Why do pagans attack each other?????
Oya & Pomba
This is Rodger Matthews again, posting from Jon Frater's account.
I've been thinking about this whole nonsense with Kevin Filan, (turns
out he's been a liar and a troublemaker for a long time. From Lady Armida
to Leo Martello he's been a coward and a worm for years, wearing out his
welcome everywhere.) Cliff Low is not much better although unlike Kevin,
he hasn't resorted to threatening one year old children yet. Matt
Grossman tells people he's the reincarnation of Christ and Skyler Bode
likes to hit women. What a sterling bunch of characters to be attacking
another human being in any way. Matt, Cliff & Skyler are all very timid
and polite to Madison's face, making them hypocrites on top of all thier
other charms. Kevin Filan's never even met Madison or her baby daughter,
making his activities particularly unfounded and stupid. (He's never
attended any rituals at her house, Vodou or otherwise--neither have the
rest of them-- and has exposed a tremendous amount of ignorance about
Vodou in his postings, yet behaves as though he were some kind of
expert.)
This sort of wasteful, hateful and petty activity seems to be rampant
in the pagan community. Why? It seems to me that Pagans in America have
become a nation of conformists. Anyone who is different. Who strikes out
on thier own, who deviates from the way the "clique" do things, (Wiccan,
Ceremonial or what have you.) is very threatening to the clique.
It seems to me that Kevin Filan is threatened by the fact that Madison
is beautiful, sexy, confident, charismatic and self empowered. He's not.
She is. He's jealous and she somehow makes him feel bad about himself so
he has to do the rotten things that he does.
What makes this really awful is the fact that it's going on all over
the pagan internet and all over pagan communities throughout America.
Substitute the names "Kevin" & "Madison" for any other two names picked at
random. You're describing someone's situation. Some flame war, some
bitchcraft, some witch war out there.
People lacking self worth are the only ones who feel they must tear
down someone else. So why are so many of us apparently feeling that we
lack self worth? People like Kevin, Skyler, Matt and Cliff and all those
other gossiping, lying, vicious, unhappy pagans out there are defining our
culture as a haven for losers. They diminish us all.
The US magickal collective is a no bitchcraft zone. One of the only
rules there, is that pagans care for each other. That we protect our own
and keep our assets in the community.
I wish pagans throughout America would do that. Abandon the gossip and
the egos and the jealousies that ruin what we are.
When a group like the US collective does so much good for such a large
multi-faith group of people it pains me to see lowly people try to smear
it.
The US collective and all groups like it are American pagan's only best
hope of becoming all that we have the ability to be.
I think that's the last I'll be saying on this. I hope so. Anyone
who'd like to discuss any of this with me can send a phone number, reply
to Jon's account or try to arrange a personal meeting with me through
Jon's account. I'd rather meet people with accusations in person,
anyway. Let them tell it to my face.
Safe Journey.
----Rodger Matthews Dragonstorm
Karen McFarlin
> It seems to me that Kevin Filan is threatened by the fact that Madison
> is beautiful, sexy, confident, charismatic and self empowered. He's not.
> She is. He's jealous and she somehow makes him feel bad about himself so
> he has to do the rotten things that he does.
>
Who is this Kevin Filan fellow anyway? Is he in this newsgroup?
Cairns
RAM...@worldnet.att.net
Oya & Pomba wrote:
> (Snip)
> other gossiping, lying, vicious, unhappy pagans out there are defining our culture as a haven for losers. They diminish us all.The US magickal collective is a no bitchcraft zone. One of the only rules there, is that pagans care for each other. That we protect our own and keep our assets in the community. I wish pagans throughout America would do that. Abandon the gossip and the egos and the jealousies that ruin what we are. ----Rodger Matthews Dragonstorm
Dear Rodger,
As a newcomer to this and other American pagan newsgroups, I have been
very saddened by reading the nastiness that seems to be such a daily
part of life for many of these people. I recently moved here from the
UK, and found that life as a pagan included the unfortunate task of
fighting the defamation of other religious groups and bigots. The
anti-defamation work of all pagans is hard enough without having to also
face the nastiness and ignorance from within the pagan community as
well. I really believe it is a reflection of our times, the culture we
live in now is in general so aggressive, violent, and self centered that
many have grown up not knowing any other way to be. The truth, and the
answer to your question, is that true pagans do not attack each other or
anyone else. They may defend themselves and others as need be, by
magical or other means as appropriate to the person and the situation,
but they never attack. If anyone claims to be a pagan of any path, and
yet has a heart full of hate and anger, and does not hesitate to take
this out on others, we can only steer clear of them and pray for them.
