date rarely, end up "friends" with all of the women
>I date, and haven't made love to a woman in over 10 years. I find a
>lot of the same things that Dave finds.
The fact that I would (and have) refused to date a woman who is 100 lbs.
heavier than me does NOT indicate that I am superficial. It is reality.
I could care less if she is flat-chested or any of the other things
that they would feel self-conscious about that are beyond their
control, but one thing I and most people do NOT have sympathy for is
complainers rationalizing how superficial society is as they continue
to gorge themselves on Hostess Twinkies and McDonald's Bic-Macs.
The stereotype that people who are obese also happen to have poor self-images
and generally apathetic and at times (you bet) lazy is by and large
true. I have known many (including one sister) and the reputation
is well deserved.
>
>Now, I don't think that women are the whole problem, though I have run
>into some interesting situations. I mentioned "computer geek" as a
>negative above, because I have heard or read women saying specifically
>that they aren't interested in men that work with computers. I've also
Tell that to the dozen or so women I have dated. Most women are not
SPECIFICALLY interested on computers, but if that is ALL you have
to offer a woman you are not going to have much luck.
>had a lot of women who were "not looking for a man" all of a sudden
>find men not long after I asked them out. It's weird to listen to a
>single woman who is "looking for a real man", but is busy if I ask her
>out.
I myself am also (as you put it) a computer 'geek' but most people
do not guess this when they first get to know me since I am very
athletic and somewhat artistic as well. Try and find some athletic
activites that you consider to be fun. Even if you do not meet the
woman of your dreams, you will at least be making an attempt to
improve your physical appearance by losing some weight. Your heart
will thank you as well.
>
>In other words, there damned well are women (and men) who find looks
>and other social properties to be important. Anyone who says otherwise
>is kidding themselves.
Where did it ever say that this was not true? If looks truly were
unimportant, then we all would be married wouldn't we? Be happy with
what God gave you and take good care of it. The rest will happen
all on its own.
>
>The things that we Dave's need to do is to find those people who really
>can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
>of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
>not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
>deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
In your case this would apply. In Dave's case he is in some serious
psychological and emotional trouble and DOES need professional help.
You sir are asking too much of society to ignore the fact that you refuse
to take care of yourself and take the laissez-faire attitude with your weight.
You already have my advice regarding meeting people. Get your butt to the gym
and start taking care of yourself.
What you tell people when you neglect your physical appearance is that
'I couldn't give a damn about myself' whether you really do or not.
Society in turn does (and will) reject you since no one else can care
about you if you do not care for yourself first.
>--
>David Elliott - d...@netcom.com (formerly d...@smsc.sony.com) - (408)735-8362
Good luck and take care,
Jerry Williamson
>walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go to paid prostitutes. It's
No it is not. This guy needs major psychological reconstruction before
he can EVEN CONSIDER getting resocialized and reintegrated into society.
I know ZERO women or men who have that kind of emotional capacity to
help him while trying to endure a relationship like that. Starting
relationships is like interviewing for a job (yeah, it's true). You
do not show up at IBM in jeans and a tee-shirt telling the interviewer
how much IBM stinks (Mr. Edsall used far worse language including indirect
threats which sure indicates to me that I would NEVER place any of my
female friends at risk by fixing a date for him with one
of them.)
>also a slap in the face and a brutal display of callousness in many situations.
If you want us to cast a magic wand and make all of his problems go away,
have him lose 120 lbs., and meet Mrs. Wonderful ALL in 24 hours then
I have some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you. The point is
the help he needs has nothing to do with woman. He was abused. How bad
we will never know. This is not callousness -- it is reality, sir.
>Perhaps people are using the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient way
>of being shallow fair weather friends.
No, if you want to use the weather analogy this guy is a Category 5
hurricane (like, er, Hurricane Andrew last year or Hugo in 1989?).
I would run too!
> Last time I had an emotional crisis, several "friends" dropped me like a hot
>potato, telling me they'd be back after I went through "counseling" (like Dave,
>I'd just lost a SO). I needed someone to confirm that I was a worthwhile
>person, and instead they all told me that nobody but a paid counsellor would
>bother paying attention to me. It was like having all supports ripped from my
>dwelling at once. Eventually, I found new friends.
We suggested he get medical help. No one suggested that he be abandoned.
The counseling is necessary since most people do NOT have the intense
training and experience to provide the major work this guy needs.
> If someone close to you seems to need help, by all means recommend
>professional help if you think that's what they need. But that is no substitute
>for being there yourself as someone who they can talk to because you care, not
>because it's your job.
That is exactly what we did.
>
> I'm not saying we all have a duty in Dave's case--we don't even know who he
>is, and he hasn't asked anyone to help him--just give it some thought before
>you kick people to the counselor.
We have a moral duty to help someone if we can who is having trouble
because it is the decent thing to do. The only help we can give David
is the message that he needs professional assitance. Even if I were
a professional counselor, I could not even begin to get to work
on what this guy is in need of over the Net. Advice on relationships
in general can be appropriate since we have all been there and this
newsgroup is a good place for that kind of general support. For Dave, it
would be criminally neglegent to start overhauling his head in this
newsgroup.
Yes, a lot of thought was given to my response and if you for a minute think
this guy is stable enough to maintain a worthwhile relationship at 31
after years of the abuse that he went through that IMHO you are nuts too.
>
>Andrew Ross Help stamp out mental illness, or I'll kill you!
>>
'nuff said
>>Toni
Kevin Cameron
> Dave
>
I bet that felt good :-)
--
Living in a screwed-up place in a screwed-up time with screwed-up people,
does not necessarily mean you are screwed-up. ("Pump Up The Volume")
rob
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
>you don't want me.
So you have two options.
1. Stay the way you are. This is a fine and dandy option; it requires
no work on your part. You get to keep your hatred; nothing wrong with
that. But it won't get you the love of a woman, will it? The fact that
you feel it's "wrong" to be "superficial" in this manner won't affect
whether anyone out there remains "superficial".
2. Deal with it. Accept the fact that others are superficial. Now
purge yourself of those things that make the superficialities of others
avoid you. If you feel that your weight causes others to shun you (a
likely prospect), deal with it. Lose some weight. Of course it's not
easy, dammit! Who the hell ever said life was easy? So it's not fair
that you can't just live however you want (i.e., be fat) and still find
true love. Maybe it's not fair. But then, I wonder what your basis for
comparison is. (A point if you know the origin of that line.)
The fact is, there are fat people who are happily married. So maybe the
problem isn't that you're fat. But if you believe that your weight is
the problem, and you still want a woman, you can only solve the problem
by dealing with it. Not by ranting about it.
rob
Gene Golovchinsky
>can look past our looks and will want us for who we are. So, instead
>of suggesting therapy and telling Dave to get his act together, why
>not suggest places where people can go to meet people, yet not have to
>deal with being self-conscious and unsure, so we can "be ourselves"?
I would claim that the mere act of going to such a place (and
making an effort to socialize there) would be a big step toward
'getting your act together'
The next step after that would be to learn how to "be yourselves"
in other situations.
2
G
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
Well, for me, it's always a mistake to "calm myself down." I try, though
not always successfully, to find a safe person(s) with whom I can unload
these kinds of feelings.
Fo rme, anger and pain only get in the way of what I want.
> You women are bitches. I'm lonely. I'm 31. I have never had a girlfriend.
>I want some love. My father abused me. My mother was a co-dependent. My family
>is screwed up. I want love.
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
>chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
>stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
>the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
>bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
>knows how to love you. You don't want anyone who will be insecure either.
>No, what you want is some tan stud with a big dick who will treat you like
>a two-bit slut. You like being abused. You wanna tame this wild horse. You
>wanna show off your conquest. You want some asshole who doesn't know what
>love means.
> I could be strong. Problem is, because of my background, I can be very
>weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
>But men aren't suppose to cry. They have to be strong 24 hours a day,
>7 days a week.
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>can't and refuse to throw you against the wall and say I love you afterwards
>you don't want me.
First of all, doing everything that I thought I was "supposed" to do,
was exactly what always got me into trouble. It took some hard work,
but I eventually figure out what I wanted todo, and then learned the
skills to do that. It took a lot of time, it was real frustrating, and
I'm still learning. At the beginning, I found the right people with
whom I could scream and shout and complain, people who listened, understood,
and then very carefully taught me all the things I never learned when
I was a kid. Things about loving myself, things about knowing how to
ask, things about negotiating what *I* really wanted at the moment, and
I learned how much of a setup it is to do what I think I *should do* or
what I think is some magic formula that guarantees results.
Second of all, for me you must be a great guy or you wouldn't have the
guts to shout this very personal stuff so loudly...all over the world
for lots of people to hear. For me, the message is very clear. It sounds to me like you are saying
that you hurt, that you are fed up with getting treated like crap,
and that you have a lot of good things to offer. To me, that sounds
very postive.
> What the fuck is your problem?
> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
>gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
>don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
>up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
I think you ARE a nice guy. And I think that there ARE lots of men and
women as well who are very screwed up, who take advantage of lonely
people who "just want to be loved." I also know now, however, that I can
protect myself from the "wolves" and find people who really do love me,
and who really do give me what I want.
> You wanna get married? Fuck you! I'd be the best husband and father in
>the world. Problem is, it won't happen because none of you bitches are willing
>to give me a chance.
> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
>this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
>bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>your lack of compassion.
I don't think this letter is abusive. I think it's honest. For me, I
know who I am, and I don't take it personally that a man is pissed off
at "women". How can somebody be pissed off at me if they don't even know
me? For me, your letter sounds very angry, but it also sounds honest. It
also sounds like you want things to change, and that you realize that there
are some missing pieces in your life, in addition to "pieces" (abuse) that
shouldn't have been there in the first pace. Lots of people takea long
time to even figure that much out.
As far as weighing over 300 ounds, I can say that there are lots of women
have a preference for Big Men, and that in my own experience it's been a matter of finding men who had a preference for women like me (physical and emotional)
and selecting from that group, rather than trying to just win over SOMEBODY
so as not to be alone. It wasn't easy. It took a lot of hard work, lots
of introspection and self-discovery.
w
> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
>If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
>your gender after all.
>And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
>Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
>closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
Ok. So, do you care that somebody has the guts to say that they understand
how painful it is to feel this way? And the guts to say that she's willing
to listen, send you email hugs, and tell you that it doesn't matter how
much you weigh?
wyldwmn
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>
> It is generally not a good idea to tell the people that you want to help
>you cure your lonliness that they suck. That will not help your case, and will
>slant any and all views against you. But, I read on. I was willing to give the
>benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, that did not pan out. Your father abused
>you. Your mother was co-dependant. Great. I think Bill Clinton had similar
>problems, and he has A) A beautiful wife, who loves and cares for him, B) A
>loving daughter, and C) The oval office all to himself. You cannot blame your
>family because you are a loser. If Billy can do it, you can do it. (Jesus, I
>just said something nice about Clinton. It's time to seriously reconsider my
>views on suicide.) You want love, it's out there. You've got to take the time to
>look.
For me, it's painful to be told "if so-and-so can do it, so can you." I don't like
to be compared to otehr people. I like to be seen for who I am now, at the
place I am now. For all *I* know, Bill Clinton (or anybody else) has dressed
themself from teh outside in. Being President doesn't automatically mean
that a person has it together on the inside.
>
>> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
>> chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
>
> I do the same thing. I seem to do all right. (True, I'm without SO right
>now, but I'm meeting people, and have someone in mind, if she'll have me.)
