No God in my world
Stephen M. Smeltz
mean this in the truest sense. If an athiest can explain this to me I would
be most grateful. I am at a loss, let me explain.
Christians are taught to love the human race (thy neighbor) and to
be fair and just. Not to steal or murder. They are to help the needy and
heal the sick. Not to cheat or lie. They should not backstab or take
vengance. The Jews are taught this also. Hindu's and Muslims follow close
to the same set of rules. The Eastern religions teach to become balance
within one's self and you shall be balanced with others. All of the major
religions of the world hold the same basic principal, be good to one
another. Why is this a bad thing? Why would you want to stop this?
If you think yourself enlightened to the fact that there is no God and
can still be a good person then great, but what of those weak individuals
out there that need a deity to keep them on the straight and narrow? Why
take there crutch so they fall down? I don't understand why someone would
want to end this system of religion that may in fact kept killers from
killing and rapist from raping.
If God is dead and only the foolish follow the doctrine then who cares?
Let them be fools and rejoice for you know the truth of the world. You
don't have to worry what is right and wrong only what you feel is right.
You have no fear of hell because when we die it's lights out. Why then bash
any other belief structure, especially the Christian God.
Can anyone explain to me why it matters. If in the end we just die then
why waste your time with trying to convince others that their stupid for not
knowing this. There is no rule that says you should tell others the good
news that we are just carbon lifeforms floating in space with no meaning
except to fulfill our desires in our short lifespan. For every minute you
spend trying to prove that religion is a man made trick to fool people you
lost it. You could have spent it watching a show, taking a walk, drinking a
beer, playing a game, seeing a movie, doing an endless list of hobbies or
even getting laid.
I ask again can someone explain why waste all that time when there's a
limited amount? What is your motive?
I would like a sincere response. If your just gonna call me an idiot
then you wasted more time.
enthymeme
"Stephen M. Smeltz" <chr...@hydrosoft.net> wrote:
> I am interested in someone explaining why athiests get so upset at
God. I
> mean this in the truest sense. If an athiest can explain this to me
I would
> be most grateful. I am at a loss, let me explain.
>
> Christians are taught to love the human race (thy neighbor)
and to
> be fair and just. Not to steal or murder. They are to help the
needy and
> heal the sick. Not to cheat or lie. They should not backstab or take
> vengance. The Jews are taught this also. Hindu's and Muslims follow
close
> to the same set of rules. The Eastern religions teach to become
balance
> within one's self and you shall be balanced with others. All of the
major
> religions of the world hold the same basic principal, be good to one
> another. Why is this a bad thing? Why would you want to stop this?
>
You might try actually studying some of these faiths. The christian
bible teaches them to try to push their beliefs on all others. It
teaches them (if they actually follow it) that homosexuals and pagans
are to be executed, and that someone should be exiled merely for
working on saturday. If Christians simply practiced brotherly love then
there would be no issue.
> If you think yourself enlightened to the fact that there is no
God and
> can still be a good person then great, but what of those weak
individuals
> out there that need a deity to keep them on the straight and narrow?
Why
> take there crutch so they fall down? I don't understand why someone
would
> want to end this system of religion that may in fact kept killers from
> killing and rapist from raping.
Well it hasn't kept anyone from doing anyting. In fact studies
consistently show that prison populations are overwhelmingly theist.
>
> If God is dead and only the foolish follow the doctrine then who
cares?
> Let them be fools and rejoice for you know the truth of the world.
You
> don't have to worry what is right and wrong only what you feel is
right.
> You have no fear of hell because when we die it's lights out. Why
then bash
> any other belief structure, especially the Christian God.
>
If they did not try forcing creationism into the classroom, prayer at
ballgames, denying rights to gays, etc. etc. etc then no one would care.
> Can anyone explain to me why it matters. If in the end we just
die then
> why waste your time with trying to convince others that their stupid
for not
> knowing this. There is no rule that says you should tell others the
good
> news that we are just carbon lifeforms floating in space with no
meaning
> except to fulfill our desires in our short lifespan. For every
minute you
> spend trying to prove that religion is a man made trick to fool
people you
> lost it. You could have spent it watching a show, taking a walk,
drinking a
> beer, playing a game, seeing a movie, doing an endless list of
hobbies or
> even getting laid.