They are clearly lacking in their lives and in their understanding of
paganism. May the Goddess/God bless them with love and understanding and
ease the pain that they rub off on everyone else.
Blessed Be
Branwen
Oya & Pomba
> Who is this Kevin Filan fellow anyway? Is he in this newsgroup?
He's in and out.
>
> Cairns
Kevin Filan seems to be a deeply disturbed individual who goes from job
to job, living situation to living situation, and pagan group to pagan
group--wearing out his welcome everywhere.
He engages in random smear campaigns against all kinds of people some
of which he's never met. He has a criminal record for stalking and bad
checks. He most recently threatened my 16 month old daughter. (He's
never met my baby or myself. I have no idea why he threatened my daughter
and I don't care.) He associates with people who are similar in character
or ignorant of his. One of his friends even accused me of "making up the
threat" even though I posted an exact duplicate of it on the net along
with all the route information. An obvious and irresponsible attempt to
pretend that the threat was never made.
The bottom line is that Kevin Filan and his associates are among the
disturbed and often cruel and irresponsible portion of the population who
are (sadly) attracted to paganism.
XXX-The Gris Gris Lady.
John Finnegan
On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:10:17 +0000, RAM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
[snipping]
>As a newcomer to this and other American pagan newsgroups, I have been
>very saddened by reading the nastiness that seems to be such a daily
>part of life for many of these people.
Actually, it is not a daily part of life for most of us; most of us
would be a sight more polite if we were facing one another.
--the Convivial Codfish
Oya & Pomba
> Dear Rodger,
> As a newcomer to this and other American pagan newsgroups, I have been
> very saddened by reading the nastiness that seems to be such a daily
> part of life for many of these people. I recently moved here from the
> UK, and found that life as a pagan included the unfortunate task of
> fighting the defamation of other religious groups and bigots. The
> anti-defamation work of all pagans is hard enough without having to also
> face the nastiness and ignorance from within the pagan community as
> well. I really believe it is a reflection of our times, the culture we
> live in now is in general so aggressive, violent, and self centered that
> many have grown up not knowing any other way to be. The truth, and the
> answer to your question, is that true pagans do not attack each other or
> anyone else. They may defend themselves and others as need be, by
> magical or other means as appropriate to the person and the situation,
> but they never attack. If anyone claims to be a pagan of any path, and
> yet has a heart full of hate and anger, and does not hesitate to take
> this out on others, we can only steer clear of them and pray for them.
> They are clearly lacking in their lives and in their understanding of
> paganism. May the Goddess/God bless them with love and understanding and
> ease the pain that they rub off on everyone else.
> Blessed Be
> Branwen
Thank you Branwen for your sensible and compassionate post. I will
pass it on to Rodger.
XXX-The Gris Gris Lady.
Pomba Gira Botanica.
peter li'ir key
Oya & Pomba <oyap...@chelsea.ios.com> wrote:
>[a very long attack on other people]
> ----Rodger Matthews Dragonstorm
who cares?
now all we have are the disputable words of two or more people,
all of which seem inclined toward spite and defamation.
i personally dislike oya & pomba's pompous and bombastic attitudes.
i also dislike kevin et al's unsubstantiated attacks on oya & pomba.
one smacks of hypocrisy. the other smacks of spite.
peter li'ir key
k...@netcom.com
ps no i don't care how big your wand is or how deep your cauldron isA
Lyflite
Unfortunately the anonymity of the web causes people to say and do things they
(~probably~, I hope anyway) would never say face to face with the person they
attack. A couple of ways to *try* to put an end to the nastiness is:
1) Ignore it publicly.
2) E-mail privately.
3) Keep an open mind.
Blessings,
Lyflite
Mariposa
I definately agree with the above and add this to the whole..
Because of a few poeple who obviously lack tact (or may do it on
purpose just to aggravate and instigate problems) does not mean that
there is a 'plague' in the pagan community. It just means that even
pagans are human and sometimes humans are morons.
