The Cost of Dying
John Manning
Great piece on 60 Minutes
"Fisher is convinced that there is so much waste
in the present system that if it were eliminated
there would be no need to ration beneficial care
to anyone."
Many Americans spend their last days in an intensive care unit,
subjected to uncomfortable machines or surgeries to prolong their lives
at enormous cost. Steve Kroft reports.
From the transcript: On "rationing" Health Care
STEVE KROFT: But if recent history is any guide, rationing has become
the third rail of American politics, even though Dr. Elliot Fisher [a
researcher at the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy] says we already
limit health care based on income and whether people have insurance.
After analyzing Medicare records for end-of-life treatment, Fisher is
convinced that there is so much waste in the present system that if it
were eliminated there would be no need to ration beneficial care to anyone.
60 Minutes video here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5737138n&tag=related;photovideo
Great Dayne
The baxter is quite cheap.
Won't cost much to end you under capital punishment idiot!
Dan Listermann
"John Manning" <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote in message
news:QJidnc_89tI-L5fW...@giganews.com...
My 84 year old father-in-law was clearly dying of complications due to
circulatory surgery. While in the hospital "recovering" from this surgery,
he had respiratory problems. They rushed him to another hospital and
proceeded to do surgery on his lungs to remove a small cancerous growth. He
was dead three days later.
Great Dayne
Marked.
Larry
L5fWnZ2dnU...@giganews.com:
> Many Americans spend their last days in an intensive care unit,
> subjected to uncomfortable machines or surgeries to prolong their
lives
> at enormous cost. Steve Kroft reports.
>
>
Anyone with money or big insurance policies are kept alive as long as
the medical machine can milk the money out of them. The only machine
worse than the medical money machine is the religious money machines.
Hanging the greedy doctors on the same gallows as the clerics and
lawyers sucking our blood all our lives is very appropriate.
Hanging the bankers and politicians is also very appropriate, this
morning, as the dollar CONTINUES to collapse, setting a new all-time
high in the price of GOLD over $1,175/oz just an hour ago. We've
continued to set a new gold record every day, nearly every hour the past
week!
"GOLD
* COMEX December gold GCZ9 up $25, or 2.2 percent, at
$1,171.80 an ounce at 9:57 a.m. EST (1457 GMT) on the NYMEX.
* Range from $1,151.60 to $1,174 -- an all-time high."
That's old news, now. It passed $1,175 since then and continues to rise
to new RECORD levels, thanks to the bribed politicians paying public
money to the bank and car corporations in massive amounts, trillions of
faux dollars.
We should stop arguing over stupid religion, entirely, and try to save
our children from political and banker-induced starvation, a much more
important issue than this religious bullshit filling the newsgroup.
--
Larry
Heavily invested in Rhodium for several years. Vindicated from the
jokes of friends when I did it.
Rhodium is at $2,450/oz this morning in a very steep climb back towards
its $10,100/oz peak before the crash....(c;]
Rhodium - The OTHER precious metal....
Dan Listermann
"Larry" <no...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CCC7844CAB...@74.209.131.13...
> John Manning <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote in news:QJidnc_89tI-
> L5fWnZ2dnU...@giganews.com:
>
>> Many Americans spend their last days in an intensive care unit,
>> subjected to uncomfortable machines or surgeries to prolong their
> lives
>> at enormous cost. Steve Kroft reports.
>>
>>
>
> Anyone with money or big insurance policies are kept alive as long as
> the medical machine can milk the money out of them.
This reflects my feelings.
Larry
$4a53bf9f$18...@FUSE.NET:
I have a friend I will not name in medical research. He's in charge of
his department of a major medical public university.
An old man lay dying in one of the beds that had a big insurance policy
the university could milk for months keeping him alive. He had a
terminal disease with zero chance of recovery.
There were no beds available for other patients as this old man wasn't
the only hospice case being milked by the money grubbers.
A young kid in his teens came in with a similar, but treatable disease,
that needed immediate treatment. He had no insurance to milk and was a
charity case from a poor family.
My friend, head of the department that can save his life, fought long
and hard to have the boy admitted, "in the hallway if necessary, hell,
in my office if that will do!" They could have simply removed the old
man from life support and let him die in a few hours to free up the bed
for the boy. They REFUSED to do it because the university would lose
several hundred thousand dollars in billable insurance plus the kid's
unpaid operation and care. My friend nearly lost his job over this
affair. They threatened to terminate him after 25 years of loyal
service if he didn't stop his actions.
The boy died 3 weeks later because noone would admit him. It was all
about the damned MONEY....how awful.
