Dumb supper?
Gryph
can't seem to find any reference that tells me what, exactly, a dumb
supper is.
Can anyone help me out, here?
BB
--
Gryphontamer Azurewing'd
******************************
"A witch meets two kinds of
people in the world: witches,
and those who are glad they're
not witches."
******************************
ICQ#:43106126
Reply to: Gryph AT altcastlenet DOT com
Aeseker
though.
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
"Gryph" <Gr...@altcastlenet.com> wrote in message
news:8rc31l$ha7gs$1...@ID-15901.news.cis.dfn.de...
Gale
<Gr...@altcastlenet.com> wrote:
>I've heard this phrase a few times in connection with Samhain, but I
>can't seem to find any reference that tells me what, exactly, a dumb
>supper is.
When I use the term, I refer to a meal at which an extra place
is set, for one / those who's left the Earthly realm and may
wish to return for a visit. I set the place, offer food
(generally in the form of a slice of bread), then, following our
meal transfer the spirits' meal to the outdoors, having added
sunflower seeds or bird seed to the repast, to invite woodland
inhabitants both spirit and mundane to enjoy any of the repast
left behind by our guests.
I believe folks who give closer attention to folk rituals than I
can offer a more complete account.
The extra place at the table is traditional at Samhain, when the
veil between the worlds is thinnest, and the Autumnal
associations with Death strongest. The celebration marking the
other thinning of the veil, Beltaine, emphasizes birth, so the
repast for the Dead is not, to my knowledge, part of that
celebration.
>
>Can anyone help me out, here?
>
>BB
>
>
>--
>Gryphontamer Azurewing'd
>******************************
>"A witch meets two kinds of
>people in the world: witches,
>and those who are glad they're
>not witches."
>******************************
>ICQ#:43106126
>Reply to: Gryph AT altcastlenet DOT com
>
>
>
Blessed Be,
Gale
http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html (original
Tarot, poetry, fiction)
ga...@arwm.net
modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
paul...@my-deja.com
> I've heard this phrase a few times in connection with Samhain, but I
> can't seem to find any reference that tells me what, exactly, a dumb
> supper is.
>
The Dumb Supper can be used as a divination to see who you will marry
(it is still practiced to this end in Appalachia) or as a celebration
of your dead loved ones.
You set a fine table for two, and maintain silence from sundown to
midnight (true midnight, ie. halfway between sundown and sunrise).
There are some charms to work prior to the period of silence, and then
you entertain the fetch of your future loved one or the shades of your
deceased loved ones, as the case may be, at the table you have set.
Huson (Mastering Witchcraft) has the amatory Dumb Supper documented...I
fforget who has the necromantic one.
Paul
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Shez
<Aes...@ATYahoo.com> writes
>To my knowledge, it is a supper during which no one speaks. Could be wrong
>though.
>
>
It means that your putting out a supper or meal for someone who will not
be their, a dumb guest as it were, usually someone who is dead, or
missing.
Samhain traditionally has a plate setting and a glass for those who wish
to visit, those who are recently dead in particular,
Dumb suppers were often taken by the families of soldiers or loved ones
reported missing, to invite the missing one to share one last meal, or
to show they are alive.
In ancient history it was a time for soldiers to set a place for their
dead enemy's to bring them back to ask them for advise and to treat them
as honoured guests,
After all if your enemy was honoured, and had many stories told of his
prowess, and bravery and honour then the more status you earned by
having killed him
The guests were honoured, and in that meal and that night their would be
no recriminations, no guilt and the soul of the warrior could be
released to go into whatever warriors after life they believed in .
Some modern pagan warriors use this method to loose the guilt and the
potential problems that having killed can bring, it releases them
because they are treating the enemy as honoured guests and honourable
warriors, and setting their souls at rest. Thus releasing themselves
from conflict
>--
>Aeseker
>www.arwm-studygroup.com
>
>"Gryph" <Gr...@altcastlenet.com> wrote in message
>news:8rc31l$ha7gs$1...@ID-15901.news.cis.dfn.de...
>> I've heard this phrase a few times in connection with Samhain, but I
>> can't seem to find any reference that tells me what, exactly, a dumb
>> supper is.
>>
>> Can anyone help me out, here?
