another love spell question/theory .. ;)
heyduh
etc.
i got a newsletter this morning ..
the reason it said most love spells don't work is
1. they create artificial need in the target
2. they subliminally make the target believe that only you can fulfill
those needs
3. target comes to you (or back to you in return-ex type spells)
4. target realizes that their real needs are not being met
5. target may break free from spell and the relationship is doomed
so, the newsletter goes on to elaborate that to make love spells real
and long lasting
1. use divination to understand what targets real needs are
2. spell should make you be able to fulfill those needs
3. spell makes target subliminally realize that you can fulfill their
"real" needs
4. target comes to you (or back to you in return-ex type spells)
5. target realizes that their real needs are being met.
6. fosters true love.
and since we all have changing needs, it requires more hard
work/relationship building etc. or casting more "good" love spells to
meet the changed needs of target
thoughts?!
Eladrel
I think the fundamental difference in those approaches is where the
energy is focused. The failing approach attempts to change another while
the successful approach attempts to change you. I believe the latter to
be infinitely better.
--
Eladrel
Jackdaw
"heyduh" <hey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147871940.7...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ok, so i've been doing some more reading/researching about love spells
> etc.
>
> i got a newsletter this morning ..
>
> the reason it said most love spells don't work is
>
> 1. they create artificial need in the target
> 2. they subliminally make the target believe that only you can fulfill
> those needs
> 3. target comes to you (or back to you in return-ex type spells)
> 4. target realizes that their real needs are not being met
> 5. target may break free from spell and the relationship is doomed
>
> so, the newsletter goes on to elaborate that to make love spells real
> and long lasting
>
Ask yourself, what are the persons needs and what are they looking for in a
partner.
Not divination.use intelligence. If you havn't figured it out, it may be too
late.
Or you can ask that person what they are looking for. If you can't provide,
don't bother.
> 2. spell should make you be able to fulfill those needs
You wish! The operative word here is "Should", and perhaps with practice
perhaps.
> 3. spell makes target subliminally realize that you can fulfill their
> "real" needs
That is cheating and "not a good thing". Try telling the person to their
face. If said person hates your guts, sorry... no way.
> 4. target comes to you (or back to you in return-ex type spells)
Forcing a person against their real will, is a perversion. Are you so
desperate to force this person, because of YOUR wants? ARe you a pyshic
stalker?
> 5. target realizes that their real needs are being met.
Looking at the preceding list, I doubt they DO, if you are feeding them a
glamour.
> 6. fosters true love.
That would not be "True Love", but an illusion, that sooner or later would
collapse.
To ensnare another my magic spell, is asking for a great deal of trouble and
some nasty repercussions.
> and since we all have changing needs, it requires more hard
> work/relationship building etc. or casting more "good" love spells to
> meet the changed needs of target
>
>
> thoughts?!
>
As above.
--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.
Every ones a genius.
Until they try to do something
Jani
Thoughts? You've added divination to the original coercion, to improve the
coercion.
Second thoughts - you're still trying for possession rather than a
relationship.
Third thoughts: you really should get a life.
Jani
'Thenie
> "heyduh" wrote...
> >
> > ok, so i've been doing some more reading/researching
about
> > love spells etc.
> >
> > i got a newsletter this morning ..
>From where/who?
Fourth thoughts: counselling, to ascertain why you insist on
either manipulating others or holding on to a dead hope.
Look, fella...
You are stuck by your own stubborn desires, regardless of
whether the object has any natural interest in you. You are
not going to experience "true love" in this pursuit. True
love comes on its own in response to honest and true
attraction. What you are trying to forge here is unnatural
and false.
Don't you believe you deserve real, true love? Do you
believe the only love you will find in the whole of the
remainder of your is a love that has to be manipulated and
artificially created? Do you really believe enslaving
another or fooling them will make either of you happy?
Let me lay this out for you to consider:
If your 'ex-' has gotten her shit together, then no amount
of study and glamouring will work on her. The best way to
teflon-coat oneself against spells is to be solid in one's
own heart, mind and spirit. In a competition between your
heart/mind/spirit and hers, I can tell she will be extremely
resistant to your attempts at spellcraft, just by knowing
she left and you haven't moved on.
Buddy, let it go and find out what better situation is
around the corner. If you keep at this fool's errand, you
will so warp yourself as to make you too emotionally,
mentally and spiritually ugly for >anyone< to take an
interest in.
Keep in mind the old adage that the best revenge is living
well.
-'Thenie
'Thenie
Passing thought:
The girl who left has "heyduh" spellbound. Here he is,
desperately trying to find some way to 'magically' reverse
the course of events and get her back, and in point of fact
she has him caught in HER magic(k) power.
What's it like to have your free will compromised?
-'Thenie
-A.
I was going to go into a long-winded bit about love and spellcraft. I
was going to tell heyduh that he is in for one hell of a karmic
smackdown should he proceed. I was going to tell heyduh that spells to
control inevitably lead to the caster *being* controlled.
Then you come along and show that he already *is* controlled. By his
own constructs and foolhardy ways. I have a bit of a theory that we
begin casting a spell the moment we begin pouring energy into casting
said spell. In other words, spells are begun, at least in my view, the
moment we decide we are going to do them - from that point, we are
raising energy as we research wording, correspondences, components,
methodologies, $Deity, etc. The moment the actual "casting" occurs is
but the telos of the endeavor - one has been raising energy for quite
some time (hours, days, weeks of research and planning), not just from
the moment one enters circle.
By this logic, heyduh is already in the process of casting this spell.
And, it seems to me, this is proof that he is already ensnared by his
own karma to do so. A cursory glance at the situation shows, to me at
least, that she *bound* *him* to his own self-destruction. A karmic
smackdown is inevitable should heyduh continue this path.
One has to wonder just what he did to deserve being so caught up in such
self-desctructive tendencies. There's an old addage - "Every smoker
has a story". I believe it's also true for every person with a similar
addiction to self-destructive behavior. What his is, is anyone's guess.
Heyduh, DON'T proceed. You're already pouring energy into the task of
controlling her mind and soul just by researching how to do it. Stop
now and you'll minimize the karmic bitchslap you've got in store.
Blessed Be,
-A.
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GCS d-- s-:+ a-- C++ UL++$ P+ L++ E-
W+++ N++ o K w$ O- M V- PS++ PE- Y+
PGP t+ 5 X+ R+ tv b+++ DI++++ D--- G
e>e++ h !r !y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
> >
> > Passing thought:
> > The girl who left has "heyduh" spellbound. Here he is,
> > desperately trying to find some way to 'magically'
reverse
> > the course of events and get her back, and in point of
fact
> > she has him caught in HER magic(k) power.
> >
> > What's it like to have your free will compromised?
>
Andrew:
"Heyduh" says he's been studying magick for about a week and
says he feels ready to cast his own spell and wants a recipe
to do so. He has stated (on other ng's, granted) that he
accepts the risks and just wants the info to proceed.
I would be absolutely >fascinated< to hear your take on the
maiden undertaking of "heyduh"'s week-old magickal career.
Meanwhile, here's a third homily, from the Arabs:
"To spit poison, first you must take it into your own
mouth."
I think most will get the significance.
'Thenie
heyduh
afternoon :)
joneko
of a love spell? What does it, or is it supposed to, do? I always had
this idea that it drew you to the person you were connected to --
helped you find the other end of your red thread, so-to-speak. I never
imagined that it gave you the power to tie a lasso and loop it around
someone's throat. Yet, from this description as well as most how-tos
I've seen in books, magazines, and online, love spells have very
specific targets that you're supposed to concentrate on. By drawing
them to you in this way, aren't you cheating them? Is that truly any
satisfying sort of love, isn't it just illusion?
I don't mean to offend, and I really hope I haven't. I just get the
sense that there is a distinct gap between what many people perceive as
a love spell and what its true functions and purposes are, and I feel
like the list here just punctuates that fact -- it lists all the things
I always thought a love spell wouldn't actually be to someone who holds
spells close to their heart.
Romauld
: This may sound rather odd and ignorant, but what exactly is the purpose
: of a love spell?
Depends who you ask.
Looking at the magical papyri (Attic Greece) a love-spell was designed
to create a literal hysteric mania in the victim, which could only
be assuaged by the caster. Women (and men) doing all kinds of things
from violent destruction of property to murder of people standing in
the way are all supposed to be side-effects of a love-spell.
This also isn't restricted to human spells: there's a good reason why
the Greeks feared Eros and saw him as a kind of disease, rather than
dedicating a hallmark day to him.
~R
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu
"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses
or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not
change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
- Giordano Bruno
Baird Stafford
This is what folks have been trying to say, actually. You noted, of
course, that all the spellwork goes on *you* and none on the
"target...."
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin of soc.religion.paganism
Modstaff of alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Newstaff, Inc. at newstaff.com
Jani
"'Thenie" <mtn_...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:xtPag.9913$UY6.6859@trnddc08...
[]
> Passing thought:
> The girl who left has "heyduh" spellbound. Here he is,
> desperately trying to find some way to 'magically' reverse
> the course of events and get her back, and in point of fact
> she has him caught in HER magic(k) power.
>
> What's it like to have your free will compromised?
Heh. Nicely observed :)
I'm increasingly of the opinion that this is another example of someone
trailing round all the pagan/craft groups demanding spells, and when they
don't get them, whining that everyone's a fake and no-one knows any spells
anyway.
Jani
-A.
At this point, my take on Heyduh's first foray into magic is pretty cynical.
I feel that giving him the information he seeks is like giving John Lee
Malvo a loaded .30-06, directions to the nearest gas station, and a
nice, convenient car trunk to hide in. It only ends badly.
Heyduh is that rare individual who seems so hell-bent on his own
self-destruction despite legions of people who have been there jumping
up and down, screaming, tearing out their hair, and yelling "DON'T!"
That he has persisted in going from ng to ng asking for the same
information shows to me that he hasn't learned not to touch the hot stove.
I remember my own first foray into magic. I was nervous as hell. I
cast the circle counterclockwise for the first three quarters of it,
stopped, went around deosil for about half, went another half
widdershins, and then threw up my hands and started the whole circle
casting over again, this time entirely deosil. I burned myself on my
lighter trying to light the candles, my sleeve got charred a bit by the
incense, and the candles kept getting blown out by the wind. I dropped
the athame on the ground and nearly wound up pinning my foot to the
earth in the process. I got one message from that whole affair: do not
meddle in the affairs of love spells until you are *DAMNED* sure you
know what the hell you are doing. I didn't try again for a full year.
I interpret the whole mess as Deity telling me, in neon letters a parsec
high, "NO!"
What separates my foray from Heyduh's fool's errand is that while he is
seeking to *control* love, and to control another's heart and mind, I
was looking to *find* love. He'll get a cosmic smackdown, for sure.
And it will hurt. One can only hope the Gods are gentle and see this as
a first offense and thus grant some form of clemency - otherwise, it
will hurt a hell of a lot more.
I also hope that, should he proceed with this foolishness, he knows
enough on how to ground and center afterwards - the sheer volume of
energy necessary to change a person from *within* is mindboggling; doing
so from *without* takes a f**k-tonne more. I forsee Heyduh being out of
commission for several days afterwards; after that, his life will
probably be hell on earth for quite some time as karma catches up to
him. It *won't* be pretty.
My advice? Heyduh: give up on trying to force her to love you. Just
give up. Cut your losses. Let her live her own life - she left you.
DEAL with it. If, in time, you feel that you need love in your life
once more, look for it - BUT don't look at *HER* for it. Look elsewhere.
Don't let your first foray into magic be something so monumentally
stupid. Period.
That's my take.
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > I would be absolutely >fascinated< to hear your take on
the
> > maiden undertaking of "heyduh"'s week-old magickal
career.
>
<snip>
Actually, I was thinking about "heyduh"'s idea of being
able/prepared to handle magick after only a week's interest
and study.
After all you've been through, Andrew, I think you finally
grasped the most important thing a person can take into the
practice of magick: an awareness and acceptance that there
is More to things than any individual can know.
You've finally Gotten constructs, you've finally Gotten how
consciousness defines and equates to the world one exists
within, you've finally Gotten the importance of faith and
flying without a net. Through courageous effort, you have
managed to step beyond your beliefs and fears and move from
one consciousness to another, one world of existence to
another. Your world >must< be larger than it was, more full
of options than it was, even a year ago.
The first tool of magick is oneself, all the pretty props
and 'arcane knowledge' notwithstanding. You can have access
to every spell recipe in the universe, the best incenses,
the exact right candles and robes, the coolest athame and
wand and spooky mansion or grove to cast in...but the real
magick is inside, and when you have the ability to shift
perspectives, to shift consciousness, even if you have to
set aside comfortable and familiar constructs, THEN is
magick truly and effectively happening.
You, Andrew, demonstrate this. You are letting go of your
previous white-knuckled hold on POVs that you have come to
at least entertain no longer serve. You have begun to at
least entertain that maybe you really don't have all the
answers (I surely don't have all the answers for my own
life!) and that allowing that idea a place in your life does
not mean your life will fold in on itself like a house of
cards. I imagine that it also informs your relationships
with others, both intimates and strangers, with the
realization that all lives are houses of cards, just waiting
for the right circumstances to cause a collapse. And
hopefully you can see that collapse is neither totally bad
nor necessarily permanent.
It is the nature of the human ego to strive for
self-preservation. Ego is a tool of the mind, with no
physical existence, whose purpose is to drive us toward the
Light. It's job is to be the glue that holds the
non-corporeal together and binds it to the earthly body.
That which has to do with self, identity, individuality,
one's unique point in time and space, is all the realm and
work of ego. But 'ego' is a mental construct, a tool toward
growth. And the fact that ego also has to do with
self-preservation, hunger, desire, pride, shame, anger,
competition, comparison, envy, jealousy, suspicion, fear,
and many other complications that have 'self' at its root,
this can result in crossed wires and greater ignorance.
Ego, applied correctly, will move us forward; ego,
mishandled, will dig us deeper into ignorance.
Andrew: you have an experience under your belt that weakens
your ego-born fears. While none of us ever acts completely
ego-free or ego-complicated, it is available to us to act
with ego >advising< instead of >ruling<. Another gift of
ego is courage, and we can use that as a tool against ego
itself. Ego gives us fear (to caution and preserve us)
while holding courage behind its back (to allow us to move
beyond fear instead of be ruled be it). It's getting beyond
our comfort zone that tempers us and makes us strong. It's
getting beyond our comfort zone that allows us to expand out
experiences, consciousness, and world.
I know that first time through is scary and hard and
difficult, but it is the proof that helps us get through
ever after. You've been blessed, Andrew, and it was
entirely in your own hands and of your own doing. Just
remember it's only a first step, and that every time is a
first step of its own, with paralysing fears and no
assurances and something new to learn or re-learn in the
process. It is not the love that has come to you that is
the real blessing, but the experience of punching holes in
your constructs and finding out there is More.
You now know there are limits to any POV, any construct, any
fear. As long as you maintain that awareness, though fear
is just as terrifying and the devil you know seems more
acceptable than the devil you don't know, you can still get
past the challenge and act upon your True Will. You are
becoming aware that there is Choice. That is a true
blessing.
How long did it take? How long to practice magick, read the
literature, discuss daily with people in this ng and
elsewhere, mull over what you experienced and process it,
apply >outside< the cast circle what you've learned? With a
calling and an intuitive 'in', how long before you began to
Get It? "Heyduh" expects to Get It in a week; what do you
think of that?
Not long ago you were crazy to get past the riddles and the
convoluted speech; you wanted it done. Does it make a
little more sense now? There was a wall in your mind,
something treated by you as solid and immoveable (and might
as well be, so long as you believed it), that finally
shifted. The Tarot card that addresses the fear is the Nine
of Wands. Through the self-preservation instincts of Ego,
all these defensive rods are set firmly in the ground
(grounded will, grounded fears), forming a fortress against
all comers, friend or foe. How like a jail a fortress
becomes. Your awareness grew until the reality of your
cramped space hit home, and you broke free. Just remember
that we break free of one small space to find freedom in a
slightly larger space; it's a lifetime work.
But you now have this key. How long to even begin to
recognise it? How long to develop your vision, to be able
to see it? How glorious that it >can< be found, even
without a clue as to how to find it, what form it is to
take, where to look, how to recognise it. The secret is
that you can't recognise a tool until you fully understand
the use it is to be put to. The secret is that the tool is
hidden in plain sight; it was >always< available. No one
hid it from you but you (you and your fears). If we told
you (and actually we all told you), you wouldn't believe us.
It's an initiatory process we all go through and will go
through again. Remember that it's ego's job to put
cohesiveness into us and help us endure; we revisit
challenges over and over, even though we >think< we've put
any one of them to bed. Humility is your friend.
I use the Major Arcana card VII The Chariot to describe
where you are now. It's the card or miracles and the
unexpected.I describe it in this was:
A man on pilgrimage, making his way through the
wasteland. He is joyous and happy, firm in his belief that
he is on his way to a Very Good Thing, the nature of which
he does not know, the way there he does not know, the
arrival time of which he does not know. He is firm in his
faith (hence, his journey is a 'pilgrimage), so rather than
questioning the matter, he just drops everything and goes.