>
For me, when somebody says: "Well, *I* don't have any trouble in that regard" it
makes me feel even worse....like that person is saying that the problem must
be *me*. That hurts.
>> stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
>> the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
>
> Are you sure that you're being what they want? Are you sure that they
>don't want it? Maybe you're missing some signals. I know I miss them often
>enough. (Please apply hints with a sledgehammer, I think is the case.)
>
Or maybe, it's really a matter of not having learned in the first pace
what this whole thing of "signals" means (and doesn't mean), and learning
how to just ask rather than "read" or "guess." It isn't anyone's fault
that skills and tools were left out of their upbrining. For me, it hurts
to hear someone say: "well, it's becuase you aren't doing this or that
right."
>
>> bitches. You don't want someone sensitive. You don't want someone who really
>
> No, that's inaccurate. And calling them liars and bitches will not help
>you. Really, people do base a lot on first impressions, and I can tell you that
>there's a whole shitload of people here who's first impression of you is shot.
>
I dunno. For me, letting out the anger is ok, even if it means initially saying
that all women or men or a certain way. It's when this is acted out in an abusive way that it gets dangerous.
> Oh, yeah. That'll bring them running every time. And you're from what
>planet? C'mon, guy. Get a grip. If women really wanted that, then Alan Alda
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Somehow, I can hear his parents telling him this. I can't imagine that it
would serve any other purpose other than to humiliate and cause pain.
>> weak sometimes as well. I need a woman as much as she needs me sometimes.
>
>That's what love is, being able to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>depend on one another when you're weak, but also being able to be an independant
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To me, that menas allowing someone to "let it all out" without taking it
personally, without telling them to "get a grip."
> And I have a bridge in Wyoming for sale. Gimme a break, guy. The days of
>stereotypes like that are over. Calm down, take a nice sedative, and watch some
>tv. They say art reflects life, and they're not exactly wrong. TV mirrors life.
>After you see what other people live like, that in today's day and age there are
>no expectations of being strong 24-7, maybe you'll start to notice some of the
>signs around you that are telling you that maybe people are more interested in
>you than you think. But I'll tell ya what, if you keep that attitude up, you're
>not going to get anywhere.
To me, this sounds like what his parents might have told him. This doesn't
sound like love tome.
>> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>
> Not everyone is superficial. So you're fat. Look back at the Clinton
>references I made. (Sorry, but I couldn't take the fact that I said something
>nice about a man who I spent a year of my life, campaigning constantly against.
>Sue me.) He still seems to get along fine. I hate to keep using presidential
>refrences, but they're the easiest to identify with, so....look at Taft. They
>had to put a special tub in the White House for him because he got stuck in the
>original one. He was considerably over 300 lbs. That didn't seem to stop him
>from getting a wife. Not everyone out there stops once they see your body. The
>ones who do- fuck em. You don't need em if they're that superficial.
Sounds to me like this man is talking about the pain of being discriminated
against becuase he is fat. For me, it isn't ok to throw examples of how
other poeple "made it" in hi sface. perhaps some other fat man got married...
that doesn't mean it was successful or that it is any measure forthe man
who is expressing his pain here.
>
>> 300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me. You don't even know me and
>> already you decide that I ain't worth the time. I'm a great guy. I can
>
> I think it's more an attitude like the one you're displaying than your
>body that makes them think that you're not worth the time.
I think this is exactly why this guy is fed up and in major pain.
>
>
>> furnish references. I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what
>> a great guy I am. But why bother? You don't want to take the time to know.
>
> Someone out there might want to. Ever try alt.personals? I used to think
>that it was a desperation move, too. I thought about it, though, and it really
>does save a lot of time cutting through the bullshit. You find someone who likes
>your ad enough to e-mail you, and then woo her with what a great guy you are.
>(Or at least claim to be.) That way, you don't have to worry about superficial
>bullshit getting in the way.
I think his post did a REAL good job of cutting through a lot of bullshit.
I admire him.
>> Because I am not tan and have a big John Holmes dick and because I
>
> No excuse. I have no tan and am on the low end of the average scale for
>penile length (and I know that my hopeful SO is reading this and really hope she
>can overlook that, or I'm gonna have to eat a whole lot of what I've just
>said...), adn I still get laid. (And, Kent Students, I don't want any public
>comments on this. We all know what happened, we don't need to tell the world.
>That means you, Duane.) I still get dates. I still find myself in caring
>relationships with people. Have you not heard the phrase, "It's not the pen,
>it's how you write your name?" I'm here to tell you that there's a lot of truth
>to that statement.
For me, it doesn't matter how many other men have come to terms with their
penis size, shape, etc. It only matters how *HE* is coming to terms with
himself right now. For me, he posted because the time is right for him to
get some support, some understanding, some patience, some opportunity to
learn the things he never learned, some space to process the pain and grief.
I'm willingto give him that space, not take what he said personally, and to
give him credit for having the guts to spill all this in a public forum.
>> What the fuck is your problem?
>
> There's some loudmouthed jerk telling them that they're all lying
>bitches? That would sorta put me off, I can't speak for them. (I know better
>than to try to speak for a woman. You could put all I know about women in a
>nutshell and still have room for Jessee Jackson's brain.)
>
Well, I don't see him as a loudmothed jerk.
>> Why must I be lonely for 31 years? I don't approach a woman unless she
>> gives me a sign that I should. Problem is, ha ha, they never do. See, I
>
> You must be lonely for 31 years because you don't approach a woman
>unless she gives you a sign. If I waited until I got a positive signal from a
>woman to approach her, I'd have never met a woman in my life. Don't just leer at
>them, walk over, start a conversation. What's the worst she can say? Sorry, I'm
>not interested? It's not like she'll tear gas you for trying to start a
>conversation. Who knows? Maybe you're just misreading signals. Take it from me,
>I'm a master at that.
For me, being desperately lonely isn't as simple as "misreading signals." It
goes much deeper.
>
>> don't want to bother you bitches who are scared and have their minds made
>> up. I'm a nice guy. Too nice. You don't fucking deserve me.
>
> You've yet to prove any shred of niceness to anyone here. I'm offering
>constructive advice because I'm too stupid not to rush out and help everyone I
>see in need. One day I'll wise up, but until then, learn something off of others
>mistakes, and take heed of a passing fool's kindness. Ask anyone at Kent, it's a
>damn rare thing when I say something intelligent, so think of yourself as
>something special for getting one directed at you.
Well, Dave, I already think you are a nice guy, and like I said, I do
admire that you had the guts to post this. There are a lot of men out there
who will think themselves successful somehow because they think that they
"at least aren't as bad as you." For me, they are worse off.
>> But but but Dave. Men are assholes too. Fine. Not me ( except maybe after
>
> Yes. Men are assholes too. I agree with you 100%. (That's why I get
>bombarded with the "Men are Pigs" speech so often, I cannot disagree with it.)
>
>> this letter ). I've been the nice guy this whole time. Yet another case of
>> bad judgemnt on your part GIRLS ( that should get the feminists ).
>
> I'll agree. There was bad judgement at play here. You miss the part
>about whose judgement was bad. The women (I will not say girls, I am in enough
>trouble from the left due to what I've said about President Clinton.) are not
>entirely at fault. Ok, so maybe some of the superficial ones passed you by
>because you were not physically attractive to them. You don't want a woman like
>that anyway. (Trust me on this one, I know of whence I speak.) There is someone
>out there willing to listen, give her a chance to come to you. (Of course, you
>might want to post anon to alt.personals, as most of the people who read this
>also read alt.personals and vice-versa, and your image isn't so hot right about
>now. After this cools off a bit, then use your name, but for now, anonymous
>posting is a good thing.)
For me, hearing someone say: "There's SOMEBODY out there for you...trust me...
just go try to find them" is even more of an abandonment issue than what I
had before. For me, I like it when someone helps me learn to articulate what
I do want, and then gives me guidance on how I can go about learning the skills
I need to actually get what I want. It's a long process. It's painful, but
when I keep getting more and more of what I want, I realize that the pain is
usually the old pain that I want to process and heal from anyway.
>> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>> abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>> your lack of compassion.
>
> Nope, sorry, Dave, but I have to call a spade a spade. It's abusive as
>all hell. No matter what the reason behind it is, it's abusive. If I went home
>and kicked the shit out of my dog, (which I would rather die than do, so please,
>PETA, don't come after me.), and said it was because I hadn't had a good
>day/week/month/year/decade/life/etc, it's still abuse.
I see a big difference between kicking a dog and using a forum that
is designated as a SUPPORT system to unload feelings. For me, utilizing a suppport forum menas that I can unload anything that I am feeling without being
judged, blamed, etc., and receive understanding, patience and support.
For me, kicking my dog would be passing on the abuse. Letting in out in
Alt.support would be a step toward processing and growth.
>
>
>> So in the end, if this letter applies to you and/or a friend, fuck off.
>
> It doesn't apply to anyone. Your twisted view of society has got to
>change, or you'll always be lonely and miserable. One does not cure loneliness
>by driving everyone away. Really, take time to really think about what we both
>said.
I disagree. For me, a person's view is based on their experiences. It takes
a lot of positive, nurturing experience nad a lot of healing to change that view.
It doesn't happen over night.
>
>
>> If it doesn't apply to you or a friend, hmmm, maybe there is some hope for
>> your gender after all.
>
> There is hope for them. Is there hope for you?
For me, his post demonstrated that there is MUCH hope.
>
>
>> And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
>> Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
>> closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
>
> Like I said, I'm not flaming you.
>Don't give me any shit about being in Europe for a year. I lived half my life in
>Europe, and all my life I was really surprised if I lived in the same country
>for more than two years. I know what it's like to be lonely, to have few
>friends, not to speak the language. People are people no matter where you go.
>Try learning the language, a really great way to meet people is at a class to
>learn the language of the country you live in. Get a female study partner.
>She'll help you out. And I know the pain of losing the closest person to you, I
>recently went through losing the person who got me off the drugs and alcohol,
>who gave me a life worth living. I know how it feels. You gotta get on with your
>life. You gotta take care of yourself, because there isn't anybody out there to
>do it for you. Take charge of your life, get it under control, learn to like
>yourself again. When you do that, someone will come your way.
Well, again, for me it isn't ok to tell somebody that if somebody else "did it"
that they can too.
>
>
> You now have my advice. I purposely didn't flame you, against my better
>judgement, because I saw a soul in need of help. You can choose to either follow
>my advice or ignore it completely, but remember this. I was you six months ago.
>I honestly felt that all women were incarnate forms of evil, and were put here
>to make us miserable. It when you have thoughts like that when you really have
>to take a look at yourself from the outside. I did and didn't like what I saw. I
>completely revamped what I am, and now I've gotten on with my life, and have
>gotten to the point where I'm ready to move into a new relationship. You do get
>over the pain of loss; it will always be there somewhere in your mind, but
>sooner or later it subsides and stops being the central focus of your life.
>Don't believe me? Write to dmcd...@nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Duane, sorry about this
>but you know me better than anyone on the net.), and ask him what I was like
>when Pitts died. He'll tell you that if I have any brain cells left, it's by
>grace of God. Ask him what I'm like now, or better yet, reread what I just
>wrote. I see a definate change, don't you? Greif is a natural response to a
>loss, but there is a time to let go and move on with your life. She would've
>wanted you to, wouldn't she? So, taking or leaving my advice is up to you, but I
>can tell you that had I not followed it, I'd probably be to wasted to give it to
>you, and to insensate to care if you ever do get your life back together or not.
