Listen! Nice Guys.

Celebok

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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Pearl wrote:
>
> My advice for nice guys is as followings:
>
[snip]

You know, the funny thing is, I've been doing all of these things
(except reading women's magazines) ever since I decided I'm not going to
look for a girlfriend!

--Lt. Cmdr. Celebok

http://home.earthlink.net/~celebok

Milt

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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On 2 Jul 1997, Kevin S Douglas wrote:

:Pearl wrote:
:>
:> My advice for nice guys is as followings:

:>
:> 1. Be yourself
:
:Good so far.
:
:> 2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
:> her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.
:
:What a joke. Is this really how you want the men you like to treat
:you? I suggest the opposite, if you romantic intentions make those
:clear from the beginning, it's honest and you'll save a lot of time
:(whichever way it goes).

That's silly. Why do you separate friendship and romance. For a serious
LTR, friendship is more important than romance. YOu can build on
friendship. How do you build on romance? That's tough to do. I would also
suggest that, if you become friends first, it is easier to find out if the
romantic part is worth it. Haven't you ever had romantic intentions toward
someone, only to figure out that you couldn't stand her after a while?

:> 3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
:> you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.
:
:Could mean he does have problems. I've learned from every rejection
:I've gotten (sometimes it was my approach, other times I realized I
:had to make some change in dress, demeanor, etc.). Don't be too critical,
:there's someone out there for everyone, but don't be afraid to learn
:either (also, don't underestimate the importance of timing, women
:have to be "ready", most of the time they aren't").
:
But suppose there was nothing wrong, except that you were incompatible?
It's possible that it had nothing to do with your approach, dress,
demeanor, or any of that superficial crap. What do you do, interview them
afterward? And if you do, do you think they tell you the truth, or what
they think will get you to go away?

:> 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
:> understand women from women's point of view.
:
:I don't think women understand themselves so this could be dangerous. Do
:all of the above but with a critical eye. Then forget everything and
:give yourself to the moment. We're never going to figure them out.
:
Most of my best friends are women, and we've been friends for 20 years. I
have learned TONS from them. And I have learned that they are not that
complicated; they want the same things we want. They want us to listen,
and be their friend. How old are you, to be so cynical?

:> 5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
:> really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.
:
:Unless you like him, then you want him to be passionate, right? That's
:the problem with so much of your advice, it's mostly intended for the
:guys you aren't interested in and don't want to be bugged by (because
:the guy for you would never need advice, right? he'd already know how
:to push your buttons).
:
Being passionate has nothing to do with being obsessive, which is what
Pearl means. She needs her space sometimes, and NO ONE, male or female,
wants a mate who is totally dependent on him/her. That's what kids are
for, and women are not kids. And what you say about Pearl is unfair. You
will get a lot farther if you listen to women, and keep an open mind about
women, than you will by suspecting them of ulterior motives...

:> 6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
:> could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
:> serious
:> relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
:> treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
:> the maximum no. of try is 3.
:
:Boy, do I disagree on this one. Women want a comfort zone and time to
:think things over, there's no question about that. Important question
:is, when do you give it to them? My philosophy: a woman gets as much
:time as she wants before you start dating, maybe she's not sure, has
:an old boyfriend she hasn't gotten over, all the rest. But once you
:start taking her out you want her to be emotionally unsettled, from
:a purely tactical point of view you want to fuck her as soon as you
:can because once you get into that rythym she's yours for as long as
:you want her.

You really believe that, do you? You REALLY need this advice, because you
haven't a clue about what women want or need. Let's switch sides for a
minute; suppose a woman decides to take you home and screw you
immediately; what chance does she have of having you for as long as she
wants you? Not likely, is it? Now, if it doesn't work for you, why do you
think it works for women? Another thing; you go out with someone who is
emotionally unsettled, the relationship is doomed; I guarantee it...

:Most women know that, I think, which is why they want
:you to take it slowly. More likely you're just handing her off to
:the first guy who does the above (as for "no" I think one is enough,
:either she's attracted to you or she isn't, doesn't mean I follow this
:advice but I've never had a "comeback date" ("um, I guess I'll give
:him a chance) which led to anything).
:
I'm sorry, but you have no clue. First of all, women want you to take it
slowly when they are secure in themselves, and aren't desparate. That is a
GOOD thing. Any woman who wants you quickly, thinks what you do above,
that if she gets you quickly, she has you forever. This woman is usually
very insecure, whether permanent or not, and that is not a good basis for
a relationship. Believe me, slow is better, and friendship is essential to
any relationship anyway, so BUILD a good relationship.

:> 7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to
:> be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
:> girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!
:
:The best way to date great women is to date them.

I have been in relationships with some wonderful women, and I haven't been
oon a "date" since high school. The best relationship I ever had, we were
friends for 2 years before we ever even went out, and then it wasn't a
date; it was two friends having dinner and seeing a movie. Romance came
out of that, which is a more natural process than dating. Dating is a con
game, where both people try to sell each other, and a relationship has
nowhere to go but downhill from the expectations that creates...

:One way women size up
:men is by judging who he's with. This "beautiful women will take away
:you self-esteem" argument is wrong and obviously self-motivated. Bitches
:come in all shapes and sizes. Date who you want.
:
Women don't care who you're with, for the most part. And the few times
they do, once they have you, they'll soon dump you for another guy with an
even prettier woman...

