Questions for Shez
Arachne-arwm-studygroup website
There are so many things I want to ask you but for now I'll confine my
curiosity to these few questions.
>And to add to the discussion, I use magick and have for nearly fifty years
>without the aid of tools, and personally I find that the best results are
>those that use the will and visualisation, without thephysical presence of
tools.
<snip>
a) Were you fam' trad' trained from a little girl to use only visualization
and your will, or did you use some tools until you had built up enough inner
confidence to work without them?
b) Would you be willing to write *a beginners (dummies<grin>) guide to
doing
it my way* for the Study Group website?
However much wiclets and even those with some magickal experience might wish
to emulate you, without basic ground rules and milestones to work towards
*in safety* I can't see how they are going to make the first grade. Imagine
if you will (no pun intended<grin>), a young person drawn towards
Witchy/Pagan ways. No family or friends in the trade so to speak but
they've been reading this newsgroup and like what you are saying. So,
visualising all these little chicks sitting around you and the camp fire one
moonlit summer evening, what would you instil into them first and foremost?
I am deadly serious about this by the way, despite the attempted humour
Bright blessings
Arachne
Shez
studygroup website <webmi...@arwm-studygroup.com> writes
>Greetings Shez,
>
>There are so many things I want to ask you but for now I'll confine my
>curiosity to these few questions.
>
>>And to add to the discussion, I use magick and have for nearly fifty years
>>without the aid of tools, and personally I find that the best results are
>>those that use the will and visualisation, without thephysical presence of
>tools.
><snip>
>
>a) Were you fam' trad' trained from a little girl to use only visualization
>and your will, or did you use some tools until you had built up enough inner
>confidence to work without them?
I am Fam trad, and I could have used tools, novices can, it helps them
learn visualisation. I found the only tool I ever needed was a candle
flame.
My grandmother never used tools, I never rarely saw my Aunts use them
either. Though I know how to use them,
For some people its necessary to use tools because they work better that
way. But the tools would have been simple, a kitchen knife, scissors, a
pan, a bowl, string. Nothing fancy just what was at hand.
>
>b) Would you be willing to write *a beginners (dummies<grin>) guide to
>doing
>it my way* for the Study Group website?
Urgggg... I asked for that didn't I.... Well I could write a beginners
guide to visualisation, and people could take it from their. Once you
have a grasp of visualisation then things start to fall into place.
>
>However much wiclets and even those with some magickal experience might wish
>to emulate you, without basic ground rules and milestones to work towards
>*in safety* I can't see how they are going to make the first grade. Imagine
>if you will (no pun intended<grin>), a young person drawn towards
>Witchy/Pagan ways. No family or friends in the trade so to speak but
>they've been reading this newsgroup and like what you are saying. So,
>visualising all these little chicks sitting around you and the camp fire one
>moonlit summer evening, what would you instil into them first and foremost?
Besides how wonderful the world is. :)
I would tell them to look into the flames, just like when they were
children and see all those wonderful things children see in fires.
Castles, knights in armour, fairies, dragons. You go on from their.
I have in fact for many years trained people how to use visualisation,
and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
understand its a very long term, not a short term learning experience.
Can we discuss this further in E-mail.
>
>I am deadly serious about this by the way, despite the attempted humour
I like the humour. Life is never that serious. (Grin )
>
>Bright blessings
>
>Arachne
>
>webmi...@arwm-studygroup.com
>
> www.arwm-studygroup.com
>
>
>
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
Finch Evergreen
<webmi...@arwm-studygroup.com> wrote:
>
>There are so many things I want to ask you but for now I'll confine my
>curiosity to these few questions.
I, too, would love to see something written by Shez in
arwm-studygroup...
Shez,
I read your posts with relish, and have a folder on my computer where
I place most of what you write. Your common sense, deep insights,
sense of humor, and the way you bring things "down to earth" are
priceless.
I don't post often, but read ARWM every day. I am amazed at how
intellectually challenging most posts are. But what I like most is
that, when things get too complicated or lofty, dear Shez will post
something that makes total sense, and do it in her inimitable style.
Guess this was my chance to thank Shez publicly for her wisdom!
BB,
Ian
Shez
<ian...@aol.com> writes
manra...@my-deja.com
ask you over for tea and discuss these things and you're such a darn
interesting person.
> I am Fam trad, and I could have used tools, novices can, it helps them
> learn visualisation. I found the only tool I ever needed was a candle
> flame.
> My grandmother never used tools, I never rarely saw my Aunts use them
> either. Though I know how to use them,
So what was your first Craft experience, did you grow up immersed in it
or did your family bring you into it at a certain point? Who taught
you, mother, grandmother, what was your father about all this time? You
mention your Aunts, did you have a family coven going on? If there's
things you can't speak about, I understand.
> For some people its necessary to use tools because they work better
that
> way. But the tools would have been simple, a kitchen knife, scissors,
a
> pan, a bowl, string. Nothing fancy just what was at hand.
So how does what you learned parallel Gardenarian Wicca with it's
claims to the past? Did you and yours consider/call yourself witches,
or how did you think/call yourselves? Did you latter study other
systems, how did this help you in your growth?
> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
visualisation,
> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
experience.
How do you work now, alone or in a group? Do you think your background
makes you a different kind of HPS than others who are not fam/trad?
What was it like growing up for you, did your friends know of your
spiritual path, how did you fit in?
How has Wicca changed as you've seen it over the years, as a cultural
or spiritual phenomenea?
How is what you pass on to your family different from what was taught
to you?
Well I could ask more, hope you don't think this cheeky of me, but I
can think of no one who has spoken as eloquently or as wisely over the
years, I suppose you need your own Shez FAQs page.
~Blessings (from Tampa,Florida),
Ariel
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Shez
>Shez, hope you don't mind a few More questions, it's just that I can't
>ask you over for tea and discuss these things and you're such a darn
>interesting person.
>
>> I am Fam trad, and I could have used tools, novices can, it helps them
>> learn visualisation. I found the only tool I ever needed was a candle
>> flame.
>> My grandmother never used tools, I never rarely saw my Aunts use them
>> either. Though I know how to use them,
>
>So what was your first Craft experience, did you grow up immersed in it
>or did your family bring you into it at a certain point? Who taught
>you, mother, grandmother, what was your father about all this time? You
>mention your Aunts, did you have a family coven going on? If there's
>things you can't speak about, I understand.
My own family and others were pagan, but it was the women who used the
magick, Men on the whole were not interested, it was simply the way it
was then.
I think dads magick came out in his green thumb, he could grow
anything, I seem to have inherited that from him, I cant cure people but
I can cure plants, and they all grow like mad for me. :)
Aunt. when I was a girl was a polite term for any lady who was a close
friend of the family, Some were in fact family members, others not.
They certainly got together, often in each others homes, but it was for
social and teaching not for ritual.
I was brought up to think magick was personal to each one who used it,
and I have not changed my mind,
magick is a very personal thing, and that people trying to share a
common goal by sharing energy or magick tend to end up with little power
for that goal, simply because everyone is different, thinks differently,
and douse things differently.
I would find it impossible for instance to give power to someone who was
at the centre of a circle, having attended various circles as a guest, I
noticed that a vast majority of the energy in fact dissipated, because
it was aimed at one person who was supposed to be sending it on.
I found the same thing in churches, the power would build and then
dissipate, because it had not been used by the people who put out that
power.
So a common goal like a healing, would in fact be done separately by
each person. They would act as individuals, with a common goal and the
results could be quite spectacular.
I guess I grow up with the craft, but didn't realise until I was older
that my family were different, when I started to ask questions, then I
started to be taught, but the first thing you learned was that it was
dangerous to talk to others outside the family about what we did.
Keep it in the family was a rule you lived by.
My first experience was nothing special, :) especially in our family
where out of the ordinary was the norm. Magick is something that grows
as you practice. However watching some of those old women work, was
incredible, I didn't think it was possible I would ever learn to do what
they could do,
I did realise about age fifty, that I could do what I had seen them
doing, and I was right, I could never learn to do what they could do,
each of them was different had a different talent or speciality,
You learn to get as good as you can get, in your own way, and your own
time.
No two people are alike. I am an elder now, and a teacher, but with the
knowledge that what I know is only the tip of the iceberg, its so vast
it would take hundreds of lives to know it all.
For many women it was a way of using power that was outside of the male
pattern, for me Males who used magick were almost unheard of, they would
be magicians not witches.
Today I have a man within the group I have taught, he can work as well
as any woman,
I was very unsure about his presence at first, but he proved to me that
men could not only use magick, but they were as good as women given the
same training. And he did not as I had feared try to take the group
over, Some men don't cope well with women only groups. He coped
superbly.
Their are however strengths in his magick that are very male, though he
tends to be less intuitive than women I have trained . he has strengths
in other directions.
I also sent him to a shaman of my acquaintance so he could learn What I
call male magick. It worked out very well.
I learned a lesson to, that Men can use magick and can be taught what I
would call women's magick.
>
>> For some people its necessary to use tools because they work better
>that
>> way. But the tools would have been simple, a kitchen knife, scissors,
>a
>> pan, a bowl, string. Nothing fancy just what was at hand.
>
> So how does what you learned parallel Gardenarian Wicca with it's
>claims to the past? Did you and yours consider/call yourself witches,
>or how did you think/call yourselves? Did you latter study other
>systems, how did this help you in your growth?
We considered ourselves craft people, Witches was not a word you used
them, As I grew up I realised that craft and witch meant the same thing.
Their were no rituals that were anything like wicca, but their are
parallels in modern wicca, their were and are ethics, and a strong
feeling of trust and mutual support.
A great many pagans had learned to do without tools, it was a lot safer.
I learned about wicca, out of interest, the same way I learned about
Christianity, by listening and researching, I also learned enough about
most of the major religions to satisfy my curiosity,
I also know a lot of wiccans.
Their was no spiritual norm, basically you believed what your heart and
soul led you to believe, some believed in the entity's, what you would
call gods. Some believed in Christianity, some believed that the whole
universe was deity, and that each of us carried a part of that within
us, for many that was an explanation of how we came to have magick, if
the whole universe was part of the creator, then we to must be a part of
that creator to, The magick comes from that spark of divinity within us.
I think the majority felt that way. I certainly do.
I have known other systems, though not studied them in depth, family
trad were private in many ways, and depending on the family their would
be differences.
The Smiths had their own magick, it was very male and based on metal,
not just swords for war, but ploughs for peace to. The god or entity of
the smiths was Wayland Smith. All smiths were his apprentices, and all
Smiths owed him a debt, from him came the art of Smith craft.
The Rom. or Romany had their own ways to, My Gran would get a visit from
an old Rom Woman when her group were in the area. She left a mark on
Gran's Door post to tell other Rom not to call.
They used to sit and chat together in gran's kitchen over a big pot of
Tea, and if gran had baked, pieces of cake, or biscuits.
>
>
>> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
>visualisation,
>> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
>> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
>experience.
>
> How do you work now, alone or in a group? Do you think your background
>makes you a different kind of HPS than others who are not fam/trad?
Yes, I was a very unwilling teacher, I sort of got talked into it by a
friend who wanted very much to harness the talents she knew she had.
I have always been straight with close friends about what I am, its
never made the slightest bit of difference to any friendship.
Over the years a group was born, but it was, along the pattern that I
had been brought up with, it was a social and training group.
I am a solitary who teaches others, I think most of the pagans I know
the traditional ones at least were solitary and some would be teachers
or meet on social occasions.
I have brought most of my students up to a level where they can now not
only use magick but teach it to others, for me that was the goal,
I don't want to be an HPs. I believe spirituality is far to personal
for any interference on my part, everyone's spiritual path is different,
I simply taught the art and craft of magick. Nothing spiritual about it,
I don't want power over people, I have quite enough problems with my own
life, to want to run someone else's. :)
> What was it like growing up for you, did your friends know of your
>spiritual path, how did you fit in?
Actually I didn't think about it much, it was a lot of fun, and
sometimes a worry.
I had a huge family, dispersed all over the British Isle, when I was
ill and needed to rest I was sent to family in Devon and then Scotland,
and at another time, the Pennines near Manchester, wonderful country.
I had so many cousins, aunts and uncles, plus my own close family that
I never got the chance to be lonely. My younger cousin envied me my
brothers, I envied her being an only child, :)
One reason I value my personal privacy so highly is I think because I
was brought up with so many other people around.
I was really mostly raised by my Grandmother, as Mum worked as well as
dad, She taught me the majority of what I know, instilled the need to
learn and to be curious.
Mum was not much interested in magick,
A pagan family doesn't mean everyone in it is pagan, again that is a
personal choice. Mum had no great interest, though she knew the basics,
it happens like that sometimes. It skips a generation or so,
Mum was very keen to fit into what you would call the normal world, very
aware of what the neighbours might think, and if her step were white,
and her lace curtains whiter. I think she found her tomboy daughter a
trial, She was however like all women in our family very strong,
intelligent and in her case very manipulative.
We really didn't get on well, These days she is in her nineties and age
has softened her, she doesn't care what the world thinks anymore, We get
on just fine.
> How has Wicca changed as you've seen it over the years, as a cultural
>or spiritual phenomenea?