>Women are not attracted to emotional black holes. (Yes, that was shamelessly
>stolen from someone here on this group, but I don't remember who. You know who
>you are, and will doubtless figure it out.) Once you gain faith in yourself,
>notice the change in how people look at you. And if my advice doesn't help,
>what's the harm in trying it anyway. I'd rather die trying to make myself a
>better person, than die lonely and miserable, knowing that I could have done
>something about it. The world is not a conspiracy against you, you are your own
>worst enemy. Don't undo yourself, and the world won't try to undo you either.
>
This sounds like a lot of generalizing to me. It doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Michael Simone
>msi...@nimitz.mcs.kent.edu
>
>
wyldwmn
Ross Ridge
>chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
>the kind of person you said you wanted. I am and you don't want it. You lying
What woman lied to you? Why did it take half your life to realize
that the knight in shining routine was working for you?
> You know what, you bitches? You are superficial. I'm fat. I weigh over
>300 pounds. You'd never want a date from me.
Lame excuse. Being fat didn't stop one guy I knew from getting
more tail than anyone else I've known.
> I'm a great guy.
Of course...
> I have lots of women "friends" who will tell you what a great guy I am.
After you've called them lying bitches?
> Don't call this letter abusive. This letter is a result of the emotional
>abuse I have endured for 20 years due to our fucked up society and due to
>your lack of compassion.
After 20 years you can only call it self-delusion.
>And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
>Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
>closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
*snort* Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
>fluffyheaded gals just don't recognize real sensitivity.
d...@netcom.com (David Elliott) writes:
>You don't know that Dave is going around saying these things to people
>he meets, and in fact he probably isn't. He has given us a glimpse of
>his inner feelings on one day of his life.
While I doubt he goes around calling women bitches in person, I'd
be very suprised if his inner feelings didn't show through in
his day to day interactions with people. As he said he's been
repressing these feelings for quite a while, and extream feelings
like his aren't going covered very well by his nice guy act
no matter how good he thinks it is.
>When you give this guy a hard time, you might want to consider the
>psychology of the net. There are people who post things to the net
>that they would never say to people in person. The net can be an
>extension of one's private space.
>
>Can you honestly say you've never said anything in the privacy of your
>own home that you wouldn't want people to hear you say in a grocery
>store?
Sorry, but the 'Net isn't anywhere near a private place. A grocery
store wasn't a big enough forum for David. He posted his vitrolic
tirade where tens of thousands of people could read it. The 'Net
didn't offer him privacy. What it did offer him, however, was a
certain degree of anomynity.
>Are you so perfect that all of your thoughts are saintly?
On this scale, his posting was downright demonic.
>If not, give the guy a break.
Sorry, I don't think he doesn't deserves one.
Ross Ridge
Andrew M Ross
> To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
>
>Gee, Thomas, there are so many false assumptions here that I don't know
>where to start. Hmmm, let's take two of them:
>
>(1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
> description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
> years to accumulating, and a professional career including
> internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
> effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
> people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
> disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
> ignorant.
Well, ok, maybe "mountebank who believes his own bullshit" is a more
accurate term. On the American west coast, high-falutin' "training programs"
exist to lend credibility to astrologers, scientologists, aromatherapists and
tarot readers as well. Does that mean they have any more to offer than your
average fly-by-night faith healer?
Head-shrinking has only existed for the past hundred years, and people got
along pretty much ok before that. Non-americans don't go into therapy every
time someone farts, and they're no more messed up than we are. Ever consider
that maybe it's just another plot by the privileged class to con us out of our
money?
I went through three "therapists" a while back. Most of what they told me
were variations on "Get used to it. That'll be $50 please" and "Isn't it
significant that you eat your carrots sliced up?". None of them did me as much
good as simply getting laid did. In fact, their existence may have screwed
things up for me more, since in this country people are encouraged to share
only good times with others, and to drop them like potatoes during the bad
times. Whatever happened to the "therapy" of simply having a good support
network that's there for you in times of stress, not because you pay them, but
because there's this thing called caring for each other? Knowing that you have
people who care about you is the best therapy of all. Anything the
headshrinkers give you is merely expensive common sense.
Or are most Americans finally lacking in that too?
Andrew Ross I believe you just can't love other people until you learn to love
yourself. And, quite frankly, I'm in love with myself.
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>> Well, you certainly know how to present yourself well....I guess those
>>fluffyheaded gals just don't recognize real sensitivity.
>
>he meets, and in fact he probably isn't. He has given us a glimpse of
>his inner feelings on one day of his life.
>
>psychology of the net. There are people who post things to the net
>that they would never say to people in person. The net can be an
>extension of one's private space.
>
>Can you honestly say you've never said anything in the privacy of your
>own home that you wouldn't want people to hear you say in a grocery
>
Good for you. I agree.
wyldwmn
Daniel Banyas
|> In article <Baew7B...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>, to...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Toni Parra-Carrasco) writes...
|> > (various comments about that poor schmuck from Iowa deleted)
|> Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek counseling" and
|> walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go to paid prostitutes. It's
|> also a slap in the face and a brutal display of callousness in many situations.
|> Perhaps people are using the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient way
|> of being shallow fair weather friends.
That's a big Ann Landers and Dear Abby thing, too. Every problem
that you have can be solved by counseling. Alcoholic? Join AA!
Marriage problems? Go see a counselor! Son a homosexual? Go
see your Priest! These quick and easy newspaper solutions don't
ever begin to stress the pain and struggle that those with deep
problems will have to go through before they can move on with
their lives..
This guy Dave who is angry with women - well - I've felt the
way he does before. Frustrated, hurt, unable to see what's wrong
with either yourself or them. Now I didn't go wandering into
soc.singles and attack the whole offending gender - but I
definitely feel his pain.
Good luck, man. Out there is the right partner for you - I
hope you find her soon.
--
Danno - da...@is.morgan.com - The opinions expressed here
(blah, blah, blah) are mine (blah, blah, blah) and do not
necessarily reflect (blah, blah, blah) my employers' beliefs.
Sam : "I always like to give my waitresses a severence *boink*."
Diane: "Or the cash equivalent. Which in your case is $1.49."
Daniel Banyas
|> In article <MARTINC.93...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu> mar...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
|> >Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
|> >than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
|>
|> Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
|> awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
|> doctor to help them make sense of the world?
|>
|> This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
|>
|> To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
No. We have lawyers.
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>
>Thomas, I can appreciate your perspective, but most people just
>aren't *trained* to do the kind of talking that a person
>in pain really requires. Professionals who are paid to
>listen, who don't have a personal interest in the problem,
>and who are well versed in coping techniques will do someone
>a much greater service than a friend who just hands you
>a bottle of whisky and a shoulder to cry on (not that
>there's anything wrong with that; you could probably use both).
I disagree. I work for a center against Rape and Domestic Violence.
I'm an advocate. I'm not a therpaist, but I have had training in
acive listening. The agency I work for is made up of peers, not
professionals making a buck off people in pain, and we've
accomplished some major miracles.
There ARE trainings available for people who wish to improve
their communication and listening skills. Often when a survivor
goes to a therapist, there is an imbalance of "power"...however,
when that survivor talks with a peer, there is a different type
of process of healing that takes place.
I don't mean to implly that peers can take the place of
trained therapists and vice versa....but I do want to say that
it is my believe that many of us underestimate the power of
being a trained listener to survivors.
wyldwmn
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>
>Some things are within your control though. Women are turned off
>more by excessive weight than either baldness of height. Why?
>For one thing, obesity is the one thing you CAN control!
How do you know what "women" as a group are turned off by?
You don't speak for me. I LIKE fat men. And I like fat bald men.
It has nothing to do with "control."
wyldwmn
Jeff Sterner
dont want to help themselves. There is NO WAY around this. Ive read the
entire thread on Dave's 'Women are bitches', and I have many thoughts both
against him ad for him. I dont want to waste any bandwith with stuff that
has already been said, but I think that the 'seek counseling' thing needs some
attention. Ive been to counseling a few times in my life when I was young
basically because I was a brat and my parents couldnt handle me. I hated every
minute of it, and now that Im older I see that I hated it mainly because I
didnt believe I was being treated fairly because I was a kid. And because I
was a kid, I didnt realize how much I was hurting my parents, and I know now
that I almost broke up their marraige. Jeez am I glad it was only almost.
But Im getting off the subject. Dave, if you read this which Im sure you will,I think the best counseling is in the first place to try and just forget about
it completely. I know that this may just be the hardest task youve ever
undertaken, but in my experience its the only way. I just recently lost
my SO of 2 1/2 years, and I still love her dearly, even though she broke up
with me because she didnt love me anymore, and has been very cold to me since
then. I know that the only way that Im going to get over this is to just
keep ignoring it until time takes it away, and I know it will. Time does
wonders. But youve never really had a relationship, so I realize that your
situation is different. But once you can force yourself to forget about
everything, you may feel a better about yourself enough to go and get
counseling. But until then, I dont think the best psychiatrist could help
you because of your bitterness. A perfect example is the second post you
made, there were people who really identified with you who posted, but you
just responded to the ones who ripped you. And I dont think that they
had any place, because I knew even before you said it that the post that
you made was just a release. But apparently others didnt feel the same.
But what Im trying to say is that if someone really tried to help you, you
probably would get defensive and reject what they say. I have much the same
problem, I dont want to believe anyone whos trying to help me when I havent
come to terms with myself first. This is the most important step to recovery
from hurting. You must realize that if anyone else can help you, you must
feel good about what you are and stand for first. I really cant say it any
other way, its the only way to help yourself. I still dont know exactly
how to go about it for myself, as right now I cant say that I am happy with
what is going on in my life. And I am not seeking help because I know
that I am not ready to deal with what they are going to tell me. Until I am
ready, Ive accepted the fact that I must deal with what has happened by
trying to push it out of my mind, and let time take over from there.
At the risk of making this too long of a post, Id like to say that I did once
think that most women were superficial bitches, that started when I was
about 17 because of a very bad ending to a relationship, and it took me
nearly til I was 20 to feel like I could get into a serious relationship again,
and then I met the girl I spoke of earlier, who just dumped me a few months
ago. I truly believed that she was the one for me because she was so sweet
and caring, and that was what I had wanted in my next relationship, just some
one to love me. And she did, but after about a year we started having problems
for many reasons, and now that its over, I see that in the end she played alot
of games with me and I still havent decided if they were intentional or not,
but the fact remains that she either changed so drastically that I cant
believe it, or she just wasnt the person I thought she was. And there has
been absolutely noone of the female gender who has shown any interest in
me since I have been single. So I know that I must wait it out until it gets
easier with time, Ive been here before and I know it does.
So I guess the main thing Im trying to say is dont worry for now about not
being able to afford counseling, it really isnt what you need. But do try
to take it easy on yourself and keep trying to forget, and once it isnt the
central thing in your life anymore, dealing with it and conquering it will
be much, much easier. Oh, and btw, keep hold of those female friends you
mention, they may be more valuable to you that if they were involved with
you. I hope I have helped with what I have said, and I wish you the best.
Jeff
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>because it is the decent thing to do. The only help we can give David
>is the message that he needs professional assitance. Even if I were
>a professional counselor, I could not even begin to get to work
>on what this guy is in need of over the Net. Advice on relationships
>in general can be appropriate since we have all been there and this
>newsgroup is a good place for that kind of general support. For Dave, it
>would be criminally neglegent to start overhauling his head in this
>newsgroup.
I feel that I have a moral duty to listen to someone with patience, and
ask them what they want me to do to help them. I may help them find
out what their choices could be, and support whatever choice they make.