:> 8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much
:> better than finding romance on the net.
:
:I agree with that. But then some people do find romance on the net.
:Be open to it where you can find it, that's the best advice.
:
I agree, but I would qualify the net relationship a little. It makes me
really uncomfortable, because you can't tell anything about a person
unless you can look them in the eye. The net is not reality. I know a guy
who posed as a gorgeous woman on AOL for awhile, and he had men all
aflutter, and sending him roses, and all kinds of crap. You never really
know what you have...

:> 9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"
:> I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.
:
:This is good advice. I'm not exactly sure what it means, but have a
:few interpretations: 1) don't feel sorry for yourself or you'll turn
:bitter and attract the mirror image of yourself, who needs that? 2)
:don't let self-pity become self-involvement, that's another possible
:interpretation of "mirror image", you become so involved in your own
:problems that you can't see outside of yourself, romance is all about
:appreciating another person who is not like you, it pulls us out of
:ourselves, that means you have to want to go.
:
Romance is a component of an overall relationship. And she can be like
you, or totally opposite; there's no telling. But if she's not your
friend, above all, you'll never make it...

:> 10. Remember: YOU ARE NOT LOSER!!! PUT YOUR THOUGHT IN ACTION RIGHTNOW
:> AND YOU WILL NOT LOSE NOTHING!
:
:There's someone out there for everybody, actually several dozen, or hundred,
:or thousand, it's not that hard to find someone to be with if you believe
:in yourself and are open to it. Simple standard: relationships work when
:they make life for each person better than what it would be if both were
:alone. That's not hard to do, loneliness is not that much fun, there are
:plenty of lonely people in the world. Rather than think in terms of, "am
:I good enough," concentrate on what you can give to another person so
:her life will be better than it is today. A lot of people don't do that
:but it's pretty simple. Finally, I don't buy into this "loser" stuff at
:all. Plenty of "losers" find the love they want, many "winners" spend
:their lives alone.
:
No, if they find the love they want, they're not losers. And if they go
their entire life without finding the love that was meant for them,
there's no way you can call them "winners". (although I may not call them
losers...)

--Milt

L. Davis

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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On 2 Jul 1997, Kevin S Douglas wrote:

> Pearl wrote:
> >
> > My advice for nice guys is as followings:
> >
> > 1. Be yourself
>
> Good so far.

agreed

> > 2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
> > her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.
>
> What a joke. Is this really how you want the men you like to treat
> you? I suggest the opposite, if you romantic intentions make those
> clear from the beginning, it's honest and you'll save a lot of time
> (whichever way it goes).

Do I want to be treateed like that... if he's sincere. And I think that
was probably the point. Don't go searching for the next date, make
friends, meet people, and at some point you will "click" with one of them.

> > 3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
> > you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.
>
> Could mean he does have problems.

Could, but not necessarily. None of these are absolutes. I myself have
ended a relationship, not because there was anything "wrong" with him, but
because I didn't feel that he was the one for me. The chemistry just
wasn't there. There wasn't a single thing he could've changed about
himself to make me want to stay, we just didn't fit. He wasn't wrong, he
was just wrong *for me*.

> > 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
> > understand women from women's point of view.
>
> I don't think women understand themselves so this could be dangerous.

Perhaps us ignorant women don't fully understand ourselves, but I can can
wholeheartedly say I know a hell of a lot more about what I want and need
than you do. If you want to know about women, a woman is the best person
to ask.

> Do all of the above but with a critical eye. Then forget everything and
> give yourself to the moment. We're never going to figure them out.

You know... you might come a little closer to figuring them out if you'd
listen. Here you have the words of a woman, telling you what you claim
you can't possibly know, and you totally discount it saying that's not
really what she wants. Hello? When did you become an expert?

> > 5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
> > really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.
>
> Unless you like him, then you want him to be passionate, right?

Passionate, but not desperate, needy, clingy, or obsessive.

> > 6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
> > could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
> > serious
> > relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
> > treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
> > the maximum no. of try is 3.
>
> Boy, do I disagree on this one. Women want a comfort zone and time to
> think things over, there's no question about that. Important question
> is, when do you give it to them? My philosophy: a woman gets as much
> time as she wants before you start dating, maybe she's not sure, has
> an old boyfriend she hasn't gotten over, all the rest. But once you
> start taking her out you want her to be emotionally unsettled, from
> a purely tactical point of view you want to fuck her as soon as you
> can because once you get into that rythym she's yours for as long as

> you want her. Most women know that, I think, which is why they want

> you to take it slowly. More likely you're just handing her off to
> the first guy who does the above

Well, now I think I understand the disagreement... there are two
completely different situations being discussed. The original poster, and
myself are talking about a real relationship that means something and
could last a lifetime. You just want your own selfish needs satisfied by
any means necessary now matter how much manipulation and/or pain is
involved until you are "finished" and can toss her aside for the next
victim... and you call yourself a nice guy.

> (as for "no" I think one is enough, either she's attracted to you or she
> isn't,

True. Men and women both need to learn that no means no. Men have the
option to say no, women don't get that. We've been trained to try to
preserve feelings, so we say "not now" but all the guy hears is "maybe
later" and he continues to pressure her and if she does say no, he wonders
of she's playing hard to get. The games need to stop. Women need to say
no when they mean no, and only then, and men need to respect that.
Perhaps if every guy a woman said no to said okay and walked away, she'd
learn not to try to play that game (again, this is not an absolute, there
are always exceptions, and I *was* refering to a specific set of people).