I don't know of any atheist that thinks they will convince any theist
to give up religion. All the atheists I know are simply responding to
the constant harrassment from theists.
>
> I ask again can someone explain why waste all that time when
there's a
> limited amount? What is your motive?
>
> I would like a sincere response. If your just gonna call me an
idiot
> then you wasted more time.
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Stephen M. Smeltz
telling me I'm a dimwitted asshole. I commend you for that. I do see your
point on some of issues such as:
1. Prisons are full of those who claim to be religious.
2. Christians do attempt to deny rights to alot of groups that fall out
of their belief structure.
I think that these are tragic events in the church however. Many claim to
be Christian and are not. This damages the church as a whole (I may address
this issue in a later post). The church has no right to deny an American
citizen their basic rights no matter what their belief. They do however
have the right to voice their opinion on political issues like everyone
else.
Yes Christians do try to convince others of their beliefs. They are
commanded to by Christ himself. Other religions do this also. Orthodox
Muslims are to actually kill unbelivers of Allah. So that explains the push
by Christians of Gods word. I don't agree with shoving the Bible down
peoples thoats however. Bible banging does neither the church nor the
listener any good. Christians are not taught to kill pagans or gays. That
is a misconception of the Old Testement in the first place, secondly has no
bearing on the New Testament since Christ established a new covenant and way
to treat sin. Do I believe homosexuality is o.k. the answer is no. Should
the church rise up and slay them, defenatly not! That goes against all of
Christ teachings.
I would like to know your defenition of harrasment. If Christians are
harrassing you then they are out of place. If they are expressing an idea
that you don't like then that's too bad and you should closely examian why
you hate it so. I myself feel that good conversation of ideals is a healthy
thing. Even for Christians to hear from non-christians. My post was
refering to those who vehemantly post in here things like; your fucking god
is dead and just down right attacks in general. I thank you for your
response however. It was somewhat enlightening and i can see where your
coming from on some points. To let you know, even Christians disagree with
the way some Christians go about witnessing.
"enthymeme" <enthyme...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8klffo$5vd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
enthymeme
"Stephen M. Smeltz" <chr...@hydrosoft.net> wrote:
> Well it's good to see I can get a response from an atheist without
them
> telling me I'm a dimwitted asshole. I commend you for that.
No problem. Frankly I find many of the atheists in these newsgroups as
obnoxious as and fundamentalist I have ever met. BTW I am agnostic.
I do see your
> point on some of issues such as:
>
> 1. Prisons are full of those who claim to be religious.
> 2. Christians do attempt to deny rights to alot of groups that
fall out
> of their belief structure.
>
> I think that these are tragic events in the church however. Many
claim to
> be Christian and are not.
This is a bit of an old arguement. The "They aren't really
christians..." argument. How do you decide who is really a christian
and who is not?
This damages the church as a whole (I may address
> this issue in a later post). The church has no right to deny an
American
> citizen their basic rights no matter what their belief. They do
however
> have the right to voice their opinion on political issues like
everyone
> else.
I 100% agree. Any person or any group has a right to voice an opinion.
>
> Yes Christians do try to convince others of their beliefs. They
are
> commanded to by Christ himself. Other religions do this also.
Orthodox
> Muslims are to actually kill unbelivers of Allah.
A minority of muslims do this. Actually for many centuries thats also
how christianity spread, at the point of the sword. Today some
christians still feel compelled to kill abortion doctors. Also I find
it interesting that many faiths have no doctrine encouraging
proselytizing activities. Hindu's, Buddhists, Wiccans, Zoroastrians,
Jain's, etc have no proselytizing activities whatsoever.
So that explains the push
> by Christians of Gods word. I don't agree with shoving the Bible down
> peoples thoats however. Bible banging does neither the church nor the
> listener any good. Christians are not taught to kill pagans or
gays. That
> is a misconception of the Old Testement in the first place, secondly
has no
> bearing on the New Testament since Christ established a new covenant
and way
> to treat sin.
1. Jesus himself said that he did not come to do away with the law.
In fact he want out of his way to personally fullfill the law.