It isn't a matter of being "decent". It's a matter of sharing what has
been shared with me as an equal.
wyldwmn
wyl...@jacobs.csos.orst.edu
>In article <1993Jul19....@dvorak.amd.com>, je...@diablo.amd.com
>(Jerry Williamson) wrote:
>>
>> For one thing, obesity is the one thing you CAN control!
>
> metabolism? Or are all these heavy people I know secret eaters?
> They eat no more than I do, but I am thin and they remain fat.
> IMHO, your basic weight is largely a matter of genetics.
>
For me it's not a matter of whether or not it's true. It's a matter of
accepting people exactly the way they are, without conditions. I could
go on forever and ever with silly excuses like: "You SHOULD wear
cowboy shirts if you REALLY want to be attractive. After all, that's
something that CAN control....if you want to." People don't have to
do what *I* think they *should be able to do* to get my love. I love
them the way they are. Choosing not to love someone isn't basied on
anything except what I need, and a concious choice on m part to
negotiate a relationship with someone.
wyldwmn
James Preston
}Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
}awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
}doctor to help them make sense of the world?
}This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
}To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
Why are some people so much against the idea of therapy? If your car
develops a problem, who do you take it to: a friend or a professional
auto mechanic? If your TV develops a problem, who do you take it to:
a friend or a professional TV repair person? If your computer develops
a problem, who do you take it to: a friend or a professional computer
repair person?
If you happen to be lucky enough to know someone who is knowledgable
of and skilled at repairing such things, then you might take your sick
computer to that person. Otherwise, you'd be pretty foolish to let
some untrained friend poke around in your computer. No one puts down
people who pay money to have their sick computers or cars or TVs cared
for by professionals who know what they're doing.
So why is it any different when it comes to human beings? You think
a computer is complicated enough that it's worth paying money to a
professional to care for it, yet you think a human being's psyche
is so simple that any Joe who's known you for a while can take a crack
at fixing it?
Honestly, I just don't understand this attitude.
--Jim Preston
Robert Richardson
In a previous article, eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) says:
[Much stuff deleted]
My original answer to this only made it to alt.romance, so here goes again...
>
>
>And I really don't care if I am flamed to death after this. Try being in
>Europe for a year, few friends, very lonely and losing a year ago, the
>closest you ever came to having the woman of your dreams.
>
>
Dave, I will be short and blunt here.
This is NOT a flame.
I will NOT show you any pity--that's what you least need right now.
You need to regain control of your life. You seem to have been screwed up
from the start for reasons that are not your own fault. A good way to
start you on the path to getting past your anger about the past (and maybe
even getting your weight down, since you obviously don't like it) is to
get professional help from a psychologist.
Writing abusive, overgeneralizing letters about women will only make you
feel better in the short run--you have to gain control over your life to
feel better in the long run.
Peace and wonderfulness,
--
Robert Richardson "If the human brain were so simple that we could
CWRU Med, 1994, Cleveland, OH understand it, we would be so simple that we
rx...@po.cwru.edu couldn't."-Emerson Pugh, "The Biological Origin
rob...@aol.com of Human Values"
Daniel Banyas
|> In article <18JUL199...@oregon.uoregon.edu> ar...@oregon.uoregon.edu (Andrew M Ross) writes:
|> > Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek counseling" and
|> >walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go to paid prostitutes. It's
|>
|> No it is not. This guy needs major psychological reconstruction before
|> he can EVEN CONSIDER getting resocialized and reintegrated into society.
I see, Jerry. And where exactly did you get YOUR psychiatry degree from again?
|> If you want us to cast a magic wand and make all of his problems go away,
|> have him lose 120 lbs., and meet Mrs. Wonderful ALL in 24 hours then
|> I have some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you.
I can definitely picture you tossing an apple at this guy and then
laughing with all your buddies about how funny that was.
|> No, if you want to use the weather analogy this guy is a Category 5
|> hurricane (like, er, Hurricane Andrew last year or Hugo in 1989?).
|> I would run too!
Oh yeah - there you are with all the COOL people making fun of the
fat kid. Yeah - it's as clear as day.
|> We suggested he get medical help. No one suggested that he be abandoned.
|> The counseling is necessary since most people do NOT have the intense
|> training and experience to provide the major work this guy needs.
Well - if you'd paid attention - you'd know that Dave has been through
therapy. Venting agression through an NET posting doesn't mean someone's
a homicidal mainiac, Jer. Haven't you ever punched a wall (or pillow)
out of frustration?
|> We have a moral duty to help someone if we can who is having trouble
|> because it is the decent thing to do. The only help we can give David
|> is the message that he needs professional assitance. Even if I were
|> a professional counselor, I could not even begin to get to work
|> on what this guy is in need of over the Net.
But that's precisely what you're doing, bud. You have taken it upon
yourself to decide what is needed for Dave.
|> Yes, a lot of thought was given to my response and if you for a minute think
|> this guy is stable enough to maintain a worthwhile relationship at 31
|> after years of the abuse that he went through that IMHO you are nuts too.
Yes - a lot of thought went into your response. And instead of suggesting
anything helpful (the first "go seek counselling" was surely enought), you've
merely managed to heap insults upon someone who beyond anything else needs
your support.
Daniel Banyas
|>
|> In article <edsall.7...@pv7411.vincent.iastate.edu>, eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) writes:
|> >
|> > ....
|> > Dave
|> >
|>
|> I bet that felt good :-)
Exactly.
David M Edsall
>No it is not. This guy needs major psychological reconstruction before
>he can EVEN CONSIDER getting resocialized and reintegrated into society.
>I know ZERO women or men who have that kind of emotional capacity to
>help him while trying to endure a relationship like that. Starting
>relationships is like interviewing for a job (yeah, it's true). You
>do not show up at IBM in jeans and a tee-shirt telling the interviewer
>how much IBM stinks (Mr. Edsall used far worse language including indirect
>threats which sure indicates to me that I would NEVER place any of my
>female friends at risk by fixing a date for him with one
>of them.)
>We suggested he get medical help. No one suggested that he be abandoned.
>The counseling is necessary since most people do NOT have the intense
>training and experience to provide the major work this guy needs.
>We have a moral duty to help someone if we can who is having trouble
>because it is the decent thing to do. The only help we can give David
>is the message that he needs professional assitance. Even if I were
>a professional counselor, I could not even begin to get to work
>on what this guy is in need of over the Net. Advice on relationships
>in general can be appropriate since we have all been there and this
>newsgroup is a good place for that kind of general support. For Dave, it
>would be criminally neglegent to start overhauling his head in this
>newsgroup.
>Yes, a lot of thought was given to my response and if you for a minute think
>this guy is stable enough to maintain a worthwhile relationship at 31
>after years of the abuse that he went through that IMHO you are nuts too.
You know, the net REALLY amazes me at times. I feel a hell of a lot better
about myself today. I've gotten some really supportive feedback and have
skipped the others ( my choice to read, just as it was your choice ). I got
a lot off my chest the last two days. I'm glad I did it. And for all the people
reading women hating into my post, go back and re-read it. I directed my
comments, as I say now, for the third time, to those women who fit the
description.
Since when can ANYONE analyze what I need and don't need on the basis of
one post? This letter makes it sound like I better be locked up in a funny
farm. I am far from that. The person who summed it up best was the person
who said that this may be the one day I opened myself up to the world. It was.
I don't treat people badly. I just spent the last four hours consoling a WOMAN
who is being forced to go back to Germany. Why? She's my friend and she isn't
a bitch.
Look, pal. I know when I need therapy and I decide when I have it. Stop
trying to play USENET analyst.
Oh, the letter about the cookie and masturbation? Real funny. You are an
example of the type of asshole I was abused by.
If you have to release, release. I at least have the guts to do it.
Dave the Bitter Nice Guy
Sheryl Coppenger
>>
>> For one thing, obesity is the one thing you CAN control!
>
> metabolism? Or are all these heavy people I know secret eaters?
> They eat no more than I do, but I am thin and they remain fat.
> IMHO, your basic weight is largely a matter of genetics.
>
>John Stafford Minnesota State University @ Winona
> All standard disclaimers apply.
I agree. And what I think is more important, the situation and attitude
the original poster is by no means limited to fat people. Change the
word "fat" to "skinny" and the posting could have been written by an
ex-boyfriend of mine. He used to force-feed himself constantly trying
to "bulk up" because he wasn't happy with his appearance. After dinner
we'd sit down on the couch and he'd eat an entire new box of cookies.
Blew my mind. I think part of the reason he started going out with me
is he thought he could find out the secret to gaining weight. :-)
I don't know exactly what the poster's problem is, but I suspect that
weight is not the main part. My ex-bf used to obsess on his lack of weight
and its effects on his life just like this guy obsesses on excess weight
and the effects on his life. He also was a plastic-surgery junkie.
The only trouble was, his appearance had nothing to do with why we're not
together now. His idea of "chivalry" was total control, he was only "nice"
if he thought it would get him something. He used to do petty, mean things
to people. But in his eyes he was a saint -- he would go around saying,
"I'm just too nice" (AND MEAN IT).
I hope the poster is not deceiving himself to the extent that this guy
was, but I think it's high time to get an independent opinion. Find
a good therapist who's going to get help you work though some of this
anger and get you reality-testing some of your self image. And remember
Nobody has to do anything just because you want them to.
Nobody owes you a date/a relationship/happiness. You've got to
earn them every day. And if your currency is low in looks
and money, then you're going to have to make darn sure
your currency is high in personality. Only a mother's love
is unconditional (and sometimes not even then and often only
until "the new wears off"). The poster who said that if all
you had to offer was computers you were in trouble was right.
You are responsible for your own happiness. You can never place your
happiness totally in the control of another person.
Neediness is not terribly attractive, particularly in a person of
short acquaintance.
And as for the guy who suggested exercise and a hair weave, I say
this. It never hurts to work on the appearance, but it's not everything.
There are a lot of ugly people out there as society defines ugly and
most of them are or have been married/had relationships. If only the
beautiful people deserved to date we wouldn't have an overpopulation
problem and "ugly" would have died out by now. Get over it. :-)
--
Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff she...@seas.gwu.edu
The George Washington University (202) 994-6853
Sheryl Coppenger
>In article <MARTINC.93...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu> mar...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
>>Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
>>than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
>
>awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
>This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
>
>To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
>
I think there are a couple of things going on in US society which make
it hard for people to take everything to friends. In addition to the
general competitiveness that someone else mentioned, there's also
1) Mobility. Lots of people are just passing through. In
some areas (like Washington, DC) you can spend several
years making a few close friends and then you move on or
they do. And it's hard to work through a soul-searing
problem long-distance. It's also easier to let your
friends down if you know you'll be moving on and making
new friends soon.
2) The "John Wayne" effect -- male friendships often consist
solely of doing things together. No discussion of emotions
allowed. So men depend upon their SO for all their emotional
needs and it strains the relationship making it even less
likely they will continue to have a SO to handle their
emotional needs. Or the man is so cut off from his feelings
that the SO gets no emotional input at all, feels rejected
and leaves in which case the man shoots her or fires upon
strangers in the nearest fast-food place.
The usual disclaimers about generalization apply.
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> Second opinion: telling people who feel unloved to "seek counseling" and
> walking away is akin to advising a lonely man to go to paid prostitutes. It's
> also a slap in the face and a brutal display of callousness in many situation
> Perhaps people are using the existence of paid counsellors as a convenient wa
> of being shallow fair weather friends.
