One World
fasgnadh
Yap
> One World
>
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
It sucks.
Look at the video.....one world and then two worlds with one for
religion.
And it stated color people were of black and white....while the
reality of this world with yellow as majority didn't count.
Well, may be it's right that the East is mostly either atheists or
Buddhists(which is a philosophical religion without god.).
You are staying in a cocoon, knowing nothing outside US?
Richo
> One World
>
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually
kill or convert them all.
2) They still suffer the fault of being a monotheism - some very
strong moral people seem able to resist its corrupting influence and
remain good people - but for humanity in general in the end its
poisonous to morality, antithetical to wisdom and an excuse for being
mean and callous to "the others".
"God" is just a very bad idea - and is not a uniting one but a
divisive force.
Mark.
Christopher A. Lee
We've had Bahai loonies here before. Every bit as nasty as Christian
and Muslim ones after we don't want to hear their message that their
loony leader is everybody's.
>Mark.
fasgnadh
> On Nov 22, 5:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> One World
>>
>> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>
> It sucks.
Feel free to leave it just as soon as your booster
with 20,000 lb of rocket fuel is ready. B^D
> Look at the video.....
Well at least this time you managed to intuit the basic purpose! B^)
Now, if you could just do that in life! B^D
> one world and then two worlds
Do you think it could be magic trick?
> with one for religion.
> And it stated color people were of black and white....while the
> reality of this world with yellow as majority didn't count.
I'm sure they can count, they had the largest economy on the
planet for 18 of the past 20 centuries, and it looks like they
will regain that status soon.
> Well, may be it's right that the East is mostly either atheists or
> Buddhists(which is a philosophical religion without god.).
really? What's a Deva?
@ "Buddhism speaks of ultimate reality as pure, spotless,
@ changeless Mind that is present in all things, all times,
@ and in all beings and which can never die. Kalu Rinpoche
@ elucidates: "...pure mind cannot be located, but it is
@ omnipresent and all-penetrating; it embraces and pervades
@ all things. Moreover, it is beyond change, and its open
@ nature is indestructible and atemporal."[3
Now Who does that sound like? B^D
But wait there is more..
@ "The text refers to Vairocana Buddha as the "Bhagavat" ("Blessed One,"
@ a term traditionally linked in Indian discourse with "the Divine"],
@ "Master of the Dharma, the Sage who is completely perfect, who is
@ all-pervasive, who encompasses all world systems, who is All-Knowing,
@ the Lord Vairocana".[13]
@
@ The Tantric text, The Sarva-Tathagata-Tattva-Samgraha,
@ characterizes Vairocana as follows:
@
@ He is universal Goodness, beneficial, destroyer [of suffering],
@ the great Lord of Happiness, sky womb, Great Luminosity
@ … the great All-perceiving Lord … He is without beginning or
@ end … [He is] Vishnu [God] … Protector of the world, the sky,
@ the earth … The elements, the good benefactor of beings,
@ All things … the Blessed Rest, Eternal … The Self of all
@ the Buddhas … Pre-eminent over all, and master of the world.
@
@ Similar God-like descriptions are encountered in the All-Creating King
@ Tantra (Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra), where the universal Mind of
@ Awakening (in its mode as "Samantabhadra Buddha") declares of
@ itself:[14]
@
@ I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that
@ exists. I am the cause of all that exists. I am the trunk
@ of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists.
@ I am the root of existence. I am ‘the core’ because I contain
@ all phenomena. I am ‘the seed’ because I give birth to everything.
@ I am ‘the cause’ because all comes from me. I am ‘the trunk’
@ because the ramifications of every event sprout from me.
@ I am ‘the foundation’ because all abides in me. I am called
@ ‘the root’ because I am everything."
@
Some of you Buddhist Atheists are really interesting! B^)
@ Deva (Buddhism)
@ A deva (??? Sanskrit and Pali) in Buddhism is one of many
@ different types of non-human beings who share the
@ characteristics of being more powerful, longer-lived,
@ and, in general, living more contentedly than the
@ average human being.
@
@ Synonyms in other languages include Tibetan lha,
@ Chinese tian (?), Korean cheon, Japanese ten,
@ Vietnamese thiên. The concept of devas was adopted
@ in Japan partly because of the similarity with the
@ Shinto's concept of kami.
@
@ Other words used in Buddhist texts to refer to
@ similar supernatural beings are devata "deity" and
@ devaputra (Pali: devaputta) "son of the gods".
@
@
@ Powers of the devas
@
@ From a human perspective, devas share the characteristic
@ of being invisible to the physical human eye. The presence
@ of a deva can be detected by those humans who have opened
@ the divyacak?us (Pali: dibbacakkhu), an extrasensory power
@ by which one can see beings from other planes. Their
@ voices can also be heard by those who have cultivated
@ a similar power of the ear.
@
@ Most devas are also capable of constructing illusory
@ forms by which they can manifest themselves to the
@ beings of lower worlds; higher and lower devas even
@ have to do this between each other.
@
@ Devas do not require the same kind of sustenance as
@ humans do, although the lower kinds do eat and drink.
@ The higher sorts of deva shine with their own intrinsic
@ luminosity.
@
@ Devas are also capable of moving great distances speedily
@ and of flying through the air, although the lower devas
@ sometimes accomplish this through magical aids such as a
@ flying chariot."
Do Atheists borrow these Magic Chariots on the weekends???
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAA
@ " Types of deva
@
@ The devas of the Arupyadhatu have no physical form or location,
@ and they dwell in meditation on formless subjects.
Sounds like some Nappisan and Abu'Baker discussing
probability! B^)
@ "They do not interact with the rest of the universe."
That is definitely some of the atheists in alt.atheistan!!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!
> You are staying in a cocoon, knowing nothing outside US?
I don't live in the US.
Congratulations, you managed to make a whole post with not
a single correct thing in it... amongst the adults in
Usenet this is unusual, but not out of line with the norm
in alt.atheism
B J Foster
"Islamic finance leads the way" eh?
(rotfl)
fasgnadh
Are you Flakey Friedmanites still smarting over
the failure of your Fanatical Free market Fantasies? B^D
Run along and play with your sub-prime derivatives,
the adults and I are discussing the next stage in
the evolution of the New World Economic Order. B^)
I hear that the USSA is now looking to the only
large cash sources, the mammoth sovereign funds
of China and the Middle East, to bail out the still
plummeting World Markets,
Deficit, Debt, Chaos and Panic, and only the Islamic
world and China can possibly provide the global stimulus
necessary to lessen the impact of the Global Depression.
As the Market pundits themselves say, BJ, your Invisible
Hand of the Market is a cruel and capricious God, Moloch,
- the First International Bank of the Golden Calf, and
it's nothing but Greed followed by Fear.
All the 'economists' (the only profession that gets paid for
serially being wrong) now bleat endlessly about 'Confidence'
and 'hope' in the market finally turning..
Faith Hope and Confidence.. sounds like a Spiritual Solution
is required for the Economic Problem, eh? B^D
BTW have you discovered that Capitalism existed before 1964, yet? B^D
# Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:28:16 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com>
# Subject: Desperate Friedmanite Fool claims Capitalism was *defined*
# in 1964!!!! ..by Ayn Rand!
# BWAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHAAAA! Re: ""CAPITALISM APPEARS TO BE DEAD
# IN THE US" - B.J. Foster assesses the scope of the Calamity 8^o
# Re: Wall Street's Dead Cat Bounce on news of re-regulation
# and more Market Socialism!
# Re: AIG Bail out fails to Calm Wall Street - another 4% fall
# - Bush stops pretending 'fundamentals are fine"
# WasRe: Your Super crumbling because of the global crisis
# caused by corrupt merchant bankers Howard and Bush's watch
# Message-ID: <48f198fe$0$31802$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# B J Foster wrote:
# >
# > This is from the person who basically defined capitalism:
# >
# > "When I say 'capitalism', I mean a full, pure,
# > uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a
# > separation of state and economics, in the same way and for
# > the same reasons as the separation of state and
# > church" (Ayn Rand, 1964)
#
#
# 'Capitalism' was *defined* in 1964??????????
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!
#
# ..... by Ayn Rand!!???
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!
#
# And here's the rest of us thinking it must have been around at
# least as early as Marx's critique!!!!!
#
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAA!
#
# And when you read that drivel it makes it clear that
# as Randism (Bj's denomination of Capitalist beliefs) defines
# it as "separation of state and economics" and there is
# no place on the planet where government and
# economy are not inextricably linked.. then I am right..
# there are many mixed economies, and BJ's 'Capitalism'
#
# ....EXISTS NOWHERE IN THE REAL WORLD! B^D
But while you were quoting Ayn Rand as the Creator
of Modern Capitalism [snicker} I had already told you
about the Spiritual Solution to the economic problem,
many times before:
#########
# Subject: Overcoming Greed and Fear
#
# Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:09:19 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com>
# User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
# Newsgroups: aus.politics,aus.invest,alt.politics.republicans,
# alt.politics.democrats,soc.culture.australian,uk.politics.misc
# Message-ID: <48f8aa93$0$31806$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# Overcoming Greed and FEAR
#
# It's not a WAR on Greed as some hysterical Chicken Littles
# would have you believe.. we have had enough of "WAR"s on
# things... it's a global co-operative shift in values and attitudes.
#
# Economic rationalism, as it is known in Australia, or neo-Liberal
# economics in the USSA, is finished.
#
# Exuberant Greed followed by Exuberant Fear has killed it.
#
#
# "The presidential election is just three weeks away
# and for Barack Obama and John McCain the challenge
# is obvious: explain to voters why the United States
# seems to be leading the world into recession while
# at the same time offering a plan for survival.
#
# It’s a difficult balancing act particularly since
# many Americans are outraged that the Government’s
# trillion dollar rescue plan for the financial
# industry won’t save people with mortgages.
#
# In New Jersey, Tracy Bowden meets Marcia and
# Larry Klioze who, having spent a year trying to
# avoid foreclosure, are now accepting the inevitable
# – they will lose their home.
#
# They’re angry and embarrassed and plan to express
# themselves on the fourth of November when they’ll
# vote in the presidential and congressional elections.
#
# Across the Hudson River in Manhattan, Bowden catches
# the subway with veteran trader Ted Weisberg as he goes
# to work on the floor of the NYSE.
#
# Weisburg says “greed” and “fear” have brought the near
# collapse of the markets where he’s spent his working life."
#
#
# Greed and Fear are what the Australian Prime Minister
# has said we need to address.. this suggests that what is
# required is as much about changes in values and behaviour,
# as they are about changes in regulation or the level
# of Socialist intervention.. these are Spiritual matters;
#
# "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
#
# - http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
#
# "The most despised of men before God is he who
# sits and begs. ...
# The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
# calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
# kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
#
# - Baha'u'llah
#
# You can't pull out ONE bit because you like it, and leave
# others..it's a package.
#
# The duty each person has to develop their skills and
# capacities to make a living so that they are a blessing,
# not a burden, to their community, is to be carried out in
# an environment of equity, fairness, and justice, ..
# dealing with honesty and integrity with a concern for the
# community.
#
# If these values are not right, no economic or political
# superstructure will be successful.
#
#
# Education for the Next generation of Brokers, Bankers
# and Regulators:
#
# http://www.virtuesproject.com/entry2.html
#
#
# 'Adopt as your fundamental creed that you will equip
# yourself for life, not solely for your own benefit,
# but for the benefit of the whole community'
#
# - Sir John Monash, 1923
#
# I believe this crisis is going to cause a significant
# re-think about these fundamental matters, not just
# among Americans, bu across the entire world.
#
# This is a Global crisis.. the response, much more than
# in the 1920's, will see global co-operation create
# global solutions.
#
#
# ---------
#
# "Ohhhhh Say can you see
# By the dawns early light
# The markets in panic
# and Republicans take flight! "
#
# ---------
#
#
# "The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
# Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
# Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
#
# http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
#
#
# ---------
#########
# Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:11:59 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Subject: "M.L. King's dream realised in the election of Obama"
# Re: -" I Have a Dream" - The Beginning of the Fulfilment
# of the Vision
# Message-ID: <491298c2$0$4450$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# fasgnadh wrote:
# >
># I Have a Dream
>#
># http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream
>#
># "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up
># and live out the true meaning of its creed:
># 'We hold these truths to be self-evident,
># that all men are created equal.'"
