Back to Ethics...
Keridiaus L. Jones
Bright Blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
ETHICS AND NEO-PAGANISM
Wicca has no single leader. It has no single body of dogma. It has no
'ultimate athority' that tells people what to believe. If you can hold to a
code of ethics that in some ways is more demanding than most (because
it -requires- you to make decisions for yourself much of the time!) and can
live life with joy and gladness, then read on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Many people today are getting interested in Magick. Books proliferate the
market (whereas a few years ago, they were very difficult to come by). One
of the main things to remember when attempting to learn how to practice
Magick is to keep an "ethical" viewpoint in mind. Remember that Magick is
manipulation. Through Magick, one can manipulate his or her environment,
and the people that are in that environment. It's important to remember
that manipulation of another's Will (i.e. attempting to control them, etc.)
is considered "unethical" by Wiccan standards (as well as by many other
Pagan
traditions).
Another thing that would be considered "unethical" is hexing. A hex is a
baneful or malicious Magickal working with the intent of hurting another
person in some way (by either making them do something that will cause a
hurt, or by causing something else to hurt them). This can be an emotional
hurt, as well as a physical one.
To some, -any- manipulation or changing of the natural order is unethical.
Can you really say that your area needs more rain, and thus perhaps take it
from another......? Think long and hard about -any- magickal
working -before-
you do it, for it -always- has consequences.
I am really surprised by the number of people who are professing to be
Wiccans, and who have adopted the "anything goes" attitude, feeling they can
hex and heal at Will. Anyone who understands the Three Fold Law, or Law of
Karma, realizes that everything will eventually come back on the originator
(and most times, intensified...i.e. Threefold, or even stronger). A person
who is aware of this Law, and yet still practices hex or hurtful Magick
against another is like a person who is cutting off their arm, to spite
themself. It makes no sense!! Yet, I have had communication with a lot of
people who think that by "accepting the consequences" of their actions after
doing this type of Magick, is "accepting responsiblity." However, I would
like to point out that REAL responsiblity is demonstrated by NOT practicing
that type of Magick at all!!
Don't be fooled into thinking that you're free to do whatever you want.....
nothing is FREE. You eventually pay for it, one way or another. True
freedom comes from knowing that you really don't have complete "freedom."
There are rules and regulations that need to be followed (just reference our
legal system for an allegory.....we are one of the "freest" countries in the
world, and yet we have tons of laws that keep us from doing many things..
so, we don't have complete freedom). Our freedom comes from following the
rules, and abiding by them. If this is done, eventually, spiritual
evolution will follow, releasing you from the incarnation cycle, and
LIBERATING you from the physical plane, to begin development on the next.
However, if you fall into the "I can do what I want" trap, you will continue
to be your own worst enemy, causing yourself much pain and suffering for
many lifetimes to come.....and, you will only have yourself to blame for it!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For the Self,
Learn. Knowledge is the basis of all that is. Take in all knowledge,
from any source. Armed in this way, wisdom will be your guide.
Meditate. Go into the Inner Self. Knowledge extends beyond what is read
and learned and far into your Self. For only from our selves is there true
wisdom.
Love. Love all those around. Friends, enemies, Mother Earth and all
that
she holds. But first love yourself.
For others,
Teach. Teaching will raise the level of understanding of the world.
Even though you may have a small number of students, each one student and
every bit of knowledge passed on will be of benefit. Teach carefully. Know
what is being taught and to whom. Teach students what they can learn, as far
as they can go. Only the student can know where the knowledge will take him.
Heal. Use the technique that will be of the most benefit without
overdoing. If what is needed is talk, then talk. If what is needed is direct
use of energy, then use the energy without hesitation.
Walk the Path
Harm None. More than not squishing ants. Be mindful of power both
learned and intuited as well as knowledge imparted. Think about the
consequences before taking action.
Be the Example. Walk the path with love and trust, impart only the
knowledge that will benefit and use your talents for the good, the path will
become evident.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chovhani
conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those who do
have a code break it daily! I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans than
non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased, but that's
my perception. Perhaps our desire to grow and gain wisdom creates out
natural ethical code instinctively. Civilization and religions did not shape
human ethics, it was the other way around. What I'm saying is, we all know
how to behave anyway, writing it down is no guarantee we'll behave any
better.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:1zbF4.659$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> Recent discussion here at the old cybercovenstead has brought me back
to
> the subject of ethics. We've talked about defining ethics in Wicca, and
> arrived at none, with no one agreeing on a common set of values. So I have
> some more food for thought.
> In the distribution of applied occult sciences it seems to me that
there
> are a number of disciplines that warrant some ethical guidelines or the
> possibility of harm is great. Healing and herbalism are disciplines that
can
> in fact bring harm to the practitioner and patient alike if not metered
with
> some ethical guidelines that dissuade from unskilled or unethical
practice.
> There are in fact a number of legal grounds on which the unskilled or
> unethical practitioner can be taken to litigation over harm alleged to
have
> been the result of their practice. The Shamanistic use of mind altering
> substances is another case where harm, and even death can result from
> unskilled or unethical practice. With this in mind I ask if a set of
ethical
> guidelines is viewed as necessary, or if the consensus is that individual
> values are enough?
> In the same light that ethics may be considered necessary to occult
> medicinal disciplines, it is my opinion that such stringent guidelines and
> rules that are in effect for modern western medicine have been unable to
> prevent unethical physicians, greedy pharmaceutical manufacturers, and
> insensitive medical institutions from bringing harm to needy patients. The
> very institution of the Hippocratic Oath has not dissuaded physicians from
> being more interested in money, insurance payments, and prestige over the
> well being of their patients. In fact the art of cures has nothing at all
to
> do with the holistic human being who is being treated more often than
naught
> as a set of symptoms rather than a person that is made up of a confluence
of
> aspects rather than mere flesh and bone. This very systemic problem with
> modern medicine is what has brought on the renaissance of holistic
healing,
> in my opinion. To what degree is it the patient's own responsibility to
> insure ethical treatment while ill or injured? Should there not be laws
that
> govern medicine, cure oriented sciences, and holistic healing? To what
> degree should this need be mitigated by the practitioners themselves? It
> seems apparent that the AMA, and other self-governed bodies, are largely
> incapable of caring out this task with integrity and not self interest.
>
>
> BB
> TC
>
>
Two Crows
Two Crows
BB
TC
Keridiaus L. Jones <kjon...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wJbF4.5198$tk.9...@news3.mia...
Two Crows
perhaps a natural spiritual principle, I must have some concern over ethical
issues that face Paganism today, from my own perspective. I also agree that
as a whole Paganism is replete with great examples of natural ethics in
practice other than theory. It seems to me that Paganism also has its fringe
charlatanry and fundamentalism as well. I have personally experienced, and
observed, several instances that give me pause. I have witnessed hexings,
ill-will, condescending elitism, and suspected even open criminality in some
rare cases. This does not deter me from being a Pagan, but it does limit my
willingness to let down all the walls when in close contact with other
Pagans I am not intimately familiar with (this being not endemic to any
religious or secular portion of humanity alone, I keep up a careful guard
around all human beings). It also causes me to refrain from putting myself
in the best position to become intimately familiar with other human beings.
I would like to live differently. Perhaps my desire to contribute to making
things better than they currently are in some cases leads me down the garden
path...What do you think?
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to the
> conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those who do
> have a code break it daily! I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans
than
> non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased, but
that's
> my perception. Perhaps our desire to grow and gain wisdom creates out
> natural ethical code instinctively. Civilization and religions did not
shape
> human ethics, it was the other way around. What I'm saying is, we all know
> how to behave anyway, writing it down is no guarantee we'll behave any
> better.
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
<snip>
BirdTribe
Two Crows wrote:
> condescending elitism,
Heh.. That is funny considering the diatribes you raise to gain higher _religious_
ground, and ethically place yourself above others here because of you condescendingly
elitist moral stance which differs not much in basis of argument from the inquisition.
The law of ethics in an earth religion are those of nature, not of the city Sun/Temple
cults and Black Popes and False Emperors and their laws and ethics meant to crush the
vitality of the natural human spirit by painting it's aspirations as dark, by subjecting
natural leaders who do not lead others down the path they have predetermined as the only
correct one as evil and attempting to create elitist secret societies.. Thing is
pal...it ain't about ethics no more. Pisces is past and Aquarius is here. It will be
about energy. If an ism holds back evolving dynamics it will be crushed in the grip of
the emerging individualism. Law is based on ethics. Law is found in the fiction section
of the library.
BT2000XL
*Taking no wooden ghawdz from crabalocker fishwives*
--
* Billy Goat Gruff Sez: Smoking trolls removes cancerous growths *
Visit - http://www.birdtribe.com
Rhyanon
BirdTribe <bird...@birdtribe.com> wrote in message
news:38E5EC37...@birdtribe.com...
Rhyanon
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to
the
> conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those
who do
> have a code break it daily!
Right on! But, is a 'code' inflexible? Are there not times when it
may be OK, even necessary for one to break one's code of conduct?
Apparently so, depending on who one asks. ;] When does it become
unjustifiable?
I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans than
> non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased,
but that's
> my perception. Perhaps our desire to grow and gain wisdom creates
out
> natural ethical code instinctively.
Perhaps an expanded awareness and more self responsibility. But I see
a great deal of Pagans with no direction, little awareness, and a
total lack of self control, and thus they have no code to speak of.
Flakes come in all religious flavors, even non religious.
Civilization and religions did not shape
> human ethics, it was the other way around. What I'm saying is, we
all know
> how to behave anyway, writing it down is no guarantee we'll behave
any
> better.
Again, right on. It hasn't worked for the xtians, or moslems,
so......
Of course, the newage way to do it is to verbally proseltyze a One
True Wayism, then jot it down, get Lewellyn to publish and hey
presto, wikkin manifesto! Yecch!
>:)
~Sz.~
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:1zbF4.659$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
Keridiaus L. Jones
yer circle) out. ;-)
Brightest Blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:AIdF4.725$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
Fedor
>While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
>perhaps a natural spiritual principle, I must have some concern over ethical
>issues that face Paganism today, from my own perspective. I also agree that
>as a whole Paganism is replete with great examples of natural ethics in
>practice other than theory. It seems to me that Paganism also has its fringe
>charlatanry and fundamentalism as well.
>Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
>news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
>> Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to the
>> conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those who do
>> have a code break it daily! I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans
>than
>> non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased, but
>that's
>> my perception.
We always know best what we experience ourselves. This is axiomatic to
writers, who usually stick to their own experiences in creating their best
work.
Having said that, I respectfully point out that ethics, whilst often stated in
terms of religion, transcends other human considerations and comes down to a
single point... in my not so humble opinion.
That single point is the relative maturity of the society that gives residence
to and constrains the ethical person. Ethical behavior is only as strong as
its consequences to the individual. Ostracism, intimidation, physical injury,
financial ruin and death are the most frequent consequences in many (most, the
cynic in me assert) modern societies, and only those who succeed in
emotionally and/or physically isolating themselves have the true freedom to
express themselves ethically.
My standard of maturity in a society, perhaps utopian, is that people act
ethically at all times, expect ethical behavior from others, and maintain this
level of societal ethics by a swift, coordinated and balanced response to
unethical behavior. I think this brands me as a libertarian, on top of
utopian, but there it is.
