"Backwoods Hick" Downs Apache Heli W/ Hunting Rifle!
Jan Conrad
both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
control...
Jan Conrad
http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=4211
Apache Helicopter Shot Down With Old Bolt Action Rifle
"Iraqi TV said that an elderly peasant named Ali Ubayd Minkash shot
down the helicopter with an old Czech made Brno bolt-action rifle."
3/25/03 3:05:26 PM
Discuss this story in the forum
Al-Jazeera
Karbala, Iraq --
[LSN: Continuing to be the funniest story so far this war. Note that
we consulted an aerospace engineer on this, and they confirmed that
while it was "improbable" that small arms fire would bring down an
Apache helicopter, that problems with the "patchy" composite armor on
the fuselage may create points of vulnerability that a bullet could
penetrate and destroy something necessary to keep the helicopter in
flight.
As to this old rifle, all we want to know is "where can we get one of
those?" ;-P ]
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/03/al_Jazeera_240303.html
Report: 10 Americans killed in an-Nasiriyya. New air raids as Iraq
downs two US Apache helicopters.
IRAQI television today showed pictures of an American Apache military
helicopter shot down south of the capital, Baghdad. The black aircraft
could be seen still loaded with guided missiles bearing American
markings.
Iraqi television reported that the chopper was brought down near the
city of Karbala, 110km south west of the capital, Baghdad. Two helmets
could be seen in the television pictures but there were no other
indications of the fate of the two pilots of the craft. Typically the
crew of an Apache helicopter consists of two pilots.
Iraqi TV said that an elderly peasant named Ali Ubayd Minkash shot
down the helicopter with an old Czech made Brno bolt-action rifle.
Pictures showed the peasant standing next to the helicopter with the
old weapon. Minkash told the television reporter that he and his
brothers had been expecting an attack when the helicopter circled over
their heads, so he fired at it and brought it down.
Meanwhile in Baghdad, Iraqi Minister of Information Muhammad Sa`id as-
Sahhaf announced that Iraqi forces had downed two American Apaches.
As-Sahhaf told a press conference in the Iraqi capital that one of the
two aircraft had indeed been shown on Iraqi television.
In Washington, an American military official today acknowledged the
downing of an Apache in Iraq, but made no comment on Baghdad's claim
to have shot down a second craft as well. The American official had no
information as to the fate of the two helicopter pilots who would have
been aboard the Apache shown on Iraqi TV.
Promise of Victory
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein promised victory to the Iraqi people
over the aggressor forces. In a speech to the people of Iraq broadcast
on Iraqi television, he commended the performance of the Iraqi forces,
and their resistance to the American and British armies.
Saddam Hussein called on his forces to make use of the opportunity
afforded by this first-time entry of these forces into Iraq to inflict
the greatest losses upon them. They had "avoided clashes previously,
relying instead on their planes and missiles." The Iraqi president
praised the heroic resistance being put up by the Iraqi military and
the people in Umm Qasr, al-Faw, and an- Nasiriyya in southern Iraq,
and he called on Iraqis to have patient perseverence and endurance.
Saddam Hussein said in this, his second address since the beginning of
the American invasion of Iraq, "We have done all we can to end the
crisis. We answered their illegal demands because it is Iraqi policy
to avoid evil. But we have no alternative but to put an end to it if
it comes to our land."
Air raids continue
Meanwhile, air raids on Iraqi cities continue. Massive explosions
shook the Iraqi capital Baghdad, the city of al-Mawsil in the north,
and a number of other urban centers.
Baghdad was subjected to the most violent bombing in two days. Fires
burned in various districts of the city. At least six violent
explosions shook the center of Baghdad. Neither air raid sirens nor
anti-aircraft fire could be heard.
Ambulances could be heard racing through the streets. The blasts came
shortly after the Iraqi President gave his speech in which he called
for resistance, promising his people that victory was near.
This morning air raid sirens sounded twice in Baghdad where columns of
smoke still rise from the places struck last night. The attacks once
again hit one of the presidential palaces that had been struck in the
previous bombing.
In al-Basra, the second major Iraqi city, al-Jazeera's correspondent
has reported that the southern city is now under bombardment. The
bombing is focused on the western part of the city, in particular near
the bridge that yesterday saw violent battles between Iraqi and
Anglo-American invader forces.
The city of al-Mawsil in northern Iraq has once again come under
bombardment this morning. The thunder of explosions could be heard in
a number of areas of the city. Al-Jazeera's correspondent said that
missiles seemed to be striking west of the city of al-Mawsil, and it
could not be ascertained whether the targets being hit were civilian
or military. Three air raids targeted the city in the first hours of
the morning. Two of the raids were met with Iraqi anti-aircraft fire.
Information Minister Muhammad Sa`id as-Sahhaf said that in the
northern city of Kirkuk, Iraqi forces had routed American forces that
had landed near the city, compelling them to retreat.
American and British fighter aircraft today bombed Iraqi forward
positions near the city of Tshamtshamal in the area controlled by the
Kurds in the north of Iraq. This was the first attack in this area
since the start of the American invasion of Iraq last Thursday.
The thunder of powerful explosions could be heard along a mountain
range controlled by the Iraqi army, located 1,500 meters from
Tshamtshamal, a city under the control of the Patriotic Union of
Kurdisan (PUK) an ally of Washington. This is the first time that
bombing has targeted this region since the start of the war.
Tshamtshamal is located 40km east of the oil-rich city of Kirkuk.
Iraqi forces also foiled similar attempted landings in the cities of
an- Najaf and Karbala in the south of Iraq. Iraqi anti-aircraft in the
city of Kirkuk opened fire on planes of the coalition near the area
controlled by the Kurds in the north of the country. The anti-aircraft
barrage continued for ten minutes, stopped, and then resumed again for
15 minutes.
Meanwhile the city of Karbala witnessed battles between American
military helicopters and units of the Iraqi Republican Guard at the
city.
Source: al-Jazeera and agencies.
User
On 25 Mar 2003 12:46:03 -0800, janlc...@yahoo.com (Jan Conrad)
wrote:
Robert Frenchu
>Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
>both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
>control...
>Jan Conrad
>
>http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=4211
>Apache Helicopter Shot Down With Old Bolt Action Rifle
>"Iraqi TV said that an elderly peasant named Ali Ubayd Minkash shot
>down the helicopter with an old Czech made Brno bolt-action rifle."
Oh, well, hell ,we all know if it's on TV it must be true, but if it's
on IRAQI Tv then it must be... what... doubly true? Triply true?
UCC StrawMan
I like my new 50 cal. bolt.
--
The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's
profitable to continue the illusion.
AH#49
Damned straight true!
Susan Cohen
"Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:d14223a12dbc7fa3...@news.teranews.com...
> > janlc...@yahoo.com (Jan Conrad) wrote
<a1ecdd5b.0303...@posting.google.com> in talk.politics.guns. :
>
> >Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> >both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> >control...
Would that be the wonderful folks at JPFO?
> >Jan Conrad
> >
> >http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=4211
> >Apache Helicopter Shot Down With Old Bolt Action Rifle
> >"Iraqi TV said that an elderly peasant named Ali Ubayd Minkash shot
> >down the helicopter with an old Czech made Brno bolt-action rifle."
>
> Oh, well, hell ,we all know if it's on TV it must be true, but if it's
> on IRAQI Tv then it must be... what... doubly true? Triply true?
Don't forget "& it's the fault of the JOOOOOZ."
Susan
M. Eglestone
> Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> control...
Jan, you're nuts, little dude!
--
- SMS Mike - U.S. Air Force, retired
===============
In Shakespeare's time, mattresses were secured on bed frames by
ropes.
When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened, making the
bed firmer to sleep on. Hence the phrase, "goodnight, sleep
tight."
Tom S.
"Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:d14223a12dbc7fa3...@news.teranews.com...
Indubbittiably true!!
David E. Young
"Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:d14223a12dbc7fa3...@news.teranews.com...
DY: The Mother of All Truths.
--
David E. Young deyo...@chartermi.net
Editor - The Origin of the Second Amendment:
Cited over 100 times in the Emerson Decision
http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10331-cr0.htm
Info: http://www.secondamendmentinfo.com
James Beck
says...
> > Jan Conrad:
> > Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> > both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> > control...
> ---
>
> Jan, you're nuts, little dude!
>
You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps.......
;)
Jim
Bill Smith
Mighty fine shootin' it were too! Jes' like the time I got that there
woodchuck at four hunert yards with my trusty ol' 30-30.
Bill Smith
Yardpilot
"AH#49" <"AssholeT#49"@your.com> wrote in message
news:3E80CE6C...@your.com...
