One World

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz7qPJRhbo

On Nov 22, 5:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

It sucks.
Look at the video.....one world and then two worlds with one for
religion.
And it stated color people were of black and white....while the
reality of this world with yellow as majority didn't count.
Well, may be it's right that the East is mostly either atheists or
Buddhists(which is a philosophical religion without god.).
You are staying in a cocoon, knowing nothing outside US?

On Nov 22, 8:24 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I like the Bahai faith more than many others but lets face it:
1) They are just too nice - the Muslims and Christians will eventually
kill or convert them all.

2) They still suffer the fault of being a monotheism - some very
strong moral people seem able to resist its corrupting influence and
remain good people - but for humanity in general in the end its
poisonous to morality, antithetical to wisdom and an excuse for being
mean and callous to "the others".

"God" is just a very bad idea - and is not a uniting one but a
divisive force.

Mark.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:53:37 -0800 (PST), Richo

We've had Bahai loonies here before. Every bit as nasty as Christian
and Muslim ones after we don't want to hear their message that their
loony leader is everybody's.

Feel free to leave it just as soon as your booster
with 20,000 lb of rocket fuel is ready.                B^D

Well at least this time you managed to intuit the basic purpose!  B^)

Now, if you could just do that in life!    B^D

 > one world and then two worlds

Do you think it could be magic trick?

 > with one for religion.

I'm sure they can count, they had the largest economy on the
planet for 18 of the past 20 centuries, and it looks like they
will regain that status soon.

really?  What's a Deva?

@ "Buddhism speaks of ultimate reality as pure, spotless,
@ changeless Mind that is present in all things, all times,
@ and in all beings and which can never die. Kalu Rinpoche
@ elucidates: "...pure mind cannot be located, but it is
@ omnipresent and all-penetrating; it embraces and pervades
@ all things. Moreover, it is beyond change, and its open
@ nature is indestructible and atemporal."[3

      Now Who does that sound like? B^D

      But wait there is more..

@ "The text refers to Vairocana Buddha as the "Bhagavat" ("Blessed One,"
@ a term traditionally linked in Indian discourse with "the Divine"],
@ "Master of the Dharma, the Sage who is completely perfect, who is
@ all-pervasive, who encompasses all world systems, who is All-Knowing,
@ the Lord Vairocana".[13]
@
@ The Tantric text, The Sarva-Tathagata-Tattva-Samgraha,
@ characterizes Vairocana as follows:
@
@    He is universal Goodness, beneficial, destroyer [of suffering],
@    the great Lord of Happiness, sky womb, Great Luminosity
@    … the great All-perceiving Lord … He is without beginning or
@    end … [He is] Vishnu [God] … Protector of the world, the sky,
@    the earth … The elements, the good benefactor of beings,
@    All things … the Blessed Rest, Eternal … The Self of all
@    the Buddhas … Pre-eminent over all, and master of the world.
@
@ Similar God-like descriptions are encountered in the All-Creating King
@ Tantra (Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra), where the universal Mind of
@ Awakening (in its mode as "Samantabhadra Buddha") declares of
@ itself:[14]
@
@    I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that
@    exists. I am the cause of all that exists. I am the trunk
@    of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists.
@    I am the root of existence. I am ‘the core’ because I contain
@    all phenomena. I am ‘the seed’ because I give birth to everything.
@    I am ‘the cause’ because all comes from me. I am ‘the trunk’
@    because the ramifications of every event sprout from me.
@    I am ‘the foundation’ because all abides in me. I am called
@    ‘the root’ because I am everything."
@

Some of you Buddhist Atheists are really interesting!  B^)

@ Deva (Buddhism)
@ A deva (??? Sanskrit and Pali) in Buddhism is one of many
@ different types of non-human beings who share the
@ characteristics of being more powerful, longer-lived,
@ and, in general, living more contentedly than the
@ average human being.
@
@ Synonyms in other languages include Tibetan lha,
@ Chinese tian (?), Korean cheon, Japanese ten,
@ Vietnamese thiên. The concept of devas was adopted
@ in Japan partly because of the similarity with the
@ Shinto's concept of kami.
@
@ Other words used in Buddhist texts to refer to
@ similar supernatural beings are devata "deity" and
@ devaputra (Pali: devaputta) "son of the gods".
@
@
@ Powers of the devas
@
@ From a human perspective, devas share the characteristic
@ of being invisible to the physical human eye. The presence
@ of a deva can be detected by those humans who have opened
@ the divyacak?us (Pali: dibbacakkhu), an extrasensory power
@ by which one can see beings from other planes. Their
@ voices can also be heard by those who have cultivated
@ a similar power of the ear.
@
@ Most devas are also capable of constructing illusory
@ forms by which they can manifest themselves to the
@ beings of lower worlds; higher and lower devas even
@ have to do this between each other.
@
@ Devas do not require the same kind of sustenance as
@ humans do, although the lower kinds do eat and drink.
@ The higher sorts of deva shine with their own intrinsic
@ luminosity.
@
@ Devas are also capable of moving great distances speedily
@ and of flying through the air, although the lower devas
@ sometimes accomplish this through magical aids such as a
@ flying chariot."

        Do Atheists borrow these Magic Chariots on the weekends???

       BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAA

@ " Types of deva
@
@ The devas of the Arupyadhatu have no physical form or location,
@ and they dwell in meditation on formless subjects.

      Sounds like some Nappisan and Abu'Baker discussing
      probability!    B^)

@ "They do not interact with the rest of the universe."

    That is definitely some of the atheists in alt.atheistan!!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!

I don't live in the US.

Congratulations, you managed to make a whole post with not
a single correct thing in it...   amongst the adults in
Usenet this is unusual, but not out of line with the norm
in alt.atheism

"Islamic finance leads the way" eh?
(rotfl)

Are you Flakey Friedmanites still smarting over
the failure of your Fanatical Free market Fantasies?   B^D

Run along and play with your sub-prime derivatives,
the adults and I are discussing the next stage in
the evolution of the New World Economic Order.     B^)

I hear that the USSA is now looking to the only
large cash sources, the mammoth sovereign funds
of China and the Middle East, to bail out the still
plummeting World Markets,

  Deficit, Debt, Chaos and Panic, and only the Islamic
  world and China can possibly provide the global stimulus
  necessary to lessen the impact of the Global Depression.

  As the Market pundits themselves say, BJ, your Invisible
  Hand of the Market is a cruel and capricious God, Moloch,
  - the First International Bank of the Golden Calf, and
  it's nothing but Greed followed by Fear.

  All the 'economists' (the only profession that gets paid for
  serially being wrong) now bleat endlessly about 'Confidence'
  and 'hope' in the market finally turning..