Mariposa
RAVENDNCR
<<Unfortunately the anonymity of the web causes people to say and do
things they (~probably~, I hope anyway) would never say face to face with
the person they attack. A couple of ways to *try* to put an end to the
nastiness is:
1) Ignore it publicly.
2) E-mail privately.
3) Keep an open mind.
Blessings,
Lyflite>>
Excellent advice. Gossip knows no bounds.
*B*B
Bode of Bode Hall
In article <oyapomba-080...@ppp-16.ts-4.nyc.idt.net>,
> I've been thinking about this whole nonsense with Kevin Filan, (turns
>out he's been a liar and a troublemaker for a long time. From Lady Armida
>to Leo Martello he's been a coward and a worm for years, wearing out his
>welcome everywhere.)
The Armida debacle is well known in these parts; I'd suggest you tread
softly.
>Matt Grossman tells people he's the reincarnation of Christ
I've addressed this point in my last post. Moving on...
>and Skyler Bode likes to hit women.
From defamation with _some_ basis in fact to defamation with _no_ basis
in fact, eh? Just for the record, I do not, nor have I ever, "liked to
hit women." I can only assume you are extrapolating this tasty nugget of
unfounded assumption from the argument I had with the love of my life, 2
years ago, that ended in a slap in her face on my part. An incident which
I've been feeling guilty for _for_ those past 2 years.
You wisely didn't mention that she and I have talked, _numerous_ times,
about that incident, and that she's forgiven me, or that that incident
says almost _nothing_ about my character in general.
Once, long ago, there was friendship between us. Even love, as twisted
as the environment was, as full of space aliens coming to rule over
humanity and Lovecraftian "psychic bugs" taking over all of our spirits.
How kind of you to drag my deepest shame into the light of USENET for
your own twisted kicks. I hope you're proud of Sticking Together for the
Pagan Community like that.
>What a sterling bunch of characters to be attacking
>another human being in any way. Matt, Cliff & Skyler are all very timid
>and polite to Madison's face, making them hypocrites on top of all thier
>other charms.
Lessee, last 2 times I saw Madison and Jon was: Lunacon a year-and-half
ago. I said a polite 'hi' and made small talk; I knew she was running a
sort of new-age-circle thing, but had no reason at the time to say
anything bad to, or about, her.
Oh, and the New York Queer Pride parade this year. I believe the sum
total of our interaction was:
Mad: (offhand comment on the skirt I was wearing)
Me: (distracted laugh and smile)
Do I hate Madison? No. Do I distrust her? Yes. That's _never_ been a
secret, even to her face. Your high horse has dissolved.
>on thier own, who deviates from the way the "clique" do things, (Wiccan,
>Ceremonial or what have you.) is very threatening to the clique.
Oh? Kind of like Matt G., myself, and so many others threatened yours,
and Madison's, clique 3 years ago?
> It seems to me that Kevin Filan is threatened by the fact that Madison
>is beautiful, sexy, confident, charismatic and self empowered. He's not.
She's definitely confident and charismatic, I'll give you _that_.
> People lacking self worth are the only ones who feel they must tear
>down someone else.
Very much the way you've been tearing down myself and my friends. Go
back; read how much gossip has come out of your, Mad's, and Jon's
fingers, and how much has descended from mine. Not to mention Matt,
whose entire role in this is that of someone who wouldn't give Kevin's
phone number and address to Mad.
>lack self worth? People like Kevin, Skyler, Matt and Cliff and all those
>other gossiping, lying, vicious, unhappy pagans out there are defining our
>culture as a haven for losers. They diminish us all.
Must I reiterate?
> The US magickal collective is a no bitchcraft zone. One of the only
>rules there, is that pagans care for each other. That we protect our own
>and keep our assets in the community.
If that's really true, I wish the best for all of you. The sheer amount
of hatred left over from you toward Matt and me, not to mention Cliff and
Kevin (whose characters I can't vouch for, as I don't know them that
well), leads me to believe otherwise.
> The US collective and all groups like it are American pagan's only best
>hope of becoming all that we have the ability to be.
Don't believe it. Learning to act out of love is the _only_ best hope.
Collectives, cults, groups and religions are only the settings for such
learning.
Or its opposite.
I know I'm being vicious here; my friend is being maligned and someone I
distrust is being praised and held up as a righteous victim, and the
point of the entire discussion is being lost.
Think for yourselves, folks. If you really want to think of me as Rodger
Matthews and Madison paint me, well, I reserve the right to judge you too
if I ever meet you.