#
#
#
# "King's dream realised in the election of Obama"
# - The Age 6/11/2008 - PM Rudd seconding my Post!
#
# "Mr Rudd said Senator Obama inspired America and brought a
# message of hope for a world which in many respects feared
# for its future."
#
# When you listen to Economist and Market Insiders, Corporate
# Chiefs and heads of Financial Institutions, talk about the
# Global Economic Crisis they speak more of INTANGIBLE
# EMOTIONS than they do about technical matters.. the Credit
# Crisis is fundamentally about FEAR, unwillingness to TRUST..
# The stock market is in it's FEAR cycle, FEAR stops consumers
# from spending, and investors from launching new ventures..
# And here we have a President who INSPIRES HOPE!
#
# It's what Religion traditionally provides, and Barrack
# Hussein Obama IS a Believer.. not a sectarian divider,
# but a Uniter.
#
# The need for a SPIRITUAL SOLUTION to the economic problem
# has never been more stark and clear.. and with the Market
# numb with FEAR ....cometh the man!
#
# Calm, confident, measured.. he inspires hope and that
# is the antidote to the FEAR which Grips MOLOCH, the
# idol of Greed which the Market has been worshipping! ;-)
#
# Someone asked in another thread about Prayer.
#
# Prayer is answered when we still our minds, ...consult our
# spirit, discern what is required, and act to bring it
# about. Americans have done that, and chosen the man who,
# when he speaks, eases their fear with his calm reason,
# his rational thought, his deep understanding of the problem
# and his FAITH that TOGETHER it can be solved!
# It's not Magic, people actually have to ACT on the hope,
# and make it concrete and real, but the first step is
# 'casting out the demon' of FEAR. B^)
#
# THIS is a LEADER.
#
# And the active force is NOT technical!!! It is SPIRITUAL power.
# And if you ask Obama WHERE it comes from, he will tell you. ;-)
#
#
# It is NOT MATERIALISM or CLEVERNESS or SPIN or FANTASY
# or SUPERSTITION.. it is an indestructible FAITH combined
# with a RATIONAL ENDOWMENT which makes a complete Human Being.
#
#
#
# That is why the whole world RESPONDS to this man.
#
# It is not him wearing his Religion on his sleeve,
# or as a stick pin, It is not posturing as
# "One OF The Righteous", as the religious right have
# done, and been found wanting, and been rejected.
#
# His Faith is quiet, and genuine.. measured not by
# his pious recitation of Dogma, nor by his standing
# in Judgement of the outsiders and the outcasts..
# because he KNOWS their World!
#
# HE is an INCLUSIVE DEMOCRAT, he stands WITH PEOPLE
# and unites them, not accumulating power to
# himself by encouraging Divide et Empera,
# Divide and Conquer, in which some see themselves
# as The Righteous, and others are denigrated and demonized
#
# ...
# In a Global economy, as we have all seen, you can't
# say "the hole is in YOUR end of the boat"
#
# We sink or swim TOGETHER.
#########
# Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:50:51 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
# Newsgroups: aus.politics,aus.invest,soc.culture.australian,
# alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.democrats,uk.politics.misc
# Subject: "Islamic finance rides the storm" - "Justice, partnership
# and opposition to excessive risk" outdo UNREGULATED GREED!
# Message-ID: <48f149ea$0$18427$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
#
# - http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
#
#
# "The most despised of men before God is he who
# sits and begs. ...
# The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
# calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
# kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
#
# - Baha'u'llah
#
#
# "Islamic finance rides the storm"
# The Age 11/10/2008
#
# "A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
# these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
# profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
# interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
# is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
# commerce: Islamic finance.
#
# While the Western world's financial system has been
# imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
# world capital has weathered the storm.
#
# Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
# their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
# in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
# September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
# the previous year.
#
# Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
# the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
# than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
# cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
# under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
# This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
# Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
#
# What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
# lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
# speculation and heavy borrowing."
#
# Halleluja!
#
# Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
#
# Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
# in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
#
# "In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
# has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
# and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
#
# Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
#
# The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
# countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
# branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
# is one of a few lenders offering the service.
#
# Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
# are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
#
# Say that again.
#
# "Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
# has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
# are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
# Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
#
# But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
# is a ban on interest.
#
# Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
# into account how changes in the value of the loan's
# security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
# owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
# this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
# from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
#
# However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
# ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
# interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
# borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
# and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
# the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
#
# Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
# repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
# But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
# on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
# have not had to venture into money markets that have
# recently blown up.
#
# For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
# is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
# depositors get a cut of any profits.
#
# Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
# ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
# what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
#
# Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
# in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
# provides a better way to link the financial system to
# the "real" economy.
#
# Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
# the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
# sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
# The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
# its failures, the argument goes.
#
# I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
# interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
# weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
# needs of the rest of the economy.
#
# In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
# devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
# higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
# investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
# savings are put to more useful ends.
#
# Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
# sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
# assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
# of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
# seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
# at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
# any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
# from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
#
# Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
# finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
# that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
# although the method of lending makes it harder for
# investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
# its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
# is another tension, The Economist notes.
#
# Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
# filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
# is crammed with capital works projects in need of
# funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
# world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
# less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
# huge room for growth.
#
# The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
# crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
# billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
# months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
# time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
# to hit $US25 billion next year.
#
# This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
# and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
# London is vying to capture the market and has changed
# its laws to allow the different property transfers
# required for the lending. British media report growing
# interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
# that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
#
# So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
# global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
# Given the present financial mess, the industry's
# resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
#
#
# ---------
#
# "Money is our god" - The First International Bank of the Golden Calf
#
# "Money not morality is the principal of a commercial nation"
# - Thomas Jefferson
#
# ---------
#########
# Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:36:46 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
# Subject: Re: Paulson: The Financial Markets are Stablized ?
# But the Financial markets are NOT the entire economy
# Message-ID: <491f8744$0$18427$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
#
# SORR Point wrote:
# >I watched Henry Paulson on PBS News Hour
# > "we have Stablized the Financial markets, and that was our
# > first major priority" [sic]
#
# That is correct, but your entire post proceeds on assuming that
# the financial markets are the entire economy, and that is not
# the case.
#
# What has been 'stabilised' is the Critical failure of credit markets,
# LIBOR rates are falling and liquidity has begun to be restored.
#
# But that is only ONE ASPECT of the Global economic crisis which
# includes the cause, collapse of the US sub-prime market,
# subsequent failure of US and foreign financial institutions,
# temporarily staunched by Socialist bail-outs,
# collapse of confidence, sending stock markets into wild gyrations
# and rapid decline, and now the unfolding in the real economy
# with threatened closures of companies like GM and consequent
# redundancies.. this phase has hardly begun and will devastate
# the US economy no matter what the rest of the world does.
#
# The US economy has massive STRUCTURAL problems, China and the rest
# of Asia merely have cyclical downturns.
#
# > The first primary perspective needs to be a Global one,
# > and not a centric USA one. The whole picture needs to
# > be considered, and the talking heads like Paulson are not
# > giving you the full story on a Global Scale.
#
# Naturally, Paulson is an ex-Merchant banker, a member of the
# decayed financial sector which gave us Buffet's "Weapons
# of Mass Financial Destruction" the derivatives
# which supposedly removed risk from lending (by simply
# passing the poison parcel on) and thus enabled predatory
# lending with NO prudential restraint.
#
# That caused the sub-prime Bubble in American real estate, and the only
# role 'globalisation' played is that some countries, foolishly, bought
# the mortgage risk derivatives, and were left holding them when the
# bubble burst.
#
# Let us look briefly at the G20 communiqué to see that the economic
# leadership agree:
#
# # "Full text: Group of 20 summit communiqué
# # - Reuters 15/11/2008
# #
# # WASHINGTON -- Following is the full text of the communiqué
# # released by the leaders of Group of 20 on Saturday.
# #
# # DECLARATION
# #
# # SUMMIT ON FINANCIAL MARKETS AND THE WORLD ECONOMY
# # November 15, 2008
# #....
# #
# # Root Causes of the Current Crisis
# #################################
# #
# # 3. During a period of strong global growth, growing capital flows,
# # and prolonged stability earlier this decade, market participants
# # sought higher yields without an adequate appreciation of the risks
# # and failed to exercise proper due diligence.
#
# Global investors had opportunities to invest in US real
# estate for DECADES, and when poor people who were a bad
# credit risk applied for a homeloan they were simply refused.
# That was is prudential lending.
# What changed was the availability of Mortgage securities,
# a new financial instrument, which enabled the US lenders
# to pass on the RISK of default to others.
# From that point greed took over, as the lenders no longer
# faced wearing the punishment of IMPRUDENT LENDING!!!
# The nexus between lending and possible loss (by the lender)
# was (apparently) broken, so they began lending not a
# proportion of their assets, but a MULTIPLE of them,
# basically to anyone who could BREATHE.
#
#
# # At the same time,
# # weak underwriting standards, unsound risk management
# # practices, increasingly complex and opaque financial
# # products, and consequent excessive leverage combined
# # to create vulnerabilities in the system.
#
#
# This bubble,as they all do, burst, people became unable
# to pay their loans, property values started to fall,
# lenders went into a coma, merchant banks and others with
# high exposure to this decade's Junk Financial Instrument
# began to collapse and Fear replaced Greed not just
# in the Mortgage market, but EVERY Market!
#
# It is because the losses are still incalculable, a bottomless pit,
# that the fear remains unstoppable no matter what governments
# do to prop up markets or institutions with socialist rescue.
#
# 10 years of the Bush Administrations anti-regulatory even CORRUPT
# (Haliburton, Privatised Iraq war) government meant that not even
# warnings were issued.. the Market was completely CLUELESS about
# it's massive impending FAILURE.
#
# Naturally all those implicated are trying to find smoke to blow and
# mirrors to tilt, so we get the ludicrous sight of George Bush
# declaring Capitalism hasn't Failed, regulation might be the problem! B^D
#
# # Policy-makers, regulators and supervisors, in some
# # advanced countries, did not adequately appreciate
# # and address the risks building up in financial markets,
# # keep pace with financial innovation, or take into
# # account the systemic ramifications of domestic
# # regulatory actions."
# #
# # © Thomson Reuters
#
#
# "Policy makers" are the Bush administration, their appointed Paper
# Tiger regulators and supervisors....
#
# So you want to blow some smoke and blame 'globalisation'?
# the rest of us buying China's manufacturing and allowing
# them to prop up the dollar? That merely prolonged the
# day that the USSA was confronted with its need for
# structural economic reform, instead of living off DEBT,
# it's borrowing from OTHER PEOPLES SAVINGS, to pay for it's
# consumption!
#
# That, bucko, is over.. and Americans cannot avoid the pain
# of structural adjustment, till you are living within
# your means.
#
#
#> For 20 years plus now, globalization has been a rapidly moving
#> force in the world.