> > 7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to
> > be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
> > girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!
>

> The best way to date great women is to date them. One way women size up

> men is by judging who he's with.

Not all of us... at least not the one's worth having.

> This "beautiful women will take away
> you self-esteem" argument is wrong and obviously self-motivated. Bitches
> come in all shapes and sizes. Date who you want.

The original poster wasn't impying that beautful women will take away your
self-esteem, she was saying that dating a bitch, simply because she is
gorgeous will hurt your self-esteem. Point being that a woman is not
perfect just because the pacage she comes in is... and it works in
reverse. There are some truly beautiful women hiding beneath somewhat
less than beautiful body's.

Lisa Davis, Official Listener & President of the RFA
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~davisl

I look inside my heart,
I look inside my soul,
I promise you,
I will return....
--Enigma "River of Belief" MCMXC AD
955 (07/01)

Pearl

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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My advice for nice guys is as followings:

1. Be yourself

2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make

her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.

3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.

4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to

understand women from women's point of view.

5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's

really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.

6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it

could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
serious
relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
the maximum no. of try is 3.

7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to

be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!

8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much

better than finding romance on the net.

9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"

I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.

10. Remember: YOU ARE NOT LOSER!!! PUT YOUR THOUGHT IN ACTION RIGHTNOW

AND YOU WILL NOT LOSE NOTHING!

Good Luck, Guys!

Pearl

Galahad

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

to

Grazia e' mille, Pearl. Finally, a woman wrote what nice guys really
need to hear. I'm a 'nice guy' (contrary to the opinion of some people
on this newsgroup) and loved reading what you had said. As a matter of
fact, I forwarded it to my e-mail account just so I can read it again
sometime.

Uh....you single? Just kidding, Pearl.

Law? Hum, that sounds exciting. I am thinking of going into law
myself. Reply to newsgroup if you want to chat sometime.

Galahad

Kevin S Douglas

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

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Pearl wrote:
>
> My advice for nice guys is as followings:
>
> 1. Be yourself

Good so far.

>
> 2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
> her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.

What a joke. Is this really how you want the men you like to treat

you? I suggest the opposite, if you romantic intentions make those
clear from the beginning, it's honest and you'll save a lot of time
(whichever way it goes).

> 3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
> you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.

Could mean he does have problems. I've learned from every rejection

I've gotten (sometimes it was my approach, other times I realized I
had to make some change in dress, demeanor, etc.). Don't be too critical,
there's someone out there for everyone, but don't be afraid to learn
either (also, don't underestimate the importance of timing, women
have to be "ready", most of the time they aren't").

> 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to

> understand women from women's point of view.

I don't think women understand themselves so this could be dangerous. Do

all of the above but with a critical eye. Then forget everything and
give yourself to the moment. We're never going to figure them out.

> 5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
> really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.

Unless you like him, then you want him to be passionate, right? That's

the problem with so much of your advice, it's mostly intended for the
guys you aren't interested in and don't want to be bugged by (because
the guy for you would never need advice, right? he'd already know how
to push your buttons).

>

> 6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
> could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
> serious
> relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
> treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
> the maximum no. of try is 3.

Boy, do I disagree on this one. Women want a comfort zone and time to

think things over, there's no question about that. Important question
is, when do you give it to them? My philosophy: a woman gets as much
time as she wants before you start dating, maybe she's not sure, has
an old boyfriend she hasn't gotten over, all the rest. But once you
start taking her out you want her to be emotionally unsettled, from
a purely tactical point of view you want to fuck her as soon as you
can because once you get into that rythym she's yours for as long as
you want her. Most women know that, I think, which is why they want
you to take it slowly. More likely you're just handing her off to

the first guy who does the above (as for "no" I think one is enough,

either she's attracted to you or she isn't, doesn't mean I follow this
advice but I've never had a "comeback date" ("um, I guess I'll give
him a chance) which led to anything).

>

> 7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to
> be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
> girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!

The best way to date great women is to date them. One way women size up
men is by judging who he's with. This "beautiful women will take away

you self-esteem" argument is wrong and obviously self-motivated. Bitches
come in all shapes and sizes. Date who you want.

> 8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much
> better than finding romance on the net.

I agree with that. But then some people do find romance on the net.

Be open to it where you can find it, that's the best advice.

> 9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"
> I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.

This is good advice. I'm not exactly sure what it means, but have a

few interpretations: 1) don't feel sorry for yourself or you'll turn
bitter and attract the mirror image of yourself, who needs that? 2)
don't let self-pity become self-involvement, that's another possible
interpretation of "mirror image", you become so involved in your own
problems that you can't see outside of yourself, romance is all about
appreciating another person who is not like you, it pulls us out of
ourselves, that means you have to want to go.

> 10. Remember: YOU ARE NOT LOSER!!! PUT YOUR THOUGHT IN ACTION RIGHTNOW
> AND YOU WILL NOT LOSE NOTHING!

There's someone out there for everybody, actually several dozen, or hundred,

or thousand, it's not that hard to find someone to be with if you believe
in yourself and are open to it. Simple standard: relationships work when
they make life for each person better than what it would be if both were
alone. That's not hard to do, loneliness is not that much fun, there are
plenty of lonely people in the world. Rather than think in terms of, "am
I good enough," concentrate on what you can give to another person so
her life will be better than it is today. A lot of people don't do that
but it's pretty simple. Finally, I don't buy into this "loser" stuff at
all. Plenty of "losers" find the love they want, many "winners" spend
their lives alone.