-skyler
--
Bode of Bode Hall sky...@panix.com
72% of Americans surveyed said they'd prefer a curtailment of their civil
rights to the existence of "terrorism" in the US. Does anyone
besides me spot the contradiction?
steven y. payne
In article <oyapomba-080...@ppp-16.ts-4.nyc.idt.net>, oyap...@chelsea.ios.com (Oya & Pomba) says:
>
> This is Rodger Matthews again, posting from Jon Frater's account.
> I've been thinking about this whole nonsense with Kevin Filan, (turns
>out he's been a liar and a troublemaker for a long time. From Lady Armida
>to Leo Martello he's been a coward and a worm for years, wearing out his
>Grossman tells people he's the reincarnation of Christ and Skyler Bode
>likes to hit women. What a sterling bunch of characters to be attacking
>another human being in any way. Matt, Cliff & Skyler are all very timid
>and polite to Madison's face, making them hypocrites on top of all thier
>making his activities particularly unfounded and stupid. (He's never
>attended any rituals at her house, Vodou or otherwise--neither have the
>rest of them-- and has exposed a tremendous amount of ignorance about
>Vodou in his postings, yet behaves as though he were some kind of
>expert.)
> This sort of wasteful, hateful and petty activity seems to be rampant
>in the pagan community. Why? It seems to me that Pagans in America have
>become a nation of conformists. Anyone who is different. Who strikes out
>Ceremonial or what have you.) is very threatening to the clique.
>is beautiful, sexy, confident, charismatic and self empowered. He's not.
>he has to do the rotten things that he does.
>the pagan internet and all over pagan communities throughout America.
>Substitute the names "Kevin" & "Madison" for any other two names picked at
>random. You're describing someone's situation. Some flame war, some
>bitchcraft, some witch war out there.
>other gossiping, lying, vicious, unhappy pagans out there are defining our
>culture as a haven for losers. They diminish us all.
>rules there, is that pagans care for each other. That we protect our own
>and keep our assets in the community.
>the egos and the jealousies that ruin what we are.
>multi-faith group of people it pains me to see lowly people try to smear
>it.
>hope of becoming all that we have the ability to be.
>who'd like to discuss any of this with me can send a phone number, reply
>to Jon's account or try to arrange a personal meeting with me through
>Jon's account. I'd rather meet people with accusations in person,
>anyway. Let them tell it to my face.
> Safe Journey.
>
> ----Rodger Matthews Dragonstorm
>
> are still lacking in maturity. If they were really as accomplished as they
> profess, they would come across as "light hearts" and not seem to be
> proverbial malcontents. We should be creating a "standing wave" of Love
> and tolerance in our community. We have a great deal to overcome with
> so many others, that it doesn't make sense to rant and rave about our
> own. As a suggestion to others, take a moment to find common ground and
> re-enforce our beliefs.
Martin Knutsen
RAM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
<Good stuff snipped>
Seems to me that this is a tendency in most New Age large-scale communities.
Part of it comes from the ole 90% rule, 90 % of the people in any large
group will be there because of the remaining 10%, 90 percent of those 10%
will be there because of the Power kick those first 90%s devotion gives em.
Especially when usin a hierarchy model, with High Priest/Priestess and full
paraphernalia, it very easily reverts to basic Dog-Pack dynamics, with the
TopDog/Bitch defending their position from possible contenders, and the
Lieutenants fighting amongst themselves for Second-in-Command positions.
So Sad, perhaps you Americans should write a manual, something like "How
to accomplish Work instead of Chatter"??
Reminds me of my rule-of-thumb when Eye was cruising for girls when Eye was
younger: Always look for the one sitting in the background, keeping quiet,
never go for the prettiest one doing the talking.
Another problem with America seems to be this stupid Feminist idea of
agressiveness. True, 90% ov men are stupid, but so is the case with females.
The Godess loves the God, after all, Titania fights Oberon not because
she detestes him but because she loves him, and while lesbian and gay
people are (Of Course) just as capable of understanding, the central
mystery of Life is exactly that of union of opposites, masculine force
meetin feminine force, on equal terms. A Powergame is needed, as is
competition, the fine Art of Seduction/Courtship is one to be relished,
not abandoned. True, a Male thinks partly of Pussy all the time (At least
most do), but dont tell me that the first thought that flashes through a
womans mind when she sees her preferred sexual gender comin isnt one
ov sexual appraisal? And all this bullshit (If youll excuse my language)
of "Touching your inner Self", what is this, if it isnt coupled with
the thrill of Action and the Act of Laughin into the Storm?