I am not Dave's friend. I am not walking away from him. I was never there.
I have never walked away from a friend in need. I can't do anything for
Dave from here. And "counseling" stopped being a bad word years ago, Andy.
> Last time I had an emotional crisis, several "friends" dropped me like a h
> potato, telling me they'd be back after I went through "counseling" (like Dav
> I'd just lost a SO). I needed someone to confirm that I was a worthwhile
> person, and instead they all told me that nobody but a paid counsellor would
> bother paying attention to me. It was like having all supports ripped from my
> dwelling at once. Eventually, I found new friends.
There are two issues here. 1) How flipped out must you have been to have
your friends run off? It is human nature to avoid pain, even someone
elses. It is a sad fact, but there it is. I agree with you that good
friends aren't supposed to leave us high and dry when we need them most.
2) A counsellor is trained to help people who are in pain and/or out of
control. Seeing a counselor doesn't mean you don't have any friends. I
get the impression that you find the idea distatesful. Think of it this
way. If your car breaks down, you'd probably seek professional assistance.
Aren't you and your mental health at least as important?
> If someone close to you seems to need help, by all means recommend
> professional help if you think that's what they need. But that is no substitu
> for being there yourself as someone who they can talk to because you care, no
> because it's your job.
Agreed, see above. Studies show that people with strong social support
networks, i.e., supportive friends and relatives, need and seek counseling
less, have fewer bouts of depression, and bounce out of them faster. They
also live longer and healthier lives. There is not good substitute for a
good friend. And a counselor is never meant to substitute a friend. A
counselor/therapist has special skills that allow him/her to help people
help themselves. While a good support network is absolutely necessary for
most people to function and live healthy, happy lives, some people need
to see a professional when they've gone out of control and do not feel
better after a few "talks" with a good friend.
>
> I'm not saying we all have a duty in Dave's case--we don't even know who h
> is, and he hasn't asked anyone to help him--just give it some thought before
> you kick people to the counselor.
Again, you sound as if being "kicked" to a counselor is some sort of
punishment or bad thing. You make it sound as if you see a counselor
only as a last resort when all your friends have failed you. That is
essentially incorrect. As stated above, many times a strong support
network will do the trick. Many times, in spite of having one, people
do not get better, and they must get professional help. I am not
"kicking" Dave anywhere. I am giving him the best advise I can. If
he cannot help himself, if his friends have failed him, if everything
he has tried has not worked, it is foolish not to seek help frmo someone
who can make a big difference in his life.
Your attitude is outdated.
> Andrew Ross Help stamp out mental illness, or I'll kill you!
My sentiments exactly.
Toni
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> Hmmm. Well, again, in general terms, it is one thing to need help and
> another to allow yourself to receive it. I have known people who've
> been abused who refused counseling because they were still going
> through the angry phase. In those situations I've decided the best
> thing to do is to let them be however they are until they are ready to
> receive help.
Precisely. It is Dave's responsibility to do what he can to help himself.
If he is not ready to do so, that is another matter. It does not relieve
him of the responsibility.
Toni
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> What is there to see? I've seen waht I have described. Unless you or
> others can tell me where the non-bitch fairy kingdom is, I choose not
> to see anymore.
It's right here, Dave. It's all over the place. The very first guy I
ever had a crush on <not counting my English teacher when I was in
10th grade> must have weighed 250 lbs. He was a full-back in the
school football team, dummer than hell, and ugly as sin, but he was
kind and I would have gone out with him if he'd ever noticed I was
alive.
The girl that sits on the desk next to me is a very pretty blond
with blue eyes and a slim figure. Her husband, whom she will assure
anyone is the most handsome man in the workd, is a buck-toothed
mutt, 50 lbs. overweight and his mustache is cockeyed. She thinks
he's beautiful. They love each other very much.
Our receptionist is about to marry a Geek-Hall-of-Fame winner.
He is incapable of uttering a word in a social setting. He's
some kind of computer genius, he's not too bad looking, although
he's really short, maybe 5'3" or so. She doesn't care. She
thinks she's got the world's greatest catch.
Our book-keeper has a surfer boyfriend. Very good looking, very
cool, dresses to kill, and he's the greatest asshole it's evern
been my misfortune to sit at the same table with. During "girl-
talk" at the office, everyone, including the poor book-keeper
acknowledges that the other's, ugly, nerdy husbands/boyfriends
and all, are much, much luckier than she.
The majority of women (we're talking about women with IQ's of
75 and above here, Dave, not card-carrying bimbos) are not as
interested in what you look like as who's in there. I'd venture
to say that if a man approached me with your attitude, I don't
care if he looks like Tom Cruise, I'm taking a swift hike!
The way you've expressed yourself on these posts is scary; it's
hostile, angry and defensive. I have no idea if these posts
were just vents and you normally are a gentle man, or if this
is the way you act all the time. If it is, or even if you let
this crap out every once in a while, your trouble with women
doesn't have anything to do with your weight.
I'd be interested to know more.
Toni
Toni Parra-Carrasco
> In article <MARTINC.93...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu> mar...@hatteras.cs.un
> >Second news flash: paid counseling is *much* better at dealing with this
> >than the ministrations of even a non-fair-weather friend.
>
> Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
> awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
> doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
> This is not US bashing, but real lack of cultural understanding.
>
> To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
>
> --
> Thomas Beagle | tho...@datamark.co.nz Work:64 4 2338186 Home:64 4 4993832
> Technical Writer | Love is a state of mind in which loneliness
> Wellington, NZ | overcomes reasoned thought.
Dear Thomas,
I have a very dear, close friend who lives in New Zealand. He has
told me about the state of clinical psychology/psychiatry in your
country. I do not doubt you have reasons for your attitude. Here,
hoever, in the United States, we have managed to elevate the
vodoo-craft to a science. We do not mistreat our mentally ill,
nor do we torture them, nor do we <at least in the psychological
community of which I am part> think of them as any less than us.
It is not high-tech witch doctoring. It is about professionals who
go to school for many, many years to learn how to help others.
Your attitude is prevalent in your country. It is based on
ignorance.
Mental illness is not a "bad word" here any more. "Counseling" is
not something we hide as if we had done something wrong and are
now paying the consequences.
We, Thomas, have evolved past that. Your country will too. In time.
Toni
Jerry Williamson
>That's a big Ann Landers and Dear Abby thing, too. Every problem
>that you have can be solved by counseling. Alcoholic? Join AA!
>Marriage problems? Go see a counselor! Son a homosexual? Go
>see your Priest! These quick and easy newspaper solutions don't
>ever begin to stress the pain and struggle that those with deep
>problems will have to go through before they can move on with
>their lives..
>
>This guy Dave who is angry with women - well - I've felt the
>way he does before. Frustrated, hurt, unable to see what's wrong
>with either yourself or them. Now I didn't go wandering into
>soc.singles and attack the whole offending gender - but I
>definitely feel his pain.
>
>Good luck, man. Out there is the right partner for you - I
>hope you find her soon.
>
This is probably reckless as hell, posting in a group where my experience
is less than twelve hours and have not had to suffer as y'all have had
to. Since I have already been flamed (in the minor sense of the word)
perhaps it is appropriate for a defense....
One poster e-mailed me back regarding the tone of my post and
posting it to a newsgroup where the support structure was pretty
much intact. From most of what people have been posting here, she
is correct; and it was my decision to subscribe in the idea that
perhaps I could learn something.
You are correct that there are some situations where the recommendation
of a qualified professional is damned inappropriate, but this is not
one of them. Why? IMHO this guy's soul was hemmoraging big time.
Perhaps you have a better suggestion on how to help this guy out or
can provide some sort of constructive advice; he might appreciate that.
Hopefully none of us were attempting to trivialize David's experiences
or his pain or anger. The thing that is baffling is the number of
people that (with probably good intentions) tried to give advice
on the symptom (i.e. his dating and love life) rather than that what was
patently obvious, the fact that he was living with a broken life
and finally got fed up and decided to vent. The abuse being the
root cause is the thing that needs attention. No one other than
a qualified professional could help him. If I'm wrong and there is
another avenue for him to take -- let the rest of the world know!
None of this was intended to appear like a quick and easy 'newspaper'
solution. Thirty years or rage, frustration, and rejection will not
be solved in thirty minutes, obviously. Your comment regarding the
pain and struggle that lies ahead is accurate!!!! Even with professional
help Mr. Edsall has a long road to travel if he wants to try and
become whole again and get his life together.
My sincere hope for Dave is that he find his partner, but not before
he learns about love first and that must come from within. It was
obviously not fair that he get stuck with what he is dealing with
now, but not to overuse the cliche 'sometimes life just ain't fair'
is right on. If there was any other advice to be given I would not
even begin to guess where to start since I have not walked in
his shoes and other than genuinely trying to help I am about as clueless
as those that bombarded his post picking apart his profanity
while ignoring the cause for it all.
Take care,
Jerry Williamson
Neither do I.
BTW there is no such thing as do-it-yourselfers regarding this.
Dentists do not pull their own teeth, and priests do not hear
their own confessions. The help the Mr. Edsall requires can only
be gleaned from a professional. There are probably things in his
head that still need to come out that might just scare to death
the few friends he has, no matter how well-intentioned they might
be. A professional counselor will be in better position to help
because of his/her objectivity.
Rob Geraghty
>easy, dammit! Who the hell ever said life was easy? So it's not fair
>that you can't just live however you want (i.e., be fat) and still find
>true love. Maybe it's not fair. But then, I wonder what your basis for
>comparison is. (A point if you know the origin of that line.)
Well, I watched a video the other night which featured that line
(interesting coincidence). Another couple of interesting lines:
"Them's my rightful property! It's not fair!"
"No, it isn't. But that's the way it is."
Losing weight may not be the solution. But if it what's causing the
angst then maybe it's worth considering. I think the anger being
expressed has a lot of other sources however. You can't go around
hating the world and expecting to get love in return! Can love suddenly
make all the anger you are carrying around dissappear? I don't think
so. Is anyone going to be attracted to such an angry person? I don't
think so either.
Rob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Geraghty | 3 things are important to me
ro...@citr.uq.oz.au | The gift of love, the joy of life
CITR | And the making of music in all its forms
Charles R. Martin
In article <MARTINC.93...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu>, mar...@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes...
> To paraphrase someone, don't you have friends?
>
>Gee, Thomas, there are so many false assumptions here that I don't know
>where to start. Hmmm, let's take two of them:
>
>(1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
> description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
> years to accumulating, and a professional career including
> internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
> effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
> people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
> disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
> ignorant.
Well, ok, maybe "mountebank who believes his own bullshit" is a
more accurate term. On the American west coast, high-falutin'
"training programs" exist to lend credibility to astrologers,
scientologists, aromatherapists and tarot readers as well. Does that
mean they have any more to offer than your average fly-by-night faith
healer?
Do you happen to know Ed Wright? Do you happen to *be* Ed Wright?
In any case, I think I'd just refer y9ou to the scientific literature --
there is increasingly good evidence, for example, that both
talking-therapy and drugs help severe depression, and that talking
therapy *and* drugs work even better yet. Strong evidence that talking
therapy works quite well, thanks. Beyond that is my personal experience
and that of many others.
As far as your experience goes, well, pretty well everyone I've ever met
who reported what you report turned out to have gone to therapist after
therapist and said "I'm fucked up and nobody can help me" after which
the therapist said "I think you believe that; okay, get used to it.
Fifty bucks please."