---
Remove "thirty" from the address to respond by e-mail
This sig will self-destruct in five, four, three...
Two Crows
counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational Energetics).
1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is the onus of
the listener.
2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which are sincerely
benevolent in intention.
3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is useful in
discerning reality.
3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of "Black Popery"
generally negates their efficacy.
4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two thousand
years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing way back in
the day.
5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion, spirituality,
and spin energy. Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to the wise in
light of the Two-Fold Flame...
6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
BB
TC
Two Crows
you saying that the use of outside ethical pressures actually inhibits the
expression of natural human ethics? Are you not in fact stating that
codified ethics is unethical? I need to understand before I proceed with my
reply to your assertions...
BB
TC
Fedor <them...@xxdvpn.xorg> wrote in message
news:38e61360...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
<sniptra>
Sean MacUisdin
> We always know best what we experience ourselves. This is axiomatic
to
> writers, who usually stick to their own experiences in creating their best
> work.
>
> Having said that, I respectfully point out that ethics, whilst often stated in
> terms of religion, transcends other human considerations and comes down to a
> single point... in my not so humble opinion.
>
> That single point is the relative maturity of the society that gives residence
> to and constrains the ethical person. Ethical behavior is only as strong as
> its consequences to the individual. Ostracism, intimidation, physical injury,
> financial ruin and death are the most frequent consequences in many (most, the
> cynic in me assert) modern societies, and only those who succeed in
> emotionally and/or physically isolating themselves have the true freedom to
> express themselves ethically.
A sound premise - however, I find it an interesting paradox that in our
'modern' society, the tools used to enforce a code of ethics (Ostracism,
intimidation, physical injury, financial ruin and death to quote you)
seem to be falling under the umbrella of the 'unethical'. One could
surmise that the more modern and mature our society gets, the less
civilized it will be.
> My standard of maturity in a society, perhaps utopian, is that people act
> ethically at all times, expect ethical behavior from others, and maintain this
> level of societal ethics by a swift, coordinated and balanced response to
> unethical behavior. I think this brands me as a libertarian, on top of
> utopian, but there it is.
Oh but if all could follow such a path........
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
against Canada)
BirdTribe
Two Crows wrote:
>
> Well you speak to me at last, I missed you. Ok, ok here's a well thought out
> counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational Energetics).
> 1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is the onus of
> the listener.
Phonon transmission and interpretation according to symbolic and hieroglyphic database.
Flawed if database is inapplicable.
> 2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which are sincerely
> benevolent in intention.
Human laws are a fiction. There were codified to template city societies from getting in
conflict and letting natural ethics take over.
> 3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is useful in
> discerning reality.
Phonon transmission is useful for the telemetrizing of states of being of the receiver.
Further paths of transmission elucidate the nature of the receiver and their
"trustworthiness" as you well know. <see "whelps">
> 3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of "Black Popery"
> generally negates their efficacy.
Use of historical trends elucidates the nattier of paths being forged.
> 4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two thousand
> years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing way back in
> the day.
Last weeks TV Guide is out of date. It was written for transmissions that took place
last week.
> 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion, spirituality,
> and spin energy.
Spin energies are laboratory demonstrable in as simple a device as a child's gyroscope.
They are observable in a greater magnitude in the motions of the planets.
> Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to the wise in
> light of the Two-Fold Flame...
The falsehoods that which seems to be. The truth it changes naught.
> 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
Yeah. The gibbering Freud's are on tour trying to fathom a seventh circuit brain using
third circuit beat simian paradigms. Are you getting any of this yet??
BT2000XL
*I ain't been talking to alot of folks. I got my Canon XL1 and G4...I am gonna be busy
and pop in only when I catch my email, and even then I do not have time to skim the
posts but briefly*
Rebekah O'Glass
>
> > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
My father always said: What you dislike in others is your "worst way to
be".
Let's see if I can communicate this: More times than not - we see in
others our worst way to be - but in reality, we are just LIKE the others
we hate.... unless we are totally aware of our worst way to be.
Example: I have a friend - she literally HATES her mother... Her
mother: A complaining, evil woman who blames the entire world and
everyone in it for her misery. The misery and drama in this woman's
life is comletely 100% self created.
This is my friend's WORST WAY TO BE - My friend is becoming JUST like
her mother - she is completely unaware of this... MOST of the time.
When my friend is being her 'worst way to be' - I have seen her stop,
pause, and do a 180.... she became aware she was acting/sounding like
her mother.
This isn't always an easy thing to become aware of - after all, who
wants to be what we hate the most?
Personally, I have many worst ways to be that I am aware of - I'm very
careful to NOT be that way. analytically, this is easy to do. But
reactivly, we are all our worst ways to be.
In my case my worst way to be takes the form of a disgusting, sweaty,
oozing, yellow ochre colored, troll that spits, drools, screams,
irrationally bitching and complaining about everything and nothing
anyone does is good enough. This entity is tightly monitored, gets
smacked around a lot - isn't let out for very long, if at all. This
entity lives where I think all of our worst ways to be live - right
behind our worst fears about ourselves.
Well - (in my best John Cleese voice) there it is then.
Baird Stafford
> While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
> perhaps a natural spiritual principle....
<snip>
If ethics are a natural human instinct, why do toddlers require so
firmly to be taught them? From both memory and observation, I suggest
that the concept of "Mine!" develops shortly after "No!" and long before
either "Yours" or "Ours."
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Visit me at <http://bairdstafford.com>
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> With this in mind I ask if a set of ethical guidelines is viewed as
> necessary, or if the consensus is that individual values are enough?
<snip>
My understanding of Wiccan theology suggests that the latter may well be
the answer the religion would offer if it spoke with a single voice.
Pretty much everything seems to be left up to the individual in Wicca,
which actually makes sense (to me) in a religion one of whose basic
myths is that of survival under centuries of persecution.
In this case it seems to me to make sense in another way, as well. Most
Wiccan healing with which I'm familiar is done in a ritual setting,
meaning that the religion and its strictures are definitely invoked.
Healers working for money or from any motive other than altruism would
appear therefore to have to be *very* careful not to invoke the Rule of
Three against themselves, more so (I should think) than those who are
moved by simple compassion. (This observation takes into account the
tremendous bearing that Intent has upon the effect of Magic, in the
opinions of most Wiccans of my aquaintance.)
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Yet, I have had communication with a lot of people who think that by
> "accepting the consequences" of their actions after doing this type of
> Magick, is "accepting responsiblity." However, I would like to point out
> that REAL responsiblity is demonstrated by NOT practicing that type of
> Magick at all!!
Ummm.... As with most blanket statements, this one seems to me
seriously to be flawed. I can think of several situations, such as the
protection of one's self, home, family or community, in which the use of
"negative" Magics might well be called for, and that refraining from
using same might well be even more irresponsible than doing so.
Diana Price
three-fold, then what more ethics do you need?
Diana
(Yes, I realize some here don't believe that)
tegan
other people are the things we hate in ourselves. My mom used to say that
to me when I was a kid. She also said hate is an acid that eats it's
container....who hurts more...the person being hated, or the one doing the
hating? She was a pretty wise lady.
Me...I love everyone! hehe :)
Love and Blessings,
Tegan :)
--
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
forever." - Gandhi
Rebekah O'Glass <artg...@flash.net> wrote in article
<38E638FF...@flash.net>...
Rebekah O'Glass
> to me when I was a kid. She also said hate is an acid that eats it's
> container....who hurts more...the person being hated, or the one doing the
>
>
> Love and Blessings,
>
> Tegan :)
> --
LOVE that! Filing in my 'wonderful sayings to incorporate into my art'
file.. :)
I try to love everyone too, Teg.... some are harder to love than
others...
Two Crows
BirdTribe <bird...@birdtribe.com> wrote in message
news:38E6343F...@birdtribe.com...
>
>
> Two Crows wrote:
> >
> > Well you speak to me at last, I missed you. Ok, ok here's a well thought
out
> > counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational
Energetics).
> > 1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is the onus
of
> > the listener.
>
> Phonon transmission and interpretation according to symbolic and
hieroglyphic database.
> Flawed if database is inapplicable.
Trying to read the magnetic tapes from the first Viking mission was
impossible...because the machine that read them was obsolete and out of
manufacture. NASA found four heads in a dusty warehouse and spent millions
to reconstruct a machine around them. It took less than 25 years to let the
tapes come into a situation to be nearly useless. The application of that
data had been thought of little value, until it was decided to research
landing sites for subsequent missions to mars.
>
> > 2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which are
sincerely
> > benevolent in intention.
>
> Human laws are a fiction. There were codified to template city societies
from getting in
> conflict and letting natural ethics take over.
Bench test: Joke Bank Robbery. Materials: Toy gun; ski mask; private
vehicle. Operation: Drive to bank; park in front of door on curb; put on
mask; approach Bank Teller; pull out toy gun; say "Give me all yer money.";
regardless of outcome pull off mask and say "Just kidding." Most probable
result: Detention within one hour; judgment against tester; variable prison
sentence. While in prison the subjective nature of this fiction is likely to
make your ass hurt...and give you plenty of time to rethink your position on
a great many things. You might even find god in prison...he seems to
breaking quite a few fictitious laws himself lately if all the accounts of
finding him while incarcerated are to be believed...
>
> > 3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is useful in
> > discerning reality.
>
> Phonon transmission is useful for the telemetrizing of states of being of
the receiver.
> Further paths of transmission elucidate the nature of the receiver and
their
> "trustworthiness" as you well know. <see "whelps">
Tustworthiness is a term relative to the speaker. Even the snake may be
trusted for what it is.
>
> > 3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of "Black
Popery"
> > generally negates their efficacy.
>
>
> Use of historical trends elucidates the nattier of paths being forged.
Historically the folks crying Devil were about the business of the
demonization of intended targets, enemies, and opponents of their
systematized, and often dogmatic, beliefs.
>
> > 4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two
thousand
> > years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing way
back in
> > the day.
>
> Last weeks TV Guide is out of date. It was written for transmissions that
took place
> last week.
Does your initiation into Wicca fit this category? In the perception that we
are what we do, are you still a Wiccan?
>
> > 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion,
spirituality,
> > and spin energy.
>
> Spin energies are laboratory demonstrable in as simple a device as a
child's gyroscope.
> They are observable in a greater magnitude in the motions of the planets.
...and in all political motivations. Spin doctors such as yourself make
millions writing for presidents. You put in for that job yet?
>
> > Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to the wise in
> > light of the Two-Fold Flame...
>
> The falsehoods that which seems to be. The truth it changes naught.
One hallmark, IMNSHO, of literalism and fundimentalism, is the belief that
truth is singular. Facts can be singular, but there correlates are wholey
subjective. This falacy is often repressented in statements like, "To me,
the Jehovah of the Old Testament is merely a god to his followers. He is
not part of any pantheon that I follow. Yet, in Jewish studies, he is The
God. Here lies the crux of the issue. He cannot be both." Of course he can
be both, truth is not singular or wholey independant of the perception of
the observer, but facts are.