This "old covenant" vs. "new covenant" theology is frankly a recent
invention that christians have come up with in the past century or so
in order to avoid the unpleasant ramifications of the old testament.
2. If christians actually read and follow the bible then they are
indeed taught to kill a great many people. Just ask any abortion
doctor.
Do I believe homosexuality is o.k. the answer is no. Should
> the church rise up and slay them, defenatly not! That goes against
all of
> Christ teachings.
Which one of his teachings tells people to no longer follow the
levitical law?
>
> I would like to know your defenition of harrasment. If
Christians are
> harrassing you then they are out of place. If they are expressing an
idea
> that you don't like then that's too bad and you should closely
examian why
> you hate it so. I myself feel that good conversation of ideals is a
healthy
> thing.
I agree 100%. I myself am not being harrassed at this present time. I
did once in fact loose a job due to being agnostic.
Even for Christians to hear from non-christians. My post was
> refering to those who vehemantly post in here things like; your
fucking god
> is dead and just down right attacks in general. I thank you for your
> response however.
Your welcome. And frankly the type of posting you mention is the work
of puerille buffoons. Regardless of ideological difference there is NO
excuse to discard civillity. To do so simply embaresses oneself.
Unfortunately in these newsgroups all ideological stances have their
share of lunatics.
It was somewhat enlightening and i can see where your
> coming from on some points. To let you know, even Christians
disagree with
> the way some Christians go about witnessing.
I am well aware of that.
John Bates
Steven wrote=
I am interested in someone explaining why athiests get so upset at God. I
mean this in the truest sense. If an athiest can explain this to me I would
be most grateful. I am at a loss, let me explain.
Dear Steven,
I was touched by your sincerity, but also your niavety.
I personally loath religions because the different teachings cause people to hate.
The snips below are taken from current writings. I hope you bother to read them
I can send many more if you wish. John.
-------------------
Snipped 1.
The problem we have here with the Catholic establishment, is that the ordinary people
have never read the bible. They are not allowed to as the only person trusted by God to
interpret it for them is the Priest....great scam eh? Just generation after generation
swallowing that shite, just pay the Priest his wages and you go to heaven. It seems that
the Celts have always been suckers for it as the Priest just replaced the Druids, and they
still fill the same role. The Catholic thing is sinister though. The Priest is the all
seeing eye and has secret arcane knowledge, gleaned from the confessional box, and so must
be obeyed. Feckit John, Voodoo would be more credible to half an intelligent brain. So
next time it's raining and you want it to stop, you put a statue of St.Brid under a stone
in the garden and hey presto! If you've lost something and you want it to turn up, do the
same with St.Anthony....I wonder if St.Anthony could do anything for 3 million missing
brains and sort this country out.....enough of that. It's the way they persecute anyone
different is frightening though.
------------------------
Snip=
But, when a Muslim foundation announced plans to purchase a Christian
Church there that was up for sale, residents and elected leaders in
Palos Heights vowed to prevent the sale.
Angry residents stood up at public meetings and denounced the Muslims,
who they said were "invading" their community. Others said that the
Muslim Arabs are "different," and they especially are concerned because
they "pray on different days."
But the bigotry that is growing in Palos Heights as this three month
battle continues, revealed it's true nature when one of the community
leaders who is a leading member of the Catholic Church and organizer of
the Day of Prayer which ostensibly is intended to bring people of all
religions together, denounced Islam on a nationally televised program as
a "false religion."
Snip
-----------------------
And this - I wrote this 10 yeaars ago, I've learnt more since then. John.
Why, Oh Why?
Some time ago, after watching on television the suffering of so many people
throughout the world, I decided to try to write a book - one that would
encourage people of all Nations to work together in an effort to ease some
of this suffering. "A world unified effort". Only now is this feasible due to
the availability of modern tools such as satellite instant world wide television,
pocket audible electronic language translators and the general advancement
of worldwide communication.
Soon after the onset of my research into how this may be achieved it became
obvious that the biggest stumbling blocks were to be religions and nationalism.
And the greater of these is Religion.
So it would seem that when it comes to helping people to help themselves the
only possible way to achieve any beneficial results is firstly to demonstate
the futility of belief in all religions. To expect them all to endear themselves
in any measure to each others beliefs using any method would be madness.