>>
>> BB
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gryphontamer Azurewing'd
>> ******************************
>> "A witch meets two kinds of
>> people in the world: witches,
>> and those who are glad they're
>> not witches."
>> ******************************
>> ICQ#:43106126
>> Reply to: Gryph AT altcastlenet DOT com
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
ScHiZo
> potential problems that having killed can bring, it releases them
> because they are treating the enemy as honoured guests and honourable
> warriors, and setting their souls at rest. Thus releasing themselves
> from conflict
'scuse me.........modern pagan warriors?this conjures some really bad
stereotypical mental images which i realise are completely wrong but there
anyway. how many wiccans/pagans are actually in the armed forces around the
world?
-----------------------------
now that he lay twisted in the meadow
it hardly seemed to matter anymore
-----------------------------
WBtobal
<bulletr...@hotmail.com> writes:
>how many wiccans/pagans are actually in the armed forces around the
>world?
Whew..I fear that if each and every one of them answered individually,
this poor old list server will get overloaded. Can't answer your question,
but can tell you that there were many who served with me, and I served
for 30 years. Blessed Be.
Sionnach~Dossa
The three highest causes of the upright human:
Honour, Duty and Truth.
ScHiZo
> this poor old list server will get overloaded. Can't answer your
question,
> but can tell you that there were many who served with me, and I served
> for 30 years. Blessed Be.
did you have to make your religious beliefs known? i dont know whether its a
rumour but apparently the vatican retain a group of security experts with
strong catholic/christian ties. ive also heard rumours from friends in the
army about religious beliefs governing the compilation of some military
groups(christian)although a)i didnt quite understand what he was getting at
and b)completely believe him.
in this day and age i wouldnt have expected this kind of thing would happen
or be a reason for it. i only mention this because i dont know how ingrained
religion is within the military or any large organisations and how itd work
for or against you depending. these things worry me.
WBtobal
(bulletr...@hotmail.com) asked:
>did you have to make your religious beliefs known? i dont know whether its a
>rumour but apparently the vatican retain a group of security experts with
>strong catholic/christian ties. ive also heard rumours from friends in the
>army about religious beliefs governing the compilation of some military
>groups(christian)although a)i didnt quite understand what he was getting at
>and b)completely believe him.
>in this day and age i wouldnt have expected this kind of thing would happen
>or be a reason for it. i only mention this because i dont know how ingrained
>religion is within the military or any large organisations and how itd work
>for or against you depending. these things worry me.
Revealing ones religious preference was/is a personal decision. I did,
and it never seemed to raise an eyebrow (although that may have been
due to the listeners ignorance). I can't speak to the Vatican or military
groups compiling religious preference records...it may occur, but I rather
doubt it. I don't believe the subject of religion comes up in the military
any more often than it might in any other large organization, GM, IBM,
Ford, etc., but then that's just my experience. Blessed Be.
Sionnach~Dossa
Three beliefs never to be swayed from:
Ones Gods, ones Oaths, and Truth
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> 'scuse me.........modern pagan warriors?this conjures some really bad
> stereotypical mental images which i realise are completely wrong but there
> anyway. how many wiccans/pagans are actually in the armed forces around the
> world?
One assumes the question is limited to the Armed Forces of the United
States. If so, a web search on the subject of the Pagan Military
Network should unearth some folks who can answer the question.
Sorry I don't have the url readily at hand. I suspect, however, that it
may be provided by one or more readers or alt.religion.wicca.moderated.
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at
<http://www.bairdstafford.com>
Jeff Heuer
>One assumes the question is limited to the Armed Forces of the United
>States. If so, a web search on the subject of the Pagan Military
>Network should unearth some folks who can answer the question.
>
>Sorry I don't have the url readily at hand. I suspect, however, that it
>may be provided by one or more readers or alt.religion.wicca.moderated.