That's the backstory.
He meets a Great Wall in the wasteland, higher than
he can climb, too long either side to get around, set too
deep to dig under, and without any window, chink or door to
go through. It's the ultimate obstacle. The ordinary man
would accept the reality, give up, and go home. This is a
man of Absolute Faith, so the Wall does not through him, not
even to diminish his joy and happiness. He Knows he's
supposed to arrive at a place distant from here, and he
Knows with a certainty that this Wall won't stop him.
A moment later, through unknown means, he finds
himself on the other side of the Wall. He doesn't remember
how, or when, he just realises he is now on the other side
and the obstacle no longer between himself and his
destination. So he goes merrily on his way, not stopping to
marvel or even to try and work out the mechanics of how it
happened. All he knows is that he is free to go on his way
and so resumes his pilgrimage accepting that all is as it is
supposed to be.
Belief moves mountains, cuts through even the firmest and
most stubborn construct of the mind. Magick is part and
parcel of belief.
Andrew, you moved a mountain in yourself. You have reason
to feel blessed beyond the simple result of finding love.
You've a learned the lesson in looking past your own
definitions and constructs. I hope this continues for you,
because then you will be able to fulfil more closely your
True Will.
As for "heyduh"...I don't think he Gets It yet. I'm just
not hearing it in him yet.
-'Thenie
<pardon second posting>
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > the maiden undertaking of "heyduh"'s week-old magickal
> > career.
>
<snip>
Actually, I was thinking about "heyduh"'s idea of being
able/prepared to handle magick after only a week's interest
and study.
After all you've been through, Andrew, I think you finally
grasped the most important thing a person can take into the
practice of magick: an awareness and acceptance that there
is More to things than any individual can know.
You've finally Gotten constructs, you've finally Gotten how
consciousness defines and equates to the world one exists
within, you've finally Gotten the importance of faith and
flying without a net. Through courageous effort, you have
managed to step beyond your beliefs and fears and move from
one consciousness to another, one world of existence to
another. Your world >must< be larger than it was, more full
of options than it was, even a year ago. Not because this
love finally happened for you, not for the change brought by
results; with or without desired results, your world
expanded by virtue of redefining yourself and your
situation, unmasking new options.
The first tool of magick is oneself, all the pretty props
and 'arcane knowledge' notwithstanding. You can have access
to every spell recipe in the universe, the best incenses,
the exact right candles and robes, the coolest athame and
wand and spooky mansion or grove to cast in, the perfect and
most powerful magickworker to apprentice to...but the real
magick is inside, and when you have the ability to shift
perspectives, to shift consciousness, even if you have to
set aside comfortable and familiar constructs, THEN is
magick truly and effectively happening.
You, Andrew, demonstrate this. You are letting go of your
previous white-knuckled hold on POVs that you have come to
at least entertain no longer serve. You have begun to at
least entertain that maybe you really don't have all the
answers (I surely don't have all the answers for my own
life!); and allowing that idea a place in your life does
not mean your life will fold in on itself like a house of
cards. I imagine that it also informs your relationships
with others, both intimates and strangers, with the
realization that all lives are houses of cards, just waiting
for the right circumstances to force a collapse. And
hopefully you can see collapse is neither totally bad nor
necessarily permanent.
It is the nature of the human ego to strive for
self-preservation. Ego is a tool of the mind, with no
actual
physical existence, whose purpose is to drive us toward the
Light. Its job is to be the glue that holds the
non-corporeal together and binds it to the earthly body.
That which has to do with self, identity, individuality,
one's unique point in time and space, is all the realm and
work of ego. But 'ego' is a mental construct, a tool toward
growth. And the fact that ego also has to do with
self-preservation, hunger, desire, pride, shame, anger,
competition, comparison, envy, jealousy, suspicion, fear,
and many other complications that have 'self' at its root,
this can result in crossed wires and greater ignorance.
Ego, applied correctly, will move us forward; ego,
so easily mishandled, can and does dig us deeper into
ignorance.
Andrew: you have an experience under your belt that weakens
your ego-born fears. While none of us ever acts completely
ego-free or un-ego-complicated, it is available to us to act
with ego >advising< instead of >ruling<. Another gift of
ego is courage, and we can use that as a tool against ego
itself. Ego gives us fear (to caution and preserve us)
while holding courage behind its back (to allow us to move
beyond fear instead of be ruled be it). It's getting beyond
our comfort zone that tempers us and makes us strong. It's
getting beyond our comfort zone that allows us to expand out
into experiences, consciousness, and world.
I know the first time through is scary and hard and
what is really only a slightly larger space, needing us to
break through that one and the next one and the next one;
it's a lifetime's work.
But you now have this key. How long to even begin to
recognise it? How long to develop your vision, to be able
to see it? How glorious that it >can< be found, even
without a clue as to how to find it, what form it is to
take, where to look, how to recognise it. The secret is
that you can't recognise a tool until you fully understand
the use it is to be put to. The secret is that the tool is
hidden in plain sight; it was >always< available. No one
hid it from you but you (you and your fears). If we told
you (and actually we all told you), you wouldn't believe us
(and you didn't). It's an initiatory process we all go
through and will go
through again. Remember that it's ego's job to put
cohesiveness into us and help us endure and progress; we
revisit
challenges over and over, even though we >think< we've put
any one of them to bed. Humility is your friend.
I use the Major Arcana card VII The Chariot to describe
where you are now. It's the card of miracles and the
unexpected. I describe it in this way:
A man on pilgrimage, making his way through the
wasteland. He is joyous and happy, firm in his belief that
he is on his way to a Very Good Thing, the nature of which
he does not know, the way there he does not know, the
arrival time of which he does not know. He is firm in his
faith (hence, his journey is a 'pilgrimage), so rather than
questioning the matter, he just drops everything and goes.
That's the backstory.
He meets a Great Stone Wall in the wasteland, higher
than
he can climb, too long either side to get around, set too
deep to dig under, and without any window, chink or door to
go through. It's the ultimate obstacle. The ordinary man
would accept the reality, give up, and go home. This is a
man of Absolute Faith, so the Wall does not throw him, not
even to diminish his joy and happiness. He Knows he's
supposed to arrive at a place distant from here, and he
Knows with a Certainty that this Wall won't stop him.
A moment later, through unknown means, he finds
himself on the other side of the Wall. He doesn't remember
how, or when, he just realises he is now on the other side
and the obstacle is no longer between himself and his
destination. So he goes merrily on his way, not stopping to
marvel or even to try and work out the mechanics of how it
happened; you don't analyse or question miracles. All he
knows is that he is free to go on his way and so resumes his
pilgrimage accepting that all is as it is supposed to be.
Belief moves mountains, cuts through even the firmest and
most stubborn construct of the mind. Magick is part and
parcel of belief.
Andrew, you moved a mountain in yourself. You have reason
to feel blessed beyond the simple result of finding love.
You've learned a lesson in looking past your own
definitions and constructs. I hope this continues for you,
because then you will be able to fulfil more closely your
True Will.
As for "heyduh"...I don't think he Gets It yet. I'm just
not hearing it in him yet. Pity, that...
-'Thenie
<pardon [corrected] second posting>
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > the maiden undertaking of "heyduh"'s week-old magickal
> > career.
>
<snip>
Actually, I was thinking about "heyduh"'s idea of being
heyduh
it, blah blah ... but have not heard one explanation of how exactly it
is going to hurt me.
Anyone care to explain?
Baird Stafford
> Anyone care to explain?
Sure. Do you want a lover who will share in life's joys and sorrows, a
partner who is your equal in every way? Or do you want a mindless
slave, bound to you by coercive Magic, who hasn't a thought in his/her
head not allowed by the "love" spell? How soon would you become bored
with *that* one?
And this explanation, you will note, does *not* rely on the Rule of
Returns for its punch - although, if you are Wiccan, the Rule of
Returns, or Rule of Three, or whatever you want to call it, will most
definitely have an effect on your future existence, echoing, perhaps,
for several lifetimes ahead. Love spells - indeed, any "binding" spells
- carry a Karmic debt, in Wiccan belief, that most sane folks would
prefer to avoid.
Eladrel
I'll offer one possible scenario after mentioning that the number of
possibilities are enormous and most would be beyond my experience and
imagination.
I'd think it likely, if done without experience and informed, "healthy"
intent, for you to become (as mentioned previously) ruled by your
desire. It would be the sole occupation of your being and you would be
dependent upon it to such a degree that you would exist as a pitiful,
miserable human. And this is only what would happen internally, the
myriad of repercussions forced upon you from the outside compound the
results even more.
At a very basic level, the fact that you can't imagine what harm could
be done illustrates the fact that you are not ready to proceed.
Perhaps, at this point in your research, you should be thinking in terms
of how a love spell would help you, exactly. From what I can tell, you
are interested in making someone, someone specific, love you. This, to
my mind, seems very short-sighted, at the very least.
--
Eladrel
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> heyduh <hey...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've heard SO much about how bad love-spells are, and I should not do
> > it, blah blah ... but have not heard one explanation of how exactly it
> > is going to hurt me.
>
> > Anyone care to explain?
>
> Sure. Do you want a lover who will share in life's joys and sorrows, a
> partner who is your equal in every way? Or do you want a mindless
> slave, bound to you by coercive Magic, who hasn't a thought in his/her
> head not allowed by the "love" spell? How soon would you become bored
> with *that* one?
In addition to that, a board I read had a thread on love spells
recently, and several people mentioned that they'd tried to bind people
to them in the past and wound up stuck in relationships that they didn't
actually want, years later. The binding effect bound the caster to the
other person, even after the interest in pursuing the relationship was
long gone.
- Darkhawk, for what that's worth
--
Darkhawk - H. A. Nicoll - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
They are one person, they are two alone
They are three together, they are for each other
- "Helplessly Hoping", Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young
Yowie
news:1hfl9gu.ry1bqg1dqggl0N%ba...@newstaff.com...
> heyduh <hey...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've heard SO much about how bad love-spells are, and I should not do
>> it, blah blah ... but have not heard one explanation of how exactly it
>> is going to hurt me.
>
>> Anyone care to explain?
>
> Sure. Do you want a lover who will share in life's joys and sorrows, a
> partner who is your equal in every way? Or do you want a mindless
> slave, bound to you by coercive Magic, who hasn't a thought in his/her
> head not allowed by the "love" spell? How soon would you become bored
> with *that* one?
And..., after the novelty has worn off, just how then do you rid yourself of
a zombie-slave who is bound to you and is convinced that they love
passionately, obsessively love you, that no matter how badly you treat, will
keep demanding that you love them back?
<shudders at the abusie relationship triggers>
Yowie
'Thenie
Do you understand the concept of 'poetic justice'? It is
very unique to each person and situation. Magick works very
uniquely and very specifically in reaction to a variety of
very unique and specific components.
Magick begins in the mind, just like dreams. While there
are on the market 'dream books', they mostly have very
little use or validity, because each person's dreams arise
from personal experiences and unique interpretations of
their experiences, experiences which are themselves unique
to the individual. Each person has their own inner
symbology. To interpret an individual's dreams, you have to
understand that person and their experiences to get a handle
on the symbolism involved.
To take it a step further, magick is based on the mind,
heart, and spirit, just like psychology. To understand
another psychologically, to motivate them or heal their
psychic dis-ease, you have to get to know their
psychological shorthand, their inner symbolism. What is
significant to one person is of no significance to another.
It's very personal and very unique to the individual, just
as one's experiences are very unique to that person's life.
Every relationship we have, with others or even with objects
or situations, is unique, even over time. What thrilled you
as a 5-yr-old can be no biggie 40 years later or a
revelation. Think of "Citizen Kane" and 'Rosebud'. We
invest emotion into people, places, and things. We project
into them significance. The same occurs with the communion
wine, a gift from our first love, the anniversary of a
horrible accident, one's magickal tools. Significance can
be good, bad, or other; the point is that it is personal and
unique.
'Poetic justice' is a type of justice that is unique and
particularly suitable to the individual and situation. When
it occurs in real life, it cannot be anticipated, but it
sure is recognised when it comes. It is a little spooky
when it occurs; it's 'magick' in action.
We cannot tell you exactly what will befall you for treading
on another's free will and binding them to you; poetic
justice will take care of that. We don't know you or your
mind well enough to know how insidious the response from the
Fates will be, how karma will reach in to teach you your
folly. But make no mistake: there >will< be repercussions.
Just remember that it's a psychological thing, and as such
able to approach you on so many fronts that defence is
impossible.
Also, keep in mind that it has little to do with vengence or
'paybacks'. The things we do have an impact on others.
There is so much significance communicated in interaction
that it's impossible to either chart it all or (even more
so) anticipate it all. And every impact leads to a reaction
(which has an impact) and a counter reaction (which has an
impact) and so on. And there is dissonance, with all the
impacts occurring different times and from different
sources. Ripples heading out, responding to other ripples,
and responding to more ripples, and so on. What you do with
this has untold impacts to others and to other areas of your
life. It's too complicated to know what form any of these
ripples are going to have when they reflect back to you.
And here you are, thinking there's nothing wrong with
stealing a person's choice so long as it's done in secret.
You don't have enough self-respect to prefer real love;
you'll be satisfied manipulating someone into thinking they
love you (if you can succeed at it). You don't see that you
>are< a psychic stalker, obsessed with controlling another
human being. You don't get that you have 'issues', that you
have a real problem.
How it's going to hurt you...
If you had actually understood what we've been saying, you
would clearly see 'how it would hurt you'. But what I find
more interesting is that, psychic bully that you are, you
don't seem to care a whit about how it hurts the person you
>claim< you love. You don't love this person, you >desire<
her. You want her for your personal use. And that attitude
denotes a sick, twisted person.
If you can't get her honestly, on the basis of who you
really are, then why do you not move on to someone who will
honestly appreciate you? Why do you need an unfair
advantage, a cheat, a lie? Why do you insist on ambushing
her? What possible use can that be?
-'Thenie
'Thenie
Short answer:
It will injure your capacity to give and receive love. If
you are willing to risk that to gain control over this
person...
Can you see that it is already beginning to happen?
-'Thenie
'Thenie
Short answer:
It will injure your ability to give and receive love. If
you are willing to risk that to gain control over this
person...
Can you see that it is already beginning to happen?
And is the purpose of your love spell to secure this person
or merely to enslave this person and cause her pain? Is
this all about your hurt pride and making her pay?
If so, it will >still< injure your ability to give and
receive love.
And it may injure your ability to give and receive love
without ever affecting your 'ex-'. THAT is poetic justice.
-'Thenie
joneko
terms of magick.
I'm new to this. I know *nothing* about Wicca aside from what I've
been learning from "-A" (Andrew). This is a matter of common sense.
Do you really love this person? Are you really so concerned with what
she's doing, where she is, who she's with? Do you really want her
back, and can you really not let her go?
I understand that it hurts, and that you cannot let her go, or that you
do not want to. I'm not going to bother with the "if you love her, let
her go" lines, because if you're still hurt, that will be meaningless.
However, if you really do have feelings for her, you shouldn't
spellbind her to do something, think something, believe or feel
something against her will. How is that expressing your love for her?
If you bought her as a slave, would you feel, because you owned her,
you would be expressing her love? If you put her in chains so that she
could never wander away, would that be showing your love?
You ask how this is hurting you. I won't say karma. I won't say
justice. The question is, won't it hurt your conscience, at any point
in time, knowing that this isn't real?
You'll do this. You'll use this spell and suppose that it works. Your
lost love will be with you again -- but not of her own will. Not
because she wants to. Not because she loves you. There will be no
real feelings in the relationship; it might as well be as if she were
being bribed or threatened and played the part incredibly well.
How will that really make you happy? Won't you be miserable when you
see what you've done? Can you be happy in a relationship that holds
the spiritual and emotional equivalent of being with a blow-up doll?
Think about it.
And if the answer is yes, I'm sorry sir, but you need to set aside your
own intentions for just a second and ask a *far* more appropriate
question: how will this be hurting the person you claim to, you
supposedly "love" so much?
andrew....@gmail.com
question, I have noticed that there are several running themes.
First off, the notion of control runs throughout. Do you, Heyduh,
really want a slave? That is what you will have - a slave. She will
appear to have free will, but the key word there is *appear*. You will
have overrun her free will, supplanting it with your own perverse
notions of what you want her to want, what you want her to feel, what
you want her to think. Do you really hate her so much as to force her
into slavery?
Second, and more important, is a question of ethics. I assume you have
a healthy libido and desire an active sex life. With her. What you
are asking us to help you with is nothing short of magickal rape. You
would be raping her every time you touch her. Do you hate her so much
that you feel it necessary to degrade her, violate her against her own
will, and use her as nothing more than a disposable fuck toy?
You tell us you love her. Slavery is not an act of love. Rape is not
an act of love. What you ask us for is nothing shy of sexual slavery
so that you can get your rocks off. You seek a subservient slave who
will tend to your every depraved need, even though you know for a fact
that what you would have her do goes 1000% against what she has shown
she would not do, namely be with you.
You sicken me, sir. I am apalled by your need to enslave and rape.