--
Charles R. Martin/(Charlie)/mar...@cs.unc.edu/Dept. of Computer Science/CB
#3175 UNC-CH/Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3175/3611 University Dr #13M/Durham, NC
27707/(919) 419 1754/So draw the sword. It stands in stone, awaiting mortal
touch. .... It is your right. We all are Uther's children thus./
Charles R. Martin
Xref: borg.cs.unc.edu alt.support.big-folks:1882 alt.romance:37846 alt.support:4280 soc.singles:147304
OK lets be honest here. Counseling can help some people, but not if they
dont want to help themselves. There is NO WAY around this.
Precisely: if you really make that first step, there're a lot of people
around who can help. Until you do, nobody can.
Bear Giles
In article <edsall.7...@pv7411.vincent.iastate.edu>, eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) writes:
>
> I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. I started with
> chivalry. You know, knights. Fair maidens. Never give her up. That kind of
> stuff. I talked to you women. I asked you what you wanted. I tried to be
> the kind of person you said you wanted.
I went through this trash, and it is unfortunately rather common but
generally unrecognized for the shit it is.
-------------------------
CHIVARY IS A TRAP FOR MEN
-------------------------
I don't mean that men shouldn't display the occasional chivarous behavior,
but "knights and maidens and slain dragons" is a fantasy for women!
In brief, you start with a boy and a codependent mother who is unhappy
because her husband has abandoned her. Most often, this is a literal
abandonment, but in my cause my father fled my mother's clinginess my
working long hours "to provide for the family."
The mother turns her emotional needs to her son, especially her oldest
son, but of course a child can't fulfill the needs of an adult. The
boy senses he has "failed" his mother in some sense.
Now girls his own age enter a "romantic era" period where they dream of
being fair maidens rescued from the dragon by a handsome knight in shining
armor -- a knight who incidently doesn't display the normal animal rutting
common in males :-). The girls will outgrow this and find more mature
models to interaction with men, but the boy will internalize this as
"what women really want."
Does this sound familiar, David?
In all likelihood, if the boy brings this up with his mother she will claim
that _she_ needs a knight in shining armor. She means a combination of a
return to a more innocent age and a man with enough money to eliminate
her financial concerns, but of course this is beyond a boy.
The boy grows up and tries being chivarous, but HE'S NOT INTERACTING
WITH THE WOMAN! He's playing out a script to rescue his mother, but
the woman is not his mother and the script is wrong anyway! She,
understandably, gets pissed and the man doesn't understand why the woman
rejected him because in his world women always want knights, not the
knaves they hook up with instead.
Occasionally a relationship forms anyway, and it appears that relationship
is doomed. I am in one where I was more gentlemanly than wise (I should
have dumped her every six months :-), and while the relationship deepened
it also appears she now has me cast in a "father" role which has effectively
closed off the relationship from here. She confesses her love, but always
finds a reason to avoid coming to Denver... and if I visit her she'll pick
fights (while denying it) to have an excuse to keep me at arms length.
After all, the "knight" never demands sex even if he's been slaying dragons
for this woman for the last three years while she demanded space to get
her act together and then "oh gee, I moved in with Joe whom I met two
weeks ago!"
--
Bear Giles
be...@cs.colorado.edu/fsl.noaa.gov
Marcia
>
As other people have mentioned, yes, I have friends. I value them, I lean on
them, they lean on me.
But they have lives. They can't always be there when I need someone. They
can't just drop what they are doing and come around. And I can't do that for
them. I can do my very best to be there, but sometimes the timing is just
not there.
And there are certain types of problems, like alcoholism, that I am not
equipped to deal with either intellectually or emotionally. I could try, but
I know I am not the right person, and would likely get caught in some
destructive circle.
Sometimes you just need a paid professional who has no other kind of
relationship to lay the ugly truth out on the table. Or one who has the
skills to deal with very serious problems.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcia Bednarcyk ADDRESSES: mar...@netcom.com
"Sweaty Snugglebunnies." m...@cisco.com
Marcia
>Can you honestly say you've never said anything in the privacy of your
>own home that you wouldn't want people to hear you say in a grocery
>store?
I sure have said things alone, in the privacy of my own home.
However, USENET, with its tens of thousands of readers, is NOT the privacy
of anyone's home. Not even the privacy of the average shopping mall. Or a
even a good sized town.
Jerry Williamson
>In article <1993Jul19....@dvorak.amd.com> je...@diablo.amd.com (Jerry Williamson) writes:
>>
>>Some things are within your control though. Women are turned off
>>more by excessive weight than either baldness of height. Why?
>>For one thing, obesity is the one thing you CAN control!
>
>How do you know what "women" as a group are turned off by?
You are right, I don't.
Over-generalization acknowledged. To correctly re-phrase (and perhaps
disqualify myself) 'Many of the women I have known and have spoken
with are turned off .....'
>
>You don't speak for me. I LIKE fat men. And I like fat bald men.
More power to you. This world would be a better place without the
superficiality, but being a realist this 'ain't gonna happen in my
life or yours'. Your ability to transcend this puts you among the
elite as far as character goes or whatever it is called...
>It has nothing to do with "control."
Regarding the issue of control, this was on the errant assumption
that David was dissatisfied with his appearance. My advice, had he
been happy with his appearance, would not have been to say anything.
He needs self-acceptance and losing the weight will not help him one
iota. This comment was more directed towards the associated health
risks that he has and will have later on. [I know the flames will
be flying at that one since y'all are probably damn sick of people
telling you about health issues, etc.]
Kenn Barry
>there is increasingly good evidence, for example, that both
>talking-therapy and drugs help severe depression, and that talking
>therapy *and* drugs work even better yet. Strong evidence that talking
>therapy works quite well, thanks.
I'm unaware of studies showing the efficacy of talk therapies.
What sort of studies were done? Long-term following of patients and a
control group, I assume? Sample sizes? No loaded questions here, I'm
genuinely curious. Only study of that sort I've heard of was a study of
Freudian analysis, specifically. It failed to find evidence of benefit.
Kayembee
Jerry Williamson
In article <edsall.7...@pv7411.vincent.iastate.edu> eds...@iastate.edu (David M Edsall) writes:
> You know, the net REALLY amazes me at times. I feel a hell of a lot better
>about myself today. I've gotten some really supportive feedback and have
>skipped the others ( my choice to read, just as it was your choice ). I got
>a lot off my chest the last two days. I'm glad I did it. And for all the people
>reading women hating into my post, go back and re-read it. I directed my
>comments, as I say now, for the third time, to those women who fit the
>description.
> Since when can ANYONE analyze what I need and don't need on the basis of
>one post? This letter makes it sound like I better be locked up in a funny
Not to glorify your spewing but believe me, one post was more than plenty
thank you. Go back and reread your own garbage.
>farm. I am far from that. The person who summed it up best was the person
No, not a funny farm. Counseling, group therapy, whatever it is that
can make you feel better about yourself (including taking shots at
the very people who took some time out to try and give some advice)
might work. If you do not want any of our help you have the option of not
posting.
>I don't treat people badly.
Except for us USENET analysts -- almost forgot.
>I just spent the last four hours consoling a WOMAN
Well hooray for Mr. Clean.
>who is being forced to go back to Germany. Why? She's my friend and she isn't
>a bitch.
How much did it take for her to prove she was not a such-and-so?
>
> Look, pal. I know when I need therapy and I decide when I have it. Stop
>trying to play USENET analyst.
As soon as you stop playing USENET psychiatric patient.
> Oh, the letter about the cookie and masturbation?
Excuse me, what letter about what? Go reread the posts and check again
since you are obviously confusing me for someone else.
Besides using food is not my idea of erotic -- you may
want to check out alt.sex.masturbation.epicurean.delights.chocolate-chip
if you want info on that topic.
>Real funny. You are an
>example of the type of asshole I was abused by.
Sell it somewhere else. You vented, you got flamed, some of us including
me took time out to publicly post and (me at least) to privately
respond to try and lend a hand to someone who obviously needed it and
still does. I have nothing else to offer so unless you want to
get deposited into the old killfile (which for me would be a first--
right now it's empty and my views on censorship will dictate that it
remain so, for now)
> If you have to release, release. I at least have the guts to do it.
Oh I see it, the oldest manipulation trick in the book. Sorry to say it
but IMNSHO it's people like you who are good at manipulation since you
are experts from getting it on the receiving end.
Misery loves company, so I regret to inform you that I will not
be of much company. I had a happy family life growing up which is
what you wish you had. No one can buy it back. (God knows why
I am still trying to help, maybe it's cuz I like wasting time
with ingrates. Couldn't resist, but you asked for it.)
t
>
>
> Dave the Bitter Nice Guy
This is obvious.
My killfile has its first entry, congratulations.
John Altinbay
>>
>>(1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
>> description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
>> years to accumulating, and a professional career including
>> internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
>> effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
>> people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
>> disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
>> ignorant.
>
> Well, ok, maybe "mountebank who believes his own bullshit" is a more
>accurate term. On the American west coast, high-falutin' "training programs"
>exist to lend credibility to astrologers, scientologists, aromatherapists and
>tarot readers as well. Does that mean they have any more to offer than your
>average fly-by-night faith healer?
> Head-shrinking has only existed for the past hundred years, and people got
>along pretty much ok before that. Non-americans don't go into therapy every
>time someone farts, and they're no more messed up than we are. Ever consider
>that maybe it's just another plot by the privileged class to con us out of our
>money?
People got along pretty nuch OK before "head-shrinking"? Do tell.
The fact that some people are into "going into therapy every time someone
farts" doesn't make it worthless for those who go into it for good reason.
You're right. Non-Americans *don't* go into therapy a lot. It's bad
enough here with people like you, who like to denigrate it for whatever
their agenda is. Over there, they have a much worse opinion of it and
those who go into therapy. Societally, perhaps they are no more messed
up than we are. Sad, isn't it?
> I went through three "therapists" a while back. Most of what they told me
>were variations on "Get used to it. That'll be $50 please" and "Isn't it
>significant that you eat your carrots sliced up?". None of them did me as much
>good as simply getting laid did. In fact, their existence may have screwed
>things up for me more, since in this country people are encouraged to share
>only good times with others, and to drop them like potatoes during the bad
>times.
Sorry you had bad experiences. I'll acknowledge that there are a lot
of bad ones around. But then there are also bad programmers, bad
managers, bad realtors, bad ball players. How come no one bitches about
ball players as a group, but it's fair game for therapists?
> Whatever happened to the "therapy" of simply having a good support
>network that's there for you in times of stress, not because you pay them, but
>because there's this thing called caring for each other? Knowing that you have
>people who care about you is the best therapy of all.
Your support system is an improtant and integral part of the process.
May everyone find a great support system.
> Anything the
>headshrinkers give you is merely expensive common sense.
> Or are most Americans finally lacking in that too?
>
I guess you've done an extensive study of the therapy process, since
you know this to be a fact.
--
John Altinbay - alti...@netcom.com
===============================================================
There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me
My life is worth the living, I don't need to see the end.
John Altinbay
>
>That's a big Ann Landers and Dear Abby thing, too. Every problem
>that you have can be solved by counseling. Alcoholic? Join AA!
>Marriage problems? Go see a counselor! Son a homosexual? Go
>see your Priest! These quick and easy newspaper solutions don't
>ever begin to stress the pain and struggle that those with deep
>problems will have to go through before they can move on with
>their lives..
>
Oh, yeah, seeing a counsellor and joining AA are quick and easy.
This was a joke, right?
>This guy Dave who is angry with women - well - I've felt the
>way he does before. Frustrated, hurt, unable to see what's wrong
>with either yourself or them. Now I didn't go wandering into
>soc.singles and attack the whole offending gender - but I
>definitely feel his pain.