#
# Much longer than that. The world is inevitably a
# single economy.. global trade and investment ensures that..
# what has been CHRONICALLY SLOW to develop has been
# the legal framework at the GLOBAL level which every
# NATIONAL government provides for domestic business activity
# and global institutions to provide the necessary regulation,
# which again, exist in every national, state and even some
# Local Council levels but NOT effectively, at the global level..
# increasingly the most critical one! 8^o
#
#
# The G20 yesterday, confirmed the cause of the Global economic
# crisis to be the sub prime fiasco, and it's
# CAUSES are precisely outlined above.
#
# All the Global economic interdependency did is is enable other
# countries to participate in the cluster-fuck. As you point out:
#
#
# # Part of the proper perspective means understanding that
# # the at least 80% of the now worthless Sub-prime Mortgage
# # Assets that were re-packaged by USA Finance Institutions
# # were sold overseas and now sit in London, Berlin,
# # Japan, China, and other nations Financial Institutions
# # and Govt. entities. Be they private/govt Pension Funds,
# # local Govt Investments, or major private
# # banks.
#
# That does not make globalisation the cause of the infection,
# merely a vector for it's broader transmission, just as a train
# carrying an Ebola victim is not the cause of the disease,
# but merely helps to spread it. (to use your medical metaphor ;-)
#
#
# Some did and were burned extensively (Iceland, the UK other European
# nations that suffered Bank collapses.)
#
# Others were too big to be ignored and defaulted on, and their pressure,
# the 2000lb Panda, were what forced the USSA to react and prop up
# Freddie and Fanny:
#
# # Message-ID: <48C4404E.7010...@yahoo.com.au>
# # Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:57:50 +1000
# # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au>
# # Subject: China holds the American economy by the nuts
# # - And Squeezes! ..Bush Squeals 8^o
# #
# # This is the precursor to the Nationalization of Fannie
# # Mae and Freddie Mac by the US government
# #
# # "China goes the big squeeze"
# #
# # The Age 30/8/2008
# #
# # "A high-ranking Chinese economist has put his nation's
# # cards on the table in the global financial
# # poker game by effectively telling the US
# # to fix Freddie and Fannie … or else.
# #
# # "A failure of US mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae and
# # Freddie Mac could be a catastrophe for the global financial
# # system", Yu Yongding, a former adviser to China's central
# # bank, says.
# #
# # "If the US government allows Fannie and Freddie to fail and
# # international investors are not compensated adequately, the
# # consequences will be catastrophic," Yu said in e-mailed
# # answers to Bloomberg. "If it is not the end of the world,
# # it is the end of the current international financial system."
# #
# # It is well within the bounds of imagination. People have
# # been thinking the unthinkable for some time.
# #
# # Yu Yongding, whose statement seems to have been lost
# # to most of the world as the Olympics came to a merciful
# # end, is described as "a former adviser to China's Central
# # Bank". He is possibly the most highly accredited economist
# # in China.
# #
# # Men like Yu Yongding don't just get up one morning and
# # say this sort of thing. US Treasury Secretary Paulson was
# # put on notice.
#
# # The Chinese have basically said "we have spent 10 years
# # of savings on your junk and it is getting close to high
# # noon" - and the US has come quickly to attention.
# #
# # For the Chinese have not declared war, but issued a
# # statement of intent.
# # It might have been ignored by much of the planet, but
# # the US Fed, to whom the statement was directed, took note.
#
#
# In my view this will be seen as the historical tipping point at which
# the declining American economic dominance was challenged dramatically
# by rising Chinese economic clout.. and the USSA blinked. 8^o
#
#
# > Initial figures put that amount of Sub-prime related
# > MBS's at about 1,000 Billion USD. The reality is probably more
# > like $10,000 Billion Dollars = $10
# > Trillion!!! 80% of which was shunted overseas.
# >
# > Internationally, some people are not very happy about
# > this, and are looking directly at the USA as being
# > complicit and responsible for selling worthless
# >assets as AAA rated securites investments.
# > Remember people are people, and >behave like people usually do.
# >
# > The G20 has been painted as a group of nations coming
# > together to try to solve some serious problems together.
# > Yes, that's true. But a more accurate perspective is
# > that 19 major economies came to the USA to be convinced that
# > the USA was actually going to step up to the plate and
# > act in a responsible way individually as well as collectively.
#
#
# Unlikely to happen till Bush is gone.
#
# >By all accounts, the USA has failed in this regard,
# >
# > Prior to the meeting there was public talk about
# > the G20 meeting being equivalent to the Bretton Woods
# > Conference in 1944 which created the then
# > "new world order" for Financial and Economic Affairs.
# > The G20 has been a failure in this regard, but a new
# > global agreement was exactly what was critically needed
# > at this hour.
#
# If ever there was evidence of need for more effective Global
# Governance, this crisis is it!
#
# The world understands that a GLOBALLY Co-ORDINATED
# response is required for a global crisis,
# but one of the Key teams has it's Lame Duck in the
# pilot's seat and the Man of Change, sitting on the bench, waiting to
# take-over.. B^p
#
# The global response is impeded by domestic US politics!
# With potentially catastrophic results.. the man who
# was most responsible for FAILED US Regulation, who is least
# interested in it, and still declares "No Problems with Capitalism"
# is occupying the most important seat at the table!!!! 8^o
#
# On matters of this scale and significance to the whole world,
# we need effective, democratic representation at the GLOBAL,
# not merely national level!!!
#
# > All the information is out there, the issue is
# > looking AT IT in the correct light, or the right perspective.
#
# And what that allows is a PREDICTIVE CAPACITY.
#
# I have consistently been ahead of the international response,
# not merely reacting to it.
#
# I will leave you with your "Sick Man of the America's parable,
# as it treats the claim to have stabilised the *Financial* market
# as if it was a claim to have stabilised the whole patient, the
# economy.
#
# Not so.
#
# They have simply shot some adrenalin into heart of it's Credit
# blood flow system, because the shock of sub-Prime Ebola had sent
# the patient into Cardiac Arrest.
#
# The pump is working again.. the effort is now into
# saving the patient, if possible,
# and preventing the spread of CONTAGION!
#
# Naturally the chosen priority depends on your perspective, the US
# patient or the rest of the planet.
#
# We just don't want to catch what they have...
# we might pray for the patients recovery, but we sure
# as shit are not going to lend it five bucks, we
# may never see again! ;-)
#
# Apparently the Friedmanites still say, "take the patient off Socialist
# Life Support and see if it Self-Corrects and lives.
#
# An interesting experiment, for everyone except the patient.
#
# ..
# >
# > "At present, their condition is Stable however,"
#
# There is nothing about the US economy that could be described
# as stable.
# Paulson's comment that the (global) *Financial* system, credit and
# international payments was 'stable' does not mean there is even a plan
# to deal with the structural reforms required in the USSA! B^p
#
# > "we would encourage you to hope for the best,
# > but plan for the worst as being the rational thing to do."
#
# Preparing for the worst is always important, to the prudent
#
# Investors around the world are now scrambling for safety.
#
# So, the deeper question is:
#
# What is Wealth? And where does safety lie
#
# That Gold I bought at $350 an oz is looking very very good
# right about now!
#
# But the farm is looking even better!!!!! B^D
#
# Rainbow Ridge:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldrainbowrid...
#
# Meeting of the Board of Directors:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/boardmeetingatmansf...
#
# From the commanding heights, northeast across the river flat
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldfromtherid...
#
# The saddle and the pines on the western ridge:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldthesaddle.jpg
#
# The house IN the hill:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldthehousein...
#
# Rich Riverland:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldrichriverl...
#
# Organic farming on the river flat:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldorganicfar...
#
# Kids gather under the almond and walnut trees to audit the assets:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldshareholde...
#
# Skinnydipping in the Delatite, straight out of the Mountains:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldtheolswimm...
#
# Kids cubbyhouse:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldkidscubby.jpg
#
# Grownups cubby:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldhousehammo...
#
# Many Fish bites if you got good bait:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldmanyfishbi...
#
# Middle Valley dam:
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldmiddlevall...
#
# Liz, Ree and China, workin the land: B^D
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/lizreeandchina.jpg
#
# The Summer of 87 - weathering the last global financial storm ;-)
# http://www.geocities.com/che_guava_fanclub/images/mansfieldsummer87.jpg
#
#
# You see, ultimately, you can't eat a share portfolio! ;-)
#
# > I think we should all go and pray! "
#
#
# Prayer? Very apt. The Market itself describes it's crisis as a
# dramatic switch from Greed to Fear...
#
# Clearly that is no way to run something so serious as an economy.
#
# Prudence, is of course a form of wisdom, a spiritual attribute
# which was Abandoned in the corruption of the American property
# market. And clearly that means a Spiritual solution, not just
# 'prayer' an ACTIVE application of real virtues to the Economic
# problem is required, as others have been saying for at least
# 164 years
#
#
# "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
#
# - http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
#
# "There is no cut and dried system of economics.
# Baha''u'lla'h establishes certain principles and
# leaves it to us to build the structure.
# There is a danger of the popular term "new world order"
# conjuring up a picture of something for nothing,
# of state supported individuals enjoying all the
# advantages of prosperity without any adequate
# contribution of hard work or service.
# Baha''u'lla'h requires every-one to work,
# no idle rich and no idle poor.
#
# "The most despised of men before God is he who
# sits and begs. ...
# The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
# calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
# kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
#
# - Baha'u'llah
fasgnadh
> On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> One World
>>
>> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>
> I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
> 1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually
> kill or convert them all.
Like the Christians, vastly outnumbered, were wiped out within
two centuries of Christ's crucifixion? ;-)
Do you really understand so little about the dynamics of faith, Richo?
Death won't stop them and the the fear of it doesn't convert them:
20,000 Babi's were wiped out in Persia.
The Bab was executed, and a mob tore his body to pieces,
dedicated followers secretly removed his remains to where
they are now interred;
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/y300.jpg
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/x860.jpg
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/y110.jpg
Bahai's have still been tortured and killed, in Iran,
but nothing can extinguish their faith...
It has spread from there to be the second most geographically
dispersed religion, after Christianity. It is so influential
that the emancipation of women and the development of
global governance have taken place during it's formative stage..
before it's own global administration was constructed.
http://www.bahaipictures.com/hd/y200a.jpg
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/p50.jpg
Too nice to survive? B^D
These folk look like they are here to stay! B^D
Look, The Soviet NKVD and Mao's Red Guard atheists were
tough bastards, so were the nazis.. where are they now?
But the Buddhists are still around. B^D
Baha'u'llah, like Siddharta, was born into the ruling elite,
a position in the Shah's ministry was his for the asking,
he chose instead to be a friend to the poor.
He was thrown into the Siyyah Chal 'The Black Pit' a dungeon
with only one entrance, stairs leading down, no light, no
toilets and no drains. Around his neck was placed a chain so heavy
it left it's mark upon his body for life.
It was in this foul pit that he experienced revelation, and it is
described in Bahai texts.
He was dragged into exile in Akka, under the control of the
corrupt Ottoman empire.. his cell was upper right;
http://www.bahaullah.org/akka/imposing-citadel/
These are the gardens at Bahji, the Shrine of Baha'u'llah;
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/p40.jpg
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/x720.jpg
Abdu'l Baha, Baha'u'llah's son, so won over the prison
Authorities and the city authorities that the British
Occupying forces knighted him for his service to the
Palestinians... the Muslims who had exiled and jailed his family.
When he died thousands of Christians, Muslims and Jews wept at
his funeral.
All that you see about a persecuted refugee people forging
an embryonic global civilisation, derives from the Spiritual
force of the Messenger of God, and his servants.
Even while in prison his reputation travelled far, and Tolstoy
wrote, "The Key to World Peace is in the hand of the prisoner of Akka."
Nothing has, or can, impede the faith of God.
"By the righteousness of God! Should they cast Him
into a fire kindled on the continent, He will
assuredly rear His head in the midmost heart of
the ocean and proclaim:
"He is the Lord of all that are in heaven and
all that are on earth!"
And if they cast Him into a darksome pit,
they will find Him seated on earth's loftiest
heights calling aloud to all mankind:
"Lo, the Desire of the World is come in His majesty,
His sovereignty, His transcendent dominion!"
And if He be buried beneath the depths of the earth,
His Spirit soaring to the apex of heaven shall
peal the summons:
"Behold ye the coming of the
Glory; witness ye the Kingdom of God, the Most Holy,
the Gracious, the All-Powerful!"
And if they shed His blood, every drop thereof shall
cry out and invoke God in this Name through which the
fragrance of His raiment hath been diffused in all directions."
- Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 60
There are now millions of Bahais...
Bahai children in Iran are still refused entry to university,
they must flee their homeland if they wish to be educated,
their parents are excluded from government office, or the
armed forces.. They ARE citizens, some of the most educated,
before the Revolution, but they have no rights.
These abuses are well documented and have been the subject of UN
condemnation.
http://question.bahai.org/002_2.php
My friend, an elderly woman, was tortured in a Teheran jail
and still walks with signs of her injury where they used the bastinado,
beating the soles of the feet with clubs.
All she had to do to be released was renounce her faith and
become a Muslim. Her only 'crime' was being a Bahai.
She was lucky, and was released, escaped from Iran and brought
her children to Australia as a refugee. Her son is now an Academic
here, and she is not hostile to Islam, which you would understand
if you know Bahai beliefs, but invites Muslim University students
in her block of flats to dinner.
I wonder what they think when they see her framed photographs
of the Bahai temples. Of course, outside of Iran, many educated
Muslims are not hostile to Bahais. It is not a religious conflict,
but a persecution by political/religious bigots.
Here is why the Bahai will neither be converted, nor eradicated;
This is Muna, she was 17 when she was executed.. for teaching
Bahai children's classes .. "Sunday School" to us.
http://question.bahai.org/images/high/Muna_Muhmudnizhad_NN4951_14.jpg
"During the second stage of Mona's interrogation she
was awakened at four o'clock in the morning and
transferred an hour later by automobile to the place
of interrogation. The session lasted most of the day.
She was asked the same questions that she had been
asked over and over again at Seppah about her beliefs.
"I told them that I believed in God and all his
messengers who had revealed a Holy Book and that
we consider them all to be Messengers of God.
The Assistant to the Public Prosecutor said,
'You are accused of being a member of the Zionist
movement, who are spies.' In reply, I told him
that Baha'is have nothing to do with politics.
On the other hand, the state of Israel was founded
only 32 years ago, while the Baha'i Faith was
founded 139 years ago. We only have spiritual
organizations which have nothing to do with politics.
He said, 'There remains only one way for you,
you should either recant the Faith or you will
be executed.' I said I would rather be executed."
THE THIRD STAGE OF INTERROGATION
The final formal interrogation took place a
few days later. Again, Mona was taken away at 5 am.
This time she met with the Islamic Revolutionary Judge,
who handled all of the Baha'i cases in Shiraz.
While the interrogation was the shortest that
she underwent, in many ways it was the most dramatic.
The Judge, after insulting her a long time,
told her that her parents had deceived and
misled her and accused her of following them
without being aware of what she was doing.
She replied,
"Although I was born in a Baha'i family,
according to Baha'i principles, we have to
search for the truth ourselves rather than
imitate our family's ideas and that is
exactly what I have done. You have many of our
Baha'i books here and you could read them and
find this out for yourself. They never insisted
on my becoming a Baha'i or accepting their ideas.
If Your Honour insists that I recant my Faith,
I should assure you that I will never do that
and that I am ready to be executed."
The Judge was shocked at that point and looked
at her angrily, saying, "You are just a child.
How could you possibly know the real meaning
of the word Faith? " Mona replied,
"What more proof do you need than that I was
dragged out of school and put in jail and now,
for many months, have endured all these
interrogations for the sake of my religion.
What else but my Faith could give me the
strength and power to stand here in front
of you and answer your Questions."