Yet today, people the world over are more sensible and educated than they
have ever been in the past, logically so; today they have all the past
knowledge that others before them never had. This fact should make the
task less awesome.
So after weighing the feelings of the many religious individuals against the
positive worldwide greater gain, the mental debate for the decision made,
took seconds.
First religion =
That so many apparently sane and sensible people all over the world can
believe in any part of any religion is a miracle in itself. How can they?
Religions are evil! They have caused and cause more wars, more hatred,
more fear and frustration than all the world's geological disasters put together.
Religion defeats itself; how can it be that half the world has one and the
other half has another and that they're both fundamentally entirely
different to the other?
Each half of the world's population knows nothing about the other half's
beliefs or of the other active 500 plus religions. And they all say "Omnipotent
Gods" - even us non-divine know there are two sides to the earth.
Religions are by far the greatest shackles Mankind has ever had to endure.
To list the atrocities committed in the name of religions would require a
thicker book than the bible. The money and time wasted because of religion
is truly phenomenal.
Think of THE COST -
All the religious artefacts all over the World; Churches, Cathedrals,
Mosques, Shrines, Paintings, Engravings, Carvings Etc, Etc; All the wages
for more than 1500 years. Enough to make every starving child a billionaire.
And TIME - In the time that People and Parsons have stood; singing, dancing
and praying, they could have built the Universe. Oh Praying! When the
children are starving, don't do anything practical to help them - just pray.
"To wait in hope for help from a God is not constructive. It is positively
DESTRUCTIVE. The mind blows and more children starve. These are
some of the costs of retaining religions.
BUT these costs become next to nothing when one considers the human cost.
No, not of the time billions of people have wasted in the churches. Not of
the money these people paid that enabled the Religions to make a profit even
after all the above-mentioned expenditures, but of the human mental cost of
these ridiculous useless regimes. The lives wasted. The fear propagated.
All the religious myths that have caused so much hardship and suffering over
so many years; people afraid to die for fear of burning in the religiously
concocted 'Hell Fires'; one of the so called Christ's favourite retorts - "Cast the
iniquitous into the burning fires of Hell". The effects of this caused millions
of people to burn themselves and to torture those that they loved in order to
prepare them for the agonies they expected to endure in purgatory.
It is only 250 years since the last women and children were burned alive as
so-called witches.
Most believers lived in constant fear. The diaries of writers and poets over
hundreds of years make horrendous reading. They describe the many tortures
they inflicted on each other, the years they spent terrified, even though
they had committed no crime whatsoever.
"Hell". Such a vile, evil concept, devised by greedy, evil people.
The religious sexual laws imposed many additional hardships upon families.
The results of these ridiculous teachings still influence some men and women.
The amount of children one had, the use of masturbation being wrong,etc.etc.
Another sad aspect is the amount of people who blame themselves after some
tragic occurrence has taken place "What have I done wrong to offend my God
so much that he would do this to me?" Many people are very badly affected by
this even though they know that they have done nothing wrong. Why DO people
torture themselves and blame themselves? Why, Oh why?
Only this week, the wife of a very poor man died. He had struggled desperately
to look after her during a long period of illness. After her death it transpired that
she had money but that in her 'Will' she had bequeathed it to the Church.
One may say "But people need Religion", Yes, some do, but only because they
have been purposely taught to need it by their particular religious group,
be it any one of the 5OO or more all set to take your money and brainwash
you anew.
When the many wonderful inspiring deeds and kindnesses are performed by
religious people AND there are many, it is the people that deserve the credit,
not the religion. The same well-meaning people would do the same without a
religion. They would soon find ways of their own.
What has any religion ever achieved? Apart from creating hatred, nothing!
When a religion uses a God, supposedly omnipotent and all pervading, the
congregations are made to believe that that God created and controls the
whole world. How can one reconcile this with the fact that there are other
religions with their own myths using entirely different Gods, each believing
theirs is the only God? To believe that one is better than another is an insult
to the others. When this is preached, there is a word with racist connotations
that should be used to describe it. Different religions use fundamentally
totally alien concepts for the world's creation. If he, a God, created the
Universe five billion years ago, wasn't he a bit old to have a son yesterday
and if he created man in his own image, then he too must have been algae
in the same 'primordial soup'.