You fuckin' A John come a shoutin' true, no doubt.
Charles Don Hall
@corp.supernews.com:
> "Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
> news:d14223a12dbc7fa3...@news.teranews.com...
>> Oh, well, hell ,we all know if it's on TV it must be true, but if it's
>> on IRAQI Tv then it must be... what... doubly true? Triply true?
>
> DY: The Mother of All Truths.
Well, as far as I can tell:
* Overthrow.com got it from David Irving's website (fpp.co.uk)
* David Irving got it from al-Jazeera
* al-Jazeera got it from Iraqi TV
What an impressive list of sources! Things just don't get any truer than
that!
--
======================================
Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher
======================================
AH#49
Double dag nabbed dog darn on a mule true as said by Festus?
matt d
Jeffrey Turner
> Apaches can take a .50 bmg round almost anywhere, even one of the engines.
Right, he must have posed with a cardboard cutout,
I hear they're very popular in Iraq.
--Jeff
Joseph Hertzlinger
wrote:
> Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> control...
From http://www.instapundit.com/archives/008419.php
| LISTENING TO NPR on the way home, it occurred to me that when the
| big war story is that one, count 'em, one helicopter was shot down,
| the war can't be going that badly, despite the efforts of some to
| spin it that way.
There can't be many fighting farmers. (Most of them don't have
ammunition. See http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3718)
--
.sig removed for quotes.
MrTurnipHead
>>Jan Conrad:
>>Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
>>both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
>>control...
>
> ---
>
> Jan, you're nuts, little dude!
I've kicked your ass before HegkleStone. Why do
you come here looking for support from your fellow
gunnies seeking refuge from the fate of disarmament
that awaits you sent by MrTurnip from GovOPs?
MrTurnipHead
master gardener
chief fertilizer spreader
MrTurnipHead
>>Jan Conrad:
>>Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
>>both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
>>control...
>
> ---
>
> Jan, you're nuts, little dude!
Wait and see little pee, it's a pink moon
Hope this helps!
MrTurnipHead
Strider
by Fintan Dunne, Editor
http://www.GuluFuture.com
Thorn in the side of the American administration, and former UN weapons
inspector Scott Ritter, has warned that America will lose the Iraq war and
the American military: "will leave Iraq with its tail between its legs."
In an interview with Irish radio, Mr. Ritter said that the conflict would
become an "absolute quagmire," and the US-UK advance would stall outside
Bhagdad and fail to capture the city.
"We find ourselves... facing a nation of 23 million, with armed elements
numbering around 7 million --who are concentrated at urban areas. We will
not win this fight. America will loose this war," said Mr. Ritter.
According to Mr. Ritter, too many in the Pentagon have listened to: "the
blithering of Iraqi expatriates," whose agenda coincides with
neo-conservatives in the White House.
"We're in Iraq --carrying out the right-wing neo-conservative motives of a
handful of people. The Richard Perle's, Paul Wolfowitz's; the Dick Cheney's.
And we've allowed them to hijack our foreign policy," he told Irish
broadcaster, Vincent Browne on the RTE1 radio "Tonight Show."
He warned that Shia Muslims in the South were not fighting because of
intimidation by the Iraqi government, but because of nationalistic and
religious reasons.
"They're doing it because, the American Crusader Infidel has invaded and
violated Holy Iraq, and they will resist us, and they will resist us
strongly," said Mr. Ritter. "We are not liberating Iraq, we are destroying
Iraq," he added later in the interview.
Scott Ritter, is a former U.N. weapons inspector and author of the book
"Endgame." Ritter, a ballistic missile technology expert, worked in military
intelligence during his 12-year career in the U.S. armed forces. In 1998,
Ritter resigned from the U.N. Special Commissions team to protest Clinton
Administration policies that he said subverted the weapons inspection
process.
Strider
"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:3E8101A2...@localnet.com...
MrTurnipHead
>>Jan Conrad:
>>Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
>>both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
>>control...
>
> ---
>
> Jan, you're nuts, little dude!
I'll take you back to forward.
And so I've helped...
knight57
Your sources are a joke. The Apaches are armor plated on the underside
to protect them against small arms fire. The helo was brought down by
Anti-aircraft fire.Many of the other helos involved in the assault
sustained AAA damage, too, you idiot.
Bruno
Columbotrek
shot at a flying airplane a mile away and takes out an engine. A far
more likely story is the chopper had a mechanical and set it down. Will
have to reserve that one until we talk to the pilot who last we saw was
a health POW. That is of course unless the Iraqi regime does not kill
them for propaganda content.
Jan Conrad wrote:
> Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> control...
> Jan Conrad
--
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which
debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -- G. GORDON LIDDY
Seneca
"M. Eglestone" <sms...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3E80D65E...@bellsouth.net...
[ . . . ]
> In Shakespeare's time, mattresses were secured on bed frames by
> ropes.
Well, SUPPORTED, not secured, and not just in Shakespeare's time. Bedsprings
weren't invented until the 19th century, and before that one of the common
methods of supporting mattresses (which themselves were often quite crude)
was interlaced ropes across the bedframe. In rural areas such beds were in
use well into the 20th century. I remember sleeping on one in my youth in an
old farmhouse in Maine.
>
> When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened, making the
> bed firmer to sleep on. Hence the phrase, "goodnight, sleep
> tight."
No, though that fable has been around for a long time and apparently still
enjoys some currency. The ropes may have needed to be tightened from time to
time because of stretching, but this would be a laborious process and rarely
done--no one "pulled on the ropes [to make] the bed firmer" in the way that
seems to imply.
The word "tight" has many meanings, including (when used as an adverb)
"soundly." That's all "sleep tight" means: "sleep soundly."
So there's another useful bit of revisionism for you.
Seneca
Seneca
"knight57" <tar...@indystart.com> wrote in message
news:abf0ff5d.0303...@posting.google.com...
Maybe the old peasant wasn't considerate enough to fire at the underside
where the armor is, eh? Helos fly low and slow, making frontal or side shots
more likely I should think. There's a lot of glass covering that AH-64
cockpit, too.
If his old BRNO bolt-action was chambered for something like, say, the
7.92x57 (as probably most of them were) and using service FMJ ammo (again,
most probable), I would not want him shooting at me inside any helo you
could get off the ground, with the possible exception of an Mi-24 Hind.
> The helo was brought down by
> Anti-aircraft fire.Many of the other helos involved in the assault
> sustained AAA damage, too, you idiot.
Maybe so, but low-flying military aircraft HAVE been damaged and/or brought
down by small arms fire as I recall.
Seneca
knight57
It's high-impact resistant plastic, not glass, you idiot.A bullet
hitting at an oblique angle will glance off. Police firing their
revolvers in a large city have seen their rounds bounce off auto
windshields.
Helos don't fly that low and Apaches can fly in excess of 100
miles/hour, liar.
>
> If his old BRNO bolt-action was chambered for something like, say, the
> 7.92x57 (as probably most of them were)
Where did you get this information?
A round hitting the cockpit would not damage the engine and not bring
down the helo, idiot. The engine is armor protected, you lying piece
of shit.Even if you kill the pilot, the copilot will keep flying.
and using service FMJ ammo (again,
> most probable), I would not want him shooting at me inside any helo you
> could get off the ground, with the possible exception of an Mi-24 Hind.
Oh, I see. You say the Soviets had technology during the 1980s that we
don't have now? You're an idiot.
The Army would not be stupid enough to let a degenerate like you fly
one of their helos, so that is a moot point. The Navy(my service)
wouldn't trust you to swab decks.
>
>
> > The helo was brought down by
> > Anti-aircraft fire.Many of the other helos involved in the assault
> > sustained AAA damage, too, you idiot.
>
> Maybe so, but low-flying military aircraft HAVE been damaged and/or brought
> down by small arms fire as I recall.
In what war?
The term "small arms fire" includes automatic weapons, you fool.It
includes the AK47,the M16, and the UZI.
>
> Seneca
knight57
> Now we know yet another GOOD reason our Jewish would-be masters are
> both contemptuous of country folk AND strongly supportive of gun
> control...
> Jan Conrad
(1)This Jew is a dedicated NRA member.
(2)Take a gander at this, dumbo:
Bruno
Yardpilot
Well break my leg and call me shorty, I think you got it. <G>
Yardpilot
"MrTurnipHead" <Mrturn...@veggienetcomnet.com> wrote in message
news:3P7ga.879$Xw7.57...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
I shredded five pounds of your relatives in with 55 pounds of cabbage mixed
with salt and pounded the dickens out of it all in a 12 gallon crock. In
just a few short weeks I was able to show that you have a certain amount of
good taste.