  Faith Hope and Confidence.. sounds like a Spiritual Solution
  is required for the Economic Problem, eh?     B^D

BTW have you discovered that Capitalism existed before 1964, yet?   B^D

# Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:28:16 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Subject: Desperate Friedmanite Fool claims Capitalism was *defined*
#          in 1964!!!!  ..by Ayn Rand!
# BWAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHAAAA!   Re: ""CAPITALISM APPEARS TO BE DEAD
# IN THE US"  - B.J. Foster assesses the scope of the Calamity 8^o
# Re: Wall Street's Dead Cat Bounce on news of re-regulation
# and more Market Socialism!
# Re: AIG Bail out fails to Calm Wall Street - another 4% fall
#  - Bush stops pretending 'fundamentals are fine"
# WasRe: Your Super crumbling because of the global crisis
# caused by corrupt merchant bankers Howard and Bush's watch
# Message-ID: <48f198fe$0$31802$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# B J Foster wrote:
# >
# > This is from the person who basically defined capitalism:
# >
# > "When I say 'capitalism', I mean a full, pure,
# > uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a
# > separation of state and economics, in the same way and for
# > the same reasons as the separation of state and
# > church" (Ayn Rand, 1964)
#
#
# 'Capitalism' was *defined* in 1964??????????
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!
#
#       .....  by Ayn Rand!!???
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!
#
# And here's the rest of us thinking it must have been around at
# least as early as Marx's critique!!!!!
#
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAA!
#
# And when you read that drivel it makes it clear that
# as Randism (Bj's denomination of Capitalist beliefs) defines
# it as "separation of state and economics"  and there is
# no place on the planet where government and
# economy are not inextricably linked.. then I am right..
# there are many mixed economies, and BJ's 'Capitalism'
#
#         ....EXISTS NOWHERE IN THE REAL WORLD!   B^D

But while you were quoting Ayn Rand as the Creator
of Modern Capitalism [snicker} I had already told you
about the Spiritual Solution to the economic problem,
many times before:

#########

# Subject: Overcoming Greed and Fear
#
# Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:09:19 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
# Newsgroups: aus.politics,aus.invest,alt.politics.republicans,
# alt.politics.democrats,soc.culture.australian,uk.politics.misc
# Message-ID: <48f8aa93$0$31806$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# Overcoming Greed and FEAR
#
# It's not a WAR on Greed as some hysterical Chicken Littles
# would have you believe..  we have had enough of "WAR"s on
# things... it's a global co-operative shift in values and attitudes.
#
# Economic rationalism, as it is known in Australia, or neo-Liberal
# economics in the USSA, is finished.
#
#     Exuberant Greed followed by Exuberant Fear has killed it.
#
#
# "The presidential election is just three weeks away
# and for Barack Obama and John McCain the challenge
# is obvious: explain to voters why the United States
# seems to be leading the world into recession while
# at the same time offering a plan for survival.
#
# It’s a difficult balancing act particularly since
# many Americans are outraged that the Government’s
# trillion dollar rescue plan for the financial
# industry won’t save people with mortgages.
#
# In New Jersey, Tracy Bowden meets Marcia and
# Larry Klioze who, having spent a year trying to
# avoid foreclosure, are now accepting the inevitable
# – they will lose their home.
#
# They’re angry and embarrassed and plan to express
# themselves on the fourth of November when they’ll
# vote in the presidential and congressional elections.
#
# Across the Hudson River in Manhattan, Bowden catches
# the subway with veteran trader Ted Weisberg as he goes
# to work on the floor of the NYSE.
#
# Weisburg says “greed” and “fear” have brought the near
# collapse of the markets where he’s spent his working life."
#
#
# Greed and Fear are what the Australian Prime Minister
# has said we need to address..  this suggests that what is
# required is as much about changes in values and behaviour,
# as they are about changes in regulation or the level
# of Socialist intervention..  these are Spiritual matters;
#
# "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
#
#       - http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
#
#    "The most despised of men before God is he who
#      sits and begs. ...
#      The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
#      calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
#     kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
#
#            - Baha'u'llah
#
# You can't pull out ONE bit because you like it, and leave
# others..it's a package.
#
# The duty each person has to develop their skills and
# capacities to make a living so that they are a blessing,
# not a burden, to their community, is to be carried out in
# an environment of equity, fairness, and justice, ..
# dealing with honesty and integrity with a concern for the
# community.
#
# If these values are not right, no economic or political
# superstructure will be successful.
#
#
# Education for the Next generation of Brokers, Bankers
# and Regulators:
#
#        http://www.virtuesproject.com/entry2.html
#
#
# 'Adopt as your fundamental creed that you will equip
# yourself for life, not solely for your own benefit,
# but for the benefit of the whole community'
#
#           - Sir John Monash,  1923
#
# I believe this crisis is going to cause a significant
# re-think about these fundamental matters, not just
# among Americans, bu across the entire world.
#
# This is a Global crisis..  the response, much more than
# in the 1920's, will see global co-operation create
# global solutions.
#
#
#   ---------
#
#          "Ohhhhh Say can you see
#                By the dawns early light
#           The markets in panic
#               and Republicans take flight! "
#
#   ---------
#
#
#     "The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong"  - John McSame,
#    Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
#    Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
#
#     http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
#
#
#   ---------

#########

# Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:11:59 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Subject: "M.L. King's dream realised in the election of Obama"
#  Re: -" I Have a Dream"  - The Beginning of the Fulfilment
#  of the Vision
# Message-ID: <491298c2$0$4450$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#

#  >
 ># I Have a Dream
 >#
 ># http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream
 >#
 ># "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up
 ># and live out the true meaning of its creed:
 ># 'We hold these truths to be self-evident,
 >#  that all men are created equal.'"
#
#
#
# "King's dream realised in the election of Obama"
#      - The Age 6/11/2008  -  PM Rudd seconding my Post!
#
# "Mr Rudd said Senator Obama inspired America and brought a
# message of hope for a world which in many respects feared
# for its future."
#
#     When you listen to Economist and Market Insiders, Corporate
#     Chiefs and heads of Financial Institutions, talk about the
#     Global Economic Crisis  they speak more of INTANGIBLE
#     EMOTIONS than they do about technical matters.. the Credit
#     Crisis is fundamentally about FEAR, unwillingness to TRUST..
#     The stock market is in it's FEAR cycle, FEAR stops consumers
#     from spending, and investors from launching new ventures..
#     And here we have a President who INSPIRES HOPE!
#
#     It's what Religion traditionally provides, and Barrack
#     Hussein Obama IS a Believer..  not a sectarian divider,
#     but a Uniter.
#
#     The need for a SPIRITUAL SOLUTION to the economic problem
#     has never been more stark and clear..  and with the Market
#     numb with FEAR   ....cometh the man!
#
#     Calm, confident, measured..  he inspires hope and that
#     is the antidote to the FEAR which Grips MOLOCH, the
#     idol of Greed which the Market has been worshipping!  ;-)
#
#     Someone asked in another thread about Prayer.
#
#     Prayer is answered when we still our minds, ...consult our
#     spirit, discern what is required, and act to bring it
#     about.   Americans have done that, and chosen the man who,
#     when he speaks, eases their fear with his calm reason,
#     his rational thought, his deep understanding of the problem
#     and his FAITH that TOGETHER it can be solved!
#     It's not Magic, people actually have to ACT on the hope,
#     and make it concrete and real, but the first step is
#     'casting out the demon' of FEAR.   B^)
#
#     THIS is a LEADER.
# ...

read more »

Like the Christians, vastly outnumbered, were wiped out within
two centuries of Christ's crucifixion?  ;-)

Do you really understand so little about the dynamics of faith, Richo?

Death won't stop them and the the fear of it doesn't convert them:

20,000 Babi's were wiped out in Persia.

The Bab was executed, and a mob tore his body to pieces,
dedicated followers secretly removed his remains to where
they are now interred;

   http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/y300.jpg

   http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/x860.jpg

   http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/y110.jpg

Bahai's have still been tortured and killed, in Iran,
but nothing can extinguish their faith...

It has spread from there to be the second most geographically
dispersed religion, after Christianity. It is so influential
that the emancipation of women and the development of
global governance have taken place during it's formative stage..
before it's own global administration was constructed.

http://www.bahaipictures.com/hd/y200a.jpg

http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/p50.jpg

   Too nice to survive?    B^D

   These folk look like they are here to stay!   B^D

   Look, The Soviet NKVD and Mao's Red Guard atheists were
   tough   bastards, so were the nazis..  where are they now?