Then the Judge asked her to pray and she replied,
"I cannot do that." The judge asked her,
"What do you mean?" and Mona pointed out,
"You would have to sit respectfully, with your
hands folded on your chest before I would
recite a prayer ." At first, the Judge refused,
but after awhile, as though spellbound by her
spiritual character, he complied with her wish
and she recited the prayer:
"O God, refresh and gladden my spirit.
Purify my heart. Illumine my powers.
I lay all my affairs in Thy hand.
Though art My Guide and My Refuge.
I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved.
I will be a happy and joyful being.
O God, I will no longer be full of anxiety,
nor will I let trouble harass me.
I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.
"O God, Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself.
I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord."
When Mona had finished reciting the prayer the puzzled
Judge asked her , "Why did you not chant it?" To which
Mona replied, "I only chant from my heart and when I
am alone, not in front of you." The Judge was deeply
moved and said, "In the night when you and your father
were arrested, the revolutionary guards brought back
lots of tapes of your chanting. You are accused of
misleading youth with your beautiful voice and chanting.
Now I am sure about the charges against you."
Mona replied,
"Your Honour, is chanting, praying
and repeating the verses of God a crime?"
He said, "Child, what is wrong with Islam that you
have became a Baha'i?" She explained,
"The foundation of all religions are one, but according
to the circumstances, after some period of time a new
prophet is assigned by God to guide mankind. But if you
are trying to force me to become a Muslim, I should say
that nothing is wrong with Islam. But its followers do
not know anything but killing and terrorism, examples of
which can be observed every day in this very prison.
This is the reason why I have decided to become a Baha'i."
The Judge said, "We are acting according to our Holy Book
the Quran."
Her fellow prisoners were all astonished and kept asking
how she dared to answer the Judge like that. "How dare
you tell them all that so openly?" someone asked.
http://www.adressformona.org/old/storyofmona/storyofmona3.htm
Muna was one of ten women hung for this 'crime',
teaching Children's classes, in Shiraz on 18 June 1983.
"One of the men attending the gallows confided
to a Bahá’í: “We tried saving their lives up
to the last moment, but one by one, first the
older ladies, then the young girls, were hanged
while the others were forced to watch, it being
hoped that this might induce them to recant their
belief. We even urged them to say they were not
Bahá’ís, but not one of them agreed; they preferred
the execution.”
Do you understand how nothing can 'kill or convert them' all, now?
http://question.bahai.org/004_1.php
http://question.bahai.org/002.php
> 2) They still suffer the fault of being a monotheism - some very
> strong moral people seem able to resist its corrupting influence and
> remain good people - but for humanity in general in the end its
> poisonous to morality, antithetical to wisdom and an excuse for being
> mean and callous to "the others".
Can you just show me how that is the case with the Bahai...
Some examples of their 'poisonous morality' their being 'mean and
callous to "the Others"' would suffice.
> "God" is just a very bad idea - and is not a uniting one but a
> divisive force.
Really? I met a young schoolgirl some years ago, she was the
Australian Youth representative to the Earth Summit in Rio
in 1992.
"The Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro was unprecedented for a UN
conference, in terms of both its size and the scope of its concerns.
Twenty years after the first global environment conference, the UN
sought to help Governments rethink economic development and find ways to
halt the destruction of irreplaceable natural resources and pollution of
the planet. Hundreds of thousands of people from all walks of life were
drawn into the Rio process. They persuaded their leaders to go to Rio
and join other nations in making the difficult decisions needed to
ensure a healthy planet for generations to come.
The Summit’s message — that nothing less than a transformation
of our attitudes and behaviour would bring about the necessary
changes — was transmitted by almost 10,000 on-site journalists
and heard by millions around the world. The message reflected
the complexity of the problems facing us: that poverty as well
as excessive consumption by affluent populations place damaging
stress on the environment. Governments recognized the need to
redirect international and national plans and policies to
ensure that all economic decisions fully took into account
any environmental impact. And the message has produced
results, making eco-efficiency a guiding principle for
business and governments alike."
Her name was May Eshragi, and she was a Persian Bahai.
The Bahai have played active roles as an NGO in the UN,
(and in the League before it) because the UNITING of the
peoples and Nations of the world is an act of faith for
them, and they have been leaders in teaching and educating
about it.
May was a teenager when she went to Rio, part of the
Earth Summit. I remember meeting her because I was so
impressed by her, articulate, smart, mature beyond her
years, and committed to ecology..
What have you done to be 'a positive uniting force, not
a divisive one', Mark?
> Mark.
fasgnadh
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:53:37 -0800 (PST), Richo
> <m.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> One World
>>>
>>> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>>
>> I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
>> 1) They are just too nice -
Who were the nicest, the Romans and their Colosseum, or the
Christians they fed to their lions?
Now.. who won.. who has endured and conquered? ;-)
Who were the nicest, a handful of Bahai refugees who built
a Temple in remote Ashkabad, or the Atheist tyranny
which stole it, defiled it and persecuted the believers?
That atheist regime is gone, consigned to the dustbin of
History for totalitarian shitholes, and the Bahai faith
has spread worldwide and prospered.
>> the Muslims and Christians will eventually
>> kill or convert them all.
The Christians have never attacked Bahais as the
ignorant and barbarous Atheist savages did! 8^o
> We've had Bahai loonies here before.
So your initial hostility to me asking questions like;
"Why are there no great enduring Atheist civilisations?" and
"Why are the only three Atheist regimes in history all brutal
totalitarian regimes responsible for 40,000,000 dead?" was not just
your angry embarrassment at being confronted with the horrors of Atheist
dogma, but also your stereotypes and prejudice!
Thanks for the heads up, we can now see the irrational basis
of mindless hate on which you Atheists persecuted the Bahai
last century, and intend to do the same now;
Atheists, celebrating a Hundred Years of crimes against religious
believers and human rights abuses;
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4IMeKsxNr7c
"O HEEDLESS ONES!
Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay,
know ye of a certainty that in clear characters
they are engraved and are openly manifest in the
holy Presence."
- Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words
> Every bit as nasty as Christian and Muslim ones
> after we don't want to hear their message
Is that why you expropriate temples and persecute believers and
then pretend you believe in Free speech and complain if a an
advertising company pulls your billboard because you are disliked?
I defend your right to go out an buy a billboard and put whatever you
like on it, just as I defend the right for Bahai to build a beautiful
place of worship without having Atheist savages and irrational medieval
barbarians expropriate it under totalitarian state oppression and
persecution of beliefs you don't like and cannot rebut with logic and
reason.
40,000,000 victims of Atheist rule - scratch an atheist, find a monster.
> that their loony leader is everybody's.
Unlike your loonie Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, the Bahai insist
there must be no compulsion in religion, they will never steal your
property and persecute you as you Atheists have done to them.
They were refugees from horrific persecution and the Godless
and heartless Atheists INCREASED their persecution and suffering..
What cowards! What base moral defectives! What irrational thugs!
Let us hope that modern Atheists can turn away from the path of hatred
and violence, and learn how to get along with everyone else, for a change.
Shalom and Salaam
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."
- Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 116
The Promise of World Peace:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhiC_2yh_A
Richo
> Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:53:37 -0800 (PST), Richo
> > <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> One World
>
> >>>http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>
> >> I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
> >> 1) They are just too nice -
>
> Let us hope that modern Atheists can turn away from the path of hatred
> and violence, and learn how to get along with everyone else, for a change.
>
Let us hope that people can turn away from the path of hatred and
violence whatever their level of superstitious belief.
Mark.
Richo
> Richo wrote:
> > On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> One World
>
> >>http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>
> > I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
> > 1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually
> > kill or convert them all.
>
> Like the Christians, vastly outnumbered, were wiped out within
> two centuries of Christ's crucifixion? ;-)
>
Christianity won the lottery when it became the official religion of
the Roman Empire - history could have easily taken a different turn.
Don't confuse chaos with destiny.
> Do you really understand so little about the dynamics of faith, Richo?
>
I understand more than some, less than others. A bit like my knowledge
of butterflies.
> Death won't stop them and the the fear of it doesn't convert them:
>
I am sure the Norsemen felt the same about Thor and Freya.
> 20,000 Babi's were wiped out in Persia.
>
I know - it is a terrible history.
> Bahai's have still been tortured and killed, in Iran,
> but nothing can extinguish their faith...
>
Not yet.
After all the persecution by the believers in "the one true God" isn't
it peculiar that people don't begin to suspect that there is
something.... unhealthy in the idea of "the one true God"?
You are right about me - I don't understand faith.
Mark.
Kelsey Bjarnason
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:56:16 +1100, fasgnadh wrote:
> Who were the nicest, the Romans and their Colosseum, or the Christians
> they fed to their lions?
Since the Romans stopped doing that around 313, while the Christians went
on to spend the next 1700 years killing, torturing and persecuting
others, arguably the Romans were the nicer bunch.
> Now.. who won.. who has endured and conquered? ;-)
Considering that there are an estimated 2 billion Christians - many of
whom we can, based on several reports of people doing just this -
conclude are only "Christian" in the sense of going to church on Sunday,
rather than buying into the crap, and considering the world population is
some 6.7 billion people, one could argue it is _not_ the Christians, but
rather, everyone else.
> Who were the nicest, a handful of Bahai refugees who built a Temple in
> remote, or the Atheist tyranny which stole it, defiled it and
> persecuted the believers?
I assume you mean the temple in Ashkhabad, Russia. Confiscated in 1910.
Hmm. 1910. Hmm. 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The
Martyr). Also known as "Saint Nicholas the Passion Bearer". Not the
nicest guy, to be sure, but also a devout religious fellow, from the
looks of things. Devout enough to be canonized as a martyr. Hmm...
"Despite the original opposition the Russian Orthodox Church inside
Russia ultimately recognised the family as "passion bearers," or people
who met their deaths with Christian humility."
Not sure exactly what part of that qualifies him as an atheist.
> That atheist regime is gone
The atheist regime headed by a rampant Christian theist.
>, consigned to the dustbin of History for
> totalitarian shitholes, and the Bahai faith has spread worldwide and
> prospered.
Indeed. As of 2005, Bahai's numbered a whopping 0.12% of the world
population. Assuming the world population in 2005 was about 6 billion
even, that makes for some 7.2 million of them worldwide. Making them, by
the way, one of the smallest religious groups represented, with others
being Confucianists (0.10%), Jains (0.07%) and Shintoists (0.04%). By
contrast, atheists numbered some 2.35%, or about 20 times as populous -
and that despite a long historical impetus *not* to be identified as
atheist.
> >> the Muslims and Christians will eventually
>>> kill or convert them all.
>
> The Christians have never attacked Bahais as the ignorant and barbarous
> Atheist savages did! 8^o
Well, apart from taking over their temple, as we saw above. Then again,
that was the only incident I bothered looking into - just how sure are
you it's the only incident at all?
> > We've had Bahai loonies here before.
>
> So your initial hostility to me asking questions like; "Why are there no
> great enduring Atheist civilisations?"
One might ask where the great enduring civilizations of *any sort* are.
See many Romans around? No? How about Hellenistic Greeks? No? Hmm.
Ra-worshipping Egyptians? No? What about all the central and southern
american civilizations? Nope, they're gone, too.
A few remain, in somewhat tattered clothes left from years gone by. The
British Empire today pales in comparison to what it once was. The
Vikings, who held sway and could demand tributes from even the most
powerful empires of their day, are largely gone. The few places which
have managed to survive for lengthy periods are, on the whole, not what
one would consider "great" - I note a distinct lack of people moving
from, say, the US into certain arid regions in the Middle East, for
example.
So where are the "great enduring" civilizations of *any* sort? They
seem, on the whole, to simply not exist. Since you keep harping upon the
issue of *atheist* civilizations not enduring one must conclude that you
have a long list of shining examples of *theist* civilizations which have
endured in greatness. Do, please, trot them out.
> and "Why are the only three
> Atheist regimes in history all brutal totalitarian regimes responsible
> for 40,000,000 dead?"
I'm sorry, I am unaware of _any_ atheist regimes in history. I suspect
you're thinking of things such as Stalinist Russia, to which the only
sensible response would have to be "Are you fucking insane?"
That regime was no more an atheistic regime than it was a regime of
moustaches. Even the most trivial reading of the man's actions are
sufficient to demonstrate that his call was to power and that he was not
above eliminating anyone who challenged that - communists, the poor, and
yes, many a priest.
What this has to do with atheism, though, is far from clear, particularly
as Christianity (among other religions) has produced an endless stream of
people with similar calls to power - and has also produced many similar
acts of attempted eradication.
> Atheists, celebrating a Hundred Years of crimes against religious
> believers and human rights abuses;
>
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4IMeKsxNr7c
Hmm. This video refers to the taking over of the temple in 1938, which
would be under Stalin.
I must say, I find it curious that you focus so much on how the atheists
took it over, but don't seem in the *least* put out by an avowedly
*Christian* leader doing the exact same thing, 28 years earlier.
> Is that why you expropriate temples and persecute believers and then
> pretend you believe in Free speech and complain if a an advertising
> company pulls your billboard because you are disliked?
