Attention Two Crows....Any thoughts?
Oldone
below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
Oldone
Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality
WHEREAS we are the conveners of an ongoing series of comprehensive
forums on the abuse and exploitation of Lakota spirituality; and
WHEREAS we represent the recognized traditional spiritual leaders,
traditional elders, and grassroots advocates of the Lakota people; and
WHEREAS for too long we have suffered the unspeakable indignity of
having our most precious Lakota ceremonies and spiritual practices
desecrated, mocked and abused by non-Indian "wannabes," hucksters,
cultists, commercial profiteers and self-styled "New Age shamans" and
their followers; and
WHEREAS with horror and outrage we see this disgraceful expropriation
of our sacred Lakota traditions has reached epidemic proportions in
urban areas throughout the country; and
WHEREAS our precious Sacred Pipe is being desecrated through the sale
of pipestone pipes at flea markets, powwows, and "New Age" retail
stores; and
WHEREAS pseudo-religious corporations have been formed to charge people
money for admission into phony "sweatlodges" and "vision quest"
programs; and
WHEREAS sacrilegious "sundances" for non-Indians are being conducted by
charlatans and cult leaders who promote abominable and obscene
imitations of our sacred Lakota sundance rites; and
WHEREAS non-Indians have organized themselves into imitation "tribes,"
assigning themselves make-believe "Indian names" to facilitate their
wholesale expropriation and commercialization of our Lakota traditions;
and
WHEREAS academic disciplines have sprung up at colleges and
universities institutionalizing the sacrilegious imitation of our
spiritual practices by students and instructors under the guise of
educational programs in "shaminism;" and
WHEREAS non-Indian charlatans and "wannabes" are selling books that
promote the systematic colonization of our Lakota spirituality; and
WHEREAS the television and film industry continues to saturate the
entertainment media with vulgar, sensationalist and grossly distorted
representations of Lakota spirituality and culture which reinforce the
public's negative stereotyping of Indian people and which gravely
impair the self-esteem of our children; and
WHEREAS individuals and groups involved in "the New Age Movement,"
in "the men's movement," in "neo-paganism" cults and in "shamanism"
workshops all have exploited the spiritual traditions of our Lakota
people by imitating our ceremonial ways and by mixing such imitation
rituals with non-Indian occult practices in an offensive and harmful
pseudo-religious hodgepodge; and
WHEREAS the absurd public posturing of this scandalous assortment of
psuedo-Indian charlatans, "wannabes," commercial profiteers, cultists
and "New Age shamans" comprises a momentous obstacle in the struggle of
traditional Lakota people for an adequate public appraisal of the
legitimate political, legal and spiritual needs of real Lakota people;
and
WHEREAS this exponential exploitation of our Lakota spiritual
traditions requires that we take immediate action to defend our most
precious Lakota spirituality from further contamination, desecration
and abuse;
THEREFORE WE RESOLVE AS FOLLOWS:
1. We hereby and henceforth declare war against all persons who persist
in exploiting, abusing and misrepresenting the sacred traditions and
spiritual practices of our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.
2. We call upon all our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota brothers and sisters
from reservations, reserves, and traditional communities in the United
States and Canada to actively and vocally oppose this alarming take-
over and systematic destruction of our sacred traditions.
3. We urge our people to coordinate with their tribal members living in
urban areas to identify instances in which our sacred traditions are
being abused, and then to resist this abuse, utilizing whatever
specific tactics are necessary and sufficient --for example
demonstrations, boycotts, press conferences, and acts of direct
intervention.
4. We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota people to take
action to prevent our own people from contributing to and enabling the
abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders;
for, as we all know, there are certain ones among our own people who
are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no
regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole.
5. We assert a posture of zero-tolerance for any "white man's shaman"
who rises from within our own communities to "authorize" the
expropriation of our ceremonial ways by non-Indians; all such "plastic
medicine men" are enemies of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.
6. We urge traditional people, tribal leaders, and governing councils
of all other Indian nations, to join us in calling for an immediate end
to this rampant exploitation of our respective American Indian sacred
traditions by issuing statements denouncing such abuse; for it is not
the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people alone whose spiritual practices
are being systematically violated by non-Indians.
7. We urge all our Indian brothers and sisters to act decisively and
boldly in our present campaign to end the destruction of our sacred
traditions, keeping in mind our highest duty as Indian people: to
preserve the purity of our precious traditions for our future
generations, so that our children and our children's children will
survive and prosper in the sacred manner intended for each of our
respective peoples by our Creator.
Wilmer Stampede Mesteth; (Oglala Lakota); Traditional Spiritual Leader
& Lakota Culture Instructor; Oglala Lakota College, Pine Ridge, South
Dakota
Darrell Standing Elk; (Sicangu Lakota); President, Center for the
SPIRIT, San Fancisco, California, & Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Phyllis Swift Hawk; (Kul Wicasa Lakota); Tiospaye Wounspe Waokiye;
Wanblee, South Dakota
--
"Chop wood, carry water."
Ancient Tibetan Proverb
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Roxy
you don't mind that I'm going to give mine as well. Must be a natural
assumption I've developed, that others would really care about my
opinions on anything. Anyways, just take it how you'd like.
I am not native american and know remarkably little about general
native american spirituality and specific Lakota practices.
IMHO: regarding the below statements, the Lakota tribes, or those
interested in protecting their beliefs, practices, etc should create
their own organization. A stamp from their "official" organization
would be required for any practices to truly bu "authentic" or "real".
Beyond that, I really don't see the point. And I know it has to do
because I'm NOT native american, but there it is. Native Americans
aren't the only ones with these types of complaints or facing these
issues. Any and all religions throughout the world are facing these
issues as ancient philosophies become more and more interesting to the
public and foreign eye.