That you would go from group to group seeking accomplices before the
fact speaks volumes. We would not want to sully our hands with the
karma of your depravity. If you still seek to perform such inhumane
and inhuman acts, do so with the knowlege that you are raping someone.
Know from this moment forth that you wish to be a rapist. I hope that
causes you as much discomfort as considering the consequences of your
own actions *for you* cause us.
If you persist, you do so on your own head. I pray the Gods have mercy
on you sir, simply because the karma you would be accruing results in a
come-uppance too terrible for me to comprehend. Walk away now or I can
assure you, my prayers *will* be in vain.
I don't want to be there when the Gods decide how best to give you the
karmic thrashing you so richly deserve. I pray that you see said
thrashing as something that results from your own sick thinking and
evil deeds and that you do not, instead, blame she whom you have
enslaved and raped. I pray, sir, that there is justice for her, should
you proceed. I pray that she finds a way to beat you, to defeat you.
Someone, some day, will serve you with your come-uppance, sir, and it
will be more terrible than even I can imagine.
Walk away or face the sure, swift, and certain wrath of the Gods,
terrible and without mercy. Walk away or face your own doom. It's
that simple.
My advice for right now is to take my words and meditate upon what
being a slaver, being a rapist, would do to your conscience, do to your
soul. If you like what you see, then there is nothing I can do to
persuade you - you're a lost cause. If, however (and I hope this is
the case), you cannot stomach the notion that you would be raping the
woman you love, walk away. Or, better yet, run, and never darken our
doorstep with these perverse plans of yours again.
Blessed Be,
-A.
Asrael
>
> You've finally Gotten constructs, you've finally Gotten how
> consciousness defines and equates to the world one exists
> within, you've finally Gotten the importance of faith and
> flying without a net. Through courageous effort, you have
> managed to step beyond your beliefs and fears and move from
> one consciousness to another, one world of existence to
> another.
<<snip>>
> -'Thenie
> <pardon [corrected] second posting>
I have to say that was a wonderful piece of writing. I can't help feeling I
ought to take up my keyboard and write the story of the Pilgrim. Yes, I know
John Bunyan already did. <smile> But it's a fabulous premise for a fantasy
novel. Using the tarot gives it colour and direction, and yes, I know it's
also been done before but I might do it better! <grin>
Why don't you write fiction? You are so erudite here and obviously have a
gift with language.
Asrael
sabracadabra
>I've heard SO much about how bad love-spells are, and I should not do
>it, blah blah ... but have not heard one explanation of how exactly it
>is going to hurt me.
Hi 'heyduh'
The reason you have not heard such an explanation is because the
repercussions are situation specific. There is no black and white,
cause and effect, or action and reaction explanation to provide you
with. There are so many elements and factors involved in what you want
to do that it is impossible to 'see' the results and outcome until
well AFTER you have made the attempt.
Personally I find your persistence and manner to be petulant and
childlike. You have been given a wealth of advice regarding your
request and it 'appears' that you are selectively disregarding
anything that isn't "what you want to hear" none the less that IS
'your choice' to make.
>Anyone care to explain?
Gladly.
First I will offer my interpretation of the Rule of 3 which admittedly
is rather different than the more conventional views held by many. As
for an 'explanation' of how your actions 'ARE' going to hurt you and
they ARE GOING TO; I'm going to broach an area I have not seen anyone
else address yet.You have not offered any information at all regarding
this girl you wish to make Love you so my response may or may not be
applicable, though I believe it will.
My interpretation of the Rule of 3 is that what you do will come back
to you in three 'forms' not the quantative 3 'times'.
Using magick IMHO is an act of three elements Body, Mind and Spirit.
The body (physical element) raises the 'raw energy' for the working
and combines it with your own inherent energy.
The Mind (mental/psychological element) harnesses the energy and
'aims/directs' it to fulfill the purpose of the working.
The Spirit (belief/spirituality/religion/will element) combines the
other 2 elements and powers the actual working/spell and when released
sets the working/spell in motion.
That being explained I will say (and I believe most here will agree)
that Magick is a 'tool' it is inherently neither 'Good' nor 'Bad' and
it is the 'nature' of your actions and/or "intentions' that makes a
working or spell positive/good or negative/bad.
Your actions ARE going to come back to you regardless of your
intentions (as they are subjective) and by using Magick in pursuing
this goal of yours you are opening yourself up completely to the
repercussions of your actions and you will be affected in each of the
areas I described above (mind,body and spirit) whether you are aware
of it happening or not. What you do maickally ALWAYS has consequences
whether or not you can see or understand or even be aware of what they
are. That is why 'most' will only resort to using magick AFTER all
mundane avenues have been tried or exhausted and in certain situations
will not use magick at all because it is simply inappropriate to the
goal.
This response has gotten far longer than I anticipated so instead of
blathering on speculating on conditions I don't know I am going to ask
you this one question.
Does this girl you wish to enslave to your will and desire know
ANYTHING at all about magick or using it?
I will wait for your response before I explain to you further just HOW
you are going to get yourself hurt if you pursue your goal in this
manner.
SabracadabrA
heyduh
>ANYTHING at all about magick or using it?
not as far as I know ... please continue your explanation. thanks
phorbin
hey...@gmail.com says...
> >Does this girl you wish to enslave to your will and desire know
> >ANYTHING at all about magick or using it?
>
>
> not as far as I know ... please continue your explanation. thanks
>
>
It doesn't matter whether she knows anything or not... if she senses
it... and be aware that most people do sense it... the odds are better
than good that you'll lose any chance at all.
I've been around this scene long enough to gain a lot of perspective on
the ways people mess up. I've seen people screw up the way you are
proposing you want to screw up... It can take the whole of an adult life
to recover. Some, including my sister, won't.
Take the advice all around, which is... don't ... People are fond of
quoting the guideline of 3. 3 is just an arbitrary poetic multiplier.
I've seen whole lives fall apart when a spell bounces.
I don't know about anyone else, but, I am feeling a bit provoked by your
density in this regard. I don't wish you ill. -- I do however, wish the
subject of your obsession every protection against your obsession and
against any spell you've cast or will choose to cast... or anything else
you may choose to do in pursuit your obsession.
Now pay attention.
Go seek help for yourself because you are lacking in the kind of empathy
that would make you a good partner for anyone.
If you want to cast a spell that will get you a mate, invest your effort
and time and money in transforming yourself into the kind of person who
is balanced enough to be a *partner* in a relationship.
Take the advice people have been giving you.
Lose the narcissism.
Lose the obsession.
moonspecks
I casted a love spell to bring back the woman that I love. I got 12 red
candles and I put them in a circle. I meditated for 20 minutes per day
for 12 days. I wrote my wishes on a piece of paper and I put in the
middle of the circle as well.
I really hope that it works although there is a member here "Thenie" said
he/she hopes that it doesn't.
I personally DON'T believe in the 3 laws cause I don't follow that
religion. Having said that, I believe in Karma and I do believe what goes
around come around.
I love that girl a lot and I wanna help her cause she had a rough life
with the law and she has low self-esteem.
It has been around 18 or 19 days since I've completed the spell, nothing
happened yet.
I also see magick as "praying to God." If you pray to God and God grants
you your wish, why is that a bad thing?
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> If you want to cast a spell that will get you a mate, invest your effort
> and time and money in transforming yourself into the kind of person who
> is balanced enough to be a *partner* in a relationship.
> Take the advice people have been giving you.
> Lose the narcissism.
> Lose the obsession.
And, if you read that newsletter you posted very carefully, you'll see
that it gave precisely the same advice. A spell for real love doesn't
change them in order to force them to accept you. It changes *you* in
order to make you more appealing and attractive to them. The choice,
however, remains theirs - even though that choice is sometimes, "No."
You might also consider carefully the testimonials, including phorbin's,
from people who have either tried love spells of the type you
contemplate or been close to those who did. Do you *really* want to
have that kind of life, afterward? If so, you aren't the kind of
masochist *I* would want to live with....
joneko
isn't necessarily the one you follow. However, I feel like the way
you're doing so is abusive and neglectful. You're using a spell to get
yourself something you want, but will not pay any heed to a basic tenet
of the religion *because* you do not follow it.
Then you use the analogy to praying to God. Is this a Christian
reference?
Would you appreciate someone saying that they were going to pray and
ask God for something even though they didn't have any intention of
believing that He was the creator or ruler, or that there was a Heaven
or Hell or judgement?
The basic principles of Karma are universal; it's no surprise that you
follow them. it's as simple as the observation of actions and
consequences. However, I feel like your use of a love spell, to gain
something for yourself, even though you say you want to take care of
this person because they've had a rough life, which is commendable, is
a very hollow use of something many people consider sacred.
I understand in heyduh's case, which has already been denounced to the
point that I no longer have to put my two cents in, why he would resort
to a love spell of the worst variety. However, in a case like yours,
have you spoken to this person, told them how you feel? Do they know
that you want to take care of them? Your intentions seem genuine --
why use a love spell? Has she turned you down, or is it simply a
fall-back to strengthen your chances?
Love spells are not a substitute for human interaction; they are not
fall-back plans; they are not the "easy way out" of putting work into a
relationship. If you want to be with a person, you have to face the
fears of failure, of making mistakes, of rejection. This is a part of
life, a part of growing as a human being, a part of forging a true,
lasting relationship with another. Love spells are no substitute, and
should not be used as such; doing so is an injustice to the person you
love *and* to yourself. Before you jump to the books and find your
candles and select a target, in my opinion, you should first try things
the "old-fashioned" way.
Otherwise, it's an abuse of magick, and you are taking advantage not
only of magick but also of the person you say you love. Everyone says
"I love this person so much," and then uses a love spell to ensnare
them; that's not love, that's want. Love is wanting another person to
be happy, and hoping that it can be with you, and trying to make that
possible -- and recognizing that, if that is not what will make them
happy, that despite how much you may want it, you wish for their
happiness too much to force them into something they do not want.
What I'm seeing here, what you and heyduh are exhibiting, is a shallow
desire for another human being. You do not care what or how they feel.
All you care about is that *you* want them, you want them *now*, and
that's all that is important to you. Selfishness does not equate to
love, not on any level.
'Thenie
>
> Well, I think I'm in a situation like heyduh
>
> I casted a love spell to bring back the woman that I love.
I got 12 red
> candles and I put them in a circle. I meditated for 20
minutes per day
> for 12 days. I wrote my wishes on a piece of paper and I
put in the
> middle of the circle as well.
Pink candles are for love, red candles are for desire, lust.
Your candlemagick is to effect the ensnarement of the object
of your desire, regardless of their own preference. Your
spell is to feed your hunger.
> I really hope that it works although there is a member
here "Thenie" said
> he/she hopes that it doesn't.
For the true happiness of both you and the object of your
desire. You act in folly, and the spell succeeding will
have only unhappy results.
> I personally DON'T believe in the 3 laws cause I don't
follow that
> religion. Having said that, I believe in Karma and I do
believe what goes
> around come around.
You don't have to believe in gravity and the world not being
flat either, but denial of a truth doesn't make it go away
or ineffective.
The "3 laws" (as you put it) describes the metaphysical
version of Newton's law of action existing with a mirror
reaction. Except magickal action moves in more than one
plane of existence, so bounces back in multiples of the
originating action.
> I love that girl a lot and I wanna help her cause she had
a rough life
> with the law and she has low self-esteem.
She chose her life, the life she is living; she weaves it
day-by-day and choice-by-choice and
repercussion-by-repercussion. She is working through her
past choices, learning and becoming aware on her own time
schedule, just as you and any other one of us is doing. It
is not your responsibility to try and step in and force a
resolution upon her. And doing so injures her and
interferes with her working out her life.
What makes you think you can change her direction? How is
it helping for you to lift her out of the environment which
will most quickly teach her what she needs to know to change
her direction? What arrogance for you to think all she
needs is you to 'rescue' her.
So her life is rife with the repercussions of the
experiences that she has faced her whole life; how is she to
learn, down to her very bones and heart, the lessons of her
life if you lift her out and place her in an artificial
velvet jail cell? You are not God, in spite of thinking you
can usurp God's direction of her life, so you cannot force
her to see "reason" (even magickally) and you cannot
guarantee you will be able or living to continue to
artificially control her or her environment.
What happens if you have a reversal of fortune? What
happens if you suffer physical or mental disability? What
happens if you die, something we cannot really anticipate?
Bound magickally to you and with her lessons in life halted
by your intervention, how does she pick up and continue with
her life?
What if she recognises that you are >not< what will help
her, what will fix her troubles? Will you second-guess what
is not your business in the first place and what may be
something entirely different that you currently expect?
How can you decide what she should have, then use a
manipulative device to secretly steal away her informed
consent?
Left to her own devices, she will eventually find her way
and be stronger for it. Left to yours, you will cripple her
unnecessarily and stunt your own growth in the process.
> It has been around 18 or 19 days since I've completed the
spell, nothing
> happened yet.
>
> I also see magick as "praying to God." If you pray to God
and God grants
> you your wish, why is that a bad thing?
Magick does not equate to "praying to God". In prayer, you
ask for something and God may or may not grant the request,
but God decides whether the greater good is served by
granting your prayer and decides how to go about it. In
magick, you put your will to work, maybe asking
God/Deity/Deities/Whatever to help, that help maybe being
lent or not; but in magick, you do the work and reap the
results, beneficial and harmful.
A deranged murderer may dedicate his acts to God, figuring
if the victim is meant to live then the stabbing or shooting
(or whatever means is applied) will not result in death.
The murderer believes that by calling on God, the
responsibility is averted for the acts, lethal and not
lethal. It strikes me as a form of blasphemy to blame the
effectiveness of a premeditated act on God.
You seem to be saying that if the candlemagick works, it's
the will of God; what BS! You're going to blame God for
this act? You conceived it, set it up, worked it, invested
yourself into it. If it works, you'll accept
responsibility, and if it doesn't it's "God's Will"? You
are going to test the worthiness of your demand by whether
it works, then take steps to ensure it works regardless?
Nice defence for every murderer all the way back to Cain and
Abel.
YOU are doing this to her; make no mistake on this point;
you won't even allow her a choice in the matter. Don't fool
yourself into thinking you are doing this FOR her; you are
doing this TO her. You can't possibly excuse away, even to
yourself, there being a price for you arising from this act?
You seem to be excusing the action by shifting the
responsibility to God's shoulders and by saying her life is
screwed up, so you're doing her a favor. But your approach
to this is screwed up from the get-go; how can you bring
balance to her life if >you< are screwed up, too? How can
you heal her when you don't even take responsibility for
your actions in doing this TO her? How can you strengthen
her if you rob her of choice? How can you ensure her safety
when death and change comes unbid and unexpected into every
life?
I'd say get a life, but you seem to think that means 'take
over someone else's'.
Keep one thing in mind: you aren't going to get any respect
here, in this ng, for using this woman. And as long as you
duck responsibility and try to justify this act, you will be
courting karmic backlash. If it was just on you, I'd say go
to and reap the repercussion, but this concerns another's
life and free will, one you don't respect enough to take to
heart, so on that point I wish you every failure in your
endeavor.
One last thing: don't use the term "target"; use the more
fitting and descriptive term "victim". Newspeak and spin
does not camouflage your action as being the act of one to
descend upon another to interfere in the victim's life. You
are victimizing this person just as surely as any kidnapper,
rapist, cultist, jailer, or murderer. You are attempting to
force this person to your will, with no regard or respect
for her own will. Call it what it is.
'Thenie
Joseph Littleshoes
The lesson of Jason & Medea. Never marry a witch and if you do don't
piss her off.
---
JL
Joseph Littleshoes
<edititng for space>
>
> Now pay attention.
>
> Go seek help for yourself because you are lacking in the kind of empathy
> that would make you a good partner for anyone.
>
> If you want to cast a spell that will get you a mate, invest your effort
> and time and money in transforming yourself into the kind of person who
> is balanced enough to be a *partner* in a relationship.
I agree that this is standard and good advice for acquiring a mate in
the ordinary way. Make oneself worthy of love. Not that miserable
people don't fall in love, they do, but usually with equally miserable
people.
Appreciate yourself, who you are, what you do, where you are etc. etc.
and people will want to be with you for that very reason.
On the other hand, following this thread as an observe, cause i find the
subject of 'spell work' interesting it occurs to me to ask, and pardon
my redundancy if this has already been addressed in this thread, but,
how do people feel about 'generic love spells'
A spell directed at the gods/universe & designed to facilitate the
meeting of the beloved?
---
JL
Joseph Littleshoes
Just the other night a hometown football game
My wife and I ran into my old high school flame
And as I introduced them the past came back to me
And I couldnt help but think of the way things used to be.
She was the one that Id wanted for all times
And each night Id spend prayin that God would make her mine
And if hed only grant me this wish I wished back then
Id never ask for anything again.
(chorus)
Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers
Remember when youre talkin to the man upstairs
That just because he doesnt answer doesnt mean he dont care
Some of gods greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.
She wasnt quite the angel that I remembered in my dreams
And I could tell that time had changed me
Inn her eyes too it seemed
We tried to talk about the old days
There wasnt much we could recall
I guess the lord knows what hes doin after all.