>
> > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
>
> Yeah. The gibbering Freud's are on tour trying to fathom a seventh circuit
brain using
> third circuit beat simian paradigms. Are you getting any of this yet??
Sticks and stones bounce off me bones, for me head is thicker than water...
BB
TC
ps- You seem to be making quite a few typos of late, simple mistakes such as
the substitution of "you" for "your." Is this a laboratory demonstrable
indication, by virtue of a marked change in your psycholinguistic modules,
of being emotionally inextricable from your arguments?
>
> BT2000XL
> *I ain't been talking to alot of folks. I got my Canon XL1 and G4...I am
gonna be busy
> and pop in only when I catch my email, and even then I do not have time to
skim the
> posts but briefly*
<snip>
DocZhivago
plain English that anyone can understand. Don't pretend you don't
understand, I know you're more inteligent than that. I think the problem
here is that you just might agree a bit with Bird Tribe. God (Goddess)
forbid you might admit that to any degree. Bird Tribe is stating that if we
truely wish to be ethical, moral beings we must take responsibility for
ourselves. Agree or disagree, but don't pretend you don't understand.
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7UmF4.3942$TM.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> If you're going to debate, have a fucking POINT, idiot.
>
>
> BirdTribe <bird...@birdtribe.com> wrote in message
> news:38E5EC37...@birdtribe.com...
> >
> >
> > Two Crows wrote:
> > > condescending elitism,
> >
> >
> > Heh.. That is funny considering the diatribes you raise to gain
> higher _religious_
> > ground, and ethically place yourself above others here because of
> you condescendingly
> > elitist moral stance which differs not much in basis of argument
> from the inquisition.
> > The law of ethics in an earth religion are those of nature, not of
> the city Sun/Temple
> > cults and Black Popes and False Emperors and their laws and ethics
> meant to crush the
> > vitality of the natural human spirit by painting it's aspirations
> as dark, by subjecting
> > natural leaders who do not lead others down the path they have
> predetermined as the only
> > correct one as evil and attempting to create elitist secret
> societies.. Thing is
> > pal...it ain't about ethics no more. Pisces is past and Aquarius is
> here. It will be
> > about energy. If an ism holds back evolving dynamics it will be
> crushed in the grip of
> > the emerging individualism. Law is based on ethics. Law is found in
> the fiction section
DocZhivago
Rebekah O'Glass <artg...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:38E638FF...@flash.net...
> BirdTribe wrote:
> >
> > > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you
hate
> > > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
>
>
Two Crows
vs. Nurture. It seems to me that we have very few "Lord of the Flies" type
experiments to take observations from. It is true that humans in the earlier
developmental stages exhibit violence in rather territorial expressions of
ownership. The "mine" cases are documented, and resonate within anyone who
has raised children, or observed them at length. What I suggest is that even
the expressions of "mine," and "no" are a combination of nature vs. the
nurture of environment, and that left to their own devices might well evolve
into "yours," and "ours" expressions. Allegorically speaking this is also
seen in the evolution of the race as a whole. Native Americans, while
certainly territorial, did not commonly hold a concept of ownership, but
instead expressed the notion that we belong to the earth.
The very principle we are discussing here is described at length in relation
to nascent man in Locke's "Second Treatise on Government." Locke describes
the natural evolution of government as having stemmed from the principle of
situational ownership. That is "I'm using it," or "I made it so you can't
have it" situations. This principle of situational ownership based on the
virtue of an individual or group mixing its labor with various material
commodities or land is at the heart of what I call natural ethics. It
resonates in every human being that it is undesirable to take a toy away
from a child while he is playing with it, when he is finished another child
is likely able to pick up that same toy without fear of reprisal. This is
the natural ethic then, that what one is using, or has mixed his labor with
should be at his disposal without the overt interference of those who wish
to usurp his will and take it for their use, and then only by the labor of
violence. It is then in my estimation that ethics are natural to man, and
that overt violence is often a learned behavior. I say this because of the
fact that it has been demonstrated with authority that within most mammals
there is a biological aversion to killing members of the same species. There
are of course natural conflicts over territory, mating rights, and food, but
in most all cases it is rare that killing is the intended result. This very
principle is reversed in military "muscle memory" training that subdues the
human biological aversion to killing members of our species, and it is also
the fuel of many contemporary debates about social violence. Of particular
note is the alleged propensity of violence in the media having a direct
effect on the development of adolescents.
Considering our toddler again let me present a different take on this
question of natural ethics. The child that presents the "mine" behavior is
in effect teaching his peers the consequences of violating the natural
ethic. The smacks he dispenses to his fellows intent on taking the object of
his use is negative reinforcement of the natural ethic of situational
ownership. It is likely that he is exhibiting the principles of the natural
evolution of the human ethic, and it is the interference of misguided
parents that inhibit its natural development by scolding the child for
expressing his natural ethics. It could be seen that allowing this
expression to take its course does in fact reinforce the natural ethic in
the generation in question, and that the social ills that we currently face
may well be as a result of fearing violent expressions of the natural ethic.
In essence perhaps we make a society that is deeply confused over what is
natural because we insist on viewing all conflict as negative and
unmannered...
BB
TC
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1e8eu8d.sp1...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
>
> > While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
> > perhaps a natural spiritual principle....
>
> <snip>
>
> If ethics are a natural human instinct, why do toddlers require so
> firmly to be taught them? From both memory and observation, I suggest
> that the concept of "Mine!" develops shortly after "No!" and long before
> either "Yours" or "Ours."
>
Two Crows
see as the natural ethics in man and beast alike. The trouble with this is
of course the routine situation of dealing with those that do not express
the natural ethics of the community. They must be dealt with in some
fashion, or their unethical behaviors threaten the individuals of the
community. I see information as the most useful in this dilemma. If everyone
in the community knows that the so-and-so is a charlatan dealing worthless
services to garner wealth, he is likely to find himself without customers,
and may in some cases come to learn a useful and ethical trade in order to
survive...
BB
TC
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1e8etor.1br...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > With this in mind I ask if a set of ethical guidelines is viewed as
> > necessary, or if the consensus is that individual values are enough?
>
> <snip>
>
> My understanding of Wiccan theology suggests that the latter may well be
> the answer the religion would offer if it spoke with a single voice.
> Pretty much everything seems to be left up to the individual in Wicca,
> which actually makes sense (to me) in a religion one of whose basic
> myths is that of survival under centuries of persecution.
>
> In this case it seems to me to make sense in another way, as well. Most
> Wiccan healing with which I'm familiar is done in a ritual setting,
> meaning that the religion and its strictures are definitely invoked.
> Healers working for money or from any motive other than altruism would
> appear therefore to have to be *very* careful not to invoke the Rule of
> Three against themselves, more so (I should think) than those who are
> moved by simple compassion. (This observation takes into account the
> tremendous bearing that Intent has upon the effect of Magic, in the
> opinions of most Wiccans of my aquaintance.)
>
Two Crows
is clouded by obvious emotionalism, and personal aversion to his opponents
views. In essence the very same behavior that you accuse her of...
BB
TC
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gouF4.81$5e.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
DocZhivago
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:3TpF4.761$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> Well you speak to me at last, I missed you. Ok, ok here's a well thought
out
> counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational
Energetics).
> 1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is the onus
of
> the listener.
A truism.... you're point?
> 2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which are
sincerely
> benevolent in intention.
I agree that most human laws are founded due to human
concerns. As to benevolent, I don't think so. Human laws merely establish
the rules by which the status quo remains unchanged. Occasionally
revolutions or wars change the status quo. At which time the laws also
change... and a new master/client relationship is cemented into place....
til the next revolution.
> 3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is useful in
> discerning reality.
Heinous lies as a useful tool in the
discovery of truth? Possibly, but not a very efficient way to go about
discovering the truth. How much time do we have to discover the Truth? I
conjecture our time is limited. If our time is limited, and we utilize an
inefficient method of learning "truth", then the result will be our failure
to ever learn the truth.
> 3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of "Black Popery"
> generally negates their efficacy.
Say what?
> 4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two thousand
> years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing way back
in
> the day.
Jesus who?
> 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion,
spirituality,
> and spin energy. Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to the wise
in
> light of the Two-Fold Flame...
"It's all true, it's all false..." Is that a quote
from Charlie Manson... when he was on Acid? Heavy, man, heavy... but what
does that mean? How do I apply that profound wisdom to everyday decision
making? What if it's getting cold and dark and I need to decide whether to
take the short difficult road or the long easy road? This is were the
Scientist and the Preacher Man can't agree. The Scientist wants answers,
the Preacher Man just wants to feel good about himself. I'll trade all the
good feelings in the world for a good road map that tells me how to get to
where I want to go.
> 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
I do get it.... you're lost! And I don't know whether or not you feel
good about yourself either. I'll worry about whether or not I've passed the
ink blot test AFTER I've achieved some of my personal goals in life.
None-the-less, you've started a good, thought engaging thread....
which around ARW is tantamount to stepping out into the line of fire.... so
my compliments there for your willingness to stick your neck out.
>
> BB
> TC
DocZhivago
<snip>
A person
> who is aware of this Law, and yet still practices hex or hurtful Magick
> against another is like a person who is cutting off their arm, to spite
> themself. It makes no sense!! Yet, I have had communication with a lot of
> people who think that by "accepting the consequences" of their actions
after
> doing this type of Magick, is "accepting responsiblity." However, I would
> like to point out that REAL responsiblity is demonstrated by NOT
practicing
> that type of Magick at all!!
I would assume then, that the ultimate form of "real" responsibility
would be to have an electronic chip implanted in your brain. Then, not only
would you not be able to practice magic, but you would never have to take
responsiblility for practicing anything. You could hand your free will over
to "Big Brother" or "Big Sister" and they would ensure that you never
violate any "three fold law", nor any other law.
The alternative is to take full responsibility for everything you do.
To look within yourself and become one with God/Goddess/or whatever else
spirit you might believe animates all reality. Assume there is a heirarchy
in the universe, and you fit into it somewhere, and act with decisiveness
and/or humbleness as the situation demands. Of course, all this means (more
often than not) work, dedication, consciousness, effort, occasional injury,
courage, etc. I therefore can understand why so many prefer a brain/chip
implant; or a cult; or a guru; or a "rede"; or some other "faith". I
understand... but I also despise such...
Two Crows
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:z_uF4.111$5e.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> My comments to your comments to Birdtribe..... (see below)
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:3TpF4.761$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> > Well you speak to me at last, I missed you. Ok, ok here's a well thought
> out
> > counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational
> Energetics).
> > 1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is the onus
> of
> > the listener.
>
> A truism.... you're point?
Exactly.
>
> > 2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which are
> sincerely
> > benevolent in intention.
>
> I agree that most human laws are founded due to human
> concerns. As to benevolent, I don't think so. Human laws merely
establish
> the rules by which the status quo remains unchanged. Occasionally
> revolutions or wars change the status quo. At which time the laws also
> change... and a new master/client relationship is cemented into place....
> til the next revolution.
Lately most human laws only put on a veneer of paternalism in order to hide
the actual motivation, money or control. So in essence I agree with you on
this. My point was that most laws have a foundation in benevolence to
preserve the domestic tranquility, which is of course most often the status
quo. As to the rest, why would it be necessary to state in stone that murder
is wrong? For the same reasons that there are labels warning about using the
hair dryer in the shower...