   But the Buddhists are still around.     B^D

Baha'u'llah, like Siddharta, was born into the ruling elite,
a position in the Shah's ministry was his for the asking,
he chose instead to be a friend to the poor.

He was thrown into the Siyyah Chal 'The Black Pit' a dungeon
with only one entrance, stairs leading down, no light, no
toilets and no drains.  Around his neck was placed a chain so heavy
it left it's mark upon his body for life.

It was in this foul pit that he experienced revelation, and it is
described in Bahai texts.

He was dragged into exile in Akka, under the control of the
corrupt Ottoman empire..  his cell was upper right;

http://www.bahaullah.org/akka/imposing-citadel/

These are the gardens at Bahji, the Shrine of Baha'u'llah;

http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/p40.jpg
http://www.bahaipictures.com/pic/x720.jpg

Abdu'l Baha, Baha'u'llah's son, so won over the prison
Authorities and the city authorities that the British
Occupying forces knighted him for his service to the
Palestinians...   the Muslims who had exiled and jailed his family.

When he died thousands of Christians, Muslims and Jews wept at
his funeral.

All that you see about a persecuted refugee people forging
an embryonic global civilisation, derives from the Spiritual
force of the Messenger of God, and his servants.

Even while in prison his reputation travelled far, and Tolstoy
wrote, "The Key to World Peace is in the hand of the prisoner of Akka."

Nothing has, or can, impede the faith of God.

  "By the righteousness of God! Should they cast Him
   into a fire kindled on the continent, He will
   assuredly rear His head in the midmost heart of
   the ocean and proclaim:
     "He is the Lord of all that are in heaven and
      all that are on earth!"
   And if they cast Him into a darksome pit,
   they will find Him seated on earth's loftiest
   heights calling aloud to all mankind:
    "Lo, the Desire of the World is come in His majesty,
     His sovereignty, His transcendent dominion!"
And if He be buried beneath the depths of the earth,
His Spirit soaring to the apex of heaven shall
peal the summons:
   "Behold ye the coming of the
    Glory; witness ye the Kingdom of God, the Most Holy,
    the Gracious, the All-Powerful!"
And if they shed His blood, every drop thereof shall
cry out and invoke God in this Name through which the
fragrance of His raiment hath been diffused in all directions."

    - Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 60

There are now millions of Bahais...

Bahai children in Iran are still refused entry to university,
they must flee their homeland if they wish to be educated,
their parents are excluded from government office, or the
armed forces..  They ARE citizens, some of the most educated,
before the Revolution, but they have no rights.

These abuses are well documented and have been the subject of UN
condemnation.

     http://question.bahai.org/002_2.php

My friend, an elderly woman, was tortured in a Teheran jail
and still walks with signs of her injury where they used the bastinado,
beating the soles of the feet with clubs.

All she had to do to be released was renounce her faith and
become a Muslim.  Her only 'crime' was being a Bahai.

She was lucky, and was released, escaped from Iran and brought
her children to Australia as a refugee. Her son is now an Academic
here, and she is not hostile to Islam, which you would understand
if you know Bahai beliefs, but invites Muslim University students
in her block of flats to dinner.

I wonder what they think when they see her framed photographs
of the Bahai temples. Of course, outside of Iran, many educated
Muslims are not hostile to Bahais.  It is not a religious conflict,
but a persecution by political/religious bigots.

Here is why the Bahai will neither be converted, nor eradicated;

This is Muna, she was 17 when she was executed.. for teaching
Bahai children's classes ..  "Sunday School" to us.

http://question.bahai.org/images/high/Muna_Muhmudnizhad_NN4951_14.jpg

"During the second stage of Mona's interrogation she
was awakened at four o'clock in the morning and
transferred an hour later by automobile to the place
of interrogation. The session lasted most of the day.
She was asked the same questions that she had been
asked over and over again at Seppah about her beliefs.

   "I told them that I believed in God and all his
   messengers who had revealed a Holy Book and that
   we consider them all to be Messengers of God.
   The Assistant to the Public Prosecutor said,
   'You are accused of being a member of the Zionist
   movement, who are spies.' In reply, I told him
   that Baha'is have nothing to do with politics.
   On the other hand, the state of Israel was founded
   only 32 years ago, while the Baha'i Faith was
   founded 139 years ago. We only have spiritual
   organizations which have nothing to do with politics.
   He said, 'There remains only one way for you,
   you should either recant the Faith or you will
   be executed.' I said I would rather be executed."

THE THIRD STAGE OF INTERROGATION

The final formal interrogation took place a
few days later. Again, Mona was taken away at 5 am.
This time she met with the Islamic Revolutionary Judge,
who handled all of the Baha'i cases in Shiraz.
While the interrogation was the shortest that
she underwent, in many ways it was the most dramatic.

The Judge, after insulting her a long time,
told her that her parents had deceived and
misled her and accused her of following them
without being aware of what she was doing.
She replied,

  "Although I was born in a Baha'i family,
   according to Baha'i principles, we have to
   search for the truth ourselves rather than
   imitate our family's ideas and that is
   exactly what I have done. You have many of our
   Baha'i books here and you could read them and
   find this out for yourself. They never insisted
   on my becoming a Baha'i or accepting their ideas.
   If Your Honour insists that I recant my Faith,
   I should assure you that I will never do that
   and that I am ready to be executed."

The Judge was shocked at that point and looked
at her angrily, saying, "You are just a child.
How could you possibly know the real meaning
of the word Faith? " Mona replied,

  "What more proof do you need than that I was
   dragged out of school and put in jail and now,
   for many months, have endured all these
   interrogations for the sake of my religion.
   What else but my Faith could give me the
   strength and power to stand here in front
   of you and answer your Questions."

Then the Judge asked her to pray and she replied,
"I cannot do that." The judge asked her,
"What do you mean?" and Mona pointed out,
"You would have to sit respectfully, with your
hands folded on your chest before I would
recite a prayer ." At first, the Judge refused,
but after awhile, as though spellbound by her
spiritual character, he complied with her wish
and she recited the prayer:

  "O God, refresh and gladden my spirit.
   Purify my heart. Illumine my powers.
   I lay all my affairs in Thy hand.
   Though art My Guide and My Refuge.
   I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved.
   I will be a happy and joyful being.
   O God, I will no longer be full of anxiety,
   nor will I let trouble harass me.
   I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

   "O God, Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself.
   I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord."

When Mona had finished reciting the prayer the puzzled
Judge asked her , "Why did you not chant it?" To which
Mona replied, "I only chant from my heart and when I
am alone, not in front of you." The Judge was deeply
moved and said, "In the night when you and your father
were arrested, the revolutionary guards brought back
lots of tapes of your chanting. You are accused of
misleading youth with your beautiful voice and chanting.
Now I am sure about the charges against you."
Mona replied,
   "Your Honour, is chanting, praying
    and repeating the verses of God a crime?"

He said, "Child, what is wrong with Islam that you
have became a Baha'i?" She explained,

  "The foundation of all religions are one, but according
   to the circumstances, after some period of time a new
   prophet is assigned by God to guide mankind. But if you
   are trying to force me to become a Muslim, I should say
   that nothing is wrong with Islam. But its followers do
   not know anything but killing and
...

read more »

Who were the nicest, the Romans and their Colosseum, or the
Christians they fed to their lions?

Now..   who won..  who has endured and conquered?  ;-)

Who were the nicest, a handful of Bahai refugees who built
a Temple in remote Ashkabad, or the Atheist tyranny
which stole it, defiled it and persecuted the believers?

That atheist regime is gone, consigned to the dustbin of
History for totalitarian shitholes, and the Bahai faith
has spread worldwide and prospered.