Do religious people purposely have no interest in Archaeology or Geology?
Could it be they are afraid of it? How can they doubt it? Today we should
all know that Evolution is fact, indisputable fact. We should all know that
mankind has inhabited the world for millions of years.
It can be seen to be fact. Archaeologists are digging up bones on a daily
basis, everything from dinosaurs to men and sabre toothed tigers. Yet some
people still believe in ideas that were concocted and written as books
from gods less than a thousand years ago. And different books! Koran's,
Torah's,Vedas, Bibles. And these are only the local ones. There are another
500 kicking about out there, all with different books.
How can any of it be true? IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE!
AND it's not fair to our old Ancestors, abandoned, lost and forgotten and
insulted by religions crediting their Gods with our upbringing!
BUT is it so surprising ? When we have all been indoctrinated with some
aspect of it from birth, first by the mother, then school, then by people and
priests. Not to forget the soothsayers and witchdoctors.
NO it's not surprising, it's sad, especially when one can see it happening
to tiny children. They least of all should not be taught to believe lies
that create hate. They should be taught to love their neighbours, not just
those in their neighbourhood but all those neighbours worldwide.
We don't need religions. We have enough disease. We need love, truth,
trust and tolerance.
-----------------------------------------
What can we do to bring Mankind together?
(1) We live in a chaotic, unplanned world. Alert people to this fact.
(2) Show the advantages of a world that is planned.
Nationalism may not be too difficult to break down, as every country's
history is seeped in muddy water and the purifiers are plentiful.
Revealing the hundred years secret lists will help. Some of the deeds
perpetrated by Britain and America should make them both easy to hate.
Religions as we know are not so easy. To cancel the effects from years of
continual brain washing will take some time. However so much truth about
them all can now be sent worldwide via one of the tools we need television.
So many atrocities have been and are still being committed in religion's
names. Accurate portrayal of these sordid truths should impress most people.
There are mountains of documented history in libraries and vaults, proving
just who "bribed the scribes" in order to manipulate the masses. There are
lists of documented deeds, invidious, horrendous, obnoxious deeds they have
all committed. These should be mediaised worldwide.
It can be done. With truthful education, common sense must prevail.
The cost of retaining Religion and Nationalism is tremendous. The gains that
will accrue from working in unison are astronomical. 95% of the world's
wealth is shared by one billion. 5% left for the other four billion.
The WORLD in a very large alien universe is a minute speck.
One day people will learn to work together, with belief in and respect for
others worldwide. Meanwhile 200 million children starve to death each year.
This fact alone proves that Gods are useless.
World unity will one day become a reality. A serious threat from outer space
would help. But when?
------------------------------------
If you would like to contribute time in order to help to devise a plan that
could be turned into a scheme that might conceivably help to create a World
Parliament that could oversee fairness throughout all nations and perhaps
bring some form of sanity into being. Insanity being the fact that Americans
spend 4 billion dollars a year ON PETS, while elsewhere millions of women
and children die through lack of WATER. In Britain and America millions
have no work, yet elsewhere millions of children are slaves, beaten and branded.
Please contact me. Around 100 pages are available on this theme and as
many poems in the same vein.
John Bates.
John Bates
Please accept my apology for misspelling your name. John.
Stephen M. Smeltz
the evil in mans hearts has distorted God's word and some have used it as an
exuse to kill. This is terrible and sad. I also find however that religion
has done much good. There are endless shelters and soup kitchens in America
run by churches. Yes some would rise to the occation without religion, but
they still can. If an athiest group wants to start a shelter I say have at
it! But how many have on their own. I guarentee the number of churched
back shelters far out number the private ones.
I belive you are falling into the trap of the goodness of man. Some
call it the Star Trek syndrom. Some day we'll all get alone and work happy
together. One day we'll disperse the wealth and none will starve. This is
an ancient idea. Recntly it has been known as Communism. That worked well
didn't it.