And as she walked away and I looked at my wife
And then and there I thankedd the good lord
For the gifts in my life.
*chorus*
Some of gods greatest gifts are all too often unanswered...
Some of gods greatest gifts are unanswered prayers
Garth Brooks "Unanswered Prayers".
----------------------------------
JL
moonspecks
Can you point me to Phorbin's testimonials? And what you mean by
afterwords?
moonspecks
Why it will bring only "unhappy results?"
Why wouldn't we be able to live happily ever after?
Yes, she chose her life, but what if she chose a life that will bring her
misery? I know you might say that it's her choice and she will suffer the
consquences, but I WANT to be there for her. If something bad happens to
her or if she gets herself into trouble, I WANT to be there for her and
that's all because I LOVE her and I CARE abour her.
I don't want to control her. I just want us to be together.
Yes, I believe if the magick works, then it's God's will cause nothing can
happen without God's will and I mean NOTHING. For example, I can get
candles, put them in a circle and do magick for, let say, a year. The
magick will not work if God does not want it to work. However, if God
wants it to work, then it's God's will. Yes, I worked it, I set it up and
I put my energy into it, but how do you expect somebody to get what they
want without working hard for it? Yes, my friend, I have to work hard for
what I want, I have to put my energy into it, I have to invest myself into
it and with God's help, I will get my results. If God does not want me to
get what I want, then so be it. I accept whatever he gives me cause I
have strong faith in God. However, I believe if you want something, you
have to work hard for it cause God does not help you if you don't work
hard for what you want.
I'm not excusing my actions, I belive in Karma as I said and I do believe
that God always tests us in our life and I know that I'm not perfect.
Everyone of us makes mistakes. I have made mistakes in my life and I'm
going to make mistakes that's why we are called "humans."
I have no intention of robbing her of her free will. She can do whatever
she wants, I just "want" and "pray" that we will be together someday.
I really want no harm for her or for anyone else in that matter. And, if
there is harm for anyone, I hope that the magicks does not work, but if
there is no harm, I hope that it works
Best regards
'Thenie
<snip>
>
> On the other hand, following this thread as an observe,
cause i find the
> subject of 'spell work' interesting it occurs to me to
ask, and pardon
> my redundancy if this has already been addressed in this
thread, but,
> how do people feel about 'generic love spells'
>
> A spell directed at the gods/universe & designed to
facilitate the
> meeting of the beloved?
Spells done to open possibilities sound fine to me.
By possibilities, I mean having no one specific person
targeted and thereby victimised. One can hold up an
individual as a model, an ideal, a representation of what it
is one is looking for, but the moment it becomes personal it
becomes invasive.
Andrew earlier on put together a generic love spell, and
though it did not unfold to his expectations, I don't think
he's unhappy with the results. If anything, the less he
specified, the more room it had to fit him better than he
ever expected it to.
Note that Andrew's spell required a real change in him,
unbeknownst to him. It required he relax and trust the
process and have patience. These were difficult things for
him to do on his own, but the spell gave him a format to
develop trust and patience. Others in here helped him to
stay the course, helped him to allow the process to unfold;
perhaps this was part of the spell at work. As I said in
another post, this experience has handed him a boon greater
than just finding a love.
I think generic spells do a great deal to open us up to
possibilities. The first step is recognising and
acknowledging the limits of our own minds and expectations.
The second is to more clearly identify the area of need in
our lives. The third is to ask, in true humility, for
either the boon of our need assuaged or
revelation/enlightenment concerning our predicament. The
fourth is to establish and rely on trust and patience, that
all good things come in their proper time. The fifth and
final step is to accept, to not fight, deny, or reject the
result, even if it is not what we hoped.
Generic spells, gone about correctly, are one more way to
progress in spiritual development. They are one more way to
learn and grow, to deepen awareness and wisdom.
-'Thenie
'Thenie
> heyduh wrote:
> > "sabracadabra"
<attribution reestablished>
>snip>
> >>Does this girl you wish to enslave to your will and
desire know
> >>ANYTHING at all about magick or using it?
> > not as far as I know ... please continue your
explanation. thanks
>
> The lesson of Jason & Medea. Never marry a witch and if
you do don't
> piss her off.
Heh.
I married a ceremonial magician. Leaving him 11 years later
cost me my daughter and nearly my life. And this from a man
who wasn't even sure he wanted me.
-'Thenie
sabracadabra
Aaaaaahhhhh I see it now.
You ALREADY did the spell. You haven't seen any results and are
oblivious to the repercussions that are already occurring from both
your actions and the rebound. Your questions, persistance and manner
show your impatience and uncertainty. That is why you want black and
white answers right now and are disregarding most if not all the
advice you are being given. It's already too late and you don't know
what is going to happen or if it even worked or failed. And to make
matters worse you are seeking to try again because you didn't get the
immediate results you thought you would which only shows how oblivious
you are to what it is you are doing.
As for your response that you do not know if this girl you are
attacking knows anything about magick, That was your first mistake and
destined you to fail. I would have had more to say had you a
definitive answer but based on what you provided as information I can
only say that you failed to consider that some people (if not most and
I may be wrong here and hope I would be corrected) have both Natural
shields as well as Talent. Which in my humble opinion is probably the
worst case scenario for you if you cast your spell barring this girl
having a functional or worse yet intimate knowledge of magick that you
simply never knew of, in which case would quickly become your worst
nightmare and the possibilities of what could happen to you are too
many to begin explaining.
You are in over head, you are going to get yourself hurt if you
pursue this fool's errand of yours. I for one will not help you in
your endeavor. It is my belief that what you are doing or trying to do
is wrong and if anything I would do what I can to help this girl
defend herself from your actions.
I add my voice to the chorus heyduh DO NOT do the spell again and DO
NOT try using more magick to accomplish your goal. You are wide open
to repecussions you can't even comprehend with your limited knowledge
and understanding of Magick being only a week or two experienced with
it.
SabracadabrA
'Thenie
>
> Thenie,
>
> Why it will bring only "unhappy results?"
> Why wouldn't we be able to live happily ever after?
You really don't want to hear anything that doesn't support
your intent, do you?
> Yes, she chose her life, but what if she chose a life that
will bring her
> misery? I know you might say that it's her choice and she
will suffer the
> consquences, but I WANT to be there for her. If something
bad happens to
> her or if she gets herself into trouble, I WANT to be
there for her and
> that's all because I LOVE her and I CARE abour her.
>
> I don't want to control her. I just want us to be
together.
>
> Yes, I believe if the magick works, then it's God's will
cause nothing can
> happen without God's will and I mean NOTHING.
So rape as a fact of existence is God's wiill? Why is that?
Torture and child molesters are God's will? Why is that?
Genocide is God's will? Why is that? Her life (as it is
currently) is happening due to God's will, so why would you
interfere with God's plan for her?
Have you considered the arguments about free will, and God
giving that privilege to Humankind? If all things happened
by God's will, then why is there these Ten Commandments? By
God's will, we would not have temptation, no choice. But
what God denies Him/Herself, you would take upon yourself?
Since you don't accept my religion, take a look at yours.
Why would you take the road every other rapist and molester
and mind controller and torturer would take and interupt the
direction and playing out of another's life? God allows it,
but it's not what you would term "God's will". This is what
we do to ourselves and to each other. In the long run, we
learn from it, but why actively seek complication and
harming others?
> For example, I can get
> candles, put them in a circle and do magick for, let say,
a year. The
> magick will not work if God does not want it to work.
Sure it will. You press it, anything, it will happen,
regardless of the harm it may do. God's will is that you
will eventually learn from your errors. It's your choice to
screw up and get lost and eventually figure it out and get
things straight. You carry the responsibility for what you
do to yourself and to others, whether you claim the Devil or
God made you do it.
> However, if God
> wants it to work, then it's God's will.
The reality, my fine little psychic nazi, is that you
executed the deed but had a choice not to, and you chose to
do it so you are responsible. Even if the spell doesn't
work.
> Yes, I worked it, I set it up and
> I put my energy into it, but how do you expect somebody to
get what they
> want without working hard for it? Yes, my friend, I have
to work hard for
> what I want, I have to put my energy into it, I have to
invest myself into
> it and with God's help, I will get my results. If God
does not want me to
> get what I want, then so be it. I accept whatever he
gives me cause I
> have strong faith in God. However, I believe if you want
something, you
> have to work hard for it cause God does not help you if
you don't work
> hard for what you want.
There is such a thing as grace, the free gift that comes
against all odds. Free will is one of those gifts, which
you feel you can act to rip from someone else just because,
in your personal and limited human judgement, teh girl
doesn't somehow 'deserve' it. You think you can live her
life better, run it better, but you betray a lack of being
able to live an ethical and balanced life yourself.
Anything can be gained by hard work, God's will or not.
Genocide and kidnapping is hard work. Ask online preditors
and stalkers if their activities demand hard work to be
effective. Sometimes hard work is evidence (a sign from
God, if you like) that what you are attempting is against
the natural order and against God's will.
The bottom line is that what you really want is something
for yourself, not for her. How is undermining her will
going to help her stand strong in front of hard choices and
old fears? How is taking choice from her going to prepare
her for making good future choices?
> I'm not excusing my actions, I belive in Karma as I said
and I do believe
> that God always tests us in our life and I know that I'm
not perfect.
> Everyone of us makes mistakes. I have made mistakes in my
life and I'm
> going to make mistakes that's why we are called "humans."
>
> I have no intention of robbing her of her free will. She
can do whatever
> she wants, I just "want" and "pray" that we will be
together someday.
Doing spells to bind you to her, to cloud her judgement and
favor you ROBS HER OF FREE WILL.
> I really want no harm for her or for anyone else in that
matter. And, if
> there is harm for anyone, I hope that the magicks does not
work, but if
> there is no harm, I hope that it works
Your spellwork is fundamentally and ethically flawed. You
don't see it and don't wish to see it. Those of us more
experienced see the flaw, even if you don't. Your choice to
not hear us, to remain in denial, but ignorance is no excuse
and repercussions will arise, trust me, to teach you in
fundamental ways.
Your excuses and convoluted logic is not convincing to any
here. Do remember these discussions in the future, and
maybe you can head off some of the "learning experiences"
winging their way to you.
-'Thenie
Yowie
news:0e871e8c8b4b784a...@localhost.talkaboutreligion.com...
> Thenie,
>
> Why it will bring only "unhappy results?"
> Why wouldn't we be able to live happily ever after?
>
> Yes, she chose her life, but what if she chose a life that will bring her
> misery? I know you might say that it's her choice and she will suffer the
> consquences, but I WANT to be there for her. If something bad happens to
> her or if she gets herself into trouble, I WANT to be there for her and
> that's all because I LOVE her and I CARE abour her.
>
> I don't want to control her. I just want us to be together.
At no point have you ever mentioned what *she* wants. How can you possibly
say you care about her, when the only thing you are focussed on is *your*
wants, *your* desires.
Does she *want* to be with you? Does she *want* your help? Does she *want*
your attention? Does she *want* your love? Have you even bothered to ask
her, or doesn't her concerns, wants, needs and desires matter to you?
How is this different from rape when a person forces themselves onto and
into an unwilling person, or a stalker that continues to force themslevs
into another's life to "be with them" when clearly, the person being stalked
wants no such thing?
Yowie
-A.
<SNIP>
> On the other hand, following this thread as an observe, cause i find the
> subject of 'spell work' interesting it occurs to me to ask, and pardon
> my redundancy if this has already been addressed in this thread, but,
> how do people feel about 'generic love spells'
>
> A spell directed at the gods/universe & designed to facilitate the
> meeting of the beloved?
> ---
> JL
>
How do I feel about a spell directed at the universe designed to
facilitate the meeting of the beloved? Hm... let me think... (Just
kidding!).
My own take on what you term "generic love spells" comes from
experience. Note that I will be using female pronouns for the person
whom the caster meets as a result of the spell only because it's how I'd
normally write such a thing were I writing fiction.
First of all, they are quite difficult to do *right*. Great care must
be done to avoid casting the spell if you even have the vaguest notion
of a person you happen to admire in your mind. In other words, do not
do this type of spell if you already have feelings for someone - on a
subconscious level, you would be directing at least a bit of the energy
of the spell into making the admired the "target" (or, as 'Thenie puts
it, correctly in some cases, the "victim") of the spell. "Generic love
spells" in my mind are a technique to be used when you quite literally
know no one at all.
Second, the wording should be as general as possible as They know far
better than we *think* we do about what we really need in a lover. In
terms of visualization, think of places you'd like to take her, things
you'd like to show her, etc. /*DON'T*/ (I cannot emphasize this
strongly enough, even shouted and in stars and slashes) visualize what
she looks like. Period. That would be handcuffing Deity, and that's
the last thing you want to do with this type of thing.
The KISS principle is vital - Keep It Simple, Stupid. There's no need
to bury the spell in bells and whistles. Wording should be simple, to
the point, and concise. You're asking Deity to help you cast a wide
net, which is a simple request in and of itself, so there's really no
need to go beyond anything more than the equivalent of "Need Love, Need
Help".
Fourth, they *do* work. That said, Deity has a... divine... sense of
irony. Expect the unexpected. Be ready to laugh. The Powers That Be
have a bit of a penchant for giving you what you want in a manner you
never thought possible. I think it's because They just love the look of
absolute befuddlement on our faces when we get what we want and don't
know what to do next.
Last, don't look for someone *exactly* like you. My old spells for this
sort of thing not only handcuffed Her to my own silly notions of what I
want, but they also handcuffed Her to finding someone exactly like me.
The moment I tried to be as open-ended as possible, I wound up with
Joanna, and in many ways we aren't at all alike - we *compliment* each
other. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Blessed Be,
-A.
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d-- s-:+ a-- C++ UL++$ P+ L++ E-
W+++ N++ o K w$ O- M V- PS++ PE- Y+
PGP t+ 5 X+ R+ tv b+++ DI++++ D--- G
e>e++ h !r !y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-A.
> "Joseph Littleshoes" wrote...
> <snip>
>
>>On the other hand, following this thread as an observe,
>
> cause i find the
>
>>subject of 'spell work' interesting it occurs to me to
>
> ask, and pardon
>
>>my redundancy if this has already been addressed in this
>
> thread, but,
>
>>how do people feel about 'generic love spells'
>>
>>A spell directed at the gods/universe & designed to
>
> facilitate the
>
>>meeting of the beloved?
>
>
> Spells done to open possibilities sound fine to me.
>
> By possibilities, I mean having no one specific person
> targeted and thereby victimised. One can hold up an
> individual as a model, an ideal, a representation of what it
> is one is looking for, but the moment it becomes personal it
> becomes invasive.
I have a bit of an issue here with even holding up an individual as a
model or ideal as, subconsciously, we desire to be with those whom we
see as our ideal SO's. A spell done with such an ideal in mind would,
in my view, also be directing some energy towards the ideal. In my
mind, the safest way to do this type of working is without any
individual person in mind, so that you are sending the energy out to the
universe as opposed to sending it towards a specific, known person.
>
> Andrew earlier on put together a generic love spell, and
> though it did not unfold to his expectations, I don't think
> he's unhappy with the results. If anything, the less he
> specified, the more room it had to fit him better than he
> ever expected it to.
>
"Unhappy with the results"? Hehehehehehehehehe! 'Thenie, I've never
been happier in my entire life! Nothing would have happened if I
specified anything at all - leaving it as open as possible seems to be
the best course of action as it lets you look for whomever he or she may
be, and it lets the universe send whomever he or she may be your way,
without all that mucking about with specifics. Besides, She has a
divine sense of irony when it comes to these sorts of things and, ISTM,
a penchant for occasionally hitting people upside the head with what
they want.
> Note that Andrew's spell required a real change in him,
> unbeknownst to him. It required he relax and trust the
> process and have patience. These were difficult things for
> him to do on his own, but the spell gave him a format to
> develop trust and patience. Others in here helped him to
> stay the course, helped him to allow the process to unfold;
> perhaps this was part of the spell at work. As I said in
> another post, this experience has handed him a boon greater
> than just finding a love.
>
> I think generic spells do a great deal to open us up to
> possibilities. The first step is recognising and
> acknowledging the limits of our own minds and expectations.
> The second is to more clearly identify the area of need in
> our lives. The third is to ask, in true humility, for
> either the boon of our need assuaged or
> revelation/enlightenment concerning our predicament. The
> fourth is to establish and rely on trust and patience, that
> all good things come in their proper time. The fifth and
> final step is to accept, to not fight, deny, or reject the
> result, even if it is not what we hoped.
>
Heh. I kind of botched step five a bit. 'Thenie left out one thing -
step three point five - open oneself to all the changes that will occur
if the boon is indeed granted.
> Generic spells, gone about correctly, are one more way to
> progress in spiritual development. They are one more way to
> learn and grow, to deepen awareness and wisdom.
>
> -'Thenie
>
Blessed Be,
moonspecks
2 comments:
When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
did the magick, the spell is going to work?
Then you said, I'm responsible even if the spell does not work. Why would
I be responsible for something that didn't work? Yes, I tried to do it,
but it didn't work. How am I robbing her if the spell didn't work and she
is not with me?