Must be http://www.milpagan.org
Jeff Heuer
Fresno, CA
http://www.geocities.com/desertfoxsden
(Mabon 2000 Edition now running)
Moderator-paganactivist mailing list:
http://www.egroups.com/community/paganactivist
and paganactivist club:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/paganactivist
Victorre
I am a Pagan that has been US Military (both enlisted, now officer)
for over 13 years now, I have noted:
1. The military STILL begins all official functions with an
invocation that more often tan not contains the phrases "Heaven;y
Father" and "Jesus Christ" somewhere in them
2. The recent preponderance of religious right Republicans in
congress has brought to light some negative feelings of many of them
hold against Pagans. Several Senators from the SE have attempted to
bar Wiccan circles access to the same base resources that the xians
and jews have
3. Most people that I have confessed my religious preference to have
not cared... BUT I am VERY careful who I tell! I also belong to the
local Unitarian Universalist congregation, so I can say I attend
Sunday services and teach religious education
4. My current supervisor is a Mormon Bishop who will not think twice
about using the phone in the office to conduct his church business
during the course of the day. His boss, also Mormon, supports his
actions.
I have recently come under considerable scrutiny for my open support
of Gay rights, thus I remain in the Broom Closet.
BB
Victorre
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Must be http://www.milpagan.org
That's the one! Thanks, Jeff. It's gone into my "URLs People Ask For"
file - finally....
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> Okay,I have lurked long enough!
> I am a Pagan that has been US Military (both enlisted, now officer)
> for over 13 years now, I have noted:
> 1. The military STILL begins all official functions with an
> invocation that more often tan not contains the phrases "Heaven;y
> Father" and "Jesus Christ" somewhere in them
Hmm, the American Legion, prohibits invoking the name of Christ, or so
I was told. Though indeed have heard that god is referred to in
male form. Though even this could be considered to just mean
deitie(s) male being a default for both sexes.
> 2. The recent preponderance of religious right Republicans in
> congress has brought to light some negative feelings of many of them
> hold against Pagans. Several Senators from the SE have attempted to
> bar Wiccan circles access to the same base resources that the xians
> and jews have
Indeed this is true, however most published incident that I am aware
of (Fort Hood) the Military has resisted such attacks.
> 3. Most people that I have confessed my religious preference to have
> not cared... BUT I am VERY careful who I tell! I also belong to the
> local Unitarian Universalist congregation, so I can say I attend
> Sunday services and teach religious education
The UU always confused me, somehow trying to welcome all faiths, but
Christian based. Caution is always needed, reactions from some
are very surprising.
> 4. My current supervisor is a Mormon Bishop who will not think twice
> about using the phone in the office to conduct his church business
> during the course of the day. His boss, also Mormon, supports his
> actions.
Power can corrupt, and I am sure that officers often conduct personal
business while on company time, be it religion, dating, and so
on.
> I have recently come under considerable scrutiny for my open support
> of Gay rights, thus I remain in the Broom Closet.
As I recall US has a no tell policy, if you where to say you are
gay (which is what I infer from the words) indeed you need to stay in
the closet. If I somehow misread and you are saying you are pagan,
the people around you indeed still can be a problem. In law there is
no discrimination due to faith in practice there indeed is. In fact
prejudice under certain circumstance are legal. Small scale
things, like if renting part of your house one has the right to
demand a non drinking person.
>
> BB
> Victorre
Shez
>> potential problems that having killed can bring, it releases them
>> because they are treating the enemy as honoured guests and honourable
>> warriors, and setting their souls at rest. Thus releasing themselves
>> from conflict
>
>stereotypical mental images which i realise are completely wrong but there
>anyway. how many wiccans/pagans are actually in the armed forces around the
>world?
Thousands upon thousands, I should imagine, certainly their are quite a
lot in the American military, and many have actually come out.
Some of the pagans who use the dumb supper, were not in fact pagans when
they were involved in war, but the killing and the sickness of war
leaves scars, For some who are now pagans, the Warriors dumb supper is a
way to let go of old enmity, and to celebrate the lives of those who
were killed, to let them be honoured enemy's. To give them a chance to
pass on, and to give those left behind a chance to heal.
>
>-----------------------------
>now that he lay twisted in the meadow
>it hardly seemed to matter anymore
>-----------------------------
>
>
--
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Some of the pagans who use the dumb supper, were not in fact pagans when
> they were involved in war, but the killing and the sickness of war
> leaves scars, For some who are now pagans, the Warriors dumb supper is a
> way to let go of old enmity, and to celebrate the lives of those who
> were killed, to let them be honoured enemy's.
