Skunkworks-First thoughts
Shiflet
special. Some songs I liked a bit, others were just mediocre, most were
just kind of so so. Not bad, but not good either. I *can* see why some
would call it a grunge album, and that sound is one of the reasons I
don't care for it much. Kind of dissapoinging really, after hearing so
much about it here. Better than NPFTD-VXI, but still a far cry from
AoB/TCW and early Maiden... Oh well, I gave it a shot. Maybe it will
grow on me or something.
Danny Shiflet
"I walk the earth, another day
The wicked one, that comes this way
Saviour to my own, devil to some
Mankind falls, something wicked comes"-Matthew Barlow, The Coming Curse
Igor Bratic
>
> Finally got around to hearing Skunkworks today. It was okay, nothing
> special. Some songs I liked a bit, others were just mediocre, most were
> just kind of so so. Not bad, but not good either. I *can* see why some
> would call it a grunge album, and that sound is one of the reasons I
> don't care for it much. Kind of dissapoinging really, after hearing so
> much about it here. Better than NPFTD-VXI, but still a far cry from
> AoB/TCW and early Maiden... Oh well, I gave it a shot. Maybe it will
> grow on me or something.
It'll probably take a while to get used to it. I felt the same way
about it after I heard it for the first time.
--
Igor
Visit my Iron Maiden Rare Sounds Archive for B-Sides at:
http://members.tripod.com/~in_his_hands/index.html
Tears for rememberance
And tears for joy
Tears for somebody
And this lonely boy
Shiflet
> It'll probably take a while to get used to it. I felt the same way
> about it after I heard it for the first time.
We'll see. That'll be tough to do though, considering I've got a bunch
of better stuff lately that I'll reach for instead when I grab a CD. I
mean, if I can grab for The Dark Saga, SWTWC, Edge of Thorns, Force of
Habit, etc, or I can grab for Skunkworks, well, more often than not,
Skunkworks is the one that's gonna stay on the shelf. And then also, I
know my tastes. If I don't like something on first listen, 90% of the
time I won't like it. I mean, I've played SSOASS repeatedly, and all the
time my original judgement hasn't changed:It's not a particulary
exciting album. I've tried and tried to like it. I've listened to it
going to sleep, I've listened to it while doing other things, it just
doesn't work. With albums that have grown on me, I at least liked them
fairly well to being with(like K.Diamond's Them), and with those that I
don't care for that much on first listen(K.Diamond's Spider's Lullabye),
my views generally remain the same. Albums that I may not think are
great grow on me alot, but I have to have a reason to want to hear them
again in the first place. With Skunkworks, I don't have much of a
reason. On a positive note, it's still way better than Korn et al
though...
> --
> Igor
>
> Visit my Iron Maiden Rare Sounds Archive for B-Sides at:
> http://members.tripod.com/~in_his_hands/index.html
>
> Tears for rememberance
> And tears for joy
> Tears for somebody
> And this lonely boy
Danny Shiflet
Robert H
as it's own entity. :-)
On Sun, 07 Mar 1999 00:33:50 -0800, Shiflet <rshi...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Finally got around to hearing Skunkworks today. It was okay, nothing
>special. Some songs I liked a bit, others were just mediocre, most were
>just kind of so so. Not bad, but not good either. I *can* see why some
>would call it a grunge album, and that sound is one of the reasons I
>don't care for it much. Kind of dissapoinging really, after hearing so
>much about it here. Better than NPFTD-VXI, but still a far cry from
>AoB/TCW and early Maiden... Oh well, I gave it a shot. Maybe it will
>grow on me or something.
>
>Danny Shiflet
>"I walk the earth, another day
>The wicked one, that comes this way
>Saviour to my own, devil to some
>Mankind falls, something wicked comes"-Matthew Barlow, The Coming Curse
Robert H
Remove the 'spamless' from my email address to reply
Tom Fletcher
have heard more bad things than good things about it.
Shiflet wrote in message <36E239...@ix.netcom.com>...
Regnus
>On a positive note, it's still way better than Korn et al
>though...
Uh, that ain't saying much really is it? Korn is terrible. Wanna be metal
if you ask me.
Give me Maiden or give me death!