Are you saying if I (or any human being for that matter) does a mistake,
then he or she is doomed?
heyduh
researching/reading/asking questions is the spell?
-A.
> "-A." wrote...
<SNIP stuff that I wrote about Heyduh doing monumentally stupid things>
>
> Actually, I was thinking about "heyduh"'s idea of being
> able/prepared to handle magick after only a week's interest
> and study.
>
There are fools, and then there are damned fools. To me, it seems he is
desperately trying to prove to us that he is of the latter category.
> After all you've been through, Andrew, I think you finally
> grasped the most important thing a person can take into the
> practice of magick: an awareness and acceptance that there
> is More to things than any individual can know.
>
I am painfully and yet blissfully aware of just how ignorant I am. It's
actually kind of fun, in a way, to be shown just how little you know
about something (or someone) as it means that there is stuff to *learn*.
I despise it when people call me their "computer expert" - I know
stuff about computers; expertise describes a level of knowlege I don't
have, a level of knowlege that suggests that there is far less to learn
than *I* have to learn. I don't want to be an expert in anything - I
want to be one who can always learn.
> You've finally Gotten constructs, you've finally Gotten how
> consciousness defines and equates to the world one exists
> within, you've finally Gotten the importance of faith and
> flying without a net. Through courageous effort, you have
> managed to step beyond your beliefs and fears and move from
> one consciousness to another, one world of existence to
> another. Your world >must< be larger than it was, more full
> of options than it was, even a year ago.
>
My world right now actually got a bit smaller, in one sense, and
immensely larger in another. In the latter sense, I am now aware of
just how much more there is out there to be learnt, how much more there
is out there to experience, how much more there is out there to ask
about. In the former sense, however, my world has also gotten smaller
insofar as The Search(TM) is over. It is smaller in that "You mean the
world to me" sense - Joanna *is* my world.
> The first tool of magick is oneself, all the pretty props
> and 'arcane knowledge' notwithstanding. You can have access
> to every spell recipe in the universe, the best incenses,
> the exact right candles and robes, the coolest athame and
> wand and spooky mansion or grove to cast in...but the real
> magick is inside, and when you have the ability to shift
> perspectives, to shift consciousness, even if you have to
> set aside comfortable and familiar constructs, THEN is
> magick truly and effectively happening.
>
You touch on something here - magick *is* the shifting of perspective.
One sets aside "mundane" consciousness to enter a "ritual" consciousness
in circle. It is in that mode of thought, that mode of being, where
power is raised, where intent and will are focused and directed, where
energy is sent out. Without the shift of perspective, no magick is
possible, IMHO. I see now that the key to working magick without tools
(one of my goals in life) is to be able to do that perspective shift at
will, on command, so to speak.
> You, Andrew, demonstrate this. You are letting go of your
> previous white-knuckled hold on POVs that you have come to
> at least entertain no longer serve. You have begun to at
> least entertain that maybe you really don't have all the
> answers (I surely don't have all the answers for my own
> life!) and that allowing that idea a place in your life does
> not mean your life will fold in on itself like a house of
> cards. I imagine that it also informs your relationships
> with others, both intimates and strangers, with the
> realization that all lives are houses of cards, just waiting
> for the right circumstances to cause a collapse. And
> hopefully you can see that collapse is neither totally bad
> nor necessarily permanent.
>
They no longer serve because they are no longer useful. Usefulness is a
big thing with me - I'm a function over form person, immensely so. I've
been taking stock of my constructs, trying to force the ones I no longer
need away. A few have gone the way of the dodo. A few remain. Such is
the nature of things - anything worth doing requires effort; nothing
worth doing should come 100% easily 100% of the time.
> It is the nature of the human ego to strive for
> self-preservation. Ego is a tool of the mind, with no
> physical existence, whose purpose is to drive us toward the
> Light. It's job is to be the glue that holds the
> non-corporeal together and binds it to the earthly body.
> That which has to do with self, identity, individuality,
> one's unique point in time and space, is all the realm and
> work of ego. But 'ego' is a mental construct, a tool toward
> growth. And the fact that ego also has to do with
> self-preservation, hunger, desire, pride, shame, anger,
> competition, comparison, envy, jealousy, suspicion, fear,
> and many other complications that have 'self' at its root,
> this can result in crossed wires and greater ignorance.
> Ego, applied correctly, will move us forward; ego,
> mishandled, will dig us deeper into ignorance.
>
One of these days we'll have a thread about the Est movement. It's only
a matter of time.
> Andrew: you have an experience under your belt that weakens
> your ego-born fears. While none of us ever acts completely
> ego-free or ego-complicated, it is available to us to act
> with ego >advising< instead of >ruling<. Another gift of
> ego is courage, and we can use that as a tool against ego
> itself. Ego gives us fear (to caution and preserve us)
> while holding courage behind its back (to allow us to move
> beyond fear instead of be ruled be it). It's getting beyond
> our comfort zone that tempers us and makes us strong. It's
> getting beyond our comfort zone that allows us to expand out
> experiences, consciousness, and world.
>
Weakens the fears, yes. You have no idea, however, how many fears
remain. Since the spell came to fruition, the one phrase I have used
more often than any other has been "I'm sorry". Over and over and over
again. To the point where a few people in meatspace existence are ready
to slap me for saying it so often, Joanna included. The biggest fear
that remains is of royally, irrevocably f*cking up everything. It'll
take a tonne of work to fix that fear. I have the courage to know it's
just a stupid fear, and the hope to know that I can triumph over it, two
things that, a month ago, I did not have at all.
> I know that first time through is scary and hard and
> difficult, but it is the proof that helps us get through
> ever after. You've been blessed, Andrew, and it was
> entirely in your own hands and of your own doing. Just
> remember it's only a first step, and that every time is a
> first step of its own, with paralysing fears and no
> assurances and something new to learn or re-learn in the
> process. It is not the love that has come to you that is
> the real blessing, but the experience of punching holes in
> your constructs and finding out there is More.
>
Heh. I see the love and the experience of finding out there is More as
so intertwined that I cannot separate one from the other at all. I
simply don't see where one ends and the other begins. I don't think
there's even a reason to *try*.
> You now know there are limits to any POV, any construct, any
> fear. As long as you maintain that awareness, though fear
> is just as terrifying and the devil you know seems more
> acceptable than the devil you don't know, you can still get
> past the challenge and act upon your True Will. You are
> becoming aware that there is Choice. That is a true
> blessing.
>
> How long did it take? How long to practice magick, read the
> literature, discuss daily with people in this ng and
> elsewhere, mull over what you experienced and process it,
> apply >outside< the cast circle what you've learned? With a
> calling and an intuitive 'in', how long before you began to
> Get It? "Heyduh" expects to Get It in a week; what do you
> think of that?
>
Um... (thinks back) five years of studying Wicca, 19 years before that
of mulling over past experience and processing it. To be honest, I
didn't even try a spell for the first year of being Wiccan - I was too
afraid of being smoted by The Powers That Be. Heyduh thinks he can
master Witchcraft in a week. That is, in a word, hubris. It's
chutzpah. It's going to get him royally screwed one of these days. I
don't want to be around when it happens. Heck, to be honest, I want to
be as far away from him as possible when it happens. In a concrete and
steel bunker with Joanna with me. With a year's supply of food and
water and a shotgun. Just in case. Shrapnel and all that. You understand.
> Not long ago you were crazy to get past the riddles and the
> convoluted speech; you wanted it done. Does it make a
> little more sense now? There was a wall in your mind,
> something treated by you as solid and immoveable (and might
> as well be, so long as you believed it), that finally
> shifted. The Tarot card that addresses the fear is the Nine
> of Wands. Through the self-preservation instincts of Ego,
> all these defensive rods are set firmly in the ground
> (grounded will, grounded fears), forming a fortress against
> all comers, friend or foe. How like a jail a fortress
> becomes. Your awareness grew until the reality of your
> cramped space hit home, and you broke free. Just remember
> that we break free of one small space to find freedom in a
> slightly larger space; it's a lifetime work.
>
Saturday night, I learned that She has a divine sense of humor. I also
learned that it is entirely possible for my brain to parallel process
two pieces of unrelated (and I mean *extremely* unrelated) pieces of
information. Since the spell came to fruition, my brain has constantly
been following every possible path of thought, every train of logic, it
encounters as far as it can go. I've come to some scary dark alleys a
few times. Other times, I am enlightened and just laugh long and hard
at what I uncover. The fortresses are constantly growing larger in
size. Today, for instance. Mom was working on a legal brief about a
complex (and dizzyingly bizarre) case. I read it over (as I do with any
brief she writes from home that she describes as "ascerbic" - they're
always a fun read and always include the words "chutzpah" and "beyond
cavil". Always) and came to a point in the brief where she basically
dropped the H-Bomb on the defense's fact pattern via a fundamental
dilemma in their argument. My mind, however, was not content to let the
dilemma rest. I followed it through to its conclusion, all the way back
to my logic textbook, and back to the brief. A month ago, I'd have left
it at face value. Now, I'm going as far as I can go in my thoughts
until I reach dead-ends, at which point I mentally bookmark where I got
for later reflection. A lot has changed.
> But you now have this key. How long to even begin to
> recognise it? How long to develop your vision, to be able
> to see it? How glorious that it >can< be found, even
> without a clue as to how to find it, what form it is to
> take, where to look, how to recognise it. The secret is
> that you can't recognise a tool until you fully understand
> the use it is to be put to. The secret is that the tool is
> hidden in plain sight; it was >always< available. No one
> hid it from you but you (you and your fears). If we told
> you (and actually we all told you), you wouldn't believe us.
> It's an initiatory process we all go through and will go
> through again. Remember that it's ego's job to put
> cohesiveness into us and help us endure; we revisit
> challenges over and over, even though we >think< we've put
> any one of them to bed. Humility is your friend.
>
Heh. I've been thanking Aphrodite every night for all that she has
taught and all that she is teaching me. Humility and humbleness are
definitely my friends.
<Snip>
> Belief moves mountains, cuts through even the firmest and
> most stubborn construct of the mind. Magick is part and
> parcel of belief.
>
> Andrew, you moved a mountain in yourself. You have reason
> to feel blessed beyond the simple result of finding love.
> You've a learned the lesson in looking past your own
> definitions and constructs. I hope this continues for you,
> because then you will be able to fulfil more closely your
> True Will.
>
Every revelation is a blessing onto itself, 'Thenie. Every moment is a
new revelation. Thus every moment is a blessing. This is a great
lesson to learn.
> As for "heyduh"...I don't think he Gets It yet. I'm just
> not hearing it in him yet.
>
> -'Thenie
> <pardon second posting>
>
I don't think Heyduh will get it for quite some time.
I have a theory that we learn the lessons we are meant to learn
precisely *when* we are meant to learn them. When we incarnate in our
current lives, we choose which lessons to learn. We learn when we are
meant to learn. He will Get It when the time is right. And, judging by
what he is doing now, it will hurt. A lot. I only hope that it doesn't
destroy him or anyone around him.
Jani
"heyduh" <hey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148042421.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've heard SO much about how bad love-spells are, and I should not do
> it, blah blah ... but have not heard one explanation of how exactly it
> is going to hurt me.
>
OK, you've heard all about the rule-of-three and the appeals to ethics;
let's look at it from the practical angle.
Point one: since she doesn't want to be with you of her own volition, and
that's an integral part of what-she-is, what you have straight off is
someone who is no longer the person you wanted in the first place. And it's
not going to get better; if you admire a tiger in the wild, drugging and
caging it to make it "tame" removes all the qualities you admired about it
to begin with.
Point two: since she is not following her own nature, but your spell, you
will have to keep reinforcing it. If it wears off, or you get bored and
decide to remove it (do you even know how to do that?) what do you have?
Someone who is now back to their senses and suddenly aware they've spent the
past however-long doing something they did not want to do. Something they
took deliberate steps to avoid, in fact.
So, that's going to be a very pissed-off person. It's also going to be a
pissed-off person with friends, probably friends who've been worried about
the person's weird behaviour and inexplicable association with someone they
did not want to be with. You are now in line for what some might call a
karmic backlash, and what I'd call a damn good hiding. Doesn't matter
whether you did it by spellwork, hypnosis or spiking her drink, all she and
everyone else will see is the overriding of another's free will for your own
selfish ends. You might get kicked magically, you might get kicked
physically, but kicked you will be. And hard. Remember that tiger? Cage door
open, tranquiliser dart worn off, and all the rest of the herd padding out
of the bushes - I wouldn't like to be in your shoes, pal.
Point three: if you try and stave this off by keeping her enthralled, you
have someone who is not the real person you wanted, who you can't get rid of
without laying yourself open to the repercussions described above, who you
don't want to keep because she's only a mindless shadow of the real person,
and who's constantly going to be *there*, dangling about, every time you try
and start a relationship with someone else. You're at the other end of that
leash you put on her, remember. You tied her to you, and she is going to
stay there, always looming up and getting between you and whatever you want
to do now you've realised your mistake.
So you can't let her off the leash and you can't keep her either.
Now multiply that by years ... and years ... and years. Why not just sling a
dead albatross round your neck and have done with it?
I get the *very* strong impression that you're dismissing a lot of what
others are telling you because either (a) you don't really believe in the
rule-of-three/ karma/ law of returns, (b) you think the people saying 'back
off' are just wimps, or (c) you've become so obsessed with thralling this
woman that you're no longer capable of rational thought.
In my opinion, (c) is your big issue here. You should be giving exactly the
same amount of attention to potential ramifications and outcomes as you
would to embarking on any mundane work which is going to have serious,
long-term effects. Business contract, buying a house, major surgery - you
don't do that kind of thing on the basis of a week's cursory study and a few
exchanges on Usenet. Spellwork is no different.
Maybe you don't really believe in spellwork at all, and you're operating on
the principle of 'if it doesn't work, no harm done; if it does, I get what I
want'. But you can only establish that by doing it - and *that is why you
look at every single one of the possible outcomes before you start*.
Including the ones you'd prefer to shrug off and disregard, because those
are generally the ones you need to look at the most closely. You don't have
any interest in empathising with your target; no problem - given the nature
of the spell, that's hardly surprising. But consider, rationally, what a
royal fuck-up you'll be making of your *own* life. Do you really like the
smell of rotting albatross that much?
Jani
Jani
"moonspecks" <new_coun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0e871e8c8b4b784a...@localhost.talkaboutreligion.com...
>
> Why it will bring only "unhappy results?"
> Why wouldn't we be able to live happily ever after?
>
> Yes, she chose her life, but what if she chose a life that will bring her
> misery? I know you might say that it's her choice and she will suffer the
> consquences, but I WANT to be there for her. If something bad happens to
> her or if she gets herself into trouble, I WANT to be there for her and
> that's all because I LOVE her and I CARE abour her.
>
> I don't want to control her. I just want us to be together.
And what is stopping you from loving and caring about her now? Why does it
have to be conditional on her being in a relationship with you?
>
> Yes, I believe if the magick works, then it's God's will cause nothing can
> happen without God's will and I mean NOTHING. For example, I can get
> candles, put them in a circle and do magick for, let say, a year. The
> magick will not work if God does not want it to work. However, if God
> wants it to work, then it's God's will. Yes, I worked it, I set it up and
> I put my energy into it, but how do you expect somebody to get what they
> want without working hard for it? Yes, my friend, I have to work hard for
> what I want, I have to put my energy into it, I have to invest myself into
> it and with God's help, I will get my results. If God does not want me to
> get what I want, then so be it. I accept whatever he gives me cause I
> have strong faith in God. However, I believe if you want something, you
> have to work hard for it cause God does not help you if you don't work
> hard for what you want.
So you "do magick" but it's actually just the same as "praying to God", and
it's down to God whether this "magick" works or not. Have you ever
considered taking up christianity?
Jani
sabracadabra
>as far as I know, I have NOT done any spell yet. do you mean
>researching/reading/asking questions is the spell?
In effect Yes, you are already pouring time and energy into the
effort. You may not be casting the actual spell at this point per se
but even subconsciously you are already raising the energy for it and
setting your will to the task. Your very questions and manners of
responding show that you have already made your mind up and are now
merely seeking to know what the repercussions of the actions will be.
The first domino has already fallen.
SabracadabrA
"I breathe for A Living..."
joneko
question will even read it, but I'm putting it out there.
I have *been* in a relationship like this before -- been the equivalent
of the victim. You do not want to do that to someone you supposedly
care about. It is cruel, and unnecessary.
If you really want to be there for this person, moonspecks, please,
just be there for her. Don't make her part of your life in any larger
way just to be part of hers. Sometimes the guardian angels who protect
us best are friends, not lovers, and sometimes they are simply people
who at the time were on the sidelines. You will be doing a world of
good for her by being there for her selflessly, and she will remember
it later.
Creating an environment in which this person unwillingly cannot live
without you is cruelty. Creating an environment in which this person
honestly believes that they willingly cannot live without you -- to the
most literal degree -- is unforgiveable.
As for the repurcussions, they DO go both ways: the target suffers for
the pain they have caused others in their life over an unhealthy
relationship that they could not or would not see affected more than
just themselves, and the pursuer...mine has lost virtually all their
friends in the years since the incident, and nearly wrecked their own
relationship several times. In short, they are miserable. (And do not
think I say this happily; I still feel some pang of guilt.)