 >> the Muslims and Christians will eventually

The Christians have never attacked Bahais as the
ignorant and barbarous Atheist savages did!  8^o

  > We've had Bahai loonies here before.

So your initial hostility to me asking questions like;
"Why are there no great enduring Atheist civilisations?" and
"Why are the only three Atheist regimes in history all brutal
totalitarian regimes responsible for 40,000,000 dead?" was not just
your angry embarrassment at being confronted with the horrors of Atheist
dogma, but also your stereotypes and prejudice!

Thanks for the heads up, we can now see the irrational basis
of mindless hate on which you Atheists persecuted the Bahai
last century, and intend to do the same now;

Atheists, celebrating a Hundred Years of crimes against religious
believers and human rights abuses;

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4IMeKsxNr7c

   "O HEEDLESS ONES!
    Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay,
    know ye of a certainty that in clear characters
    they are engraved and are openly manifest in the
    holy Presence."

      - Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words

Is that why you expropriate temples and persecute believers and
then pretend you believe in Free speech and complain if a an
advertising company pulls your billboard because you are disliked?

I defend your right to go out an buy a billboard and put whatever you
like on it, just as I defend the right for Bahai to build a beautiful
place of worship without having Atheist savages and irrational medieval
barbarians expropriate it under totalitarian state oppression and
persecution of beliefs you don't like and cannot rebut with logic and
reason.

40,000,000 victims of Atheist rule - scratch an atheist, find a monster.

 > that their loony leader is everybody's.

Unlike your loonie Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, the Bahai insist
there must be no compulsion in religion, they will never steal your
property and persecute you as you Atheists have done to them.

They were refugees from horrific persecution and the Godless
and heartless Atheists INCREASED their persecution and suffering..

What cowards! What base moral defectives!  What irrational thugs!

Let us hope that modern Atheists can turn away from the path of hatred
and violence, and learn how to get along with everyone else, for a change.

Shalom and Salaam

"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."

    - Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 116

The Promise of World Peace:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhiC_2yh_A

On Nov 23, 4:56 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Let us hope that people can turn away from the path of hatred and
violence whatever their level of superstitious belief.

Mark.

On Nov 23, 1:19 pm, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Many religions have arisen and gone extinct.
Christianity won the lottery when it became the official religion of
the Roman Empire - history could have easily taken a different turn.
Don't confuse chaos with destiny.

I understand more than some, less than others. A bit like my knowledge
of butterflies.

I am sure the Norsemen felt the same about Thor and Freya.

I know - it is a terrible history.

Not yet.

After all the persecution by the believers in "the one true God" isn't
it peculiar that people don't begin to suspect that there is
something.... unhealthy in the idea of "the one true God"?

You are right about me - I don't understand faith.

Mark.

[snips]

Since the Romans stopped doing that around 313, while the Christians went
on to spend the next 1700 years killing, torturing and persecuting
others, arguably the Romans were the nicer bunch.

Considering that there are an estimated 2 billion Christians - many of
whom we can, based on several reports of people doing just this -
conclude are only "Christian" in the sense of going to church on Sunday,
rather than buying into the crap, and considering the world population is
some 6.7 billion people, one could argue it is _not_ the Christians, but
rather, everyone else.

I assume you mean the temple in Ashkhabad, Russia.  Confiscated in 1910.  
Hmm.  1910.  Hmm.  1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The
Martyr).  Also known as "Saint Nicholas the Passion Bearer".  Not the
nicest guy, to be sure, but also a devout religious fellow, from the
looks of things.  Devout enough to be canonized as a martyr.  Hmm...

"Despite the original opposition the Russian Orthodox Church inside
Russia ultimately recognised the family as "passion bearers," or people
who met their deaths with Christian humility."

Not sure exactly what part of that qualifies him as an atheist.

The atheist regime headed by a rampant Christian theist.

Indeed.  As of 2005, Bahai's numbered a whopping 0.12% of the world
population.  Assuming the world population in 2005 was about 6 billion
even, that makes for some 7.2 million of them worldwide.  Making them, by
the way, one of the smallest religious groups represented, with others
being Confucianists (0.10%), Jains (0.07%) and Shintoists (0.04%).  By
contrast, atheists numbered some 2.35%, or about 20 times as populous -
and that despite a long historical impetus *not* to be identified as
atheist.

Well, apart from taking over their temple, as we saw above.  Then again,
that was the only incident I bothered looking into - just how sure are
you it's the only incident at all?

One might ask where the great enduring civilizations of *any sort* are.  
See many Romans around?  No?  How about Hellenistic Greeks?  No?  Hmm.  
Ra-worshipping Egyptians?  No?  What about all the central and southern
american civilizations?  Nope, they're gone, too.  

A few remain, in somewhat tattered clothes left from years gone by.  The
British Empire today pales in comparison to what it once was.  The
Vikings, who held sway and could demand tributes from even the most
powerful empires of their day, are largely gone.  The few places which
have managed to survive for lengthy periods are, on the whole, not what
one would consider "great" - I note a distinct lack of people moving
from, say, the US into certain arid regions in the Middle East, for
example.

So where are the "great enduring" civilizations of *any* sort?  They
seem, on the whole, to simply not exist.  Since you keep harping upon the
issue of *atheist* civilizations not enduring one must conclude that you
have a long list of shining examples of *theist* civilizations which have
endured in greatness.  Do, please, trot them out.

I'm sorry, I am unaware of _any_ atheist regimes in history.  I suspect
you're thinking of things such as Stalinist Russia, to which the only
sensible response would have to be "Are you fucking insane?"

That regime was no more an atheistic regime than it was a regime of
moustaches.  Even the most trivial reading of the man's actions are
sufficient to demonstrate that his call was to power and that he was not
above eliminating anyone who challenged that - communists, the poor, and
yes, many a priest.  

What this has to do with atheism, though, is far from clear, particularly
as Christianity (among other religions) has produced an endless stream of
people with similar calls to power - and has also produced many similar
acts of attempted eradication.

Hmm.  This video refers to the taking over of the temple in 1938, which
would be under Stalin.

I must say, I find it curious that you focus so much on how the atheists
took it over, but don't seem in the *least* put out by an avowedly
*Christian* leader doing the exact same thing, 28 years earlier.

Huh?  That makes no sense.  Someone *removed* a billboard put up under
the ideals of freedom of speech, it was taken down, and protesting that
action is somehow *against* freedom of speech?

Well, that makes as much sense as the religious idiots who cry
"persecution" when someone reacts to millenia of discrimination by saying
"no more".

Actually, you just defended the _removing_ of such a billboard.

One more time: this has nothing to do with atheism, nor does it have to
do with moustaches.  Try engaging your brain for a change; your seething
hatred of all things atheist is causing you to drool and spew falsehoods.

Really?  Could you kindly point out *one* victim of atheist rule?  Yes,
there are many who died as a result of totalitarianism... but religions
have hardly been immune to that, so whatever your gripe is, it's not with
atheism.  Presumably it's with totalitarianism, but you don't actually
seem to be quite smart enough to figure that out.

Really?  Could you kindly point out *one* instance where atheists (as
some sort of group, or government; I'm quite willing to agree there are
crazy atheistic _individuals_, as there are crazies in every walk of
life) have stolen from or persecuted the religious?  Yes, we're aware of
a *totalitarian* regime doing these things, just as we are of *religious*
totalitarianism doing these things, but that would mean the issue is with
totalitarianism, not with atheism - but you don't actually seem to be
quite smart enough to figure that out.