>
> > 3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is useful in
> > discerning reality.
>
> Heinous lies as a useful tool in the
> discovery of truth? Possibly, but not a very efficient way to go about
> discovering the truth. How much time do we have to discover the Truth? I
> conjecture our time is limited. If our time is limited, and we utilize an
> inefficient method of learning "truth", then the result will be our
failure
> to ever learn the truth.
Considering the vastness of "truth," which you beaker types confuse often
with empirical facts, our failure is assured. This leads me to believe that
our existence after death is not dependant on understanding at all. To be
fearful that our time is limited is itself limiting, and leads on to acts of
lifelessness and desperation. If in fact the time is limited, and this one
incarnation is all that we get, the urge to live and experience everything
is still very useful, as it leaves us with a warm feeling on our death
beds...
>
> > 3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of "Black
Popery"
> > generally negates their efficacy.
>
> Say what?
You are. No you are...get the point?
>
> > 4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two
thousand
> > years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing way
back
> in
> > the day.
>
> Jesus who?
Not very interested in comparative religion, eh?
>
> > 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion,
> spirituality,
> > and spin energy. Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to the
wise
> in
> > light of the Two-Fold Flame...
>
> "It's all true, it's all false..." Is that a quote
> from Charlie Manson... when he was on Acid? Heavy, man, heavy... but
what
> does that mean? How do I apply that profound wisdom to everyday decision
> making? What if it's getting cold and dark and I need to decide whether
to
> take the short difficult road or the long easy road? This is were the
> Scientist and the Preacher Man can't agree. The Scientist wants answers,
> the Preacher Man just wants to feel good about himself. I'll trade all
the
> good feelings in the world for a good road map that tells me how to get to
> where I want to go.
I simply adore your demonizing labels, and how they are useful to you in
valuation of my person. Very telling actually of the weaknesses of your
empirical analysis. You in the habit of calling a spade a spade? If so you
will never come to understand the spade, where it came from, and how it
interacts with and impacts its environment...
It has been said that when science finally reaches the pinnacle of its
efforts the theologians will be there waiting for them...
>
> > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
>
> I do get it.... you're lost! And I don't know whether or not you
feel
> good about yourself either. I'll worry about whether or not I've passed
the
> ink blot test AFTER I've achieved some of my personal goals in life.
Ink blot tests? YoU hAd anY oF thOse yoUrseLF?
>
> None-the-less, you've started a good, thought engaging thread....
> which around ARW is tantamount to stepping out into the line of fire....
so
> my compliments there for your willingness to stick your neck out.
Thank you, and the same sentiment to you as well...
BB
TC
<snip>
BirdTribe
Rebekah O'Glass wrote:
>
> BirdTribe wrote:
> >
> > > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
Two Crows wrote that..
I am quite aware of my behaviour;)
Yer Pal
BirdTribe
--
BirdTribe
Two Crows wrote:
> >
> > > 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion,
> spirituality,
> > > and spin energy.
> >
> > Spin energies are laboratory demonstrable in as simple a device as a
> child's gyroscope.
> > They are observable in a greater magnitude in the motions of the planets.
>
> ...and in all political motivations. Spin doctors such as yourself make
> millions writing for presidents. You put in for that job yet?
>
And therein lies the basis of your rebuttals and the extent when distilled to its
corrupted essence, of your jot and tittering debate stance when posting to me. I do not
do politics. I do not do law. I live by what I was taught and have learned from all my
experiences and teachers. Keep trying to paint a Snidely Whiplash moustache on me and I
will keep moving like you are in the wrong cartoon..haha!
BT2000XL
*In trial by fire or elemental water your deck would stack up short*
Rebekah O'Glass
>
> Rebekah O'Glass wrote:
> >
> > BirdTribe wrote:
> > >
> > > > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > > > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
>
> Two Crows wrote that..
>
> I am quite aware of my behaviour;)
soooooo... does this mean you hate your behavior?
vvvvvvv------- Rebecca (loves being ignored :) heheeheh)
Baird Stafford
> I got it off of the net, therefore, it's public domain. Knock yerself (and
> yer circle) out. ;-)
<snip>
I am not a copyright (nor any other kind) of lawyer, but I do know that
items off the 'Net are NOT in the public domain unless the document
specifically states as much. They are most especially not in the public
domain if they carry a copyright notice.
I believe that there have been two or three recent court decisions in
various countries upholding the notion that copyright laws apply also to
material from the 'Net and specifically from web pages.
Chovhani
of perpetual conflict or cynicism. Sure, we have our fringe, everyone does,
but even among the fringe I find more fluff and nonsense than harm. We don't
have the equivalent of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or if we do, they
only influence a few people, not the masses. I don't advocate letting your
guard down, but I always feel more able to kick back among Pagans. Maybe I'm
just used to them:)
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:vYdF4.726$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
> perhaps a natural spiritual principle, I must have some concern over
ethical
> issues that face Paganism today, from my own perspective. I also agree
that
> as a whole Paganism is replete with great examples of natural ethics in
> practice other than theory. It seems to me that Paganism also has its
fringe
> charlatanry and fundamentalism as well. I have personally experienced, and
> observed, several instances that give me pause. I have witnessed hexings,
> ill-will, condescending elitism, and suspected even open criminality in
some
> rare cases. This does not deter me from being a Pagan, but it does limit
my
> willingness to let down all the walls when in close contact with other
> Pagans I am not intimately familiar with (this being not endemic to any
> religious or secular portion of humanity alone, I keep up a careful guard
> around all human beings). It also causes me to refrain from putting myself
> in the best position to become intimately familiar with other human
beings.
> I would like to live differently. Perhaps my desire to contribute to
making
> things better than they currently are in some cases leads me down the
garden
> path...What do you think?
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to the
> > conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those who
do
> > have a code break it daily! I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans
> than
> > non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased, but
> that's
> > my perception. Perhaps our desire to grow and gain wisdom creates out
> > natural ethical code instinctively. Civilization and religions did not
> shape
> > human ethics, it was the other way around. What I'm saying is, we all
know
> > how to behave anyway, writing it down is no guarantee we'll behave any
> > better.
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> <snip>
>
>
>
Chovhani
maybe in my dreams, but in reality I think we have a way to go before we as
a species are ready for such freedom:)
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Fedor <them...@xxdvpn.xorg> wrote in message
news:38e61360...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 03:23:07 GMT, "Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net>
wrote:
> >While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
> >perhaps a natural spiritual principle, I must have some concern over
ethical
> >issues that face Paganism today, from my own perspective. I also agree
that
> >as a whole Paganism is replete with great examples of natural ethics in
> >practice other than theory. It seems to me that Paganism also has its
fringe
> >charlatanry and fundamentalism as well.
>
> >Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> >news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> >> Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to the
> >> conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those who
do
> >> have a code break it daily! I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans
> >than
> >> non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased, but
> >that's
> >> my perception.
>
> We always know best what we experience ourselves. This is axiomatic to
> writers, who usually stick to their own experiences in creating their best
> work.
>
> Having said that, I respectfully point out that ethics, whilst often
stated in
> terms of religion, transcends other human considerations and comes down to
a
> single point... in my not so humble opinion.
>
> That single point is the relative maturity of the society that gives
residence
> to and constrains the ethical person. Ethical behavior is only as strong
as
> its consequences to the individual. Ostracism, intimidation, physical
injury,
> financial ruin and death are the most frequent consequences in many (most,
the
> cynic in me assert) modern societies, and only those who succeed in
> emotionally and/or physically isolating themselves have the true freedom
to
> express themselves ethically.
>
> My standard of maturity in a society, perhaps utopian, is that people act
> ethically at all times, expect ethical behavior from others, and maintain
this
> level of societal ethics by a swift, coordinated and balanced response to
> unethical behavior. I think this brands me as a libertarian, on top of
> utopian, but there it is.
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:EYpF4.762$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> Please help me to understand a fine point within your thoughtful reply.
Are
> you saying that the use of outside ethical pressures actually inhibits the
> expression of natural human ethics? Are you not in fact stating that
> codified ethics is unethical? I need to understand before I proceed with
my
> reply to your assertions...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Fedor <them...@xxdvpn.xorg> wrote in message
> news:38e61360...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> <sniptra>
Chovhani
ethics live by natural ethics. Trust me, I've raised 6 kids this way and
they have turned out fine.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1e8eu8d.sp1...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
>
> > While I sincerely agree with ethics being a natural human instinct, or
> > perhaps a natural spiritual principle....
>
> <snip>
>
> If ethics are a natural human instinct, why do toddlers require so
> firmly to be taught them? From both memory and observation, I suggest
> that the concept of "Mine!" develops shortly after "No!" and long before
> either "Yours" or "Ours."
>
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:YDuF4.35$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Chovhani
of situations where rules are broken simply because they exist. We were
talking about children elsewhere in this thread. Let me cite you a
simplistic example relating to children. I have a friend who is very strict
about her kids not eating snacks just before mealtimes. This is a sensible
thing, in many ways, but her kids are forever sneaking off with cookies etc
an hour before supper, getting caught, and facing whatever scolding she
hands out, because they broke the rules. In my house the kids are allowed to
eat anything whenever they want to, but they have been educated to
understand their bodies, nutrition, family finances, you name it. They
rarely snack before mealtimes because they have figured out for themselves
why it's not a good idea.
Remember prohibition?
--
Melanie. Llewellyn reject
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:BZmF4.3948$TM.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:8c3k65$5qq1s$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > Having been in discussions about Pagan ethics many times, I came to
> the
> > conclusion that it doesn't matter that we have no "code". All those
> who do
> > have a code break it daily!
>
> Right on! But, is a 'code' inflexible? Are there not times when it
> may be OK, even necessary for one to break one's code of conduct?
> Apparently so, depending on who one asks. ;] When does it become
> unjustifiable?
>
> I see far better ethics displayed by Pagans than
> > non-Pagans, frankly, and yes it would be easy to call me biased,
> but that's
> > my perception. Perhaps our desire to grow and gain wisdom creates
> out
> > natural ethical code instinctively.
>
> Perhaps an expanded awareness and more self responsibility. But I see
> a great deal of Pagans with no direction, little awareness, and a
> total lack of self control, and thus they have no code to speak of.
> Flakes come in all religious flavors, even non religious.
>
> Civilization and religions did not shape
> > human ethics, it was the other way around. What I'm saying is, we
> all know
> > how to behave anyway, writing it down is no guarantee we'll behave
> any
> > better.
>
> Again, right on. It hasn't worked for the xtians, or moslems,
> so......
> Of course, the newage way to do it is to verbally proseltyze a One
> True Wayism, then jot it down, get Lewellyn to publish and hey
> presto, wikkin manifesto! Yecch!
> >:)
> ~Sz.~
>
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> >
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> > news:1zbF4.659$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> > > Recent discussion here at the old cybercovenstead has brought
> me back
> > to
> > > the subject of ethics. We've talked about defining ethics in
> Wicca, and
> > > arrived at none, with no one agreeing on a common set of values.
> So I have
> > > some more food for thought.