Regnus
Shiflet
> Uh, that ain't saying much really is it?
Well no...
> Korn is terrible.
To put it mildly.
> Wanna be metal if you ask me.
Yep.
> Give me Maiden or give me death!
>
> Regnus
Danny Shiflet
Stargazer
> Finally got around to hearing Skunkworks today. It was okay, nothing
> special. Some songs I liked a bit, others were just mediocre, most were
> just kind of so so. Not bad, but not good either. I *can* see why some
> would call it a grunge album, and that sound is one of the reasons I
> don't care for it much. Kind of dissapoinging really, after hearing so
> much about it here. Better than NPFTD-VXI, but still a far cry from
> AoB/TCW and early Maiden... Oh well, I gave it a shot. Maybe it will
> grow on me or something.
I felt exactly the same way when I first bought it. It didn't grow on me
after a few listens, so I put it away and pulled it out a few weeks later,
which often does the trick, but Skunkworks just kept smelling worse and
worse. I just traded it in at the local used CD store 'cuz I was sick of
even looking at it. It went a veeeery small way toward the purchase of a
used "Once In A Livetime" double CD live set by Dream Theater. Not to get
too far off track, but the John Petrucci guitar solo is alone worth the
price of admission. That guy RIPS!!!
Baeleron
> I felt exactly the same way when I first bought it. It didn't grow on me
> after a few listens, so I put it away and pulled it out a few weeks later,
> which often does the trick, but Skunkworks just kept smelling worse and
> worse. I just traded it in at the local used CD store 'cuz I was sick of
> even looking at it.
I would have traded mine too, except I wanted to have the
complete Bruce set. I've given several honest tries at
liking Skunkworks, but I failed. Maybe it's just a matter of
personal taste, who knows. But I'm certainly glad Bruce
didn't continue on that path!
Baeleron
http://www.blueneptune.com/~bvs/ironmaiden/
Nicko639
entity.". And I agree with that 100%... Either you like it and appreciate
the fact that Bruce dared to explore this area of himself, or you don't like
it.. Somethink it's ok, but I don't think they've taken the time to
appreciate what Skunkworks is all about.... And that's cool.... No problem
with it... Me personally, I LOVE Skunkworks and when I play it for people, no
one believes it's Bruce.....
Live long and prosper..
Nick
willy
Shiflet wrote:
> And then also, I
> know my tastes. If I don't like something on first listen, 90% of the
> time I won't like it.
I'm sad upon hearing this. My favorite albums are most often the ones that
bored me when I first heard them. Not really with metal, but the
singer-songwriter stuff I listen to takes time. Very early James Taylor
bored me to tears at first. So did Paul Simon's Rhythm of the Saints
album. Oh well. Usually having spent the cash on a cd is motivation
enough to keep listening.
I wish Seventh Son had grown on you. I came from a group of old-school
Maiden fans who thought that everything post-Live After Death was
terrible. I was young and impressionable, so I believed them. I finally
bought Seventh Son when the Castle reissues came out, and at first it
reinforced my opinion. But I gave it time and boy has it grown on me.
Really, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son are two of my favorites--I think
the chemistry between H and Dave really hit a high peak.
Have you tried Seventh Son really loud and with the lights off? I bet
doing that would work. Maybe a solitary candle, too.
Shiflet
> I'm sad upon hearing this. My favorite albums are most often the ones that
> bored me when I first heard them. Not really with metal, but the
> singer-songwriter stuff I listen to takes time. Very early James Taylor
> bored me to tears at first. So did Paul Simon's Rhythm of the Saints
> album. Oh well. Usually having spent the cash on a cd is motivation
> enough to keep listening.
I didn't spend the cash on SSOASS or SiT. SSOASS was a cassette copy
someone made to convince me what a great album it was, SiT was an X-mas
gift.
> I wish Seventh Son had grown on you. I came from a group of old-school
> Maiden fans who thought that everything post-Live After Death was
> terrible.
I still think that(well, not terrible, but not good either)
> I was young and impressionable, so I believed them. I finally
> bought Seventh Son when the Castle reissues came out, and at first it
> reinforced my opinion. But I gave it time and boy has it grown on me.
> Really, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son are two of my favorites--I think
> the chemistry between H and Dave really hit a high peak.