>

> Good Luck, Guys!

We finally agree! Yay!

>
> Pearl

Kevin

Jeffrey Haber

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Kevin S Douglas wrote:

> But once you
> start taking her out you want her to be emotionally unsettled, from
> a purely tactical point of view you want to fuck her as soon as you
> can because once you get into that rythym she's yours for as long as
> you want her.

Exactamundo--this is where the man begins to gain some power in the
relationship, where he knows he probably won't be rejected for a
superficial reason after that point.

This is also the kind of advice you won't get from a woman, but very
valuable tactical advice indeed.

This is what Warren Farrell refers to as "Railroad sex"--getting from
meeting to intercourse ASAP--it decreases the time period of potential
rejection.

Jeffrey Haber
http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~haber

Jeffrey Haber

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Pearl wrote:
>
> My advice for nice guys is as followings:
>
> 1. Be yourself
>

> 2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
> her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.

I disagree. Treat her as a potential romantic partner. That means
taking aggressive sexual initiatives and keeping your emotional distance
until a relationship starts to form. You can't just develop a
friendship and then if sex just happens, it happens, LBJF could happen,
too. Women think that sometimes sex just happens--men know that they
make it happen (and are supposed to make it look like it just happened).

> 3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
> you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.

On the otherhand, the rejection may well have been the result of bad
dating tactics.

> 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
> understand women from women's point of view.

Bad advice--women, like people in general, say what is politically
correct, what they feel they are supposed to say to please people.
Heck, perhaps some of them really do want what they say. However, there
is a HUGE difference between what people say they are attracted to and
what they actually respond to. A mature woman will not have a dichotomy
like that, but they're also more likely to be found in the over 30 age
group.

Read some women's magazines--don't read the articles, but pay attention
to the ADVERTISEMENTS--the check stubs--this will tell you something
about the values of the women who read the magazines. (Could the ads be
saying that they looking for a prince to give them wealth and to take
care of them? Why don't you see too many ads for products required for
an independent career--computers, etc...or do you see more ads for
mascara?)

I recommend reading Sharyn Wolfe's Guerrilla Dating Tactics, Richard
Gosse's How to Find a Lasting Romantic Relationship, and to begin to
understand women and male/female dynamics, an invaluable book is men's
movement writer Warren Farrell's Why Men Are The Way They Are.

> 5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
> really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.

This is very good advice. Women can practically smell desperation, and
it smells like skunk, I always say. The reason why it is so
unattractive is because it makes the statement "I want to have a
girlfriend, anyone, not you in particular, but you'll do just fine."

> 6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
> could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
> serious
> relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
> treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
> the maximum no. of try is 3.

I think this may also be good advice--don't take "no's" too seriously.
Find out which "no's" mean "maybe" and which "no's" you can thus turn
into "yes's".

> 7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to
> be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
> girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!

This is also good advice, though not necessarily for the reasons Pearl
suggests. Chances are, if you're pursuing the most popular or beautiful
20% of women, the other 95% of the men are also pursuing them.

> 8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much
> better than finding romance on the net.

In other words--go out and try to make an "off the street pick-up".
That's very hard to do and has a low probability of success. Better
advice is "learn how to meet LOCAL women on the internet". It can be
done. I got 7 dates via the Internet by placing and responding to
personal ads. I slept with one of them. If you know what you're doing,
you can meet local women.

> 9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"
> I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.

I disagree--the dating scene is unfair to young males. I say, identify
the facts of reality regarding male/female dynamics, complain about how
men have the short end of the stick, at least in the earlier years, then
take the appropriate actions (learn how to be attractive to and how to
meet women) to achieve your goals.

I have one more piece of advice--don't listen to what women have to say
about seducing women. Women have NO EXPERIENCE with how to seduce
heterosexual women for obvious reasons. It is men who learn how to do
that. You wouldn't hire a plumber for a graphics design job, so why
would take advice from someone who's never done it before? I haven't
seen too many women who had good specific advice for guys about how to
get women into bed. Sure, they'll be able to give the obvious
pop-psychology advice (be yourself, etc.), but very little practical
advice regarding what women actually respond to.

Jeffrey Haber
http://www.sb.fsu.edu/~haber

Jay Schweitzer

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Wow! An intelligent thread! Thank you, Pearl, also. Think about it,
guys. How often does it happen that we are not looking when someone begins
to inquire about us. Just lay low, be real. I'm no expert but it seems to
work for me. I do a lot of reading, similar to what Pearl has advised.

Pearl <wmp...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.97070...@alcor.concordia.ca>...

>
>
> My advice for nice guys is as followings:
>
> 1. Be yourself
>
> 2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
> her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.
>

> 3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's
simply
> you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.
>

> 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
> understand women from women's point of view.
>

> 5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
> really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.
>

> 6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
> could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
> serious
> relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her
and
> treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
> the maximum no. of try is 3.
>

> 7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary
to
> be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
> girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!
>

> 8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much
> better than finding romance on the net.
>

> 9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"
> I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.
>

> 10. Remember: YOU ARE NOT LOSER!!! PUT YOUR THOUGHT IN ACTION RIGHTNOW

> AND YOU WILL NOT LOSE NOTHING!
>

> Good Luck, Guys!
>
> Pearl
>
>
>

Don Smith

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Pearl <wmp...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:

>
>
>My advice for nice guys is as followings:
>
>1. Be yourself

Wow. Insightful.