The sooner socialized medicine takes over America away from the greed of
the current medical system, the better. American doctors have NO REASON
to ever make anyone "well", which cuts off the cash cow....and EVERY
reason to keep as many patients as possible "sick" and on the hook for
themselves and the pharma corporations who pay them big money to sell
drugs to the hypocondriacs they create.
Socialist doctors are paid to keep patients WELL, reducing costs. You
are REQUIRED to have regular checkups to make SURE you're well!
--
Larry
SwordoZ
SoZ:
Not doubting what you stated.
But the question is "what is the reality of the track record of "socialized
medicine" in countries which have embraced this medical dogma?
Questions:
(1)
Who/What is the responsible entity going to be having the ultimate decision
of pulling the plug ... patient, family, doctor or Govt. bureacracy?
(2)
What IF you or a loved one were thrust in that position ... what would
"you" do?
(3)
What you fail to take into account is the "cash cows" as you refer to them,
are funded by insured "small cash cows" who have through their own volition
chose to pay for the benefits they receive from the "cash cow".
Why not demonize the "small cash cows" as well?
(4)
How can you arrogantly interject insurers into the fray as being "cash cows"
... for a decision made by medical professionals to "refuse" medical
attention to that boy?
(5)
Where does the blame lay ... on the "cash cow" insurance suppliers (as you
refer to them) or your friend the medical professional. As the law stands
this boy should not have been refused medical attention.
Where has this scenario occured?
(6)
You point fingers and demonize insurance suppliers who allegedly work on a
2-3 per cent profit margin funded by self insured "smaller cows" as being
"cash cows" ... but at the same time refusing to point fingers and demonize
the liberal establishment and other...
(1) "cash cows" within the legal system ...
(2) "cash cows" within the political system ...
(3) "cash cows" within the financial system ...
(4) "cash cows" within arts/science community ...
(5) "cash cows" within entertainment/acting ...
(6) "cash cows" within the sporting community
(7) and "cash cows" amongst the advocates of
"political correctness" ...
is disingenious on your part.
Allow me to let you in on a "dirty little secret" amongst the above
mentioned "cash cows".
They don't give a rats "behind" about health care of the poor and
disadvantaged.
Why?
Because those "cash cows" believe in the benevolence of the human heart? Kid
yourself not. It all comes down to personal economics. They are of the
opinion that money talks as they seceretly rape the economy and people of
America.
The "dirty little secret" mentioned earlier ...
the political "cash cows" as mentioned within the system ... many who openly
advocate a socialized health care system in this country ... are covered by
plans which the vast majority of citizens are refused entry.
The remainder understand that "cash" talks ... and "cash" will cover
whatever medical attention they may require at any given time.
Do you fit into the "cash cows" as mentioned?
SoZ
Dan Listermann
"SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote in message news:4b0af7e3$0$4054
> (1)
> Who/What is the responsible entity going to be having the ultimate
> decision of pulling the plug ... patient, family, doctor or Govt.
> bureacracy?
>
Insurance industry bureaucracy? Nice guys who always have your best
interest at heart.
Logan Sacket
We can eliminate health care for anyone over 65 and save both social
security and medicare at the same time.
SwordoZ
"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message
news:6901a$4b0afa0e$4a53bf9f$14...@FUSE.NET...
SoZ:
In your view D.C. is inhabited by a better breed of "nice guys".
Larry
"SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote in
news:4b0af7e3$0$4054$cd3e...@news.enter.net:
> SoZ:
> Not doubting what you stated.
>
> But the question is "what is the reality of the track record of
> "socialized medicine" in countries which have embraced this medical
> dogma?
First one of my little personal experiences......
An old friend who had had a few medical claims against insurance
companies got him on the black list that doesn't exist. He had money,
but could not get coverage. I'll call that blacklisted, any day.
He'd made some contacts with Americans living in Paris who were stunned
he needed heart bypass surgery and simply couldn't afford it. Noone
here would touch him without some serious cash he simply didn't have.
These American expats in France told him to come to France and establish
a residency so the socialist system there would fix his heart.
He did. They told him there was a certain number of days he would have
to reside in France before he could use the system. Those people turned
out to be wrong and the first French doctor he visited got quite mad at
him for waiting to come talk to him and get the ball rolling.
This horrible socialist doctor Bill O'Reilly talked about for hours
today on his propaganda radio show started to call for an ambulance
immediately to get him to the hospital. After some smooth talking,
using his landlady's son as interpreter as he didn't speak French, he
talked the doctor into letting him return to his French flat and
straighten up his affairs for a day before going in for the operation.
The doctor had the ambulance waiting at his doorstep at 0700 refusing to
take another "wait" for an answer. He was trying to save this crazy
American's life. Already setup to receive him upon entry, these
horrible socialist medical people wheeled him from the ambulance
straight into the intensive care unit for extensive testing to verify
his medical records he'd brought from his American doctor. It was
decided to operate immediately, WAY out of the propaganda bullshit
plastered against every American back home in the constant noise from
the ultra-rich like Rush and O'Reilly.