It seems easier to me that instead of trying to STOP the raging flood,
it would be wiser to build a boat and stay at the top. ;-)
Roxy
--
AIM:DarkRamoth URL:http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa ICQ:43055777
"The United States is the glory, jest, and terror of Mankind."
--James M. Minifie, 1968
In article <8q5afv$i84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
>
> Oldone
Oldone
Roxy <rmk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I know you asked specifically for Two Crows opinions and ideas. I hope
> you don't mind that I'm going to give mine as well. Must be a natural
> assumption I've developed, that others would really care about my
> opinions on anything. Anyways, just take it how you'd like.
I appreciate all comments.
>
> I am not native american and know remarkably little about general
> native american spirituality and specific Lakota practices.
You won't find much out there on the specific practices and there are
reasons for this. You will find much of the wisdom and some great
quotes by some great Native Americans, though.
>
> IMHO: regarding the below statements, the Lakota tribes, or those
> interested in protecting their beliefs, practices, etc should create
> their own organization. A stamp from their "official" organization
> would be required for any practices to truly bu "authentic" or "real".
This has been done concerning the world of art. If you try to pass
something off as NA art without a certificate of authenticity and a
number (CDIB) you can be fined. Spirituality is harder to "stamp."
>
> Beyond that, I really don't see the point. And I know it has to do
> because I'm NOT native american, but there it is. Native Americans
> aren't the only ones with these types of complaints or facing these
> issues.
This is very true. And too, can spirituality be stolen?
Any and all religions throughout the world are facing these
> issues as ancient philosophies become more and more interesting to the
> public and foreign eye.
>
> It seems easier to me that instead of trying to STOP the raging flood,
> it would be wiser to build a boat and stay at the top. ;-)
Again, this is harder, but I am inclined to agree with you. It is a
tough call, eh? I appreciate your comments very much.
Oldone
>
> Roxy
> --
> AIM:DarkRamoth URL:http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa ICQ:43055777
>
> "The United States is the glory, jest, and terror of Mankind."
> --James M. Minifie, 1968
>
> In article <8q5afv$i84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> > below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> > For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
> >
> > Oldone
>
BirdTribe
Oldone wrote:
>
> I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
I know I am not TC but these bozos are a bit overboard. I was involved
in getting Fanzone locked up for fraud with the help of Two Horses and
the New Orleans PD. So.. it is not like I do not understand the issues
but these clowns are taking it a bit too far.. One of those _white men_
may have been given the spiritual keys.. Smacks of racism and jihad to
me. And who is to say a few of the NDN people are not fit to perform
these rites by virtue of a hidden mind set not up to tribal standards?
Just what separates Lakota Spirituality from the commonality of the
spirituality of man? Who owns energies of the earth and skies and the
DNA coil? Who is to say that a white man seeking those ways is not a
reincarnated member of that tribe from the 1800's .. etc.. etc..
Yer Bro
BirdTribe
--
* Nature is the most politically explosive issue in the world *
Oldone
bt20...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
> Oldone wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> > below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> > For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
>
> I know I am not TC but these bozos are a bit overboard. I was involved
> in getting Fanzone locked up for fraud with the help of Two Horses and
> the New Orleans PD. So.. it is not like I do not understand the issues
> but these clowns are taking it a bit too far.. One of those _white
men_
> may have been given the spiritual keys.. Smacks of racism and jihad to
> me. And who is to say a few of the NDN people are not fit to perform
> these rites by virtue of a hidden mind set not up to tribal standards?
> Just what separates Lakota Spirituality from the commonality of the
> spirituality of man? Who owns energies of the earth and skies and the
> DNA coil? Who is to say that a white man seeking those ways is not a
> reincarnated member of that tribe from the 1800's .. etc.. etc..
>
> Yer Bro
> BirdTribe
>
Exactly! You raise some good points, Brother Bird. As I said, can
anyone steal spirituality?
Oldone
BirdTribe
Oldone wrote:
>
> In article <39C6426A...@mindspring.com>,
> bt20...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oldone wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> > > below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> > > For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
> >
> > I know I am not TC but these bozos are a bit overboard. I was involved
> > in getting Fanzone locked up for fraud with the help of Two Horses and
> > the New Orleans PD. So.. it is not like I do not understand the issues
> > but these clowns are taking it a bit too far.. One of those _white
> men_
> > may have been given the spiritual keys.. Smacks of racism and jihad to
> > me. And who is to say a few of the NDN people are not fit to perform
> > these rites by virtue of a hidden mind set not up to tribal standards?
> > Just what separates Lakota Spirituality from the commonality of the
> > spirituality of man? Who owns energies of the earth and skies and the
> > DNA coil? Who is to say that a white man seeking those ways is not a
> > reincarnated member of that tribe from the 1800's .. etc.. etc..
> >
> > Yer Bro
> > BirdTribe
> >
>
> Exactly! You raise some good points, Brother Bird. As I said, can
> anyone steal spirituality?
They want spiritual war?? I have my clown suit and a full pouch of
Barnum and Bailey's make-up for clowns on the go.. Do they not know
"_Nothing_ is Sacred".
Yer Bro
BirdTribe
>
> Oldone
Oldone
> Barnum and Bailey's make-up for clowns on the go.. Do they not know
> "_Nothing_ is Sacred".
>
> Yer Bro
> BirdTribe
>
> >
> > Oldone
>
> --
Oldone
Jaqueline
> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:57:17 GMT
> From: Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca
> Subject: Attention Two Crows....Any thoughts?
>
> I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
>
> Oldone
I know that this is directed for Two Crows to read. But, I am adding in my
opinion here, as a Medicinal Marijuana Activist. I read a "Hidden Agenda"
here, in this. This is not, intended to benefit Indian's and their
"Sacred" Traditions. This is intended to exploit and harm them further.