Ideally I am a true Anarchist. I belive that true freedom stems from
the complete absence of law. The problem is that for it to work there would
have to be mankind pure of heart. Think about it, just simple laws would be
broken if allowable. How many of us run the occational stop sign becouse we
can see no ones coming. I do it. This small example however shows that
when man is left to his own devices he does not good but evil. This works
at the most basic human level. If man were by nature good at heart and
learned evil then it would be ok to give a machine gun to a two year old.
When small children hit they hit out of anger or spite, not out of
ignorance. Ask any mother and they will tell you.
I'm sorry John but your Utopia will never come. It has been sought by
all throughout the ages never to be found. We even make up great ancient
civilized nations to catch a glance of it. (Atlantis comes to mind, and the
tales attached.) You can not count on the good of man alone. If one could
don't you think we would have gotten it right by now. I mean according to
you we've been here for millions of years (I thought science taught it was
around 100, 000?). As far as your Parliment over the world, you shall have
it. It will come to pass and many will love it. We will worship at its
feet and marvel at our own greatness. According to Revelation it also means
the end of the world.
"John Bates" <mir...@bates33100.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8kqc1d$kuc$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Stephen M. Smeltz
> In article <usub5.20154$Uq6.3...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net>,
> "Stephen M. Smeltz" <chr...@hydrosoft.net> wrote:
> > Well it's good to see I can get a response from an atheist without
> them
> > telling me I'm a dimwitted asshole. I commend you for that.
>
> No problem. Frankly I find many of the atheists in these newsgroups as
> obnoxious as and fundamentalist I have ever met. BTW I am agnostic.
>
> I do see your
> > point on some of issues such as:
> >
> > 1. Prisons are full of those who claim to be religious.
> > 2. Christians do attempt to deny rights to alot of groups that
> fall out
> > of their belief structure.
> >
> > I think that these are tragic events in the church however. Many
> claim to
> > be Christian and are not.
>
> This is a bit of an old arguement. The "They aren't really
> christians..." argument. How do you decide who is really a christian
> and who is not?
> Well for one do they practice what they preach. No one denies the fact
that the Pharesies were Jews and yet Jesus called then liers and vipers.
The same still goes for Christians. To say I am a Christian and then
say....steal from your company means that you are not acting as a Christian.
And you are misrepresenting Him. Christ warns of this.
>
> This damages the church as a whole (I may address
> > this issue in a later post). The church has no right to deny an
> American
> > citizen their basic rights no matter what their belief. They do
> however
> > have the right to voice their opinion on political issues like
> everyone
> > else.
>
> I 100% agree. Any person or any group has a right to voice an opinion.
>
>
> >
> > Yes Christians do try to convince others of their beliefs. They
> are
> > commanded to by Christ himself. Other religions do this also.
> Orthodox
> > Muslims are to actually kill unbelivers of Allah.
>
> A minority of muslims do this. Actually for many centuries thats also
> how christianity spread, at the point of the sword. Today some
> christians still feel compelled to kill abortion doctors. Also I find
> it interesting that many faiths have no doctrine encouraging
> proselytizing activities. Hindu's, Buddhists, Wiccans, Zoroastrians,
> Jain's, etc have no proselytizing activities whatsoever.
>
> As before, do they practice what they preach? Some one who kills an
abortion doctor to me is as bad as the doctor himself. It is a long
argument on when one has a right to kill as a Christian if he does at all.
The main point is however that many who claim to be Christians are actually
wolves in sheeps clothing. They are a deep sore on the body of the church.
> So that explains the push
> > by Christians of Gods word. I don't agree with shoving the Bible down
> > peoples thoats however. Bible banging does neither the church nor the
> > listener any good. Christians are not taught to kill pagans or
> gays. That
> > is a misconception of the Old Testement in the first place, secondly
> has no
> > bearing on the New Testament since Christ established a new covenant
> and way
> > to treat sin.
>
> 1. Jesus himself said that he did not come to do away with the law.
> In fact he want out of his way to personally fullfill the law.
> This "old covenant" vs. "new covenant" theology is frankly a recent
> invention that christians have come up with in the past century or so
> in order to avoid the unpleasant ramifications of the old testament.
>
> 2. If christians actually read and follow the bible then they are
> indeed taught to kill a great many people. Just ask any abortion
> doctor.