He was operated on by the finest French cardiologists in the country the
next day as it was life threatening. The operation was successful, but
he thought he'd never get out of the hospital as they kept 24/7 watch
over him in the ICU before finally letting him rejoin his family in
their little French flat. He spent many hours after that with his staff
of medical specialists following up the first class care these great
doctors gave him to save his life.
What was different, in all this, is that MONEY - M-O-N-E-Y - that's
always discussed as the limit of medical care in America...what you can
afford or produce insurance to afford, was NEVER EVEN MENTIONED in Paris
by anyone! Any time he asked, they scoffed and told him to get used to
it if he was going to live in Paris.
The moved from the little flat to a bigger place closer to the Seine
after his kids sold his house and stuff back in America. They're not
coming back....except maybe to visit. He told me his French doctor will
make arrangements for his medical care when he visits America, at no
cost to him I know of, in case he needs it while visiting his
kids.....sort of like Canadians get before heading off to Florida for
the winter.
>
> Questions:
>
> (1)
> Who/What is the responsible entity going to be having the ultimate
> decision of pulling the plug ... patient, family, doctor or Govt.
> bureacracy?
I don't know. From what my friend above tells me, his wife was asked
many such medical questions during and after the surgery. They didn't
tell her how it was going to be....they asked for her input. I'd assume
our system would be similar to these other systems.
>
> (2)
> What IF you or a loved one were thrust in that position ... what
> would "you" do?
>
I always hear Americans worrying over selecting their own doctors.
That's probably OK for choosing a general doctor, but I can't imagine
you or any of us for that matter, being smarter than the doctors at
choosing the right man for the job past your favorite old Doctor Kildare
the wife is in love with for his warm hands and who knows what. I want
Doctor A to send me to the best specialist HE can find, not me in the
yellow pages under Doctors. One thing I can see that will be different
under a socialist system, Doctor A won't be paid under the table by
Doctor B to send patients to his little office in the medical building
that goes on now. The doctors don't seem interested in MONEY over
there. They get paid to deliver CURED PATIENTS THAT DON'T NEED
EXTENSIVE MORE CARE....not hypocondriacs hooked on constant expensive
drugs, like Americans have become. Hell, Rush Limbaugh was drug
shopping doctors! Remember?
>
> (3)
> What you fail to take into account is the "cash cows" as you refer to
> them, are funded by insured "small cash cows" who have through their
> own volition chose to pay for the benefits they receive from the
> "cash cow".
>
> Why not demonize the "small cash cows" as well?
>
Let's be honest. Americans paying huge premiums for ANY kind of
insurance think the insurance company is a vast well of free money they
can tap, indefinately, once they get that policy full of this and that,
but not these and those in unreadable legalese that goes on for page
after page to protect the insurance corporation...not the patient. The
insurance company can afford ANYTHING, RIGHT? They can, but they won't!
Ever had a major claim against an insurance company? I'm talking about
a BIG claim for a house blown away by a hurricane or drowned and dragged
away by a flood....or a totally wrecked brand new Mercedes. Ever had to
FIGHT FOR EVERY DIME from the bastards at Megamonograph Insurance and
Casualty, Inc. in front of a judge when they told you NO, that's not
covered and we're not giving you anything? If you haven't, you've not
experienced the sheer pleasure of watching them steal 35 years of
premiums and offer you nothing. It's how insurance companies have VAST
fortunes, huge buildings in the most expensive part of major cities,
vast wealth they have no intention of sharing with YOU...unless a judge
forces them. Your attorney is an amateur compared to that battery of
attornies sitting with their claims officer! Good luck!
>
> (4)
> How can you arrogantly interject insurers into the fray as being "cash
> cows" ... for a decision made by medical professionals to "refuse"
> medical attention to that boy?
>
Because what was the ONLY thing important to the university bureaucrats
was M-O-N-E-Y, the money the old man's insurance company would pay
they'd lose when they let him die. Nothing else mattered, especially
this poor boy's health!
> (5)
> Where does the blame lay ... on the "cash cow" insurance suppliers (as
> you refer to them) or your friend the medical professional. As the law
> stands this boy should not have been refused medical attention.
>
> Where has this scenario occured?
I won't say because that would identify my friend. It happens across
the USA every day. Hell, most Americans have no idea over 75,000
Americans died because of MEDICAL ERRORS last year in hospitals!
>
>
> (6)
> You point fingers and demonize insurance suppliers who allegedly work
> on a 2-3 per cent profit margin funded by self insured "smaller cows"
> as being "cash cows" ... but at the same time refusing to point
> fingers and demonize the liberal establishment and other...