> Have you tried Seventh Son really loud and with the lights off? I bet doing that would work. Maybe a solitary candle, too.
I tried going to sleep to it twice(I always go to sleep with something
playing), still didn't like it. The music is just plain boring, not
something I care to hear. They lost the power and aggression they had on
the earlier albums, and with that loss, lost my interest as well.
Hopefully the new one will recapture that feel.
Aaron Burrough
wrote:
> I tried going to sleep to it twice(I always go to sleep with something
> playing), still didn't like it. The music is just plain boring, not
> something I care to hear. They lost the power and aggression they had on
> the earlier albums, and with that loss, lost my interest as well.
> Hopefully the new one will recapture that feel.
They didn't lose jack my friend. The power and aggression is still there,
just in a more controlled form with added elements i.e. keyboards. Just
like any Maiden album it's a mixture of slow sections, fast sections, and
a couple tunes that don't let up for a second. Moonchild is more exciting
than Children of the Damned. Aces High is more exciting than Infinite
Dreams. Only the Good Die Young is more exciting than Revelations. It
doesn't mean any one of these songs is remotely bad. They all have their
merits. I suggest you listen to Moonchild before you ever think of calling
SSoaSS boring again.
Expand your horizons Danny.
> Danny Shiflet
> "I walk the earth, another day
> The wicked one, that comes this way
> Saviour to my own, devil to some
> Mankind falls, something wicked comes"-Matthew Barlow, The Coming Curse
--
Aaron
"Iron Maiden's gonna get ya no matter how far!" - Steve Harris
Shiflet
> They didn't lose jack my friend. The power and aggression is still there,
> just in a more controlled form with added elements i.e. keyboards.
Well they do a damn fine job of hiding it. I don't consider that
controlled aggression, I consider it boring. NotB, Powerslave. *Those*
are albums I like. *They* have controlled aggression.
> Just like any Maiden album it's a mixture of slow sections, fast sections,
Too many slow sections, and the fast sections aren't all that fast.
> and a couple tunes that don't let up for a second. Moonchild is more exciting
> than Children of the Damned.
You've got me there.
> Aces High is more exciting than Infinite
> Dreams.
Yep.
> Only the Good Die Young is more exciting than Revelations.
Not in my book.
> It doesn't mean any one of these songs is remotely bad. They all have their
> merits. I suggest you listen to Moonchild before you ever think of calling
> SSoaSS boring again.
Moonchild is okay, and that was the only track I cared for off SS. And
*it* was still rather boring.
> Expand your horizons Danny.
I do. But I can't get past the boring element.
willy
going to sleep to Seventh Son. It's definitely not suited to THAT. I like
driving to it--most Maiden is great for driving. It took a long time for me to
get to the point where I sang along with the lyrics on 7th son, but once I was
there I screamed them.
I don't reccommend any tricks like listening upside down or only on tuesday or
anything--I just suggest plenty of volume and lots more listens. I guess once you
get to where you are with an album it makes it hard to conceive of the possibility
that you will ever like it. But if you don't fight it, and give it its time my
friend, I'm confident that it's a great album and I feel sure a few months down
the road you'll concur.
Shiflet
>
> I don't know how you can be bored by it.
Because the music is boring. Not particulary fast, not particulary
heavy, just particulary dull. It lacks the power and the pacing that
made the first several albums great.
> I DO know that I don't reccommend
> going to sleep to Seventh Son. It's definitely not suited to THAT.
I go to sleep listening to Ozzy, Sabbath, Helloween, King Diamond, Iced
Earth, Exodus, Overkill, Sentenced, early Maiden, etc. None of *them*
bother me... I can go to sleep listening to music I like, it doesn't
distract me(no matter how heavy or noisy the music might be), I'm more
apt to listen to something I don't like without being as bothered while
going to sleep. I mean, Helloween's Master of the Rings is another
boring album. I don't play it anymore, don't like it. But I went to
sleep with it playing once and it didn't bother me enough to turn it
off. That's how SS is as well. A dull album, not suited for listening
when I want to hear something I enjoy, only suited to being played when
I can tolerate it.
> I like driving to it--most Maiden is great for driving.