Huh? That makes no sense. Someone *removed* a billboard put up under
the ideals of freedom of speech, it was taken down, and protesting that
action is somehow *against* freedom of speech?
Well, that makes as much sense as the religious idiots who cry
"persecution" when someone reacts to millenia of discrimination by saying
"no more".
> I defend your right to go out an buy a billboard and put whatever you
> like on it
Actually, you just defended the _removing_ of such a billboard.
>, just as I defend the right for Bahai to build a beautiful
> place of worship without having Atheist savages and irrational medieval
> barbarians expropriate it
One more time: this has nothing to do with atheism, nor does it have to
do with moustaches. Try engaging your brain for a change; your seething
hatred of all things atheist is causing you to drool and spew falsehoods.
> 40,000,000 victims of Atheist rule - scratch an atheist, find a monster.
Really? Could you kindly point out *one* victim of atheist rule? Yes,
there are many who died as a result of totalitarianism... but religions
have hardly been immune to that, so whatever your gripe is, it's not with
atheism. Presumably it's with totalitarianism, but you don't actually
seem to be quite smart enough to figure that out.
> Unlike your loonie Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, the Bahai insist
> there must be no compulsion in religion, they will never steal your
> property and persecute you as you Atheists have done to them.
Really? Could you kindly point out *one* instance where atheists (as
some sort of group, or government; I'm quite willing to agree there are
crazy atheistic _individuals_, as there are crazies in every walk of
life) have stolen from or persecuted the religious? Yes, we're aware of
a *totalitarian* regime doing these things, just as we are of *religious*
totalitarianism doing these things, but that would mean the issue is with
totalitarianism, not with atheism - but you don't actually seem to be
quite smart enough to figure that out.
> They were refugees from horrific persecution and the Godless and
> heartless Atheists INCREASED their persecution and suffering..
Really? Could you kindly point out *one* instance where atheists (as
some sort of group, or government; I'm quite willing to agree there are
crazy atheistic _individuals_, as there are crazies in every walk of
life) have persecuted the refugees? Yes, we're aware of a *totalitarian*
regime doing these things, just as we are of *religious* totalitarianism
doing these things, but that would mean the issue is with
totalitarianism, not with atheism - but you don't actually seem to be
quite smart enough to figure that out.
> What cowards!
You mean people who blame atheism for things having nothing to do with
atheism? Yes, they are cowards. Stupid, too, as anyone with even the
most passing ability to read can see at a glance that such notions are
bizarrely misinformed.
So, aside from announcing your hatred of atheism - and your presumably
incurable stupidity - to the world, what exactly was the point of your
post?
Sen McGlinn
In a tablet to Mirza Abu’l-Fadl, starting at
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/SWA4/swa4-235.html,
Abdu’l-Baha sets the standard:
“I adjure you by the Ancient Beauty not to insult anyone or wish
humiliation on any soul. ...
“Do not argue with anyone nor engage in disputation. Do not wish
any person’s degradation, nor mention their name in fault. Do not seek
anybody’s loss and do not loosen your tongue to an unkind description
of any man. ... "(draft translation by Ahang Rabbani)
In the long term, the interests of the Faith, and of humanity, will be
served by living up to this standard.
Now, lets try to inject a little rationality into the discussion.
1) It is true that all the states which have been officially atheist
have been totalitarian regimes, and usually brutal: North Korea, the
USSR especially under Stalin, Albania under Enver Hoxha, Cambodia
under the Khmer Rouge, China especially under Mao.
2) However, the same could be said of all states with an official
ideology: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Spain, today's Iran and
Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser degree McCarthyist USA, Turkey (less
today than in the past). This is not very surprising: how do we define
a totalitarian regime? One that regulates nearly every aspect of
public and private life, maintaining its political power by means of
an official all-embracing ideology. (thanks to wikipedia:
totalitarianism). A totalitarian regime without a state ideology is
impossible, and every state with a state ideology is bound to limit at
least what people may do and say, and seek to control what they think
and teach their children.
The correct analysis, which covers both the case of the USSR, Catholic-
fascist Italy, and Shiah-theocratic Iran is that the brutality is due
to having a state ideology, and therefore needing to defend it.
Evidently, it makes no difference whether the state ideology enforces
a particular religion, or is atheist or says nothing about religion.
The mere fact of the state's intrusion into the world of thought and
conscience makes it totalitarian, and forces it to be to some degree
oppressive.
Abdu'l-Baha writes:
" [To insure] freedom of conscience and tranquility of heart and soul
is one of the duties and functions of government, and is in all ages
the cause of progress in development and ascendency over other lands.
Other civilized countries acquired not this preeminence, nor attained
unto these high degrees of influence and power, till such time as they
put away the strife of sects out of their midst, and dealt with all
classes according to one standard. All are one people, one nation, one
species, one kind."
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 87)
He goes on, over several pages, to give examples of countries that
suffered when their governments interfered in matters of conscience,
and contrasts this to the progress of European states once they had
established the principle of freedom of conscience (this was written
circa 1886).
Since it is interference in matters of conscience that makes a state
backwards and brutal, there is no justification for attempting to hang
the crimes of the communist USSR on modern atheists, or the crimes of
Fascist Spain on modern Catholics, or the crimes of today's Iran on
the Shiah. The only people -- outside the regimes themselves -- who
bear responsibility as apologists and facilitators of such crimes, are
those who advocate a state ideology, whatever that ideology may be.
Sen McGlinn
fasgnadh
http://images0.cafepress.com/product/328295920v5_350x350_Front.jpg
"What? You expect me to say something snarky about Christmas just
because I'm an atheist?
Sorry, but I've got better shit to do.
Like grow my beard out."
> One World
>
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:53:37 -0800 (PST), Richo
>>> <m.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> One World
>>>>>
>>>>> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>> >>
>>>> I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
>>>> 1) They are just too nice -
>>
>> and violence, and learn how to get along with everyone else, for a change.
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
- V.I. Lenin
“There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience.
A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.”
- V.I. Lenin)
> Let us hope that people can turn away from the path of hatred and
> violence whatever their level of superstitious belief.
>
> Mark.
>
“The World has never before known a godlessness as organized,
militarized and tenaciously malevolent as that preached by Marxism.
Within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart
of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force,
more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions.
Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist
policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve
its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid
of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction
of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of these objectives
openly, and just as openly put them into practice.”
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
fasgnadh
>> Who were the nicest, a handful of Bahai refugees who built a Temple in
>> remote, or the Atheist tyranny which stole it, defiled it and
>> persecuted the believers?
>
Modern Atheists demonstrate that the links between them and
the Atheist propagandists and Red Terror of the Soviet Union
remain strong;
> I assume you mean the temple in Ashkhabad, Russia. Confiscated in 1910.
> Hmm. 1910. Hmm.
You are not dealing with ancient texts of unknown authenticity here,
Comrade Bjarnyard, this is HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT, that your lies
cannot eradicate:
"Baha'i House of Worship - Ashkabad, Central Asia
House of Worship in Ashkabad Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House
of Worship served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government. The building was
demolished in 1962 after being damaged by an earthquake.
The Ashkhabad House of Worship was in many ways ahead of its time. In
addition to serving as a spiritual center for the thriving Bahá'í
community in that region, it gave practical expression to the
community's humanitarian ideas. Attached to it were a number of
subsidiaries, including a hospital, a school, and a hostel for travelers."
http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple-ashkabad
> 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The Martyr).
No, Tovarish, your Days or Orwellian rewrites of History from
the Soviet Ministry of truth are over!
Under the Russians, the Bahai, as refugees from fierce persecution
in Persia, where 20,000 were martyred, were given protection by
Tsar Nicholas and allowed to build their temple. The Tsar's
military governor of Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich,
LAID THE FOUNDATION STONE..!!!!!!! B^D
..of the building which your Soviet Comrades expropriated
IN 1938!! B^p
"Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first
time anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established"
- see below
Your credibility is in tatters, your motivation as a malign traducer
of innocent people persecuted by a vicious Atheist Totalitarian regime
is revealed. You owe me, the Bahai, and the dead Russian Tsar and
his representatives an abject apology for your slander.
But I doubt a creature of your degree of moral defect will ever have the
the integrity to apologise.
What could be clearer than the experience of this tiny refugee community
of harmless believers, sheltered by a Christian, and persecuted by the
filthy Atheist Soviets, just like the backward and violent
fundamentalist Mullahs had done!!
Islamofascists and Soviet Atheists..
..Two sides of the same intolerant, false and oppressive coin! B^[
>> That atheist regime is gone, consigned to the dustbin of History for
>> totalitarian shitholes, and the Bahai faith has spread worldwide and
>> prospered.
>
> The atheist regime headed by a rampant Christian theist.
Liar.
“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
- Vladimir I. Lenin
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
- E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
There is no end to the FALSE DOGMA which BLIND and IRRATIONAL
Atheists cling to!!!
Atheists have not changed since the days of the Red Terror and
Pravda - "All The Lies that are unfit to Print"
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
- V.I. Lenin
---------
"In a previous chapter , the foundation of the Bahá'i
community in Ishqábád has been described.
Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established, with its
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
own schools, medical facilities, cemetery, etc. Eventually the Bahá'is
in 'Ishqábád decided to build the institution that Bahá'u'lláh has
ordained as the spiritual and social heart of the Baká'i community, d.
Mashriqu'l-Adhkár (Dawning Place of the Praises of God) (see fig. 45)
A Russian official who was in 'Ishqábád at this time, A. D. Kalmykov
(q.v.), has recorded in his memoirs:
This harmless, progressive, liberal sect was founded by the Bab,
who was shot in Tabriz in 1850, close to the wall of the citadel
at a place which I tried in vain to locate. The Babis were
persecuted in Persia in my time and had to conceal their faith;
I had never met them there. They came to Russia and even spread
to America, where they were called Baha'i.
The Babis in Ashkhabad formed a closely knit community of honest,
law-abiding people, somewhat reminiscent of the early Christian
churches in the first century after Christ. The great event in the
life of the Babi colony was the arrival of Hadji Mirza M.Taghi,*
a Babi chief, and nephew of Bab, from Yezd, Persia in 1902.
A rich, wise, kind old man of Biblical appearance and dressed in
floating Oriental garments, he looked like one of the Magi who came
to Bethlehem to adore the birth of Christ. Hadji MirzaM. Taghi had
been consular agent for Russia, England, and France in his native
town for many years. Although widely respected, he was finally
forced to leave by persecution which continuously increased in
violence. I had been informed beforehand about his arrival, and he
was warmly recommended to me by my friend and future
brother-in-law, Dr D. M. Vinogradov, who had visited him in Yezd.
After being welcomed with due reverence by all the Babi community
of Ashkhabad and meeting with a hospitable reception on the part
of the Russian authorities, Hadji Mirza M. Taghi decided to settle
in Ashkhabad and, as the crowning act of his long religious life,
to build there a beautiful Babi temple, the first on the continent
of Asia. He lived in a very simple manner but spared no money for
the completion of the temple or the cause of his religion.
I presented Hadji Mirza M. Taghi to military governor of
Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich, who agreed to lay the
corner-stone of the Babi temple. It was an impressive ceremony,
this Russian recognition of Babism as an established religion at a
moment when hundreds of Babis were being slaughtered in Persia.
The Bab community presented General Subotich with a picture by the
famous calligrapher Meshkin Kalam, representing a bird on a tree.
The picture was formed with the letters composing the verse,
'On the Tree of Eternity sits the Bird of Truth repeating:
"He (God) is one, is one, is one." '
Although the Babis in Ashkhabad kept the outward appearance of
old-fashioned Moslems, their conceptions were entirely different.
Babi women visited European families and enjoyed a freedom unknown
at that time in Moslem countries. The Babishad a small book called
Kitabi Siossieh (The Book of Behavior). They considered that each
man had a divine spark which must be kept pure during his lifetime
in order to ascend to heaven. The Babis in Ashkhabad presented
various stages of evolution, ranging from a purely Oriental to a
European way of life. However, they retained their Persian attire,
whereas in European Russia they wore western clothes. I was glad to
hear that after the revolution the persecution of Babis ceased in
Persia, and I have no doubt that they will prove to be excellent
Persian citizens. They are certainly good examples of what may
become of a Persian liberated from the suffocating atmosphere
of an old decaying past."
*Haji Mirza Muhammad-Taqi, the Afnan (q.v.,see fig.45)
http://lavezzo.com/Ashkabad/p442.html
Laying of the foundation stone by the Tsar's military governor of
Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich
http://lavezzo.com/Ashkabad/images/fig45.jpg
Construction of the temple:
fasgnadh
> On Nov 23, 1:19 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Richo wrote:
>>> On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One World
>>>>
>>>> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
This concept of the unity of mankind is the foundational
principle of a faith born in backwards, brutal, 19th Century Persia.
Proclaiming the emancipation of women as unstoppable, in a nation
where women were veiled, and still are, HALF A CENTURY BEFORE
the SUFFRAGETTES was astonishing.
Declaring the Oneness of humanity and outlining a New World
Order from a Prison in Akka, under the control of the corrupt Ottoman
Empire which such prophetic authority a century before Apollo missions
gave us the Full Disc Images of Earth that made everyone understand,
INTUITIVELY what had been ordained.. was even more astonishing.