> master gardener
> chief fertilizer spreader
True, and a useful skill it is.
Seneca
Oh, whoop de doo. You ever meet a helo pilot who CALLED it "high-impact
resistant plastic" in ordinary conversation? It's usually referred to as
"glass," you fathead.
> A bullet
> hitting at an oblique angle will glance off. Police firing their
> revolvers in a large city have seen their rounds bounce off auto
> windshields.
Bullets fired at WATER "at an oblique angle" will bounce off, stupid. So in
your expert opinion that means water is bulletproof?
>
>
> Helos don't fly that low and Apaches can fly in excess of 100
> miles/hour, liar.
> >
> > If his old BRNO bolt-action was chambered for something like, say, the
> > 7.92x57 (as probably most of them were)
>
> Where did you get this information?
BRNO rifles are Czech. The Czechs like the Germans used the 7.92x57 as a
military round and their sporting rifles were commonly chambered for the
same, just as the .30-06 has been the most popular chambering in American
centerfire sporting rifles for most of the last century. The .30-06 (by
whatever name, .30 M2 etc.) was our service rifle cartridge from before
World War I until after the Korean War. It's the usual practice all over the
world for the standard service round to become popular in sporting firearms
(e.g., the .303 British is the most popular CF rifle cartridge in
Australia), except in those countries where civilian ownership of arms or
ammunition in the military caliber is forbidden.
>
> A round hitting the cockpit would not damage the engine and not bring
> down the helo, idiot. The engine is armor protected, you lying piece
> of shit.Even if you kill the pilot, the copilot will keep flying.
If the controls are damaged, NEITHER may keep flying.
>
>
> and using service FMJ ammo (again,
> > most probable), I would not want him shooting at me inside any helo you
> > could get off the ground, with the possible exception of an Mi-24 Hind.
>
> Oh, I see. You say the Soviets had technology during the 1980s that we
> don't have now? You're an idiot.
Is there anywhere, in that miniscule growth at the upper end of your spinal
cord, any conception whatever of what an Mi-24 Hind is like? It's a flying
tank. It has nothing to do with whose technology is or was more advanced,
moron. To compare a Hind with an Apache is like comparing a T-72 to a jeep.
>
> The Army would not be stupid enough to let a degenerate like you fly
> one of their helos, so that is a moot point. The Navy(my service)
> wouldn't trust you to swab decks.
Which was your regular and sole assignment, presumably. What's the MOS for
"deck swabber"?
>
> >
> >
> > > The helo was brought down by
> > > Anti-aircraft fire.Many of the other helos involved in the assault
> > > sustained AAA damage, too, you idiot.
> >
> > Maybe so, but low-flying military aircraft HAVE been damaged and/or
brought
> > down by small arms fire as I recall.
>
> In what war?
Probably all of them. Von Richtofen was almost certainly killed by ground
fire, one bullet from a Vickers being used for AA work by an Australian
unit. Peasants popping away with old rifles were considered a genuine threat
in Vietnam (read Coonts' FLIGHT OF THE INTRUDER).
>
> The term "small arms fire" includes automatic weapons, you fool.It
> includes the AK47,the M16, and the UZI.
What you don't seem capable of grasping, you drooling moron, is that the old
7.92x57 (like the .30-06) is a MUCH more powerful cartridge than ANY of
those. . . . "and the UZI"?! The Uzi uses pistol-caliber ammunition, you
ignorant jerk.
Again, it took only one .303 bullet to bring down von Richtofen. Whether
that one bullet came from a Vickers or a Lee-Enfield made absolutely no
difference to the result, since the ammunition was the same and the
ballistics were the same. (I should explain to you that the Vickers was a
machine gun and the Lee-Enfield was the British service rifle at the time.
There, now you know twice as much about firearms as you did before.)
Seneca
asylum
"matt d" <mat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:L87ga.25156$MP5....@news1.central.cox.net...
> Apaches can take a .50 bmg round almost anywhere, even one of the engines.
In VN there was an old guy who lived at the end of one of the US runways who
had a 22 rifle. He used to fire at aircraft but he was thought to be
harmless and ignored until he took down an F-4.
Trying to find the source and I'll post it as soon as I do, but its a true
story
matt d
"asylum" <s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b5vtrn$780$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
The Apache is armored, the F-4 is not. He used to fire it at aircraft? wtf
Morton Davis
-*MORT*-
knight57
It really isn't smart to armorplate a jet aircraft that can fly at
20,000 feet at the speed of sound, is it? All you do is slow it down.
The helos come in low and much slower, so they need protection from
small arms fire.
The only armored fixed wing aircraft I know of was the Soviet
Sturmovic and that was necessary because it was designed as a tank
killer in the days before guided bombs.
Bruno
Johnny Johnson
Think: "A-10 Warthog" (oka: "Thunderbolt II")
Yardpilot
"Johnny Johnson" <johnj...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E850088...@mindspring.com...
I don't see how anyone could ever forget that flying tank. IMO, it is one of
the top airplanes ever produced. Take an old cropduster, cross it with Von
Richtoffen's Fokker, toss in a healthy helping of barnstormer, stir in a
bunch of bush pilot, and finish off with a couple of coats of squinty eyed
gunfighter, and you are getting close.
knight57
My, my. Aren't you perceptive!!!! You want a medal?
Asylum
and to think that the USAF wanted to retire them a decade or so ago (pre GW
1).
Johnny Johnson
The Republic A-10A "Thunderbolt II" is the _only_ plane designed and
built around its main armamant: the General Electric GAU-8 Avenger 30mm,
7 barrel gattling gun.
"GE: we bring good things to light." (And to the enemy! <g>)
knight57
The Sturmovic acquired a reputation on the Eastern Front in WWII for a
number of reasons:
(1)The Germans nicknamed it "The Black Death".
(2)The Soviets had a number of female pilots flying it. As a matter of
fact, Russian women also drove tanks in WWII. A number of them were
interviewed in the documentary "Red Empire", produced by the A&E
network.
I highly recommend "Red Empire" to anyone who is interested in the
whole history of the USSR.It consists of 7 videotapes. Many of the
motion pictures included in it are fascinating. You can see people
like Lenin, Stalin,Khrushev,
Trotsky, and Felix Derzynski in action, along with the White Guards
and Cossacks they fought during the Civil War of 1917-22.
Bruno
M. Eglestone
> Think: "A-10 Warthog" (oka: "Thunderbolt II")
And the USAF A-7! It was fitted with some fairly decent belly armor, and an
armored pilot seat during the Vietnam war.
--
- SMS Mike -
===============
Sophistry sale. 50% off for first time users!
Repeat offenders subject to termination.
Seneca
To a Stearman, maybe. What in the world does any of that have to do with an
A-10 Warthog?
Seneca
Seneca
news:<I%2ha.2651$4v3....@news1.central.cox.net>...
> > "asylum" <s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:b5vtrn$780$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> > >
> > > "matt d" <mat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:L87ga.25156$MP5....@news1.central.cox.net...
> > > > Apaches can take a .50 bmg round almost anywhere, even one of the
> > engines.
> > >
> > > In VN there was an old guy who lived at the end of one of the US
runways
> > who
> > > had a 22 rifle. He used to fire at aircraft but he was thought to be
> > > harmless and ignored until he took down an F-4.
> > > Trying to find the source and I'll post it as soon as I do, but its a
true
> > > story
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The Apache is armored, the F-4 is not. He used to fire it at aircraft?
wtf
>
> It really isn't smart to armorplate a jet aircraft that can fly at
Armor on military aircraft does not mean "armorplate," genius.
> 20,000 feet at the speed of sound, is it? All you do is slow it down.
> The helos come in low and much slower, so they need protection from
> small arms fire.
>
> The only armored fixed wing aircraft I know of was the Soviet
> Sturmovic and that was necessary because it was designed as a tank
> killer in the days before guided bombs.
All American fighters in WWII (as distinct from, e.g. the Japanese Zero)
were armored and had self-sealing tanks. It's a matter of degree. The
Sturmovik (note correct spelling) was more heavily armored than most, but
still not "armorplated."
Seneca
Seneca
Which with its ammunition supply runs most of the length of the fuselage.
Ever seen the gun outside of the aircraft? Wow. Now that's ordnance. Pilots
say that firing it is something "you never get used to."
Seneca
knight57
What makes you think I believe what you say? Your credibility is lower
than whaleshit.
Bruno
Yardpilot
Good grief, man! All you have to do is warch one work out and you'll
understand that. Anyone who cut their teeth on stories of Frank Luke and the
like will sure as heck understand.