>
>2. Treat her as a protential friend at the beginning. Don't make
>her feel that you are looking for a date insteads of a mate.

Yep. COurt that old LJBF status.

>
>3. If you get rejected, don't assume that you have problems. It's simply
>you are not her type. That means you have chance to fit with someone.

OK, this part is valid.

>
>4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
>understand women from women's point of view.

And while you are at it, attend some feminists
consiousness-rasing workshops--preferably with the free
penis-removal clinic.

>
>5. Please, Please, Please don't show that you are dying for her. It's
>really scary! Don't forget your dignity and self-esteem.

This is another valid point.

>
>6. Sometimes a woman needs time to adjust her emotion feelings and it
>could be the reason she say, "NO" at first. More she wants to have
>serious
>relationship, more tends to be hesitant at first. So, please call her and
>treat her as a friend, after she say, "NO" for the first time. I guess
>the maximum no. of try is 3.

Yep. So much for dignity and self-esteem.

>
>7. Try to date someone who has potential to fit you and not nescessary to
>be the popular ones. I know some of them are real bitch! Such kind of
>girls would only take away your self-esteem. Forget them!

In other words, don't go after women you might actually
find desirable. Settle for what is handy.

>
>8. Go out and have a walk. "She" could be right there. It's much
>better than finding romance on the net.

This point is also valid. There is no such thing as romance
on the net. (Unless you like masturbating on the keyboard.)

>
>9. Stop complaining, "Why girls don't want such a nice guy as you are?"
>I am afraid you will fall in love with your mirror image.

Right. You have to be a selfless SNAG as well as a LJBF.

>
>10. Remember: YOU ARE NOT LOSER!!! PUT YOUR THOUGHT IN ACTION RIGHTNOW
>AND YOU WILL NOT LOSE NOTHING!

Valid point #4.

>
> Good Luck, Guys!
>
>Pearl
>
>

=============================================
Australia was a penal colony.

America was founded by God-fearing Puritans.

In modern Australia, women frolic topless at the beach,
and the age of consent is 16.

In modern America, Christians set off bombs to kill people
as directed by God, and 16 will get you 20.

Who do YOU think got the better deal???
=============================================

Don Smith

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Jeffrey Haber <ha...@sb.fsu.edu> wrote:

>
>
>> 4. Read some women's magazines, talk to your female friends and try to
>> understand women from women's point of view.
>

>Bad advice--women, like people in general, say what is politically
>correct, what they feel they are supposed to say to please people.
>Heck, perhaps some of them really do want what they say. However, there
>is a HUGE difference between what people say they are attracted to and
>what they actually respond to. A mature woman will not have a dichotomy
>like that, but they're also more likely to be found in the over 30 age
>group.
>
>Read some women's magazines--don't read the articles, but pay attention
>to the ADVERTISEMENTS--the check stubs--this will tell you something
>about the values of the women who read the magazines. (Could the ads be
>saying that they looking for a prince to give them wealth and to take
>care of them? Why don't you see too many ads for products required for
>an independent career--computers, etc...or do you see more ads for
>mascara?)
>
>I recommend reading Sharyn Wolfe's Guerrilla Dating Tactics,

EXCELLENT book!

Kevin S Douglas

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Milt wrote:
>
> On 2 Jul 1997, Kevin S Douglas wrote:
>
> That's silly. Why do you separate friendship and romance. For a serious
> LTR, friendship is more important than romance. YOu can build on
> friendship. How do you build on romance? That's tough to do. I would also
> suggest that, if you become friends first, it is easier to find out if the
> romantic part is worth it. Haven't you ever had romantic intentions toward
> someone, only to figure out that you couldn't stand her after a while?

Fair question. Sure, it happens quite often. Fundamentally, though,
I think romance and friendship are just different. Sure, you have to be friends in
order to order to have a good long term relationship. I think the two start in
different places, though. I've never developed romantic feelings for someone when I
didn't know it right away. Put the other way, I don't want to fuck my friends. That
could just be me, though.

> But suppose there was nothing wrong, except that you were incompatible?
> It's possible that it had nothing to do with your approach, dress,
> demeanor, or any of that superficial crap. What do you do, interview them
> afterward? And if you do, do you think they tell you the truth, or what
> they think will get you to go away?

Women never tell the truth when it comes to rejecting a guy (no, on second thought, I've
pressed a few times and then concluded I'd rather hear the lie). But it's not that hard
to figure out. As for incompatability that's included, learn from that as well. Wasn't
suggesting that the guy think he's the problem, just that he can learn
from every rejection (eg. I've learned I have to date women who appreciate intellect or
are at least as smart as myself...you didn't
think I'd go for the one of the embarassing ones, right?). :)

> I
> have learned TONS from them. And I have learned that they are not that
> complicated; they want the same things we want. They want us to listen,
> and be their friend. How old are you, to be so cynical?

> I'm 32, grew up in a family with three sisters, have tons of women friends, have dated
my share, and hmm, never thought about it, I hope
I'm not becoming cynical. I never said you couldn't learn from women, just don't take
what they say at face value. Sorry, I stand by that.
I think the original poster's dating advice was self-serving, not very helpful, the sort
of thing women pawn off on guys they know they'll
never date (the lah de dah this is what you have to do to get my attention pose many
women effect and then go off with someone very different). I do like women, really,
just think I see through some of this (and I'm not claiming guys are much better). This
could be a much longer conversation.

