"The Origin of Six Million."
Anonymous
kmc...@vex.net (Kenneth McVay) wrote:
>Charles Power <kar...@clark.net> wrote:
> >That's curious. Such a quote has appeared on this conference a number
> >of times, and as I recall never said that six million were "being
> >exterminated" but that six million were in danger of dying if food
> >aid were not provided. But of course putting it as Irving does
> >serves his purposes better by suggesting that "six million Jews
> >exterminated" is some sort of standard tactic of the Zionist
> >conspiracy.
>
> A quick visit to
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/wwi-holocaust-01.html,
> where the entire text of Mr. Glynn's magazine article
>
You seem to be missing the point, which is: why was the six million figure mentioned in
1919, too? This, along with other info posted about this figure (see below) makes one
suspect that the figure of six million has some sort of significance for the Jews and was
chosen for that reason, not because it was the actual number of Jews killed in the
Holocaust or threatened with starvation in Glynn's article. BTW, this article was posted
by Michael several weeks ago verbatim and no attempt was made to say that Glynn was
referring to the Jews' being exterminated, and the source was stated as being a
periodical, The American Hebrew. As I said, that isn't the point.
Reproduction of Michael's post:
A very eloquent plea. You can read the entire article at:
"http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/191031crucifixion.html
=======================================================
The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop!
By Martin H. Glynn
(Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)
>From across the sea six million men and women call to us for help, and
eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.
These children, these men and women are our fellow-members of the
human family, with the same claim on life as we, the same
susceptibility to the winter's cold, the same propensity to death
before the fangs of hunger. Within them reside the illimitable
possibilities for the advancement of the human race as naturally would
reside in six million human beings. We may not be their keepers but we
ought to be their helpers.
In the face of death, in the throes of starvation there is no place
for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical
differentiations of race. In this catastrophe, when six million human
beings are being whirled toward the grave by a cruel and relentless
fate, only the most idealistic promptings of human nature should sway
the heart and move the hand.
Six million men and women are dying from lack of the necessaries of
life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is
upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of
the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a
bigoted lust for Jewish blood.
In this threatened holocaust of human life, ............."
From:
The American Hebrew
October 31, 1919
page 582
==========================================================
Did you say 1919?
Check it out:
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/191031crucifixion.html
[end of Michael's post]
Another post by Michael:
I am responsible for this Post. (M)
Copyright (c) 1997 - Ingrid A. Rimland
April 23, 1997
Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
I have just started reading David Irving's newest - "Nuremberg: The
Last Battle" and thought that I should share with you a segment of a
chapter appropriately called "The Origin of Six Million."
It starts on page 61, describing an interesting visit between the
American chief prosecutor, Justice Robert H. Jackson and three sage
attorneys:
". . . A few days before leaving for London Jackson visited
F.B.I. officials in New York on June 11, 1945. Here he had, probably
not at his own wish, his first meeting with several powerful Jewish
organizations who had already made quite clear to him they wanted a
hand in running the trial. In an office provided by the F.B.I. in the
Federal Building, three leading lawyers, Judge Nathan Perlman, Dr
Jacob Robinson, and Dr Alexander Kohanski, came to exert pressure on
behalf of a coalition of representative American organizations.
They began by heaping picturesque praise on Jackson's first
report to the president, which had now been published, describing it
as 'like rain on the desert to the Jews.' While others had looked for
precedents in the seventeenth or eighteenth centuries, they flattered
him, Jackson had taken his 'from the twenty-second century.'
These lawyers, who greatly impressed him by their intelligence
and erudition, had hopefully read into his report to the president the
implication that he intended to treat the Nazi persecution of the Jews
as a crime in its own right. Dr Robinson handed him a copy of the
treaty of Sevres in which the Allies had laid down penalties on the
Turks for their atrocities against the Armenians during World War
One. This might serve as a useful precedent. Robinson also suggested
that the tribunal prosecute Alfred Rosenberg in his capacity as chief
Nazi philosopher; they were not seeking vengeance, swore Robinson,
'nor, of course, compensation for Jewish losses'.
How great were these losses, inquired Jackson, seeking a figure
to use at the coming trial. 'Six million,' responded Dr. Robinson, and
indicated that the figure included Jews in all Nazi-occupied lands
'from the Channel to Stalingrad,'
Jackson noted that day:
'I was particularly interested in knowing the source and
reliability of his estimate as I know no authentic data on it.'