>
I've felt that way before, and I feel his anger, too. So,
apparently, do a lot of people, since they've been quite supportive
in their advice and suggestions. Those who write throwing away
therapy on whatever basis aren't doing him any service.
>Good luck, man. Out there is the right partner for you - I
>hope you find her soon.
>
Isn't "there's a right person for you" a quick and easy Hollywood
solution?
>--
>Danno - da...@is.morgan.com - The opinions expressed here
>(blah, blah, blah) are mine (blah, blah, blah) and do not
>necessarily reflect (blah, blah, blah) my employers' beliefs.
>
>Sam : "I always like to give my waitresses a severence *boink*."
>Diane: "Or the cash equivalent. Which in your case is $1.49."
>
Muttley
> Can you honestly say you've never said anything in the privacy of your
> own home that you wouldn't want people to hear you say in a grocery
> store?
Yes, I can. But then, my life's so damned public around here that I
might as well announce everything I say or do in the grocery store, people'll
find out anyway....
Mike
--
+------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Michael Simone | Smash forehead on keyboard to continue. |
| Muttley, Canis Egocentricus | Illiterate? Write for free help! |
| msi...@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu | My reality check just bounced. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
My views are absolute fact and not to be disputed.
Muttley
> (1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
> description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
Oh, yes it it. I thought it to be most appropriate, in fact I mailed it
to a Dr. Simone J. Simone, who also liked it, and she is one of those Hi-tech
witch doctors. (If the name is familiar, then you know why I felt safe mailing
it to her.)
> years to accumulating, and a professional career including
> internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
> effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
> people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
> disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
> ignorant.
But they do their jobs, you're right. So do astrologists. Not to flame
psychologists, or anything, but I lost hope in the entire profession when a Dr.
Finichel, in a textbook that is required right here at KSU for a PhD in psych,
"The woman's sneezing fits were caused by her nose being her fantasized penis,
and her sneezing fits being orgasms." It's assholes like that who give the
profession a bad rap. And he is required reading.
Mutt, being a dick. Please ignore me....
Pooh
>In article <1993Jul19.1...@apple.com> po...@apple.com (Pooh) writes:
>>
>>Thomas, I can appreciate your perspective, but most people just
>>aren't *trained* to do the kind of talking that a person
>>in pain really requires. Professionals who are paid to
>>listen, who don't have a personal interest in the problem,
>>and who are well versed in coping techniques will do someone
>>a much greater service than a friend who just hands you
>>a bottle of whisky and a shoulder to cry on (not that
>>there's anything wrong with that; you could probably use both).
>
>I disagree. I work for a center against Rape and Domestic Violence.
>I'm an advocate. I'm not a therpaist, but I have had training in
>acive listening. The agency I work for is made up of peers, not
>professionals making a buck off people in pain, and we've
>accomplished some major miracles.
You miss my point. You had training, which is more than most
friends have, and you are in a center that specializes in
certain techniques to handle people in pain. It is not
the complete education that professionals have and charge
for (I've worked in three crisis centers myself), but
it's better than being completely untrained, inexperienced
and constitutionally unsuited to helping others through
crisis. Volunteers who work at such centers have already
pre-selected themselves; they WANT to do this kind of work.
Then they get training to help them do that. Your average
good buddy doesn't have any of that, and it's unfair to both
of you to try to expect him to handle it.
As for "making a buck off people in pain," I believe that's
exactly what doctors do too. I don't see why any kind
of professional shouldn't be paid for his expertise.
Pooh
po...@apple.com
Muttley
>
> I have a very dear, close friend who lives in New Zealand. He has
> told me about the state of clinical psychology/psychiatry in your
> country. I do not doubt you have reasons for your attitude. Here,
> hoever, in the United States, we have managed to elevate the
> vodoo-craft to a science.
You've never lived with a shrink, have you? Hmmm? You've met them in the
office (either working with them, or being a client, neither of which is a bad
thing, even if I am partial to clients, as they keep me fed, clothed, housed,
and schooled), but have you met them at home? They talk about their clients.
They all do. They don't mention names, that would be unethical, but they tell
their families and friends all the fucked-up things people do. They laugh at
these people that they're supposed to be helping. This is not an isolated case,
either. I've seen swarms of them (in my living room, usually while I'm trying to
read the paper, eat breakfast, or anything else that requires minding my own
business enough that no-one realizes that I'm there.), all laughing and carrying
on about nutjobs they deal with. Still feel safe with them?
They also fuck with your mind. I once had a whole gaggle of them
intentionally fuck with me, just because they wanted to see how long it would
take to make me crack under pressure. (Not very long, they're good.) Trained
professionals, ha.
> It is not high-tech witch doctoring. It is about professionals who
> go to school for many, many years to learn how to help others.
Go to school for many many years to earn little pieces of paper on the
wall that say that you have to pay them $120/hr for the privilesge of being
laughed at behind your back.
> Your attitude is prevalent in your country. It is based on
> ignorance.
A bit jingoistic, are we?
> Mental illness is not a "bad word" here any more. "Counseling" is
> not something we hide as if we had done something wrong and are
> now paying the consequences.
No, you're right. We can't hide it. When you have to get a second
mortgage on the house to finance your getting laughed at behind your back habit,
that's kinda hard to hide.
> We, Thomas, have evolved past that. Your country will too. In time.
We, Toni, have been brainwashed into thinking that paying people to sit
and take notes and read your horoscope to you is a perfectly fine thing to do.
Mike
Oded Feingold (you oafish oaf)
Jerry Williamson, in the matter of Dave Edsall:
--------------------
> He needs self-acceptance and losing the weight will not help
> him one iota.
I do not agree. The effort, discipline and self-affirmation involved
in losing weight (or converting fat to muscle), will help him many
iotas.
But I agree with an implied message. His weight is not the central
problem in lack of success with women. It's his attitude.
People have themselves, they have their wounds, they have routines
(some neurotic) for easing their way through life. If Mr. Edsall's
routines are such that nobody gets past them, including (especially)
himself, and he keeps his wounds open and suppurating as a gambit to
steal guilt, like the beggars in Bombay, he could be as cute as
Charlie Martin(tm) and still get nowhere with women. Conversely, if
his attitude somehow changes, he could be as ugly as I and be unable
to beat them off with a stick.
Thomas Beagle
>
>Article <1993Jul19.08...@datamark.co.nz>, (Thomas Beagle) sez -
>
>> Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
>> awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>> doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>
> misrepresentation that leads most Europeans to
> beleive that a high percentage of Americans
> spend time, reclining on a couch, reliving
> their wonder years for a bearded doctor with
> an eastern european accent ?
Well, I've had many interesting responses to my posting, ranging from
"You're just ignorant" to "Yes, why do they/we behave like that?"
Thanks to all those who've posted and mailed me, it looks like I might
be spending the rest of the night responding to them!
As for the whole thing being based on false perceptions, I was basing
my post on the posts I have seen in various news groups over the last
few years. Many people seem quite happy to tell someone else to "go to
a therapist" or "get professional help" even if they've never met
them.
If someone asked me for help I would never even consider suggesting
that they should go to a therapist. The idea simply wouldn't occur to me.
--
Thomas Beagle | tho...@datamark.co.nz Work:64 4 2338186 Home:64 4 4993832
Technical Writer |
Wellington, NZ | On the net, no one has know you're a dog.
Thomas Beagle
>
>> Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
>> awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>> doctor to help them make sense of the world?
>(1) "high tech ... witch-doctor" is not a very appropriate or realistic
> description of someone who devotes at least two or three post-grad
> years to accumulating, and a professional career including
> internship and practice refining, skills that enable them to
> effectively challenge and modify people's belief systems (with the
> people's co-operation). It also has at least a connotation of
> disbelief in the effectiveness of therapy, which I believe is simply
> ignorant.
A few years is not much when compared to a witch doctor who may have
been dedicated to the job for most of their lives. I'm also not
particularly impressed by learned priests who may have spent years
studying their mythology.
I used the term "high tech ... witch-doctor" for a reason. It seems to
me that as the 'primitive' person is brought up to put their faith in
the witch-doctor, so are 'civilised' people instructed to put their
faith in the therapist. The "high tech" part was mainly referring to
the scientific basis that therapists claim underlies their work.
As for the disbelief in therapy, I'm not sure. I was fascinated to
read the following from a bbook that wasn't really about psycho
therapy at all:
"...they conceived of a tidy little experiment, contrasting those
patients who received therapy with those who recognised they had
problems but were still waiting for professional help, thus arriving
at a nice numerical index of psychotherapy's utility. That was the
intention, in any case.
To say they were horrified by what they found is a little strong -
amazed, worried, amused, disturbed - you could use any of those.
Because what they found was that there was /no/ difference: "The
therapy patients did not improve significantly more than the waiting
list controls," they reported in the /Journal of Counseling
Psychology/. In both groups about a third had stayed the same, a third
had deteriorated, and a third had gotten better."
Now, I'm not saying that I'm convinced by this or anything, but I did
find it very interesting. References can be supplied...
>(2) No matter how many friends we have, it's unlikely that they are
> somehow blessed with the special skills needed to effect the kinds
> of change therapy can make.
This assumes that the change needed is caused by therapy and it
assumes that special skills are needed to do it.
Now I admit that I may be a special case. It seems that I am one of
the lucky few who was not molested or mistreated as a child. It also
seems that I have not been treated overly cruelly by those around me
or the circumstances of life.
On the other hand, I do not feel that I am a perfect human being.
Because of this, over the last few years I have changed the way I
think and feel. I have more self-confidence than I used to and I like
to feel that I am more empathic (not so sure if this is true on the
net...)
A close friend of mine also helped change some of my more obnoxious
personality traits (don't worry folks, I've still got heaps left! :-).
For example, I used to put people down a lot. In theory this was the
traditional style male-bonding stuff but I went to far. He helped me
realise this and I am not as bad at this as I was.
This is at least partly why I have faith in people being able to
change themselves, possibly gaining some help from friends.
Anyway, I've received some fascinating email both from supporters of
therapy and from opponents. Thanks to all, it's made interesting
reading. Obviously some people feel that therapy has helped them a lot
while others feel that it is a waste of time.
Thomas Beagle
>Why are some people so much against the idea of therapy? If your car
>develops a problem, who do you take it to: a friend or a professional
>auto mechanic? If your TV develops a problem, who do you take it to:
>a friend or a professional TV repair person? If your computer develops
>a problem, who do you take it to: a friend or a professional computer
>repair person?
>So why is it any different when it comes to human beings? You think
>a computer is complicated enough that it's worth paying money to a
>professional to care for it, yet you think a human being's psyche
>is so simple that any Joe who's known you for a while can take a crack
>at fixing it?
Perhaps it's because I don't think you can just swap cards to fix a
mind? If a therapist could just run a few diagnostics and patch the
code or replace the worn springs I don't think there'd be any question
about me supporting them or not. Unfortunately I think minds are a
little less mechanical than you seem to think.
If my mind gets 'broken' I do take it to an expert - particularly a
friend who is currently living in Japan and who probably knows me
better than anyone else in the world.
Joel Mjeung
get a date... Hmm, I suggested it as A method to improving yourself and
A step to gaining self-esteem (which is a very IMPORTANT factor
for yourself and your SOTB (SO To BE or NOT to BE)). NO self-esteem,
no go.. you panic.. you are insecure... you end up not cranking up the
engine of LOVE/DEVOTION/LUST(?) and hurting yourself in the process.