Really?  Could you kindly point out *one* instance where atheists (as
some sort of group, or government; I'm quite willing to agree there are
crazy atheistic _individuals_, as there are crazies in every walk of
life) have persecuted the refugees?  Yes, we're aware of a *totalitarian*
regime doing these things, just as we are of *religious* totalitarianism
doing these things, but that would mean the issue is with
totalitarianism, not with atheism - but you don't actually seem to be
quite smart enough to figure that out.

You mean people who blame atheism for things having nothing to do with
atheism?  Yes, they are cowards.  Stupid, too, as anyone with even the
most passing ability to read can see at a glance that such notions are
bizarrely misinformed.

So, aside from announcing your hatred of atheism - and your presumably
incurable stupidity - to the world, what exactly was the point of your
post?

fasgnadh, you are a disgrace to the Faith you claim to defend.
In a tablet to Mirza Abu’l-Fadl, starting at
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/SWA4/swa4-235.html,
Abdu’l-Baha sets the standard:

    “I adjure you by the Ancient Beauty not to insult anyone or wish
humiliation on any soul. ...
    “Do not argue with anyone nor engage in disputation. Do not wish
any person’s degradation, nor mention their name in fault. Do not seek
anybody’s loss and do not loosen your tongue to an unkind description
of any man. ... "(draft translation by Ahang Rabbani)

In the long term, the interests of the Faith, and of humanity, will be
served by living up to this standard.

Now, lets try to inject a little rationality into the discussion.
1) It is true that all the states which have been officially atheist
have been totalitarian regimes, and usually brutal: North Korea, the
USSR especially under Stalin, Albania under Enver Hoxha, Cambodia
under the Khmer Rouge, China especially under Mao.
2) However, the same could be said of all states with an official
ideology: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Spain, today's Iran and
Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser degree McCarthyist USA, Turkey (less
today than in the past). This is not very surprising: how do we define
a totalitarian regime? One that regulates nearly every aspect of
public and private life, maintaining its political power by means of
an official all-embracing ideology. (thanks to wikipedia:
totalitarianism). A totalitarian regime without a state ideology is
impossible, and every state with a state ideology is bound to limit at
least what people may do and say, and seek to control what they think
and teach their children.

The correct analysis, which covers both the case of the USSR, Catholic-
fascist Italy, and Shiah-theocratic Iran is that the brutality is due
to having a state ideology, and therefore needing to defend it.
Evidently, it makes no difference whether the state ideology enforces
a particular religion, or is atheist or says nothing about religion.
The mere fact of the state's intrusion into the world of thought and
conscience makes it totalitarian, and forces it to be to some degree
oppressive.

" [To insure] freedom of conscience and tranquility of heart and soul
is one of the duties and functions of government, and is in all ages
the cause of progress in development and ascendency over other lands.
Other civilized countries acquired not this preeminence, nor attained
unto these high degrees of influence and power, till such time as they
put away the strife of sects out of their midst, and dealt with all
classes according to one standard. All are one people, one nation, one
species, one kind."
        (Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 87)

He goes on, over several pages, to give examples of countries that
suffered when their governments interfered in matters of conscience,
and contrasts this to the progress of European states once they had
established the principle of freedom of conscience (this was written
circa 1886).

Since it is interference in matters of conscience that makes a state
backwards and brutal, there is no justification for attempting to hang
the crimes of the communist USSR on modern atheists, or the crimes of
Fascist Spain on modern Catholics, or the crimes of today's Iran on
the Shiah. The only people -- outside the regimes themselves -- who
bear responsibility as apologists and facilitators of such crimes, are
those who advocate a state ideology, whatever that ideology may be.

fasgnadh, you are a disgrace to the Faith you claim to defend.
In a tablet to Mirza Abu’l-Fadl, starting at
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/SWA4/swa4-235.html,
Abdu’l-Baha sets the standard:

    “I adjure you by the Ancient Beauty not to insult anyone or wish
humiliation on any soul. ...
    “Do not argue with anyone nor engage in disputation. Do not wish
any person’s degradation, nor mention their name in fault. Do not seek
anybody’s loss and do not loosen your tongue to an unkind description
of any man. ... "(draft translation by Ahang Rabbani)

In the long term, the interests of the Faith, and of humanity, will be
served by living up to this standard.

Now, lets try to inject a little rationality into the discussion.
1) It is true that all the states which have been officially atheist
have been totalitarian regimes, and usually brutal: North Korea, the
USSR especially under Stalin, Albania under Enver Hoxha, Cambodia
under the Khmer Rouge, China especially under Mao.
2) However, the same could be said of all states with an official
ideology: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Spain, today's Iran and
Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser degree McCarthyist USA, Turkey (less
today than in the past). This is not very surprising: how do we define
a totalitarian regime? One that regulates nearly every aspect of
public and private life, maintaining its political power by means of
an official all-embracing ideology. (thanks to wikipedia:
totalitarianism). A totalitarian regime without a state ideology is
impossible, and every state with a state ideology is bound to limit at
least what people may do and say, and seek to control what they think
and teach their children.

The correct analysis, which covers both the case of the USSR, Catholic-
fascist Italy, and Shiah-theocratic Iran is that the brutality is due
to having a state ideology, and therefore needing to defend it.
Evidently, it makes no difference whether the state ideology enforces
a particular religion, or is atheist or says nothing about religion.
The mere fact of the state's intrusion into the world of thought and
conscience makes it totalitarian, and forces it to be to some degree
oppressive.

" [To insure] freedom of conscience and tranquility of heart and soul
is one of the duties and functions of government, and is in all ages
the cause of progress in development and ascendency over other lands.
Other civilized countries acquired not this preeminence, nor attained
unto these high degrees of influence and power, till such time as they
put away the strife of sects out of their midst, and dealt with all
classes according to one standard. All are one people, one nation, one
species, one kind."
        (Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 87)

He goes on, over several pages, to give examples of countries that
suffered when their governments interfered in matters of conscience,
and contrasts this to the progress of European states once they had
established the principle of freedom of conscience (this was written
circa 1886).

Since it is interference in matters of conscience that makes a state
backwards and brutal, there is no justification for attempting to hang
the crimes of the communist USSR on modern atheists, or the crimes of
Fascist Spain on modern Catholics, or the crimes of today's Iran on
the Shiah. The only people -- outside the regimes themselves -- who
bear responsibility as apologists and facilitators of such crimes, are
those who advocate a state ideology, whatever that ideology may be.

http://images0.cafepress.com/product/328295920v5_350x350_Front.jpg

"What? You expect me to say something snarky about Christmas just
because I'm an atheist?
Sorry, but I've got better shit to do.
Like grow my beard out."

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
            - V.I. Lenin

“There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience.
A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.”
            - V.I. Lenin)

“The World has never before known a godlessness as organized,
militarized and tenaciously malevolent as that preached by Marxism.
Within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart
of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force,
more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions.
Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist
policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve
its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid
of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction
of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of these objectives
openly, and just as openly put them into practice.”
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn)

 >> Shalom and Salaam
 >>
 >>
 >> "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."
 >>
 >>    - Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 116
 >>
 >>
 >> The Promise of World Peace:
 >> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhiC_2yh_A
 >>
 >>
 >>

Kelsey Bjarnason, Atheist LIAR, Making Pravda proud;

Modern Atheists demonstrate that the links between them and
the Atheist propagandists and Red Terror of the Soviet Union
remain strong;

You are not dealing with ancient texts of unknown authenticity here,
Comrade Bjarnyard, this is HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT, that your lies
cannot eradicate:

"Baha'i House of Worship - Ashkabad, Central Asia

House of Worship in Ashkabad Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House
of Worship served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government. The building was
demolished in 1962 after being damaged by an earthquake.