--
Unsolicited e-mail is "always welcome"
ISP: <http://www.hemp.net>
IRC: skyfire /
port#: 6667 O/////||Jaqueline - Pagan, High Priestess and Witch}
ICQ#: 69575915 \
A.R.W. Photo Page: <http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html>
If the D.E.A. is looking for Jaqueline, she can be found in her living
room sucking on her Medicine Pipe. Sleep for a little while... Fear
nothing.
Sean MacUisdin
unless there is a genetic marker that red flags them as a legitimate
member. Hmmmmm.............
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
against Canada)
Roxy
Sean MacUisdin <sean.ma...@home.com> wrote:
> Oldone wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> > below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> > For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
> >
> > Oldone
> >
> > Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality
< snip huge long useless crud >
> Rather racist, no? One can't abide by the precepts of a given culture
> unless there is a genetic marker that red flags them as a legitimate
> member. Hmmmmm.............
> --
> Air muir 's air tir,
>
> Sean of Clan Uisdin
> -------------------
> If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
> bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
< snip Sean's large (tho lovely) signature. hehehe >
I had thoughts along those lines as well. It's truly sad that such a
mindset should exist. I've had questions rumbling through my mind
lately regarding the native american spiritualities. I wonder the
number of spiritual elders from the NA camps that refuse to teach white
students. I hope it's not very large. Education and sharing should be a
natural goal, not something to fight. Useless to fight anyways, IMHO.
Roxy
--
AIM:DarkRamoth URL:http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa ICQ:43055777
We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a
journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which
no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we
come at last to regard the world.
- Marcel Proust, "Remembrance of Things Past"
Sean MacUisdin
> > Rather racist, no? One can't abide by the precepts of a given culture
> > unless there is a genetic marker that red flags them as a legitimate
> > member. Hmmmmm.............
> > --
> > Air muir 's air tir,
> >
> > Sean of Clan Uisdin
> > -------------------
> > If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
> > bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
>
> < snip Sean's large (tho lovely) signature. hehehe >
Thanks.
> I had thoughts along those lines as well. It's truly sad that such a
> mindset should exist. I've had questions rumbling through my mind
> lately regarding the native american spiritualities. I wonder the
> number of spiritual elders from the NA camps that refuse to teach white
> students. I hope it's not very large. Education and sharing should be a
> natural goal, not something to fight. Useless to fight anyways, IMHO.
I'm thinking they've retained much of the Christian teachings of
intolerance.
lilly...@my-deja.com
am involved with, that is experiencing similar problems.) So many newer
religions have borrowed from other religions that are far more ancient.
I dunno, does anyone hold the exclusive rights, or copyright? I am
sympathetic to the cause and I can never truly know the pain that their
culture has suffered, by the same token, one would think that to teach
and help others might be a better way to get that message out, vs. war.
Just my cents here...
~L
--
Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the gore...
Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a widdershins.
Oldone
Oldone
Oldone
one hand, spirituality belongs to no one, on the other, many tribes
have been exploited. I think a declaration of war is a tad much.
Oldone
--
"Chop wood, carry water."
Ancient Tibetan Proverb
Two Crows
I guess people have been waiting on me to reply to this...well, maybe
some of them have. I received this Declaration on one of my Aimlist mailings
some time ago. I had mixed feelings about it then, and still do. About a
week after I received this I also read a rather nasty set of letters between
Russell Means and Ed McGaa in Shaman's Drum. I also had some mixed feelings
about that. Not long after that I saw Russell Means and Floyd Red Crow
Westeman on the Rosanne Barr Show asking prayers over some Thanksgiving set
while Rosanne stood by and laughed up a storm in her Wal-Mart "Pocahontas"
costume. Lakota people never prayed over the Puritan's food in Plymouth, and
Russell isn't even Lakota as I understand it. Again mixed feelings.
I understand that NDNs have been blatantly robbed even after they were
tossed on the rez, and that dominant society is still trying to hold them
back in many ways. Being NDN is a fad in modern society today, and now that
its cool to be NDN the very people who were robbing them are now selling
"native" art and even trying to pass themselves off as "medicine people" so
they can sell phony ceremonies too. As if this wasn't bad enough, now there
are lots of NDNs who are selling themselves off as "medicine people" so they
can get money from the gullible. Its mostly white middle to upper-class "new
age" gullible I might add, who believe that all Natives are mystical, just
like they believe all Asians know martial arts. With all this going on I can
see how some Lakota College professors and Culture Teachers could make such
a declaration of war on the theft of Lakota Spirituality. I can understand
it, but I don't agree with it entirely.
Contrary to dominant society beliefs Native Americans are people, and
all of them are different just like all other peoples. In our history there
were white men who kept their personal promises to the NDNs, and there were
Native Americans who betrayed their tribes. With people it is always a mixed
bag, and NDNs are no different. There are white people who really have been
gifted by the spirits and the ancestors to learn sacred things, and there
are natives who don't know their own culture as well as some white people
do. This doesn't make it right for white people to think that native
spirituality should be handed over to them like a Whopper at the drive-thru.
It doesn't make it right for some natives to tell every native that they
aren't allowed to teach honest non-native seekers either.
This declaration of war came from some Lakota people, not THE Lakota
Nation. It wasn't signed by elected Chiefs, or Tribal Council Members, and
it wasn't signed by all the accepted Elders there are on all the Sioux
reservations either. The sentiment this document contains is not shared by
all Lakota peoples, but I would say that the issues it expresses are
important to all Native Americans even if not all of them agree with it.
Some Lakota people are too busy worrying about enough food to eat, staying
warm in the winter, or staying sober in a place where hope is hard to come
by to concern themselves with what a bunch of new-agers think is
hocus-pocus. A few others are too concerned with how they will line their
pockets with Federal and Tribal dollars to be bothered with the changes that
could save the dignity of their people.