Correction:Most pre-LAD Maiden is great for driving. I like fast
exciting stuff to play when I'm in the car, and SSOASS doesn't meet
those conditions. Neither does SiT, VXI, TXF, or NPFTD(haven't heard
FotD recently enough to remember)
> It took a long time for me to
> get to the point where I sang along with the lyrics on 7th son, but once I was there I screamed them.
I have no desire to sing along with SS. The lyrics are fine, but when
the music's dull it defeats the purpose of listening to it in the first
place.
> I don't reccommend any tricks like listening upside down or only on tuesday or
> anything--I just suggest plenty of volume and lots more listens. I guess once you
> get to where you are with an album it makes it hard to conceive of the possibility
> that you will ever like it. But if you don't fight it, and give it its time my
> friend, I'm confident that it's a great album and I feel sure a few months down
> the road you'll concur.
I don't. I've had the tape for a few months now. I've played it several
times. I wasn't trying to dislike it. I tried to enjoy listening to it
actually. Didn't work. The album bores me. The music is dull, and that
is not what I care to hear. Why should I play an album that *might* grow
on me repeatedly, when I can play an album that's good enough that I
*already* like it? An album shouldn't take 15 or so listens to draw the
listener in, that's not a particulary effective way of doing things.
Shiflet
>
> Whoa. Exodus and Overkill?! Is this the same Danny "I hate thrash" Shiflet?
Neither Force of Habit or Horrorscope are particulary thrashy(and
besides, there *are* certain songs on those that are too thrashy for
me...)
> --
> Aaron
>
> "Iron Maiden's gonna get ya no matter how far!" - Steve Harris
Danny Shiflet
Shiflet
> Heh, Force of Habit. That's gotta be the worst album Exodus ever produced.
If they're usually thrashier, I'll have to disagree;-)
Aaron Burrough
wrote:
> I go to sleep listening to Ozzy, Sabbath, Helloween, King Diamond, Iced
> Earth, Exodus, Overkill, Sentenced, early Maiden, etc. None of *them*
> bother me...
Whoa. Exodus and Overkill?! Is this the same Danny "I hate thrash" Shiflet?
> Danny Shiflet
Aaron Burrough
wrote:
> Neither Force of Habit or Horrorscope are particulary thrashy(and
> besides, there *are* certain songs on those that are too thrashy for
> me...)
Heh, Force of Habit. That's gotta be the worst album Exodus ever produced.
Give me Pleasures of the Flesh anyday.
willy
Shiflet wrote:
> >I don't know how you can be bored by it.
>
> Because the music is boring. Not particulary fast, not particulary
> heavy, just particulary dull. It lacks the power and the pacing that
> made the first several albums great.
>
> Geez, man. "Well, I think it's boring because it's boring." It's plenty heavy, fast in places and slow
> in others. It may not be as raw as the first albums, but it's got more than enough power. It's also a
> much more mature album lyrically and melodically than the first ones. To have a band that doesn't set
> out to write a concept album, but rather the concept album writes itself from what's coming out of the
> band, is a sure testament to how they were really creatively a unit, very cohesive in their style and in
> their thinking.
> I go to sleep listening to Ozzy, Sabbath, Helloween....
>
> I do this sometimes, too. But I meant that I personally enjoy Seventh Son when listened to loud. And
> when alert.
> >I like driving to it--most Maiden is great for driving.
>
> Correction:Most pre-LAD Maiden is great for driving.
CORRECTION: I like driving to it--most Maiden is great for driving.(please disagree, but don't correct
;-) )
> I like fast
> exciting stuff to play when I'm in the car, and SSOASS doesn't meet
> those conditions.
>
> I disagree.
>
> I have no desire to sing along with SS. The lyrics are fine, but when
> the music's dull it defeats the purpose of listening to it in the first
> place.
I don't just mean what the lyrics are about, I AM talking about the music--the melodies, and how
singable they are. And they are quite singable. For me a big part of Maiden has been Bruce's ability to
push out a melody. It's perhaps the biggest thing he brings to the table. (Side note--think how awful
some of the old lyric-crammed songs that Steve wrote would have been without Bruce to eloquate them or
sing them fast. Ryme is one that comes to mind. And we have a few examples with Blaze of how NOT to
adequately fit the words in. Like accenting 'prejudice' on the wrong syllable in Edge of Darkness, to
name one).