Robinson said that he had arrived at his figure by extrapolation
from the known statistics for the Jewish population in 1929 and those
believed to be surviving now. In other words, his figure was somewhere
between a hopeful estimate and an educated guess. 'The difference are
assumed to be killed or in hiding,' he said. Given the turmoils and
tragedies of a war-torn Europe ravaged by bombs and plagues, it was
not a data basis on which a statistician would properly have relied.
Where were the shifting frontiers? Who, indeed, was a Jew? These were
questions about which cartographers, ethnographers, religious
fanatics, and politicians are still at each other's throats. Six
million? By sad but extraordinary coincidence, the American Jewish
community had raised a similar outcry about a 'holocaust' a quarter of
a century earlier, after World War One. In a 1919 speech the governor
of New York, Martin Glynn, had claimed that 'six million' were being
exterminated.
The delegation expressed to Jackson their fears that the Allies
would choose the less onerous course, of merely prosecuting the Nazis
for lesser offenses. These men wanted a decision based on the
persecution of the Jews which, they averred, all the post-war trials
so far conducted had sidestepped. They even asked for a separate court
to try these charges, and failing that, they asked for the right to
have an _amicus curiae_ in Jackson's courtroom to 'represent the six
million slaughtered.'
Foreseeing inevitable problems, Jackson demurred. All the other
persecuted minorities would then feel entitled to the same rights. He
gave the delegation no encouragement, but promised to think about it.
Having obviously failed in that mission, they then asked him at least
to appoint an officer on his staff specifically to handle their
angle.. ."
[end post]
Reading these it looks to me like the six million figure was chosen for some
other reason than accuracy.
Charles Power
nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>kar...@clark.net (Charles Power) wrote:
>OK, then, I can honestly say that I don't doubt that the Holocaust occurred and I think
>the Nazis intentionally murdered millions of Jews. I still wonder, though, if the six
>million figure might have some religious significance and if that might have something to
>do with why that particular number was chosen.
What is your problem with the obvious default assumption that it
simply represents an honest estimate, being a total (rounded off)
of various national estimates as you can find in any number of
books about the Holocaust? Why would you lend even the slightest
credence to the idea that this number was "chosen" on any other
basis?
--
***********************************************************************
Charles R.L. Power ftp://ftp.clark.net/pub/karlpov/
Documents in Envoy format, including the Bible in Esperanto, Doctor Syn
(Scarecrow of Romney Marsh) novels, other neat stuff
Gord McFee
In <5ts9qq$m...@basement.replay.com>, on 08/25/97
at 05:54 PM, nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> kar...@clark.net (Charles Power) wrote:
> > nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> >
> > >I don't see why you have to be insulting about it.
> >
> > Because you're a gutless wonder who is insinuating that the Holocaust=
> > is a hoax simply because a number--an estimate--turned up at some
> > earlier point in history. That's idiotic.
> >
> OK, then, I can honestly say that I don't doubt that the Holocaust
> occurred and I think the Nazis intentionally murdered millions of
> Jews. I still wonder, though, if the six million figure might have
> some religious significance and if that might have something to do
> with why that particular number was chosen.
It has no religious significance that I am aware of. It is an estimate
made shortly after the war, at which time the horrors of the camps were
just becoming known, and it stuck in people's minds. It is easier to
remember than 5.1 million, or 5.7 million, and is reasonably accurate
for the number of Jews killed. The reason there is a focus on Jews is
that Hitler himself targeted them. C.f. the following quote:
<begin quote>
Hitler said that the results of the next war
w=FCrde "nicht die Bolschewisierung der Erde und damit der Sieg des
Judentums sein, sondern die Vernichtung der j=FCdischen Rasse in Europa"
(would not be the Bolshevization of Europe and therewith the victory of
Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe).
--Adolf Hitler, Reichstag speech, January 30, 1939
<end quote>
Hope this helps.
--
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net>
I'll write no line before its time
Gord McFee
In <340A47F2...@bigfoot.com>, on 08/31/97
at 11:43 PM, Bob Blake <bob_...@bigfoot.com> said:
> Prove it. Gas chambers? Proven to be gas chambers? By whom? When?
> Ashes? Where? Coal residues from cremations? Where? Weight? Give me
> facts or shut up.
It has been proven. The evidence has been posted in this newsgroup
dozens of times, and I have no intention of reposting it now. Why don't
you prove that it didn't happen? None of you has succeeded in doing
that yet.
If you are sincerely interested in evidence (and it is obvious that you
are not), do some research. Or else, *you* shut up.
> Gord McFee wrote:
> > In <5ts9qq$m...@basement.replay.com>, on 08/25/97
> > at 05:54 PM, nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> >
> > > kar...@clark.net (Charles Power) wrote:
> >
> > > > nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> > > >
> > > > >I don't see why you have to be insulting about it.