Been there, done that! ;)
Besides, I KNOW guys who look worse than me get real nice girls. Looks
ain't everything, and looks sure don't prolong a relationship (it may
start one). My fault is that I used to (maybe still am. Gawd I hope not!)
a "mexican jumping bean". I would try several girls, get utterly confused
and end up with "nada". I don't know, I don't start out with the intention
of "multiple hooks" (out of 10, at least 1 method). My heart just gets
divided as it goes... A sign of IMMATURITY? *shrug*
Joel
Jennifer J. Sullivan
In a previous article, o...@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold you oafish oaf)) says:
>
>Jerry Williamson, in the matter of Dave Edsall:
>--------------------
>> He needs self-acceptance and losing the weight will not help
>> him one iota.
>
>I do not agree. The effort, discipline and self-affirmation involved
>in losing weight (or converting fat to muscle), will help him many
>iotas.
If he lost the weight, maybe he could stop blaming it for his
problems and realize its his ATTITUDE that is turning women off the
most.
>
>But I agree with an implied message. His weight is not the central
>problem in lack of success with women. It's his attitude.
>
>[some deleted]
>
--
JJ Nice Young Lady (tm)
and Woody the Crazy TB
and Tigi the Elegant White Kitty at Mom's House
alix
>You've never lived with a shrink, have you? Hmmm? You've met them in the
>office (either working with them, or being a client, neither of which is a bad
>thing, even if I am partial to clients, as they keep me fed, clothed, housed,
>and schooled), but have you met them at home? They talk about their clients.
>They all do. They don't mention names, that would be unethical, but they tell
>their families and friends all the fucked-up things people do. They laugh at
>these people that they're supposed to be helping.[...]
well, i have. lived with a shrink. i used to be a shrink-in-
training myself. we certainly talked about clients at home,
yes. and in fact we sometimes laughed. we sometimes made bad
jokes.
when i worked as a paramedic, the number of bad jokes "at the
expense" of patients was even higher.
something you're probably overlooking is that dealing with
people in pain is very emotionally draining. most people who
go into professions like that are already rather empathetic,
and therefore are quite affected by others' pain. making bad
jokes and laughing are defensive mechanisms; they slow down
burn-out. they are a way to vent all the many frustrations
people in the social and health services feel because of all
the misery they're exposed to every day. you distance your-
self from the pain by making fun of it.
that is not to say that there are not charlatans out there
in the therapy field. and it's also not to say that therapy
is the be-all and end-all. i just wanted to point out that
there is an alternative explanation for the fact that many
people in professions that deal with pain laugh about it when
at home and crack jokes, rather than assuming that they are
all callous bastards who're in the profession to get their
jollies. there are much easier ways to get one's jollies; i
can guarantee you that.
-alix
Philip Stephens
Thomas Beagle wrote:
>Why are Americans so hung up on therapy? Are their lives really so
>awful that they can't function without a high-tech form of witch
>doctor to help them make sense of the world?
Actually, I could reverse that question and ask why Australians rarely go
to a counsellor, and the answer would be the same: it's part of the culture!
When I visited America a few months back, I couldn't believe how getting
therapy was the "in thing" for sorting out people's problems--it would never
have occurred to me to go in for counselling if I had an emotional or
psychological problem, I'd just try to sort it out myself, and talk to
friends and family about it. But the idea that only a counsellor is going to
be able to help seems to be very deeply rooted in the American psyche.
Whether that's a good or bad thing, I don't know; all I know is that it's
different! :-)
--
| Philip Stephens, Systems Programmer. | %%%% % Labtam Australia Pty Ltd |
| Address: 43 Malcolm Road, Braeside, | % % % % "Applied Ingenuity" |
| Victoria, 3195, AUSTRALIA. | % % % % We make the fastest RISC |
| Internet: phi...@labtam.labtam.oz.au | %%%%% %%%%% X terminals in the world |
Charles R. Martin
I don't have all the stuff at hand; if no one else responds I can dig a
bit. The studies dealt largely with cognitive therapy as I recall,
followed up for a year or more, and were reported in the last two years.
I've heard of the analysis studies, but as I recall they quantified
effects pretty coarsely, i.e., not much attempt to deal with improvement
in quality of life, just with "cure" vs. "not cure". Since many kinds
of psychological problems are very rarely _cured_ (think about
alcoholism, for example) this may not be a good measure. AA appears to
be *very* effective at improving the quality of life of alcoholics, but
if you rate it in terms of number of cures they'd (a) laugh at you and
(b) not score all that high.
Todd Heatherton
> I'm unaware of studies showing the efficacy of talk therapies.
>What sort of studies were done? Long-term following of patients and a
>control group, I assume? Sample sizes? No loaded questions here, I'm
>genuinely curious. Only study of that sort I've heard of was a study of
>Freudian analysis, specifically. It failed to find evidence of benefit.
>
> Kayembee
Actually, there is pretty good evidence that some types of
therapy are very successful. There is much more to therapy
than "Freudian" therapy (not that you would get this from
watching pop-media). In particular, a very long-term study
comparing different treatments for chronic depression (a
multi-site study involving many therapists and many cities)
found that cognitive-behavioral therapy and drug therapy
were about equally effective. Psychoanalytic therapy (aka
Freudian) was somewhat less effective. A simple answer is
that different therapies are successful for different sorts
of conditions. While Psychoanalysis might be useful for
a neurotic, it would be totally ineffective for schizophrenia
or bipolar depression (where drugs would be much more effective).
For eating disorders it seems that interpersonal psychotherapy
(focusing on the relationships that people have, self-acceptance,
and social support) seems to be gaining popularity. As usual,
individual mileage may vary.
BTW, I am not a clinician (nor do I play one on tv), but
I am an active researcher in the area and I've read a lot
of the research literature.
Todd Heatherton
Dept. of Psychology
Harvard University
Cambridge, MA 02138
STella
>More power to you. This world would be a better place without the
>superficiality, but being a realist this 'ain't gonna happen in my
>life or yours'. Your ability to transcend this puts you among the
>elite as far as character goes or whatever it is called...
Yo, Jerry. Free clue ahead!
When I look at my pudgy husband, I don't think "my, I must transcend
my feeling about his weight and display my considerable character by
appreciating him in spite of his fat" -- my knees go weak, my
lustglands start pumping out hormones, and I think "Wow, I'm really
lucky to have such a yummy man in my life."
I am not transcending anything -- I LIKE his body, I LUST his body,
and the fact that there's a wonderful person inside his body is ONLY
part of it -- I don't love him in spite of his weight, I love HIM.
Which includes a belly that makes a wonderful pillow....
Fact is, there ARE men that I have to transcend their looks to love --
the aggressively fit folk that make me think they spend more time on
their outsides than their insides. (Yes, I know better, but this is a
prejudice that I have to transcend, unlike my attitude toward men with
lovely bellies, love handles, and a little well-marbled MEAT on 'em.)
>He needs self-acceptance and losing the weight will not help him one
>iota. This comment was more directed towards the associated health
>risks that he has and will have later on. [I know the flames will
>be flying at that one since y'all are probably damn sick of people
>telling you about health issues, etc.]
You know, I see this as a smoker, and I see this as a fat person --
people who don't share my possibly-health-relevant trait assume that I
have never HEARD the rumor that being fat might not be good for me,
that being addicted to cigarettes might have a downside. You know
what, though? I heard that! Really. It is not strictly necessary to
bust a gut getting this new information to me....
STe...@netcom.com How many slick willies does it take to build a
khaki closet?
1016 E. ElCam, #302, 94087 One.
Kim Baggett
I feel like one, but I know I'm not. I am going through a divorce that
is leaving us both feeling very bitter about each others gender and we're
dealing with the pain in separate ways.
I just wanted to say that regardless of our past of good and bad, we never
expected the other to take responsibility for each other's happiness. I
am responsible for my own feelings, whether happy or sad. If I allow myself
to succumb to the judgement of others, be they friend, relative, coworker,
then I am not living my life; I'd be living their perception of what my
life should be.
My heart goes out to you.
Kim
David Sheppard
In article <1993Jul18...> g...@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>In article <...> to...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Toni Parra-Carrasco) writes:
>>I urge you to get counseling. The problem is never what's going on
>>around us or being done "to" us. It's how we're handling it.
>
>I don't agree with this completely. For example, if someone is
>physically abusing someone else, it's unfair to say that the problem
>is (strictly) with the abusee.
>--gregbo
Certainly, if unilateral abuse *IS* going on, then there usually
needs to be some kind of intervention. In this case, however, it
sounds like the bulk of the abuse is IN THE PAST. As adults. we
usually participate and co-create our own private hells and
heavens.
Many of us live in fear-restricted worlds, nearly strangled by our own
emotional scars. If we want to get beyond this pain and fear, and
have a chance at some kind of happiness and fulfillment, we must accept
some kind of responsibility.
By responsibility, I saying that no one else is going to FIX your
world for you. How can they? They don't know what it's like inside
your world. Sharing what your world is *really* like is intimacy,
and opening to this kind of vulnerability is extremely difficult in
the face of fear.
In short: If you don't like your current world, *change* it!
You CAN get help, but rarely does ranting and hating bring any
kind of positive change. I needed to accept and love myself...
damage and all. Impossible? No... necessary! Change comes from
within, even though assistance and love *can* come from "without".
Our environments point us into the most painful places inside
ourselves so that we have an opportunity to overcome our past hurt
and heal ourselves. These are the most painful lessons anyone
has ever faced. If they aren't difficult enough, you'll find
something even more challenging. So goes life and growth.
Peace to you, Dave, may you find love within--
--and then be better able to let it in from outside...
--das dave
John Altinbay
>
> You've never lived with a shrink, have you? Hmmm? You've met them in the
>office (either working with them, or being a client, neither of which is a bad
>thing, even if I am partial to clients, as they keep me fed, clothed, housed,
>and schooled), but have you met them at home? They talk about their clients.
>They all do. They don't mention names, that would be unethical, but they tell
>their families and friends all the fucked-up things people do. They laugh at
>these people that they're supposed to be helping. This is not an isolated case,
>either. I've seen swarms of them (in my living room, usually while I'm trying to
>read the paper, eat breakfast, or anything else that requires minding my own
>business enough that no-one realizes that I'm there.), all laughing and carrying
>on about nutjobs they deal with. Still feel safe with them?
OK. How about medical doctors? A lot of them won't even treat you
well *in front of you*. Do you feel safe with them? Let's not go
see any medical doctors!
Look, anyone who laughs at other people's problems really shouldn't
be practicing medicine or psychiatry. But then, inappropriate
attitudes haven't stopped people from being in *any* trade, and
lots, if not all, trades, have major assholes in them.
It's just that therapists are fair game, because in our society,
it's OK to laugh at people with emotional problems.
> They also fuck with your mind. I once had a whole gaggle of them
>intentionally fuck with me, just because they wanted to see how long it would
>take to make me crack under pressure. (Not very long, they're good.) Trained
>professionals, ha.
>
So report them and expose them. See my comment above.
>
> Go to school for many many years to earn little pieces of paper on the
>wall that say that you have to pay them $120/hr for the privilesge of being
>laughed at behind your back.
>
>
...and so on and so on...
I've removed all groups but soc.singles from the follow up line,
because I'm reading this in alt.support, which is about being
supportive of people. Maybe soc.singles likes reading diatribes
from those who know it all and are superior. Posts with such
attitudes are not supportive of anyone. Sorry if you at soc.singles
don't want to read that stuff, either.