Lakota are people, and they all don't agree on anything. How do I know
that not all agree with the declaration? The website you gave me also has a
set of responses listed with it. I would say that I've been talking with
some Lakota people but the hardliners would want to know who, and what
Elder, and what family, and have I been to Camp Justice lately.
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/ Under the heading "Legal Concerns," and
sub-heading "Declaration of War against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality"
is a set of links to responses to it from a number of people. Not all of
them were favorable, and not all of them were non-native respondents.
As far as Lakota Spirituality is concerned, I believe it was Black Elk's
Vision that the Lakota People were supposed to teach their white brothers
about how to live with Mother Earth so that the Blue Man will not destroy
all peoples. I believe his vision included all peoples dancing around the
Sacred Tree, and not just Lakota or NDN peoples.
In my non-card-carrying, 1/8th at best blood quantum, never visited the
Crow Rez, white dominant society raised, Big Mac feed, got a name from a
"plastic," humble lily-white, kola opinion...The Pipe, The Inipi, The
Sundance, and all Traditional Lakota (Native) Ceremonies can take care of
themselves! THEY have a way of weeding out the fakers because the
Grandfathers and Grandmothers know who are "real" and who are "plastics!"
THEY know too who out in the wasichu clanless tribe is sincere when they
pray, and when they pour some water on some rocks in the little hut they
built. I for one never try to pass myself off as anything but who I am, and
I never call what I do in my own little sweat lodge "Lakota." Now I have
already had the pleasure of running afoul of some people who believe that I
shouldn't pour water over hot rocks to cleanse myself and connect with "all
my relatives," but they can't take that from me because the Northeastern
Europeans did it, and it belongs to MY People. That some spirits come to me
is also my business, and last I checked they didn't speak Lakota to me, so I
guess they came over from Europe too...unless the spirits speak to sincere
people in their own tongue...naw, that would mean that the spirits honor who
honors them, even if they aren't Lakota!
BB
TC
Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8q5afv$i84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
<snipt>
Two Crows
> This has been done concerning the world of art. If you try to pass
> something off as NA art without a certificate of authenticity and a
> number (CDIB) you can be fined. Spirituality is harder to "stamp."
The particular Act you are speaking of is not being enforced as it should.
There are few cases being brought to justice. In fact it is basically up to
the Tribes to regulate, and make complaints of violations. The Federal Govt
isn't doing much of anything to reign in the thousands of non-native
craftsmen selling their goods as "native," or that mention the name of a
recognized tribe in the transaction. Just take a look on E-Bay, or the rest
of the net for Native American Crafts. What you'll find is a wide array of
non-native goods, many of which are ceramic, pewter, and plastic things that
have never seen a rez in all their days. There are still millions of dollars
of Asian beadwork being sold as "native," and "indian." Many of the artisans
used by museums (including federally supported museums) to repair authentic
Native American artifacts are non-native. Also the Act doesn't adequately
cover Native American music or lyrics.
BB
TC
Hybiscus
What are blue people?
This was a really good finish to your thoughts.
Oldone
"Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
> Oldone:
> I guess people have been waiting on me to reply to this...well,
maybe
> some of them have. I received this Declaration on one of my Aimlist
mailings
> some time ago.
I did too but got another one a few days ago. They must be duplicating
emails.
I had mixed feelings about it then, and still do. About a
> week after I received this I also read a rather nasty set of letters
between
> Russell Means and Ed McGaa in Shaman's Drum. I also had some mixed
feelings
> about that.
Have you ever heard Russell speak? I heard him once and his presence
is commanding to say the least.
Not long after that I saw Russell Means and Floyd Red Crow
> Westeman on the Rosanne Barr Show asking prayers over some
Thanksgiving set
> while Rosanne stood by and laughed up a storm in her Wal-
Mart "Pocahontas"
> costume.
Another reason I rarely watch TV.
Lakota people never prayed over the Puritan's food in Plymouth, and
> Russell isn't even Lakota as I understand it.
Yes, TC, Means is Oglala/Lakota. He was raised on the Pine Ridge Rez.
Again mixed feelings.
> I understand that NDNs have been blatantly robbed even after they
were
> tossed on the rez, and that dominant society is still trying to hold
them
> back in many ways.
This is very true.
Being NDN is a fad in modern society today, and now that
> its cool to be NDN the very people who were robbing them are now
selling
> "native" art
The selling of art under the auspices of NA art is still going on but
it is better since the NAACL (Native American Arts and Crafts Law) of
1990. At least now hawkers can be fined or imprisioned if they are
caught. The one nice clause in the law does state that one can be
granted a non-member artisan right by a tribe to paint and sell work as
a Native American art. This is beneficial to those who are not tribal
members but do beautiful art work.
and even trying to pass themselves off as "medicine people" so
> they can sell phony ceremonies too.
This is what bothers me the most. My own grandfather was an Ojibwa
Holy Man and for someone to pass themselves off as such without benefit
of tradition or training is dishonorable and disrespectful.
As if this wasn't bad enough, now there
> are lots of NDNs who are selling themselves off as "medicine people"
so they
> can get money from the gullible.
Yep! This too
Its mostly white middle to upper-class "new
> age" gullible I might add, who believe that all Natives are mystical,
just
> like they believe all Asians know martial arts.
LOL! I know.
With all this going on I can
> see how some Lakota College professors and Culture Teachers could
make such
> a declaration of war on the theft of Lakota Spirituality. I can
understand
> it, but I don't agree with it entirely.
We may understand but we do not have to agree.