>
> I wasn't trying to dislike it.
Oh I know that. I'm sure you wanted to like it just like I did at first, but it did nothing for you.
I hear you there.
> I tried to enjoy listening to it
> actually. Didn't work. The album bores me. The music is dull, and that
> is not what I care to hear.
Please, oh dear lord please, say that the music is dull again.
> Why should I play an album that *might* grow
> on me repeatedly, when I can play an album that's good enough that I
> *already* like it?
That's like saying, "why should I date a girl and *eventually* make love to her and mean it when I can
get a *French prostitute* right now?" Well, not really, but sort of.
> An album shouldn't take 15 or so listens to draw the
> listener in, that's not a particulary effective way of doing things.
I couldn't disagree more.
Many times things that require patience and grow on you are much more rewarding and can have a more
permanent effect on you than things which bring you immediate or superficial pleasure. Not to pose as
Obi-Wan Kenobi, or anything.
I don't mean to have come across as mean-spirited, because that's not my intention at all. I just
feel that you may be denying yourself a lot of pleasure, not just with this album, but with other music
and really with everything if you're that quick with your decisions.
Get down hard with whatever you listen to today, and UP THE IRONS!!!
>
>
>
Shiflet
> Many times things that require patience and grow on you are much more rewarding and can have a more
> permanent effect on you than things which bring you immediate or superficial pleasure.
Not from my experiences, with movies, music, games...
willy
Shiflet wrote:
>
>
> > Many times things that require patience and grow on you are much more rewarding and can have a more
> > permanent effect on you than things which bring you immediate or superficial pleasure.
>
> Not from my experiences, with movies, music, games...
>
I know. I'm suggesting that some of your experiences could be revisited, opened up. That's the point of
what I was saying. Never mind. You've apparently made up your mind about the things you will experience
before you've experienced them, and that is saddening.
Dave
can't tell you how many times I've filed an album away for 6 months, then gone back for a second listen to be
comletely suprised by how much I like it.
-Dave
willy
Dave wrote:
> That's so true. Marillion are one of my favorite bands, now. When I bought their first album I hated it. I
> can't tell you how many times I've filed an album away for 6 months, then gone back for a second listen to be
> comletely suprised by how much I like it.
>
> -Dave
>
I hear you, Dave. Easily ten of my twenty favorite albums put me to sleep for half a year, easy. Sometimes
artists are very subtle and require a patient listener, and other times the artists are blatant but I have to
unlearn what I have learned. Doh! Star Wars again.
Shiflet
> I know. I'm suggesting that some of your experiences could be revisited, opened up. That's the point of
> what I was saying. Never mind. You've apparently made up your mind about the things you will experience
> before you've experienced them, and that is saddening.
You don't need to play an album 30 times before you've "experienced" it.
Shiflet
> I agree with you guys too. My favorite albums are the ones that didn't do
> much for me at first, but after a couple of weeks really grow on you.
> Albums that "don't turn my crank" are usually ones that I thought were
> awesome during the first few listens, but bored me later on.
So far, every album I consider my favorites are ones I liked at least
farely well on first listen, ie Melissa, Abigail, TCW, etc. "Them" took
a bit longer to grow on me than most of King's stuff, and I like it now,
but it still doesn't compare to Abigail, Fatal Portrait, or
Conspiracy(all of which I liked on first listen...)
Curtis Rea
I agree with you guys too. My favorite albums are the ones that didn't do
willy
Shiflet wrote:
> You don't need to play an album 30 times before you've "experienced" it.
>
> I disagree entirely. Again, that's my point. But you've made up your mind.
> No use talking about it anymore.
Shiflet
> I disagree entirely. Again, that's my point. But you've made up your mind.
Unfortunately, you missed my point as well. My point was that yes, some
albums *do* take some getting used to. *But*, how many times does it
take? After so many times, do you like it because you really *like* it,
or is it just because you've played it so many times you've grown
accustomed to it? I don't like a lot of things, but I imagine if I
played them over and over again eventually it would just erode away
whatever problem I had with it because of the repitition, *not* because
I actually liked it for what it was.