Detailing the need for an inclusive gathering of the leadership
of nations to establish global governance and prevent war was
I Tell You Three Times.. this is no co-incidence! B^D
>>> I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
>>> 1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually
>>> kill or convert them all.
Prophecy from an Atheist, and what is it that will 'eventually happen?
Bahai's will be killed or converted because they are 'too nice'!?
Instead we see the principles of the Bahai faith being implemented
by the modern world even if they are unaware of the author! B^D
Persecution has not impeded the faith.. it has PROPELLED IT! B^D
Well, The Soviets expropriated their Temple and persecuted them,
but the Soviets are dust and the Bahai are prospering, having grown
much faster than earlier faiths and already having significant social,
cultural and philosophical impact.
I see no evidence of YOUR prophecy being fulfilled,
though it follows the conventional 'wisdom' than might
wins out.. but plenty that theirs, SO SEEMINGLY UNLIKELY
AT THE TIME IS OCCURRING! They have already built a prototype
democratic, nascent global administration of diverse nationalities,
ethnicities and faiths.
Persia, in the early times, was the place they might have been crushed,
But like the Jews before the Might of Egypt, and the Christians before
the Might of Rome.. they face a Paper Tiger, rotting from within.
It's economy is crumbling before your eyes, and the Bahai concept that
Global problems require UNITED GLOBAL ACTION is now on every financiers
lips! The Market is crying out that Faith and Hope are what is
missing.. the acolytes of Moloch, the Golden Calf are wailing about
the loss of Faith and Hope! B^D
>> Like the Christians, vastly outnumbered, were wiped out within
>> two centuries of Christ's crucifixion? ;-)
>>
> Many religions have arisen and gone extinct.
The nine world religions faced superior military and political
might but endured! B^D
So, in fact the Mighty Roman Empire did not 'Kill or convert'
all the Christians, it was the OTHER WAY AROUND!!!
The Christians, with nothing but a BETTER IDEA, converted
the Roman's who had crucified Christ.. and they became his
most passionate followers.. and formed the Holy Roman Empire! B^D
history just doesn't support your nonsense, does it!!?!!!!
> Christianity won the lottery
Typical atheist misdirection.. it won the battle of ideas!
> when it became the official religion of
> the Roman Empire -
completely the reverse of your claim above that "The
Meek will not inherit the Earth!"
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
Backflip with a half-twist in just a few lines! BRAVO! B^D
> history could have easily taken a different turn.
according to you it should have.. your judgement just isn't
very good.. EVEN IN RETROSPECT!!
The outcome was the OPPOSITE of you claims the harmless believers
would be wiped out or converted.... THEY DID THE CONVERTING!!!!
What incredible POWER their ideas had! It's a MIRACLE!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!
> Don't confuse chaos with destiny.
Clearly the Chaos you predict is not destiny! B^)
>> Do you really understand so little about the dynamics of faith, Richo?
>>
> I understand more than some, less than others. A bit like my knowledge
> of butterflies.
>
>> Death won't stop them and the the fear of it doesn't convert them:
>>
> I am sure the Norsemen felt the same about Thor and Freya.
>
Just two day names now, nothing like 3 billion monotheists
and their great and enduring civilisations!
>> 20,000 Babi's were wiped out in Persia.
>>
> I know - it is a terrible history.
Not as terrible as the Atheist Soviet terror and genocide.
>> Bahai's have still been tortured and killed, in Iran,
>> but nothing can extinguish their faith...
>>
>
> Not yet.
They have already outlasted the Soviet Atheist regime! B^)
Bad ideas don't endure.
Good organising principles do.
Your view of History is inevitability and lottery, completely
contradictory nonsense!
Their idea is actively building a brilliant design.
No wonder religions triumph!
> After all the persecution by the believers in "the one true God" isn't
> it peculiar that people don't begin to suspect that there is
> something.... unhealthy in the idea of "the one true God"?
You have accurately described mankind's judgement on
40,000,000 dead from Soviet and Maoist Atheism, with
nothing of value in return, but clearly can't see that
religion offers principles for effective social
organisation, easily outweighing some warts, and all.
> You are right about me - I don't understand faith.
It's not faith that makes people take up faith, it's
SEEING IT WORKS, that gives them faith.
> Mark.
>
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh, you are a disgrace to the Faith you claim to defend.
For being 'rude' about murderous totalitarian Atheist regimes
and those who defend them!???
You criticise me, but not them?
Show me your posts attacking and condemning THEM for 40,000,000
dead ..before you dare castigate me for 'being impolite'!!!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAAAA
How can I be a 'disgrace to women' simply by defending them
from misogynists, perverts and rapists, IF I AM NOT A WOMAN!!!? B^)
fasgnadh is a Pagan celtic word - 'the winnower'.
I sort the wheat from the chaff! B^)
I have said FROM THE OUTSET
# I made clear when I arrived, that I have no claims
# to make, and thus no turf to defend..
#
# "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
# who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
# he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."
Defending the voiceless and the persecuted believers
does not mean I am one of them!!!
I HAVE been the Advocatus Diaboli for religion against the Atheists,
using their standard as mine for this action!
Why is that 'a disgrace'? I frankly admit there are many religious
more admirable than myself, and I thank you for helping point out
that their standards are way above those of the Atheists!!!! B^D
Are you a Bahai coming here to tell me I cannot speak out,
on behalf of NO ONE BUT MYSELF, to condemn TYRANNY and Hypocrisy?
I defend Christians persecuted by Soviet Atheists, but I'm not a
Christian, I don't turn the other cheek.
"nemo me impune lacessit!" - Voltaire and me! B^D
I defend Muslims, living peacefully in Australia, but stereotyped
by bigots as all being Collectively Responsible for the acts of
a tiny minority of islamofascists.. but I'm not a Muslim
I defend Jews from the slanders of Nazis, but I'm not a Jew.
All of these things can be confirmed readily from the google archives.
As can my love of politics, involvement in which is forbidden
by the Bahai!
Why should I have to make the sign of the cross, give up beer,
not eat pork and stop having political opinions
BEFORE YOU THINK I AM ALLOWED TO DEFEND THEM AGAINST ATHEIST LIES!!!!
B^D
You HYPOCRITES are amazing!!! You think because I choose not
to wear a Yamulka I cannot defend Jews from Nazi shitpigs???
You think because I have lacerated the Pope for increasing
the rate of HIV infection in Africa by the absurd ban on condoms
I cannot defend Jesus from rude and ignorant Atheist adolescents?
You think because I was posting condemnations of the Taliban
YEARS BEFORE the WTC and the invasion of Afghanistan, that I cannot
appreciate the glory of the Islamic civilization.
You think because I personally choose to have my say on any and
every political issue from the desolate failure of the Bush
Administration and it's invasion of TexIraq to the Chinese
persecution of the Tibetans that I cannot defend the Bahai
from the depredations of the Soviet Atheists and their MODERN
TOVARISH!!!!!
And you seriously suggest if I mount a spirited defence of
ALL THESE, religious and political and cultural victims
of prejudice and irrational actions, and wipe the floor
with these Atheist Bastets .. in a 20:1 battle of wits
where all 20 of them are unarmed.. that means I must
**BE** each of those that I defend!!
And so.. I have been called a Muslim, a Christian, A Communist,
a Nazi, a Bahai, A Jew, ... and that has occurred, in this
NG, without EVER a single profession of personal faith by me!!!
B^D
What I have REPEATEDLY TOLD YOU ALL, which all of you have
chosen to ignore, is that I offer no 'proof of God' the standard
atheist battleground, because no logical resolution is possible!
.. I have repeated that I could indeed just be a REAL atheist,
ANNOYED by all of the FUNDAMENTALIST WANKERS in A.A. who give
atheism a bad name: 8^o
# "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
# who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
# he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."
#
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:13:20 +1100
# Subject: Re: What IS the 'probability' of God existing?
# How is it calculated?
# Re: London: 'Buses carry atheist message'
# Message-ID: <49074836$0$18424$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
# I made clear when I arrived, that I have no claims
# to make, and thus no turf to defend..
#
# "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
# who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
# he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."
#
# Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:28:28 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion,aus.culture.true-blue,
# aus.religion
# Subject: But if there is no Wall.....
# Re: More splits in Atheism as the rift over Atheist Dogma widens!
# Message-ID: <490fa53d$0$4454$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
I said it again and again
Message-ID: <490d323f$0$18425$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <490e559d$0$4448$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <490e977d$0$18430$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49294d87$0$31806$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49105c22$0$28216$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
...and STILL you ignorant fools
insist on projecting onto my BLANK RATIONAL CANVAS,
whatever stereotype, strawman, icon or effigy of RELIGION
which YOU have constructed in your heads! Lies, falsehoods,
fantasies and delusions. ' MAYA' in Buddhism 'The World of illusion'
Oh God.. now I'm a Buddhist again.. except I said 'God'! B^D
> In a tablet to Mirza Abu’l-Fadl, starting at
> http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/SWA4/swa4-235.html,
> Abdu’l-Baha sets the standard:
For Bahai's! B^)
Why do atheist HYPOCRITE's who REFUSE to even
accept that there IS A STANDARD,
insist it applies to me and not to them!
The same standard is SET IN EVERY RELIGION;
# "And argue not with the People of the Scripture
# unless it be in ( a way) that is better,
# save with such of them as do wrong;
# and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us
# and revealed unto you;
# our God and your God is One,
# and unto Him we surrender."
#
# - The Qu'ran Sura 29 verse 46
I argue the ATHEIST way, because that is what you understand! B^)
And the Atheists are now telling me that the Bahai way
is a BETTER WAY!! And I, but not them, must follow it!!!!!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAAA
I agree with you.. these people have the highest standards,
so high that Atheists joke that they cannot survive and will
be 'wiped out' ..
And yet.. the MIGHT OF THE SOVIET ATHEIST REGIME IS DUST,
and these gentle souls prosper:
It's a miracle! B^D
> “I adjure you by the Ancient Beauty not to insult anyone or wish
> humiliation on any soul. ...
> “Do not argue with anyone nor engage in disputation. Do not wish
> any person’s degradation, nor mention their name in fault. Do not seek
> anybody’s loss and do not loosen your tongue to an unkind description
> of any man. ... "(draft translation by Ahang Rabbani)
>
> In the long term, the interests of the Faith, and of humanity, will be
> served by living up to this standard.
>
You know.. they may just be right!
Thanks for posting that!
I will go away now and consider becoming more like those Bahai,
it's not easy, the Atheist Bastets mock kindness and compassion
as weakness, and I find myself unable to stand by in the face of
such wickedness.
Do you think it wrong of me to protect Lambs from wolves?
Should I be more considerate of the feelings of the vicious predators
who throughout history have tortured, terrorized, persecuted and killed
the religious, and 40,000,000 others.. is it an insult to call an
totalitarian Atheist regime an Totalitarian Atheist regime, and the
Atheist Bastets who defend it, Atheist Bastets, even though they
proclaim that's what they are?
> Now, lets try to inject a little rationality into the discussion.
> 1) It is true that all the states which have been officially atheist
> have been totalitarian regimes, and usually brutal: North Korea, the
> USSR especially under Stalin, Albania under Enver Hoxha, Cambodia
> under the Khmer Rouge, China especially under Mao.
And that is ALL the atheist regimes... 100% of Atheist governments
are brutal totalitarian regimes.
Whereas most religious societies are not.
Now I have to thank you from the depth of my heart for being
the first Atheist to ADMIT that truth, and the obvious conclusion
that, in the main, religion produces great and enduring civilisations
and Atheism produces savage totalitarian shitholes.
Have we 'insulted anyone' by speaking the simple truth???
I can't see how.
>
> Abdu'l-Baha writes:
>
> " [To insure] freedom of conscience and tranquility of heart and soul
> is one of the duties and functions of government, and is in all ages
> the cause of progress in development and ascendency over other lands.
> Other civilized countries acquired not this preeminence, nor attained
> unto these high degrees of influence and power, till such time as they
> put away the strife of sects out of their midst, and dealt with all
> classes according to one standard. All are one people, one nation, one
> species, one kind."
> (Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 87)
I agree entirely with you, and have many times criticised sectarian
conflict;
Catholics vrs Protestants, Sunni vrs Shia, Palestinians and Israeli's
(although Jews and Arabs have lived in peace so that is more political
than religious) .. but the undeniable fact is that the overwhelming
suffering of TENS OF MILLIONS in the USSR, Maoist China, Pol Pots
Year Zero.. are the ATHEIST REGIMES!!!!
Far far more deadly than a few thousand witches burned, way back in
the medieval era!!!!!
This is MODERN ATHEISM indicted on massive Crimes against Humanity, far
worse than the abuses of ignorant savages!
The fatal flaw in the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression is that,
as Nietzsche foresaw, with the removal of the concept of God is
Watching, there would be NO RESTRAINT.. and that is the history
of the 20th Century.. the one immediately following the declaration
"God is Dead.. in the hearts of mankind"
> He goes on, over several pages, to give examples of countries that
> suffered when their governments interfered in matters of conscience,
> and contrasts this to the progress of European states once they had
> established the principle of freedom of conscience (this was written
> circa 1886).
