More on Wiesenthals Amazing Stories - Another response please Herr Holman.
Ben Cramer
The Nazis lined him up with more than three dozen
other Jewish professionals and began to shoot them
one by one through the neck. The executioner, he
said years later to Alan Levy, the late author of
"Nazi Hunter, the Wiesenthal File," took a break now
and then to down a vodka. Suddenly, among the echoing
gunshots, Wiesenthal said, he heard church bells. It
was time for evening Mass. Before getting to
Wiesenthal, the executioner put down his weapon and
went to pray.
On the other hand, Adam Bernstein tells a similar but different story
( http://tinyurl.com/7uhck ) :
Wiesenthal himself was rounded up with other Jews and
nearly killed by Ukrainian soldiers. Each man stood
against a wall and beside a wooden crate that was meant
to hold a corpse. An officer shot a man in the neck,
swigged liquor and shot the next man. As the officer
approached Wiesenthal, church bells sounded. "Enough!"
the officer said. "Evening mass!"
Ron Jacobson
Ben Cramer <nixthisb...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
Did you have a point, old shroomer?
RJ.
Eugene Holman
You are confusing information content and narrative technique.
A1: The Nazis lined him up with more than three dozen other Jewish
professionals and began to shoot them one by one through the neck.
B1: Wiesenthal himself was rounded up with other Jews and nearly killed by
Ukrainian soldiers.
A2: The executioner, he said years later to Alan Levy, the late author of
"Nazi Hunter, the Wiesenthal File," took a break now and then to down a
vodka.
B2: Each man stood against a wall and beside a wooden crate that was meant
to hold a corpse. An officer shot a man in the neck, swigged liquor and
shot the next man.
A3: Suddenly, among the echoing gunshots, Wiesenthal said, he heard church
bells. It was time for evening Mass. Before getting to Wiesenthal, the
executioner put down his weapon and went to pray.
B3: As the officer approached Wiesenthal, church bells sounded. "Enough!"
the officer said. "Evening mass!"
These are two accounts of the same events. Account A focuses provides more
background information and logical sequence. It tries to achieve
objectivity by distancing itself from Wiesenthal and using paraphrase or
indirect quotation rather than directly quoting him. Account B, in turn,
tries to acieve immediacy and drama, focusing on selected, emotive
details. For example, account A gives interesting but not immediately
relevant information concerning the number and social status of the Jews,
and it calls the executioners Nazis, which they were from the functional
standpoint, even if the persons doing the actual shooting were Ukrainian
soldiers, as mentioned in B. Both biographers assume that the reader knows
enough about the history of the Western Ukraine to know that Ukrainian
soldiers worked for the Nazis as concentration camp guards and
executioners:
[A1] The Nazis lined him up with more than three dozen other Jewish
professionals and began to shoot them one by one through the neck.
but this is compensated for by terses, more colorful language and a
stronger sense of drama:
[B1] Wiesenthal himself was rounded up with other Jews and nearly killed
by Ukrainian soldiers.
This narrative strategy continues in the account of the shooting. Account
A is clinical:
[A2] "The executioner, ..., took a break now and then to down a vodka."
Account B is more dramatic. It contains information about the boxes for
the corpses ommitted in account A, and it contrasts the repetition of the
verb "shot", frightening in content but quite ordinary, with "swigged", a
more colorful, here almost outrageous, verb to describe drinking alcohol
than "downed":
[B2]" An officer shot a man in the neck, swigged liquor and shot the next man."
In account A, all the reader senses is approaching doom, but in account B
there is drama and a contrast between routine (...shot....shot...) and
break (swigged liquor) that adds an element of almost farcial humor to the
overall horror of the event.
Account A tends to prevent background information in logical sequence, but
from a distance. It focuses on the details that help us relate the events
to a larger context:
[A] "Suddenly, among the echoing gunshots, Wiesenthal said, he heard
church bells. It was time for evening Mass. Before getting to Wiesenthal,
the executioner put down his weapon and went to pray."
Account B, in turn, is more parsimonious with detail, focusing instead on
the drama of the unexpected change in the course of events as it would
have been experienced by a person thinking he was about to be shot:
[B] "As the officer approached Wiesenthal, church bells sounded. "Enough!"
the officer said. "Evening mass!"
You have confused different ways of telling a story with different
stories. You would not expect Pablo Picasso and Salvador Dali to paint the
same nude in the same way. Both of their paintings would be reflections of
their impressions of the nude, different impressions of what was importan
and what was not. Neither should you expect to biographers of Simon
Wiesenthal to agree on every detail: vodka is liquor, the Ukrainians
worked for the Nazis, and being reminded of evening mass by the ringing of
churchbells is sufficient to make many people drop whatever they are doing
and go off to pray.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Joe Bruno
Ron Jacobson wrote:
> In article <Y_WdnXYLEotsZwXY...@giganews.com>,
> Ben Cramer <nixthisb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Did you have a point, old shroomer?
>
> RJ.
Yes, but he only puts it in kangaroos.
ataturkey
the Nazis and made up extra horrific stories to cover up their shame.
If you try to extrapolate from these stories and claim that there was
no Jewish Genocide then you are off the mark.
Which one is it?
Have a nice vegetarian day!
Ben Cramer
"ataturkey" <atat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167665491....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> You may have a point if you are saying that some Jews collaborated with
> the Nazis and made up extra horrific stories to cover up their shame.
> If you try to extrapolate from these stories and claim that there was
> no Jewish Genocide then you are off the mark.
>
> Which one is it?
I don't for a second believe there were anything like 6m yids offed by the
Germans. The documents I've had access to quite recently don't support the
6m figure either. Nowhere near that figure.
ataturkey
> "ataturkey" <atat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1167665491....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > You may have a point if you are saying that some Jews collaborated with
> > the Nazis and made up extra horrific stories to cover up their shame.
> > If you try to extrapolate from these stories and claim that there was
> > no Jewish Genocide then you are off the mark.
> >
> > Which one is it?
>
> I don't for a second believe there were anything like 6m yids offed by the
> Germans. The documents I've had access to quite recently don't support the
> 6m figure either. Nowhere near that figure.
I just do not know what if there is anything I can believe about the
details. I no more believe McVay's paid propaganda than those who would
paint the Nazi concentration camps as if they were something nice. The
Nazis did murder a lot of Jews and the majority of those were women and
children. There is no defense for that. There is no defense for using
something that happened 60+ years ago to continue to incite hatred
against Germans and others who were not even alive back than. Using
events that may or may not happened 60+ years ago to justify the brutal
treatment of Palestinians is another thing I am opposed to but that is
what the Zionazis do. As you can see, there is no simple answer unless
one is a fanatic for one or the other side.
Curly C
Nazi hunting escapades. He is a legend in his own mind.
Ron Jacobson
"Ben Cramer" admits that he's a troll:
"I'm not here to rebut anything or anyone, cuntface. I'm here
to antagonise and keep you occupied." -- "Ben Cramer",
Message-ID: <dv0e2v$l5a$1...@otis.netspace.net.au>.
RJ.