Horseshit. Nobody's gonna buy a whole city block in downtown Atlanta
for this massive edifice to the insurance bureaucracy on 2% profit
margin. Shit man, LOOK AT HOW THEY LIVE!
>
> (1) "cash cows" within the legal system ...
>
> (2) "cash cows" within the political system ...
>
> (3) "cash cows" within the financial system ...
>
> (4) "cash cows" within arts/science community ...
>
> (5) "cash cows" within entertainment/acting ...
>
> (6) "cash cows" within the sporting community
>
> (7) and "cash cows" amongst the advocates of
> "political correctness" ...
Totally irrelevant to this conversation. Noone is going to die because
of the entertainment or sporting community not dealing fairly with them.
Doctors take an OATH....that means very little when the MONEY gets into
their lives. Some doctors see 10 patients an hour jumping from room to
room to room as fast as they can to maximize profits.
>
> is disingenious on your part.
Do this. Go as a new patient to a new doctor and tell him you make
$8/hour cooking at Waffle House and have no insurance. See what kind of
medical care you get in the wonderful American Medical Association
system of American Medicine.
Do it again, with a huge medical insurance policy from a major company
or as a millionaire talk show host like Bill O'Reilly.
To say they're both going to get good care is just stupid! The first
guy is lucky if he gets 10 minutes and a cursory look. He's no threat
in a courtroom for malpractice. He can't afford a lawyer!
>
> Allow me to let you in on a "dirty little secret" amongst the above
> mentioned "cash cows".
>
> They don't give a rats "behind" about health care of the poor and
> disadvantaged.
>
> Why?
> Because those "cash cows" believe in the benevolence of the human
> heart? Kid yourself not. It all comes down to personal economics. They
> are of the opinion that money talks as they seceretly rape the economy
> and people of America.
>
> The "dirty little secret" mentioned earlier ...
>
> the political "cash cows" as mentioned within the system ... many who
> openly advocate a socialized health care system in this country ...
> are covered by plans which the vast majority of citizens are refused
> entry.
>
> The remainder understand that "cash" talks ... and "cash" will cover
> whatever medical attention they may require at any given time.
>
> Do you fit into the "cash cows" as mentioned?
>
> SoZ
>
Nice triad but it doesn't change the FACTS. Poor American in the
richest country on the planet have NO MEDICAL COVERAGE AT ALL.....
If we can afford NASA, paying trillions to save the Jew Bankers, wars in
countries that never attacked us or threatened us in any way....We can
afford to care for EVERY AMERICAN who needs it. Cutting off NASA's
plans to populate the moon will easily pay for medical care for EVERY
CHILD IN THE COUNTRY.....FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.
--
Larry
BURT
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now if there is no God then every human life was meaningless. If you
are only going to live once won't you flip out in the end with the
prospect of dying forever. The reason the atheist doesn't flip out
when he is dying is because of God.
Mitch Raemsch
Larry
11db19...@z35g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> Now if there is no God then every human life was meaningless. If you
> are only going to live once won't you flip out in the end with the
> prospect of dying forever. The reason the atheist doesn't flip out
> when he is dying is because of God.
>
> Mitch Raemsch
>
>
Nonsense, Mitch.
The atheist is returning from where he came, the Earth itself. He has
been aware of it since his deprogramming, or his childhood. He doesn't
have to fantasize about some "stairway to hell" or be the least bit
afraid of joining the natural world from where he came. He knows his
carbon-based life form will be assimilated by other carbon based life
forms to create new and ongoing life to the planet he knows and loves,
with out horrible superstitions of burning places or unknowns. During
his life, he feels his place between his toes at the beach or running
barefoot across a beautiful meadow. He's not "going home" to some
Fantasy Island. He has been here all his life and relishes being
delivered back to his earth as his conciousness fades to a whiteout just
at the point his brain stops processing the massive sensory data his
whole life has been filled with.
"His life passes before him.", we've heard people with near-death
experiences proclaim. Unlike the brainwashed religious theist, I'm
convinced his last massive flash of images are of his Earth, every
landscape he's ever witnessed since his birth flashing past, probably
backwards, to his birth. There's no need for his fading memory to go
off into a dream world created by his stupid religion of some kind of
"eternity". He sees his world over again, his kids spool backwards
through their lives to their birth. His flagging marriage spooling back
to that magical time of their first coupling, the first time he
impregnated her with his spawn, to propagate the next evolution of homo
sapiens atheistic every baby, ever born before the theistic brainwashing
is born with, a new wonderment of every vision the baby sees, before YOU
turn your spawn over to some religious animals to ABUSE with fake
visions of death and horrible destruction and bloody bodies stabbed and
maimed, used to control them all their lives, like you are controlled
reading this in religious rage caused by your conditioning.