I understand it actually works for some - not from your war, but from
mine. The wounds of SE Asia run deep....
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Some of the pagans who use the dumb supper, were not in fact pagans when
>> they were involved in war, but the killing and the sickness of war
>> leaves scars, For some who are now pagans, the Warriors dumb supper is a
>> way to let go of old enmity, and to celebrate the lives of those who
>> were killed, to let them be honoured enemy's.
>
>I understand it actually works for some - not from your war, but from
>mine. The wounds of SE Asia run deep....
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
>
>
see those enemy's as real people with family's and people who loved
them, especially when all the propaganda has been towards seeing them as
monsters.
To accept them as people, and people who were probably just as scared
and frightened as you would be. Is the hardest part of it, the rest is
easy.
To then see them as honoured enemy's is not a difficult step.
Richard Ballard
> can't seem to find any reference that tells me what, exactly, a dumb
> supper is.
>
> Can anyone help me out, here?
>From "Mastering Witchcraft: A Practical Guide for Witches,
Warlocks, & Covens" by Paul Huson, pp. 111-115:
"The operation of amatory necromancy is known among witches
as the Dumb Supper. It can, however, be utilized for two purposes;
the first being the evocation of the shade of a dead loved one, the
second the calling forth of what is known as an eidolon or wraith,
the spectral apparition of a *future* loved one or spouse.
<snip>
When the night of evocation arrives, having eaten no supper nor
partaken of any refreshment since sunset, just before the hour
of midnight strikes, arrange your place of working in the following
manner:
Cover your altar table with a new, white, exorcised cloth, and
place a chair at the west side of it facing east, and one opposite,
facing west. On the table, place a bouquet of sweet-smelling
flowers. Then light two of your lamps before the (Aside: loved
one's) portrait, and kindle your thurible, burning amatory incense.
Consecrate your place of working now, walking backwards
beginning at the east, passing to the south, the west, and finally
the north, asperging and censing as you go, calling upon
Habondia (Aside: the Wiccan Goddess) to aid you in this work.
Every action in the ceremony must be performed *silently and
backwards* for only thus do we begin to walk the paths of the
dead.
Having got this far, you must now lay two place settings at the
table, yours in the east, the deceased's in the west, using your
ordinary household dish service and cutlery which should have
been passed previously through fire and water. The settings
should be sufficient to provide for the normal amount of courses
you would serve at a regular dinner for two if you were serving it,
preferably of the type of food you know was favored by the
deceased. It also should include a glass for wine, beer, or
whatever beverage the deceased enjoyed drinking with meals.
You must now proceed to serve the food, again walking
backwards to and from the kitchen, and always as silently as
you can. When you serve the food, you must serve only very
small portions, a quarter of the amount you would regularly eat,
as it is a symbolic gesture only: The dead are very light eaters!
<snip>
... after replenishing the incense, move backwards clockwise
round the table to your seat and begin to eat your portion of
your supper. As you do this, *avoid looking directly at the seat
opposite you. This is most important.* If you break this rule,
you can effectively nullify the spell. The temptation is enormous
but must be resisted strongly.
When you have finished your repast, leave the dishes as they
are, and walking backwards, replenish the incense and extinguish
the lamps at the portrait, still avoiding staring directly at the chair
in the west. Then return to your own. Close your eyes, call the
deceased's name three times, and then mentally repeat the words
of the great necromantic charge: 'Allay Fortission Fortissio
Allynson Roa.'"
[Aside: My Latin (Italian) is rusty, but I believe this translates
roughly to 'Strong One, give me strength'.]
"With your eyes still shut, mentally welcome the loved one.
Traditionally, this is the place where the shade will manifest.
You should slowly open your eyes and see what you can see.
<snip>
Allow yourself to enjoy this silent communion without reservation.
The time will pass all too quickly. When you have fully enjoyed,
or been duly horrified by, whichever the case may be, ..., repeat
the license to depart silently to the shade: ... Cast a few more
grains of incense on the coals as you silently bid adieu."
[Aside: The same spell (without portrait and walking backwards)
can be used effectively to deal with a visiting divorced spouse who
is behind in child support payments. Having your children
participate in the supper, likewise withholding eye contact and
conversation, adds to the spell's impact.]
Best wishes.
Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging, and security