Its changed hugely, I have followed its growth from Gardners time, and
its not really the same path. The differences are huge, much of the
emphasis on sex for sex sake has gone, though pagans generally are far
more open about sexuality , Wicca was at its start a great excuse for
orgy's.
Their were no ethics to speak of, and certainly the amount of ritual was
massive, and tied up with sex and S&M. The flower power people to some
extent took over the idea without actually being wiccan, they were in to
peace, sex and experience.
The HP idea is again Wiccan, I don't know any traditional pagans who
have an HP or HPs, they would respect older members of the group and in
study and training they would as elders pass their knowledge on, But
they didn't tell people how to run their lives, or what spiritual path
to walk. Mind they were great people to talk to if you had a problem.
Elders were women over fifty, usually with a good talent for magick and
teaching. They had a lot of respect but they were not involved in
calling down gods or goddesses. That seems more like Voodoo to me.
Once they were accepted as teachers by their peers, other old women, and
by their teaching group, They simply became an Elder.
But if a decision had to be made that involved the whole family, then
the whole family would make the decision, They would listen with respect
to any advice the Elders gave them, but the decision still was made by
the whole family including new apprentices. If their was no consensus
then the Elders would make the decision based on what they considered
was best for the family,
> How is what you pass on to your family different from what was taught
>to you?
I passed on what I know. My daughter is interested and has done some
work but is a carer woman,
The craft for her is just part of the family, It might be that I will
pass it on to a grandchild, or great grandchild, My son has a way with
plants that mirrors my own, Daughter as is my daughter, both are good
with people, .
My eldest grandchild in far more into computers than magick and now at
college. They know the basics but its their choice.
It will be interesting to see what happens, its only this century that
its been passed on outside the family's. But that was necessary, these
days women don't have dozens of children and grandchildren, so keeping
the craft alive meant introducing new blood as it were.
> Well I could ask more, hope you don't think this cheeky of me, but I
>can think of no one who has spoken as eloquently or as wisely over the
>years, I suppose you need your own Shez FAQs page.
I don't think its cheeky at all, I quite understand the need to know, I
am just as bad :) curiosity always got me into trouble, I suspect it
will continue to do so.
If I had not wanted to answer I would not have answered.
As for a Shez FAQs page, I shudder at the very thought. don't Threaten
me like that ;(
>~Blessings (from Tampa,Florida),
> Ariel
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
--
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Aunt. when I was a girl was a polite term for any lady who was a close
> friend of the family, Some were in fact family members, others not.
> They certainly got together, often in each others homes, but it was for
> social and teaching not for ritual.
This term is not strictly limited to British usage: it was frequently
used in the US up until perhaps the past two or three generations. My
parents referred to the terminology as "aunt by courtesy" or "uncle by
courtesy" - meaning the adults in question were too close to the family
to be Mistered and Missused but still, since they were adults and those
addressing them in that style were still children, required an honorific
of some sort.
The Dowager has a gate leg table inherited from my paternal grandmother
which is still referred to as "Aunt Dorothy's cherry-wood table" - even
though it turned out, upon evaluation, to be made of Phillipine mahogany
and held together by hand-hammered square nails.... It did belong to
The Old Man's "Aunt" Dorothy, however!
<snip>
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at
<http://www.bairdstafford.com>
Finch Evergreen
wrote:
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Aunt. when I was a girl was a polite term for any lady who was a close
>> friend of the family, Some were in fact family members, others not.
>> They certainly got together, often in each others homes, but it was for
>> social and teaching not for ritual.
>
>This term is not strictly limited to British usage: it was frequently
>used in the US up until perhaps the past two or three generations. My
>parents referred to the terminology as "aunt by courtesy" or "uncle by
>courtesy" - meaning the adults in question were too close to the family
>to be Mistered and Missused but still, since they were adults and those
>addressing them in that style were still children, required an honorific
>of some sort.
<snip>
Not limited to British OR U.S. usage either. <g>
In Spanish-speaking cultures, close family friends (adults), are
usually referred as "tio" and "tia" (uncle and aunt), especially
unmarried women and bachelors. Among Cubans, it is customary to
"adopt" unmarried, childless, and usually older friends into the
family. They are part of family reunions and other ocassions, and in
many ways, sometimes are the "tios" and "tias" we run to when we have
a problem because:
a. They don't have kids and are willing to listen
b. They are usually much better at giving advice (or their advice is
taken more willingly)
I know I have at least three "tias" to whom I am closer than some of
my real aunts. They have been part of the "family" since before I was
born, and it wasn't until I was 10 or 11 that I found out they were
not related. As luck would have it, everyone emigrated to the U.S.
around the same time in the 60's, so the "family" was kept intact.
Concidentally, it was one of these "tias" who taught me how to read
the Tarot and to develop my psychic abilities, another the properties
of healing herbs, and yet another introduced me to the joy of
literature and music.
Two have passed on, one is still with us. Because she is now old and
not as spry, we all take turns making sure they are fine, taking them
out, etc. The real aunts have their kids, Tia Marta has those of us
who learned from her.
Let's bring back the concept of "Aunts"!
Blessed Be,
Ian
Ventana
news:gsg8e7AX...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
>
> I was brought up to think magick was personal to each one who used it,
> and I have not changed my mind,
> magick is a very personal thing, and that people trying to share a
> common goal by sharing energy or magick tend to end up with little power
> for that goal, simply because everyone is different, thinks differently,
> and douse things differently.
> I would find it impossible for instance to give power to someone who was
> at the centre of a circle, having attended various circles as a guest, I
> noticed that a vast majority of the energy in fact dissipated, because
> it was aimed at one person who was supposed to be sending it on.
> I found the same thing in churches, the power would build and then
> dissipate, because it had not been used by the people who put out that
> power.
WOW! - you've just expressed a lot of my own thoughts and views very
succinctly. This is probably why I was inclined to practice solitary and
also attracted to shamanism. I do feel however, that is is possible to have
very effective group power, but IMO is rarer than what is usually out there
in practicing covens.
I have also come to conclusion that groups work best for some people than
practicing solitary and visa versa. Sometimes is not really about how
effective the magic is, but having the coven member support structure
present (which has a magic all it's own). I think it's all about what you
resonate with. The soul will always look for an avenue to achieve the next
stage of healing and growth - and that could by MANY things.
> Their are however strengths in his magick that are very male, though he
> tends to be less intuitive than women I have trained . he has strengths
> in other directions.
> I also sent him to a shaman of my acquaintance so he could learn What I
> call male magick. It worked out very well.
> I learned a lesson to, that Men can use magick and can be taught what I
> would call women's magick.
I have a question Shez. Do you believe shamanism IS male magick or more
appropriate for men? I can see how you can draw this conclusion since, in
most cultures, shamans were men. The whole process of becoming a shaman is
more direct and for lack of a better word(s) - "male-like." And for another
related question: Do you think magic is more effective when each sex has
balanced/integrated the opposite sex's aspects?
> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
> >visualisation,
> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
> >experience.
I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on the
subject of visualization.
Thanks Ariel for asking the questions. Thank you Shez for sharing your
personal life and views...very fascinating.
-V
oakwalker
Thanks
Oakwalker
"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MP6z5.358$Y5.1...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
> WOW! - you've just expressed a lot of my own thoughts and views very
> succinctly. This is probably why I was inclined to practice solitary and
> also attracted to shamanism. I do feel however, that is is possible to
have
> very effective group power, but IMO is rarer than what is usually out
there
> in practicing covens.
>
>snip<
loki
>
> I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on
the
> subject of visualization.
Eek! You are asking *Shez* this question?!?!?!? Obviously, she will answer
for herself, but as a student of hers I'd like to give my view of her
teachings as opposed to those I've run into in local Wiccan covens and other
pagan teachings encountered here in the US.
Shez is a far more demanding teacher than I have ever encountered. Her idea
of visualization is so far beyond what most folks think of that the word
almost doesn't apply.
When I thought of visualization before I met Shez, I thought of a picture in
my mind's eye. It might not have all the details in place, but the general
thought was there as was the general shape. I was in for a major lesson
when she started teaching me visualization. Her idea is very specific and
very, very detailed and quite concrete.
It has literally taken me years to learn and I got a bit of an upbraiding
during my visit as I let my abilities slip a bit in the past year. She
misses nothing. Now, understand that I was no slouch at visualization when
I started studying with her.
I had, in fact, taught visualization to others before I began studying with
Shez. Still, I need to practice daily to achieve and maintain her
expectations. Trouble is, I hadn't achieved the goal before I let what I
had slip. So, it's back to daily work for me.
Loki
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Aunt. when I was a girl was a polite term for any lady who was a close
>> friend of the family, Some were in fact family members, others not.
>> They certainly got together, often in each others homes, but it was for
>> social and teaching not for ritual.
>
>used in the US up until perhaps the past two or three generations. My
>parents referred to the terminology as "aunt by courtesy" or "uncle by
>courtesy" - meaning the adults in question were too close to the family
>to be Mistered and Missused but still, since they were adults and those
>addressing them in that style were still children, required an honorific
>of some sort.
I am glad someone else remembers that usage, When I was younger, I
thought all the Aunts were Moms sisters, or Gran's sister's, :)
It was quite a few years before I twigged, I had quite a few Great
Aunts, and Aunts that were really related, and a couple of dozen who
were not.
>
>The Dowager has a gate leg table inherited from my paternal grandmother
>which is still referred to as "Aunt Dorothy's cherry-wood table" - even
>though it turned out, upon evaluation, to be made of Phillipine mahogany
>and held together by hand-hammered square nails.... It did belong to
>The Old Man's "Aunt" Dorothy, however!
My Mum is better known to the whole family as "The Great Dragon of the
North," She accepts it with pride these days, My husband gave her the
nickname after a few years of mums heavy handed Machinations.
She had in her younger days a turn of phrase that could blister paint :)
They get on well these days, they even tease each other,
My pride and joy is My grandmothers small oil painting of Scotland, its
beautiful. Some of the things I have go back to the 18th century and
earlier, China, fire dogs, Chinese bowls, a Half grandfather, silver
cutlery, and with what we got from Mum in law when she passed on, my
house is full of old things. Including oil paintings. Some of it I
loath, and its packed away, some I love, and its always out.
One thing I love above all the others though is a small vase, it
belonged to my Gran and was always on her mantelpiece, She got it from
her mother, the vase is paper thin porcelain made to look like dripping
water with Koi carp swimming around it, its small and fragile it takes
me back years and generations whenever I look at it, Its priceless as
far as memory's go, though I doubt if its worth much in monetary terms.
>
>
><snip>
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
Shez
<j...@san.rr.com> writes
>practicing solitary and visa versa. Sometimes is not really about how
>effective the magic is, but having the coven member support structure
>present (which has a magic all it's own). I think it's all about what you
>resonate with. The soul will always look for an avenue to achieve the next
>stage of healing and growth - and that could by MANY things.
Groups or circles can be very good support mechanism, and even though I
have never taught or used magick in a group, I can understand how
important it is for some people to be part of a stable structure,
Some of my own students find that support structure to be just what they
needed. For me at least magick wont work if dissipated in a circle, for
others it might, though I have never seen it work, and I have visited
with quite a few circles, and at a weekend in America where their was a
major circle.
Basically it comes down to whatever works best for you.
>
>> Their are however strengths in his magick that are very male, though he
>> tends to be less intuitive than women I have trained . he has strengths
>> in other directions.
>> I also sent him to a shaman of my acquaintance so he could learn What I
>> call male magick. It worked out very well.
>> I learned a lesson to, that Men can use magick and can be taught what I
>> would call women's magick.
>
>I have a question Shez. Do you believe shamanism IS male magick or more
>appropriate for men?
No. After having trained a man, I came to the conclusion that it was
society that made those differences not men and women, it just wasn't
done for a man to be a witch or a woman a magician.
Shamans can be of either sex, If you take the time to look at some of
the other shamanic cultures in this world, then you would be delighted
to find that women Shamans were just as respected and as powerful as
men.
> I can see how you can draw this conclusion since, in
>most cultures, shamans were men. The whole process of becoming a shaman is
>more direct and for lack of a better word(s) - "male-like." And for another
>related question: Do you think magic is more effective when each sex has
>balanced/integrated the opposite sex's aspects?
I cant answer about the balanced, integrated aspects, I was brought up
with women of power, to use what I can only term women's magick,
My Student taught me that magick is something that can be learned by
either sex, and much of the wall that has been built between the sexes
is simply a social wall, not an actual wall.
But I still practice magick as I was taught, I suspect that magick is
something that has no gender,
That is a question that your generation is going to have to answer, not
mine,
I know not all men can cope with being trained by women and using
women's magick, but some can.
As the years go by and this becomes a less patriarchal society, perhaps
men will not feel that they have to be in charge, or that they should
have the power over women.
If that happens then yes I think men will and can learn women's magick,
and women will learn men's magick. I am a bit to old now to start
learning shamanism, :)
>
>> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
>> >visualisation,
>> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
>> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
>> >experience.
>
>I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on the
>subject of visualization.
I am working on it,
>
>
>Thanks Ariel for asking the questions. Thank you Shez for sharing your
>personal life and views...very fascinating.
My pleasure.
>
>-V
Shez
<lo...@inlink.com> writes
>"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote
>>
>> I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on
>the
>> subject of visualization.