Seneca
Who cares what you believe? You're an ignorant jerk, as you have
demonstrated over and over and demonstrate again now. If you knew anything
about WWII aircraft, you would not even have to be told that all American
fighters were, as I said, armored and had self-sealing tanks.
Seneca
SkyMutt
Seneca, you are a dumbass if you actually believe that the apache
was shot down by a stupid peasent. The Apache is one of the most
survivalble aircraft in the world. It was designed to take hits and
take hits it does you moron. The reason why its so survivable is do to
the fact it has redunent systems. The control system alone on the
apache has 3 systems to back it up if one should fail. This means that
if the peasent got a lucky shot on the apache taking out the control
system it still has 2 backup systems to allow it to keep flying. Many
of the other apaches in that battle substained sever damage and kept
flying. iam not talking about getting hit by two bullets instead of
fucking one iam talking about getting nailed 60 times by AAA and
taking RPG hits. one apache got hit 45 times by small arms fire, lost
a engine, and took a hit by and RPG and still managed to fly home.
knight57
Seneca is an habitual liar. A good example is the Von Richtofen
business. The Red Baron was brought down by an Australian
anti-aircraft battery, one of the first. He is so stupid that he
believes the propaganda coming out of Baghdad. Their "information
minister" declared yesterday that the Americans were surrounded at
Saddam Hussein airport and being destroyed by Iraqi forces-that was
after we had control of the airport and all the Iraqi tanks who came
at us were destroyed-the photos were on CNN. I don't bother to argue
with the idiot anymore because it is useless-if you debunk one of his
lies, he simply comes up with another or repeats the old ones over and
over.
Bruno
knight57
What they call it is not relevant, moron. The issue is resistance to
small arms fire. In that category, impact resistant plastic is
resistant and glass is not.
YOu really are incredibly stupid.
>
>
> > A bullet
> > hitting at an oblique angle will glance off. Police firing their
> > revolvers in a large city have seen their rounds bounce off auto
> > windshields.
>
> Bullets fired at WATER "at an oblique angle" will bounce off, stupid. So in
> your expert opinion that means water is bulletproof?
No, fool. But someone firing a rifle round from the ground at the
cockpit of a flying helo above him can only hit it at an oblique
angle, since he is shooting up. Got it now, stupid?
>
> >
> >
> > Helos don't fly that low and Apaches can fly in excess of 100
> > miles/hour, liar.
No answer from the lying sack of shit called Seneca.
> > >
> > > If his old BRNO bolt-action was chambered for something like, say, the
> > > 7.92x57 (as probably most of them were)
> >
> > Where did you get this information?
>
> BRNO rifles are Czech. The Czechs like the Germans used the 7.92x57 as a
> military round and their sporting rifles were commonly chambered for the
> same, just as the .30-06 has been the most popular chambering in American
> centerfire sporting rifles for most of the last century.
WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen. Most of them
use the 30-30, the 270 Winchester or the .308. You are lying again.
Also, I asked you where you got this info and you didn't give me a
credible source, just more of your usual lies. I worked for a firearms
manufacturer for 5 years.(Weaver Arms)
The .30-06 (by
> whatever name, .30 M2 etc.) was our service rifle cartridge from before
> World War I until after the Korean War.
How about the M-1 carbine? Lots of those were used in WWII. How about
the M-14, which used .308, liar?
> >
> >> >
> > and using service FMJ ammo (again,
> > > most probable), I would not want him shooting at me inside any helo you
> > > could get off the ground, with the possible exception of an Mi-24 Hind.
> >
> > Oh, I see. You say the Soviets had technology during the 1980s that we
> > don't have now? You're an idiot.
>
> Is there anywhere, in that miniscule growth at the upper end of your spinal
> cord, any conception whatever of what an Mi-24 Hind is like? It's a flying
> tank. It has nothing to do with whose technology is or was more advanced,
> moron. To compare a Hind with an Apache is like comparing a T-72 to a jeep.
Have you flown one? That's a Soviet item. You have no reference to
prove the Hind has more armor than an Apache. Since you are an
habitual liar, I don't believe you.
>
>
> >
> > The Army would not be stupid enough to let a degenerate like you fly
> > one of their helos, so that is a moot point. The Navy(my service)
> > wouldn't trust you to swab decks.
>
> Which was your regular and sole assignment, presumably. What's the MOS for
> "deck swabber"?
Wrong again. I was a Aviation Electrician's Mate and, later, a line
officer who spent 3 years at sea. I was MPA, legal officer and Gunnery
Officer.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The helo was brought down by
> > > > Anti-aircraft fire.Many of the other helos involved in the assault
> > > > sustained AAA damage, too, you idiot.
> > >
> > > Maybe so, but low-flying military aircraft HAVE been damaged and/or
> brought
> > > down by small arms fire as I recall.
> >
> > In what war?
>
> Probably all of them.
What is this "probably" shit? I asked you for facts, not more of your
self-generated bullshit. You're an idiot and you cannot read.
Von Richtofen was almost certainly killed by ground
> fire, one bullet from a Vickers being used for AA work by an Australian
> unit. Peasants popping away with old rifles were considered a genuine threat
> in Vietnam (read Coonts' FLIGHT OF THE INTRUDER).
>
>
> >
> > The term "small arms fire" includes automatic weapons, you fool.It
> > includes the AK47,the M16, and the UZI.
>
> What you don't seem capable of grasping, you drooling moron, is that the old
> 7.92x57 (like the .30-06) is a MUCH more powerful cartridge than ANY of
> those. . . . "and the UZI"?!
Proof? The power of a cartridge depends on many things, not just the
amount of power behind the slug, idiot. Also important are slug
shape(ballistics) and slug weight. Got that, liar?
The Uzi uses pistol-caliber ammunition, you
> ignorant jerk.
You're the ignorant one. There has been special ammo developed for the
UZI which CANNOT be used in a pistol because of the length of the
cartridge. It's called 9MM plus P.
>
> Again, it took only one .303 bullet to bring down von Richtofen. Whether
> that one bullet came from a Vickers or a Lee-Enfield made absolutely no
> difference to the result, since the ammunition was the same and the
> ballistics were the same. (I should explain to you that the Vickers was a
> machine gun and the Lee-Enfield was the British service rifle at the time.
> There, now you know twice as much about firearms as you did before.)
Von richtofen was brought down by anti-aircraft fire, liar. In
addition, you are talking about WWI aircraft, which were alot flimsier
than modern aircraft. Many of them were canvas covered metal
frame.There is no comparison, you stupid piece of shit.
I worked 5 years for a firearms manufacturer, you lying piece of shit.
During that time, I assembled, repaired and tested rifles and pistols
of all types, since we were doing research. You're just a stupid liar.
Bruno
>
> Seneca
knight57
> > one of their helos, so that is a moot point. The Navy(my service)
> > wouldn't trust you to swab decks.
>
> Which was your regular and sole assignment, presumably. What's the MOS for
> "deck swabber"?
The Navy does not have any "MOS"s, ignoramus. Enlisted men have
ratings and officers have designators. Are you ever honest enough to
ask for information instead of assuming you know everything, you
stupid piece of shit?It's no wonder your credibility here is lower
than whaleshit.
Bruno
Yardpilot
> WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and has
for years. Wanna play with that idea? She still shoots sub-MOA with that
beast she carries. Not many people can shoot it, since it is only 11-and-1/2
inches from trigger to butt. I'll grant you that the 30-30 is widespread and
has no doubt accounted for more game on this continent, but don't dis the
30-06.
Tom S.
The .30-30 predominates due to hunting conditions (terrain, distances), not
recoil. Also, the popularity of lever action/tube magazine guns from the
past (read: tradition) have been the primary factors.
knight57
> news:abf0ff5d.0304...@posting.google.com...
>
> > WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
>
> Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and has
> for years. Wanna play with that idea?
You can't read. I said "most sportsmen". The ones I know avoid the
30-06.Your one example proves nothing.
She still shoots sub-MOA with that
> beast she carries. Not many people can shoot it, since it is only 11-and-1/2
> inches from trigger to butt. I'll grant you that the 30-30 is widespread and
> has no doubt accounted for more game on this continent, but don't dis the
> 30-06.
You STILL can't read. I was talking about recoil only. I didn't "dis"
anything.
I have an M-1 Garand, but I rarely fire it because the ammo is so
expensive.
Here in California, factory 30-06 costs more than 50 cents a round.
I suggest you take reading lessons.
Robert Frenchu
>
>"knight57" <tar...@indystart.com> wrote in message
>news:abf0ff5d.0304...@posting.google.com...
>
>> WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
>
>Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and has
>for years. Wanna play with that idea?
Here's another.....