The Ashkhabad House of Worship was in many ways ahead of its time. In
addition to serving as a spiritual center for the thriving Bahá'í
community in that region, it gave practical expression to the
community's humanitarian ideas. Attached to it were a number of
subsidiaries, including a hospital, a school, and a hostel for travelers."

http://www.bahai.us/bahai-temple-ashkabad

 > 1910, that would have been under Nicholas II (The Martyr).

No, Tovarish, your Days or Orwellian rewrites of History from
the Soviet Ministry of truth are over!

Under the Russians, the Bahai, as refugees from fierce persecution
in Persia, where 20,000 were martyred, were given protection by
Tsar Nicholas and allowed to build their temple. The Tsar's
military governor of Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich,
LAID THE FOUNDATION STONE..!!!!!!!     B^D
   ..of the building which your Soviet Comrades expropriated

                       IN 1938!!     B^p

  "Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
   the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first
   time anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established"
     - see below

Your credibility is in tatters, your motivation as a malign traducer
of innocent people persecuted by a vicious Atheist Totalitarian regime
is revealed. You owe me, the Bahai, and the dead Russian Tsar and
his representatives  an abject apology for your slander.

But I doubt a creature of your degree of moral defect will ever have the
the integrity to apologise.

What could be clearer than the experience of this tiny refugee community
of harmless believers, sheltered by a Christian, and persecuted by the
filthy Atheist Soviets, just like the backward and violent
fundamentalist Mullahs had done!!

Islamofascists and Soviet Atheists..
     ..Two sides of the same intolerant, false and oppressive coin!  B^[

Liar.

“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
        - Vladimir I. Lenin

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
   -  E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
      Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940

There is no end to the FALSE DOGMA which BLIND and IRRATIONAL
Atheists cling to!!!

Atheists have not changed since the days of the Red Terror and
Pravda - "All The Lies that are unfit to Print"

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
      - V.I. Lenin

---------

"In a previous chapter , the foundation of the Bahá'i
community in Ishqábád has been described.
Under the protection and freedom given by the Russian authorities,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the number of Bahá'is there rose to over l,000 and for the first time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anywhere in the world a true Bahá'i community was established, with its
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
own schools, medical facilities, cemetery, etc. Eventually the Bahá'is
in 'Ishqábád decided to build the institution that Bahá'u'lláh has
ordained as the spiritual and social heart of the Baká'i community, d.
Mashriqu'l-Adhkár (Dawning Place of the Praises of God) (see fig. 45)

A Russian official who was in 'Ishqábád at this time, A. D. Kalmykov
(q.v.), has recorded in his memoirs:

     This harmless, progressive, liberal sect was founded by the Bab,
     who was shot in Tabriz in 1850, close to the wall of the citadel
     at a place which I tried in vain to locate. The Babis were
     persecuted in Persia in my time and had to conceal their faith;
     I had never met them there. They came to Russia and even spread
     to America, where they were called Baha'i.

     The Babis in Ashkhabad formed a closely knit community of honest,
     law-abiding people, somewhat reminiscent of the early Christian
      churches in the first century after Christ. The great event in the
      life of the Babi colony was the arrival of Hadji Mirza M.Taghi,*
      a Babi chief, and nephew of Bab, from Yezd, Persia in 1902.
      A rich, wise, kind old man of Biblical appearance and dressed in
      floating Oriental garments, he looked like one of the Magi who came
      to Bethlehem to adore the birth of Christ. Hadji MirzaM. Taghi had
      been consular agent for Russia, England, and France in his native
      town for many years. Although widely respected, he was finally
      forced to leave by persecution which continuously increased in
      violence. I had been informed beforehand about his arrival, and he
      was warmly recommended to me by my friend and future
      brother-in-law, Dr D. M. Vinogradov, who had visited him in Yezd.

     After being welcomed with due reverence by all the Babi community
     of Ashkhabad and meeting with a hospitable reception on the part
     of the Russian authorities, Hadji Mirza M. Taghi decided to settle
     in Ashkhabad and, as the crowning act of his long religious life,
     to build there a beautiful Babi temple, the first on the continent
     of Asia. He lived in a very simple manner but spared no money for
     the completion of the temple or the cause of his religion.

     I presented Hadji Mirza M. Taghi to military governor of
     Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich, who agreed to lay the
     corner-stone of the Babi temple. It was an impressive ceremony,
     this Russian recognition of Babism as an established religion at a
     moment when hundreds of Babis were being slaughtered in Persia.
     The Bab community presented General Subotich with a picture by the
     famous calligrapher Meshkin Kalam, representing a bird on a tree.
     The picture was formed with the letters composing the verse,
     'On the Tree of Eternity sits the Bird of Truth repeating:
     "He (God) is one, is one, is one." '

     Although the Babis in Ashkhabad kept the outward appearance of
     old-fashioned Moslems, their conceptions were entirely different.
     Babi women visited European families and enjoyed a freedom unknown
     at that time in Moslem countries. The Babishad a small book called
     Kitabi Siossieh (The Book of Behavior). They considered that each
     man had a divine spark which must be kept pure during his lifetime
     in order to ascend to heaven. The Babis in Ashkhabad presented
     various stages of evolution, ranging from a purely Oriental to a
     European way of life. However, they retained their Persian attire,
     whereas in European Russia they wore western clothes. I was glad to
     hear that after the revolution the persecution of Babis ceased in
     Persia, and I have no doubt that they will prove to be excellent
     Persian citizens. They are certainly good examples of what may
     become of a Persian liberated from the suffocating atmosphere
     of an old decaying past."

     *Haji Mirza Muhammad-Taqi, the Afnan (q.v.,see fig.45)

      http://lavezzo.com/Ashkabad/p442.html

Laying of the foundation stone by the Tsar's military governor of
Transcaspia, General D. I. Subotich

http://lavezzo.com/Ashkabad/images/fig45.jpg

Construction of the temple:

   http://lavezzo.com/Ashkabad/starp153.html

This concept of the unity of mankind is the foundational
principle of a faith born in backwards, brutal, 19th Century Persia.

Proclaiming the emancipation of women as unstoppable, in a nation
where women were veiled, and still are,  HALF A CENTURY BEFORE
the SUFFRAGETTES was astonishing.

Declaring the Oneness of humanity and outlining a New World
Order from a Prison in Akka, under the control of the corrupt Ottoman
Empire which such prophetic authority a century before Apollo missions
gave us the Full Disc Images of Earth that made everyone understand,
INTUITIVELY what had been ordained..  was even more astonishing.

Detailing the need for an inclusive gathering of the leadership
of nations to establish global governance and prevent war was
I Tell You Three Times.. this is no co-incidence!  B^D

Prophecy from an Atheist, and what is it that will 'eventually happen?

Bahai's will be killed or converted because they are 'too nice'!?

Instead we see the principles of the Bahai faith being implemented
by the modern world even if they are unaware of the author!   B^D

Persecution has not impeded the faith.. it has PROPELLED IT!   B^D

Well, The Soviets expropriated their Temple and persecuted them,
but the Soviets are dust and the Bahai are prospering, having grown
much faster than earlier faiths and already having significant social,
cultural and philosophical impact.

I see no evidence of YOUR prophecy being fulfilled,
though it follows the conventional 'wisdom' than might
wins out..   but plenty that theirs, SO SEEMINGLY UNLIKELY
AT THE TIME IS OCCURRING!  They have already built a prototype
democratic, nascent global administration of diverse nationalities,
ethnicities and faiths.

Persia, in the early times, was the place they might have been crushed,
But like the Jews before the Might of Egypt, and the Christians before
the Might of Rome..  they face a Paper Tiger, rotting from within.