>
Well I warned you I was a tough teacher (grin ) besides its so easy to
practice, its very relaxing, you can do it when you go to bed, or when
you have a few moments to spare.
Your a good student, and now you have even more homework, and more
visualisation I wouldn't push you if you hadn't got the ability. :)
Baird Stafford
> Forgive my ignorance<g> but what is IMO in the context given?
IMO = "In My Opinion"
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> One thing I love above all the others though is a small vase, it
> belonged to my Gran and was always on her mantelpiece, She got it from
> her mother, the vase is paper thin porcelain made to look like dripping
> water with Koi carp swimming around it, its small and fragile it takes
> me back years and generations whenever I look at it, Its priceless as
> far as memory's go, though I doubt if its worth much in monetary terms.
Umph. Don't bet on it. I've a very small decorative urn (again
inherited through the Stafford line), originally one of a pair, with a
sort of beehive hallmark that I *finally* traced back to the pottery
that produced Royal Vienna wares, this version dating from the late
eighteenth century. Even as a singleton, the durn thing is worth more
than I ever thought possible....
Blessed be,
Baird
who finds history even more fascinating when he can handle objects the
Old Ones used....
Daven
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1ehfybc.dbfs4e89vcegN%ba...@gate.net...
> oakwalker <oakw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Forgive my ignorance<g> but what is IMO in the context given?
>
> IMO = "In My Opinion"
and some coralarites to that are:
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMOHO = In My Own Humble Opinion
IMOO = In My Own Opinion
and so on...
Daven
Ventana
loki <lo...@inlink.com> wrote in message
news:Xy8z5.179$R04....@news1.primary.net...
> "Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote
> >
> > I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on
> the
> > subject of visualization.
>
> Eek! You are asking *Shez* this question?!?!?!? Obviously, she will
answer
> for herself, but as a student of hers I'd like to give my view of her
> teachings as opposed to those I've run into in local Wiccan covens and
other
> pagan teachings encountered here in the US.
I am not sure why you are surprised that I am asking this. Just a simple
request that I am sure she will answer appropriately for this medium.
> Shez is a far more demanding teacher than I have ever encountered. Her
idea
> of visualization is so far beyond what most folks think of that the word
> almost doesn't apply.
I figured as much. Let's hope she'll share some of her *idea* .
-V
Ventana
<snip>
> Groups or circles can be very good support mechanism, and even though I
> have never taught or used magick in a group, I can understand how
> important it is for some people to be part of a stable structure,
>
> Some of my own students find that support structure to be just what they
> needed. For me at least magick wont work if dissipated in a circle, for
> others it might, though I have never seen it work, and I have visited
> with quite a few circles, and at a weekend in America where their was a
> major circle.
> Basically it comes down to whatever works best for you.
Agreed, as previously stated. I think, as I've been on this newsgroup and
having read your recent post, that I have a clearer understanding why I had
a hard time going past dedication in my circle. The group structure doesn't
work for me in regard to magic. I am still open to the concept, but it
would have to be a very different circle for me to stay with it. I always
felt guilty and a few made me feel guilty that I wasn't *moving* on to the
next level (1st Degree). I kept trying and trying, but deep down I had a
hard time fitting in. I examined my own intent over and over again,
thinking I was committment phobic. Not true, in comparison to other parts
of my life. Anyway, after 4 years since being involved with that circle,
I've come to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me. That's all.
> >> Their are however strengths in his magick that are very male, though he
> >> tends to be less intuitive than women I have trained . he has strengths
> >> in other directions.
> >> I also sent him to a shaman of my acquaintance so he could learn What
I
> >> call male magick. It worked out very well.
> >> I learned a lesson to, that Men can use magick and can be taught what I
> >> would call women's magick.
What would you define as "male magick"??? How, after learning male magic,
can a man do "women's magick"? Maybe this is not what you meant, but it
sounds like an interesting topic. I have my own opinions on this (or course
not tainted by my own run-ins with men ;-), but wanted to get a little more
insight into yours.
> >I have a question Shez. Do you believe shamanism IS male magick or more
> >appropriate for men?
>
> No. After having trained a man, I came to the conclusion that it was
> society that made those differences not men and women, it just wasn't
> done for a man to be a witch or a woman a magician.
> Shamans can be of either sex, If you take the time to look at some of
> the other shamanic cultures in this world, then you would be delighted
> to find that women Shamans were just as respected and as powerful as
> men.
Agreed. At the core, I've always believe both men and women can achieve
anything, mentally, physically, spiritually. It is the cultural
socialization and our own attachment to it that creates the walls and
boundaries.
This belief has been my beacon of light and has taught me some very, very,
hard and what I would call *excrutiating* lessons. You know, the ones that
make you truly appreciate the following saying: "Ignorance is Bliss". ;-)
I will have to read up more on the female shamans - sounds fascinating. I
need to finish the two books I have started already.
> > I can see how you can draw this conclusion since, in
> >most cultures, shamans were men. The whole process of becoming a shaman
is
> >more direct and for lack of a better word(s) - "male-like." And for
another
> >related question: Do you think magic is more effective when each sex has
> >balanced/integrated the opposite sex's aspects?
>
> I cant answer about the balanced, integrated aspects, I was brought up
> with women of power, to use what I can only term women's magick,
> My Student taught me that magick is something that can be learned by
> either sex, and much of the wall that has been built between the sexes
> is simply a social wall, not an actual wall.
Wow, what a concept! Modeling of powerful women. I can't even fathom that.
As much as I love my mother and she has some very good points, she was not
what I would call a strong women. My sister and I sometime wonder what our
lives would have been like is she was different. Ha! Maybe it would have
been worse! We always think the grass is greener on the other side.
> But I still practice magick as I was taught, I suspect that magick is
> something that has no gender,
> That is a question that your generation is going to have to answer, not
> mine,
> I know not all men can cope with being trained by women and using
> women's magick, but some can.
> As the years go by and this becomes a less patriarchal society, perhaps
> men will not feel that they have to be in charge, or that they should
> have the power over women.
I believe that core magic has no gender. The application may be more suited
for use by either sex. Your point about the next generation having to deal
with gender blind magic and other social issues is very true. From my own
experience, I am trying to raise my son to a strong and responsible man (in
all aspects, not just the obviously male ones). I still see aspects to his
personality that are patriarchal and he knows how I feel about this. We
jokingly argue about this all the time. Like the times he wants to push my
*feminist mother* buttons by jokingly saying "Woman, cook my grub." I've
had to go on *stike* a few times to *help him put things back in
perspective*. I think that deep down he doesn't really believe some or all
of this. When I see him in action with the opposite sex he acts totally
different and treats his girlfriends with a lot of respect. Of course, time
will tell if this will last. I only hope so.
> If that happens then yes I think men will and can learn women's magick,
> and women will learn men's magick.
Now what millennium are we talking about? Just kidding...
>I am a bit to old now to start learning shamanism, :)
Oh come on Shez, you are very effective at visualization - that's half the
*journey*! ;-)
> >> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
> >> >visualisation,
> >> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
> >> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
> >> >experience.
Yes, I know this well from my own experience. I think it also requires a
certain amount of discipline and focus to keep the *learning* active. I am
sure this is a big challenge for most people, especially during certain
periods of their lives when we just don't *feel* like doing it.
> >I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on
the
> >subject of visualization.
>
> I am working on it,
Great! Thanks.
-V
oakwalker
It's obvious once you know isn't it :-)
Oakwalker
"Daven" <da...@priest.com> wrote in message
news:8yqz5.2527$P4.6...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
>
> Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
> news:1ehfybc.dbfs4e89vcegN%ba...@gate.net...
> > oakwalker <oakw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Forgive my ignorance<g> but what is IMO in the context given?
> >
> > IMO = "In My Opinion"
>
> and some coralarites to that are:
>
> IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
> IMOHO = In My Own Humble Opinion
> IMOO = In My Own Opinion
>
> and so on...
>
> Daven
>
>
> >
Aeseker
"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in >
> We
> jokingly argue about this all the time. Like the times he wants to push my
> *feminist mother* buttons by jokingly saying "Woman, cook my grub." I've
> had to go on *stike* a few times to *help him put things back in
> perspective*.
Tell him you will cook once he goes to the grocery store and "hunts" the food.
<grin>
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
Ventana
news:uoxz5.1252$wi1.4...@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in >
>
> > We
> > jokingly argue about this all the time. Like the times he wants to push
my
> > *feminist mother* buttons by jokingly saying "Woman, cook my grub."
I've
> > had to go on *stike* a few times to *help him put things back in
> > perspective*.
>
food.
> <grin>
He actually had to do that when I broke my foot last year. All I heard was
whining....
-V
manra...@my-deja.com
> As for a Shez FAQs page, I shudder at the very thought. don't Threaten
> me like that ;(
sharing so much. It is always a delight and pleasure to read your
words, I find such heart, wisdom and good spirit in them. Ok, ok, no
Shez FAQs page, but you really should consider writing a book you know.
~Big Hug,
Shez
<j...@san.rr.com> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:JOGeOaC0$Tz5...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
>
><snip>
>
>> Groups or circles can be very good support mechanism, and even though I
>> have never taught or used magick in a group, I can understand how
>> important it is for some people to be part of a stable structure,
>>
>> Some of my own students find that support structure to be just what they
>> needed. For me at least magick wont work if dissipated in a circle, for
>> others it might, though I have never seen it work, and I have visited
>> with quite a few circles, and at a weekend in America where their was a
>> major circle.
>> Basically it comes down to whatever works best for you.
>
>Agreed, as previously stated. I think, as I've been on this newsgroup and
>having read your recent post, that I have a clearer understanding why I had
>a hard time going past dedication in my circle. The group structure doesn't
>work for me in regard to magic. I am still open to the concept, but it
>would have to be a very different circle for me to stay with it. I always
>felt guilty and a few made me feel guilty that I wasn't *moving* on to the
>next level (1st Degree). I kept trying and trying, but deep down I had a
>hard time fitting in. I examined my own intent over and over again,
>thinking I was committment phobic. Not true, in comparison to other parts
>of my life. Anyway, after 4 years since being involved with that circle,
>I've come to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me. That's all.
Not everyone works well in groups, I find most pagans enjoy the social
side of groups, and the learning side, but a suprising amount seem to be
happy working alone, as far as magick goes,
That is the structure I was brought up with, that those who use magick
work alone, and get together for social and teaching reason
>
>> >> Their are however strengths in his magick that are very male, though he
>> >> tends to be less intuitive than women I have trained . he has strengths
>> >> in other directions.
>> >> I also sent him to a shaman of my acquaintance so he could learn What
>I
>> >> call male magick. It worked out very well.
>> >> I learned a lesson to, that Men can use magick and can be taught what I
>> >> would call women's magick.
>
>What would you define as "male magick"???
Ceremonial mostly, very ritualised magick that has no place for
intuition.
Shamanism however has room for intuition its not as ritualised
> How, after learning male magic,
>can a man do "women's magick"?
I don't know, I think perhaps that some of them can, I believe Baird has
said that he uses both ritual and intuitive magick. If I read him right
then he is managing to do both.
My student learned women's magick first, and later what I refer to as
men's magick.
> Maybe this is not what you meant, but it
>sounds like an interesting topic. I have my own opinions on this (or course
>not tainted by my own run-ins with men ;-), but wanted to get a little more
>insight into yours.
>
>> >I have a question Shez. Do you believe shamanism IS male magick or more
>> >appropriate for men?
>>
>> No. After having trained a man, I came to the conclusion that it was
>> society that made those differences not men and women, it just wasn't
>> done for a man to be a witch or a woman a magician.
>> Shamans can be of either sex, If you take the time to look at some of
>> the other shamanic cultures in this world, then you would be delighted
>> to find that women Shamans were just as respected and as powerful as
>> men.
>
>Agreed. At the core, I've always believe both men and women can achieve
>anything, mentally, physically, spiritually. It is the cultural
>socialization and our own attachment to it that creates the walls and
>boundaries.
>This belief has been my beacon of light and has taught me some very, very,
>hard and what I would call *excrutiating* lessons. You know, the ones that
>make you truly appreciate the following saying: "Ignorance is Bliss". ;-)
I know exactly what you mean. (Grin) I suspect a lot of people who are
reading this will understand to, :)
>
>I will have to read up more on the female shamans - sounds fascinating. I
>need to finish the two books I have started already.
>
>> > I can see how you can draw this conclusion since, in
>> >most cultures, shamans were men. The whole process of becoming a shaman
>is
>> >more direct and for lack of a better word(s) - "male-like." And for
>another
>> >related question: Do you think magic is more effective when each sex has
>> >balanced/integrated the opposite sex's aspects?
>>
>> I cant answer about the balanced, integrated aspects, I was brought up
>> with women of power, to use what I can only term women's magick,
>> My Student taught me that magick is something that can be learned by
>> either sex, and much of the wall that has been built between the sexes
>> is simply a social wall, not an actual wall.
>
>Wow, what a concept! Modeling of powerful women. I can't even fathom that.
>As much as I love my mother and she has some very good points, she was not
>what I would call a strong women. My sister and I sometime wonder what our
>lives would have been like is she was different. Ha! Maybe it would have
>been worse! We always think the grass is greener on the other side.