>
> 1. He did fufill the law. He also taught that the law was harsh
because mens hearts were hard. Divorce comes to mind. God never intended
for man to divorce his wife, yet Abraham gave them a way out because they
wouldn't follow Gods law. This is throughout the Old Testament. As far as
killing i would point to the adulter. They were gonna stone her for her sin
as perscibed by the law, yet Christ said to them, "Let he who is without sin
cast the first stone." That is one of the miricles of Christ. He himnself
said many of times that his death would be the last sacrifice( this is why
us Christians don't follow the perscibed law of burnt offering in the Old
Testament). He also said that he would die for our sins so that we didn't
have to. This was in a mortal sense as well as in the spiritual! He was
the embodiment of the compassion of God. You are a thinking man I can see
so therefore remember that Christ constantly spoke of forgiveness. How
could a man ask for forgiveness if he were dead?
You are right, many have died by the Christian hand. But if Christ
never came and died for us and we still folowed the Old Testament law think
of how many more would have there blood spilled. He did fufill the law, and
was the last to die cause of it. That is one reson He is a miricle.
> Do I believe homosexuality is o.k. the answer is no. Should
> > the church rise up and slay them, defenatly not! That goes against
> all of
> > Christ teachings.
>
> Which one of his teachings tells people to no longer follow the
> levitical law?
>
> >Refer to above, I'm sure you got it.
> > I would like to know your defenition of harrasment. If
> Christians are
> > harrassing you then they are out of place. If they are expressing an
> idea
> > that you don't like then that's too bad and you should closely
> examian why
> > you hate it so. I myself feel that good conversation of ideals is a
> healthy
> > thing.
>
> I agree 100%. I myself am not being harrassed at this present time. I
> did once in fact loose a job due to being agnostic.
>
> I'm sorry you lost your job cause of it. That is wrong. Like I said
before Christians that are true Christians act as such. Don't get me wrong
we fall like everyone else, but a true Christian would have seen the error
in their acts and apologized and offered your job back. As for them think
of their error. If you would have stayed they could have witnessed to you
the love of God through there actions, instead they scorned you. I
apologize for their actions.
> Even for Christians to hear from non-christians. My post was
> > refering to those who vehemantly post in here things like; your
> fucking god
> > is dead and just down right attacks in general. I thank you for your
> > response however.
>
> Your welcome. And frankly the type of posting you mention is the work
> of puerille buffoons. Regardless of ideological difference there is NO
> excuse to discard civillity. To do so simply embaresses oneself.
> Unfortunately in these newsgroups all ideological stances have their
> share of lunatics.
> I belive that newsgroups bring out the best and worst of both sides. To
bad the worst always seem to scream the loudest.
>
> It was somewhat enlightening and i can see where your
> > coming from on some points. To let you know, even Christians
> disagree with
> > the way some Christians go about witnessing.
>
> I am well aware of that.
>
> At least your thinking! That is a start for many things.
John Bates
Stephen,
Sorry but your reply cuts no ice my end.
Religions don't make the majority of adherents good.
laws will always be needed.
You said=
>I belive you are falling into the trap of the goodness of man. Some
>call it the Star Trek syndrom. Some day we'll all get alone and work happy
>together. One day we'll disperse the wealth and none will starve. This is
>an ancient idea. Recntly it has been known as Communism. That worked well
I can't imagine where you got this idea from.
Though I do believe that without the intervention of American paranoia
over communism frightening the Russians into spending billions on arms
they would have fared much better, John.
Stephen M. Smeltz
continue. I feel awful to the fact that the church has put such a bad taste
in your mouth that the main theme of love and compassion has been lost to
you. I pray that some day you may find the light through the darkness that
has been spread for so long. No prob with the name man.
Stephen
"John Bates" <mir...@bates33100.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8kthto$ejl$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
John Bates
I fail to see why a person has to be religious in order to be
loving and compassionate. Nor can I see the continuing friction
between them all contributing in anyway to over all love and compassion.
For me and many others, religions are of no importance whatsoever and
in my case it has been that way for the last 50 years.(Thank God)
My only concern is that the worlds peoples are fragmented for many
reasons, religion being one of them, and the sooner all Countries work
together and plan the future progress of the whole World the better.
As it is, the World and it's people continue evolving haphazardly in a
downward spiral. John.