"30-06 - Over 95 years old, it remains America's favorite hunting
cartridge."
http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/30_06_springfield/
This article suggests that "most sportsman" don't think it has "too
much recoil."
Tom S.
"Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:7af85711a24942ae...@news.teranews.com...
> > "Yardpilot" <Yard...@attbi.com> wrote
<M9aka.98106$OV.203483@rwcrnsc54> in talk.politics.guns. :
>
> >
> >"knight57" <tar...@indystart.com> wrote in message
> >news:abf0ff5d.0304...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >> WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
> >
> >Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and
has
> >for years. Wanna play with that idea?
>
> Here's another.....
>
> "30-06 - Over 95 years old, it remains America's favorite hunting
> cartridge."
Not the .30-30? I'd think it would be due to it being the favorite (by far)
to those east of the rockies.
>
> http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/30_06_springfield/
>
> This article suggests that "most sportsman" don't think it has "too
> much recoil."
Now the .300 Winchester Mag...
Yardpilot
> "Yardpilot" <Yard...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:<M9aka.98106$OV.203483@rwcrnsc54>...
> > "knight57" <tar...@indystart.com> wrote in message
> > news:abf0ff5d.0304...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
> >
> > Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and
has
> > for years. Wanna play with that idea?
>
> You can't read. I said "most sportsmen". The ones I know avoid the
> 30-06.Your one example proves nothing.
You don't know many, then. Around here the 30-06 is commonplace. The 30-30
is a bit more common West of the mountains than East, but it is the 30-06
that rules the roost in much of the state. You are using a little reversal
of logic that won't hold up. My example proves your theory wrong, so your
statement is logically null. As far as "one example," you're wrong again. I
listed one, but I can list huindreds just among people I know. The 30-30 is
an old hand, and it has taken a lot of game over the years, but your claim
that "The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen" is bogus.
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/3006s.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/30-06.htm
>
>
> She still shoots sub-MOA with that
> > beast she carries. Not many people can shoot it, since it is only
11-and-1/2
> > inches from trigger to butt. I'll grant you that the 30-30 is widespread
and
> > has no doubt accounted for more game on this continent, but don't dis
the
> > 30-06.
>
> You STILL can't read. I was talking about recoil only. I didn't "dis"
> anything.
Yes you did, and you did the same to shooters and sportsmen by your "too
much recoil" claim. The 30-06 does not have an objectionable level of
recoil. Do try rereading what you said. It seems to be a common problem
among some people that they post things they don't mean or perhaps just lack
clarity of expression.
> I have an M-1 Garand, but I rarely fire it because the ammo is so
> expensive.
> Here in California, factory 30-06 costs more than 50 cents a round.
There's your problem. California. I shoot the Garand, the 1903 Springfield,
and more than one sporting rifle in 30-06. I pay less than half that for
factory ammo (when I buy it), and even less for the better quality stuff I
reload for day to day shooting. The only way I see to pay that much around
here is if you buy it at retail in boxes of 20. Poo on that. Have you ever
heard of gun shows, shopping on the internet, clubs, or friends? Those are
all ways to find prices you can afford. BTW, you can pay over two dollars a
round if you really try. That will make it even more expensive and you'll
have an excuse to shoot even less.
> I suggest you take reading lessons.
I suggest you either learn to post what you actually are trying to say, or
just kiss my ass. AAMOF, do both, ya needledick. No wonder you don't know
shit about anything with a miserable attitude like yours.
Yardpilot
"Robert Frenchu" <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:7af85711a24942ae...@news.teranews.com...
<M9aka.98106$OV.203483@rwcrnsc54> in talk.politics.guns. :
>
> >
> >"knight57" <tar...@indystart.com> wrote in message
> >news:abf0ff5d.0304...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >> WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen.
> >
> >Settle down, fella. My 84 year old 90 pound mother shoots a 30-06, and
has
> >for years. Wanna play with that idea?
>
> Here's another.....
>
> "30-06 - Over 95 years old, it remains America's favorite hunting
> cartridge."
>
> http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/30_06_springfield/
Really. The idea that most "sportsmen" can't handle the recoil of the 30-06
is ludicrous. Unless, of course, "knight57" knows only the most candy-assed
of "sportsmen." Had he said somethin like "the 30-30 is very popular with
some hunters and sportsmen because of its relatively light recoil and
overall economy" then he might have had some sort of point.
Tom S.
>
> You don't know many, then. Around here the 30-06 is commonplace. The 30-30
> is a bit more common West of the mountains than East,
Backwards. Out west of the Mississippi (the Rockies?) you'll find very few
.30-30's, just as in the east you'll find few .30-06's.
knight57
That clown Yardpilot himself admits the 30-30 is used more often-read
his post. I've encountered him and Frenchu before-both of them have no
grasp of relevance and they can't read very well. Frenchu is just
plain stupid.
Bruno
Tom S.
I've encountered him and Frenchu before-both of them have no
> grasp of relevance and they can't read very well. Frenchu is just
> plain stupid.
You're one of the most cement-headed people in here.
Here's a dollar - go buy a clue.
[plonk]
Yardpilot
Lots of reasons. Tradition, cost, looks, knockabout utility, speed of use
(not as important as some seem to think), and so on.
Yardpilot
I was talking about within this one state. Different mountains <G>.
Actually, there are a lot of "thutty-thutties" out here, as well as a number
of other lever actions. There are quite extensive areas of brush country.
OTOH, there is a lot of mountain and desert country where the longer range
guns shine. His recoil claim was bogus. I use a bolt gun for hunting unless
I just plain old feel like doing something different.
Yardpilot
Read it for comprehension, dummy.
> I've encountered him and Frenchu before-both of them have no
> grasp of relevance and they can't read very well. Frenchu is just
> plain stupid.
So, you really ARE an idiot. Thanks for proving it. Your moronic claim that
the 30-06 has too much recoil for your "sportsman" friends has already been
exposed as ignorant nonsense. I was going to give you the benefit of the
doubt, but you choose to be an asshole. So be it.
Tom S.
275 yards respectively. He uses a .270 and I used a .280 Remington.
Yardpilot
I've taken deer at everything from 20 feet to way too far (according to some
folks) with the 30-06. I've taken elk with it at some pretty good ranges,
too. It is a very versatile cartridge. I don't have anything against the
30-30, but I don't have much use for one, either. I have other things that
suit me just fine.
Osugeography
groups with an '06? I know it is easy to do at the computer...
Marvin Sebourn
osugeo...@aol.com
Tom S.
and
> > 275 yards respectively. He uses a .270 and I used a .280 Remington.
>
> I've taken deer at everything from 20 feet to way too far (according to
some
> folks) with the 30-06. I've taken elk with it at some pretty good ranges,
> too. It is a very versatile cartridge. I don't have anything against the
> 30-30, but I don't have much use for one, either. I have other things that
> suit me just fine.
It's hard to beat the 30-30 for brush and thick woods (I cringe when I see a
scope-mounted .30-30), but the flat bullets and other factor rather limit
the effective range to 100 yards or so (IMNSHO). When I lived in Wisconsin,
it was THE cartridge. Other than some .348's or .35 Remington's, if you had
a rifle, it was a thutty-thutty.Where I hunt now (Arizona, Montana,
Colorado) it's much more open (particularly out on the plains for antelope,
where I use a .25-06/87gr) and the mountain forests are _relatively_ sparse.
If all the elk I've seen with a camera or just "stomping" around is any
indicator, 200-250 is common and 300-325yds is quite likely.
Next fall, (Late August, 2004) I', taking my daughter up to Canada (if they
don't blow it) for a Caribou hunt. The guide says expect NO LESS than 250
yards and out to 350. (The key word here is "expect"). Daughter is getting a
7mm-08 and I'm using a .308.
knight57
I certainly couldn't buy it from you-you don't have it.
knight57
Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
you feel tough, asshole?
WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it? At the
NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
1,000 yards.
Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it? Is that your
substitute for dealing with your problems? Guys like you really make
me sick. I hope somebody someday draws a bead on you with an M-1
Garand, just so you know how it feels.
Bruno
Robert Frenchu
>Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
>you feel tough, asshole?
Why can't deer run? Where can you go to shoot deer with no legs?
>WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it? At the
>NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
>1,000 yards.
You really don't know much about hunting, do you, Bruno? It takes a
bit more energy to bring down a deer than it does to go through a
piece of paper. But of course, you've thought about this as carefully
as you do everything else.
>Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
No, it's more like hunting, which people have done since the dawn of
time.
>Is that your substitute for dealing with your problems?
Better than dealing with them in the manner you do, which is
apparently drinking to excess and then posting here.