As far as I know, there wasn't any magick involved in this particular
incident -- just mind games. Now put this to your story, with magick
used to capture this person's heart and soul. How could you be
forgiven, knowing what you're doing?
Even if you don't believe in Karma (because it doesn't *sound* like you
do) or the Rule of 3, try to step back, just for a moment, and look at
it logically.
You may say that, though you are essentially drawing this person into a
relationship in which she is completely dependent on you, it is out of
*good* will, and if she thinks, because of the spell, that she wants to
be this way, how can it be bad?
It is far worse if she honestly believes this is what she wants.
By magickally handcuffing her to you this way, with her believing it
was her own choice, you are handicapping her possibly for the rest of
her life. When it ends -- and yes, this will end eventually,
especially with the means by which you are going about it -- she will
be lost and desolate. She will have no understanding of what has
happened. She will not be able to live on her own. If she cannot have
you she will either fall apart or go from person to person looking for
someone to hold her up now that she has been left with this gaping hole
that she believes is *her* fault -- because she believes this was *all*
her doing, the good and the bad. Her relationships with her friends
and family will suffer. It could be many many years before she is able
to maintain a healthy relationship, of any kind, with anyone; when one
is inexplicably suddenly drawn to someone they swore to themselves they
were not drawn to, it throws their whole world upside down, especially
when considering *any* consequences of the relationship. Chances are,
the relationships she will pursue afterwards, if she does not shut
herself away from the rest of the world in an attempt to keep from ever
feeling that pain again, will all be shallow, meaningless, or abusive
in one way or another.
Love is supposed to be giving someone so much of yourself that they
could destroy you and knowing (or hoping) that they won't.
You are not giving anything of yourself to her, and she is not *giving*
anything of herself to you -- you are unfairly coaxing it, since the
idea that you are forcing anything from her, taking it from her, is so
abbhorant to your delicate senses that you can't seem to comprehend
that this is what you are doing; maybe if one uses gentler terminology
and plays with semantics you'll get it.
I was lucky -- I found Andrew. (I've spent the last twenty minutes
typing and retyping this little graf trying to explain how much that
has done for me, but obviously I *still* cannot put these things into
words.) He loves me more than I can comprehend anyone being able to
love me, and there are still the ocassional mental hurdles from that
one experience that, by the pursuer's count, ended three years ago. I
think sometimes that it's only because of him that I'm still in one
piece; and do you know how that started? Read back in the archives.
He didn't romantically pursue me or try to pull me in with any spells
targeting me; he was there for me, even if at the time we both believed
nothing more would come of it. He was there for me nonetheless,
because the basis of any romantic relationship is friendship above all
things, a mutual love and respect for one another, the willingness to
be there for them *even* when you may not get what you are seeking in
return.
If either of you want to counter with the idea that, because you're in
love, you yourself can't live without this person, take a pause. Is it
at all frustrating or frightening or upsetting, that feeling -- the
feeling that you cannot live without someone? The definition of love I
gave above, is that frightening, the idea of giving someone that much
control over you?
Imagine how scary it could be for someone who had that choice made for
them. Imagine that they cannot do anything without first wondering
what you would think of it, cannot say anything without wondering if
you would want them to say it, that they judge every move they make by
what they think your reaction would be, that every emotion or thought
they have they censor based on what they think you would feel about it.
That is *not* what love is, and do you really want to wish that on
someone you're trying to help, someone that you want to be happy?
If they were not happy with you, gentlemen, they will not BE happy with
you. It is imperative that you get this through your heads. Then, you
can make a choice -- you can be there for them as a friend, with your
feelings genuine even if unreturned.
And, once you remember why you are doing this -- that they do not
*want* to be with you in any other sense, and will not be happy that
way -- your efforts, because you know full well the truth of your
actions, are nothing more than vindictive.
There is no reason why you should be able to pursue this while claiming
ignorance. May there be mercy for your victims.
'Thenie
<snip great words>
Well said, Jani, well said.
-'Thenie
Jani
"'Thenie" <mtn_...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vflcg.5050$qn2.3096@trnddc04...
Thanks. (Group, please note, Thenie and I are in agreement. If you look out
your window, the flying pigs will be passing any minute now :-)
Seriously, though, where spellwork is concerned I'm a pragmatist; if you're
going to do something which is completely based on self-interest, that's
fine. No reason why you should believe in or subscribe to anyone else's
religious/ moral/ ethical principles, or circumscribe your actions because
of them, after all. But if that's the route you wish to take, then it's also
part of that same self-interest to only take action which you are absolutely
sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing this point, in
spades.
Jani
'Thenie
> "'Thenie" wrote...
> > "Jani" wrote...
> > <snip great words>
> >
> > Well said, Jani, well said.
>
agreement. If you look out
> your window, the flying pigs will be passing any minute
now :-)
That explains the oinking noise I've been hearing...
> Seriously, though, where spellwork is concerned I'm a
pragmatist; if you're
> going to do something which is completely based on
self-interest, that's
> fine. No reason why you should believe in or subscribe to
anyone else's
> religious/ moral/ ethical principles, or circumscribe your
actions because
> of them, after all. But if that's the route you wish to
take, then it's also
> part of that same self-interest to only take action which
you are absolutely
> sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing
this point, in
> spades.
And I'm a pragmatist as well, just that I can see how
religious/moral/ethical principles describe the same thing
as what a pragmatist may describe in other terms; it's
semantics to me. I respect those who are effective, even if
I disagree with how they go about it or their reasons or
methods concerning the action; that is, I respect the fact
they >are< effective, though I may not respect the change
they have instituted or attempt to institute.
That we agree on a thing, though we come from different
directions to do so, seems to me a confirmation of the
universality of the stance. It makes it appear ever more
likely to be the truth. My logic, your logic, different
approaches, but it is mutually agreed as valid; must really
be something to it.
-'Thenie
Baird Stafford
Read Phorbin's contributions to this thread. S/he spoke of people who
were bound together years in future because one of them had cast "love
Magic(k)" and, now that they absolutely hated one another, were unable
to undo the Magic(k).
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> On the other hand, following this thread as an observe, cause i find the
> subject of 'spell work' interesting it occurs to me to ask, and pardon
> my redundancy if this has already been addressed in this thread, but,
> how do people feel about 'generic love spells'
> A spell directed at the gods/universe & designed to facilitate the
> meeting of the beloved?
No problem, as long as that is it's only Intent, and it doesn't aim
actually to force someone to love the person doing the Working.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Yes, I believe if the magick works, then it's God's will cause nothing can
> happen without God's will and I mean NOTHING. For example, I can get
> candles, put them in a circle and do magick for, let say, a year. The
> magick will not work if God does not want it to work. However, if God
> wants it to work, then it's God's will. Yes, I worked it, I set it up and
> I put my energy into it, but how do you expect somebody to get what they
> want without working hard for it? Yes, my friend, I have to work hard for
> what I want, I have to put my energy into it, I have to invest myself into
> it and with God's help, I will get my results. If God does not want me to
> get what I want, then so be it. I accept whatever he gives me cause I
> have strong faith in God. However, I believe if you want something, you
> have to work hard for it cause God does not help you if you don't work
> hard for what you want.
Problem: Magic(k) is NOT prayer. Magic(k) requires *your* energies to
bring results. Prayer requires "God's" energies to make it work.
Magic(k) is relies on *your* choices. Prayer relies on "God's" choices.
According to the doctrine of many Christian sects, Magic(k) can even
work in opposition to "God's" will.
And if the Magic(k) does work despite what "God" wills, then where are
you?
<snip>
Dan Holzman
> Well, I think I'm in a situation like heyduh
>
> I casted a love spell to bring back the woman that I love. I got 12 red
> candles and I put them in a circle. I meditated for 20 minutes per day
> for 12 days. I wrote my wishes on a piece of paper and I put in the
> middle of the circle as well.
>
> I really hope that it works although there is a member here "Thenie" said
> he/she hopes that it doesn't.
I'll go one better: I don't hope it won't work, I'm telling you it
won't work. I'll even explain why:
I am the person who has the final say what magic effects me. You are
the person who has the final say what magic effects you. Your ex is the
person who has the final say what magic effects her. It's that simple
-- defense if far easier than offense.
She's not only determined her will where you're concerned, she's enacted
it by getting the hell away from you. Against determination like that,
your papers and candles are like pissing upwind.
You know what happens when you piss upwind, right? It comes right back
and smacks you in the face. In this case, all this obsessing and
focussing on her is just getting you more hung up on the fact that you
don't and won't have her. At the end of they day, she's right where she
is, and you're hurting even more over losing more than you ever had.
> I love that girl a lot and I wanna help her cause she had a rough life
> with the law and she has low self-esteem.
Bullshit. Your behavior is not the behavior of someone who loves, it's
the behavior of someone who wants to control. Perhaps to play "white
knight" or somesuch. If you loved her, you'd respect her decision and
turn your attention onto yourself.
This is the second reason your magick will not work: The first
cornerstone of power is knowledge, and you do not know yourself. When
you don't know where you are, you can't get where you want to be.
> It has been around 18 or 19 days since I've completed the spell, nothing
> happened yet.
You don't say.
> I also see magick as "praying to God." If you pray to God and God grants
> you your wish, why is that a bad thing?
That's reason number three your magick will not work: magick is all
about responsibility. That you can even ask a question like this shows
that you're trying to push responsibility for what you want off of your
own shoulders and onto the Gods. That doesn't fly.
If you want to spare yourelf a world of hurt, turn away from this
course. Instead, focus on making yourself into someone who will be a
good partner. It doesn't guarantee that she will come back to you --
she is her own agent, and you have no right to her or any other
particular person -- but it does make it more likely that someone who
does come along will see you as a person to partner with instead of
running away from.
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
> You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
> did the magick, the spell is going to work?
Magic is a tool, just like any other; correctly applied, it has effects,
just like a hammer. It doesn't mystically fail if it's not 'meant to
be' or anything like that -- its effects are more oblique than driving
nails, but it is an application of force to attempt to cause an effect.
There is no "If I'm going to hit my thumb with this, God will divert
it". You swing the hammer; maybe without enough strength, maybe without
enough aim, maybe at something that isn't going to budge to that sort of
force, but *the hammer is still swung*. And one has to take
responsibility for the choice to try to apply that tool, not fob it off
on a god with the micromanagement responsibility to armourplate your
thumbs, keep you from hammering screws, or otherwise protect you from
the consequences of your will.
- Darkhawk, tools are tools
--
Darkhawk - H. A. Nicoll - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
They are one person, they are two alone
They are three together, they are for each other
- "Helplessly Hoping", Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young
'Thenie
Better said than I ever could.
-'Thenie
'Thenie
Very nice response. I can add nothing further to it than my
agreement.
-'Thenie
-A.
> Thenie,
>
> 2 comments:
>
> When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
> You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
> did the magick, the spell is going to work?
Any spell that is *repeated* enough times will *eventually* work. The
value of "enough times" varies wildly depending on what the spell is
supposed to do. Please note that "enough times" may be a value that is
greater than your own lifespan - there are some things that will *not*
happen in your lifetime.
>
> Then you said, I'm responsible even if the spell does not work. Why would
> I be responsible for something that didn't work? Yes, I tried to do it,
> but it didn't work. How am I robbing her if the spell didn't work and she
> is not with me?
>
If you try and shoot someone to death, and they live, you are still
responsible for trying to kill them - it's called "attempted murder".
The penal system has a whole bunch of "attempted X" crimes such as
attempted murder, attempted larceny, attempted burglary, etc., etc.,
etc. to make people responsible for actions that do not succeed.
Attempted murder is still a crime. So too, therefore, is attempted
slavery, which is exactly what you will be karmically guilty of if your
spell(s) (and I pray that the plural in this case is not necessary) fail.
> Are you saying if I (or any human being for that matter) does a mistake,
> then he or she is doomed?
>
Not doomed in the apocalyptic sense, no. Doomed to face the
consequences? Yes. Every action, from waking up in the morning to
going to bed at night and everything in between, has consequences.
*EVERY* action. And we must face the consequences. It's called
cause-and-effect. You do something, it has consequences. Period.
Simple logic, there, logic you seem to fail to grasp.
-A.
> Thenie,
>
> 2 comments:
>
> When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
> You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
> did the magick, the spell is going to work?
Any spell that is *repeated* enough times will *eventually* work. The
value of "enough times" varies wildly depending on what the spell is
supposed to do. Please note that "enough times" may be a value that is
greater than your own lifespan - there are some things that will *not*
happen in your lifetime.
>
> Then you said, I'm responsible even if the spell does not work. Why
would
> I be responsible for something that didn't work? Yes, I tried to do it,
> but it didn't work. How am I robbing her if the spell didn't work
and she
> is not with me?
>
If you try and shoot someone to death, and they live, you are still
responsible for trying to kill them - it's called "attempted murder".
The penal system has a whole bunch of "attempted X" crimes such as
attempted murder, attempted larceny, attempted burglary, etc., etc.,
etc. to make people responsible for actions that do not succeed.
Attempted murder is still a crime. So too, therefore, is attempted
slavery, which is exactly what you will be karmically guilty of if your
spell(s) (and I pray that the plural in this case is not necessary) fail.
> Are you saying if I (or any human being for that matter) does a mistake,
> then he or she is doomed?
>
Not doomed in the apocalyptic sense, no. Doomed to face the
consequences? Yes. Every action, from waking up in the morning to
going to bed at night and everything in between, has consequences.
*EVERY* action. And we must face the consequences. It's called
cause-and-effect. You do something, it has consequences. Period.
Simple logic, there, logic you seem to fail to grasp.
Blessed Be,
-A.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
phorbin
@localhost.talkaboutreligion.com>, new_coun...@yahoo.com says...
We are all doomed....
A spell not working is an intent/action unfulfilled seeking a place to
fulfill itself. Since you are intimately connected with the spell (being
the spellcaster) it will work _in some way_ on you even if it does work
on her. If it can't work on her, it will still work on you. --The
experiences either way are always informative but can be seriously
unpleasant.
You are assuming that, "If it doesn't work, then it goes away."
It doesn't. It can't. It won't.
I spent nearly 25 years with my mentor working at, among other things,
getting over myself and my selfish intent and to try to learn that,
where I can't get over it, to recognize it and face it as unflinchingly,
as I can and choose to do nothing about it.
Let me give you two quick examples of things that did work.
I am one of the screwups I mentioned though the following relates to a
series of spells that worked. (mine tend to work... it's genetic)
I linked my life to a bad relationship that took 13 (exactly) years to
dissolve and another 12 to restore myself. It was a misguided attempt to
keep "my soul mate." --She was a good person. *We* were a bad match. ---
I was IN LOVE, young, stupid, very full of myself and thought I knew
what's what and what was best and *right.* And to not put too fine a
point on it, I was too full of myself and stupid and young to realize
that I was wrong (get it?). ___I've known people 50+ who have been as
dumb, btw.___
I'm not saying exactly the same will happen to you, but it's worth
noting that 25 years is a substantial segment of any life. I had a
mentor to help me through the passage... You do not.
My sister, OTOH took a course in magic, cast a spell to try to save her
marriage, it bound her husband to her in that they are still married and
interact even after 10 years apart. Worse however, it bound her to him
and suspended her life's course.
This was done against advice... but she knew better.
There are reasons why you are getting the responses you are... I am
being bluntly direct because I don't have the time I used to and you
don't seem to be getting any of the message. There is a chance, with the
it coming back to you from so many directions that you will get a clue.
Let me propose one of the early concepts my mentor tried to get
across...
"Even doing the right thing, if your heart isn't in the right place, is
doing the wrong thing."
All the evidence I've seen so far points to your heart being in the
wrong place... Everything I've seen so far suggests you're too full of
what you want to recognize that just maybe there's something wrong with
what you intend.
Myself, I find your apparent density at least troubling and at worst
annoying. Either way you cut it, I wish you no ill, but I do wish the
target of your obsession every protection from what you intend.
Do think for a moment about the nature and experience of the people
giving you feedback.
heyduh
>part of that same self-interest to only take action which you are absolutely
>sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing this point, in
>spades.
Janie (or anyone)
can you show me how to make it so it doesn't damage me?
Jani
> "Jani" wrote...
>> "'Thenie" wrote...
>> > "Jani" wrote...
>> > <snip great words>
>> >
>> > Well said, Jani, well said.
>>
>> Thanks. (Group, please note, Thenie and I are in
> agreement. If you look out
>> your window, the flying pigs will be passing any minute
> now :-)
>
> That explains the oinking noise I've been hearing...
It's the flapping of wings which gives it away :)
>
>> Seriously, though, where spellwork is concerned I'm a
> pragmatist; if you're
>> going to do something which is completely based on
> self-interest, that's
>> fine. No reason why you should believe in or subscribe to
> anyone else's
>> religious/ moral/ ethical principles, or circumscribe your
> actions because
>> of them, after all. But if that's the route you wish to
> take, then it's also
>> part of that same self-interest to only take action which
> you are absolutely
>> sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing
> this point, in
>> spades.