> No use talking about it anymore.
If you wish.
willy
Shiflet wrote:
> Unfortunately, you missed my point as well. My point was that yes, some
> albums *do* take some getting used to. *But*, how many times does it
> take? After so many times, do you like it because you really *like* it,
> or is it just because you've played it so many times you've grown
> accustomed to it? I don't like a lot of things, but I imagine if I
> played them over and over again eventually it would just erode away
> whatever problem I had with it because of the repitition, *not* because
> I actually liked it for what it was.
>
I believe you have never gotten my point... maybe a few years down the line you
will. Do you honestly
think I'm saying good work will erode away your problems with it because of
repetition? Well I'm not.
You obviously speak in theoreticals because you've never experienced what I'm
talking about.
No Prayer is a shitty album, by all standards I think. But some people listened
to it enough and
eventually the turd was polished into a diamond for them, or at least a shinier
turd. That's not
what I'm talking about.
I'm an artist and musician, and when an artist of any kind puts a great deal of
deep emotion, thought,
Revision, and subtlety into a work, I feel I owe more than a cursory glance. I
give some measure of
thought and emotion to it, too. Many of the greatest paintings in the world are
Completely over your
head the first time you see them, even the first ten times you see them. That's
partially because of the
image overload we experience in this age, but also a result of the depth of the
artist's thought as opposed
to my initial "eh, doesn't do anything for me" reaction. If you don't give art
or music it's gestation period,
and consider it from many angles, then you never really get to the center of what
the artist is trying to say,
musically or lyrically or visually or emotionally. And to not try that is to
disrespect the artist by dismissing
what he/she's done too quickly.
So i say emphatically that looking at one of these works, or listening to
certain songs, and writing them
off quickly is an extremely immature and superficial road to take, and again
without trying to be mean to you,
I feel that your stance on this is quite immature, underdeveloped.
I'm not starting a war here, and I don't want to really talk about it more,
but please consider a little of what
I've said because if you've never experienced something suddenly hitting you on a
deeper level like this
then you're *really* missing something.
I willll not post on this again unless asked.
Shiflet
> I believe you have never gotten my point... maybe a few years down the line you
> will. Do you honestly
> think I'm saying good work will erode away your problems with it because of
> repetition? Well I'm not.
You're comparing two completely different subjects now. Working and
listening to music are not the same thing.
> I'm an artist and musician, and when an artist of any kind puts a great deal of
> deep emotion, thought,
> Revision, and subtlety into a work, I feel I owe more than a cursory glance.
Again, you don't answer me. How *many* times do you have to see it?
Looking at the picture 20 times is quite a bit more than a "cursory
glance"...
> I give some measure of
> thought and emotion to it, too. Many of the greatest paintings in the world are
> Completely over your
> head the first time you see them, even the first ten times you see them. That's
> partially because of the
> image overload we experience in this age, but also a result of the depth of the
> artist's thought as opposed
> to my initial "eh, doesn't do anything for me" reaction. If you don't give art
> or music it's gestation period,
> and consider it from many angles, then you never really get to the center of what
> the artist is trying to say,
> musically or lyrically or visually or emotionally.
All you have to do is give me an apporoximation. How long is it's
"gestation period"? If it's "gestation period is something like 50+
listens, it's not worth the effort.
> And to not try that is to
> disrespect the artist by dismissing
> what he/she's done too quickly.
I didn't "not try that." I've clearly stated that I've listened to
SSOASS repeatedly, I've *given* it a chance to grow on me. I've given is
*many* chances. What exactly *is* it's gestation period? 50 listens?
100?
> So i say emphatically that looking at one of these works, or listening to
> certain songs, and writing them
> off quickly is an extremely immature and superficial road to take, and again
> without trying to be mean to you,
> I feel that your stance on this is quite immature, underdeveloped.
How sad. You haven't even read what I've written. I've stated that I've
given it chances. I didn't dismiss it with one listen, and I never said
I did. After *many* listens, I've realized that I *was* correct with my
original judgement.
> I'm not starting a war here, and I don't want to really talk about it more,
> but please consider a little of what
> I've said because if you've never experienced something suddenly hitting you on a
> deeper level like this
> then you're *really* missing something.