Sorry, Mitch. We cannot be afraid of the "unknown" some money grubbing,
mind bending monster from a theological seminary has worried him over
his whole life to get money out of his pocket and control his every
thought. The atheist is comfortably seated, already, in the "paradise"
of his birth, his "Good Earth", with the wonderful thoughts of the
unencumbered, magnificent life he's lead spooling backwards those last
few milliseconds before his conversion back to a recyclable state of
ever-regenerating evolutionary molecules feeding the next generation of
loving, caring atheists to carry on the natural cycle of evolution that
has gone on for billions of years on our pretty little, totally
insignificant and obviously unnoticed, blue water-covered rock in
space....and time.....and probably other dimensions of physics some
future generation of wondering atheists will discover as SCIENCE
advances away from religious fantasy.....
....unless some Goddamned theist, like yourself, hell bent on stupid
superstitious notions of "Rapture" or "Ethnic Cleansing" or as yet
undiscovered religious atrocities pushes that Goddamned button in the
football the theistic heads of state YOU continue to elect...blows us
all to hell, prematurely, ending the beautiful cycle of natural
evolution MILLIONS of years of atheism without your jealous "god" of
recent history causes.
--
Larry
Hmm....not bad for a simple technician with a high school dipolma...(c;]
Alan Ford
> Now if there is no God then every human life was meaningless.
Hmmm, fascinating logic. Let me try:
Now if there is no Santa Claus then every giraffe's stomach is purple.
What do you know? It works!
If you
> are only going to live once won't you flip out in the end with the
> prospect of dying forever.
No. Next question?
The reason the atheist doesn't flip out
> when he is dying is because of God.
You're an idiot.
--
If you don't beat your meat
You can't have any pudding
How can you have any pudding
If you don't beat your meat?
SwordoZ
> I'll try but the list is long....
>
> "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote in
> news:4b0af7e3$0$4054$cd3e...@news.enter.net:
>> SoZ:
>> Not doubting what you stated.
>> But the question is "what is the reality of the track record of
>> "socialized medicine" in countries which have embraced this medical
>> dogma?
> First one of my little personal experiences......
> An old friend who had had a few medical claims against insurance
> companies got him on the black list that doesn't exist.
He had money,
> but could not get coverage. I'll call that blacklisted, any day.
SoZ:
Friend or no friend ... It never raised a red flag to you as to questioning
WHY a few claims (plural) against some insurance companies (plural) landed
him on a
non-existant blacklist of those same insurance companies (plural)?
> He'd made some contacts with Americans living in Paris who were stunned
> he needed heart bypass surgery and simply couldn't afford it. Noone
> here would touch him without some serious cash he simply didn't have.
SoZ:
It seemingly revolves around he being "blacklisted" as you state. Do you
have any facts from the insurance's side of the argument?
> These American expats in France told him to come to France and establish
> a residency so the socialist system there would fix his heart.
SoZ:
American expats ... renounce his citizenship?
What are the reasons these expats are residents of France?
> He did. They told him there was a certain number of days he would have
> to reside in France before he could use the system. Those people turned
> out to be wrong and the first French doctor he visited got quite mad at
> him for waiting to come talk to him and get the ball rolling.
SoZ:
In other words those expats didn't know what they were talking about.
> This horrible socialist doctor Bill O'Reilly talked about for hours
> today on his propaganda radio
SoZ:
Don't know what your referring to.
show started to call for an ambulance
> immediately to get him to the hospital.
After some smooth talking,
> using his landlady's son as interpreter as he didn't speak French, he
> talked the doctor into letting him return to his French flat and
> straighten up his affairs for a day before going in for the operation.
SoZ:
You witnessed this personally?
> The doctor had the ambulance waiting at his doorstep at 0700 refusing to
> take another "wait" for an answer. He was trying to save this crazy
> American's life.
SoZ:
And ... "you" witnessed this personally?
Already setup to receive him upon entry, these
> horrible socialist medical people wheeled him from the ambulance
> straight into the intensive care unit for extensive testing to verify
> his medical records he'd brought from his American doctor.
SoZ:
And ... you witnessed this "personally"?
It was
> decided to operate immediately, WAY out of the propaganda bullshit
> plastered against every American back home in the constant noise from
> the ultra-rich like Rush and O'Reilly.
SoZ:
And ... you seem to believe the President and his minions in the lame media
are squeaky clean and would never think of engaging in the same "propaganda
bullshit" from their point of view?