> > > >
> > > > Because you're a gutless wonder who is insinuating that the Holoc=
aust
> > > > is a hoax simply because a number--an estimate--turned up at some=
> > > > earlier point in history. That's idiotic.
> > > >
> > > OK, then, I can honestly say that I don't doubt that the Holocaust
> > > occurred and I think the Nazis intentionally murdered millions of
> > > Jews. I still wonder, though, if the six million figure might have=
> > > some religious significance and if that might have something to do
> > > with why that particular number was chosen.
> >
> > It has no religious significance that I am aware of. It is an estima=
te
> > made shortly after the war, at which time the horrors of the camps we=
re
> > just becoming known, and it stuck in people's minds. It is easier to=
> > remember than 5.1 million, or 5.7 million, and is reasonably accurate=
> > for the number of Jews killed. The reason there is a focus on Jews i=
s
> > that Hitler himself targeted them. C.f. the following quote:
> >
> > <begin quote>
> >
> > Hitler said that the results of the next war
> >
> > w=FCrde "nicht die Bolschewisierung der Erde und damit der Sieg des
> > Judentums sein, sondern die Vernichtung der j=FCdischen Rasse in Euro=
pa"
> > (would not be the Bolshevization of Europe and therewith the victory =
Mark Van Alstine
In article <340A47F2...@bigfoot.com>, Bob Blake
<bob_...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Prove it. Gas chambers? Proven to be gas chambers? By whom?
By members of the SS. For example: Ho"ss, Dr. Kramer, Broad, Bo"ck, Hess,
Ho"lblinger, Dr. Morgen, Storch, Hofmann, Dr. Wiebeck, Baer, Gricksch, and
Dejaco.
By former prisoners. For example: Fejnsilber, Szlama Dragon, Tauber,
Mu"ller, Dr. Lettich, Dr. Bendel, Dr. Nyiszli, Vrba, Wetzler, Mordowicz,
Rosin, Kula, Buki, Filip and Dov Pai"sikovic, Avram Dragon, Rosenblum,
Silberberg, and Mandelbaum.
> When?
During and after the war.
> Ashes? Where?
At Auschwitz the "ashes" of the victims, according to Ho"ss (and others)
were "constantly removed and crushed to powder" and dumped in the Vistula
RIver. Even so, incinerated remains of the victims have been found:
<begin quote>
In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow,
was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry
out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the
locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of
Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes,
bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the
holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in
the Conservation Department of the Museum
--(Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death
Camp_, p. 179n).
<end quote>
Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits
> Coal residues from cremations? Where? Weight?
Some 240 coke delivery reciepts to Auschwitz have survived which show that
between February 1942 and October 1943 that show some 1,005 tonnes of coke
were delivered to Auschwitz. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.224.)
[snip]
Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--bit right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gord McFee
In <340B5223...@bigfoot.com>, on 09/01/97
at 06:39 PM, Bob Blake <bob_...@bigfoot.com> said:
> You say you have published proof. Where is it? Once again, I must
> state:
> GIVE ME FORENSIC PROOF THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED
> Prove it. Where are the bodies? Where are the ashes? Where are the
> coal residues from the burning of so many bodies? What "gas chambers"
> have "lead arsenic" in the walls from the gassings? How many died of
> typhus? Starvation caused by allied bombing of roads and blockades of
> food? How did Israel and America get so many Jews if so many died?
> Answer these questions.
> You can't. It's a lie.
No, "Bob", it's the truth. Read up on it before you make your vacuous
statements.
Michael Ives
Gord McFee is a proven delusional liar. Ignore his paranoid rantings.
Gord McFee
In <340D99...@concentric.net>, on 09/03/97
I *do* know you.
I see what you have done. You were starting to be halfway polite under
your other name, so you had to come up with a new one so you could go
into "baiter" mode again. Almost tricked me.
Gord McFee
In <340F76E8...@compuserv.com>, on 09/04/97
> Gord McFee wrote:
> > In <340B5223...@bigfoot.com>, on 09/01/97
> > at 06:39 PM, Bob Blake <bob_...@bigfoot.com> said:
> >
> > > You say you have published proof. Where is it? Once again, I must
> > > state:
> >
> > > GIVE ME FORENSIC PROOF THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED
> >
> > > Prove it. Where are the bodies? Where are the ashes? Where are the
> > > coal residues from the burning of so many bodies? What "gas chambers"
> > > have "lead arsenic" in the walls from the gassings? How many died of
> > > typhus? Starvation caused by allied bombing of roads and blockades of
> > > food? How did Israel and America get so many Jews if so many died?