True, Though strong women in a family do make for strong women
generally.
I learned that women were far more powerful than society allowed them to
be.
Today women who go into space, or engineer a bridge would not be seen as
all that unusual, but then The little woman was supposed to stay at home
and manage the family. :)
I think their is a lot of truth in the saying, "Great men, had great
women standing behind them "
>
>> But I still practice magick as I was taught, I suspect that magick is
>> something that has no gender,
>> That is a question that your generation is going to have to answer, not
>> mine,
>> I know not all men can cope with being trained by women and using
>> women's magick, but some can.
>> As the years go by and this becomes a less patriarchal society, perhaps
>> men will not feel that they have to be in charge, or that they should
>> have the power over women.
>
>I believe that core magic has no gender. The application may be more suited
>for use by either sex. Your point about the next generation having to deal
>with gender blind magic and other social issues is very true. From my own
>experience, I am trying to raise my son to a strong and responsible man (in
>all aspects, not just the obviously male ones). I still see aspects to his
>personality that are patriarchal and he knows how I feel about this. We
>jokingly argue about this all the time. Like the times he wants to push my
>*feminist mother* buttons by jokingly saying "Woman, cook my grub." I've
>had to go on *stike* a few times to *help him put things back in
I solved the problem by teaching my son and daughter how to run a house,
cook, iron, wash, look after someone who was ill, make a shelf, dig a
garden, repair a radio, and paint and wallpaper a room.
My son is not in the least patriarchal, both he and my daughter pat me
on the head, and say Hi little mum (Grrrrrr)
>perspective*. I think that deep down he doesn't really believe some or all
>of this. When I see him in action with the opposite sex he acts totally
>different and treats his girlfriends with a lot of respect. Of course, time
>will tell if this will last. I only hope so.
Make sure the girl who gets him, doesn't have to run after him :)
I cant think of anything sadder than a man who has no idea how to look
after himself and expects some woman to do it for him.
I always blame the Mother, If she had taught him properly he would be
able to go out in the world fully capable of looking after himself. And
the girl that gets him would appreciate that.
>
>> If that happens then yes I think men will and can learn women's magick,
>> and women will learn men's magick.
>
>Now what millennium are we talking about? Just kidding...
>
>
>>I am a bit to old now to start learning shamanism, :)
>
>Oh come on Shez, you are very effective at visualization - that's half the
>*journey*! ;-)
True, but I have so much to learn still in my own magick, that I don't
have the time to study any others, I found the time to study wicca, and
other spiritual paths years ago, but Shamanism is a very different
path.
You only think you have all the time in the world when your 16. Once you
hit thirty you know better (grin ) once you hit my age, you know how
very limited the time you have left is.
>
>
>> >> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
>> >> >visualisation,
>> >> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need to
>> >> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
>> >> >experience.
>
>Yes, I know this well from my own experience. I think it also requires a
>certain amount of discipline and focus to keep the *learning* active. I am
>sure this is a big challenge for most people, especially during certain
>periods of their lives when we just don't *feel* like doing it.
I found it easiest to do the practice when I went to bed, it helps you
sleep as well as keeping you sharp.
>
>
>> >I too would be interested in any information you could share with us on
>the
>> >subject of visualization.
>>
>> I am working on it,
>
>Great! Thanks.
>
>-V
>
--
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> One thing I love above all the others though is a small vase, it
>> belonged to my Gran and was always on her mantelpiece, She got it from
>> her mother, the vase is paper thin porcelain made to look like dripping
>> water with Koi carp swimming around it, its small and fragile it takes
>> me back years and generations whenever I look at it, Its priceless as
>> far as memory's go, though I doubt if its worth much in monetary terms.
>
>Umph. Don't bet on it. I've a very small decorative urn (again
>inherited through the Stafford line), originally one of a pair, with a
>sort of beehive hallmark that I *finally* traced back to the pottery
>that produced Royal Vienna wares, this version dating from the late
>eighteenth century. Even as a singleton, the durn thing is worth more
>than I ever thought possible....
My little vase is what's known as a faring, it was bought or won at a
fair in or around 1850.
My small painting of Scotland however is worth a lot, but its to
beautiful to sell, Lots of things that I have are worth quite a lot of
money, But they are worth more in memory's.
>Blessed be,
>Baird
>who finds history even more fascinating when he can handle objects the
>Old Ones used....
Oh I agree, I am a history nut, and some of the things I have handled
have been 2000 or more years old. Including a small clay oil lamp from
roman times, which I own, they are not that rare in this area,
I also filled it with olive oil, a mullein wick and lit it one night,
for a moment I was back in a Roman kitchen with the lady of the house
preparing food, it only lasted a second or two, but its one of my
loveliest memories,
The lamp looks like new, the oil soaked into the clay and its shiny and
beautiful. It must look now as it looked when it was in use in roman
times.
Touching places that are older than recorded history is not difficult in
Britain:)
Aeseker
"Shez" <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> Oh I agree, I am a history nut, and some of the things I have handled
> have been 2000 or more years old. Including a small clay oil lamp from
> roman times, which I own, they are not that rare in this area,
> I also filled it with olive oil, a mullein wick and lit it one night,
> for a moment I was back in a Roman kitchen with the lady of the house
> preparing food, it only lasted a second or two, but its one of my
> loveliest memories,
> The lamp looks like new, the oil soaked into the clay and its shiny and
> beautiful. It must look now as it looked when it was in use in roman
> times.
>
> Touching places that are older than recorded history is not difficult in
> Britain:)
> >
> --
> Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
> The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
I get the same kinds of feelings when I handle old artifacts like arrowheads.
When you look at them closely, you can imagine what it was like to create them,
chipping away bit by bit until it was ready. I doubt if the person creating it
ever imagined that their work would be seen by others so far in the future. I
do a lot of handcrafts (well used to when I had time for it) and I made sure
that every piece that I did was the best I could do and signed and dated. I
like to imagine that someday, something I made might become someone's treasure
and that they will look at the piece and wonder who I was and what I was
thinking when I made it. Kind of a wish for immortality I guess.
Places like the Grand Canyon just blow my mind. To think that you can walk over
to the bank, pick out a loose rock and you are holding in your hands something
that was made millions of years ago. Maybe that is why I am so attracted to
crystals and rocks, there is a longevity about them that I don't usually get
from trees. Though the redwoods in Sequoia National Park were pretty intense.
In Arizona, we have some Joshua trees that are over 1000 years old and they grow
in the harshest of conditions. They lasted through drought, flooding, wind,
hail, even sometimes snow. When I need an example of perserverance, that is
what I think of.
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
Ventana
....
> ><snip>
> That is the structure I was brought up with, that those who use magick
> work alone, and get together for social and teaching reason
That sounds similar to what I am looking for here in San Diego. I'll keep
searching....Even though I am studying shamanism, I would still like to keep
connected to Wicca.
<snip>
> > How, after learning male magic,
> >can a man do "women's magick"?
>
> I don't know, I think perhaps that some of them can, I believe Baird has
> said that he uses both ritual and intuitive magick. If I read him right
> then he is managing to do both.
> My student learned women's magick first, and later what I refer to as
> men's magick.
Oh, I thought I read in your previous post that the man studied men's magick
first, then women's. I guess I should read that one again...
> I think their is a lot of truth in the saying, "Great men, had great
> women standing behind them "
Or visa versa. At least it's starting moving in that direction.
> >I believe that core magic has no gender. The application may be more
suited
> >for use by either sex. Your point about the next generation having to
deal
> >with gender blind magic and other social issues is very true. From my
own
> >experience, I am trying to raise my son to a strong and responsible man
(in
> >all aspects, not just the obviously male ones). I still see aspects to
his
> >personality that are patriarchal and he knows how I feel about this. We
> >jokingly argue about this all the time. Like the times he wants to push
my
> >*feminist mother* buttons by jokingly saying "Woman, cook my grub." I've
> >had to go on *stike* a few times to *help him put things back in
>
> I solved the problem by teaching my son and daughter how to run a house,
> cook, iron, wash, look after someone who was ill, make a shelf, dig a
> garden, repair a radio, and paint and wallpaper a room.
> My son is not in the least patriarchal, both he and my daughter pat me
> on the head, and say Hi little mum (Grrrrrr)
Yes, I've taught my son to do his laundry, unload the dishwaser, emptry the
trash, take care of the cat. That's about it. He is a MAJOR computer geek
and is alway tinkering with his computer. I suspect he is not really that
partiarchal. He is not the *sensitive* type guy either. He's somewhere in
between. He is really just blooming into adulthood so time will make things
clearer.
> >perspective*. I think that deep down he doesn't really believe some or
all
> >of this. When I see him in action with the opposite sex he acts totally
> >different and treats his girlfriends with a lot of respect. Of course,
time
> >will tell if this will last. I only hope so.
>
> Make sure the girl who gets him, doesn't have to run after him :)
> I cant think of anything sadder than a man who has no idea how to look
> after himself and expects some woman to do it for him.
> I always blame the Mother, If she had taught him properly he would be
> able to go out in the world fully capable of looking after himself. And
> the girl that gets him would appreciate that.
The timely is so appropriate on what you wrote above. We were just having
that talk a few days ago. It was in regard to a rebate on a computer item
he bought. He wanted me to fill out the form, envelope, etc. It told him
he needs to start doing these things for himself and when he's grown he
shouldn't be expecting me or his girlfriend to do these things for him. It
is still on the nightstand in his room. He'll break down eventually. It's
money after all....
But I totally agree with this. Will make for much more harmonious
relationships in the future.
AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on my
soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to divorced
couples.
> >Oh come on Shez, you are very effective at visualization - that's half
the
> >*journey*! ;-)
>
> True, but I have so much to learn still in my own magick, that I don't
> have the time to study any others, I found the time to study wicca, and
> other spiritual paths years ago, but Shamanism is a very different
> path.
> You only think you have all the time in the world when your 16. Once you
> hit thirty you know better (grin ) once you hit my age, you know how
> very limited the time you have left is.
I'm 41 and have started to feel my time is limited already. When my son is
independent and on his own (fingers crossed), I think I might travel to
Europe on a month or so vacation. Then I am thinking of moving out of So.
Cal. Can't take it anymore...The clock is ticking on my plans.....
> >> >> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
> >> >> >visualisation,
> >> >> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need
to
> >> >> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
> >> >> >experience.
> >
> >Yes, I know this well from my own experience. I think it also requires a
> >certain amount of discipline and focus to keep the *learning* active. I
am
> >sure this is a big challenge for most people, especially during certain
> >periods of their lives when we just don't *feel* like doing it.
>
> I found it easiest to do the practice when I went to bed, it helps you
> sleep as well as keeping you sharp.
Actually that's what I end up doing. Mostly because I am not disciplined
enough to set aside a structured time.
-V
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> I get the same kinds of feelings when I handle old artifacts like
> arrowheads. When you look at them closely, you can imagine what it was
> like to create them, chipping away bit by bit until it was ready. I doubt
> if the person creating it ever imagined that their work would be seen by
> others so far in the future.
Arrowheads don't do all that much for me: I find them rather
impersonal. I finally understood why when I watched an experienced
knapper at work - he worked rather after the fashion of a one-man
assembly line. Also, of course, projectile points weren't handled all
that much: they were put in their places and, once placed on their
shafts and fletched (if applicable) seldom touched directly again.
The Old Man, however, was an amateur (by economic necessity, not by
training) archaeologist, however, and he and the Dowager spent frequent
weekends in the desert southwest on surface-collecting expeditions. I
have in one of my closets an enormous collection of broken crockery,
some painted and some not. Touching those old sherds that were not only
made with loving care but were used daily during their "lifetimes" is
enough to cause shivers up and down my back....
Blessed be,
Baird
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Ceremonial mostly, very ritualised magick that has no place for
> intuition.
This is perhaps true of the Outer Orders of those Ceremonial groups with
which I'm familiar (the Outer Orders are teaching devices, supposedly -
the theory is that one should learn the stuff thoroughly first, *then*
start playing with it!) but definitely not of the Inner Orders.
<snip>
Aeseker
"energy" feeling that I get from arrowheads, more a time feeling, like I am
holding a piece of history and that makes the past more real somehow. Pretty
much anything old does that to me. I got yelled at in a Colonial museum once
for trying to touch a dresser. Now I know better, oils from the hands can cause
the finish to deteriorate. It wasn't even a conscious move, the finish on the
dresser just looked so satiny smooth and I knew someone had spent a lot of time
on it and I just wanted to feel that connection. Good thing I don't spend much
time in antique shops! I have never touched something old that was in daily
use, I will definitely have to try it.
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
"Baird Stafford" <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1ehjnkk.xuy9paeilskxN%ba...@gate.net...
Gale
wrote:
(snip)
>
>Yes, I've taught my son to do his laundry, unload the dishwaser, emptry the
I've got to quit trying to read at this hour of the morning. I
was certain you'd written that you'd taught the cat to do the
laundry.
Blessed Be,
Gale
http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html (original
Tarot, poetry, fiction)
ga...@arwm.net
modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
manra...@my-deja.com
> use, I will definitely have to try it.