> He was operated on by the finest French cardiologists in the country the
> next day as it was life threatening. The operation was successful, but
> he thought he'd never get out of the hospital as they kept 24/7 watch
> over him in the ICU before finally letting him rejoin his family in
> their little French flat.
He spent many hours after that with his staff
> of medical specialists following up the first class care these great
> doctors gave him to save his life.
SoZ:
And ... you were there and witnessed it all?
> What was different, in all this, is that MONEY - M-O-N-E-Y - that's
> always discussed as the limit of medical care in America...what you can
> afford or produce insurance to afford, was NEVER EVEN MENTIONED in Paris
> by anyone! Any time he asked, they scoffed and told him to get used to
> it if he was going to live in Paris.
SoZ:
I agree - "MONEY - M-O-N-E-Y"- talks no matter what language is spoken.
> The moved from the little flat to a bigger place closer to the Seine
> after his kids sold his house and stuff back in America. They're not
> coming back....except maybe to visit. He told me his French doctor will
> make arrangements for his medical care when he visits America, at no
> cost to him I know of, in case he needs it while visiting his
> kids.....sort of like Canadians get before heading off to Florida for
> the winter.
SoZ:
That ... "I know of".
Apparently your not sure ... but then "how" sure are you that "MONEY -
M-O-N-E-Y" didn't enter into the picture beforehand?
>> Questions:
>>
>> (1)
>> Who/What is the responsible entity going to be having the ultimate
>> decision of pulling the plug ... patient, family, doctor or Govt.
>> bureacracy?
>
> I don't know. From what my friend above tells me, his wife was asked
> many such medical questions during and after the surgery. They didn't
> tell her how it was going to be....they asked for her input. I'd assume
> our system would be similar to these other systems.
SoZ:
You assume ... but the surety of our system has had the same qualities of
input
which you describe for as long I've been around ... decades?
>> (2)
>> What IF you or a loved one were thrust in that position ... what
>> would "you" do?
>>
> I always hear Americans worrying over selecting their own doctors.
> That's probably OK for choosing a general doctor, but I can't imagine
> you or any of us for that matter, being smarter than the doctors at
> choosing the right man for the job past your favorite old Doctor Kildare
> the wife is in love with for his warm hands and who knows what. I want
> Doctor A to send me to the best specialist HE can find, not me in the
> yellow pages under Doctors.
SoZ:
You believe French doctors don't use yellow pages?
One thing I can see that will be different
> under a socialist system, Doctor A won't be paid under the table by
> Doctor B to send patients to his little office in the medical building
> that goes on now.
The doctors don't seem interested in MONEY over
> there.
SoZ:
Your out of touch with the reality of the socialistic medicne.
Have you ever been friends to any "common" folks of recent European
ancestry
and been invited to visit their homeland with them and "actually" visit,
hear and talk to people
from a groundfloor perspective what those "common" folks" continually
endure under "socialized" medicine?
They get paid to deliver CURED PATIENTS THAT DON'T NEED
> EXTENSIVE MORE CARE....not hypocondriacs hooked on constant expensive
> drugs, like Americans have become. Hell, Rush Limbaugh was drug
> shopping doctors! Remember?
SoZ:
Have you ever conversed with a Doctor or Medical Professional who left their
"European" homeland and ask "why" they left their homeland's socialized HC
system??
>> (3)
>> What you fail to take into account is the "cash cows" as you refer to
>> them, are funded by insured "small cash cows" who have through their
>> own volition chose to pay for the benefits they receive from the
>> "cash cow".
>>
>> Why not demonize the "small cash cows" as well?
> Let's be honest. Americans paying huge premiums for ANY kind of
> insurance think the insurance company is a vast well of free money they
> can tap, indefinately, once they get that policy full of this and that,
> but not these and those in unreadable legalese that goes on for page
> after page to protect the insurance corporation...not the patient. The
> insurance company can afford ANYTHING, RIGHT? They can, but they won't!
SoZ:
Your overstaing everything with a broad brush.
Why would over 80% of Americans state they are satisfied with their
insurance if your stated assessment were the norm?
> Ever had a major claim against an insurance company? I'm talking about
> a BIG claim for a house blown away by a hurricane or drowned and dragged
> away by a flood....or a totally wrecked brand new Mercedes.
SoZ:
No.
Ever had to
> FIGHT FOR EVERY DIME from the bastards at Megamonograph Insurance and
> Casualty, Inc. in front of a judge when they told you NO, that's not
> covered and we're not giving you anything?
SoZ:
No.
>If you haven't, you've not
> experienced the sheer pleasure of watching them steal 35 years of
> premiums and offer you nothing.
SoZ:
Was coverage for the above mentioned damages included in the 35 years of
premiums paid?