> > > In the distribution of applied occult sciences it seems to me
> that
> > there
> > > are a number of disciplines that warrant some ethical guidelines
> or the
> > > possibility of harm is great. Healing and herbalism are
> disciplines that
> > can
> > > in fact bring harm to the practitioner and patient alike if not
> metered
> > with
> > > some ethical guidelines that dissuade from unskilled or unethical
> > practice.
> > > There are in fact a number of legal grounds on which the
> unskilled or
> > > unethical practitioner can be taken to litigation over harm
> alleged to
> > have
> > > been the result of their practice. The Shamanistic use of mind
> altering
> > > substances is another case where harm, and even death can result
> from
> > > unskilled or unethical practice. With this in mind I ask if a set
> of
> > ethical
> > > guidelines is viewed as necessary, or if the consensus is that
> individual
> > > values are enough?
> > > In the same light that ethics may be considered necessary to
> occult
> > > medicinal disciplines, it is my opinion that such stringent
> guidelines and
> > > rules that are in effect for modern western medicine have been
> unable to
> > > prevent unethical physicians, greedy pharmaceutical
> manufacturers, and
> > > insensitive medical institutions from bringing harm to needy
> patients. The
> > > very institution of the Hippocratic Oath has not dissuaded
> physicians from
> > > being more interested in money, insurance payments, and prestige
> over the
> > > well being of their patients. In fact the art of cures has
> nothing at all
> > to
> > > do with the holistic human being who is being treated more often
> than
> > naught
> > > as a set of symptoms rather than a person that is made up of a
> confluence
> > of
> > > aspects rather than mere flesh and bone. This very systemic
> problem with
> > > modern medicine is what has brought on the renaissance of
> holistic
> > healing,
> > > in my opinion. To what degree is it the patient's own
> responsibility to
> > > insure ethical treatment while ill or injured? Should there not
> be laws
> > that
> > > govern medicine, cure oriented sciences, and holistic healing? To
> what
> > > degree should this need be mitigated by the practitioners
> themselves? It
> > > seems apparent that the AMA, and other self-governed bodies, are
> largely
> > > incapable of caring out this task with integrity and not self
> interest.
> > >
> > >
> > > BB
> > > TC
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Chovhani
etc in modern society is because of demographics. Rather hard to exile
someone these days. But a form of shunning often works.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> I see the set of ethics you present here the most closely related to what
I
> see as the natural ethics in man and beast alike. The trouble with this is
> of course the routine situation of dealing with those that do not express
> the natural ethics of the community. They must be dealt with in some
> fashion, or their unethical behaviors threaten the individuals of the
> community. I see information as the most useful in this dilemma. If
everyone
> in the community knows that the so-and-so is a charlatan dealing worthless
> services to garner wealth, he is likely to find himself without customers,
> and may in some cases come to learn a useful and ethical trade in order to
> survive...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
> news:1e8etor.1br...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > With this in mind I ask if a set of ethical guidelines is viewed as
> > > necessary, or if the consensus is that individual values are enough?
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > My understanding of Wiccan theology suggests that the latter may well be
> > the answer the religion would offer if it spoke with a single voice.
> > Pretty much everything seems to be left up to the individual in Wicca,
> > which actually makes sense (to me) in a religion one of whose basic
> > myths is that of survival under centuries of persecution.
> >
> > In this case it seems to me to make sense in another way, as well. Most
> > Wiccan healing with which I'm familiar is done in a ritual setting,
> > meaning that the religion and its strictures are definitely invoked.
> > Healers working for money or from any motive other than altruism would
> > appear therefore to have to be *very* careful not to invoke the Rule of
> > Three against themselves, more so (I should think) than those who are
> > moved by simple compassion. (This observation takes into account the
> > tremendous bearing that Intent has upon the effect of Magic, in the
> > opinions of most Wiccans of my aquaintance.)
> >
Chovhani
noted elsewhere, in many people it has atrophied from lack of use due to too
many rules.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:NdvF4.114$5e.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
Fedor
>Please help me to understand a fine point within your thoughtful reply. Are
>you saying that the use of outside ethical pressures actually inhibits the
>expression of natural human ethics? Are you not in fact stating that
>codified ethics is unethical? I need to understand before I proceed with my
>reply to your assertions...
>
Sean of Clan Uisdin:
>A sound premise - however, I find it an interesting paradox that in our
>'modern' society, the tools used to enforce a code of ethics (Ostracism,
>intimidation, physical injury, financial ruin and death to quote you)
>seem to be falling under the umbrella of the 'unethical'. One could
>surmise that the more modern and mature our society gets, the less
>civilized it will be.
Damn, you guys are good. If we could meet in a pub, I'd be buying you both
drinks for the duration.
I cannot state on my own that "modern" ethics are in fact anti-ethical because
it becomes a self-defeating argument. Modern ethicists insist morality is in
the eye of the beholder, at least as far as I can tell.
Allow me to define my POV here, so we may avoid semantic inversions. Feel
free to dispute, I'm just showing where I stand.
Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary:
moral, n. 1. Of or related to conduct or character from the point of view of
right and wrong. 2. Of good character; right or proper in behavior.
ethics, n. 1. The study and philosophy of human conduct, with emphasis on the
determination of right and wrong.
TC, I am in fact stating that natural ethics is in direct conflict with
codified ethics, especially in the aspect that natural ethics is
self-enforcing, whereas the codification is a direct response to the weakness
of the ethical structure, an attempt to shore it up and prevent its collapse.
A good example of this is where ethics becomes a tool to control negative
behavior instead of promoting its positivity. Getting back to that utopian
libertarian in me, we define ethics, but we enforce it after the fact, not by
shoving it down every person's throat. Freedom must mean being free to make
mistakes and to disagree, even violently, with the structure of society. Our
attempts at prevention, in my experience, cause more harm than good, and on
top of that we have a justice system (though better than most) that cannot
enforce the ethics it is supposedly built on.
Sean, I don't see a paradox. I see a war. If you enjoy good science fiction,
I urge you to read _Adiamante_, by L.E. Modesitt, Jr. Paperback, TOR Books.
The author takes my stated position and makes it the primary force in the
plot... and writes much better and more entertainingly than I can. In my not
so humble opinion, _Adiamante_ is as powerful and as important as Ayn Rand's
_Atlas Shrugged_, and more balanced. The two books are very different, I'm
not suggesting that they be compared beyond what I state above.
Rhyanon
argument, which is NOT on ethics, but is "Why Blandy wandy is a
better wikkin wawwiow than evrybuddy in the hole wide wurld". Plain
and simple. He isn't in it for the debate. He's in it for his
worthless air pumped ego, and to spite Two Crows, and if he says
otherwise, he's his usual lying hypocrite self. I'm not reading his
words, I'm seeing what makes him say things the way he says
them........
In addition, I don't put weight to his arguments. He hasn't
displayed a whole fuckuvalotta responsibility for ethics himself.
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gouF4.81$5e.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> C'mon Rhyanon... Bird Tribe's comments are succint, lucid and
stated in
> plain English that anyone can understand. Don't pretend you don't
> understand, I know you're more inteligent than that. I think the
problem
> here is that you just might agree a bit with Bird Tribe. God
(Goddess)
> forbid you might admit that to any degree. Bird Tribe is stating
that if we
> truely wish to be ethical, moral beings we must take responsibility
for
> ourselves. Agree or disagree, but don't pretend you don't
understand.
>
> Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:7UmF4.3942$TM.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > If you're going to debate, have a fucking POINT, idiot.
> >
> >
> > > the emerging individualism. Law is based on ethics. Law is
found in
> > the fiction section
> > > of the library.
> > >
> > > BT2000XL
> > > *Taking no wooden ghawdz from crabalocker fishwives*
> > >
Rhyanon
you [paranoid byatch] ? You love them, you stupid little jeezis freak
ho? Yeah, right, hypocrite, you love everyone. suuuuurrrre..........
tegan <te...@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:01bf9c0b$62d283c0$7ac6f0d0@default...
> Good points, Rebekah. I've always felt that way. The things we
despise in
> other people are the things we hate in ourselves. My mom used to
say that
> to me when I was a kid. She also said hate is an acid that eats
it's
> container....who hurts more...the person being hated, or the one
doing the
> hating? She was a pretty wise lady.
>
> Me...I love everyone! hehe :)
>
> Love and Blessings,
>
> Tegan :)
> --
> "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
> forever." - Gandhi
>
> Rebekah O'Glass <artg...@flash.net> wrote in article
> <38E638FF...@flash.net>...
> > BirdTribe wrote:
> > >
> > > > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become
what you
> hate
> > > > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
> >
> >
Rhyanon
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:z_uF4.111$5e.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> My comments to your comments to Birdtribe..... (see below)
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:3TpF4.761$Rc1.2...@ratbert.tds.net...
> > Well you speak to me at last, I missed you. Ok, ok here's a well
thought
> out
> > counter to your allegations (a lesson if you will in Rotational
> Energetics).
> > 1) The discernment of all concepts carried by human language is
the onus
> of
> > the listener.
>
> A truism.... you're point?
>
> > 2) All human laws are founded in human concerns, many of which
are
> sincerely
> > benevolent in intention.
>
> I agree that most human laws are founded due to
human
> concerns. As to benevolent, I don't think so. Human laws merely
establish
> the rules by which the status quo remains unchanged. Occasionally
> revolutions or wars change the status quo. At which time the laws
also
> change... and a new master/client relationship is cemented into
place....
> til the next revolution.
>
> > 3) Even the most heinous lie is founded in the truth, and is
useful in
> > discerning reality.
>
> Heinous lies as a useful tool in the
> discovery of truth? Possibly, but not a very efficient way to go
about
> discovering the truth. How much time do we have to discover the
Truth? I
> conjecture our time is limited. If our time is limited, and we
utilize an
> inefficient method of learning "truth", then the result will be our
failure
> to ever learn the truth.
>
> > 3) Use of emotionally charged counters in the allegation of
"Black Popery"
> > generally negates their efficacy.
>
> Say what?
>
> > 4) Interesting that Jesus of Nazareth said the law was death two
thousand
> > years ago...um I believe some other wise men said the same thing
way back
> in
> > the day.
>
> Jesus who?
>
> > 5) Law is found in the fiction section right next to religion,
> spirituality,
> > and spin energy. Its all fake, and its all true...Useful only to
the wise
> in
> > light of the Two-Fold Flame...
>
> "It's all true, it's all false..." Is that
a quote
> from Charlie Manson... when he was on Acid? Heavy, man, heavy...
but what
> does that mean? How do I apply that profound wisdom to everyday
decision
> making? What if it's getting cold and dark and I need to decide
whether to
> take the short difficult road or the long easy road? This is were
the
> Scientist and the Preacher Man can't agree. The Scientist wants
answers,
> the Preacher Man just wants to feel good about himself. I'll trade
all the
> good feelings in the world for a good road map that tells me how to
get to
> where I want to go.
>
> > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what
you hate
> > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
>
> I do get it.... you're lost! And I don't know whether or not
you feel
> good about yourself either. I'll worry about whether or not I've
passed the
> ink blot test AFTER I've achieved some of my personal goals in
life.
>
> None-the-less, you've started a good, thought engaging
thread....
> which around ARW is tantamount to stepping out into the line of
fire.... so
> my compliments there for your willingness to stick your neck out.