>
> --
> Aeseker
with the fact I'm an artist probably explains why my hands are so
sensitive. Anyways whenever I'm with something really old that's behind
museum glass I just open my palm chakras up and connect that way.
Preferably when no ones watching, don't really need to touch the glass,
just lightly scan around them and some relics just are so full of
energy you can feel them from across the room. I'll generally close my
eyes and just see what comes through. Sorta semi-detached psychometry.
It's a lot more interesting than those little headphones they give you
at the start of the tour.
~Blessed be,
Aeseker
Preferably on a miserable, wet, drizzly afternoon. My chakras are so clogged up
at the moment I probably couldn't feel anything if it came right out and zapped
me. Cleansing them is on my list of things I need to do, like eat right,
exercise, meditate, get a good night's sleep, visualization exercises, etc. Boy
these containers we dwell in take a lot of work, isn't there a hassle free model
or one with a better warranty?
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
<manra...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8qrodu$66$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Shez
<Aes...@ATYahoo.com> writes
>I'll have to keep my eyes open more when I walk in the desert. It isn't a
>"energy" feeling that I get from arrowheads, more a time feeling, like I am
>holding a piece of history and that makes the past more real somehow. Pretty
>much anything old does that to me. I got yelled at in a Colonial museum once
>for trying to touch a dresser. Now I know better, oils from the hands can
>cause
>the finish to deteriorate. It wasn't even a conscious move, the finish on the
>dresser just looked so satiny smooth and I knew someone had spent a lot of time
>on it and I just wanted to feel that connection. Good thing I don't spend much
>use, I will definitely have to try it.
If you find something that old, then touch with the back of your hand or
fingers, that way the oils on your skin don't damage the surface,
That is also how you should stroke birds, with the back of the hand,
Human skin oils are bad for bird feathers, and cause them problems,
>
>--
>Aeseker
>www.arwm-studygroup.com
>
>
>"Baird Stafford" <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
>news:1ehjnkk.xuy9paeilskxN%ba...@gate.net...
--
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Aeseker <Aes...@ATYahoo.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I get the same kinds of feelings when I handle old artifacts like
>> arrowheads. When you look at them closely, you can imagine what it was
>> like to create them, chipping away bit by bit until it was ready. I doubt
>> if the person creating it ever imagined that their work would be seen by
>> others so far in the future.
>
>Arrowheads don't do all that much for me: I find them rather
>impersonal. I finally understood why when I watched an experienced
>knapper at work - he worked rather after the fashion of a one-man
>assembly line. Also, of course, projectile points weren't handled all
>that much: they were put in their places and, once placed on their
>shafts and fletched (if applicable) seldom touched directly again.
>
>The Old Man, however, was an amateur (by economic necessity, not by
>training) archaeologist, however, and he and the Dowager spent frequent
>weekends in the desert southwest on surface-collecting expeditions. I
>have in one of my closets an enormous collection of broken crockery,
>some painted and some not. Touching those old sherds that were not only
>made with loving care but were used daily during their "lifetimes" is
>enough to cause shivers up and down my back....
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
>
>
points, what they call elf shot around here, occasionally you find an
obsidian arrow head as well. They were hand knapped and obviously used
again and again, if they could be found,
They do speak, and they are older than any monolith in this country.
They speak of the hunt, and of the men that made them, slowly and
carefully chipping away tiny flakes to make just this one arrowhead.
Shez
>
>> As for a Shez FAQs page, I shudder at the very thought. don't Threaten
>> me like that ;(
>sharing so much. It is always a delight and pleasure to read your
>words, I find such heart, wisdom and good spirit in them. Ok, ok, no
>Shez FAQs page, but you really should consider writing a book you know.
>~Big Hug,
> Ariel
I am working on a Traditional British Herbal, something that I would
enjoy doing. But its going to take quite a few years :)
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
--
Shez
<j...@san.rr.com> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:JJ6m3VA5...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
>....
>
>> ><snip>
>
>> That is the structure I was brought up with, that those who use magick
>> work alone, and get together for social and teaching reason
>
>That sounds similar to what I am looking for here in San Diego. I'll keep
>searching....Even though I am studying shamanism, I would still like to keep
>connected to Wicca.
That I can understand, although I am pagan not wiccan, I enjoy talking
to wiccans,
>
><snip>
>
>> > How, after learning male magic,
>> >can a man do "women's magick"?
>>
>> I don't know, I think perhaps that some of them can, I believe Baird has
>> said that he uses both ritual and intuitive magick. If I read him right
>> then he is managing to do both.
>> My student learned women's magick first, and later what I refer to as
>> men's magick.
>
>Oh, I thought I read in your previous post that the man studied men's magick
>first, then women's. I guess I should read that one again...
Sorry if I gave that impression, it was several years into his training
before he got to study with a shaman. He did well, I am going to suggest
that one or two of the women also learn shamanism. I think it would be
good to see how the two different systems work .
>
>> I think their is a lot of truth in the saying, "Great men, had great
>> women standing behind them "
>
>Or visa versa. At least it's starting moving in that direction.
Yes, but when I think of a strong woman, I remember Mrs Thatcher, and
her wimp of a husband Dennis who always had his nose in a bottle of Gin.
(Grin )
>
Snip
>>
>
>>
>> Make sure the girl who gets him, doesn't have to run after him :)
>> I cant think of anything sadder than a man who has no idea how to look
>> after himself and expects some woman to do it for him.
>> I always blame the Mother, If she had taught him properly he would be
>> able to go out in the world fully capable of looking after himself. And
>> the girl that gets him would appreciate that.
>
>The timely is so appropriate on what you wrote above. We were just having
>that talk a few days ago. It was in regard to a rebate on a computer item
>he bought. He wanted me to fill out the form, envelope, etc. It told him
>he needs to start doing these things for himself and when he's grown he
>shouldn't be expecting me or his girlfriend to do these things for him. It
>is still on the nightstand in his room. He'll break down eventually. It's
>money after all....
Oh he will break down once he realises that he is missing out, You had
better also tell him that usually returns have a time limitation, if its
still their in a month they might not accept it as a return. :)
>
>But I totally agree with this. Will make for much more harmonious
>relationships in the future.
Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
companion, rather than a substitute mother.
>
>AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on my
>soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to divorced
>couples.
Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
with gets tired of having to run around after him.
>
>> >Oh come on Shez, you are very effective at visualization - that's half
>the
>> >*journey*! ;-)
>>
>> True, but I have so much to learn still in my own magick, that I don't
>> have the time to study any others, I found the time to study wicca, and
>> other spiritual paths years ago, but Shamanism is a very different
>> path.
>> You only think you have all the time in the world when your 16. Once you
>> hit thirty you know better (grin ) once you hit my age, you know how
>> very limited the time you have left is.
>
>I'm 41 and have started to feel my time is limited already. When my son is
>independent and on his own (fingers crossed), I think I might travel to
>Europe on a month or so vacation. Then I am thinking of moving out of So.
>Cal. Can't take it anymore...The clock is ticking on my plans.....
(Chuckle) When your sixty odd, that seems a little more urgent. Funnily
enough I do feel I have basically done what I was meant to do, though I
will never stop working, I don't have that drive to complete something
in my life anymore, its rather nice actually. :)
>
>> >> >> >> I have in fact for many years trained people how to use
>> >> >> >visualisation,
>> >> >> >> and how to control it. So its not new to me. But people also need
>to
>> >> >> >> understand its a very long term, not a short term learning
>> >> >> >experience.
>> >
>> >Yes, I know this well from my own experience. I think it also requires a
>> >certain amount of discipline and focus to keep the *learning* active. I
>am
>> >sure this is a big challenge for most people, especially during certain
>> >periods of their lives when we just don't *feel* like doing it.
>>
>> I found it easiest to do the practice when I went to bed, it helps you
>> sleep as well as keeping you sharp.
>
>Actually that's what I end up doing. Mostly because I am not disciplined
>enough to set aside a structured time.
>
But just as you go to bed, is a structured time, its often the best
time, you can relax, and let the day go, before facing tomorrow, I don't
sleep well , So that exercise in fact helps me to relax and sleep.
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Ceremonial mostly, very ritualised magick that has no place for
>> intuition.
>
>This is perhaps true of the Outer Orders of those Ceremonial groups with
>which I'm familiar (the Outer Orders are teaching devices, supposedly -
>the theory is that one should learn the stuff thoroughly first, *then*
>start playing with it!) but definitely not of the Inner Orders.
>
><snip>
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
Its not magick I understand Baird, though I think you have used
ceremonial and intuition, so I will happily take your word.
I do find men generally tend to be more calculating about their magick,
and to some extent more sexual. But that is only the impression I have
from meeting men into ceremonial magick.
Its nice to know that at some point men start to use intuition, instead
of just ceremony and ritual.
Shez
<ga...@arwm.net> writes
>
>I've got to quit trying to read at this hour of the morning. I
>was certain you'd written that you'd taught the cat to do the
>laundry.
>
>Blessed Be,
>Gale
If it were possible to teach a cat how to do the Laundry Gale, I would
have done it years ago. I am thinking of training the dog in toilet
cleaning, but I have a horrible visualisation of how he would do it.
(Grin)
>
>http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html (original
>Tarot, poetry, fiction)
>ga...@arwm.net
>modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
>
--
manra...@my-deja.com
> I am working on a Traditional British Herbal, something that I would
> enjoy doing. But its going to take quite a few years :)
> Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
> The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
I studied herbs with an old woodsman back in Maryland,USA he's passed
now. It was a shame, for he never committed to print what he knew...I
wish my skills as a writer back (I was a mere kid)then had been more
developed, perhaps I could have helped preserve something priceless.
I hope your herbal will talk about the majickal uses of herbs. You
know we have lots of really bad Wicca books on the market, when are you
going to write a real one and save the newbies from fluffbunnydom? It's
not just that you know so much, plenty of folks know stuff on this
newsgroup, it's the Way you know it. From you its not just knowledge,
it's the stuff and substance of a life lived with soul.
~Big Hug,
Ariel
manra...@my-deja.com
> >Yes, I've taught my son to do his laundry, unload the dishwaser,
emptry the
> >trash, take care of the cat. (snip)
>
> I've got to quit trying to read at this hour of the morning. I
> was certain you'd written that you'd taught the cat to do the
> laundry.
>
> Blessed Be,
> Gale
Congradulations, you've completed the Evelyn Wood Speed Reading Program.
;)Ariel
Yowie
<snip>
> Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
> looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
> companion, rather than a substitute mother.
> >
> >AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on
my
> >soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to
divorced
> >couples.
>
> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
> up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
> favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
> with gets tired of having to run around after him.
And suddenly, when the woman finally has enough and gets up and leaves, the
poor boy (for he's never had to grow up) is left completely on his own. His
mother, by that time, is far to old to look after him and he himself is too
old to find a woman that doesn't know any better. The women who are then
available to him are the ones that have left their own "mothers boy " or who
have successful lives of their own - neither set have the time or
inclination to look after a such a "helpless" creature. He finds that
suddenly he has to look after *himself* and it all comes as a very very rude
shock.
I'm one of those women that got sick of looking after such a man, as well as
holding down a full time job and studying part time. Whether he was working
or not, *all* housework and domestic chores were my responsibility only
because I was the woman and it was "womans work" and if I complained he'd
pull up the classic that a "good woman" *obeyed* her husband, and that,
stupidly, I had agreed to do so "in front of God". All hell broke loose if I
was insolent enough *not* to obey.
It was a pathetic sight after I'd left. Although according to him my
housework was never good enough, he hadn't done any of the washing up,
laundry or cleaning at all, despite having all the time in the world,
because allegedly he didn't know how. I didn't fall for it the second time
and told him that he could either pay a cleaner or learn to do it himself
just as I had to do - cleaning, washing, cooking and bill paying skills
weren't skills I was born with either, but if I, "stupider than horse shit",
could figure it out, I'm sure he could too.
He still accuses me of adultery, but thats only because I'm not ever going
back to a life as his personal servant. My current partner is my *partner* -
we *share* the responsibility, and share our lives. He'd never ever tell me
I had to obey him (and he's got buckley's if he tried). I still do the
laundry and cleaning but only because we've agreed together that they are my
tasks - he has his own to do, and he doesn't complain if I don't meet the
grade - he's thankful that I do them at all, as I am grateful to him when he
does his tasks. I am happily unmarried and feel no need to sign a peice of
paper to tell me what my heart already knows. I will never swear an oath to
obey anyone or anything ever again. That one word "obey" is open to such
corruption, but is nevertheless encouraged in the church and appears in most
versions of the Bible. Apparantly the original translation doesn't say
"obey" but rather 'repsect", but the church has conveniently chosen to
retain "obey" instead. To think that in previous generations I would have
been put to death for my disobedience. I am very grateful I don't live in
those times, and that I can wholly support myself without any need of a man
to look after me. It gives me a certain freedom of choice, for which I am
very thankful. I have no idea how women of even my mother's generation lived
with the domestic slavery that was "sanctioned" by the church, without going
totally insane.