Before the horrors of Soviet Atheism, then.
So, how do you argue it is relevant???
“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
-Vladimir I. Lenin
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
- V.I. Lenin
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
- E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
“There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience.
A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.”
- V.I. Lenin
“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen. WE FIGHT
AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
- Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper
“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” - early Soviet slogan
fasgnadh
>
> fasgnadh wrote:
>>
>> Kelsey Bjarnason, Atheist LIAR, Making Pravda proud;
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Who were the nicest, a handful of Bahai refugees who built a Temple in
>>>> remote, or the Atheist tyranny which stole it, defiled it and
>>>> persecuted the believers?
>>>
>> Modern Atheists demonstrate that the links between them and
>> the Atheist propagandists and Red Terror of the Soviet Union
>> remain strong;
>>
>>> I assume you mean the temple in Ashkhabad, Russia. Confiscated in
>>> 1910. Hmm. 1910. Hmm.
>>
>> You are not dealing with ancient texts of unknown authenticity here,
>> Comrade Bjarnyard, this is HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT, that your lies
>> cannot eradicate:
>>
>> "Baha'i House of Worship - Ashkabad, Central Asia
>>
>> House of Worship in Ashkabad Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House
>> of Worship served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
>> the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government. The building was
>> demolished in 1962 after being damaged by an earthquake.
>>
>> The Ashkhabad House of Worship was in many ways ahead of its time. In
>> addition to serving as a spiritual center for the thriving Bahá'í
>> community in that region, it gave practical expression to the
>> community's humanitarian ideas. Attached to it were a number of
>> subsidiaries, including a hospital, a school, and a hostel for travelers."
>>
>> http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple-ashkabad
>>
>>
>> > 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The Martyr).
>>
>> No, Tovarish, your Days or Orwellian rewrites of History from
>> the Soviet Ministry of truth are over!
>>
>
You filthy Atheist liars ARE Crackers! B^)
Mad as a..
> Hatter
>> Under the Russians, the Bahai, as refugees from fierce persecution
>> in Persia, where 20,000 were martyred, were given protection by
>> Tsar Nicholas and allowed to build their temple. The Tsar's
>> military governor of Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich,
>> LAID THE FOUNDATION STONE..!!!!!!! B^D
>> ..of the building which your Soviet Comrades expropriated
>>
>> IN 1938!! B^p
>>
>>
>> "Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
>> the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first
>> time anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established"
>> - see below
>>
The facts of History have shown what MALIGN liars Atheists are,
even when they are PROVEN to be fabricating events, their
morally defective Comrades continue the Pravda Line of Lies,
character assassinations, slander and False Witness.
They have no core.. they are empty shells mouthing falsehood
Richo
On Nov 27, 7:59 am, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Bad ideas don't endure.
>
Sadly not true.
Monotheism sexism racism.
All thousands of years old and still going strong.
By the way...
Are you going to apologise publicly for the lies you told about me?
Or is honour not something you feel the need to demonstrate?
I am prepared to forgive you and put it behind us if you show
repentance.
Mark.
Kelsey Bjarnason
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 01:14:53 +1100, fasgnadh wrote:
> Kelsey Bjarnason, Atheist LIAR, Making Pravda proud;
>> I assume you mean the temple in Ashkhabad, Russia. Confiscated in
>> 1910. Hmm. 1910. Hmm.
> You are not dealing with ancient texts of unknown authenticity here,
> Comrade Bjarnyard, this is HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT, that your lies
> cannot eradicate:
Here's a hint, numbnuts: *I* posted the data about the temple.
> > 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The Martyr).
>
> No, Tovarish, your Days or Orwellian rewrites of History from the Soviet
> Ministry of truth are over!
Here's a hint, numbnuts: the temple was taken over *twice* and you
failed, completely, to define which time you referred to. I at least
pointed out there were *two* incidents.
> Your credibility is in tatters
Because I don't resort to sad little word games the way you do? Sorry,
you'll have to do better than that.
Governor Swill
>Prophecy from an Atheist, and what is it that will 'eventually happen?
>
>Bahai's will be killed or converted because they are 'too nice'!?
>
>Instead we see the principles of the Bahai faith being implemented
>by the modern world even if they are unaware of the author! B^D
>
>Persecution has not impeded the faith.. it has PROPELLED IT! B^D
>
>Well, The Soviets expropriated their Temple and persecuted them,
>but the Soviets are dust and the Bahai are prospering, having grown
>much faster than earlier faiths and already having significant social,
>cultural and philosophical impact.
Bahai is not the source of the world's current movement towards
globalism and equalization. That stems from the development and
construction of nuclear weapons.
Swill
Cary Kittrell
"The Beast with Two Backs"? Is this some sort of knock-off
homebrew eschatological imagery?
"The beast with two backs" is of course, an old euphemism
for two people fucking. Missionary style.
It was my assumption that you were trying to associate
atheism with the fiery blood-drenched monsters who
bestride the world of the end times. But if I'm
mistaken, and you were intending to make a connection
between atheism and sex, well, I can live with that.
Most atheists I know quite like sex.
-- cary
fasg...@yahoo.com
> On Nov 27, 1:14 am, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Kelsey Bjarnason, Atheist LIAR, Making Pravda proud;
>>
>> >> remote, or the Atheist tyranny which stole it, defiled it and
>> >> persecuted the believers?
>>
>> Modern Atheists demonstrate that the links between them and
>> the Atheist propagandists and Red Terror of the Soviet Union
>> remain strong;
>>
>>> Hmm. 1910. Hmm.
You have never been able to provide any evidence if this assertion.
Where is it?
>> You are not dealing with ancient texts of unknown authenticity here,
>> Comrade Bjarnyard, this is HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT, that your lies
>> cannot eradicate:
>>
>> "Baha'i House of Worship - Ashkabad, Central Asia
>>
>> House of Worship in Ashkabad Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House
>> of Worship served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
>> the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government. The building was
>> demolished in 1962 after being damaged by an earthquake.
>>
The Bahai are clear. their temple served the Bahai community for
worship from
it's completion in 1908, "until 1938, when the site was appropriated
by the
Soviet Government."
That is, expropriated by the Atheist Communists;
"The Soviet Union was an atheist state"
"the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
- Daniel Peris,
"Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853
"Criticism of atheism was strictly forbidden"
"Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested.
In 1918, the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky executed over
3000 Orthodox clergymen of all ranks.
Some were drowned in ice-holes or poured over with cold water
in winter until they turned to ice-pillars.
In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian
concentration camp was established in the Solovki Islands in the White
Sea"
John Shelton Curtis, The Russian Church and the Soviet State
(Boston: Little Brown, 1953)
Jane Ellis, The Russian Orthodox Church: A Contemporary History
(Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1986)
Dimitry V. Pospielovsky, The Russian Church Under the Soviet Regime
1917-1982 (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1984)
idem., A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious
Policies (New York; St. Martin’s Press, 1987)
Glennys Young, Power and the Sacred in Revolutionary Russia: Religious
Activists in the Village (University Park: Pennsylvania State
University
Press, 1997)
Daniel Peris, Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant
Godless (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1998)
William B. Husband, “Godless Communists”: Atheism and Society in
Soviet
Russia (DeKalb: Northern Illinois University Press, 2000
Edward Roslof, Red Priests: Renovationism, Russian Orthodoxy, and
Revolution, 1905-1946 (Bloomington, Indiana, 2002)
“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
-Vladimir I. Lenin
But it was not just the Atheism of the leadership,
but of the entire State apparatus;
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
- V.I. Lenin
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
- E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
The Atheist leadership's policies were implemented under
the red Terror, via gulags and executions, the use of
every arm of the state for anti-religious propaganda
and the forced indoctrination of CHILDREN! B^[
“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen.
WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
-Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper
“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)
Now we see how Atheists maintain their Non-Belief.. they SIMPLY
IGNORE THE FACTS!!!! B^D
>> The Ashkhabad House of Worship was in many ways ahead of its time. In
>> addition to serving as a spiritual center for the thriving Bahá'í
>> community in that region, it gave practical expression to the
>> community's humanitarian ideas. Attached to it were a number of
>> subsidiaries, including a hospital, a school, and a hostel for travelers."
>>
>> http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple-ashkabad
>>
>> > 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The Martyr).
>>
>> No, Tovarish, your Days or Orwellian rewrites of History from
>> the Soviet Ministry of truth are over!
>>
>> Under the Russians, the Bahai, as refugees from fierce persecution
>> in Persia, where 20,000 were martyred, were given protection by
>> Tsar Nicholas and allowed to build their temple. The Tsar's
>> military governor of Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich,
>> LAID THE FOUNDATION STONE..!!!!!!! B^D
>> ..of the building which your Soviet Comrades expropriated
>>
>> IN 1938!! B^p
>>
>> "Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
>> the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first
>> time anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established"
>> - see below
>
> Here's a hint, numbnuts:
When the Atheists only argument is abuse you know they have
lost the argument
> the temple was taken over *twice*
I have provided evidence, from those whose temple was expropriated,
by the Atheistic Communists whose barbarity you are defending,
in *1938*. You have provided no evidence whatsoever for your
assertion
the temple was previously taken over in 1910, which flies in the face
of
the Bahai account that their temple served their community from 1908
till
1938. B^)
Perhaps they didn't notice their temple being expropriated!?!! B^D
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA
Perhaps you are just another Pravda Propagandist spinning lies. B6]
> and you failed, completely, to define which time you referred to.
You can't read dates? B^D 1938
# " Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House of Worship
# served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
# the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government."
> I at least pointed out there were *two* incidents.
No, you CLAIMED ther was another incident, one the Bahai's
don't seem to have experienced.. and you have never provided a SINGLE
citation in evidence... More of Atheists asking us to BELIEVE,
without
a shred of RATIONAl PROOF!?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
Perhaps some 'events' Kelsey thinks are real exist only in his head..
mere Beliefs which he can't prove. {snicker}
> > Your credibility is in tatters
>
> Because I don't resort to sad little word games the way you do?
All I did was post the facts.
As provided by the people whose temple, THEY SAY, was
appropriated by the Atheistic Soviets in 1938, just as your Atheist
Comrades killed priests and expropriated Churches.
>> ...............your motivation as a malign traducer
>> of innocent people persecuted by a vicious Atheist Totalitarian regime
>> is revealed. You owe me, the Bahai, and the dead Russian Tsar and
>> his representatives an abject apology for your slander.
>>
No Proof of Kelsey's claim and no apology...
just as we have come to expect from Atheists..
>> But I doubt a creature of your degree of moral defect will ever have the
>> the integrity to apologise.
I am clearly an excellent judge of the character of Atheists such as
Kelsey.
The truth is compelling:
>> What could be clearer than the experience of this tiny refugee community
>> of harmless believers, sheltered by a Christian, and persecuted by the
>> filthy Atheist Soviets, just like the backward and violent
>> fundamentalist Mullahs had done!!
>>
>> Islamofascists and Soviet Atheists..
>> ..Two sides of the same intolerant, false and oppressive coin! B^[
>>
>> >> That atheist regime is gone, consigned to the dustbin of History for
>> >> totalitarian shitholes, and the Bahai faith has spread worldwide and
>> >> prospered.
>>
>>> The atheist regime headed by a rampant Christian theist.
>>
>> Liar.
Lenin was not a Christian. You could not be a Party Member
unless you were an ATHEIST!!!
Lenin and Stalin made it absolutely clear they were Atheists,
leading an explicitly, officially and in practice, ATHEIST regime;
>> “Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
>> - Vladimir I. Lenin
>>
>> "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
>> all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
>> - E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
>> Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
>>
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
- V.I. Lenin
But it was not just the Atheism of the leadership,
but of the entire State apparatus;
“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen.
WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
(Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper)
“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)
“The World has never before known a godlessness as organized,
militarized and tenaciously malevolent as that preached by Marxism.
Within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart
of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force,
more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions.
Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist
policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve
its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid
of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction
of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of these objectives
openly, and just as openly put them into practice.”
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
>> There is no end to the FALSE DOGMA which BLIND and IRRATIONAL
And yet 70 years later, the Atheists who expropriated the temple
whose builders had been praised effusively by the Tzarist Military
Governor
are perpetuating the abuse of that harmless and persecuted religion.!
What a disgrace you are, Kelsey!! !
fasg...@yahoo.com
> "fasgnadh" <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:492e6739$0$4453$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> > Seon Ferguson wrote:
>
> >> "fasgnadh" <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:492e4711$0$4450$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >>> Seon Ferguson wrote:
>
> >>> History says, "clearly not"!
>
> >>> That's like saying Nazis are just people who believe in National
> >>> Socialism.. but sometimes they murder millions...
> >>> or Marxists are merely people who believe
> >>> in the theories of Marx.. But Lenin, Stalin and Mao
> >>> show the world *Atheist Communists* of extreme brutality,
> >>> And Lenin himself proclaims how central Atheism was to the
> >>> Soviet pogroms, persecutions, pillage and propaganda!