> Being passionate has nothing to do with being obsessive, which is what
> Pearl means. She needs her space sometimes, and NO ONE, male or female,
> wants a mate who is totally dependent on him/her. That's what kids are

> for, and women are not kids. And what you say about Pearl is unfair. Perhaps you're right, I was trying to be funny more than critical, but come on, get some
critical distance yourself, do you think she gave good advice? She was referring to the
first approach, not the middle of a relationship (I agree with your comments about
obsessiveness, by the way). Here's my sense...when two people are attracted to each
other it doesn't really matter much what the guy does so long as he does something.
This "bargaining model" (you do this and I'll do that) just doesn't ring true to me at
all.

> You really believe that, do you? You REALLY need this advice, because you
> haven't a clue about what women want or need. Let's switch sides for a
> minute; suppose a woman decides to take you home and screw you
> immediately; what chance does she have of having you for as long as she
> wants you? Not likely, is it? Now, if it doesn't work for you, why do you
> think it works for women?

Bingo. Because she's a woman and women are not like guys. I'm not discussing
the ethics of this, and you're wrong in assuming that my intentions aren't
honorable (I'm not advocating sleep with her and then leave, that's not my
style at all). But I stand by what I said. Get into the rhythym of sleeping
with her and she's yours because women don't leave the men they sleep with
(for a while, anyway, then it depends upon how the relationship works out).
I think I'm right on the money with this one. Is that all a woman wants?
No, of course not. But forget this namby pamby advice about waiting (which
is what Pearl was suggesting). It might be smart to wait if she has strong
ethics, but (and you're not going to like this) it's also possible that she's
playing hard to get and the first guy who gets her has got her (that's how
I figured this out, by the way, I was the guy passed over a couple of times,
then I realized why wait, since then I haven't had any problems). One more
thing, this is dating advice, relationship advice is a different subject.
I suspect we'd actually agree a lot about that.

Another thing; you go out with someone who is
> emotionally unsettled, the relationship is doomed; I guarantee it...

Not what I said, perhaps I'm not articulating myself well. In my own biased
opinion women like relationships which unsettle their emotions in the
beginning, they don't want to be comfortable, the phrase "he swept me off
my feet" conveys this rather well. Go dancing on a cliff over the ocean,
take a hot air balloon ride, whisk her away to Paris if you can, you'll
stand a much better chance of getting something started than if you settle
for dinner and a movie. You're referring to emotionally unstable, different
subject entirely.

> I'm sorry, but you have no clue. First of all, women want you to take it
> slowly when they are secure in themselves, and aren't desparate. That is a
> GOOD thing. Any woman who wants you quickly, thinks what you do above,
> that if she gets you quickly, she has you forever. This woman is usually
> very insecure, whether permanent or not, and that is not a good basis for
> a relationship. Believe me, slow is better, and friendship is essential to
> any relationship anyway, so BUILD a good relationship.

I agree with this once you've gotten through the first few weeks and you're
settling into the "relationship" phase. Slow is better. Can't imagine why
couples get married when they haven't known each other for at least two
years. But dating, I don't agree with you. Maybe we just have different
styles (I look at that beginning period as the fresh time we'll never get
again, why not make it exciting?).

> I have been in relationships with some wonderful women, and I haven't been
> oon a "date" since high school.

We're living in different worlds then, that is clear. If I didn't go out
on dates I would never have relationships with women. Live in a large urban
area, don't have any roommates, same set of friends (so few possibilities
there), don't work in an institutional environment (eg. college, large
company, where you spend time with the same people). That could explain
a lot. Not saying your way of approaching things is wrong, it's just not
my way and I can't imagine your way working given what my life is like.
So there, we don't have to argue, different strokes and all that.

>The best relationship I ever had, we were
> friends for 2 years before we ever even went out, and then it wasn't a
> date; it was two friends having dinner and seeing a movie. Romance came
> out of that, which is a more natural process than dating. Dating is a con
> game, where both people try to sell each other, and a relationship has
> nowhere to go but downhill from the expectations that creates...

I could say the opposite, I've had a few great relationships which
started out as dates, I haven't experienced the "friends turning into
lovers" scenario since college. Whatever works.

> :One way women size up
> :men is by judging who he's with. This "beautiful women will take away
> :you self-esteem" argument is wrong and obviously self-motivated. Bitches
> :come in all shapes and sizes. Date who you want.
> :
> Women don't care who you're with, for the most part. And the few times
> they do, once they have you, they'll soon dump you for another guy with an
> even prettier woman...

Hmm...I do live in LA. Let me explain what I meant. Most single women (and
you're not going to like this generalization) size up guys all the time for
their "romantic potential" (I don't see anything wrong with that, think it
makes a lot of sense, more so than the, "Hey, did you get a look at her" many
guys do). If I made it sound mechanical (I'm prettier than her, I'll go after
him) that's not what I meant at all. More like, "Wow, Bob is dating Melissa,
she seems happy, Bob must be treating her well" (and that plants a seed
which can sprout if Bob and Melissa ever break up). If Bob is dating
someone "lower on the food chain" (ahem) or, worse, dates no one at all,
she might not even see him as a romantic possibility. Rather than suggesting
that women are stupid, the above suggests they're much more sophisticated
than guys (who generally don't do this comparative shopping). That's how
I see it, anyway, didn't mean to imply that it was shallow or manipulative
(and certainly not as shallow as Pearl's advice, did you read it? Or is
all of your criticism aimed at me?) :)

> I agree, but I would qualify the net relationship a little. It makes me
> really uncomfortable, because you can't tell anything about a person
> unless you can look them in the eye. The net is not reality. I know a guy
> who posed as a gorgeous woman on AOL for awhile, and he had men all
> aflutter, and sending him roses, and all kinds of crap. You never really
> know what you have...