> >
> > BB
> > TC
Rhyanon
and in fact, compassion and ethics are _learned_ behaviors. Empathy
is latent but brought to the surface by the tender caring touch of
the parents, usually Mother. If a baby is not picked up and held,
spoken to, cuddled, paid attention to and loved in its first months
of life, it will not develop compassion, conscience, empathy, or
regard for others and often a sociopathic behavior results. When a
child grows, one teaches the concepts of love, sharing, and
compassion by example. One teaches why it is good to share, why it is
good to respect the boundaries of Others. When they hand you
something, you say "Thank you" to teach them it's appropriate to
reply this way.
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1e8eu8d.sp1...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
>
> If ethics are a natural human instinct, why do toddlers require so
> firmly to be taught them? From both memory and observation, I
suggest
> that the concept of "Mine!" develops shortly after "No!" and long
before
> either "Yours" or "Ours."
>
Rhyanon
there is a "power - over / power struggle" going on. Whether it's a
school, prison, society, gov'mt. , military, or home rules. The
Powers set a system in place, and those within it can either rebel,
comply,or withdraw. Your friend's "law" is inflexible and
unappealing, so the children are secretly rebelling to this system.
If caught, I assume the system metes its punishments. This is a small
but good example that systems like this start from birth, in the
home, and go on throughout one's life. No matter where you go, you
are reacting to a similar system. It gets depressing if you think too
long on it.
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7in5$62qcs$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Rhyanon
gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on to
the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a sucker
somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
themselves...........
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
BirdTribe
Rebekah O'Glass wrote:
>
> BirdTribe wrote:
> >
> > Rebekah O'Glass wrote:
> > >
> > > BirdTribe wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 6) Perhaps the lesson is how offensive it can be to become what you hate
> > > > > most...(are you getting any of this yet?)
> >
> > Two Crows wrote that..
> >
> > I am quite aware of my behaviour;)
>
> soooooo... does this mean you hate your behavior?
Hell no.. My behaviour garners me friends and amusement and all kinds of cool high
paying work. Chicks like me, and the Universe likes me too LOL.. Why should I change? I
won't get any better.
Yer Pal
BNirdTribe
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:rHIF4.6189$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Chovhani
it's a topic I've been exploring elsewhere on-line recently. To quote a
friend on an e-mail list I'm on:
"Thinking before acting is a very hard habit to aquire."
The system we are all used to has taken this away from us, and to get back
to the original point, what I find of value in the (majority of) Pagan
paths, is the requirement to do so, no nanny hand of a list of rules to
abide by.
The trouble is you can't legislate ethics, you can only make laws, and these
are not synonymous. Education, yes and good parenting skills, are the best
solution.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:WLIF4.6199$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Chovhani
Age of Aquarius <G>.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Fedor <them...@xxdvpn.xorg> wrote in message
news:38e74ae6...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Sean MacUisdin
>
> On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:02:28 GMT, "Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
>
> >Please help me to understand a fine point within your thoughtful reply. Are
> >you saying that the use of outside ethical pressures actually inhibits the
> >expression of natural human ethics? Are you not in fact stating that
> >codified ethics is unethical? I need to understand before I proceed with my
> >reply to your assertions...
> >
>
> Sean of Clan Uisdin:
> >A sound premise - however, I find it an interesting paradox that in our
> >'modern' society, the tools used to enforce a code of ethics (Ostracism,
> >intimidation, physical injury, financial ruin and death to quote you)
> >seem to be falling under the umbrella of the 'unethical'. One could
> >surmise that the more modern and mature our society gets, the less
> >civilized it will be.
>
> Damn, you guys are good. If we could meet in a pub, I'd be buying you both
> drinks for the duration.
If you ever come to the left coast........
> I cannot state on my own that "modern" ethics are in fact anti-ethical because
> it becomes a self-defeating argument. Modern ethicists insist morality is in
> the eye of the beholder, at least as far as I can tell.
It's a societal decision though it is urged on by small and powerful
interest groups and not necessarily 'supported' by the society.
(snip for brevity)
> Sean, I don't see a paradox. I see a war. If you enjoy good science fiction,
> I urge you to read _Adiamante_, by L.E. Modesitt, Jr. Paperback, TOR Books.
> The author takes my stated position and makes it the primary force in the
> plot... and writes much better and more entertainingly than I can. In my not
> so humble opinion, _Adiamante_ is as powerful and as important as Ayn Rand's
> _Atlas Shrugged_, and more balanced. The two books are very different, I'm
> not suggesting that they be compared beyond what I state above.
Hmmm.... I'll have to give it a look. I'm not sure about the war thing
though, but that's by the by and purely semantics.
Good post.
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
against Canada)
Two Crows
Fedor <them...@xxdvpn.xorg> wrote in message
news:38e74ae6...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:02:28 GMT, "Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net>
wrote:
>
> >Please help me to understand a fine point within your thoughtful reply.
Are
> >you saying that the use of outside ethical pressures actually inhibits
the
> >expression of natural human ethics? Are you not in fact stating that
> >codified ethics is unethical? I need to understand before I proceed with
my
> >reply to your assertions...
> >
>
> Sean of Clan Uisdin:
> >A sound premise - however, I find it an interesting paradox that in our
> >'modern' society, the tools used to enforce a code of ethics (Ostracism,
> >intimidation, physical injury, financial ruin and death to quote you)
> >seem to be falling under the umbrella of the 'unethical'. One could
> >surmise that the more modern and mature our society gets, the less
> >civilized it will be.
>
> Damn, you guys are good. If we could meet in a pub, I'd be buying you
both
> drinks for the duration.
The favor would be returned. Both of you are good, and deserve a few stouts
just for showing up...
>
> I cannot state on my own that "modern" ethics are in fact anti-ethical
because
> it becomes a self-defeating argument. Modern ethicists insist morality is
in
> the eye of the beholder, at least as far as I can tell.
Damn he knows that move...hehehehe. You are getting closer to my position,
or we are coming together on the same point...
>
> Allow me to define my POV here, so we may avoid semantic inversions. Feel
> free to dispute, I'm just showing where I stand.
>
> Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary:
> moral, n. 1. Of or related to conduct or character from the point of view
of
> right and wrong. 2. Of good character; right or proper in behavior.
> ethics, n. 1. The study and philosophy of human conduct, with emphasis on
the
> determination of right and wrong.
>
> TC, I am in fact stating that natural ethics is in direct conflict with
> codified ethics, especially in the aspect that natural ethics is
> self-enforcing, whereas the codification is a direct response to the
weakness
> of the ethical structure, an attempt to shore it up and prevent its
collapse.
I agree completely. I feel that natural ethics are, like our immune systems
nowadays, not allowed to evolve and grow because the fear of minor conflict
and being unmannered is so great. The scare tactics of self serving power
brokers has caused people to misunderstand the natural place of violence,
anarchy, and anger. In their proper contexts none of them destroy society,
but instead strengthen it. Let me explain, as those words that I chose are
quite strong. Anarchy, or the absence of government, does not mean total
chaos. It simply means that individual self-governance is necessary to
survival...this is a natural law AFAIC. Anger is a natural and passing
emotion, and is necessarily a feature of most higher vertebrates. Violence
in nature is also a passing affectation, most often associated with the
fight or flight response, or the violation of situational ownership.
> A good example of this is where ethics becomes a tool to control negative
> behavior instead of promoting its positivity. Getting back to that
utopian
> libertarian in me, we define ethics, but we enforce it after the fact, not
by
> shoving it down every person's throat.
I am not a friend of overly paternalistic laws. Those laws that are intended
to rob the individual of his right to make mistakes ARE mistakes in my
opinion. Gun control laws are on my list of least favorites. On the other
hand, as a consumer I am very appreciative of laws that regulate the quality
of the goods, foods, drugs, and services I use. In fact I am for more
stringent laws in some of those areas, and to hell with the money it costs
the business criminal world to make it better. Most religious laws that are
actually viewed as carved in stone and completely inflexible are untenable
in my opinion. The threads about Wiccan tenets was actually in reference to
what defines the religion...interesting how that we all turned that one into
legalism (did I do that). There is an omen there I think...
> Freedom must mean being free to make
> mistakes and to disagree, even violently, with the structure of society.
I find it interesting that much of this country's (USA) founding principles
were drawn from Locke who said basically that it is the right of the people
to depose their government by force if it fails to do their will...and yet
to show agreement with his works today can be seen as a treasonous overture
by some politicians.
> Our
> attempts at prevention, in my experience, cause more harm than good, and
on
> top of that we have a justice system (though better than most) that cannot
> enforce the ethics it is supposedly built on.
Agreement on the weaknesses of the justice system. Disagreement however on
the ideals of prevention. It depends on what is being prevented. I would
hope that most pagans and wiccans would like to see something prevent the
destruction of our Mother Earth...and even though we loath laws as a general
principle it seems that laws designed to put the scientific and industrial
communities to work on better and cleaner ways to live would be in order. I
would also concede that good old capitalistic pressures could do the same
thing in the "First World" by causing them to change to the consumer's
tastes. This of course has little effect in the Third World...
BB
TC
>
> Sean, I don't see a paradox. I see a war. If you enjoy good science
fiction,
> I urge you to read _Adiamante_, by L.E. Modesitt, Jr. Paperback, TOR
Books.
> The author takes my stated position and makes it the primary force in the
> plot... and writes much better and more entertainingly than I can. In my
not
> so humble opinion, _Adiamante_ is as powerful and as important as Ayn
Rand's
> _Atlas Shrugged_, and more balanced. The two books are very different,
I'm
> not suggesting that they be compared beyond what I state above.
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:TqJF4.97$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Two Crows
Two Crows
harmony...
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7in5$62qcs$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Two Crows
Government was invented to serve a purpose, as was school, etc.. The
situation of rebellion is inevitable wherever their are people who have
taken the responsibility and duty of leadership (and in cases of biological
leadership). This is to be expected. A win/win paradigm makes allowances for
this rebellion and provides everyone with choices and makes the natural
consequences well known...
BB
TC
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:WLIF4.6199$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Two Crows
also seen it become the weapon of the elitists...
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7ivt$5ulc7$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Yes absolutely. The reason we have to have insitutions like courts,
prisons
> etc in modern society is because of demographics. Rather hard to exile
> someone these days. But a form of shunning often works.
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
updated
> and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> > I see the set of ethics you present here the most closely related to
what
> I
> > see as the natural ethics in man and beast alike. The trouble with this
is
> > of course the routine situation of dealing with those that do not
express
> > the natural ethics of the community. They must be dealt with in some
> > fashion, or their unethical behaviors threaten the individuals of the
> > community. I see information as the most useful in this dilemma. If
> everyone
> > in the community knows that the so-and-so is a charlatan dealing
worthless
> > services to garner wealth, he is likely to find himself without
customers,
> > and may in some cases come to learn a useful and ethical trade in order
to
> > survive...
> >
> > BB
> > TC
> >
> > Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
> > news:1e8etor.1br...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> > > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > With this in mind I ask if a set of ethical guidelines is viewed as
> > > > necessary, or if the consensus is that individual values are enough?
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > My understanding of Wiccan theology suggests that the latter may well
be
> > > the answer the religion would offer if it spoke with a single voice.