It is no wonder that, despite being Christian in the loose sense of the
word, the only sort of "marriage" ceremony I will submit to is a handfasting
one - and the 'year and a day' variety only. I refuse to be legally or
"oath" bound to anyone "for ever" ever again. I can't imagine that God would
prefer us to live in 'marriage' filled with sadness and hate rather than
seperating before things got poisonous. Thankfully, my partner understands
and is happy to have each day with me as a freely given gift. The fact that
either of us can get up and leave at any moment without breaking any legal
bindings or promises makes us appreciate what we've got far more than many
people who take their marriages for granted.
Just my views
Yowie
Aeseker
"Yowie" <yowi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:39d32701$0$26533>
<snipped>
> It is no wonder that, despite being Christian in the loose sense of the
> word, the only sort of "marriage" ceremony I will submit to is a handfasting
> one - and the 'year and a day' variety only. I refuse to be legally or
> "oath" bound to anyone "for ever" ever again. I can't imagine that God would
> prefer us to live in 'marriage' filled with sadness and hate rather than
> seperating before things got poisonous. Thankfully, my partner understands
> and is happy to have each day with me as a freely given gift. The fact that
> either of us can get up and leave at any moment without breaking any legal
> bindings or promises makes us appreciate what we've got far more than many
> people who take their marriages for granted.
>
> Just my views
> Yowie
They are views that are shared by others Yowie. Though I haven't met the right
partner yet, at least if I ever do, both he and I will both know that we are
together because we want to be, not because one of us needs to be "taken care
of". I still have the dream of the "big wedding day" with the beautiful dress
and everything. Maybe I will just have an "un-wedding day", all of the
trappings without any legal bindings!
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
Shez
<yowi...@my-deja.com> writes>> >Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >....
>
><snip>
>
>> Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
>> looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
>> companion, rather than a substitute mother.
>> >
>> >AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on
>my
>> >soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to
>divorced
>> >couples.
>>
>> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
>> up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
>> favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
>> with gets tired of having to run around after him.
>
>poor boy (for he's never had to grow up) is left completely on his own. His
>mother, by that time, is far to old to look after him and he himself is too
>old to find a woman that doesn't know any better. The women who are then
>available to him are the ones that have left their own "mothers boy " or who
>have successful lives of their own - neither set have the time or
>inclination to look after a such a "helpless" creature. He finds that
>suddenly he has to look after *himself* and it all comes as a very very rude
>shock.
>
(Chuckle) I can see you had one of those mummy's boys.
Fortunately my Hubby was drafted into the Airforce and learned to look
out for himself, so I never got a Mummy's boy Who wanted to be waited on
hand and foot.
>I'm one of those women that got sick of looking after such a man, as well as
>holding down a full time job and studying part time. Whether he was working
>or not, *all* housework and domestic chores were my responsibility only
>because I was the woman and it was "womans work" and if I complained he'd
>pull up the classic that a "good woman" *obeyed* her husband, and that,
>stupidly, I had agreed to do so "in front of God". All hell broke loose if I
>was insolent enough *not* to obey.
I think their is an oath or two that says that the man must respect his
wife, Expecting her to carry him, and mother him is not in the marriage
contract.
>
>It was a pathetic sight after I'd left. Although according to him my
>housework was never good enough, he hadn't done any of the washing up,
>laundry or cleaning at all, despite having all the time in the world,
>because allegedly he didn't know how. I didn't fall for it the second time
>and told him that he could either pay a cleaner or learn to do it himself
>just as I had to do - cleaning, washing, cooking and bill paying skills
>weren't skills I was born with either, but if I, "stupider than horse shit",
>could figure it out, I'm sure he could too.
Good for you, its the only answer in the end, I worked full time in a
very high stress job, and often long hours, without my Husband and
family's support and help around the house, I couldn't have managed to
do my job.
They wanted the holidays and goodies, then Mum working was essential. So
they had to work to, Ken got home earlier than me, and picked them up
from school, made tea, and waited for me to come home. I used to spend
weekends catching up on housework, everyone got stuck in with vacuum
cleaners dusters, and the like. :) But we always took a day out to do
something mad together, it could be as crazy as building a space ship in
the garden to having an all night BBQ and bonfire with friends and their
kids on the beach.
>
>He still accuses me of adultery, but thats only because I'm not ever going
>back to a life as his personal servant.
Of course he is going to accuse you of adultery, he wont accuse himself
of being a bad husband now will he. (Grin )
Your asking for the moon, he wont change, people like that never do.
And You can thank his mother for running around like an idiot and giving
him the idea that women were basically there to fuck and to clean house.
He didn't really want a partner just a younger version of his mother.
> My current partner is my *partner* -
>we *share* the responsibility, and share our lives. He'd never ever tell me
>I had to obey him (and he's got buckley's if he tried). I still do the
>laundry and cleaning but only because we've agreed together that they are my
>tasks - he has his own to do, and he doesn't complain if I don't meet the
>grade - he's thankful that I do them at all, as I am grateful to him when he
>does his tasks. I am happily unmarried and feel no need to sign a peice of
>paper to tell me what my heart already knows. I will never swear an oath to
>obey anyone or anything ever again. That one word "obey" is open to such
>corruption, but is nevertheless encouraged in the church and appears in most
>versions of the Bible. Apparantly the original translation doesn't say
>"obey" but rather 'repsect", but the church has conveniently chosen to
>retain "obey" instead. To think that in previous generations I would have
>been put to death for my disobedience. I am very grateful I don't live in
>those times, and that I can wholly support myself without any need of a man
>to look after me. It gives me a certain freedom of choice, for which I am
>very thankful. I have no idea how women of even my mother's generation lived
>with the domestic slavery that was "sanctioned" by the church, without going
>totally insane.
I know a lot of women who get married in this country don't say the
words obey any more, they say respect, so obviously this generation of
women has wised up to the slavery
>
>It is no wonder that, despite being Christian in the loose sense of the
>word, the only sort of "marriage" ceremony I will submit to is a handfasting
>one - and the 'year and a day' variety only. I refuse to be legally or
>"oath" bound to anyone "for ever" ever again. I can't imagine that God would
>prefer us to live in 'marriage' filled with sadness and hate rather than
>seperating before things got poisonous.
Unfortunately The Christian god douse seem to want people to live just
like that, and women were not that long ago, chattels of their men,
along with the children and the animals. Thank goodness that has
changed.
>Thankfully, my partner understands
>and is happy to have each day with me as a freely given gift. The fact that
>either of us can get up and leave at any moment without breaking any legal
>bindings or promises makes us appreciate what we've got far more than many
>people who take their marriages for granted.
You might find eventually for reasons of pension, tax ect you want to
become legal partners, but a civil wedding is a partnership deal, not a
wife obey the husband deal.
So if you do eventually decide to make that change at least their is
another option open to you.
I have several friends who have been together years, and who went
through a civil ceremony simply because it was economically sensible to
do so,
I never wed in church, I had a civil ceremony, I would have been a
hypocrite if I had married in church, as I have never been a Christian.
Not that the idea of swanning down the isle in a white dress didn't
appeal it did. But I would have been making commitments to a god I
didn't believe in. We got married in our best blues, Air force uniforms.
My mum was a bit disappointed that I didn't wear a fancy dress, but
since civil weddings have been legal, all my family have been married
that way. Mum included. :)
>
>Just my views
>Yowie
Shez
>
>
>> I am working on a Traditional British Herbal, something that I would
>> enjoy doing. But its going to take quite a few years :)
>now. It was a shame, for he never committed to print what he knew...I
>wish my skills as a writer back (I was a mere kid)then had been more
>developed, perhaps I could have helped preserve something priceless.
> I hope your herbal will talk about the majickal uses of herbs. You
>know we have lots of really bad Wicca books on the market, when are you
>going to write a real one and save the newbies from fluffbunnydom? It's
>not just that you know so much, plenty of folks know stuff on this
>newsgroup, it's the Way you know it. From you its not just knowledge,
>it's the stuff and substance of a life lived with soul.
>~Big Hug,
> Ariel
>
One of the reasons I want to write a herbal is that a lot of my herbal
knowledge is from my Grandmother and the family, as well as studying
modern herbalism, to become registered. :)
I will certainly include the magical use of herbs. As I personally know
them.
I cant write for wiccans Ariel, I am not wiccan, I have never made a
secret of the fact, I am pagan totally and their are differences, one of
them being that I don't believe in the Goddess and God, and I don't work
magick with others.
For me magick is an art and craft, its not tied in with my spiritual
path,
However for anyone interested it should be none partisan, any one on a
pagan path I hope would find it useful, :)
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
--
Ventana
>
> And suddenly, when the woman finally has enough and gets up and leaves,
the
> poor boy (for he's never had to grow up) is left completely on his own.
His
> mother, by that time, is far to old to look after him and he himself is
too
> old to find a woman that doesn't know any better. The women who are then
> available to him are the ones that have left their own "mothers boy " or
who
> have successful lives of their own - neither set have the time or
> inclination to look after a such a "helpless" creature. He finds that
> suddenly he has to look after *himself* and it all comes as a very very
rude
> shock.
>
as
> holding down a full time job and studying part time. Whether he was
working
> or not, *all* housework and domestic chores were my responsibility only
> because I was the woman and it was "womans work" and if I complained he'd
> pull up the classic that a "good woman" *obeyed* her husband, and that,
> stupidly, I had agreed to do so "in front of God". All hell broke loose if
I
> was insolent enough *not* to obey.
>
> housework was never good enough, he hadn't done any of the washing up,
> laundry or cleaning at all, despite having all the time in the world,
> because allegedly he didn't know how. I didn't fall for it the second time
> and told him that he could either pay a cleaner or learn to do it himself
> just as I had to do - cleaning, washing, cooking and bill paying skills
> weren't skills I was born with either, but if I, "stupider than horse
shit",
> could figure it out, I'm sure he could too.
>
> word, the only sort of "marriage" ceremony I will submit to is a
handfasting
> one - and the 'year and a day' variety only. I refuse to be legally or
> "oath" bound to anyone "for ever" ever again. I can't imagine that God
would
> prefer us to live in 'marriage' filled with sadness and hate rather than
> and is happy to have each day with me as a freely given gift. The fact
that
> either of us can get up and leave at any moment without breaking any legal
> bindings or promises makes us appreciate what we've got far more than many
> people who take their marriages for granted.
>
> Yowie
>
Yowie - can relate! Been there - done that! Exact my ex-husband wasn't as
quite as extreme as yours.
But it was a real shock for me after the divorce. New city, new job, kid
living with me and I had never lived on my own. I had major anxiety
problems and chronic fatigue for the first 3 years. I have been divorced
for over 10 years now, but have only felt more emotionally and financially
secure in the last 3-4 years.
The problem I have is, after the divorce, my ex expected me to do all the
running around to doctors, school, friend's houses, etc. for my son. Also,
I am the only emotional support for my son. The only thing my ex has been
fairly good about is child support. However, he seems to think just writing
a check is enough in raising our son. The thing that infuriates me is that
as a single mother, I give so much of myself to raising my son and holding
down a high stress job. And boy if one thing goes wrong with my son - of
course I am always blamed. And yet I am the one with most of the
responsilibity - killing myself to maintain a household and raise a
responsible child. Somehow this picture doesn't look fair to me. The fact
is, I am not a man. My son needs his father as an example of what a strong
man should be. I cannot make up for this lack. And yet, this lack is what
causes the majority of problems with my son....and again, I am left picking
up the pieces and having to deal with everything. I know, life is not fair.
I'll quit bitching...just hanging on day by day.
To me marriage is piece of cake in comparison to raising a responsible
child. You have much more control over stopping the situation, i.e.
divorce. You can't divorce your kid. This is not to diminish or discount
your experience. This is from my own personal point of view. Of course, my
son has a difficult and strong personality. It is like pulling teeth with
him all the time, especially in regard to school.
Sorry, I had to vent - had a fight with him earlier...
-V
manra...@my-deja.com
>...their are differences, one of
> them being that I don't believe in the Goddess and God, and I don't
work
> magick with others.
Was this true then of the way you were raised? The majick of your
community and kindred, was it chiefly for utilitarian purposes (ie,
getting things done), or was there a spiritual component in that it was
linked to a God/dess head,or did church serve this need in the
community? You say you don't believe in a God/dess. But did your early
experiences include such a belief? Something I meant to ask but forgot
to ask you earlier, did your family celebrate the Sabbats or moons in
any manner? I'm curious too, is there any author out there who has
written about paganism as it existed when you were growing up? It seems
the hype of Gardner, Sanders and Pickingsgill are all that ever made it
to print.
> For me magick is an art and craft, its not tied in with my spiritual
> path,
You use the appellation '"Old Craft'lady"'. You mean this in another
manner than I have come to think it. I've always thought of Craft as
Witchcraft, but you mean it differently. What does it mean in relation
to your use of it? I know it sounds a piddling thing, but I don't like
to have such a partial understanding of such a simple thing.
> However for anyone interested it should be none partisan, any one on a
> pagan path I hope would find it useful, :)
> Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
Well put me down for a copy of your book. I certainly ask a lot of
questions, but then my professors already know this ;) BTW, my wife is
a nurse, she's studying Naturopathic Medicine here in the US, so our
house is full of herb books. I've a strong hunch though, she's not read
one yet, like the one you're writing. Intrigued,you betsya I am.