I agree with the gist of this but you're taking it too far. Sure the net
is reality, it's about a bunch of people typing on computers, sharing
thoughts, feelings, just as we are now. That's real. So it's not like
you can't tell anything about a person, sometimes you can find out a
lot. I think what you're trying to say is you can't learn everything
or even most of what you need to know, it's easy to let fantasies get
in the way of reality, some people use the internet to hide who they
really are (not good), and the make or break of any relationship is
what happens when both are together. If so we're in solid agreement
(I don't date off on-line services anymore, tried it a few times,
didn't work out, suspect there's a great book waiting to be written
on this subject about those romances which did and (more often, I
suspect) didn't gel. Prefer real life hands down.

> Romance is a component of an overall relationship. And she can be like
> you, or totally opposite; there's no telling. But if she's not your
> friend, above all, you'll never make it...

You don't expect me to argue with that, I hope. :)

> No, if they find the love they want, they're not losers. And if they go
> their entire life without finding the love that was meant for them,
> there's no way you can call them "winners". (although I may not call them
> losers...)

I would. Does that make more cynical than you, more judgemental, or more
honest? Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed every word. And your last paragraph
sums up the whole thing, there's the gamesmanship of dating and then there's
joy which can be found in relationships, the two aren't strongly related but
for some people (including myself) it seems you have to go through the first
to get to the second. If you've found some way of skipping that step
congratulations.

Kevin S Douglas

unread,

Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

to

Milt wrote:
>
> On 2 Jul 1997, Kevin S Douglas wrote:
>
> That's silly. Why do you separate friendship and romance. For a serious
> LTR, friendship is more important than romance. YOu can build on
> friendship. How do you build on romance? That's tough to do. I would also
> suggest that, if you become friends first, it is easier to find out if the
> romantic part is worth it. Haven't you ever had romantic intentions toward
> someone, only to figure out that you couldn't stand her after a while?

Fair question. Sure, it happens quite often. Fundamentally, though,

I think romance and friendship are just different. Sure, you have to be friends in
order to order to have a good long term relationship. I think the two start in
different places, though. I've never developed romantic feelings for someone when I
didn't know it right away. Put the other way, I don't want to fuck my friends. That
could just be me, though.

> But suppose there was nothing wrong, except that you were incompatible?

> It's possible that it had nothing to do with your approach, dress,
> demeanor, or any of that superficial crap. What do you do, interview them
> afterward? And if you do, do you think they tell you the truth, or what
> they think will get you to go away?

Women never tell the truth when it comes to rejecting a guy (no, on second thought, I've

pressed a few times and then concluded I'd rather hear the lie). But it's not that hard
to figure out. As for incompatability that's included, learn from that as well. Wasn't
suggesting that the guy think he's the problem, just that he can learn
from every rejection (eg. I've learned I have to date women who appreciate intellect or
are at least as smart as myself...you didn't
think I'd go for the one of the embarassing ones, right?). :)

> I

> have learned TONS from them. And I have learned that they are not that
> complicated; they want the same things we want. They want us to listen,
> and be their friend. How old are you, to be so cynical?

> I'm 32, grew up in a family with three sisters, have tons of women friends, have dated
my share, and hmm, never thought about it, I hope
I'm not becoming cynical. I never said you couldn't learn from women, just don't take
what they say at face value. Sorry, I stand by that.
I think the original poster's dating advice was self-serving, not very helpful, the sort
of thing women pawn off on guys they know they'll
never date (the lah de dah this is what you have to do to get my attention pose many
women effect and then go off with someone very different). I do like women, really,
just think I see through some of this (and I'm not claiming guys are much better). This
could be a much longer conversation.

> Being passionate has nothing to do with being obsessive, which is what

> Pearl means. She needs her space sometimes, and NO ONE, male or female,
> wants a mate who is totally dependent on him/her. That's what kids are

> for, and women are not kids. And what you say about Pearl is unfair. Perhaps you're right, I was trying to be funny more than critical, but come on, get some
critical distance yourself, do you think she gave good advice? She was referring to the
first approach, not the middle of a relationship (I agree with your comments about
obsessiveness, by the way). Here's my sense...when two people are attracted to each
other it doesn't really matter much what the guy does so long as he does something.
This "bargaining model" (you do this and I'll do that) just doesn't ring true to me at
all.

> You really believe that, do you? You REALLY need this advice, because you

> haven't a clue about what women want or need. Let's switch sides for a
> minute; suppose a woman decides to take you home and screw you
> immediately; what chance does she have of having you for as long as she
> wants you? Not likely, is it? Now, if it doesn't work for you, why do you
> think it works for women?

Bingo. Because she's a woman and women are not like guys. I'm not discussing

the ethics of this, and you're wrong in assuming that my intentions aren't
honorable (I'm not advocating sleep with her and then leave, that's not my
style at all). But I stand by what I said. Get into the rhythym of sleeping
with her and she's yours because women don't leave the men they sleep with
(for a while, anyway, then it depends upon how the relationship works out).
I think I'm right on the money with this one. Is that all a woman wants?
No, of course not. But forget this namby pamby advice about waiting (which
is what Pearl was suggesting). It might be smart to wait if she has strong
ethics, but (and you're not going to like this) it's also possible that she's
playing hard to get and the first guy who gets her has got her (that's how
I figured this out, by the way, I was the guy passed over a couple of times,
then I realized why wait, since then I haven't had any problems). One more
thing, this is dating advice, relationship advice is a different subject.
I suspect we'd actually agree a lot about that.