It's economy is crumbling before your eyes, and the Bahai concept that
Global problems require UNITED GLOBAL ACTION is now on every financiers
lips!   The Market is crying out that Faith and Hope are what is
missing..   the acolytes of Moloch, the Golden Calf are wailing about
the loss of Faith and Hope!      B^D

The nine world religions faced superior military and political
might but endured!  B^D

So, in fact the Mighty Roman Empire did not 'Kill or convert'
all the Christians,  it was the OTHER WAY AROUND!!!

The Christians, with nothing but a BETTER IDEA, converted
the Roman's who had crucified Christ.. and they became his
most passionate followers.. and formed the Holy Roman Empire!    B^D

history just doesn't support your nonsense, does it!!?!!!!

Typical atheist misdirection..  it won the battle of ideas!

 > when it became the official religion of

completely the reverse of your claim above that "The
Meek will not inherit the Earth!"

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA

Backflip with a half-twist in just a few lines!   BRAVO!  B^D

according to you it should have..  your judgement just isn't
very good..  EVEN IN RETROSPECT!!

The outcome was the OPPOSITE of you claims the harmless believers
would be wiped out or converted....  THEY DID THE CONVERTING!!!!

What incredible POWER their ideas had!  It's a MIRACLE!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Clearly the Chaos you predict is not destiny!   B^)

Just two day names now, nothing like 3 billion monotheists
and their great and enduring civilisations!

Not as terrible as the Atheist Soviet terror and genocide.

They have already outlasted the Soviet Atheist regime!   B^)

Bad ideas don't endure.

Good organising principles do.

Your view of History is inevitability and lottery, completely
contradictory nonsense!

Their idea is actively building a brilliant design.

No wonder religions triumph!

You have accurately described mankind's judgement on
40,000,000 dead from Soviet and Maoist Atheism, with
nothing of value in return,  but clearly can't see that
religion offers principles for effective social
organisation, easily outweighing some warts, and all.

It's not faith that makes people take up faith, it's
SEEING IT WORKS, that gives them faith.

For being 'rude' about murderous totalitarian Atheist regimes
and those who defend them!???

You criticise me, but not them?

Show me your posts attacking and condemning THEM for 40,000,000
dead ..before you dare castigate me for 'being impolite'!!!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAAAA

How can I be a 'disgrace to women' simply by defending them
from misogynists, perverts and rapists, IF I AM NOT A WOMAN!!!?    B^)

fasgnadh is a Pagan celtic word  - 'the winnower'.

I sort the wheat from the chaff!   B^)

I have said FROM THE OUTSET

# I made clear when I arrived, that I have no claims
# to make, and thus no turf to defend..
#
#   "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
#    who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
#    he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."

Defending the voiceless and the persecuted believers
does not mean I am one of them!!!

I HAVE been the Advocatus Diaboli for religion against the Atheists,
using their standard as mine for this action!

Why is that 'a disgrace'?  I frankly admit there are many religious
more admirable than myself, and I thank you for helping point out
that their standards are way above those of the Atheists!!!!   B^D

Are you a Bahai coming here to tell me I cannot speak out,
on behalf of NO ONE BUT MYSELF, to condemn TYRANNY and Hypocrisy?

I defend Christians persecuted by Soviet Atheists, but I'm not a
Christian, I don't turn the other cheek.

    "nemo me impune lacessit!"  - Voltaire and me!     B^D

I defend Muslims, living peacefully in Australia, but stereotyped
by bigots as all being Collectively Responsible for the acts of
a tiny minority of islamofascists.. but I'm not a Muslim

I defend Jews from the slanders of Nazis, but I'm not a Jew.

All of these things can be confirmed readily from the google archives.

As can my love of politics, involvement in which is forbidden
by the Bahai!

Why should I have to make the sign of the cross, give up beer,
not eat pork and stop having political opinions

BEFORE YOU THINK I AM ALLOWED TO DEFEND THEM AGAINST ATHEIST LIES!!!!

B^D

You HYPOCRITES are amazing!!!  You think because I choose not
to wear a Yamulka I cannot defend Jews from Nazi shitpigs???

You think because I have lacerated the Pope for increasing
the rate of HIV infection in Africa by the absurd ban on condoms
I cannot defend Jesus from rude and ignorant Atheist adolescents?

You think because I was posting condemnations of the Taliban
YEARS BEFORE the WTC and the invasion of Afghanistan, that I cannot
appreciate the glory of the Islamic civilization.

You think because I personally choose to have my say on any and
every political issue from the desolate failure of the Bush
Administration and it's invasion of TexIraq to the Chinese
persecution of the Tibetans that I cannot defend the Bahai
from the depredations of the Soviet Atheists and their MODERN
TOVARISH!!!!!

And you seriously suggest if I mount a spirited defence of
ALL THESE, religious and political and cultural victims
of prejudice and irrational actions, and wipe the floor
with these Atheist Bastets  .. in a 20:1 battle of wits
where all 20 of them are unarmed..  that means I must
**BE** each of those that I defend!!

And so.. I have been called a Muslim, a Christian, A Communist,
a Nazi, a Bahai, A Jew, ...  and that has occurred, in this
NG,  without EVER a single profession of personal faith by me!!!

B^D

What I have REPEATEDLY TOLD YOU ALL, which all of you have
chosen to ignore, is that I offer no 'proof of God' the standard
atheist battleground, because no logical resolution is possible!
.. I have repeated that I could indeed just be a REAL atheist,
ANNOYED by all of the FUNDAMENTALIST WANKERS in A.A. who give
atheism a bad name:  8^o

# "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
# who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
# he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."
#
#  From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
#  Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:13:20 +1100
#  Subject: Re: What IS the 'probability' of God existing?
#           How is it calculated?
#           Re: London: 'Buses carry atheist message'
#  Message-ID: <49074836$0$18424$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>

# I made clear when I arrived, that I have no claims
# to make, and thus no turf to defend..
#
#   "I'll stick with the philosophy of my brother, St Rod,
#    who says he doesn't want to hear about people's theology,
#    he only cares about the way they ACT toward each other."
#
# Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:28:28 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion,aus.culture.true-blue,
# aus.religion
# Subject: But if there is no Wall.....
# Re: More splits in Atheism as the rift over Atheist Dogma widens!
# Message-ID: <490fa53d$0$4454$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>

I said it again and again

Message-ID: <490d323f$0$18425$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <490e559d$0$4448$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <490e977d$0$18430$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49294d87$0$31806$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49105c22$0$28216$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>

    ...and STILL you ignorant fools
insist on projecting onto my BLANK RATIONAL CANVAS,
whatever stereotype, strawman, icon or effigy of RELIGION
which YOU have constructed in your heads! Lies, falsehoods,
fantasies and delusions. ' MAYA' in Buddhism 'The World of illusion'

Oh God..  now I'm a Buddhist again.. except I said 'God'!   B^D

For Bahai's!   B^)

Why do atheist HYPOCRITE's who REFUSE to even
accept that there IS A STANDARD,
insist it applies to me and not to them!

The same standard is SET IN EVERY RELIGION;

#  "And argue not with the People of the Scripture
#  unless it be in ( a way) that is better,
#  save with such of them as do wrong;
#  and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us
#  and revealed unto you;
#  our God and your God is One,
#  and unto Him we surrender."
#
#          - The Qu'ran  Sura 29 verse 46

I argue the ATHEIST way, because that is what you understand! B^)

And the Atheists are now telling me that the Bahai way
is a BETTER WAY!!    And I, but not them, must follow it!!!!!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAAA

I agree with you.. these people have the highest standards,
so high that Atheists joke that they cannot survive and will
be 'wiped out' ..