It's how insurance companies have VAST
> fortunes, huge buildings in the most expensive part of major cities,
> vast wealth they have no intention of sharing with YOU...unless a judge
> forces them. Your attorney is an amateur compared to that battery of
> attornies sitting with their claims officer! Good luck!
SoZ:
Apparently you are oblivious to the array of frivolous lawsuits as
advertised by the legal community which permeates the print and media
landscape today. c
>> (4)
>> How can you arrogantly interject insurers into the fray as being "cash
>> cows" ... for a decision made by medical professionals to "refuse"
>> medical attention to that boy?
> Because what was the ONLY thing important to the university bureaucrats
> was M-O-N-E-Y, the money the old man's insurance company would pay
> they'd lose when they let him die.
> Nothing else mattered, especially
> this poor boy's health!
SoZ:
But what about family members who pay the premiums to keep this individual
alive - what are their rights?
>> (5)
>> Where does the blame lay ... on the "cash cow" insurance suppliers (as
>> you refer to them) or your friend the medical professional. As the law
>> stands this boy should not have been refused medical attention.
>> Where has this scenario occured?
> I won't say because that would identify my friend. It happens across
> the USA every day.
SoZ:
Do you have any proof to back that statement?
Hell, most Americans have no idea over 75,000
> Americans died because of MEDICAL ERRORS last year in hospitals!
SoZ:
Where did you get this statistic from?
>> (6)
>> You point fingers and demonize insurance suppliers who allegedly work
>> on a 2-3 per cent profit margin funded by self insured "smaller cows"
>> as being "cash cows" ... but at the same time refusing to point
>> fingers and demonize the liberal establishment and other...
> Horseshit. Nobody's gonna buy a whole city block in downtown Atlanta
> for this massive edifice to the insurance bureaucracy on 2% profit
> margin. Shit man, LOOK AT HOW THEY LIVE!
SoZ:
Are you basing this on what apparently happened to you?
>> (1) "cash cows" within the legal system ...
>>
>> (2) "cash cows" within the political system ...
>>
>> (3) "cash cows" within the financial system ...
>>
>> (4) "cash cows" within arts/science community ...
>>
>> (5) "cash cows" within entertainment/acting ...
>>
>> (6) "cash cows" within the sporting community
>>
>> (7) and "cash cows" amongst the advocates of
>> "political correctness" ...
>
> Totally irrelevant to this conversation. Noone is going to die because
> of the entertainment or sporting community not dealing fairly with them.
SoZ:
Sorry to disageree. But they are the biggest whiners in this entire debate.
If these individuals were as concerned as they make themselves appear to be
... why don't they contribute 25 - 30 % of their income to those Free
Medical Centers scattered throughout the country. That's what I call putting
your HC money where your mouth is.
> Doctors take an OATH....that means very little when the MONEY gets into
> their lives. Some doctors see 10 patients an hour jumping from room to
> room to room as fast as they can to maximize profits.
SoZ:
But what do you expect doctors to do ... work 16 -20 hour days ... when
their is a shortage of doctors to begin with?
>> is disingenious on your part.
> Do this. Go as a new patient to a new doctor and tell him you make
> $8/hour cooking at Waffle House and have no insurance. See what kind of
> medical care you get in the wonderful American Medical Association
> system of American Medicine.
SoZ:
Well - try likewise to go to an auto mechanic and ask him to fix your car
because you don't have the money.
That's how ludicrous your statement is.
> Do it again, with a huge medical insurance policy from a major company
> or as a millionaire talk show host like Bill O'Reilly.
> To say they're both going to get good care is just stupid! The first
> guy is lucky if he gets 10 minutes and a cursory look.
SoZ:
According to the law ... hospitals cannot refuse medical attention to
anyone.
He's no threat
> in a courtroom for malpractice. He can't afford a lawyer!
SoZ:
But if he would have gone to a hospital's emergency room he wouldn't have
had to worry about courtrooms, malpractice and a lawyer.
>> Allow me to let you in on a "dirty little secret" amongst the above
>> mentioned "cash cows".
>> They don't give a rats "behind" about health care of the poor and
>> disadvantaged.
>> Why?
>> Because those "cash cows" believe in the benevolence of the human
>> heart? Kid yourself not. It all comes down to personal economics. They
>> are of the opinion that money talks as they seceretly rape the economy
>> and people of America.
>> The "dirty little secret" mentioned earlier ...
>> the political "cash cows" as mentioned within the system ... many who
>> openly advocate a socialized health care system in this country ...
>> are covered by plans which the vast majority of citizens are refused
>> entry.
>> The remainder understand that "cash" talks ... and "cash" will cover
>> whatever medical attention they may require at any given time.
>> Do you fit into the "cash cows" as mentioned?
>> SoZ
> Nice triad but it doesn't change the FACTS.