---------------
Stephen wrote=
enthymeme
In other words you are claiming that God made laws he did not think
where good simply because mens hearts where hard? Guess what many mens
hearts are still hard, what made god change his mind?
As far as
> killing i would point to the adulter. They were gonna stone her for
her sin
> as perscibed by the law, yet Christ said to them, "Let he who is
without sin
> cast the first stone." That is one of the miricles of Christ. He
himnself
> said many of times that his death would be the last sacrifice( this
is why
> us Christians don't follow the perscibed law of burnt offering in the
Old
> Testament).
But executions as punishment are not sacrifices. We also have only one
example of him intervening to spare someone and then only when the
pharisees asked him in an attempt to trap him by his own words. There
is no indication whatsoever that he was against the execution of
levitical punishements.
He also said that he would die for our sins so that we didn't
> have to.
Please give the exact quote where Jesus said this.
> This was in a mortal sense as well as in the spiritual!
In your opinion
> He was
> the embodiment of the compassion of God.
Really? Thats why he said he came to bring a sword not peace? Thats
why he said he came to set mother against daughter and father against
son? Thats why he said that if you didn't follow him, no matter how
good a person you where, you would be subjected to an eternity of
unimaginable torment?
You must define compassion differently than I do.
> You are a thinking man I can see
> so therefore remember that Christ constantly spoke of forgiveness.
How
> could a man ask for forgiveness if he were dead?
>
> You are right, many have died by the Christian hand. But if
Christ
> never came and died for us and we still folowed the Old Testament law
think
> of how many more would have there blood spilled. He did fufill the
law, and
> was the last to die cause of it. That is one reson He is a miricle.
Gee what if God had simply made a compassionate law to start with,
think how many WOULD NOT HAVE DIED.
Yes they do. This old tired arguement of "well they wherent TRUE
christians" is frankly unfounded. A TRUE christain may feel "spirit
led" to do something you disagree with.
simonh...@my-deja.com
"John Bates" <mir...@bates33100.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Stephen,
> I fail to see why a person has to be religious in order
to be
> loving and compassionate. Nor can I see the continuing friction
> between them all contributing in anyway to over all love and
compassion.
> For me and many others, religions are of no importance whatsoever and
> in my case it has been that way for the last 50 years.(Thank God)
I see this argument very often, and it is a good one. It actualy
corresponds quite closely to a theme in the New testament, and in
fact in Judaism as a whole in the few hundred years before and
after Jesus life. At the time Judaism was very much centred on the
ritual life of the Temple in Jerusalem. For many hundreds of years the
Temple had been the indispensible centre of Jewish religious life,
yet Jews were beginning to find themselves dissatisfied with this
symbology. To many it seems to have become mundane, formulaic and
spiritualy unsatisfying.
This seems to me to paralell the disatisfaction that many people feel
nowadays with organised church religion. Some like me are looking for
a less restrictive, less formulaic and more open minded approach to
spirituality - ironicaly exactly what I think Jesus and his
contemporaries such as the Essenes were trying to do. Others have
abandoned any form of religious experience in their lives altogether.
I don't think there is anything the traditional churches can do
to stop this - they're the problem, not the solution. I just think it
is a shame that many people confuse church with religion, and reject
both when realy it's the intelectualy stifling institiutions of the
churches, with all their historical baggage, that are the problem
for them.
Simon Hibbs
simonh...@my-deja.com
enthymeme <enthyme...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 1. He did fufill the law. He also taught that the law was
harsh
> > because mens hearts were hard. Divorce comes to mind. God never
> intended
> > for man to divorce his wife, yet Abraham gave them a way out because
> they
> > wouldn't follow Gods law. This is throughout the Old Testament.
>
> In other words you are claiming that God made laws he did not think
> where good simply because mens hearts where hard? Guess what many
mens
> hearts are still hard, what made god change his mind?
As an asside, god changes his mind quite a few times in the bible.
There are several cases where various prophets persuaded God to
change his punishments, or give people a second chance. Reading
through the old testament, it's as though God gradualy learns more
about humans and how to handle them as history progresses. The
Jewish view of their history as an ongoing dialogue with god is a
two-way process.
Simon Hibbs