>
> >>> Some Atheists may just be ineffectual navel gazers, just as some
> >>> Marxists are pope smoking academics with leather elbow patches..
> >>> But some Atheist Communists, such as the Soviet State, the Maoist regime
> >>> Pol Pot's and Nth Korea.. were savage totalitarian autocrats..
> >>> who committed crimes against humanity far worse than those committed by
> >>> the Medieval priests of the Inquisition and the Crusaders!
>
> >>> That's FOUR OUT OF FOUR and 100% of Atheist regimes that were
> >>> COMPLETE, GENOCIDAL DISASTERS!!!!
> >>> An INDEFENSIBLE record of torture, terror, gulags and murder.
>
> >>> And they all ran totalitarian regimes which persecuted believers!!!
>
> >>> It's NO CO-ONCIDENCE that modern day atheists are DEFENDING THEM!
>
> >>> You can't ignore the facts, Seon.
>
> >>> > It's their choice
>
> >>> Just like it's believers choice to just be people who believe in God,
>
> >>> And yet, in all the time I have been posting challenges to the
> >>> sloganeering, empty rhetoric, hypocrisy and abuse by Atheists
> >>> NOT ON OF THEM HAS EVER OBJECTED WHEN ATHEISTS REFER TO BELIEVERS,
> >>> WITHOUT DISTINCTION, AS 'superstitious savages' 'medieval morons'
> >>> and worse.
>
> >>> Atheists have consistently judged ALL Christians by the actions
> >>> of a few.. Millions of gentle, peaceful Christians, Muslims,
> >>> Bahais are routinely slandered in the Hate-fest of Atheist bile and
> >>> abuse... where those innocent believers are tainted with the crimes
> >>> of a tiny minority of corrupt clerics who committed egregious crimes..
>
> >>> And yet now the Atheists squeal like stuck pigs when it is
> >>> revealed that EVERY atheist regime committed egregious crimes!! 8^o
>
> >>>>>> Let us hope that people can turn away from the path of hatred and
> >>>>>> violence whatever their level of superstitious belief.
>
> >>> warm fluffy 'belief' that 'something doesn't exist', when History
> >>> shows it is REPEATEDLY the distinguishing feature of tyranny!
>
> >>>>>> Mark.
>
> >>>>> “The World has never before known a godlessness as organized,
> >>>>> militarized and tenaciously malevolent as that preached by Marxism.
> >>>>> Within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart
> >>>>> of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force,
> >>>>> more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions.
> >>>>> Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist
> >>>>> policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve
> >>>>> its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid
> >>>>> of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction
> >>>>> of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of these objectives
> >>>>> openly, and just as openly put them into practice.”
> >>>>> (Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
>
>
> >>> Except in EVERY ONE OF THE KNOWN HISTORICAL ATHEIST REGIMES!!
>
> >>> LED BY and RUN BY Atheist Commies, assisted by Commie Atheists!
>
> >>> How easy for you to gloss over the horror, you weren't in
> >>> a gulag like Solzhenitsyn!
>
> >>> But you just keep emoting and ignoring and snipping ALL the facts! B^p
>
> >>> > and making Deists like me look stupid.
>
> >>> Ignoring FORTY MILLION DEAD AT THE HANDS OT ATHEIST COMMUNIST REGIMES
>
> >>> might do that! B^p
>
> >> Name one Atheist who supports the action of the murderous dictator
> >> Stalin.
>
> > Beria.
>
> > Too easy.
>
> > Mao
>
> > Mark, Hatter, Kelsey.. (he thinks the Facial Hair made
> > them psychopaths ;-)
>
> > You don't think very clearly.
>
> >> I know some Bahais and not all bahai's are as ilogical as you.
>
> > I know some Bahai's too, some are less logical than me. Your Point?
>
No answer?
> > You still don't get it: because I quote or defend Muslims, you think
> > I'm a Muslim?
>
> > Because I quote or defend the persecuted Bahai, you think I am a Bahai?
>
> I never said you were a Bahai
"I know some Bahais and not all bahai's are as ilogical as you." -
Seon
> and incase you missed it I posted a article on
> Bahai persecution a while back and got attacked by this bigot. My point was
> bahai's I know do not think Atheists are Communists.
My point was that all the ruling Communist Party members in
the USSR WERE ATHEISTS and COMMUNISTS.. you couldn't
be a party member unless you were, and you couldn't rule the
Atheist shithole USSR unless you were a Communist Party MEMBER!
> they are encouraged to
> make friends with members of other faiths or non faiths.
As I do, but what has that got to do with condemning the
gross abuses of OPENLY ATHEIST REGIMES when they have
tortured and killed 40,000,000 people! 8^o
Or with the Atheist moral defectives who defend them and attack me!?
> And I meant name a
> Atheist who posts to aus.politics
Why should the sample of atheists guilty of Human Rights abuses
be so reduced and constricted?
> who supports that brutal dictator or at
> least a common every day Atheist.
I already did;
# > Name one Atheist who supports the action of the murderous dictator
#
# Stalin.
#
# Beria.
#
# Too easy.
#
# Mao
#>
# Mark, Hatter, Kelsey.. (he thinks the Facial Hair made
# them psychopaths ;-)
> Oh and remember that poem? When they came for the Atheists I said nothing...
> then they came for me and I had no one to fight for me.
That's simply wrong!
The poem you refer to is Pastor Neimoller and it refers to the Nazi's
not the Atheistic Communist thugs and murderers of the USSR!
But it is interesting that you equate Atheists with Communists,
who are mentioned in the first line; (Atheists try and deny the link)
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."
- Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
fasg...@yahoo.com
Atheism and Communism.. no wonder you can't understand
religious texts, you seem incapable of dealing with Metaphor.
> Is this some sort of knock-off
> homebrew eschatological imagery?
>
It certainly grabbbed your dim-witted attention. B^)
> "The beast with two backs" is of course, an old euphemism
> for two people fucking. Missionary style.
>
Which is exactly what the Atheist/Communists did to the USSR
and China, Cambodia under Pol Pot and Nth Korea.
> It was my assumption that you were trying to associate
> atheism with the fiery blood-drenched monsters who
> bestride the world of the end times.
'End Times'? "Fiery blood-drenched monsters who bestride the
world"?? what are you talking about??
I have read some of the obscurantist Atheist Cathecism which
refers to wizards and zombies, are you part of this Atheist cult;
# Subject: aa - The Polls are Open! AQOTM for Nov 2008
# Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:10:11 -0500
# From: *nemo* <nemo...@earthlink.diespam.com>
# Message-ID: <aKedndoPx4epAbPU...@earthlink.com>
#
# 1) The universe is ruled by a wizard, a zombie, and a ghost.
# Only the ghost is with us now, even though
# the zombie shacks up in our gall bladders and the wizard
# is omnipresent. You'll want to stay on the wizard's good
# side, because he has this thing for the aroma of
# flame-broiled human flesh. Oh, and this ripple and
# this Wheat Thin will turn into chunks of the zombie
# if a designated wizard's apprentice casts a spell on them.
# Thus enchanted, the cracker can be used to reveal the
# true demonic nature of Jews, much as a garlic pizza
# could out vampires (if we believed in such things,
# which we don't cuz that would be silly, dontcha know).
# We know these things to be true despite having not
# one damn reason to believe any of them.
#
# Authior By: DuhIdiot (Atheist )
# Nominated: Christopher A Lee (Atheist )
# Seconded: AZ Nomad (Atheist )
#
# Supported by the following card-carrying
# atheists:
#
# DuhIdiot (Atheist )
# Christopher A Lee (Atheist )
# AZ Nomad (Atheist )
# Robibnikoff (Atheist )
# Kilmir (Atheist )
# Smiler (Atheist )
# Douglas Berry (Atheist )
# pbamvv (Atheist )
# Uncle Vic (Atheist )
# johac (Atheist )
# Louis 14 (Atheist )
# Frank Mayhar (Atheist )
# Tim McGauchy (Atheist )
# Vipera Berus (Atheist )
> But if I'm
> mistaken, and you were intending to make a connection
> between atheism and sex,
Sex with a beast?
> well, I can live with that.
If you own a pet I will have to call the RSPCA.
> Most atheists I know quite like sex.
How do you know, are you an atheist slut?
> -- cary
>
>
>
James
>Re: One World
Mark,
First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone. They follow their
leader Jesus who said at Mt 5:44 to "love your enemies and pray for
those who persecute you,". Thus if you see a professed Christian using
war weapons to kill another person, they cannot be Jesus real
followers.
Also, Jesus agrees with you that the true religion can have a dividing
effect on people. (Mt 10:35,36) That is because many people do not
want to follow God's laws, but rather want to follow their own way,
thus they are perplexed by those who really do obey God's commands. As
one of God's servants wrote:
"Of course, your former friends will be very surprised when you don't
eagerly join them any more in the wicked things they do, and they will
laugh at you in contempt and scorn." (1 Pe 4:4)
Sincerely, James
If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I do
not follow all conversations in ng threads
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses Questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
gsw...@gmail.com
> >Richo wrote
> >>On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh wrote:
> >> One World
>
> >>http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo
>
> >I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
> >1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually kill or convert them all.
> >2) They still suffer the fault of being a monotheism - some very
> >strong moral people seem able to resist its corrupting influence and >remain good people - but for humanity in general in the end its
> >poisonous to morality, antithetical to wisdom and an excuse for being mean and callous to "the others".
>
> >"God" is just a very bad idea - and is not a uniting one but a
> >divisive force.
>
say 'men' rather than 'men and women' becase it has been the men
throughout history who have been the religious leaders of both the
true religion and untrue religions.
>
> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone. They follow their leader Jesus who said at Mt 5:44 to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,". Thus if you see a professed Christian using war weapons to kill another person, they cannot be Jesus real followers.
>
objector is not prepared to 'pull his/her weight'.
I found an Internet article of such a young person in America, who
when called-up for war-service debated in his mind what he should do.
Reading the verse, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars'
and render unto God the things that are God's." Luke 20 - 25,
he enlisted and eventually became the highest decorated soldier in
France. (Internet website)
Even those involved in non-combatant duties support those at 'the
front-line'. As a teenager during World War II I was what I now call
myself a member of the Australia's Unofficial Children's Land Army, as
my father medically rejected from Army service and at the older age
for such service was called upon with all other such farmers to
produce the extra food needed for those in the services.
> Also, Jesus agrees with you that the true religion can have a dividing effect on people. (Mt 10:35,36) That is because many people do not want to follow God's laws, but rather want to follow their own way, thus they are perplexed by those who really do obey God's commands. As one of God's servants wrote:
>
> "Of course, your former friends will be very surprised when you don't eagerly join them any more in the wicked things they do, and they will laugh at you in contempt and scorn." (1 Pe 4:4)
>
Unfortunately as men have interpreted the Biblical scriptures
differently and/or have added doctrines not originally intended and
convinced others with lesser understandings that they were right there
have come to be divisions within the Christian faith.
The Ecumenical Movement, as I have read about it, has been promoted by
the Roman Catholic Church since 1965 (from Vatican II) because it
wants to impose its teachings on all Christendom and to rule the world
both theologically and politically.
Gladys Swager
Mark K Bilbo
> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
I hear bagpipes!
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“In this world of sin and sorrow there is always
something to be thankful for; as for me,
I rejoice that I am not a Republican.”
- H. L. Mencken
Robibnikoff
"Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:70lnl3F...@mid.individual.net...
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:23:50 -0500, James wrote:
>
>> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
>
> I hear bagpipes!
Sorry, I have terrible gas today.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Christopher A. Lee
<witc...@broomstick.com> wrote:
>
>"Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
>news:70lnl3F...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:23:50 -0500, James wrote:
>>
>>> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
>>
>> I hear bagpipes!
>
>Sorry, I have terrible gas today.
All Hail Grunthos.
--
Agent 5 users can filter 90% of Usenet spam using
message-id: {google}
Mark K Bilbo
> "Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
> news:70lnl3F...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:23:50 -0500, James wrote:
>>
>>> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
>>
>> I hear bagpipes!
>
> Sorry, I have terrible gas today.
Lucky!
Okay boy, ready, aim....
Robibnikoff
"Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:34:06 -0500, Robibnikoff wrote:
>
>> "Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
>> news:70lnl3F...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:23:50 -0500, James wrote:
>>>
>>>> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
>>>
>>> I hear bagpipes!
>>
>> Sorry, I have terrible gas today.
>
> Lucky!
No, not at all.
>
> Okay boy, ready, aim....
Hey! Wait! Arrrrrgh!!!
Alex W.
> "Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
> news:70mg7cF...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:34:06 -0500, Robibnikoff wrote:
>>
>>> "Mark K Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
>>> news:70lnl3F...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:23:50 -0500, James wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First of all, genuine Christians don't kill anyone.
>>>>
>>>> I hear bagpipes!
>>>
>>> Sorry, I have terrible gas today.
>>
>> Lucky!
>
> No, not at all.
Why not?
Have you lost your lighter?