Another thing; you go out with someone who is

> emotionally unsettled, the relationship is doomed; I guarantee it...

Not what I said, perhaps I'm not articulating myself well. In my own biased

opinion women like relationships which unsettle their emotions in the
beginning, they don't want to be comfortable, the phrase "he swept me off
my feet" conveys this rather well. Go dancing on a cliff over the ocean,
take a hot air balloon ride, whisk her away to Paris if you can, you'll
stand a much better chance of getting something started than if you settle
for dinner and a movie. You're referring to emotionally unstable, different
subject entirely.

> I'm sorry, but you have no clue. First of all, women want you to take it

> slowly when they are secure in themselves, and aren't desparate. That is a
> GOOD thing. Any woman who wants you quickly, thinks what you do above,
> that if she gets you quickly, she has you forever. This woman is usually
> very insecure, whether permanent or not, and that is not a good basis for
> a relationship. Believe me, slow is better, and friendship is essential to
> any relationship anyway, so BUILD a good relationship.

I agree with this once you've gotten through the first few weeks and you're

settling into the "relationship" phase. Slow is better. Can't imagine why
couples get married when they haven't known each other for at least two
years. But dating, I don't agree with you. Maybe we just have different
styles (I look at that beginning period as the fresh time we'll never get
again, why not make it exciting?).

> I have been in relationships with some wonderful women, and I haven't been

> oon a "date" since high school.

We're living in different worlds then, that is clear. If I didn't go out

on dates I would never have relationships with women. Live in a large urban
area, don't have any roommates, same set of friends (so few possibilities
there), don't work in an institutional environment (eg. college, large
company, where you spend time with the same people). That could explain
a lot. Not saying your way of approaching things is wrong, it's just not
my way and I can't imagine your way working given what my life is like.
So there, we don't have to argue, different strokes and all that.

>The best relationship I ever had, we were

> friends for 2 years before we ever even went out, and then it wasn't a
> date; it was two friends having dinner and seeing a movie. Romance came
> out of that, which is a more natural process than dating. Dating is a con
> game, where both people try to sell each other, and a relationship has
> nowhere to go but downhill from the expectations that creates...

I could say the opposite, I've had a few great relationships which

started out as dates, I haven't experienced the "friends turning into
lovers" scenario since college. Whatever works.

> :One way women size up

> :men is by judging who he's with. This "beautiful women will take away
> :you self-esteem" argument is wrong and obviously self-motivated. Bitches
> :come in all shapes and sizes. Date who you want.
> :
> Women don't care who you're with, for the most part. And the few times
> they do, once they have you, they'll soon dump you for another guy with an
> even prettier woman...

Hmm...I do live in LA. Let me explain what I meant. Most single women (and

you're not going to like this generalization) size up guys all the time for
their "romantic potential" (I don't see anything wrong with that, think it
makes a lot of sense, more so than the, "Hey, did you get a look at her" many
guys do). If I made it sound mechanical (I'm prettier than her, I'll go after
him) that's not what I meant at all. More like, "Wow, Bob is dating Melissa,
she seems happy, Bob must be treating her well" (and that plants a seed
which can sprout if Bob and Melissa ever break up). If Bob is dating
someone "lower on the food chain" (ahem) or, worse, dates no one at all,
she might not even see him as a romantic possibility. Rather than suggesting
that women are stupid, the above suggests they're much more sophisticated
than guys (who generally don't do this comparative shopping). That's how
I see it, anyway, didn't mean to imply that it was shallow or manipulative
(and certainly not as shallow as Pearl's advice, did you read it? Or is
all of your criticism aimed at me?) :)

> I agree, but I would qualify the net relationship a little. It makes me

> really uncomfortable, because you can't tell anything about a person
> unless you can look them in the eye. The net is not reality. I know a guy
> who posed as a gorgeous woman on AOL for awhile, and he had men all
> aflutter, and sending him roses, and all kinds of crap. You never really
> know what you have...

I agree with the gist of this but you're taking it too far. Sure the net

is reality, it's about a bunch of people typing on computers, sharing
thoughts, feelings, just as we are now. That's real. So it's not like
you can't tell anything about a person, sometimes you can find out a
lot. I think what you're trying to say is you can't learn everything
or even most of what you need to know, it's easy to let fantasies get
in the way of reality, some people use the internet to hide who they
really are (not good), and the make or break of any relationship is
what happens when both are together. If so we're in solid agreement
(I don't date off on-line services anymore, tried it a few times,
didn't work out, suspect there's a great book waiting to be written
on this subject about those romances which did and (more often, I
suspect) didn't gel. Prefer real life hands down.

> Romance is a component of an overall relationship. And she can be like
> you, or totally opposite; there's no telling. But if she's not your
> friend, above all, you'll never make it...

You don't expect me to argue with that, I hope. :)

> No, if they find the love they want, they're not losers. And if they go

> their entire life without finding the love that was meant for them,
> there's no way you can call them "winners". (although I may not call them
> losers...)

I would. Does that make more cynical than you, more judgemental, or more