Have you been able to support your claim that "The 30-06 has too much
recoil for most sportsmen." or are you running away from that now?
knight57
Really? I went to buy a 30-30. I looked in several gun shops. All of
them were out of stock except one place where I was able to buy a used
Marlin lever action. Here in California, the 30-30 lever action is
very common and lots of people, including me, reload the 30-30 brass.
Your generalization is bullshit.
(California is WEST of the Mississippi, you know)People here love the
30-30 lever action because it's so light in weight, the recoil is
negligible and it's short length makes it easy to handle. The ammo is
alot cheaper than the 30-06 stuff, too.(factory 30-06 costs more than
50 cents a round) I've read articles that rave about the 30-30's
popularity all over the country.One of them said "The 30-30 has put
more meat on the American table than any other round".
You guys really like to make yourself look big by slinging the BS,
don't you?
Count me as one who is NOT impressed.
Bruno
knight57
How can the 30-30"predominate" if, as you claim, it isn't used much
"West of the Mississippi"? Out here in California, we have
mountains,forests, plains, marshland and lots of desert-all kinds of
terrain. Are you lying or simply too stupid to realize you are
contradicting yourself?
Bruno
Wrong. Most people like the 30-30 because of it's light weight and
easy handling. You can shoot it anywhere.
Tom S.
> > tar...@indystart.com (knight57) wrote
<abf0ff5d.03040...@posting.google.com> in talk.politics.guns. :
>
>
> >Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
> >you feel tough, asshole?
>
> Why can't deer run? Where can you go to shoot deer with no legs?
>
> >WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it? At the
> >NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
> >1,000 yards.
>
> You really don't know much about hunting, do you, Bruno? It takes a
> bit more energy to bring down a deer than it does to go through a
> piece of paper. But of course, you've thought about this as carefully
> as you do everything else.
First he was bitching that the .30-06 had too much recoil...
It's obvious that he stuck his foot in his mouth and now is trying to cover
his tracks.
Jim
tar...@indystart.com (knight57) wrote in message news:<abf0ff5d.03040...@posting.google.com>...
> Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
> you feel tough, asshole?
Does buying meat in shiney stryrofoam packages make you feel all warm
and fuzzy?
> WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it?
WOW! It takes a lot of courage to hit that little ball with that big
golf club.
> At the NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
> 1,000 yards.
Well, "they" can do that when NOT at NRA matches too.
> Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
What kind of a warped mind equates hitting a paper bullseye with
shooting someone in the back? I suggest you seek a competent mental
health care professional at once. You are indeed a danger to society.
Jim
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
Jim wrote:
[Reader Note! This is limited to AR only! No need to ask the 'why' of that....]
[Loudspeaker......]
"Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard! [pause] Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard.... "!
The above not yet [!] responding, I will attempt to help Joe out.....
Rx DEA#040803
Joe Bruno 21+
Rx : "DIAZEPAM" , 10 mg, tabs, #30
SIG: TT q4H
[X] DAW R X Q.V.
Doc Tony
;-)
Enjoy, Joe! And relax! Call the Rabbi...it may help, Joe!
[suddenly...]
Tom Moran: "Howard, Fine and Howard indeed! Even in 'their' alleged slap-stick humor 'those people' insist on
'controlling the professions'......hrrrrrrrrrrumph!"
Bellinger: 'Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiippppppppppppp'
Moran: "Thank you, Mr. Bellinger! 'Our message' will be heard!"
;-)
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
begins, shall we say, Phase II. NG's therefore left in-tact and a note for folks to, well, be gentle with Joe
until his present crisis passes.
Doc Tony
;-)
knight57
> tar...@indystart.com (knight57) wrote in message news:<abf0ff5d.03040...@posting.google.com>...
> tar...@indystart.com (knight57) wrote in message news:<abf0ff5d.03040...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
> > you feel tough, asshole?
>
> Does buying meat in shiney stryrofoam packages make you feel all warm
> and fuzzy?
Not at all. Can you keep a secret, dumbo? The one thing that would
really make me feel warm and fuzzy would be reading your obituary in
the newspaper. As a matter of fact, I've had a hard day and I need a
lift-why don't you drop dead right now? If you need help, I'd be glad
to assist.
>
> > WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it?
>
> WOW! It takes a lot of courage to hit that little ball with that big
> golf club.
Well, I don't play golf, so that means you're a liar.
>
> > At the NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
> > 1,000 yards.
>
> Well, "they" can do that when NOT at NRA matches too.
You figured that out all by yourself? Good lad! I guess you're not
retarded after all-just an idiot. Now you have learned something about
the effective range of an M-1 Garand. I think we've had enough
instruction for today-I don't want to overtax your primitive brain.
>
> > Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
>
> What kind of a warped mind equates hitting a paper bullseye with
> shooting someone in the back?
No, fool. I was comparing shooting a deer from a hiding place to
shooting a man in the back. The deer doesn't know you are there, so it
doesn't have a chance to run or defend itself. Got it now, dumbass?
Perhaps you need remedial reading.
I suggest you seek a competent mental
> health care professional at once. You are indeed a danger to society.
>
> Jim
Save your breath. I don't take advice from chickenshit punks.
Bruno
knight57
>
>
> >Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
> >you feel tough, asshole?
>
> Why can't deer run? Where can you go to shoot deer with no legs?
Listen, idiot. If you are hiding and covering your scent, the deer
doesn't know you are there so it won't try to run. Got it, retard?
> >WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it? At the
> >NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
> >1,000 yards.
>
> You really don't know much about hunting, do you, Bruno?
don't hunt but I know enough to make me hate it.
It takes a
> bit more energy to bring down a deer than it does to go through a
> piece of paper. But of course, you've thought about this as carefully
> as you do everything else.
Since you have no brain, you're not qualified to describe the thinking
process.
>
> >Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
>
> No, it's more like hunting, which people have done since the dawn of
> time.
wrong. When you hunt with a bow, as my friend does, the deer has a
chance because you have to get close. Sometimes you miss with the bow
and have to track the animal for hours as he does. Even then, lots of
times the deer gets away. That is a contest requiring patience and
skill. What you assholes do is plain cowardly butchery. There are
American Indians who still hunt with a lance. They are skilled
hunters, not chickenshit like you.
> >Is that your substitute for dealing with your problems?
>
> Better than dealing with them in the manner you do, which is
> apparently drinking to excess and then posting here.
That's another of your many LIES. I don't drink. A medication I take
is disabled by alcohol.Want to try again, scumbag?
>
> Have you been able to support your claim that "The 30-06 has too much
> recoil for most sportsmen." or are you running away from that now?
I made no "claim",moron, just an opinion based on my personal
experience. The other guy voiced an opinion on the basis of his
personal experience. Did you fall asleep in the 3rd grade or were you
busy jacking off when they were teaching reading?In order to get a
definitive answer, we'd have to take a nationwide poll. Am I going too
fast for you, moron?
Besides, proving anything to you is a waste of time:
(1)Even if I did, you'd just lie about it tommorrow and say I didn't.
(2)Proving anything to you serves no purpose. You are a useless
quivering piece of protoplasm. Your opinion doesn't matter to me.
Bruno
knight57
I'm glad you're here, Doctor Clown. Now that we have all the
trash(you, Frenchu Jim, Tom S, and Yardinsect) in one place, the
garbagemen won't have to search for it. You're the most considerate
buffoon I've seen in quite a while.
Bruno
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
knight57 wrote:
Nahhhh. Free ride. Rare [and a first actually] but quite necessary. The reason(s) being rather painfully obvious. Take
care of yourself, Joe, and I mean that quite seriously.
Doc Tony
knight57
That's quite an extravagant LIE.I personally STILL think the 30-06 has
too much recoil. That's one reason my M-1 Garand sits in the closet. I
know other people who agree with me. Claiming to read the mind of
someone hundreds of miles away
is pure bullshit. Not even Houdini would try that. You really aren't
very bright or very honest. I happen to be an animal lover who detests
hunting. That is a separate issue, idiot. Can your pea brain grasp
that concept? Do you want me to restate it in smaller words? Were you
busy jacking off when they tried to teach you to read in the 3rd
grade?
Bruno
knight57
Are you asking Yardpilot? He can't even understand what he reads, let
alone compute mathematical probabilities. You might as well ask a
snail to do Calculus.
Bruno
Robert Frenchu
>Robert Frenchu <TheRi...@toughguy.net> wrote in message news:<2ea67ae304a48f25...@news.teranews.com>...
>> > tar...@indystart.com (knight57) wrote <abf0ff5d.03040...@posting.google.com> in talk.politics.guns. :
>>
>>
>> >Does killing an unarmed deer who doesn't see you(and can't run) make
>> >you feel tough, asshole?