> Contrary to dominant society beliefs Native Americans are people,
and
> all of them are different just like all other peoples. In our history
there
> were white men who kept their personal promises to the NDNs, and
there were
> Native Americans who betrayed their tribes. With people it is always
a mixed
> bag, and NDNs are no different. There are white people who really
have been
> gifted by the spirits and the ancestors to learn sacred things, and
there
> are natives who don't know their own culture as well as some white
people
> do. This doesn't make it right for white people to think that native
> spirituality should be handed over to them like a Whopper at the
drive-thru.
> It doesn't make it right for some natives to tell every native that
they
> aren't allowed to teach honest non-native seekers either.
If someone comes to me honestly seeking information, I will relate
such. I would not dishonor my tribe or people by relaying anything
that was private but there are many things that can be and should be
shared. If I am unsure, I usually go to one of the Elders and ask for
permission.
> This declaration of war came from some Lakota people, not THE
Lakota
> Nation.
Correct!
It wasn't signed by elected Chiefs, or Tribal Council Members, and
> it wasn't signed by all the accepted Elders there are on all the Sioux
> reservations either.
I prefer to not reveal names here, but there are three elected Chiefs
who do not endorse this declaration.
The sentiment this document contains is not shared by
> all Lakota peoples, but I would say that the issues it expresses are
> important to all Native Americans even if not all of them agree with
it.
> Some Lakota people are too busy worrying about enough food to eat,
staying
> warm in the winter, or staying sober in a place where hope is hard to
come
> by to concern themselves with what a bunch of new-agers think is
> hocus-pocus.
Also true. And you and I have seen this first hand.
A few others are too concerned with how they will line their
> pockets with Federal and Tribal dollars to be bothered with the
changes that
> could save the dignity of their people.
You nailed it here.
> Lakota are people, and they all don't agree on anything. How do I
know
> that not all agree with the declaration? The website you gave me also
has a
> set of responses listed with it.
I read one or two of the responses but pretty much considered it a
waste of my time.
I would say that I've been talking with
> some Lakota people but the hardliners would want to know who, and what
> Elder, and what family, and have I been to Camp Justice lately.
LOL!
> http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/ Under the heading "Legal
Concerns," and
> sub-heading "Declaration of War against Exploiters of Lakota
Spirituality"
> is a set of links to responses to it from a number of people. Not all
of
> them were favorable, and not all of them were non-native respondents.
> As far as Lakota Spirituality is concerned, I believe it was
Black Elk's
> Vision that the Lakota People were supposed to teach their white
brothers
> about how to live with Mother Earth so that the Blue Man will not
destroy
> all peoples.
Yes. How can the Sacred Hoop be mended if we war with our brothers and
sisters?
I believe his vision included all peoples dancing around the
> Sacred Tree, and not just Lakota or NDN peoples.
> In my non-card-carrying, 1/8th at best blood quantum, never
visited the
> Crow Rez, white dominant society raised, Big Mac feed, got a name
from a
> "plastic," humble lily-white, kola opinion...
I was more fortunate. I had the best of both worlds. I spent much
time with my grandparents on the rez, especially grandfather.
The Pipe, The Inipi, The
> Sundance, and all Traditional Lakota (Native) Ceremonies can take
care of
> themselves! THEY have a way of weeding out the fakers because the
> Grandfathers and Grandmothers know who are "real" and who
are "plastics!"
Yes, and we tell our children who is who and what is what.
> THEY know too who out in the wasichu clanless tribe is sincere
when they
> pray, and when they pour some water on some rocks in the little hut
they
> built. I for one never try to pass myself off as anything but who I
am, and
> I never call what I do in my own little sweat lodge "Lakota."
If I ever called myself Lakota, grandfather would have my butt and he's
deader than a doornail! My mother would disown me.
Now I have
> already had the pleasure of running afoul of some people who believe
that I
> shouldn't pour water over hot rocks to cleanse myself and connect
with "all
> my relatives," but they can't take that from me because the
Northeastern
> Europeans did it, and it belongs to MY People.
Like I said, you can't steal spirituality.
That some spirits come to me
> is also my business, and last I checked they didn't speak Lakota to
me, so I
> guess they came over from Europe too...unless the spirits speak to
sincere
> people in their own tongue...naw, that would mean that the spirits
honor who
> honors them, even if they aren't Lakota!
Laughing my ass off!
Oldone
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8q5afv$i84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > I would be interested in your take on what I have cut and pasted
> > below. My feelings are mixed since some the ideas below seem vague.
> > For more info, see httP://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
> <snipt>
>
>
--
lilly...@my-deja.com
For sure. I don't think causes need to do PR'd either, I mean, you
either get it, or you don't, but I think this casts them in an
unfavorable light. So many of the newer religions have stolen from the
ancient religions, that it's just a common thing, sad, but common. I'm
Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when somehow I
just think this could have been handled better.
~L
> --
> "Chop wood, carry water."
>
> Ancient Tibetan Proverb
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Hybiscus
> For sure. I don't think causes need to do PR'd either, I mean, you
> either get it, or you don't, but I think this casts them in an
> unfavorable light. So many of the newer religions have stolen from the
> ancient religions, that it's just a common thing, sad, but common. I'm
> Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when somehow I
> just think this could have been handled better.
Hey.. I have a thought, not a flame.
Regarding your comment: "So many of the newer religions have stolen from
the ancient religions, "
What if this is what your higher self is teaching you? Is it stealing?
Is there not a reason why we are being taught this? Or have an interest,
and research and use it for ourselves? We are drawn to it for a reason?
Have any comments on this? I find it interesting.
Thanks
Hy
naismith
>
> <snipt>
>
> I'm
> Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when somehow I
> just think this could have been handled better.
>
Anyone who has seen your picture or meet you, Lilly, and thinks that you
are a guy, (bad, white or otherwise), may have some serious perceptual
impairments. ;)
> ~L
> --
> Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
> the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
> He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the gore...
> Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a widdershins.
