Earth Air Fire Water
Sidney Lambe
It looks/sounds so romantic. The
Wizard/Witch/Druid/Shaman/Priest/Mage/etc. (hereafter referred to
as "magicians") supposedly work with these supposed essential
elements of Nature in order to accomplish wonderful magickal
things.
druid earth air fire water 260,000 hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=druid+earth+air+fire+water&btnG=Google+Search
pagan OR wicca earth air fire water 71,600 hits
These are supposedly "Old Religions", predating Christianity,
but the very concept of EAfW as the basic elements of Nature was
the creation of the Alchemists of the Middle Ages, after the
Christian paradigm had dominated the Western World for more than
a thousand years. Here's one of numerous similar hits:
http://historymedren.about.com/od/alchemy/p/alchemy.htm
The Alchemists were, as the article says, not magicians at all
but early Physical Scientists. EAFW was the original Periodic
Table. There were strong elements of mysticism from ancient
sources in their understanding at the time, but it was highly
distorted by then, and further corrupted by the concepts of the
Physical Science paradigm.
Alchemy gave rise not only to Physical Science, but to Ceremonial
Magick. How the EAFW concepts every found their way into
Druidism/Wicca/Paganism/Shamanism (or rather, practices that are
_called_ by those names by their participants) I cannot say.
But none of the EAFW magick works at all, except in the creation
of theatrical rituals that provide very nice entertainment for
the participants and viewers and scholars.
And there's a very good reason for that.
What was lost over the centuries is the true meanings of the
words/phrases that are now interpreted as EAFW.
They are: Idea, Emotion, Imagination, and Intent (Will).
Those are the basic creative tools that real magicians work
with.
Leave the EAFW stuff to Walt Disney. That's the only place it
works.
Note that the Alchemists never succeeded in turning lead into
gold.
Sid
--
AKA "Evergreen" an Ordained Wiccan Priest
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
Tom
>
> These are supposedly "Old Religions", predating Christianity,
> but the very concept of EAfW as the basic elements of Nature was
> the creation of the Alchemists of the Middle Ages, after the
> Christian paradigm had dominated the Western World for more than
> a thousand years.
From Aristotle's "Physics", Book 2, Chapter 3 (Written in 350 BCE):
"The elementary qualities are four, and any four terms can be combined
in six couples. Contraries, however, refuse to be coupled: for it is
impossible for the same thing to be hot and cold, or moist and dry.
Hence it is evident that the 'couplings' of the elementary qualities
will be four: hot with dry and moist with hot, and again cold with dry
and cold with moist. And these four couples have attached themselves
to the apparently 'simple' bodies (Fire, Air, Water, and Earth) in a
manner consonant with theory. For Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is
hot and moist (Air being a sort of aqueous vapour); and Water is cold
and moist, while Earth is cold and dry."
Now, it might be that Aristotle, in a fit or genius, invented the
whole concept himself. However, most of what Aristotle wrote was what
he had heard from others, so it's more than likely, almost a
certainty, that the concept of the four elements, Earth, Air, Water,
and Fire is older lore even than classical Greece, which existed at
least fifteen hundred years before the alchemists of the Middle Ages.
"Sidney" is again a victim of his own poor scholarship.
ren
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22jonathon+barbera%22+troll&btnG=Search
"the very concept of EAfW as the basic elements of Nature was
the creation of the Alchemists of the Middle Ages"
On Jan 25, 7:36 am, Tom <danto...@comcast.net> wrote:
> From Aristotle's "Physics", Book 2, Chapter 3 (Written in 350 BCE):
What Tom said. I will add that Greek Anaximander c. 611-547 BCE and
Persian Zarathustra c. 630-553 BCE also taught the 4 elements.
1X2Willows
Screw the ancient Greeks, Persians and everyone else on top of that,
who was going on "Four Elements".
Fire couldn't exist without Earth, Water and Air; thus secondary.
Off-topic for Druidry, please mind.
ren
> Off-topic for Druidry, please mind.
This is on-topic for Druidry.
http://www.aoda.org/articles/elements.htm
Druid Revival lore contains a system of its own, a set of three
elements that first appears in Iolo Morganwg's writings. Whether it's
an invention of Iolo's or a surviving scrap of some older teaching is
anyone's guess, but the three elements have been part of Druid Revival
teaching ever since his time. Their names are nwyfre, gwyar, and
calas.
Nwyfre (pronounced "NOOiv-ruh") is an old Welsh term meaning "sky" or
"heaven." As an element, nwyfre is the source of life and
consciousness, and modern Druids often refer to it simply as the life
force. Its image in nature is blue sky.
Gwyar (pronounced "GOO-yar") literally means "blood" in old Welsh, but
its more general meaning is "flow" or "fluidity." As an element, gwyar
is the source of change, motion, growth, and decay. Its image in
nature is running water.
Calas (pronounced "CAH-lass") comes from the same root as caled, Welsh
for "hard," and means "solidity." As an element, calas is the source
of form, differentiation, manifestation, and stability. Its image in
nature is stone.
---
In American culture there are also 3 elements. Earth Wind and Fire,
but I jokingly digress. http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Rquy6ff65WU
1X2Willows
On Jan 25, 8:57 am, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>
> Off-topic for Druidry, please mind.
> This is on-topic for Druidry.
>
> http://www.aoda.org/articles/elements.htm
> [....]