>>
>> Why can't deer run? Where can you go to shoot deer with no legs?
>
>Listen, idiot. If you are hiding and covering your scent, the deer
>doesn't know you are there so it won't try to run. Got it, retard?
A little goal post move there, Bruno? First you said they "can't run"
and now you're claiming they don't want to run? Why don't you make up
your mind? Are you saying that the hunters you admire- those with bows
and lances- DON'T cover up their scent, DON'T hide, and they shoot the
deer while they're running away?
Or do you have any idea WHAT you're saying?
>> >WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it? At the
>> >NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
>> >1,000 yards.
>>
>> You really don't know much about hunting, do you, Bruno?
>
>
> don't hunt but I know enough to make me hate it.
Surprisingly typical. You admit you don't have enough knowledge about
the sport yet you already "hate" it, along with the people who
participate in it. Kinda of like the people who "hate guns" and know
nothing about them.
>> >Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
>>
>> No, it's more like hunting, which people have done since the dawn of
>> time.
>
>wrong. When you hunt with a bow, as my friend does, the deer has a
>chance because you have to get close.
[chuckle] Uh Bruno? Are you claiming that the deer don't have a chance
when you use a gun?
> Sometimes you miss with the bow and have to track the animal for hours as he does.
>Even then, lots of times the deer gets away.
Oh that NEVER happens with a rifle! [guffaw]
>That is a contest requiring patience and
>skill.
You'r right, Bruno- you know nothing about hunting. That's why I was
laughing at your stupid-ass remark about 30-06, which I proved wrong.
You know as much about guns as you do hunting, it looks like- ZERO.
>What you assholes do is plain cowardly butchery.
There's definitely butchery involved. Can't leave all that meat on the
animal to rot. You did know you have to butcher the deer after you
kill it, right, Bruno?
>> >Is that your substitute for dealing with your problems?
>>
>> Better than dealing with them in the manner you do, which is
>> apparently drinking to excess and then posting here.
>
>That's another of your many LIES. I don't drink. A medication I take
>is disabled by alcohol.Want to try again, scumbag?
Sure, your "medication." Uh huh. We believe you, Bruno.
>> Have you been able to support your claim that "The 30-06 has too much
>> recoil for most sportsmen." or are you running away from that now?
>
>I made no "claim",moron, just an opinion based on my personal
>experience.
Yes you did. You stated:
"WRONG. The 30-06 has too much recoil for most sportsmen."
Not
"WRONG. It's my opinion that the 30-06 has too much recoil for most
sportsmen."
Of course, if you want to back pedal now and claim that it's just
your unsupportable opinion, that's probably a good move on your part,
since I've proven the statement (or opinion, whichever you want to
call it) to be incorrect.
>Your opinion doesn't matter to me.
Of course it does, Bruno- you hang on every word I say.
yardpilot
Shoot deer, clean kill, bad. Poke stick in deer, let it bleed to death,
good. Trolls "think" like that.
yardpilot
I take it he is a long term therapy patient with a strong masochistic
streak.
Robert Frenchu
>Shoot deer, clean kill, bad. Poke stick in deer, let it bleed to death,
>good. Trolls "think" like that.
I'm sure Bruno's "friend," naked except for a traditional loincloth,
stealthily dispatches the animal with his home-made knife, cuts out
the still-beating heart, and drinks the blood to become "one" with the
grateful creature. He then carves up the meat, using every single
part, leaving nothing to waste. Only a slight depression in the soil
marks the spot.
Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, hummer-mounted .50 machine
guns blast away at deer grazing peacefully three miles away, leaving
them wounded and dying as the chortling hunters leave the area strewn
with liquor containers.
Welcome to Bruno's world, a world of make-believe and fantasy.
Jim
> > Does buying meat in shiney stryrofoam packages make you feel all warm
> > and fuzzy?
> Not at all. Can you keep a secret, dumbo? The one thing that would
> really make me feel warm and fuzzy would be reading your obituary in
> the newspaper. As a matter of fact, I've had a hard day and I need a
> lift-why don't you drop dead right now? If you need help, I'd be glad
> to assist.
Oooooooooooooh. I'm all a shakin, Tarzan - an internet threat from a
jerkoff. I bet you popped a big ol' 4 inch boner typing that.
> > > WOW. It takes alot of courage to pull that trigger, doesn't it?
> > WOW! It takes a lot of courage to hit that little ball with that big
> > golf club.
> Well, I don't play golf, so that means you're a liar.
You really are an idiot - and I thought perhaps you were just
pretending.
> > > At the NRA matches, they can score bullseyes with a 30-06(M-1 Garand) at
> > > 1,000 yards.
> > Well, "they" can do that when NOT at NRA matches too.
> You figured that out all by yourself? Good lad! I guess you're not
> retarded after all-just an idiot. Now you have learned something about
> the effective range of an M-1 Garand. I think we've had enough
> instruction for today-I don't want to overtax your primitive brain.
So says the dumbass who equates shooting paper with shooting someone
in the back.
> > > Kinda like shooting a man in the back, isn't it?
> > What kind of a warped mind equates hitting a paper bullseye with
> > shooting someone in the back?
> No, fool. I was comparing shooting a deer from a hiding place to
> shooting a man in the back.
That explains why your English teacher keeps saying you don't know how
to construct a paragraph. Topic Sentense plus two or more supporting
sentenses.
New topic - new paragraph.
Get someone to read what you wrote to you and you shall see that you
were taling about bullseye shooting then compared it to shooting
someone in the back.
> The deer doesn't know you are there, so it doesn't have a chance to run or
> defend itself.
Yet its okay to eat a cow that had its head bashed in prior to its
meat being packaged in handy-dandy containers.
Jim
Tom S.
More like it all takes placed in a padded room.
Johnny Johnson
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in message
> news:<4%Dga.27213$ja4.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>> The Uzi uses pistol-caliber ammunition, you ignorant jerk.
>
> You're the ignorant one. There has been special ammo developed for the
> UZI which CANNOT be used in a pistol because of the length of the
> cartridge. It's called 9MM plus P.
Incorrect information there, K57.
The 9mm +P (and LEO only 9mm +P+) is a standard 9x19mm size (aka 9mm
Luger, 9mm Parabellum or 9mm NATO).
You are thinking about the 9x21mm IMI:
http://www.imisammo.co.il/ball_hg1.htm
And even _that_ is used in pistols:
Beretta 98FS, Beretta Cougar, R.Gamba SAB G90, EuroArms Luger P-08,
CZ-110, Pardini PC9 and GT9, Jericho 941F, Korth Combat Model, Target
Model and Sport Model (_revolvers_, no less <g>); well, I think you get
the message here. <g>
Scout
"Johnny Johnson" <johnj...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E94C8BA...@mindspring.com...
> knight57 wrote:
>
> > "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in message
> > news:<4%Dga.27213$ja4.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> >> The Uzi uses pistol-caliber ammunition, you ignorant jerk.
> >
> > You're the ignorant one. There has been special ammo developed for the
> > UZI which CANNOT be used in a pistol because of the length of the
> > cartridge. It's called 9MM plus P.
>
> Incorrect information there, K57.
>
> The 9mm +P (and LEO only 9mm +P+) is a standard 9x19mm size (aka 9mm
> Luger, 9mm Parabellum or 9mm NATO).
Excuse me, but I was totally unaware that +P+ was LEO only.
Do you have a source for this, because if so I'm going to have to check with
my ammo supplier.
Johnny Johnson
> "Johnny Johnson" <johnj...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E94C8BA...@mindspring.com...
>
>> knight57 wrote:
>>
>>> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<4%Dga.27213$ja4.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>
>>>> The Uzi uses pistol-caliber ammunition, you ignorant jerk.
>>>
>>> You're the ignorant one. There has been special ammo developed for the
>>> UZI which CANNOT be used in a pistol because of the length of the
>>> cartridge. It's called 9MM plus P.
>>
>> Incorrect information there, K57.
>>
>> The 9mm +P (and LEO only 9mm +P+) is a standard 9x19mm size (aka 9mm
>> Luger, 9mm Parabellum or 9mm NATO).
>
> Excuse me, but I was totally unaware that +P+ was LEO only.
That's the way the boxes are marked:
FEDERAL PREMIUM
9MM
LUGER
(+P+)
124 GR. HYDRA-SHOK® JHP
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY P9HS3G
But as to only LEOs having them; well .... <g> ;->
Tom S.
So, Knight...who's the ignorant one? Hmm?
Seneca
Correct of course. Sorry I missed the ignorant jerk's reply or I'd have
straightened him out myself. (Not that THAT does much good.)