>
Trevor (Magic does not taste like chicken) Naismith
Two Crows
<snipt>
> I did too but got another one a few days ago. They must be duplicating
> emails.
Well sometimes stuff gets duplicated on the Aimlists just like it does here
in wiccan-wonderland.
> Have you ever heard Russell speak? I heard him once and his presence
> is commanding to say the least.
How do I say this and keep my butt below my collar? Leave it to say that
there is some controversy here in Ohio with some things that Mr. Means may
have allegedly said or done.
> Another reason I rarely watch TV.
TV can be a real education...even if it only teaches us how not to act.
> Yes, TC, Means is Oglala/Lakota. He was raised on the Pine Ridge Rez.
Again I am treading on thin ice here, so I'll share what has been told to me
about this issue in private e-mail. That is I'll share it once I have
consulted some people again to see if they are willing to stand by what they
have said if it ever becomes a real issue, and to put the reputation of
their family on it.
> The selling of art under the auspices of NA art is still going on but
> it is better since the NAACL (Native American Arts and Crafts Law) of
> 1990. At least now hawkers can be fined or imprisioned if they are
> caught. The one nice clause in the law does state that one can be
> granted a non-member artisan right by a tribe to paint and sell work as
> a Native American art. This is beneficial to those who are not tribal
> members but do beautiful art work.
This law is an Act, and it is not being enforced as it should be. Check out
my reply to the same subject a little further up in the thread.
The reason this Act is so important to me is that I do beadwork,
leatherwork, and am learning quillwork (yes I know this is all women's
work...but I was a tribal woman in a past life so sue me). I wanted to make
perfectly sure that I never misrepresent myself when I sell it. What I have
discovered is that I may mention my descent in the advertisements or blurbs
attached to the item, but I may not represent myself or my work as belonging
to any tribe that does not recognized me as a member and tribal craftsman. I
may not use the name of a tribe, or words that represents my work as
authentic Native American craftsmanship.
Maybe I could scan some of my work and e-mail you if you're interested in
seeing it. I also am a Pow Wow Singer, and if ever we make an album (as we
have discussed) I don't want to be caught in some legal hassles over us not
all having cards.
> This is what bothers me the most. My own grandfather was an Ojibwa
> Holy Man and for someone to pass themselves off as such without benefit
> of tradition or training is dishonorable and disrespectful.
Again without mentioning any names I am acquainted with a woman who is a
long-time Harner Certified Shaman, and who has also spent some time on the
Rez. She was questioned at length multiple times about being a "medicine
person," and a "shaman." She replies by saying that she is a "student of
shamanism," and that seems be accepted well by the people she spends time
with.
> If someone comes to me honestly seeking information, I will relate
> such. I would not dishonor my tribe or people by relaying anything
> that was private but there are many things that can be and should be
> shared. If I am unsure, I usually go to one of the Elders and ask for
> permission.
I just tell them where I got my information, after I explain that what I am
sharing is my way and that not everyone does it the way I do. If what they
are asking about was taught to me by someone I tell them their name, if I
got some information from a book I tell them what book.
> I prefer to not reveal names here, but there are three elected Chiefs
> who do not endorse this declaration.
Being sovereign Nations I would expect that any declaration of war
pronounced by them would get the same attention Wounded Knee did both times.
> The sentiment this document contains is not shared by
> > all Lakota peoples, but I would say that the issues it expresses are
> > important to all Native Americans even if not all of them agree with
> it.
> > Some Lakota people are too busy worrying about enough food to eat,
> staying
> > warm in the winter, or staying sober in a place where hope is hard to
> come
> > by to concern themselves with what a bunch of new-agers think is
> > hocus-pocus.
>
> Also true. And you and I have seen this first hand.
One of the most powerful events in my life happened on the Missaugua Reserve
in Ontario. The biggest dancer came to the mike and shared his life story
with the whole arena. He told of how he lived as a drunk, and treated his
people badly, how he stole, cheated, lied and hurt people. He told about how
he treated his own family badly. He held up an Eagle Staff (Flag) and
explained that he had held that staff for several years because he
remembered who he was and stayed sober so he could honor his people. He said
that he would always be a drunk, but that now he had a reason to a drunk
that didn't drink. This same Warrior fanned us up four times. We played the
same song for 45 minutes, I thought I was gonna die. Then the spirits came
and I forgot where I was. I tasted water in my mouth, and my arms became
light again, and a breeze cooled me off. The way cleared and I was face to
face with this big grim NDN man as we hit the last beats of our song. Then
he looked around at all of us and placed an eagle feather on our drum...
> A few others are too concerned with how they will line their
> > pockets with Federal and Tribal dollars to be bothered with the
> changes that
> > could save the dignity of their people.
>
> You nailed it here.
These are the people who are the real enemies of the Lakota.
> Yes. How can the Sacred Hoop be mended if we war with our brothers and
> sisters?
There was a man the whites called King Phillip. Had he received the support
of only a few more tribes we would not be typing this in English.
> I believe his vision included all peoples dancing around the
> > Sacred Tree, and not just Lakota or NDN peoples.
> > In my non-card-carrying, 1/8th at best blood quantum, never
> visited the
> > Crow Rez, white dominant society raised, Big Mac feed, got a name
> from a
> > "plastic," humble lily-white, kola opinion...
>
> I was more fortunate. I had the best of both worlds. I spent much
> time with my grandparents on the rez, especially grandfather.
I am very happy for you that you got to have these things, I know how it
must have made some things easier for you. It might surprise you but now
that I am over myself a little more I am glad for what I got too. I am a
white man by all outward appearances, even though I have hazle eyes and very
dark straight hair (dark brown, not black). My beard gives it away too. All
this doesn't take away what is inside me, and the various bloods that have
mixed in my past, and my past lives.