And yet.. the MIGHT OF THE SOVIET ATHEIST REGIME IS DUST,
and these gentle souls prosper:

It's a miracle!   B^D

You know.. they may just be right!

Thanks for posting that!

I will go away now and consider becoming more like those Bahai,
it's not easy, the Atheist Bastets mock kindness and compassion
as weakness, and I find myself unable to stand by in the face of
such wickedness.

Do you think it wrong of me to protect Lambs from wolves?

Should I be more considerate of the feelings of the vicious predators
who throughout history have tortured, terrorized, persecuted and killed
the religious, and 40,000,000 others..  is it an insult to call an
totalitarian Atheist regime an Totalitarian Atheist regime, and the
Atheist Bastets who defend it, Atheist Bastets, even though they
proclaim that's what they are?

And that is ALL the atheist regimes...  100% of Atheist governments
are brutal totalitarian regimes.

Whereas most religious societies are not.

Now I have to thank you from the depth of my heart for being
the first Atheist to ADMIT that truth, and the obvious conclusion
that, in the main, religion produces great and enduring civilisations
and Atheism produces savage totalitarian shitholes.

Have we 'insulted anyone' by speaking the simple truth???

  I can't see how.

I agree entirely with you, and have many times criticised sectarian
conflict;

Catholics vrs Protestants, Sunni vrs Shia, Palestinians and Israeli's
(although Jews and Arabs have lived in peace so that is more political
than religious) ..  but the undeniable fact is that the overwhelming
suffering of TENS OF MILLIONS in the USSR, Maoist China, Pol Pots
Year Zero..  are the ATHEIST REGIMES!!!!

Far far more deadly than a few thousand witches burned, way back in
the medieval era!!!!!

This is MODERN ATHEISM indicted on massive Crimes against Humanity, far
worse than ...

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Hatter conceded Kelsey is a liar and Atheists have nothing left to say:
 >

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 >
 > does polly want a cracker?

You filthy Atheist liars ARE Crackers!   B^)

Mad as a..
 > Hatter

The facts of History have shown what MALIGN liars Atheists are,
even when they are PROVEN to be fabricating events, their
morally defective Comrades continue the Pravda Line of Lies,
character assassinations, slander and False Witness.

They have no core.. they are empty shells mouthing falsehood

[newsgroups trimmed - help fight spam! ]
On Nov 27, 7:59 am, fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sadly not true.
Monotheism sexism racism.
All thousands of years old and still going strong.

By the way...
Are you going to apologise publicly for the lies you told about me?
Or is honour not something you feel the need to demonstrate?
I am prepared to forgive you and put it behind us if you show
repentance.

Mark.

[snips]

Here's a hint, numbnuts: *I* posted the data about the temple.

Here's a hint, numbnuts: the temple was taken over *twice* and you
failed, completely, to define which time you referred to.  I at least
pointed out there were *two* incidents.

Because I don't resort to sad little word games the way you do?  Sorry,
you'll have to do better than that.

Bahai is not the source of the world's current movement towards
globalism and equalization.  That stems from the development and
construction of nuclear weapons.

Swill

In article  fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com> writes:

"The Beast with Two Backs"?  Is this some sort of knock-off
homebrew eschatological imagery?

"The beast with two backs" is of course, an old euphemism
for two people fucking.  Missionary style.  

It was my assumption that you were trying to associate
atheism with the fiery blood-drenched monsters who
bestride the world of the end times.  But if I'm
mistaken, and you were intending to make a connection
between atheism and sex, well, I can live with that.

Most atheists I know quite like sex.

-- cary

On Nov 27, 5:48 am, Kelsey Bjarnason <kels...@lgisp.net> wrote:

You have never been able to provide any evidence if this assertion.

Where is it?

The Bahai are clear.  their temple served the Bahai community for
worship from
it's completion in 1908, "until 1938, when  the site was appropriated
by the
Soviet Government."

That is, expropriated by the Atheist Communists;

"The Soviet Union was an atheist state"

"the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
    - Daniel Peris,
    "Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
     Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853

"Criticism of atheism was strictly forbidden"

"Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested.
In 1918, the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky executed over
3000 Orthodox clergymen of all ranks.
Some were drowned in ice-holes or poured over with cold water
in winter until they turned to ice-pillars.
In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian
concentration camp was established in the Solovki Islands in the White
Sea"

John Shelton Curtis, The Russian Church and the Soviet State
     (Boston: Little Brown, 1953)

Jane Ellis, The Russian Orthodox Church: A Contemporary History
(Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1986)

Dimitry V. Pospielovsky, The Russian Church Under the Soviet Regime
1917-1982 (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1984)

idem., A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious
Policies (New York; St. Martin’s Press, 1987)

Glennys Young, Power and the Sacred in Revolutionary Russia: Religious
Activists in the Village (University Park: Pennsylvania State
University
Press, 1997)

Daniel Peris, Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant
Godless (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1998)

William B. Husband, “Godless Communists”: Atheism and Society in
Soviet
Russia (DeKalb: Northern Illinois University Press, 2000

Edward Roslof, Red Priests: Renovationism, Russian Orthodoxy, and
Revolution, 1905-1946 (Bloomington, Indiana, 2002)

“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.”
    -Vladimir I. Lenin

    But it was not just the Atheism of the leadership,
    but of the entire State apparatus;

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
    - V.I. Lenin

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - Stalin
   -  E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
      Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940

The Atheist leadership's policies were implemented under
the red Terror, via gulags and executions, the use of
every arm of the state for anti-religious propaganda
and the forced indoctrination of CHILDREN!   B^[

“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen.
WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
     -Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper

“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)

Now we see how Atheists maintain their Non-Belief.. they SIMPLY
IGNORE THE FACTS!!!!      B^D

When the Atheists only argument is abuse you know they have
lost the argument

I have provided evidence, from those whose temple was expropriated,
by the Atheistic Communists whose barbarity you are defending,
in *1938*.   You have provided no evidence whatsoever for your
assertion
the temple was previously taken over in 1910, which flies in the face
of
the Bahai account that their temple served their community from 1908
till
1938.   B^)

Perhaps  they didn't notice their temple being expropriated!?!!   B^D

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA

Perhaps you are just another Pravda Propagandist spinning lies.  B6]

You can't read dates?   B^D  1938

# " Completed around 1908, the Ashkhabad House of Worship
#   served the Bahá'í community of that region until 1938, when
#   the site was appropriated by the Soviet Government."

No, you CLAIMED ther was another incident, one the Bahai's
don't seem to have experienced.. and you have never provided a SINGLE
citation in evidence...   More of Atheists asking us to BELIEVE,
without
a shred of RATIONAl PROOF!?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA

Perhaps some 'events' Kelsey thinks are real exist only in his head..

mere Beliefs which he can't prove.   {snicker}

All I did was post the facts.

As provided by the people whose temple, THEY SAY, was
appropriated by the Atheistic Soviets in 1938, just as your Atheist
Comrades killed priests and expropriated Churches.

No Proof of Kelsey's claim and no apology...

just as we have come to expect from Atheists..

I am clearly an excellent judge of the character of Atheists such as
Kelsey.

The truth is compelling:

Lenin was not a Christian.  You could not be a Party Member
unless you were an ATHEIST!!!

Lenin and Stalin made it absolutely clear they were Atheists,
leading an explicitly, officially and in practice, ATHEIST regime;

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”
    - V.I. Lenin

    But it was not just the Atheism of the leadership,
    but of the entire State apparatus;

“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen.
WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
(Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper)

“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)

“The World has never before known a godlessness as organized,
militarized and tenaciously malevolent as that preached by Marxism.
Within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart
of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force,
more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions.
Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist
policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve
its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid
of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction
of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of ...

read more »