Just a few impressions.
M.K.
Martin Knutsen
Bode of Bode Hall (sky...@panix.com) wrote:
:
: >and Skyler Bode likes to hit women.
: From defamation with _some_ basis in fact to defamation with _no_ basis
: in fact, eh? Just for the record, I do not, nor have I ever, "liked to
: hit women." I can only assume you are extrapolating this tasty nugget of
: unfounded assumption from the argument I had with the love of my life, 2
: years ago, that ended in a slap in her face on my part. An incident which
: I've been feeling guilty for _for_ those past 2 years.
Last night, my girlfriend threw a plate at me, Eye tumbled her to the floor,
she tried to kick me in the balls, Eye knuckled her in the thigh, she tried
to stab me with a knife, Eye almost broke her wrist, then we looked at
each other and just started laughin, then made love.
So What?
M.K.
R. Michael Litchfield
could you all keep whatever local squabble you are pissing on each other
with to your local groups?
I don't care, and don't want to know what you pin fucked popinjays
do to each other, it doesn;t have jack shit to do with the rest of the
world.
-Michael
la...@delphi.com
Michael Litchfield has send e-mail to me cursing me out for defending the US
collective On line. I suggest that he be ignored by both side.
The Mistress of Evil and Bowling.
Susan Profit
In article <h1GRjQ...@delphi.com>, <la...@delphi.com> wrote:
>Michael Litchfield has send e-mail to me cursing me (Snipped)
>The Mistress of Evil and Bowling.
Think of him as the snarling thing at the entrance to the gate. To get
what's behind the gate, you have to deal with the snarling thing.
The Curmudgeon is a historic position in certain magical communities.
His/Her job was to generaly make miserable new students to the group.
If the new students folded their tents and left, it was thought they
didn't have what it took to stick out the training process. If they
either ignored or fought the curmudgeon, win or lose, they were thought to
have what it took and training continued.
Obviously not every magical community made use of such methods of gauging
the sincerity of seekers, but it is neither new to the net, nor unique to
RML.
@}->- ;) Tinne :D Laughter Heals :) -<-{@
INTERNAL(Pênêmûe)
In article <514vrj$3...@matrix.eden.com>, li...@news.eden.com (R. Michael
Litchfield) wrote:
½‹could you all keep whatever local squabble you are pissing on each other
somebody's got a gun to your head and is forcing you to read?
--
I got a mom but I ain't got a dad € My dad's got a wife but she ain't my mom €
Mom's looking for a man to be my dad € But I want my mom and dad to be my real
mom and dad € Is that so bad € Oh, I think I've been had. ‹A.C./lasTemptation
________________________________________________________________________________
Steve Paine
In article <DxIu7...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, "steven y. payne"
<syp2d.?@virginia.edu> writes
>I
>>
>> Good call ! Your very astute in your views. It appears the others
>> are still lacking in maturity. If they were really as accomplished as they
>> profess, they would come across as "light hearts" and not seem to be
>> proverbial malcontents. We should be creating a "standing wave" of Love
>> and tolerance in our community. We have a great deal to overcome with
>> so many others, that it doesn't make sense to rant and rave about our
>> own. As a suggestion to others, take a moment to find common ground and
>> re-enforce our beliefs.
I wholeheartedly agree that the flame wars are a bad thing, but not just
for American Paganism, but for Paganism Worldwide! There has never been
such a wonderful opportunity as the internet for people to find out
about alternative religions and the kind of Bitching that goes on can't
possibly encourage people to find out more, or become involved.
I have been consistently dissappointed by the people who feel they have
to force their opinions on others or to just slander them. Paganism is
all about tolerence of other peoples path and beliefs.
Blessed Be
Steve Paine )0(
--
Steve Paine
Mothermay
...and let us not forget that our own dear *snarling thing* also has quite
an incisive mind. There is a great deal to be learned from even his most
invective-filled posts.
He is the undisputed master of scatological/intellectual juxtiposition;
not an easy literary feat, by any measure.
--
"Improvement makes strait roads; but the crooked roads without Improvement are the roads of genius." --Blake
Mothermay