AODA... you've got to be kidding.
Bunch of kabbalists assuming the title, just like Sid.
Kent
>
> Screw the ancient Greeks, Persians and everyone else on top of that,
> who was going on "Four Elements".
>
> Fire couldn't exist without Earth, Water and Air; thus secondary.
Personally, I prefer to think as Earth, Water, and Air in the "Land,
Sea, and Sky" concept rather than "elements". Along the line of
"elements", when I work with them, I prefer adding Nwyfre (rough Welsh
translation; "spirit"), and sometimes even use Gwron, Plenydd, and
Alawn (the three rays of Awen) in the mix...all wholly dependent on
what I'm doing at the time.
>
> Off-topic for Druidry, please mind.
Yeah, kinda-sorta-somewhat...what's worse is the "know-it-all" who
started the thread and states that element magic doesn't work...
"Sidney the Omnipotent"
Offramp
1X2Willows
>I saw them singing Boogie Wonderland on Top of the Pops last night.
That was Earth Wind and Funkmaster Flash.
undsalsufy
> Note that the Alchemists never succeeded in turning lead into
> gold.
>
Why are you posting here, exactly?
undsalsufy
Well said, Tom.
paul...@verizon.net
are part of classical Hindu cosmology as well. And the Chinese have a
closely related system.
Whether there was a single source or philosophers all over Eurasia
developed similar systems positing primal qualities acting through
classical elements within a millenia or so of one another, all these
systems predate the common era. Neoplatonic teaching, which built on
the Aristotelian system, certainly informed mediaeval/renaissance
alchemists, as did the qabalistic material which exploded out of Spain
at the time of the expulsion, and Islamic theories which came over
from the Middle East as part of the cross-pollenization of the
Crusades.
But Valentine and the rest were heirs and developers of the concept,
not its originators.
paul...@verizon.net
qualities to the Aristotelian elements is something I haven't seen in
classical material, but popped up, if I recall correctly, in
Theosophical material, and then got splashed all around the modern
occult community (ie. late-19th century onward) from there. This
doesn't make it less valuable - Crowley's various essays in Book 4, pt
2, on the equation of different mental and spiritual functions (if you
make a distinction) to the Weapons, for example, are spot on. But are
a modern derivation, which seems to argue against your own notions
that the four elements are a late accretion, and their "initiated"
interpretation the original material, obscured by time and
superstition.
Sidney Lambe
Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.druid,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
From: Sidney Lambe <nos...@nospam.invalid>
Subject: Re: Earth Air Fire Water
References: <orps46x...@amma.net>
Followup-To:
> Another strike, Sid, is that the four elements (in different order)
They developed what they _thought_ they understood.
What you are seeing in the research you are citing above is the
classical mistake of the culture-bound scholar: They impose their
own understanding of reality on what little they can see of the
past.
For example, when they encounter an ancient report of things
(like strange beasts) that aren't recognized as being real by
this culture, they call such accounts 'myths', even though they
have no way of knowing whether those beasts existed back then or
not.
This culture is obsessively materialistic and so it interprets the
words/symbols from the fragments of ancient 'documents' (whether
carved on stone or clay tablets or whatever) to mean something
familiar and acceptable to them. They know chemistry and the
periodic table and so that's what they see.
But what is really going on is that vastly different cultures
that shares little in common with this one, that saw the
universe through very different eyes, made symbols that stood
for ideation, emotion, imagination and intent/will, the basic
elements of reality through which primal qualities act.
Earth, air, fire, and water, are materialistic concepts. Magick
is not materialistic.
Ideation, emotion, imagination, and intent/will are magickal
concepts.
Sid
--
AKA "Evergreen" an Ordained Wiccan Priest
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
~
Tom
>
> What you are seeing in the research you are citing above is the
> classical mistake of the culture-bound scholar: They impose their
> own understanding of reality on what little they can see of the
> past.
The unintentional irony of this is hilarious. "Sidney" claims that
the four element concept originated in the Middle Ages, despite the
abundant evidence that it was known more than a thousand years earlier
in classical Greece. He's attempted to impose his own understanding
of reality on what little he can see of the past. That's exactly the
fault he lays on scholars who demonstrably know a hell of a lot more
than he does.
"Sidney" is a not merely a kook; he's a kook's kook.
Kent
> Earth, air, fire, and water, are materialistic concepts. Magick
> is not materialistic.
Well, we "materialistic" Druids would really appreciate your cessation
of cross-posting to ARD with your "non-materialistic" and certainly
NON-Druid drivel.
>
> Ideation, emotion, imagination, and intent/will are magickal
> concepts.
And? So?
>
> Sid
> --
> AKA "Evergreen" an Ordained Wiccan Priest
My case in point. You're not following a Druid Path, so why are you
speaking about a path you don't know about?
Just quit the cross-posting crap...or just quit cross-posting the
crap...whichever way you'd like to take it.
An Coibhi Drui
Whatever way you look at it, the "Earth, Air, Fire, Water" stuff is
primitive crap unworthy of a Knowledge Society such as out First
World.
Cheers,
Michael.
An Coibhi Drui
wrote:
But it's OK for wiccans, hehehe.
Tom
wrote:
Except that it closely resembles our current "Knowledge Society"
description of the four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and
plasma.
Sometimes it's good to remember that while the people in ancient
times may have been very inaccurate in their explanations, they could
perceive every bit was well as we can.