> > > Answer these questions.
> >
> > > You can't. It's a lie.
> >
> > No, "Bob", it's the truth. Read up on it before you make your vacuous
> > statements.
> You have it backward, McFee. No more bullshit. You read up on it. You
> provide the forensic evidence "Bob" called for.
"Charlie", I'll give you the same advice I gave "Bob". Read up on this
stuff a bit before you try to play with the big boys. You little
kiddies haven't even made it through rookie camp yet.
> You see, McFee, you haven't measured up.
> Ask your wife.
Grade 2 level ad hominem. Man, the NA is really going for the bottom
dwellers now. What a pathetic bunch of losers.
> Charlie Chan
> "My name's a fake."
That isn't the only thing about you that's fake.
Tell me, "Charlie", do *any* of gutless swine post under your real
names? Are you *all* cowards?
John Morris
In <340e12bf$5$tzpsrr$mr2...@news2.ibm.net>, on Wed, 03 Sep 97
21:45:35, Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>In <340D99...@concentric.net>, on 09/03/97
> at 10:09 AM, Michael Ives <mi...@concentric.net> said:
[snip]
>> Gord McFee is a proven delusional liar. Ignore his paranoid rantings.
>I *do* know you.
>I see what you have done. You were starting to be halfway polite under
>your other name, so you had to come up with a new one so you could go
>into "baiter" mode again. Almost tricked me.
I have learned through hard experience that the nym "Michael Ives" is
a master baiter.
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Scripture veteris capiunt exempla futuri>
--
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
Mark Van Alstine
In article <340F7854...@compuserv.com>, Charlie Chan
<cc...@compuserv.com> wrote:
[snip]
> This proves it didn't happen.
More opium dreams from "Charlie."
> If you dig 303 holes and only find "traces", meaning minute and barely
measurable amounts, then you have to wonder what happen to the so-called
4.5 million persons....
No reason to wonder at all. According to Ho"ss, the commandant of Auschwitz:
<begin quote>
The extermination process in Auschwitz took place as follows: Jews
selected for gassing were taken as quietly as possible to the crematories.
The men were already seperated from the women. In the undressing chambers,
prisoners of the Sonderkommandos, who were specially chosen for this
purpose, would tell them in their own language that they were going to be
bathed and deloused, and that they must leave their clothing neatly
together, and, above all, remember where they put them, so that they would
be able to find them again quickly after delousing. The Sonderkommando had
the greatest interest in seeing that the operation proceeded smoothly and
quickly. After undressing, the Jews went into the gas chamber, which was
furnished with showers and water pipes and gave a realistic impression of
a bath house.
The women went in first with their children, followed by the men, who were
always fewer in number. This part of the operation nearly always went
smoothly since the Sonderkommando would always calm those who showed any
anxiety or perhaps had some clue as to their fate. As an additional
precaution, the Sonderkommando and an SS soldier always stayed in the
chamber until the very last moment.
The door would be screwed shut and the waiting disinfection squads would
immediately pour the gas [crystals] into the vents in the ceiling of the
gas chamber down an air shaft which went to the floor. This ensured the
rapid distribution of the gas. The process could be observed through the
peep hole in the door. Those who were standing next to the air shaft were
klled immediately. I can state that about one-third died immediately. The
remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air. The
screaming soon, however, turned to gasping and in a few moments everyone
lay still. After twenty minutes at the most no movement could be detected.
The time required for the gas to take effect varied according to weather
conditions and depended on whether it was damp or dry, cold or warm. It
also depended on the quality of the gas, which was never exactly the same,
and on the composition of the transports, which might contain a high
proportion of healthy Jews, or the old and sick, or children. The vicitrms
became unconscious after a few minutes, according to the distance to from
the air shaft. Those who screamed and those who were old, sick, or weak,
or the small children died quicker thn those who were jealthy or young.
The door was opened a half an hour after the gas was thrown in and the
ventilation system was turned on. There were no noticeable change in the
bodies and no sign of convulsions or discoloration. Only after the bodies
had been left lying for some time- several hours -did the usual death
stans appear where they were laid. Seldom did it occur that they were
soiled with feces. There were no signs of wounds of any kind. The faces
were not contorted.
The Sonderkommando now set agbout removing the gold teeth and cutting the
hair from the women. After this, the bodies were taken up an elevator and
laid out in front of the ovens, which had meanwhile been fired up.