~Big Hug,
Ariel
Daniel Cohen
> > I am working on a Traditional British Herbal, something that I would
> > enjoy doing. But its going to take quite a few years :)
> > Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
> > The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
> I studied herbs with an old woodsman back in Maryland,USA he's passed
> now. It was a shame, for he never committed to print what he knew...I
> wish my skills as a writer back (I was a mere kid)then had been more
> developed, perhaps I could have helped preserve something priceless.
> I hope your herbal will talk about the majickal uses of herbs. You
> know we have lots of really bad Wicca books on the market,
I've always wanted to see a discussion of the strange ingrediewnts
allegedly used in magical potions, and how they relate to local names
for plants.
As an example, someone asked me not so long ago where to get such items
as adder's tongues. A glance at Richard Mabey's wonderful book "Flora
Brittanica" revealed that "adders' tongues" are a kind of fern.
--
Remove "nospam" and "please" and "invalid" for a correct address
Yowie
"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> My son needs his father as an example of what a strong
> man should be. I cannot make up for this lack. And yet, this lack
is what
> causes the majority of problems with my son....and again, I am left
picking
> up the pieces and having to deal with everything. I know, life is
not fair.
> I'll quit bitching...just hanging on day by day.
>
> To me marriage is piece of cake in comparison to raising a responsible
> child. You have much more control over stopping the situation, i.e.
> divorce. You can't divorce your kid. This is not to diminish or
discount
> your experience. This is from my own personal point of view. Of
course, my
> son has a difficult and strong personality. It is like pulling teeth
with
> him all the time, especially in regard to school.
>
> Sorry, I had to vent - had a fight with him earlier...
Thats OK, Ventana, we all need to vent sometimes. (I think I did
earlier in this thread). I've got plenty of friends who have found
themselves in the same situation as you, so I can sympathise. I am very
thankful that my ex and I only had a cat (which is a whole other story
but probably not for relating here). As my friend said "He (the ex)
gets all the fun with Luke, I get all the work. He can take Luke to the
zoo and have a great old time and think he's done his parenting for the
week, whereas I get to stay up all night for a week while he has the
flu and still have to make it to work each morning. Parenting is about
watching the elephants *and* cleaning up the sick. Why do I get all the
sick and John gets all the elephants?"
I'd probably like to vent lots more, but I can feel the moderator's
stare.
Yowie
Michael W. O'Donnell
<snip>
>Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
>looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
>companion, rather than a substitute mother.
>Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
>up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
>favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
>with gets tired of having to run around after him.
Every year, I find myself more and more grateful for a special course I and
every other boy in my junior high school was forced to take. It was called
"Domestic Survival" and was a sort of rudimentary Home Economics for people
who were going to be batchelors some day. Some of us hated it more than
others, but every one of us learned how to buy food, cook simple dishes,
wash clothes, and generally avoid falling to bits without a Mommy. Minor
Sewing Repairs for Thick Fingered Boys and stuff like that.
The only thing wrong with the program was the lack of a coresponding shop
class for the girls. They could even have used the same title!
BB
Darkhound
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> I'd probably like to vent lots more, but I can feel the moderator's
> stare.
We do *not* stare!....
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> It is no wonder that, despite being Christian in the loose sense of the
> word, the only sort of "marriage" ceremony I will submit to is a handfasting
> one - and the 'year and a day' variety only. I refuse to be legally or
> "oath" bound to anyone "for ever" ever again.
That, I think, might well depend upon one's point of view. My partner
and I are very grateful indeed to have had the benefit of a religious
handfasting of the "permanent" variety, since we could get the "piece of
paper" only if we were to manage to get to Vermont before the voting in
November....
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Yowie <yowi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I'd probably like to vent lots more, but I can feel the moderator's
>> stare.
>
>We do *not* stare!....
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
Gimlet gaze then, (grin) I think we have all had that gaze on us now and
again.
Shez
>
>>...their are differences, one of
>> them being that I don't believe in the Goddess and God, and I don't
>work
>> magick with others.
>
> Was this true then of the way you were raised? The majick of your
>community and kindred, was it chiefly for utilitarian purposes (ie,
>getting things done),
Magick was and is with me a very practical skill, its not tied in with
my spirituality in the way that wicca is with magick and religion.
> or was there a spiritual component in that it was
>linked to a God/dess head,or did church serve this need in the
>community?
Many pagans lived within a Christian community, the best way to hide is
in plain sight, so many pagans in fact were part of a church, though
they might not go often.
Grandmother was nominally a catholic, though when she married Granddad,
who was a Baptist, and refused to have her children brought up as
Catholics, she was thrown out of the church. It didn't bother her to
much. The church however still sent people round to collect, I never did
understand why gran was so easy going about it, but she always supported
charity's where she could. I suspect she thought of the Catholic church
as a deserving charity :)
By the early 70s there was no need to belong to a Christian group for
cover. So people simply dropped out of churches.
>You say you don't believe in a God/dess. But did your early
>experiences include such a belief?
No, I was not brought up to believe in the Goddess, however I was
brought up to have a deep respect and love for the Earth, for me its not
a goddess but a living entity, not something to be worshiped but
respected .
Some witches did believe in gods and goddesses , usually the Earth as a
goddess, and Hern as the god, or the Green man, whichever aspect you
prefer.
Some were Christian, Being Christian doesn't stop you being a witch, if
your religion is outside your study of Magick then it doesn't matter
really what you believe, Their are even Atheist witches about.
> Something I meant to ask but forgot
>to ask you earlier, did your family celebrate the Sabbats or moons in
>any manner?
Mostly the winter, spring and midsummer then harvest. That was all, it
wouldn't be a circle just people popping into each others homes and
having a quiet party.
Which is why I suppose that whenever my own group celebrate the major
Solstices, its with a great party, and apart from thinking of those who
are no longer with us, or those who are sick, or far away, and toasting
the earth for a good harvest, or a good spring, no ritual.
Halloween is celebrated as a big party, with a Wend fire, It was common
for witches to stay indoors then, so often a dozen or more would get
together at one or anothers home, Wend or Bale fire could be in a
fireplace as well as outdoors, its simply using seven different woods,
on the fire,
Its in remembrance of all those pagans and magick users long gone, who
sat around such fires, over thousands of years, Those who live now and
stare into such a fire, and those to come in the future, its a circle
of time really, a continuation of an old tradition, the past, the
present and the future is in that fire.
Also leaving a mirror as a gate, with a candle in front of it to light
the way, and an extra plate and glass for those who have passed on so
that they may visit. Halloween was a time of remembrance and joy. The
joy was that those who had died had lived full and interesting lives and
left us with their knowledge, love and joy.
Its very similar to an Irish wake.
>I'm curious too, is there any author out there who has
>written about paganism as it existed when you were growing up? It seems
>the hype of Gardner, Sanders and Pickingsgill are all that ever made it
>to print.
Not that I knew of then, the craft was secret, one or two people I
believe published books that hinted at the craft, Folk tales and so on,
But I don't remember any thing like that.
Today, you can buy how to be a witch books and they are in every
library. That has happened only since wicca really.
Crowleys and Such had published but it wasn't considered to be craft.
And they were men. (Grin) that seems strange now, but seemed important
then, when witches were almost all women.
>
>> For me magick is an art and craft, its not tied in with my spiritual
>> path,
>
> You use the appellation '"Old Craft'lady"'. You mean this in another
>manner than I have come to think it. I've always thought of Craft as
>Witchcraft, but you mean it differently. What does it mean in relation
>to your use of it? I know it sounds a piddling thing, but I don't like
>to have such a partial understanding of such a simple thing.
Craft was the old name for what a witch did, its another name for
magick. its a name for those who studied and practised any occupation
that included intuition and art,
Its also the name for all craft guild members and magick was partly a
guild, it has novices, apprentices, journeywomen,/men and Elders. We
could call ourselves crafts women, and crafts men.
Its also a little bit of a joke, I am old, and I am craft, (grin) I
was slightly taking the pee out of myself.
>
>> However for anyone interested it should be none partisan, any one on a
>> pagan path I hope would find it useful, :)
>
>> Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
>
> Well put me down for a copy of your book. I certainly ask a lot of
>questions, but then my professors already know this ;) BTW, my wife is
>a nurse, she's studying Naturopathic Medicine here in the US, so our
>house is full of herb books. I've a strong hunch though, she's not read
>one yet, like the one you're writing. Intrigued,you betsya I am.
>~Big Hug,
> Ariel
It should be fun to write, I just hope my sense of humour doesn't Take
over, I shall have to try to be a bit more serious ;)
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
--
Shez
O'Donnell <modo...@capecod.net> writes
>
><snip>
>>Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
>>looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
>>companion, rather than a substitute mother.
>>Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
>>up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
>>favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
>>with gets tired of having to run around after him.
>
>Every year, I find myself more and more grateful for a special course I and
>every other boy in my junior high school was forced to take. It was called
>"Domestic Survival" and was a sort of rudimentary Home Economics for people
>who were going to be batchelors some day. Some of us hated it more than
>others, but every one of us learned how to buy food, cook simple dishes,
>wash clothes, and generally avoid falling to bits without a Mommy. Minor
>Sewing Repairs for Thick Fingered Boys and stuff like that.
>
>The only thing wrong with the program was the lack of a coresponding shop
>class for the girls. They could even have used the same title!
>
>BB
>Darkhound
>
brother made a crystal radio at one such class, while I went to
domestic Science classes, learning to cook ect, Girls were taught that
skill at home anyway.
I would much have preferred the electronics and woodworking classes
(Sigh)
But that sort of Domestic Survival class would be good for guys and
gals, what a smashing idea. Perhaps they could include how to put on a
plug, simple wiring, DIY, and decorating.
Maybe the newsgroup should put up a Magick survival site (grin)
Ventana
Yowie <yowi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <avSA5.807$Y5.2...@typhoon.san.rr.com>,
> "Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> course, my
> > son has a difficult and strong personality. It is like pulling
teeth
> with
> > him all the time, especially in regard to school.
> >
> > Sorry, I had to vent - had a fight with him earlier...
>
> earlier in this thread). I've got plenty of friends who have found
> themselves in the same situation as you, so I can sympathise. I am
very
> thankful that my ex and I only had a cat (which is a whole other story
> but probably not for relating here). As my friend said "He (the ex)
> gets all the fun with Luke, I get all the work. He can take Luke to
the
> zoo and have a great old time and think he's done his parenting for
the
> week, whereas I get to stay up all night for a week while he has the
> flu and still have to make it to work each morning. Parenting is about
> watching the elephants *and* cleaning up the sick. Why do I get all
the
> sick and John gets all the elephants?"
>
> stare.
>
having to pick ups pieces for promises made to my son by his father.
Sometimes I feel like just moving away.
Thanks for your kind words. I don't mean to turn this NG and thread
into a bitching, male-bashing session. Actually on the way to work
today I was thinking -- if it weren't for being a Pagan and some of my
Wiccan beliefs, I would have a much worse viewpoint about men in
general. I have met some wonderful, kind and responsible men in
Wicca. Yes, they weren't perfect, but women aren't either (close
though ;-) I hang on to my limited experiences with these types of men
as a way to stay positive about the male sex in general.
On that note, I'll get back to *cleaning the sick* (he, he ;-) Humor,
what a way to survive!
-V
Ventana
> In article <WzTz5.568$Y5.1...@typhoon.san.rr.com>, Ventana
> <j...@san.rr.com> writes
> >Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:JJ6m3VA5...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
> >....
> >
<snip>
> >> > How, after learning male magic,
> >> >can a man do "women's magick"?
> >>
> >> I don't know, I think perhaps that some of them can, I believe Baird
has
> >> said that he uses both ritual and intuitive magick. If I read him right
> >> then he is managing to do both.
> >> My student learned women's magick first, and later what I refer to as
> >> men's magick.
> >
> >Oh, I thought I read in your previous post that the man studied men's
magick
> >first, then women's. I guess I should read that one again...
>
> Sorry if I gave that impression, it was several years into his training
> before he got to study with a shaman. He did well, I am going to suggest
> that one or two of the women also learn shamanism. I think it would be
> good to see how the two different systems work .
I would also be interested in finding out how the two work together. I
think, depending on the situation, some techniques from either practice
would work.
> >> I think their is a lot of truth in the saying, "Great men, had great
> >> women standing behind them "
> >
> >Or visa versa. At least it's starting moving in that direction.
>
> Yes, but when I think of a strong woman, I remember Mrs Thatcher, and
> her wimp of a husband Dennis who always had his nose in a bottle of Gin.
> (Grin )
He, he - I only hope men can be the support women have always been. This
will take some time and dedication on the man's part.
> >> Make sure the girl who gets him, doesn't have to run after him :)
> >> I cant think of anything sadder than a man who has no idea how to look
> >> after himself and expects some woman to do it for him.
> >> I always blame the Mother, If she had taught him properly he would be
> >> able to go out in the world fully capable of looking after himself. And
> >> the girl that gets him would appreciate that.
> >
> >The timely is so appropriate on what you wrote above. We were just
having
> >that talk a few days ago. It was in regard to a rebate on a computer
item
> >he bought. He wanted me to fill out the form, envelope, etc. It told
him
> >he needs to start doing these things for himself and when he's grown he
> >shouldn't be expecting me or his girlfriend to do these things for him.
It
> >is still on the nightstand in his room. He'll break down eventually.