Then perhaps I'm missing something. There are many albums I liked on
first listen years ago(Aqualung for example) that I still love today.
There are *not* many that have grown on me particulary. Some have made
their way from uninteresting to somewhat better(to use Tull as an
example again, the A album), but ones that have suddenly become my
favorite? Nope. Same thing applies to movies and games pretty much.
> I willll not post on this again unless asked.
Then consider this asking. You did not answer the question I asked, and
you've totally ignored what I said about giving it chances.
willy
Everybody's friends here. You and me too.
Shiflet wrote:
>
>
>
>
> You're comparing two completely different subjects now. Working and
> listening to music are not the same thing.
No no no, when I said "work" I meant artwork, musical work. Saying that good
"work"--music or art or anything "worked" at may not reveal all of its attributes
initially. I'm saying that I don't mean it will 'erode' your resistance and brainwash
you into accepting it, I just meant that subtle things can take a long time to reveal
themselves, and may not reveal themselves the way you expect them to or are used to.
It may fill a different void than the one other albums/Maiden albums fill.
>
>
> Again, you don't answer me. How *many* times do you have to see it?
> Looking at the picture 20 times is quite a bit more than a "cursory
> glance"...
True, but when you compare 20 times to 200 or 2000 times, it kind of can be a
cursory glance. But it's not the number of times alone, also the quality and depth of
the perception. But I'm sure you got that. Maybe not "how many," you know? There's
no number or formula. It can also depend on what you're going through at the time and
all sorts of factors. I've seen movies and thought they were great, and then seen
them two years later , when I was quite a different person, and thought, "god that
movie's terrible. What an idiot I must have been." Also the reverse has happened--a
movie was maybe over my head or not blatant enough or from a point of view I'd not yet
experienced or identified with, and I was really against it at one point and then much
later I found myself very extremely on the other side of the fence. And I almost
always end up feeling that my later impression is the better one, and less likely to
change. It's amazing how great the effect of outside forces is on our
opinions--whether we're in a postion of power or suppliance, whether we're doing well
or doing poorly, or even just the mood you're in on a given day. It's hard to
accurately know how much this happens, because who we are is constantly changing.
>
> All you have to do is give me an apporoximation. How long is it's
> "gestation period"? If it's "gestation period is something like 50+
> listens, it's not worth the effort.
I know what you mean, but I unfortunately can't do that because I'm not you. An
album may take a day for me, a year for you, or vice versa. I'm just saying that 20
times, 50 times, whatever, may still not be enough reason to write something off.
Just stay open to the possibilites that are there. (Reluctantly) Even No Prayer has a
couple of songs that can grow on you, but I try not to mention that out loud often ;
>). Tangent--I wonder why Steve keeps sticking lines like "I'm the (fill in
occupation) " into his songs. I certainly don't think the Trooper would've been any
better if "I am the Trooper" or "Hey, look at me, I'm the Trooper!" had been in there
25 times.
> What exactly *is* it's gestation period? 50 listens?
> 100?
Again, I can't say exactly, maybe it'll never grow on you. I personally think
it's much more thought-out than any of their albums since, and actually more than some
of the ones before, and with works like that they usually find their place in you
after a while.
But this issue transcends that album. I just hope you allow plenty of time for
other art and music and people and philosophies to pervade your life. It will be
worth it.
>
> How sad. You haven't even read what I've written. I've stated that I've
> given it chances. I didn't dismiss it with one listen, and I never said
> I did. After *many* listens, I've realized that I *was* correct with my
> original judgement.
Patience, my friend, still more patience. Maybe not this album, but in general.
> > I'm not starting a war here, and I don't want to really talk about it more,
> > but please consider a little of what
> > I've said because if you've never experienced something suddenly hitting you on a
> > deeper level like this
> > then you're *really* missing something.
>
> Then perhaps I'm missing something. There are many albums I liked on
> first listen years ago(Aqualung for example) that I still love today.
> There are *not* many that have grown on me particulary. Some have made
> their way from uninteresting to somewhat better(to use Tull as an
> example again, the A album), but ones that have suddenly become my
> favorite? Nope. Same thing applies to movies and games pretty much.