However, I don't really think he's talking about the 9x21 cartridge, since
he seems to think there's some 9mm round which "CANNOT be used in a pistol,"
and as I'm sure you know, the 9x21 was designed EXPRESSLY for use in
pistols--by civilians in those countries where civilian possession of arms
or ammo in the military caliber is prohibited.
There is NO 9mm round that I'm aware of that is designed or intended
strictly for submachine gun use, at least not on the basis of cartridge
dimensions. The Spanish used to use the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard in SMGs, but of
course they used the same cartridge in their service pistols at the time.
The Italians during World War II used a special loading of the 9x19 intended
only for submachine gun use, but this was because they were still using the
9mm Glisenti as a service pistol--which took a cartridge dimensionally
identical to the 9mm Luger but loaded to a substantially lower pressure. The
9mm SMG round would chamber and presumably fire ("presumably" because they
had real hard primers; I bought a case of 'em war surplus in the 1950s and
many would only fire on the second hit, depending on the pistol) in most
pistols of that chambering but would not have been safe in the relatively
weak Glisenti pistol.
Aside to the ignorant jerk: As Johnny points out, the 9mm +P is
dimensionally identical to any standard 9x19 (Luger, etc.) cartridge. The
"+P" simply means that the cartridge is loaded to a higher than standard
pressure--the same as it means in the .38 Special +P for example.
Seneca
Seneca
"Well . . . " is right. :-)
I have a few boxes of Hirtenberger 9mm (Luger) Police ammo. Supposed to be
real hot stuff, though I never got around to chronographing any of it. It's
loaded with a 100-grain truncated conical bullet--shaped like the Luger
bullet of World War I, but with a small soft point.
I'd be surprised if there's any ammo that is REALLY restricted to LE use,
apart from vest-penetrating stuff (which obviously that Hydra-Shok ammo
would not be), though I suppose manufacturers may make some effort to keep
the very hot-loaded stuff out of the hands of civilians who might use it in
arms in poor condition, or in older guns just too weak to handle it even if
in good condition. I should think this would be especially true in the case
of the 9mm Luger cartridge, since so many old pistols are chambered for a
dimensionally identical round but would be unsafe even with the (relatively
mild) standard American commercial loading. The Model 1915 Beretta, for
example, will chamber a modern 9x19 but I sure wouldn't care to pop one off
in it. Or in a Glisenti or Brixia pistol either, for that matter.
Seneca
Seneca
> > > > knight57 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "matt d" <mat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<I%2ha.2651$4v3....@news1.central.cox.net>...
> > > > >
> > > > >> "asylum" <s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > >> news:b5vtrn$780$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> "matt d" <mat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > >>> news:L87ga.25156$MP5....@news1.central.cox.net...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Apaches can take a .50 bmg round almost anywhere, even one of
the
> > > engines.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> In VN there was an old guy who lived at the end of one of the US
> > > runways
> > > > >>> who had a 22 rifle. He used to fire at aircraft but he was
> thought
> > > to be
> > > > >>> harmless and ignored until he took down an F-4.
> > > > >>> Trying to find the source and I'll post it as soon as I do, but
> its
> > a
> > > true
> > > > >>> story
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The Apache is armored, the F-4 is not. He used to fire it at
> > aircraft?
> > > wtf
> > > > >
> > > > > It really isn't smart to armorplate a jet aircraft that can fly at
> > > > > 20,000 feet at the speed of sound, is it? All you do is slow it
> down.
> > > > > The helos come in low and much slower, so they need protection
from
> > > > > small arms fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only armored fixed wing aircraft I know of was the Soviet
> > > > > Sturmovic and that was necessary because it was designed as a tank
> > > > > killer in the days before guided bombs.
> > > >
> > > > Think: "A-10 Warthog" (oka: "Thunderbolt II")
> > >
> > > I don't see how anyone could ever forget that flying tank. IMO, it is
> one
> > of
> > > the top airplanes ever produced. Take an old cropduster, cross it with
> Von
> > > Richtoffen's Fokker, toss in a healthy helping of barnstormer, stir in
a
> > > bunch of bush pilot, and finish off with a couple of coats of squinty
> eyed
> > > gunfighter, and you are getting close.
> >
> > To a Stearman, maybe. What in the world does any of that have to do with
> an
> > A-10 Warthog?
>
>
> Good grief, man! All you have to do is warch one work out and you'll
> understand that. Anyone who cut their teeth on stories of Frank Luke and
the
> like will sure as heck understand.
Well, I've seen A-10s in flight and looked 'em over pretty closely on the
ground, and I'll be the first to agree that it's one mighty impressive piece
of flying ordnance. I'll admit I've never seen one actually "work out."
But I still don't see the connection. I DID cut my teeth on stories of Frank
Luke (and Mick Mannock, Billy Bishop, Eddie Rickenbacker, Rene Fonck,
Georges Guynemer, Roy Brown, Ray Collishaw, James McCudden, etc., etc.,
etc.). That war, and especially the war in the air, has always been a major
area of interest of mine. I have one book by Elliott White Springs that I
think I've read at least five times over the last 60 years.
But all those guys were dogfighters, flying relatively fragile canvas crates
and shooting at each other with rifle-caliber machine guns. The A-10 on the
other hand is a massively armored flying giant chain-gun used for ground
attack. If there's anything about it that brings "Von Richtofen's Fokker
[etc.]" to mind for you, I'd sure like to know what it is. It completely
eludes me.
Seneca
Johnny Johnson
9mm (+P+) 124GR. FEDERAL
P9HS3G
PUBLIC WELCOME
JACKETED HOLLOW POINT
HYDRA-SHOK
5 BOX MINIMUM
MIX OR MATCH
ANYTHING ON THE
WEBSITE FOR THE 5 BOX
MINIMUM
FREE SHIPPING
Part Number #9MM-0300BBX, 03005BBX, 03001BK
$25-Box 50 rounds.
$119-250 Rounds ( 5 Boxes )
$390-1,000 rounds.
http://www.ammoman.com/webstore_9mm.htm
> I have a few boxes of Hirtenberger 9mm (Luger) Police ammo. Supposed to be
> real hot stuff, though I never got around to chronographing any of it. It's
> loaded with a 100-grain truncated conical bullet--shaped like the Luger
> bullet of World War I, but with a small soft point.
Got any to spare? <g>
BTW: have you heard of the Hirtenberger Expansions-Monoblockgeschoss
(EMB) ammunition?
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb0.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb3.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb4.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb5.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb6.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb9.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb10.htm
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb11.htm
Seneca
<chuckle> Nope, only a few boxes.
>
> BTW: have you heard of the Hirtenberger Expansions-Monoblockgeschoss
> (EMB) ammunition?
>
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb0.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb3.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb4.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb5.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb6.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb9.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb10.htm
> http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb11.htm
No, I hadn't. I've been away from that stuff for a while now.
Very interesting, thanks for the links. (Doing the conversions from metric
is a nuisance, though. :-) )
Seneca
Yardpilot
I hope they aren't mad at you when you get the chance <G>.
>
> But I still don't see the connection. I DID cut my teeth on stories of
Frank
> Luke (and Mick Mannock, Billy Bishop, Eddie Rickenbacker, Rene Fonck,
> Georges Guynemer, Roy Brown, Ray Collishaw, James McCudden, etc., etc.,
> etc.). That war, and especially the war in the air, has always been a
major
> area of interest of mine. I have one book by Elliott White Springs that I
> think I've read at least five times over the last 60 years.
>
> But all those guys were dogfighters, flying relatively fragile canvas
crates
> and shooting at each other with rifle-caliber machine guns. The A-10 on
the
> other hand is a massively armored flying giant chain-gun used for ground
> attack. If there's anything about it that brings "Von Richtofen's Fokker
> [etc.]" to mind for you, I'd sure like to know what it is. It completely
> eludes me.
Sorry about that. I guess we just see things differently. The spirit of the
individual flying into combat and laying it all on the line is a straight
line connection, the way I see it. In a world where higher, faster, further
is the rule, the A-10 and pilot get right into the mix. Watch one and the
image of the crop duster and barnstormer come right out as if painted on the
sky. It's like the connection Dave Mann makes between the Harley rider and
the Pony Express guy in Ghostrider.
http://store1.yimg.com/I/hdrt_1734_22695602 The cropduster drops his
airplane sideways over a powerline, down between the silos, and sprays a
field with chemicals. The A-10 pilot does much the same thing while being
fired at and hoses an armored convoy with hot lead, cowboy "shoot'em up at
high noon" style. Have you got the drift yet that I am not just comparing
planes here?