It has been very hard for me. The last Rez Lakota man that came to an
Inter-Tribal Learning Circle that I used to attend said that we were all
playing NDN, that there were no "real" NDNs in Ohio. Some fellow by the name
of Banks also had some harsh things to say to us Ohio people. I have some
more to say about this in private if you would like to know.
I've had some Aim members tell me that I'm a wannabe, and that my drumming
and beadwork is all game playing. I've had to decide to reject the pipe when
it came to me because I didn't want the fights it would cause, not because I
was afraid of the responsibility it represented. I decided that I could
honor my ancestors, all of them, just as well without the animosity it would
have brought. That it came to me in a sacred way is important to me, but
that it was a test I could have taken either way is also important. I am
glad that it came, and equally glad that I was able to hear the lesson that
came with it. I still get to spend time with pipe carriers who learned on
the Rez though, so I can share in the power of that ceremony if I want to.
What made it all worth the pain was when in my most desperate hour my
Ancient Grandmother came to me from the other side and spoke words of
comfort to me. Not like words of comfort that others would have expected,
only that she shared my pain, and I hers. She said that she had lived so I
could face that struggle with her, and that all my ancestors had lived to
give me breath, and that they knew who I was and lived in me. She said that
my defeats and victories were their as well. It was a powerful sharing that
was both sweet and terribly bitter. I touched my relatives then in a way
that I will never forget...
> Yes, and we tell our children who is who and what is what.
My daughter will go home where I never can. I have seen that she will
return, while I have to prepare her as best I can with what I have. I on the
other hand will never return home because I was not meant to.
> If I ever called myself Lakota, grandfather would have my butt and he's
> deader than a doornail! My mother would disown me.
Some Shawnee folks told me that they invented the name Cherokee...and that
it means "beggar." Of course the Tsalagi people I know said something
similar about the Shawnee. After that they both still rush to the circle
when the food is ready though, while we Crow people watch that the enemy
doesn't come in and kick their butts while they glut on all that good meat
we hunted for them...
> Like I said, you can't steal spirituality.
Except maybe from people who feel like they don't have any while the other
guys around them do?
> That some spirits come to me
> > is also my business, and last I checked they didn't speak Lakota to
> me, so I
> > guess they came over from Europe too...unless the spirits speak to
> sincere
> > people in their own tongue...naw, that would mean that the spirits
> honor who
> > honors them, even if they aren't Lakota!
>
> Laughing my ass off!
The spirits honor who they will...and nothing makes them laugh any harder
than the plans of men...
BB
TC
Oldone
"Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
> Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8q6ug4$gji$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> <snipt>
> > I did too but got another one a few days ago. They must be
duplicating
> > emails.
>
> Well sometimes stuff gets duplicated on the Aimlists just like it
does here
> in wiccan-wonderland.
Yep! And if yer on several lists, ya get the same "stuff."
>
> > Have you ever heard Russell speak? I heard him once and his
presence
> > is commanding to say the least.
>
> How do I say this and keep my butt below my collar? Leave it to say
that
> there is some controversy here in Ohio with some things that Mr.
Means may
> have allegedly said or done.
No doubt and probably not just in Ohio.
>
> > Another reason I rarely watch TV.
>
> TV can be a real education...even if it only teaches us how not to
act.
Well, I do like the Discovery shows. The Crocodile Man is kind of cool.
>
> > Yes, TC, Means is Oglala/Lakota. He was raised on the Pine Ridge
Rez.
>
> Again I am treading on thin ice here, so I'll share what has been
told to me
> about this issue in private e-mail. That is I'll share it once I have
> consulted some people again to see if they are willing to stand by
what they
> have said if it ever becomes a real issue, and to put the reputation
of
> their family on it.
I don't know much about Means except for what I have read or been told
by others. Don't share anything that makes you uncomfortable. It
would not surprise me to hear that things are not as they seem.
This is why I think the clause is so important. No doubt your work is
beautiful and if it is part of your income, I believe that you have the
right to make your heritage known in connection with your work. Even
if it is not part of your income, you still have the right to say that
you are inspired by your heritage. Womans work??? Pshaw! I just
purchased the most beautiful pipe bag made by Dow Hardway of the
Shawnee People. His wife doesn't know a bead from a saw blade, but he
does. Doing the dishes is womans work too but I bet Mak maes ya do
it!!!!!!! hehehehe
>
> Maybe I could scan some of my work and e-mail you if you're
interested in
> seeing it. I also am a Pow Wow Singer, and if ever we make an album
(as we
> have discussed) I don't want to be caught in some legal hassles over
us not
> all having cards.
I don't know about the laws on music making. Does the act apply to the
making of NA music as well?
>
> > This is what bothers me the most. My own grandfather was an Ojibwa
> > Holy Man and for someone to pass themselves off as such without
benefit
> > of tradition or training is dishonorable and disrespectful.
>
> Again without mentioning any names I am acquainted with a woman who
is a
> long-time Harner Certified Shaman, and who has also spent some time
on the
> Rez. She was questioned at length multiple times about being
a "medicine
> person," and a "shaman." She replies by saying that she is a "student
of
> shamanism," and that seems be accepted well by the people she spends
time
> with.
Sounds reasonable to me.
In some ways yes, in others, no. Contrary to popular belief, not all
NA's get money for college, health care etc... I had to work five jobs
to put myself through college and my husband and I put each other
through grad school. We always carried medical insurance on our
children and ourselves and I have yet to go to an Indian Clinic for
free health care.
It might surprise you but now
> that I am over myself a little more I am glad for what I got too. I
am a
> white man by all outward appearances, even though I have hazle eyes
and very
> dark straight hair (dark brown, not black). My beard gives it away
too. All
> this doesn't take away what is inside me, and the various bloods that
have
> mixed in my past, and my past lives.
Only what is on the inside counts.