This shows that there is still hope, though. Not *suddenly* your favorites, but
things slowly start to stick in your head, or come to mind in a certain situation, and
you say, "Oh, so that's one of the things THAT line can mean!" And it's a
revelation. A joyous one. Then all the work and thought the writer took to get that
point in his/her writing/living process begins to become more apparent.
Interestingly, there's a thread that's been started on this very same topic--the
"What Album did you hate first and then liked later" thread. How timely.
Hope this provides some food for thought.
Shiflet
>
> You seem to be taking this a bit personally, please don't.
> Everybody's friends here. You and me too.
> No no no, when I said "work" I meant artwork, musical work. Saying that good
> "work"--music or art or anything "worked" at may not reveal all of its attributes
> initially. I'm saying that I don't mean it will 'erode' your resistance and brainwash
> you into accepting it, I just meant that subtle things can take a long time to reveal
> themselves, and may not reveal themselves the way you expect them to or are used to.
> It may fill a different void than the one other albums/Maiden albums fill.
We shall see.
> True, but when you compare 20 times to 200 or 2000 times, it kind of can be a
> cursory glance.
But then, when comaparing 200 to 2000, 200 is a cursory glance, so where
does it stop?
> But it's not the number of times alone, also the quality and depth of
> the perception. But I'm sure you got that. Maybe not "how many," you know? There's
> no number or formula. It can also depend on what you're going through at the time and
> all sorts of factors. I've seen movies and thought they were great, and then seen
> them two years later , when I was quite a different person, and thought, "god that
> movie's terrible. What an idiot I must have been." Also the reverse has happened--a
> movie was maybe over my head or not blatant enough or from a point of view I'd not yet
> experienced or identified with, and I was really against it at one point and then much
> later I found myself very extremely on the other side of the fence. And I almost
> always end up feeling that my later impression is the better one, and less likely to
> change. It's amazing how great the effect of outside forces is on our
> opinions--whether we're in a postion of power or suppliance, whether we're doing well
> or doing poorly, or even just the mood you're in on a given day. It's hard to
> accurately know how much this happens, because who we are is constantly changing.
Weird. When I like an album/movie, I tend to like it no matter how my
day/situation is. I may not be in the mood for it, but I still like
it...
> I know what you mean, but I unfortunately can't do that because I'm not you. An
> album may take a day for me, a year for you, or vice versa. I'm just saying that 20
> times, 50 times, whatever, may still not be enough reason to write something off.
Once it starts getting to that point, it *is* time to write something
off. Why listen to something 50 times and decide you like it, when
there's about 10 other albums you can hear less times and like even
more?
> Just stay open to the possibilites that are there. (Reluctantly) Even No Prayer has a
> couple of songs that can grow on you, but I try not to mention that out loud often
Of course. I don't think there's any Maiden album that doesn't have
*any* decent songs on it...
> Again, I can't say exactly, maybe it'll never grow on you. I personally think
> it's much more thought-out than any of their albums since, and actually more than some
> of the ones before, and with works like that they usually find their place in you
> after a while.
I agree it's more thought out, but it's still not as interesting to me.
> But this issue transcends that album. I just hope you allow plenty of time for
> other art and music and people and philosophies to pervade your life. It will be
> worth it.
> This shows that there is still hope, though. Not *suddenly* your favorites,
They still aren't, and probably won't be. It went from listenable to
decent. A is still one of my least favorite Tull albums. Aqualung is
still my fave. It's been my fave for 10+ years. Albums can improve, but
the ones I don't like on first listen never become faves, and the ones I
*love* on first listen tend to remain that way. If I don't like the
album at all when I first hear it, it's not gonna become a fave. It
might become tolerable, but that's it, at least based on my past
experiences...
> but
> things slowly start to stick in your head, or come to mind in a certain situation, and
> you say, "Oh, so that's one of the things THAT line can mean!" And it's a
> revelation. A joyous one. Then all the work and thought the writer took to get that
> point in his/her writing/living process begins to become more apparent.
Haven't figured A out yet, and I don't know how long I've listened to
that one...
> Interestingly, there's a thread that's been started on this very same topic--the
> "What Album did you hate first and then liked later" thread. How timely.
>
> Hope this provides some food for thought.
Danny Shiflet