>
> And I'm a pragmatist as well, just that I can see how
> religious/moral/ethical principles describe the same thing
> as what a pragmatist may describe in other terms; it's
> semantics to me.
Hmm, well, up to a point it's semantics. There's a difference between saying
"don't do that, $deity will smack you" and saying "don't do that, getting
smacked is an inevitable consequence".
I respect those who are effective, even if
> I disagree with how they go about it or their reasons or
> methods concerning the action; that is, I respect the fact
> they >are< effective, though I may not respect the change
> they have instituted or attempt to institute.
Yep, agreed. And that's where the 'ethics debate' comes in, because the
issue isn't really magic, per se; it's what constitutes the "proper" use of
power.
>
> That we agree on a thing, though we come from different
> directions to do so, seems to me a confirmation of the
> universality of the stance. It makes it appear ever more
> likely to be the truth. My logic, your logic, different
> approaches, but it is mutually agreed as valid; must really
> be something to it.
Any approach which says "look at the consequences" has something to it :)
Heyduh wanted to know how it would affect *him*, not his target, and he
clearly wasn't interested in morality based on religious belief. Fine by me.
You don't need to invoke karma, or rules of three, or gods, to work out when
you're tying your own shoelaces together.
Jani
Dan Holzman
>
> can you show me how to make it so it doesn't damage me?
Why is this not getting through to you?
There is no way to shoot yourself in the foot such that it doesn't
damage you.
If you wish to bring love into your life, make yourself into a person to
whom love would flow.
-A.
> moonspecks <new_coun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
>>You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
>>did the magick, the spell is going to work?
>
>
> Magic is a tool, just like any other; correctly applied, it has effects,
> just like a hammer. It doesn't mystically fail if it's not 'meant to
> be' or anything like that -- its effects are more oblique than driving
> nails, but it is an application of force to attempt to cause an effect.
>
> There is no "If I'm going to hit my thumb with this, God will divert
> it". You swing the hammer; maybe without enough strength, maybe without
> enough aim, maybe at something that isn't going to budge to that sort of
> force, but *the hammer is still swung*. And one has to take
> responsibility for the choice to try to apply that tool, not fob it off
> on a god with the micromanagement responsibility to armourplate your
> thumbs, keep you from hammering screws, or otherwise protect you from
> the consequences of your will.
>
> - Darkhawk, tools are tools
>
>
This is brilliant. This one goes into the archive of great posts I have
saved on my hard drive.
Blessed Be,
-A.
--
'Thenie
>
> Thenie,
>
> 2 comments:
>
> When I said that the magick might work or not, you said
"sure it will.
> You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that
just because I
> did the magick, the spell is going to work?
>
> Then you said, I'm responsible even if the spell does not
work. Why would
> I be responsible for something that didn't work? Yes, I
tried to do it,
> but it didn't work.
Having a thought will change something in you, whether you
act on the thought or not. Allow or make the thought take
root in you, and you create an expectation and an attitude;
attitudes definitely change you and unintentionally impact
the things (and people and situations) around you. Apply
the thought or attitude in an intentional way, act on it,
and you will definitely impact and cause change in the
things (people, situations) around you.
Entertaining that thought in any sort of serious way has
repercussions of responsibility; the change in you is a
result of your entertaining the thought. You have choice
about the thoughts you entertain, make a place for; you can
dismiss it and give it nothing to sink roots into. This is
elementary magick in its simplest form.
Allowing the thought to evolve into an expectation or
attitude, that has deeper repercussions and greater
responsibility. You still have choice to change it, to
dismantle it, to reject it. It does impact people and it
colors your perspective, closing what could have been an
open mind, capable of letting in truth. You have
responsibility for the clarity of your mind and the
repercussions from it that others are forced to bear. Even
if you do not consciously enforce your attitude on others.
Act to press your POV (your attitude and expectations) on
others, and you inarguably have responsibility for the
impact.
A spell is an exercise in pressing your attitude, your
perspective, your desire, upon your environment. If the
target is not just the general environment but specifically
an individual (or specifically identified group of
individuals), then the repercussions will be just as
personal as the targeting.
But to do a spell requires having a thought and then letting
it take root before even acting upon it. Even if the spell
fails, regardless of why, you create impacts upon your
environment (and anyone or any event present in it) and you
bear responsibility for those impacts.
Add to it the reaction of others impacted by your thoughts
and actions. You being a domino effect of inducing stray
thoughts and rooted attitudes and responsive actions. It
becomes chaos very quickly. And while others'
responsibility is not at issue, your responsibility in
feeding the action, in passing it on and allowing it to
impact others, remains.
A failed spell does not die in a vacuum; the caster remains
to fester and affect others, even if the only thing tainted
is the caster's own life.
> How am I robbing her if the spell didn't work and she
> is not with me?
I didn't say a failed spell would rob her or harm her. What
I am saying is that a failed spell does not erase
repercussions for you, in >your< life.
> Are you saying if I (or any human being for that matter)
does a mistake,
> then he or she is doomed?
If you drop an apple, it is "doomed" to fall. If you don't
pay the bills, you are "doomed" to be evicted or have your
utilities shut off or other services terminated or
suspended. If you don't lay down and relax, you are
"doomed" to not fall asleep and or dream.
Repercussions are not 'punishments'; they are resultants.
If consequence 'B' invariably results from doing/not doing
'A', then it doesn't matter if you are aware of the
consequences or not; it isn't a punishment, just 'education'
when you see what 'A' or lack of 'A' leads to. But if you
set 'A' in motion, you are responsible for 'B' when it
occurs, whether it was your intent or not. It's a
mechanical function, and objective.
Polarities such as good/bad, harm/help, punishment/reward,
are all value judgements, and as such are subjective. Only
you know what is a real help or a punishment to you. And
you cannot know exactly what would be 'good' for another.
It's subjective and so individually determined. Things like
"eat the cheese in the trap, and the trap will snap down and
break your neck" is objective cause-effect fact. The trap
springing is not punishment, just the consequences. The one
placing the trap bears responsibility just as the one killed
in the trap does; both had choice in the matter for creating
a deadly situation. How much responsibility would vary
according to the degree of caprice or necessity both parties
brought to the situation.
'Mistake' is a subjective assessment. It is a subjective
label for an objective action that took place in fact. And
the action, regardless of the intent, will initiate
consequences. Any action, however you judge it
subjectively, has repercussions, whether you are aware of
them or not (and we cannot know >all< of the repercussions
of any one act).
So the answer to the paraphrasing of your question ("Are you
saying if I (or any human being for that matter) does a
mistake, then he or she is doomed?") is yes; if you initiate
an action, you bear the responsibility for it (because you
always had a choice to act or not). If you choose the
placement and time and action of letting go of an apple, you
are responsible for what happens to and with that apple. Is
that concept too hard to grasp?
-'Thenie
-A.
No. Hell no. Not in a trillion years. You can't disentangle yourself
from cause-and-effect.
Besides, you're missing the point.
Jani was talking about doing self-interest based magick in a way that
there are no negative personal repercussions. The first and most
important step in doing this is doing magick that does not damage anyone
*else*.
What you want to do *WOULD* damage someone else. Thus, the
repercussions *WOULD* damage *YOU*. You can't commit the perfect crime
because it doesn't exist, Heyduh.
We will *NOT* help you commit magical slavery and magical rape. Ever.
You want to enslave. You want to rape. There is no way to do that
without it coming back to bite you on the ass. Can't be done. Period.
We will not be complicit in your crimes. Stop asking.
Heyduh, I am tempted, *SERIOUSLY* tempted, to violate my own personal
ethics right now and bind you from doing this spell. I am sure others
here are probably at the least a little bit tempted to consider the
same. I am also seriously tempted to try to magically find your
"victim" and do everything in my power to teach her how to defend
herself from you in ways that will render everything you try painfully
(for you) worthless. I seriously want to find her and teach her how to
rebound every inch, every iota, of energy you send at her so it comes
back at you a thousand-fold.
I won't, however. I am not who you should worry about. Worry about
yourself and your perverse need to control, your perverse need to rape.
We have said this over and over and over again.
We will *NOT* teach you how to do this. We will *NOT* teach you how to
evade the karmic whoppin' you're going to receive. So shut the f*ck up
about it and stop asking. The answer is *NO*!
'Thenie
> "Jani" wrote
Easily. Don't do it. Walk away and let it go. If things
are meant to be, then they will come about on their own; in
the meantime, don't invest any further in it.
-'Thenie
'Thenie
> heyduh wrote:
> >
> > Janie (or anyone)
> >
> > can you show me how to make it so it doesn't damage me?
> >
> Heyduh, I am tempted, *SERIOUSLY* tempted, to violate my
own personal
> ethics right now and bind you from doing this spell. I am
sure others
> here are probably at the least a little bit tempted to
consider the
> same. I am also seriously tempted to try to magically
find your
> "victim" and do everything in my power to teach her how to
defend
> herself from you in ways that will render everything you
try painfully
> (for you) worthless. I seriously want to find her and
teach her how to
> rebound every inch, every iota, of energy you send at her
so it comes
> back at you a thousand-fold.
>
> I won't, however. I am not who you should worry about.
Andrew:
I think there is strong enough feeling raised here (among
those of ability, I might add)that anyone posting a desire
or intent to cast this sort of 'love' spell (especially
"heyduh" and "moonspecks") will run up against a layer of
protection projected out to the target/victim of any spell
of that nature.
And, as has been stated several times already, the spell
will have nowhere to go but to return on the spellcaster.
And my experience is that they come back hungry and angry.
Poetic justice.
-'Thenie
-A.
> as far as I know, I have NOT done any spell yet. do you mean
> researching/reading/asking questions is the spell?
>
From the instant you start thinking about solving a problem magically
(or using magic to assist in solving a problem), you are casting the
spell. Spellwork begins the moment you *consider* using spellwork.
Since you have been trolling the newsgroups (plural - I know) for
information for about a week now, you have been devoting at least a
week's worth of energy into the spell. By the time you actually (and
unfortunately) do the spell (as I know you are far too driven and far
too blinded by your desire to rape and enslave to listen to reason -
we've told you, Heyduh, time and time again, ad nauseum, not to, but I
know you'll do it anyway as your mind is most definitely made up),
you've got a ton of energy invested in it.
By my reckoning, you've been looking for information on how to do this
spell via USENET since May 8. That's 2 weeks ago. Since you've
probably had the idea in your mind since a while before then, let's say
you've had the idea festering for a month. That's 31 days of conscious
effort and time and energy devoted to a single victim. By the time you
actually do the spell, you've got all the energy of the spell *PLUS* the
31+ days you spent researching it going into it.
You've been doing the spell for a month already. Cut your losses now.
Give up. The Gods do not like rapists, Heyduh, and you do *NOT* want to
piss them off by being one.
Jani
"-A." <andrew....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1274aia...@news.supernews.com...
> Darkhawk (H. Nicoll) wrote:
>> moonspecks <new_coun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
>>>You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
>>>did the magick, the spell is going to work?
>>
>>
>> Magic is a tool, just like any other; correctly applied, it has effects,
>> just like a hammer. It doesn't mystically fail if it's not 'meant to
>> be' or anything like that -- its effects are more oblique than driving
>> nails, but it is an application of force to attempt to cause an effect.
>>
>> There is no "If I'm going to hit my thumb with this, God will divert
>> it". You swing the hammer; maybe without enough strength, maybe without
>> enough aim, maybe at something that isn't going to budge to that sort of
>> force, but *the hammer is still swung*. And one has to take
>> responsibility for the choice to try to apply that tool, not fob it off
>> on a god with the micromanagement responsibility to armourplate your
>> thumbs, keep you from hammering screws, or otherwise protect you from
>> the consequences of your will.
>>
>> - Darkhawk, tools are tools
>>
>>
>
> This is brilliant. This one goes into the archive of great posts I have
> saved on my hard drive.
I can go one better. I'm currently reading Salmon of Doubt, and she's
*better than Adams*.
Jani, impressed.
-A.
This all operates under the unfortunate assumption that heyduh and
moonspecks will only try this *once*. If these damned fools were to
keep at this for a prolonged period of time, eventually, it saddens me
to say, their victims would weaken. Eventually, heyduh and/or
moonspecks might win. Things done in a repeated, habitual, ritual
fashion have a tendency to get results if they are repeated often enough
with enough energy and effort. I don't think heyduh or moonspecks smart
enough to walk away, and I certainly don't think them smart enough to
learn from the rebounding energy *the first time*. If they were to
persist in doing this for a prolonged period of time, they might very
well win by eroding the walls of their victims.
What must be kept in mind is the sheer mindless tenacity with which both
heyduh and moonspecks have kept at these acts of slavery. They are not
the type to cut and run after it fails the first time - these are true
believers in the idea that they are right, in the idea that they are
invincible. Give them enough opportunities to succeed, and enough rope
with which to hang their victims, and they most assuredly will.
Tonight I shall be lighting candles for the victims of heyduh and
moonspecks. I ask that the rest of the group do the same.
Blessed Be,
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
I think this is the point where I go "Um, er" and shuffle my feet. :}
- Darkhawk, er, um, er
Jani
"heyduh" <hey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148325271.2...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sure. Just re-define 'damage' and be happy with your albatross. You might
find yourself limited to others wearing the dead-fish necklace, though.
Jani
Jani
"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1hfr5ru.1dvb7a8glvl9wN%dark...@mindspring.com...
> Jani <ja...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
[]
>> I can go one better. I'm currently reading Salmon of Doubt, and she's
>> *better than Adams*.
>
> I think this is the point where I go "Um, er" and shuffle my feet. :}
I don't do compliments. If I say something nice, believe it. I don't do it
very often :)
(Of course, I don't live with authors, either, which it makes it easier to
be very appreciative of the writing of people I don't live with. People with
whom I do not live. Bah. )
Jani
(there was a time when I didn't mangle the language; somewhere around 1976,
probably)
SabracadabrA
wrote:
<snips>
>>'Thenie wrote:
Sadly I see your point about heyduh and moonspecks obsession driven
tenacity and I agree wholly with you Andrew.
In lieu of candles (due to mundane circumstances) I believe other
alternatives can be utilized as well. It is not my place to judge,
intervene directly nor punish so I will be turning this matter over to
those whose place it is as well as asking others to judge the
situation for themselves and to do as they see fit.
Personally I'd like to move the edge of the abyss they standing on a
little closer very quickly and it wouldn't take much nor would it to
nudge them over the edge as the fools have left themselves wide open
to manipulation. Fortunately after years of reading here I know
better.
Oh and a belated Congradulations to you and Jonenko 8)
I lurk mostly and rarely post but was very pleased and happy that
things worked out for the both of you.
*no sig as I'm testing my sig file, hope it works*
"I breathe for A Living...."
SabracadabrA
YOU will be damaging YOURSELF!!!!!
Have you not learned anything from all of the responses these fine
people have given you?
SabracadabrA
joneko
All I can do is hope, hope, hope that nothing gets through from these
love spells of theirs. The thought of anyone having to be the victim
of their actions...it's heartbreaking. I don't want to see anyone end
up that way, someone's dog on a leash.
Heyduh...your intentions nauseate me, and I'm frightened for your
unwitting victim. I hope that she can find the strength to cast off
whatever your selfishness does to her, both as immediate and prolonged
results of your self-centered obstinance.
(And SabracadabrA, thank you very much!)
-A.
Normally, I wouldn't intervene. This isn't a normal situation, though.
We have two people going on and on about their desire to enslave and
rape. We are in a position to help the would-be victims. A plain-text
reading of the Rede shows that we would be in the wrong to knowingly
allow heyduh and moonspecks to procede, and it would violate my ethics
to bind either of them. So, I'm lighting candles and sending energy out
to bolster the defense of those who stand *against* them. It's the
least I can do.
>
> Personally I'd like to move the edge of the abyss they standing on a
> little closer very quickly and it wouldn't take much nor would it to
> nudge them over the edge as the fools have left themselves wide open
> to manipulation. Fortunately after years of reading here I know
> better.
>
> Oh and a belated Congradulations to you and Jonenko 8)
> I lurk mostly and rarely post but was very pleased and happy that
> things worked out for the both of you.
>
> *no sig as I'm testing my sig file, hope it works*
> "I breathe for A Living...."
>
Thanks on the congrats. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
> >
> > Andrew:
> >
> > I think there is strong enough feeling raised here
> > posting a desire or intent to cast this sort of 'love'
> > spell (especially "heyduh" and "moonspecks") will
> > run up against a layer of protection projected out
> > to the target/victim of any spell of that nature.
> >
> > And, as has been stated several times already, the
> > spell will have nowhere to go but to return on the
> > spellcaster.
> >
> > And my experience is that they come back hungry
> > and angry.
> >
> > Poetic justice.
>
> heyduh and moonspecks will only try this *once*. If
> these damned fools were to keep at this for a prolonged
> period of time, eventually, it saddens me to say, their
> victims would weaken. Eventually, heyduh and/or
> moonspecks might win. Things done in a repeated,
> habitual, ritual fashion have a tendency to get results if
> they are repeated often enough with enough energy and
> effort. I don't think heyduh or moonspecks smart
> enough to walk away, and I certainly don't think them
> smart enough to learn from the rebounding energy *the
> first time*. If they were to persist in doing this for a
> prolonged period of time, they might very well win by
> eroding the walls of their victims.