Depending in the size of the bodies, up to three corpses could be put
through one oven door at the same time. The time required for cremation
also depended on the number of bodies in each retort, but on average it
took twenty minutes. As previously stated, Crematories II and III could
cremate two thousand bodies in twenty-four hours, but a higher number was
not possible without causing damage to the installations. Crematories IV
and V should have been able to cremate 1,500 bodies in twenty-four hours,
but as far as I know this figure was never reached.
During the period when the fires were kept continuously burning without a
break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and
crushed to powder. The ashes were then taken by trucks to the Vistula
[River], where they immediately dissolved and drifted away. The ashes from
the burning pits near Bunker II and from Cremaotory V were handled in the
same way.
<end quote>
Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, pp.43-45.
> If that many had been killed, more than just "trace material" would be
found.
What part of "the ashes were then taken by trucks to the Vistula [River],
where they immediately dissolved and drifted away. The ashes from the
burning pits near Bunker II and from Cremaotory V were handled in the same
way" does "Charlie not understand?
> Forensic scientist have found traces of a single corpse murder on a property
> in many places.
So? Where's Jimmy Hoffa then?
> When you murder 4.5 million persons, you have to traces for
> each one....
Why? What if you incinerated them crushed their remains into fine powder,
mixing them all up, and tossed the ashes in a big river? What then? How do
you figure out precisely how many people have been murdered? Hmm?
> in other words 4.5 million times the mere "trace" a forensic
> scientist uses with "one corpse" to create a case.
Gibberish.
Meanwhile, according to Czech:
<begin quote>
June 7 [1944]
The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
in size.**
** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127).
<end quote>
Source: _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various
Documents of the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping
(origional in BA Koblenz).
> The 303 digs with just a few faint traces in 40 holes is really proof that it
> didn't happen as stated.
Are you suggesting, then, that this meant that the corpses of those
murdered in the gas-chambers _weren't_ incinerated in the Kremas? (Or the
incineration pits?) If not, where _were_ they incinerated? How where they
incinerated? Are you implying that they _weren't_ incinerated? (Or that
they were even murdered in the gas-chambers?) If so, what happened to
them? What evidence do you have that would support such "theories?"
Given that you have presented a series of fatuous "objections" (which is
par for the course for you) as to why the furnaces in the Kremas could not
have operated as they did, according to the designs, estimates, and
testimonies of those who built, managed, and operated them; I am, to say
the least, skeptical of your unsubstantiated claims otherwise.
> Surely, the cremation of more than 4.5 million would leave far more than
traces in 40 spots.
Why should it when the pits were emptied of the incinerated remains of the
victims by prisoners? According to Czech:
<begin quote>
December 5 [1944]
The woodland demolition squad is created in Birkenau, to which 50 female
prisoner are sent. The squad works on the grounds of the so-called big
sauna and Crematorium IV. It must clear the grounds and fill in and cover
with grass all the pits previously used for burning the corpses of those
killed in the gas chambers. It must also sift through the human ash
remains before they are strewn in the Vistula.** LIttle trees are planted
on the leveled grounds.
[...]
** The male and female prisoners attempt to sabotage the orders of the SS
and avoid whenever possible removing the ashes of the murdered before the
pits are filled in, in the hope that these human remains- some
incompletely burned bones -will in the future prove the crime of genocide
that was committed here.
<end quote>
Source: Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.759. Cf. APMO, D-AuII-3a/66b,
Labor Deployment List.
Obviously, some of these human remains that the labor Kommando
clandestinely left in the incineration pits were discovered by Hyrokop in
1965.
> I would leave massive evidence along all areas of the county from bone,
ashes, hair....
You would. Slob.
<ignorant gibberish snipped>
> No. You've just proven it didn't happen.
Take another hit, "Charlie." Maybe you'll "prove" the Moon is made of
cheese too....
Gord McFee
In <34222510...@news.v-wave.com>, on 09/06/97
at 09:46 AM, check.the...@nospam.ualberta.edu (John Morris)
said:
> In <340e12bf$5$tzpsrr$mr2...@news2.ibm.net>, on Wed, 03 Sep 97
> 21:45:35, Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> >In <340D99...@concentric.net>, on 09/03/97
> > at 10:09 AM, Michael Ives <mi...@concentric.net> said:
> [snip]
> >> Gord McFee is a proven delusional liar. Ignore his paranoid rantings.
> >I *do* know you.
> >I see what you have done. You were starting to be halfway polite under
> >your other name, so you had to come up with a new one so you could go
> >into "baiter" mode again. Almost tricked me.
> I have learned through hard experience that the nym "Michael Ives" is
> a master baiter.
Yup. Just another phoney.