> > > Pretty much everything seems to be left up to the individual in Wicca,
> > > which actually makes sense (to me) in a religion one of whose basic
> > > myths is that of survival under centuries of persecution.
> > >
> > > In this case it seems to me to make sense in another way, as well.
Most
> > > Wiccan healing with which I'm familiar is done in a ritual setting,
> > > meaning that the religion and its strictures are definitely invoked.
> > > Healers working for money or from any motive other than altruism would
> > > appear therefore to have to be *very* careful not to invoke the Rule
of
> > > Three against themselves, more so (I should think) than those who are
> > > moved by simple compassion. (This observation takes into account the
> > > tremendous bearing that Intent has upon the effect of Magic, in the
> > > opinions of most Wiccans of my aquaintance.)
> > >
Two Crows
"ethical" thief can serve a valuable purpose in society...as there are all
kinds of things that can be made from finger bones...
BB
TC
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Unfortunately, having been helping my husband's family in the
> gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on to
> the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
> ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a sucker
> somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
> thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
> themselves...........
>
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Two Crows
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7m85$5imla$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> I still think it catches up with them in the end.
>
<snip>
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:5FJF4.117$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> While I agree with shunning as a workable solution to some situations I
have
> also seen it become the weapon of the elitists...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:8c7ivt$5ulc7$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > Yes absolutely. The reason we have to have insitutions like courts,
> prisons
> > etc in modern society is because of demographics. Rather hard to exile
> > someone these days. But a form of shunning often works.
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
> updated
> > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
> >
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> > news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> > > I see the set of ethics you present here the most closely related to
> what
> > I
> > > see as the natural ethics in man and beast alike. The trouble with
this
> is
> > > of course the routine situation of dealing with those that do not
> express
> > > the natural ethics of the community. They must be dealt with in some
> > > fashion, or their unethical behaviors threaten the individuals of the
> > > community. I see information as the most useful in this dilemma. If
> > everyone
> > > in the community knows that the so-and-so is a charlatan dealing
> worthless
> > > services to garner wealth, he is likely to find himself without
> customers,
> > > and may in some cases come to learn a useful and ethical trade in
order
> to
> > > survive...
> > >
> > > BB
> > > TC
> > >
Chovhani
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:ZNJF4.121$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> Karma?
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
Two Crows
maters so the bugs can't grow on 'em. They wax up the fruit, and
preservative the hell out of everything. No need to embalm me, I ate a
twinkie. They used to hand out "Dumb-Dumb" lollypops at the Doc's office,
now its a shot or a pill for every visit. Don't they understand the will of
the virus and micro-organism to live? They're supposed to be
scientists...why did they forget evolution on this one? About 13 million
people died of the common influenza bug during WW1. We got monster colds now
that the nuclear bomb can't kill...I think they're looking into allowing
Doc's to prescribe the bomb for any serious snivel now...Bet its them
eeevile Tri-Lateral guys setting up the common guy to bite it so they can
sit around for a million years counting all their money *stepping down from
soap box*
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7o4n$5ve36$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Two Crows
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7pf4$63068$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Ah yes, it was they I was thinking of shunning:)
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
updated
> and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
<snip>
Two Crows
coming...and run away before they run for election?
BB
TC
Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:8c7q6m$5tb3o$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Instant Karma <G>
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
updated
> and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
>
<nip>
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> Keridiaus L. Jones <kjon...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > I got it off of the net, therefore, it's public domain. Knock yerself (and
> > yer circle) out. ;-)
>
> <snip>
>
> I am not a copyright (nor any other kind) of lawyer, but I do know that
> items off the 'Net are NOT in the public domain unless the document
> specifically states as much. They are most especially not in the public
> domain if they carry a copyright notice.
Well in fact there has been interpretations, that web sites are
copyright even if it does not carry a copyright notice.
http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/copynet.htm discusses certain aspects of
copyright law.
HTH
>
> I believe that there have been two or three recent court decisions in
> various countries upholding the notion that copyright laws apply also to
> material from the 'Net and specifically from web pages.
Chovhani
anyone wanting real meat in Ontario, I'm only an e-mail away:) When our
animals (or children) are sick we use the old ways, and quite apart from it
keeping me in business with the organic customers, it bloody well works!
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:o0KF4.122$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Chovhani
interest in peace.
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:r2KF4.123$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> I love Carlin's idea about nobody showing up for the next war they
throw...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:8c7pf4$63068$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > Ah yes, it was they I was thinking of shunning:)
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
> updated
> > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
> <snip>
>
>
Chovhani
at home on this board.........
--
Melanie
http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:P3KF4.124$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> Why can't all the stupid people have really big heads so you can see them
> coming...and run away before they run for election?
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:8c7q6m$5tb3o$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > Instant Karma <G>
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
> updated
> > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
> >
> <nip>
>
>
Keridiaus L. Jones
sent it to me about a week after we waxed philosophical over coffee and
honey-sweetened green tea). He said he got it from a friend and, well, you
get the idea.
I, for one, would love to meet whoever wrote that and have a thoughtful
discussion on ethics in the Pagan community as seen from a Wiccan standpoint
(i.e. The application of the Reed to Pagans who are non-Wiccans). Love to
hear her/his opinions on that.
Brightest Blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker
<ba...@digital-marketplace.net> wrote in message
news:38E773D2...@digital-marketplace.net...
Keridiaus L. Jones
Brightest Blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker.
Keridiaus L. Jones
Brightest blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker
-------------------------------------------------------------------
KARMA, THE THREE FOLD LAW, & GRACE
by Paul G. Seymour
"As you sew, so shall ye reap". "What goes around, comes around".
"Whatever you send out returns three times". These are all sayings very
familiar to all of us, all of them examples of a supposedly Universal Law of
cause and effect, action and reaction. Of course many of the religious
systems try to furnish us with some sort of "escape clause" that will allow
man to either alleviate suffering fo past misdeeds, or to escape
responsibility totally. Let us take a little closer look at these three
ideas and ther inter-reationship.
It seems that, on one level, we do live in a mechanistic universe, one
pretty much ruled by cause-and-efect. This Newtonian universe seems to
react in a very mechanical fashion, i.e. every action "produces an equal and
opposite reaction". A good analogy for this is the example of one billiard
ball striking another. The energy from the striking billiard ball is
transfered to the one struck and is used to push against the first,
imparting motion in the same direction. This brings the second law into
play, i.e. an object in motion tends to stay in motion untill acted upon by
an outside force.
The principle of Karma basically says the same thing; i.e. any negative
or positive action or thought remains that way, until it expends its energy
by acting upon the originator. Of course this also makes implicit the idea
that thoughts or mental energy have a reality of their own, one that
interacts with the physical universe. If this idea is accepted, it then
implies the existence of at least one more "world" or order of the universe,
one with a non physical "reality", and one where the basic fundamental rules
of physics (as we know them) may not truly apply.
The magician can be described as one who "walks between" these two
worlds. "Walking between two worlds" implies that an individal is connected
with both and can move between them at will. The purpose of magic is to
manipulate one world for the benefit of the other, i.e. to manipulate the
unseen world for the express purpose of influencing events in the physical.
Unfortunately there does not seem to be a "free ride" anywhere in the
universe, and when an individual acquires the power to do this, they also
aquire a great deal of responsibility! By accepting the power to exert
"leverage" in the unseen world, an individual seems to also accept a
multiplied succeptibility to influences initiated in that world. This is
why negative workings are so dangerous! This may also be the reasoning
behind the "law of three fold return".
Now comes the hard part! If all of this cause and effect stuff is
absolute, how can any individual ever hope to "pay off" the debts for all of
the "stupid" things they have done not only in this lifetime, but in many
others? Must we "pay off" all past transgressions on a one for one basis?
Is there no escape clause in this "contract" we seem to have for living in
the universe?
This "escape clause" is called Grace by the Christians and by other
names in other systems, but it does exist in all. Basically, the idea is
this: "Once a lesson is completely learned and one grows beyond a need for
this lesson, it need not be repeated, even if the 'books' are not balanced".
This is the "Enlightenment" sought by the Buddhist that allows the
"breaking" of the wheel. This is also the core principle behind the idea of
"Divine" forgiveness, but that is a topic for another essay.
***************************************************************************
DocZhivago
<snip> (see below for comments)
>
> > Our
> > attempts at prevention, in my experience, cause more harm than good, and
> on
> > top of that we have a justice system (though better than most) that
cannot
> > enforce the ethics it is supposedly built on.
>
> Agreement on the weaknesses of the justice system. Disagreement however on
> the ideals of prevention. It depends on what is being prevented. I would
> hope that most pagans and wiccans would like to see something prevent the
> destruction of our Mother Earth...and even though we loath laws as a
general
> principle it seems that laws designed to put the scientific and industrial
> communities to work on better and cleaner ways to live would be in order.
I
> would also concede that good old capitalistic pressures could do the same
> thing in the "First World" by causing them to change to the consumer's
> tastes. This of course has little effect in the Third World...
>
>
one exception.. and that is your suggestion that we need more laws to force
corporations to "work on better and cleaner ways". There are now plenty of
laws on the books. Just take a look at all the lawyers out there making six
and seven figure annual incomes on all the lawsuits, not to mention all the
other various parasites that make it a wonder that anything can be
manufactured in America any more. The problem is that there are (and have
been) for at least 50 years (if not a hundred or more years) technologies
available that would provide us with all the clean energy we need. There
are medical technologies that already exist to cure every disease including
cancer. Their are ways of financing all of societies need without any form
of (direct) taxes what-so-ever. Tesla, Bearden, Searl, LaViolette, Keely,
Troy Reed, Viktor Schauberger, Don Smith to name just a few in alternative
energy science. Naesons, Rife, Bechamp, Burzynski in medicine. Roger
Ellettson in regard to our tax/banking/financial system.
You want new laws that would insure the "dinosaur" technology
corporations can stay in business... and continue to feed the spiritually
dead "new world order" crowd of parasites that own those corporations? I
want the abolishment of laws that impede the new technologies from sweeping
these inefficient, obsolete, wasteful dinosaur technologies into the trash
recycler. I'd argue that what's needed is a spiritual revolution, not new
laws. This is a good example of what I would call "spiritually dead or
dying" people, the "new world order" crowd of shareholders in these
multinational, obsolete technology companies. Sucking their artificial life
from the blood of other humans that are chained to this inefficient system.
I'd argue that nature should be allowed to take it's course. Remove laws,
allow new technology to replace old... and as for the parasitic shareholders
of these dinosaur corporations.... nature will deal with them as well... not
for me to judge... wouldn't surprise me if something unpleasant awaits the
spritually dead....
Keridiaus L. Jones
Bright Blessings,
Dooney Forestwalker
Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
news:38E82CB1...@net1plus.com...
> Dear D.F.:
> Thank you for posting this...
> Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
>
Rhyanon
wrote. I can email it to you, if you want it. It explains and breaks
down the details of the systems, the standards, yadayadayada.
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:iDJF4.113$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Rhyanon
designed to save his hide from being caught. Or maybe I'm reading too
much Feist / Eddings / Pratchett fictions............... ;]
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:dHJF4.118$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> Haha! There is no honor among thieves (I think I read that in the
DMG). The
> "ethical" thief can serve a valuable purpose in society...as there
are all
> kinds of things that can be made from finger bones...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Unfortunately, having been helping my husband's family in the
> > gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on
to
> > the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
> > ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a
sucker
> > somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
> > thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
> > themselves...........