SoZ:
The FACTS aren't as grotesque as you picture either.
Poor American in the
> richest country on the planet have NO MEDICAL COVERAGE AT ALL.....
SoZ:
Well ... can you show FACTS which indicate that medical coverage is a right?
> If we can afford NASA, paying trillions to save the Jew Bankers,
SoZ:
??? Something against jews??
wars in
> countries that never attacked us or threatened us in any way....
SoZ:
What history books have you been reading?
We can
> afford to care for EVERY AMERICAN who needs it.
SoZ:
No - it's just the opposite. America cannot afford to care for every
Americans needs.
Cutting off NASA's
> plans to populate the moon will easily pay for medical care for EVERY
> CHILD IN THE COUNTRY.....FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.
> Larry
SoZ:
In other words you want America to become a full time *nanny* state. Who's
going to pay for it?
SoZ
chloe
There is so much contrivance. Astounding costs in health care?
Could it be the emergency rooms that have to be "the doctor's
office"? They have to take it on, a "public" facility? Flooded by
those with no insurance. Why don't they have insurance? It's
fundamental.
You set up a household, there are basic expenses, amongst them are
insurance: car, life, health. It's basic. Don't have those, you
should be on your own. Got no money? Be serious. That's when
health care funding may need to kick in. Don't dare take away what
I've been paying for since I got my first job. Oh, by the way.
Get a bleeping job, a good one, they may have health care insurance
benefits, the premium will be deducted from your paycheck. That's
how it works. Saved my life, out of pocket was about $150,
insurance paid about $40,000. That is why I pay the premiums.
At what point did someone think you get everything for nuthin?
> >> Where does the blame lay ... on the "cash cow" insurance suppliers (as
> >> you refer to them) or your friend the medical professional. As the law
> >> stands this boy should not have been refused medical attention.
> >> Where has this scenario occured?
> > I won't say because that would identify my friend. It happens across
>
SwordoZ
"chloe" <go...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f3deab87-297f-4f79...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
SoZ:
One-sided contrivance?
Astounding costs in health care?
SoZ:
Who/What's the reason?
Could it be the emergency rooms that have to be "the doctor's
office"?
They have to take it on, a "public" facility?
SoZ:
What's the difference if one receives medical attention in an emergency room
or "doctor's office"?
Flooded by
those with no insurance.
SoZ:
Do you believe that's a problem?
Why don't they have insurance?
SoZ:
Many reasons. Loss of job, illegality, choice, govt dependency, laziness,
scam the system ... etc. etc.
It's fundamental.
You set up a household, there are basic expenses, amongst them are
insurance: car, life, health. It's basic.
Don't have those, you
should be on your own. Got no money?
Be serious. That's when
health care funding may need to kick in.
SoZ:
No problem with that ... but how do we get there ... on the backs of those
who stick to the "fundamental basics" ... through "big brother" dependancy?
Don't dare take away what
I've been paying for since I got my first job. Oh, by the way.
Get a bleeping job, a good one, they may have health care insurance
benefits, the premium will be deducted from your paycheck. That's
how it works.
SoZ:
Agree.
Saved my life, out of pocket was about $150,
insurance paid about $40,000. That is why I pay the premiums.
At what point did someone think you get everything for nuthin?
SoZ:
That's my point.
Mike Painter
>
> There is so much contrivance. Astounding costs in health care?
> Could it be the emergency rooms that have to be "the doctor's
> office"? They have to take it on, a "public" facility? Flooded by
> those with no insurance. Why don't they have insurance? It's
> fundamental.
to the ER after they get off work today. They will only take calls from
other doctors or the hospital but they *will* not talk to their patients.
>
> You set up a household, there are basic expenses, amongst them are
> insurance: car, life, health. It's basic. Don't have those, you
> should be on your own. Got no money? Be serious. That's when
> health care funding may need to kick in. Don't dare take away what
> I've been paying for since I got my first job. Oh, by the way.
> Get a bleeping job, a good one, they may have health care insurance
> benefits, the premium will be deducted from your paycheck. That's
> how it works. Saved my life, out of pocket was about $150,
> insurance paid about $40,000. That is why I pay the premiums.
> At what point did someone think you get everything for nuthin?
Your contribution, even if you have a "good job" is not significently more
than that of those who don't have "good jobs".
They are the ones who make your good job possible and allow you to eat, go
to movies, watch TV, and even call your doctor when you get sick.
Teresita
> Many Americans spend their last days in an intensive care unit,
> subjected to uncomfortable machines or surgeries to prolong their lives
> at enormous cost.
Spending $5,000 on a five dollar dog. Voters will love to hear that.
--
Teresita
http://hackylinux.blogspot.com/