>
> What must be kept in mind is the sheer mindless tenacity
> with which both heyduh and moonspecks have kept at
> these acts of slavery. They are not the type to cut and
> run after it fails the first time - these are true
believers in
> the idea that they are right, in the idea that they are
> invincible. Give them enough opportunities to succeed,
> and enough rope with which to hang their victims, and
> they most assuredly will.
Yeah, but I still think they will lessen their attempts as
they have more to handle (those repercussions). Your
actions are unnecessary; the situation will resolve itself.
Keep one thing in mind: a spell is a kind of contractual
action; you are not susceptible to any spell you do not
accept (on some level) to be party to, even the victim. If
it is this other person's need to be caught up in the spell,
it will affect them (the degree varies according to a myriad
of factors). If the person has no need to be involved, they
have natural protection (the degree also varies according to
a myriad of factors).
As for continued attempts to spellbind someone, the
repercussions will build on themselves; the result will be
impressive, though unpleasant and inconvenient. And, under
certain (common) conditions, many spells are doomed to never
work. There are conditions in the present circumstances
that could easily short circuit attempts at spellcraft and
backfire on the casters.
> Tonight I shall be lighting candles for the victims of
> heyduh and moonspecks. I ask that the rest of the
> group do the same.
Don't intervene with Fate. You have choice, Andrew.
The target/victim did not ask you to become involved, so
don't make "moonspeck"'s mistake of thinking you know best.
You are venturing in where you don't know the dynamics and
where you will also pick up responsibility.
This matter will resolve itself without so much personal
investment.
-'Thenie
<please excuse any multiple postings; hopefully third time's
the charm>
'Thenie
<snip astonishing post>
I bow to you, who have put it in the best way possible.
Yours was the final word, cutting through every pitiful
excuse and bit of denial.
I believe the discussion is closed; between you and Jani,
what more could possibly be said?
-'Thenie
-A.
Quite a lot, in my view. Heyduh and moonspecks aren't done harrassing
us and harranguing us until they move on to other groups or until they
give up or until they cast their spells. It's been talk and talk and
talk. We could have done so much more, 'Thenie. We could have bound
them. We could have informed their victims. We could have done any
number of proactive things. We could have taken steps to stop this with
more than just our words. Instead, we talked.
Why would it have been so terrible to light candles for the victims?
'Thenie
> 'Thenie wrote:
> > "joneko" wrote...
> > <snip astonishing post>
> >
> > I bow to you, who have put it in the best way possible.
> > Yours was the final word, cutting through every pitiful
> > excuse and bit of denial.
> >
> > I believe the discussion is closed; between you and
Jani,
> > what more could possibly be said?
>
done harrassing
> us and harranguing us until they move on to other groups
or until they
> give up or until they cast their spells. It's been talk
and talk and
> talk. We could have done so much more, 'Thenie. We could
have bound
> them. We could have informed their victims. We could
have done any
> number of proactive things. We could have taken steps to
stop this with
> more than just our words. Instead, we talked.
There is power in words. There is Power in words. And the
most important thing we have doen here is to acquaint these
fools with the truth. Whatever happens, these words will
follow them, maybe haunt them. What greater binding than
truth?
Harrassing and haranguing us can only be done by consent.
If you're sick of talking to the brick wall, then killfile
them. I've actually enjoyed the new points of view that
this has brought up. I've also been amazed at the
consensus; who'd have suspected?
And speaking of consent, recall my words, that spells only
work by consent on some level. I have to ask what karma
there is that draws you into this, which is not really your
fight. What makes it feel like it's your fight? What is
there about this that reminds you of issues or circumstances
in your own life? Just like it's easier for these guys to
be benevolent dictators and run someone else's life instead
of their own lives, it is also easier to take on another's
fight rather than fight one's own.
You get very heated about this, the issue of two magickal
newbies attempting spells on a couple unknown females, but
>real evil<, like Darfur you do little to organise a
response to. Gamesmanship amongst spurned lovers does not
rate as high in my estimation as genocide and vigorous
destruction of a racial group. I don't see you organising
anyting to stop the epedemic of online child preditors,
either, and those young lives are far more damaged than what
these two fools intend.
I truly believe they will get their comeuppance, and if
their targets/victims are as innocent as you project them to
be, then the targets/victims will enjoy be shielded. If
there is less innocence than is supposed, then they will
both suffer to the extent that they are both embroiled in
their situations. The karmic bonds will burn themselves
out, however long it takes to do so.
If you wish to see these jokers gone, don't respond to their
questions and posts. I notice a lot of questions from them,
but not much in way of answering my questions to them.
> Why would it have been so terrible to light candles for
the victims?
Because then you would be doing the same as those two fools.
-'Thenie
heyduh
uh. okay.
moonspecks
Ok, I read your replies and I know that it's wrong what I did. I want her
to be happy really.
How can I make the magick not hurt me or her now?
'Thenie
Ok, we're done now, you and me. >plonk<
FYI: >plonk< is the last sound you hear as I drop you into
my killfile.
-'Thenie
Dan Holzman
>
> Heyduh...your intentions nauseate me, and I'm frightened for your
> unwitting victim. I hope that she can find the strength to cast off
> whatever your selfishness does to her, both as immediate and prolonged
> results of your self-centered obstinance.
I think everyone needs to chill out about the subjects of these spells.
The two fools have made it painfully clear they don't know enough
about magick to cast their way out of a wet paper bag with both hands, a
road map, and a GPS. Any energies they manage to bring to bear won't
reach their intended destinations to be defended against. These efforts
of their is nothing more than them playing with themselves.
Jani
"Dan Holzman" <hol...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e4ubrl$qel$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Two words, Dan. *Public* newsgroup :)
Jani
joneko
level, in a situation in which two people could completely unwittingly
be very hurt. Granted I know nothing about them, and do not know if
they've done anything to merit karma acting against them; but it seems,
in this situation, that they are innocent victims.
Whether or not they have the strength to do what they intend -- does
that merit apathy? (Please do not believe I am accusing you of this,
because I am certainly not.) If there's a hurricane warning but it's
so far only been drizzling, does that mean people shouldn't stock up on
water and batteries just in case?
I stand behind what I said, if only because I don't see anything wrong
with caring about other people, strangers or not, situation be damned.
And 'Thenie (just as a general response) I think that it's much easier
for people to become personally, emotionally invested in a situation
that's closer to home, and between entities they can clearly mark as
individuals. I'm not saying it's good, but it does seem like the
nature of things with people doesn't it? That's why activism can be so
trying -- people have a harder time identifying with large groups of
people rather than faces with names, actions, reactions, histories,
feelings; and empathy aside, it's generally harder for people to feel
personally responsible for a situation in which they're so far removed.
Here, the people in question came and asked questions, and we
responded, and so it's a situation that has the potential to breed
guilt for whatever consequences come of their actions.
That said, while I don't think that this is a situation which will go
away if ignored, if these two are really so stubborn, I think we can
approach it in a different manner now that the situation has changed
(look at heyduh's most recent posts, for example). Instead of directly
involving ourselves in the situation by trying to put ourselves between
them and their targets, we could try to direct them towards
more...positive actions, for the future, now that they have been
completed and karma has no doubt already built against them?
Jackdaw
>>part of that same self-interest to only take action which you are
>>absolutely
>>sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing this point, in
>>spades.
>
>
>
> Janie (or anyone)
>
> can you show me how to make it so it doesn't damage me?
Do you mean "Can you show me how to rape a women so I don't feel too bad
about it?"
--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.
Every ones a genius.
Until they try to do something
Joseph Littleshoes
> "heyduh" <hey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148325271.2...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>>But if that's the route you wish to take, then it's also
>>>part of that same self-interest to only take action which you are
>>>absolutely
>>>sure doesn't damage *you*. Heyduh seems to be missing this point, in
>>>spades.
>>
>>
>>
>>Janie (or anyone)
>>
>>can you show me how to make it so it doesn't damage me?
>
>
> Do you mean "Can you show me how to rape a women so I don't feel too bad
> about it?"
>
>
Consider how much of life is influenced by our thoughts and actions. I
do not see how competition without magick is any different, morally,
than competition with magick. Or one person with better tools than
another. Is it morally wrong that one individual has better tools than
another?
While in general i agree with most of what has been posted to this
thread in regards the likelihood of such a 'love spell' backfiring on
the caster, abstractly i think 'spell work' is as much of a tool to be
used according to the individuals own needs & ideas of right and wrong
as any other tool or talent they might possess.
And at the risk of seeming a bit of a party pooper, i don't think the
various people posting about acquiring and using such a spell have any
idea how to go about it, and even if they had a step by step instruction
i don't think they have the will, intent or reserves of psychic energy
to be effective. There's always beginners luck but effective spell
casting takes as much or more practice than any other art.
One does not sit down after one lesson and begin to play the piano like
van Cliburn. It takes years of dedication and practice. And one usually
does not learn to play individual songs, one learns to recognize and
combine any particular combination of notes, and to make up ones own
combinations as desired, mastery of the tool not of an individual song.
It may even be part of these peoples destiny to incur any repercussions
successful spell casting may initiate. And who amongst us have not made
an error or two in our attempt to understand and master this art,
especially when young and the hormones are raging?
I have often thought a lot of these 'warnings' against magical coercion
are an attempt by non magical people to limit the use by magical people
of an inherent human ability they don't poses or cant for whatever
reason bring themselves to use or even believe exists but just to be on
the safe side deem immoral.
We routinely coerce people with kindness as well as brute force or the
threat of it, abstractly i don't see the objection to a love spell. It
probly wont work anyway as a 'love spell' i believe there has to be
something there to work with, some lingering desire or attraction other
wise there will be no 'flame to fan'.
Curses are a bit different, a curse can be aimed at a individual that is
not even aware of the caster existence, or feels justified in the
actions they have taken that have triggered the curse and some degree of
success can be expected assuming the spell caster has the requisite
enthusiasm for the spell.
---
JL
But a love spell ultimately involves the acceptance by another person.
-A.
By undoing what you have done, giving up on ever doing it again, and
doing everything in your power to be as good a person as possible for
the rest of your life, including by giving up on ever trying to control
another person again.
It's time to go into a mode of thought where you try to do as much
*good* as possible, as often as possible.
It's also time to ask a *very* good question: how do I undo a spell that
has already been cast?
It's also time to pray to your God for help in undoing all the damage
you have done.
Sergeant Tibbs
> moonspecks wrote:
>> Thenie,
>>
>> 2 comments:
>>
>> When I said that the magick might work or not, you said "sure it will.
>> You press it, anything will happen." Are you saying that just because I
>> did the magick, the spell is going to work?
>
> value of "enough times" varies wildly depending on what the spell is
> supposed to do. Please note that "enough times" may be a value that is
> greater than your own lifespan - there are some things that will *not*
> happen in your lifetime.
So I suppose as long as I try long enough it is possible, eventually, to
turn guns into butter.
>
>>
>> Then you said, I'm responsible even if the spell does not work. Why
>> would
>> I be responsible for something that didn't work? Yes, I tried to do it,
>> but it didn't work. How am I robbing her if the spell didn't work and
>> she
>> is not with me?
>>
> If you try and shoot someone to death, and they live, you are still
> responsible for trying to kill them - it's called "attempted murder".
> The penal system has a whole bunch of "attempted X" crimes such as
> attempted murder, attempted larceny, attempted burglary, etc., etc.,
> etc. to make people responsible for actions that do not succeed.
> Attempted murder is still a crime. So too, therefore, is attempted
> slavery, which is exactly what you will be karmically guilty of if your
> spell(s) (and I pray that the plural in this case is not necessary) fail.
>
Hell, even if it does work, he's as bound as the slave. To what does
one attach the slave's chain if not oneself?
>> Are you saying if I (or any human being for that matter) does a mistake,
>> then he or she is doomed?
>
> Not doomed in the apocalyptic sense, no. Doomed to face the
> consequences? Yes. Every action, from waking up in the morning to
> going to bed at night and everything in between, has consequences.
> *EVERY* action. And we must face the consequences. It's called
> cause-and-effect. You do something, it has consequences. Period.
> Simple logic, there, logic you seem to fail to grasp.
>
> Blessed Be,
> -A.
>
Sergeant Tibbs
--
© Typographical errors contained in this document are the sole copyright
of Typo Demons, Inc., or its subsidiary, Error Monkeys LLC. All rights
reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced without the
prior written permission of the Typo Demons, Inc., or its subsidiary,
Error Monkeys LLC.
-A.
That is true, I admit.
>
> Harrassing and haranguing us can only be done by consent.
> If you're sick of talking to the brick wall, then killfile
> them. I've actually enjoyed the new points of view that
> this has brought up. I've also been amazed at the
> consensus; who'd have suspected?
>
I don't killfile, 'Thenie. I just don't. Killfiling and I just don't
get along.
> And speaking of consent, recall my words, that spells only
> work by consent on some level. I have to ask what karma
> there is that draws you into this, which is not really your
> fight. What makes it feel like it's your fight? What is
> there about this that reminds you of issues or circumstances
> in your own life? Just like it's easier for these guys to
> be benevolent dictators and run someone else's life instead
> of their own lives, it is also easier to take on another's
> fight rather than fight one's own.
>
Why do I feel drawn to help heyduh's and moonspeck's victims? Every
magick user has a pet issue when it comes to magick, I believe. Mine is
love spells. Having done so many of the *POSITIVE*, *ETHICAL* (emphasis
is for heyduh and moonspecks, so they *don't* think I'm one of them)
variety for so many years, and having done so much thinking about it,
and having read just how many different variants there are on the
*negative* and *unethical* ones, when I see someone trying to do the
right thing the right way, I feel compelled to help them in whatever way
I can (typically by giving whatever feedback I can, when asked, and by
acting as a sounding board for when they have too many ideas at once).
When I see someone trying to do the right thing the *wrong* way (i.e.
"finding love" spells cast while the caster actually has a crush on
someone), I try to show, patiently and in as helpful a manner as I can,
better and more constructive ways to do it, without the spells being
coercive or enslaving. When I see people trying to do the *negative and
unethical* ones, I feel compelled to do whatever I can to stop them.
Love is sacred to me, 'Thenie. Having gone so long without it, and
having been blessed with it due to the Grace of Goddess (and the grace
of Joanna), one can understand that. When I see someone who is actively
trying to do something that is so clearly sacrilegious, I get heated.
> You get very heated about this, the issue of two magickal
> newbies attempting spells on a couple unknown females, but
> >real evil<, like Darfur you do little to organise a
> response to. Gamesmanship amongst spurned lovers does not
> rate as high in my estimation as genocide and vigorous
> destruction of a racial group. I don't see you organising
> anyting to stop the epedemic of online child preditors,
> either, and those young lives are far more damaged than what
> these two fools intend.
>
You only know what you see of me on ARWM, 'Thenie, just like I only know
of you what I have seen here, through email, and in our one face-to-face
meeting. Casting aspersions on my character to win a point is beneath
you. What you don't know of me is that I march against the war in Iraq,
I give money to charities (when I can), I donate time, and I write. You
paint me as a passive person who is suddenly active in this one thing,
and that this passion and need to help is out-of-character. That is
hardly the case. And I would appreciate it if you would not attempt to
paint a picture of my beliefs with such a wide brush on a digital canvas
while blindfolded.
> I truly believe they will get their comeuppance, and if
> their targets/victims are as innocent as you project them to
> be, then the targets/victims will enjoy be shielded. If
> there is less innocence than is supposed, then they will
> both suffer to the extent that they are both embroiled in
> their situations. The karmic bonds will burn themselves
> out, however long it takes to do so.
>
Innocent/Guilty in terms of the way karma treats you is a fallacy,
'Thenie, and you know it. Children who are born into starvation are not
guilty of anything; victims of mass genocide are only guilty in the eyes
of the ruling madness, not guilty in the eyes of karma; victims of
school shootings, epidemics, sexual predation by family, drive-by
shootings, etc., etc., etc. are only guilty of being *alive*.
The fallacy with your argument is that you have seconded the notion that
heyduh and moonspecks would be *raping* their victims. Tell me: if a
woman dresses in a somewhat provocative manner, is she less of a victim
than a woman who dresses wholly conservatively, if both are raped?
You're blaming the victim of rape when you should be blaming the
rapists. That disgusts me.
> If you wish to see these jokers gone, don't respond to their
> questions and posts. I notice a lot of questions from them,
> but not much in way of answering my questions to them.
>
>
>>Why would it have been so terrible to light candles for the victims?
>
> Because then you would be doing the same as those two fools.
>
> -'Thenie
>
I disagree. These women are about to be *raped*, 'Thenie. No rape
victim brought it on themself. If you had the ability to step in and
stop a rape, in meatspace, before it was committed, by your logic in the
above quoted post, you wouldn't as you would be interfering with karma.
You claim that by stopping a rape you are being a rapist! That logic
doesn't fly at all, 'Thenie.