> >
> >
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> > news:bJuF4.37$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
ronin
"Rhyanon" <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I have a fascinating paper on power over systems a friend of mine
> wrote. I can email it to you, if you want it. It explains and breaks
> down the details of the systems, the standards, yadayadayada.
sounds like YOU give it a lot of credence.
> Now, I have life to live and supper to get cooking, pork tenderloin
> and roasted tiny taties and asparagus, and so you'll pardon me if I
> consider this just about enough time wasted on you for now. Ta.......
ronin
"Rhyanon" <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Exactly. But there are self imposed tenets of a thief, primarily
> designed to save his hide from being caught. Or maybe I'm reading too
> much Feist / Eddings / Pratchett fictions............... ;]
ho hum. not even bothering to read these anymore. just finding where
you posted with no time to do so.
> Now, I have life to live and supper to get cooking, pork tenderloin
> and roasted tiny taties and asparagus, and so you'll pardon me if I
> consider this just about enough time wasted on you for now. Ta.......
JAC
Snakes
Thank you for posting this...
Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
Snakes
> That's survival instinct hardwired in. "Mine" is self - preserving,
> and in fact, compassion and ethics are _learned_ behaviors. Empathy
> is latent but brought to the surface by the tender caring touch of
> the parents, usually Mother. If a baby is not picked up and held,
> spoken to, cuddled, paid attention to and loved in its first months
> of life, it will not develop compassion, conscience, empathy, or
> regard for others and often a sociopathic behavior results.
And on top of that... The immune system can atrophy... Tactile
stimulation boosts the immune system. The connection between emotional
well-being, physical well-being and empathy is only beginning to be
sussed...
Blessed be, Lady Dionne
Snakes
Instant Dogma *G*
Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
The mixes are done, mastering at the end of the month and hopefully disks out
by mid-summer....
http://instantdog.easynews.com
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Parade/2166/
Chovhani wrote:
> Instant Karma <G>
>
> --
> Melanie
> http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website, updated
> and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
>
> Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
> news:ZNJF4.121$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
> > Karma?
> >
> > BB
> > TC
> >
> > Chovhani <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
Snakes
My friend Julian has a good quote: "To live outside the
law, one must be completely honest."
Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
Two Crows wrote:
> Haha! There is no honor among thieves (I think I read that in the DMG). The
> "ethical" thief can serve a valuable purpose in society...as there are all
> kinds of things that can be made from finger bones...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Unfortunately, having been helping my husband's family in the
> > gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on to
> > the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
> > ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a sucker
> > somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
> > thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
> > themselves...........
> >
> >
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
Two Crows
I sound like the scientist and you sound like the Zealot.
Tesla, Bearden, Searl, LaViolette, Keely, Troy Reed, Viktor Schauberger, Don
Smith? Ok, I get the picture and agree on the dino-obsolescence of the
dominant money/power society to run the human spirit into the grist mill for
its own selfish gain. No arguments there. As for the solution I was plain in
my suggestions...laws or consumer pressure. The Jihad is a little extreme
for a consumer pressure group, and I don't see the leaders of such a revolt
being too far behind the perpetrators...once they discover the money pile in
the Tri-Lateral HQ basement that is...
BB
TC
DocZhivago <doczh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:hqLF4.215$5e.2...@newshog.newsread.com...
<snip>
Two Crows
while I was a Mngr) I often talked about the differences of "power over" and
"power with" situational dynamics...The folks that had power over me did not
like such words...
BB
TC
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:SKPF4.9132$TM.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I have a fascinating paper on power over systems a friend of mine
> wrote. I can email it to you, if you want it. It explains and breaks
> down the details of the systems, the standards, yadayadayada.
<snip>
Two Crows
BB
TC
Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
news:38E833E...@net1plus.com...
> Merry Meet Melanie:
> Instant Dogma *G*
> Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
> The mixes are done, mastering at the end of the month and hopefully disks
out
> by mid-summer....
> http://instantdog.easynews.com
> http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Parade/2166/
> Chovhani wrote:
>
> > Instant Karma <G>
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
updated
> > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
> >
> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
Two Crows
I love it, sounds like something straight out of the Tao Te Ching...
BB
TC
Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
news:38E8343E...@net1plus.com...
> Dearest T.C.:
> My friend Julian has a good quote: "To live
outside the
> law, one must be completely honest."
> Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
>
> Two Crows wrote:
>
> > Haha! There is no honor among thieves (I think I read that in the DMG).
The
> > "ethical" thief can serve a valuable purpose in society...as there are
all
> > kinds of things that can be made from finger bones...
> >
> > BB
> > TC
> >
> > Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > Unfortunately, having been helping my husband's family in the
> > > gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on to
> > > the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
> > > ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a sucker
> > > somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
> > > thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
> > > themselves...........
> > >
> > >
> > > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
Maeve Morgan-Crow
<rhy...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Or maybe I'm reading too
>much Feist / Eddings / Pratchett fictions............... ;]
Jimmy the Hand, Silk, and Talen... Ah, such good and dear old friends.
Pratchett I haven't gotten to though.
Maeve
"Religion is for those who fear going to hell. Spirituality is for those who've
been there."-Unknown
ARW Book Report:
http://members.aol.com/arwbookreport
Rhyanon
ronin <shiko...@kitsune.tokyo.net> wrote in message
news:38f8983e...@news.earthlink.net...
> ten. ah.
>
> "Rhyanon" <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a fascinating paper on power over systems a friend of mine
> > wrote. I can email it to you, if you want it. It explains and
breaks
> > down the details of the systems, the standards, yadayadayada.
>
> sounds like YOU give it a lot of credence.
>
Rhyanon
Maeve Morgan-Crow <morga...@aol.comantispam> wrote in message
news:20000403024537...@nso-cv.aol.com...
Fedor
following is not exactly original but I can't remember where I
read/heard it.
It can be argued (successfully, imo) that ethics is an expression of
survival, but raised to the level of the group (social ethics) and the
species (the individual sacrifice for the good of many). The reason I
strongly agree with this concept is that it provides an excellent
litmus test: do the codified ethics tend to promote the survival of the
group, or do they tend to injure the group's long-term prospects?
Objectively, certain branches of paganism, as with certain branches of
other religions (notably the militaristic ones), fail this test.
I would love to make a list, but a) I'm tired, b) I don't have time to
present my justifications (going to a meeting in a couple of minutes,
and c) I really would like to see some others come up with examples.
Remember, this is not an excuse to go <fill-in-the-blank> bashing. If
you can be objective enough, I'm betting you'll find examples of
failure in your own belief system. Nor is this an all-or-nothing sort
of test.
Bonus points to the person who can name (according to my criteria of
survival) the single, biggest flaw in paganism in general... hint, it's
the same flaw in Judaism.
In article <rHIF4.6189$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Rhyanon" <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> That's survival instinct hardwired in. "Mine" is self - preserving,
> and in fact, compassion and ethics are _learned_ behaviors. Empathy
> is latent but brought to the surface by the tender caring touch of
> the parents, usually Mother. If a baby is not picked up and held,
> spoken to, cuddled, paid attention to and loved in its first months
> of life, it will not develop compassion, conscience, empathy, or
> regard for others and often a sociopathic behavior results. When a
> child grows, one teaches the concepts of love, sharing, and
> compassion by example. One teaches why it is good to share, why it is
> good to respect the boundaries of Others. When they hand you
> something, you say "Thank you" to teach them it's appropriate to
> reply this way.
>
> Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
> news:1e8eu8d.sp1...@tsmlb1-107.gate.net...
> >
> > If ethics are a natural human instinct, why do toddlers require so
> > firmly to be taught them? From both memory and observation, I
> suggest
> > that the concept of "Mine!" develops shortly after "No!" and long
> before
> > either "Yours" or "Ours."
> >
--
Please do any e-mailing to <them...@dvpn.org>.
Deja.cow is only good as a spamtrap, anymore (oh, boo hoo moo!)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
GMan
Pax Vobiscum
GMan
WOTT SMC
icq 10791151
"where'd you get them coconuts?"
"Two Crows" <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote:
>Just add prana?
>
>BB
>TC
>
>Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
>news:38E833E...@net1plus.com...
>> Merry Meet Melanie:
>> Instant Dogma *G*
>> Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
>> The mixes are done, mastering at the end of the month and hopefully disks
>out
>> by mid-summer....
>> http://instantdog.easynews.com
>> http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Parade/2166/
>> Chovhani wrote:
>>
>> > Instant Karma <G>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Melanie
>> > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
>> > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
>> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
>updated
>> > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
>> >
>> > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
Rhyanon
GMan <dgo...@seidata.com> wrote in message
news:l8uhes4p3j241hq21...@4ax.com...
Two Crows
Spelling and Grammar Police as well as the Rev TC Defamation League...
BB
TC
Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:hA8G4.751$X21....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Rhyanon
>:)
Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
news:ZK8G4.299$xe6....@ratbert.tds.net...
Snakes
Thank you. It has a ring of truth to it...
(Spoken as someone who has lived outside the law for a long time...)
Blessed be, Lady Dionne
Two Crows wrote:
> Dearest Lady Dionne:
> I love it, sounds like something straight out of the Tao Te Ching...
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
> news:38E8343E...@net1plus.com...
> > Dearest T.C.:
> > My friend Julian has a good quote: "To live
> outside the
> > law, one must be completely honest."
> > Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
> >
> > Two Crows wrote:
> >
> > > Haha! There is no honor among thieves (I think I read that in the DMG).
> The
> > > "ethical" thief can serve a valuable purpose in society...as there are
> all
> > > kinds of things that can be made from finger bones...
> > >
> > > BB
> > > TC
> > >
> > > Rhyanon <rhy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > > news:oPIF4.6207$is2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > Unfortunately, having been helping my husband's family in the
> > > > gemstone trade, I see a plethora of hucksters who simply move on to
> > > > the next mark when caught out. Jewelers try to communicate, and
> > > > ensure people hear about these types, but they always find a sucker
> > > > somewhere. So, what of these "ethic - less" ones? What of career
> > > > thieves and con artists? They seem to have a code of conduct unto
> > > > themselves...........
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message
Snakes
I must be as dumb as a box of
hammers. I just don't git it... More input???
Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
Two Crows wrote:
> Just add prana?
>
> BB
> TC
>
> Snakes <sna...@net1plus.com> wrote in message
> news:38E833E...@net1plus.com...
> > Merry Meet Melanie:
> > Instant Dogma *G*
> > Blessed Be, Lady Dionne
> > The mixes are done, mastering at the end of the month and hopefully disks
> out
> > by mid-summer....
> > http://instantdog.easynews.com
> > http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Parade/2166/
> > Chovhani wrote:
> >
> > > Instant Karma <G>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Melanie
> > > http://www.ifaith.com - Interfaith community.
> > > http://earthhome.tripod.com - Family & Home - NEW UPDATES!
> > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4838 - My Spiritual Website,
> updated
> > > and re-organized, but not QUITE finished!
> > >
> > > Two Crows <sojo...@mail.tds.net> wrote in message