>
> It has been very hard for me. The last Rez Lakota man that came to an
> Inter-Tribal Learning Circle that I used to attend said that we were
all
> playing NDN, that there were no "real" NDNs in Ohio. Some fellow by
the name
> of Banks also had some harsh things to say to us Ohio people. I have
some
> more to say about this in private if you would like to know.
I would love to hear this in private email. Is this harshness coming
just from the Lakota People? I wonder what makes them think they have
a monopoly on spirit?
>
> I've had some Aim members tell me that I'm a wannabe, and that my
drumming
> and beadwork is all game playing.
Tell them to suck a raw egg!!!!!!!
Can I steal this statement?
Oldone
>
> BB
> TC
Oldone
"naismith" <t_nai...@mailhot.com> wrote:
> lilly...@my-deja.com wrote in article
<8q6upo$gti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> > <snipt>
> >
> > Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when
somehow I
> > just think this could have been handled better.
> >
>
you
> are a guy, (bad, white or otherwise), may have some serious perceptual
> impairments. ;)
>
Ain't it the truth! Damn! She is a looker!
Oldone
> > ~L
> > --
> > Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
> > the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
> > He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the
gore...
> > Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a widdershins.
> >
> Trevor (Magic does not taste like chicken) Naismith
>
>
--
Two Crows
> This is why I think the clause is so important. No doubt your work is
> beautiful and if it is part of your income, I believe that you have the
> right to make your heritage known in connection with your work. Even
> if it is not part of your income, you still have the right to say that
> you are inspired by your heritage. Womans work??? Pshaw! I just
> purchased the most beautiful pipe bag made by Dow Hardway of the
> Shawnee People. His wife doesn't know a bead from a saw blade, but he
> does. Doing the dishes is womans work too but I bet Mak maes ya do
> it!!!!!!! hehehehe
We have a picture of the one and only time I ever did dishes...ok, that's a
joke, but we like it. I do dishes too....
> I don't know about the laws on music making. Does the act apply to the
> making of NA music as well?
There really aren't any. Any old schmoe can come along and take ceremonial
songs, and the Act really isn't too clear on what happens next.
> In some ways yes, in others, no. Contrary to popular belief, not all
> NA's get money for college, health care etc... I had to work five jobs
> to put myself through college and my husband and I put each other
> through grad school. We always carried medical insurance on our
> children and ourselves and I have yet to go to an Indian Clinic for
> free health care.
Yeah, hehehe, there's that too...all NDNs get a medical card, free school
and food vouchers right in their first medicine bag given to them by the
college educated witch doctors...
> > The spirits honor who they will...and nothing makes them laugh any
> harder
> > than the plans of men...
>
>
> Can I steal this statement?
Might as well, I did...
BB
TC
KarenJones
> I guess people have been waiting on me to reply to this...well, maybe
>some of them have. I received this Declaration on one of my Aimlist mailings
>some time ago. I had mixed feelings about it then, and still do. About a week
>after I received this I also read a rather nasty set of letters between
>Russell Means and Ed McGaa in Shaman's Drum. I also had some mixed feelings
>about that.
This is an issue I've always been interested in myself. The commercialization
of spirituality. Having been invited to native Lakota traditional
ceremonies, and what I would describe as sweat-lodges or other ceremonies
commercial in nature, my experience has been a mixed bag. I am not
native American. I will tell you that I was invited to a traditional
Sundance many, many years ago, and all my money was stolen - at
the Sundance - by a young Indian after he asked for shelter from
a rainstorm. I woke up and all my lifesavings that I had taken for my
trip to South Dakota was gone. I guess appearances mean very little;
everyone needs money, aye. ;)
>Not long after that I saw Russell Means and Floyd Red Crow Westeman
>on the Rosanne Barr Show asking prayers over some Thanksgiving set
>while Rosanne stood by and laughed up a storm in her Wal-Mart "Pocahontas"
>costume.
I consider Russell Means to be a warrior; not a healer or medicine
man, but someone who is spiritually growing like everyone else. But I
liked all of the points that you made because they were reasonable.
I also wonder how many of the group of people who are outraged at
the stealing of their spiritual culture are also genuine practitioners
themselves...? I personally don't think spirituality can be stolen
from anybody or anything, but the outer forms of ceremony can be mocked,
misused or mishandled, and that's annoying if it's happening right
in front of you. But when people are young seekers maybe any
person they meet on their path, charlaton or not, can teach them
something about lessons in discernment.
K. Curio Jones
lilly...@my-deja.com
"naismith" <t_nai...@mailhot.com> wrote:
> lilly...@my-deja.com wrote in article
<8q6upo$gti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> > <snipt>
> >
> > Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when
somehow I
> > just think this could have been handled better.
> >
>
you
> are a guy, (bad, white or otherwise), may have some serious perceptual
> impairments. ;)
LOL! Thanky T! (blushes...)
>
> > ~L
> > --
> > Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
> > the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
> > He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the
gore...
> > Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a widdershins.
> >
> Trevor (Magic does not taste like chicken) Naismith
>
>
--
lilly...@my-deja.com
Oldone <oldo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <01c02206$96230700$b90d3ea6@bcsr9999>,
> "naismith" <t_nai...@mailhot.com> wrote:
> > lilly...@my-deja.com wrote in article
> <8q6upo$gti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > >
> > > <snipt>
> > >
> > > Danish, but somehow I'm cast in the bad white guy guise, when
> somehow I
> > > just think this could have been handled better.
> > >
> >
> you
> > are a guy, (bad, white or otherwise), may have some serious
perceptual
> > impairments. ;)
> >
>
So are you gal!
~L
>
> Oldone
>
> > > ~L
> > > --
> > > Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
> > > the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
> > > He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the
> gore...
> > > Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a
widdershins.
> > >
> > Trevor (Magic does not taste like chicken) Naismith
> >
> >
>