It's
> >money after all....
>
> Oh he will break down once he realises that he is missing out, You had
> better also tell him that usually returns have a time limitation, if its
> still their in a month they might not accept it as a return. :)
It's not a return, it's rebate. He is aware of the time frame. And I know
eventually he'll fill out the form. I am just waiting to see how long he
waits.
> Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
> looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
> companion, rather than a substitute mother.
> >
> >AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on
my
> >soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to
divorced
> >couples.
>
> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
> up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
> favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
> with gets tired of having to run around after him.
I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome this part
of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded! I guess they
could say the same thing about women and shopping ;-)
> >I'm 41 and have started to feel my time is limited already. When my son
is
> >independent and on his own (fingers crossed), I think I might travel to
> >Europe on a month or so vacation. Then I am thinking of moving out of
So.
> >Cal. Can't take it anymore...The clock is ticking on my plans.....
>
> (Chuckle) When your sixty odd, that seems a little more urgent. Funnily
> enough I do feel I have basically done what I was meant to do, though I
> will never stop working, I don't have that drive to complete something
> in my life anymore, its rather nice actually. :)
I know, I didn't mean to make light of your comment about urgency. I have
to stop thinking of myself as older than I am. It seems like when I turned
40 I started thinking more like this. The scary part is, in many ways I
feel like what you wrote above. I can't tell what that's all about. - is it
just that I need a break from all the responsilibity or is it depression?
-V
Richard Ballard
>> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers
>> who bring up boys who are unable to take care of themselves
>> do their children no favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out,
>> When the women he ends up with gets tired of having to run
>> around after him.
>
>I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome
>this part of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded!
I don't like to speak in generalities, but i believe that everyone
(male and female) prioritizes their time and activities.
If you have someone to cook for you, you probably won't learn to
cook. If you have someone to shovel snow, you probably will not
shovel snow. If you have someone to cut your lawn, you probably
won't learn to maintain the lawn mower.
When someone needs a service, they learn to perform the service
themselves, to purchase the service, or to do without the service.
Best wishes.
Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging, and security
Shez
<j...@san.rr.com> writes
>
Snip
>> >
>> >Oh, I thought I read in your previous post that the man studied men's
>magick
>> >first, then women's. I guess I should read that one again...
>>
>> Sorry if I gave that impression, it was several years into his training
>> before he got to study with a shaman. He did well, I am going to suggest
>> that one or two of the women also learn shamanism. I think it would be
>> good to see how the two different systems work .
>
>think, depending on the situation, some techniques from either practice
>would work.
Could be, it certainly did my student no harm, though he still preferred
what I call women's magick, I think he found shamanism a bit OTT. He is
British and the men are a bit reserved about jumping around and dancing
in front of others (grin) We didn't discuss Shamanism much, apart from
the bit I have just mentioned, it was another discipline.
But his teacher was an old friend of mine, who is one of the best
storytellers in England, He mostly covers the Norse sagas, and the Anglo
Saxon periods
>
>> >> I think their is a lot of truth in the saying, "Great men, had great
>> >> women standing behind them "
>> >
>> >Or visa versa. At least it's starting moving in that direction.
>>
>> Yes, but when I think of a strong woman, I remember Mrs Thatcher, and
>> her wimp of a husband Dennis who always had his nose in a bottle of Gin.
>> (Grin )
>
>He, he - I only hope men can be the support women have always been. This
>will take some time and dedication on the man's part.
Well Dear Dennis was the laughing stock of this country. But he seemed
to enjoy being at her beck and call. ;)
>
>> >> Make sure the girl who gets him, doesn't have to run after him :)
>> >> I cant think of anything sadder than a man who has no idea how to look
>> >> after himself and expects some woman to do it for him.
>> >> I always blame the Mother, If she had taught him properly he would be
>> >> able to go out in the world fully capable of looking after himself. And
>> >> the girl that gets him would appreciate that.
>> >
>> >The timely is so appropriate on what you wrote above. We were just
>having
>> >that talk a few days ago. It was in regard to a rebate on a computer
>item
>> >he bought. He wanted me to fill out the form, envelope, etc. It told
>him
>> >he needs to start doing these things for himself and when he's grown he
>> >shouldn't be expecting me or his girlfriend to do these things for him.
>It
>> >is still on the nightstand in his room. He'll break down eventually.
>It's
>> >money after all....
>>
>> Oh he will break down once he realises that he is missing out, You had
>> better also tell him that usually returns have a time limitation, if its
>> still their in a month they might not accept it as a return. :)
>
>It's not a return, it's rebate. He is aware of the time frame. And I know
>eventually he'll fill out the form. I am just waiting to see how long he
>waits.
Chuckle, make sure if he doesn't sign the forms and what not, that he
understands that its his fault and no one else's, that's another trick
men try sometimes, and boys.
>
> > Very much so, When men can look after themselves then they wont be
>> looking for women who will look after them. They will tend to go for a
>> companion, rather than a substitute mother.
>> >
>> >AND....the mother always gets blamed for everything. Don't me going on
>my
>> >soapbox, I could write about this for hours especially in regard to
>divorced
>> >couples.
>>
>> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers who bring
>> up boys who are unable to take care of themselves do their children no
>> favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out, When the women he ends up
>> with gets tired of having to run around after him.
>
>I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome this part
>of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded! I guess they
>could say the same thing about women and shopping ;-)
I think a lot of it is social conditioning, more especially in the
women, Women in Celtic times were considered tougher, and more vicious
than the men. They were respected.
Unfortunately over the century's women were taught to be weak, and to
know their place, which wasn't much above that of the animals.
)
>
>> >I'm 41 and have started to feel my time is limited already. When my son
>is
>> >independent and on his own (fingers crossed), I think I might travel to
>> >Europe on a month or so vacation. Then I am thinking of moving out of
>So.
>> >Cal. Can't take it anymore...The clock is ticking on my plans.....
>>
>> (Chuckle) When your sixty odd, that seems a little more urgent. Funnily
>> enough I do feel I have basically done what I was meant to do, though I
>> will never stop working, I don't have that drive to complete something
>> in my life anymore, its rather nice actually. :)
>
>I know, I didn't mean to make light of your comment about urgency.
Don't worry about it, I don't take offence easily, I remember being
forty, the children nearly grown, I started the menopause then, but I
started to take my life into my hands,
I had a good career, I started to join clubs and society's. Whatever
interested me. It was a great way of getting out and about and meeting
people.
I joined the local Science fiction club, and ended up going to
conventions and making costumes. :) Its easy to wind down at forty, but
once you do start getting involved in things, its suprising how
interested and enjoyable you find it.
> I have
>to stop thinking of myself as older than I am. It seems like when I turned
>40 I started thinking more like this. The scary part is, in many ways I
>feel like what you wrote above. I can't tell what that's all about. - is it
>just that I need a break from all the responsilibity or is it depression?
In my case, I have an illness that disables me to some extent, but I
still enjoy my life very much.
In some ways because I feel I have completed whatever it was I was
supposed to do, I do feel liberated, as if getting to that point I had
to concentrate on what I was doing, These days, I can live life for
myself, and enjoy its pleasures. Fortunately I have a hubby who is still
the nicest man I ever met. I got very lucky.
You should at forty be looking at other outlets for your time, building
up a social life, and friends, Then when your son moves on, You will not
be depressed or down, you will have a busy happy life.
But if your feeling depressed and down, a visit to a doctor might not be
a bad idea. It could be something quite simple that isn't difficult to
fix. Or you may need a bit of help getting through this period, don't
give up on yourself. Remember your special to. :)
Your not just someone's mum.
You deserve a life of your own, and all the happiness you can find.
manra...@my-deja.com
>
> It should be fun to write, I just hope my sense of humour doesn't Take
> over, I shall have to try to be a bit more serious ;)
> Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
Au contraire, the more Shez there is in the book, the more interesting
it'll be. Your wisdom is organic and speaks across generations, it
should sound like a conversation with your grandma by the hearth. There
are many herbal guides (oiy, our bookcases are groaning with them) out
there, what will make the intimacy of your understanding appealing is
your voice and presence in the work. You natually speak with a writers
voice,I don't really think the book will need much dressing up. Have
you ever read any books by Euell Gibbons, who wrote in the states about
wildcrafting and such? I mention him because he speaks of plants from
his experience of them, I feel this way about the Farrars when they
write... it gives the books the authenticity and color of their
personal experience.
Thanks for sharing so much of yourself in your reply, it is eye
opening,as always, for example I never heard of the mirror and candle
being used as a gateway during the dumb supper of Hallows. These
seasonal parties you all give each other at the Great Sabbats, makes me
think how much we dress stuff up here with ritual oftentimes, perhaps
when things are so well integrated into ones life, the window dresssing
isn't required to honor them. One's life is sufficient, if one's life
is lived as the ritual.
I tend to mull things over a bit, so the longer I write the more I
ask. What is God to you, or what term do you use to express your
experience of a spiritual absolute? Just wondering when you get
together as a group, do you Call down the Moon, etc. or potentiate
these energies in another manner (I realize this shows the biases of my
own experience here, so it may not even be applicable)?
~Big Hug,
Ariel
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Chuckle, make sure if he doesn't sign the forms and what not, that he
> understands that its his fault and no one else's, that's another trick
> men try sometimes, and boys.
*That* particular fault seems not to be reserved for the male of the
species. I've known plenty of women, for whom nothing that went wrong
in their lives was "my fault."
<snip>
> I think a lot of it is social conditioning, more especially in the
> women, Women in Celtic times were considered tougher, and more vicious
> than the men. They were respected.
Amongst at least some of the Iriquois Nations of North America,
prisoners of war were turned over to the women for, er, "execution" (to
employ an euphemism) for precisely that reason: the women were thought
to be in some respects tougher, more vicious - and much more inventive.
<snip>
Blessed be,
Baird
shuddering....
Ventana
Richard Ballard <rball...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001002032040...@nso-ca.aol.com...
> "Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> writes:
>
> >> Mothers are not to blame for everything, no way, but Mothers
> >> who bring up boys who are unable to take care of themselves
> >> do their children no favours, Its the boys who end up loosing out,
> >> When the women he ends up with gets tired of having to run
> >> around after him.
> >
> >I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome
> >this part of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded!
>
> (male and female) prioritizes their time and activities.
>
> If you have someone to cook for you, you probably won't learn to
> cook. If you have someone to shovel snow, you probably will not
> shovel snow. If you have someone to cut your lawn, you probably
> won't learn to maintain the lawn mower.
>
> When someone needs a service, they learn to perform the service
> themselves, to purchase the service, or to do without the service.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
I don't like to speak in generalities either. I am speaking from personal
experience. In addition, I have known men that DID learn how to cook,
clean, etc., but when they got into a relationship, they got lazy and
expected their partner to do it. I do think that some men are different,
especially those from a military background. They know how to do all this
and more.
-V
Ventana
> >> Sorry if I gave that impression, it was several years into his training
> >> before he got to study with a shaman. He did well, I am going to
suggest
> >> that one or two of the women also learn shamanism. I think it would be
> >> good to see how the two different systems work .
> >
> >I would also be interested in finding out how the two work together. I
> >think, depending on the situation, some techniques from either practice
> >would work.
>
> Could be, it certainly did my student no harm, though he still preferred
> what I call women's magick, I think he found shamanism a bit OTT. He is
> British and the men are a bit reserved about jumping around and dancing
> in front of others (grin) We didn't discuss Shamanism much, apart from
> the bit I have just mentioned, it was another discipline.
> But his teacher was an old friend of mine, who is one of the best
> storytellers in England, He mostly covers the Norse sagas, and the Anglo
> Saxon periods
What is OTT? I can see your point about jumping and dancing around. Some
people here have similar inhibitions as well. The teacher sounds
fascinating.
<snip>
> >I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome this
part
> >of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded! I guess they
> >could say the same thing about women and shopping ;-)
>
> I think a lot of it is social conditioning, more especially in the
> women, Women in Celtic times were considered tougher, and more vicious
> than the men. They were respected.
> Unfortunately over the century's women were taught to be weak, and to
> know their place, which wasn't much above that of the animals.
Yes, but didn't Celtic women wear a lot of gold jewelry ;-) If I recall,
the men did too.
I have heard once that deep down women are more viscious than men because
they are the sustainers of life and know exactly how to pull the plug at the
appropriate time.
> >> (Chuckle) When your sixty odd, that seems a little more urgent. Funnily
> >> enough I do feel I have basically done what I was meant to do, though I
> >> will never stop working, I don't have that drive to complete something
> >> in my life anymore, its rather nice actually. :)
> >
> >I know, I didn't mean to make light of your comment about urgency.
>
> Don't worry about it, I don't take offence easily, I remember being
> forty, the children nearly grown, I started the menopause then, but I
> started to take my life into my hands,
> I had a good career, I started to join clubs and society's. Whatever
> interested me. It was a great way of getting out and about and meeting
> people.
> I joined the local Science fiction club, and ended up going to
> conventions and making costumes. :) Its easy to wind down at forty, but
> once you do start getting involved in things, its suprising how
> interested and enjoyable you find it.
I look forward to having a lot more free time and a load lifted off my mind.
My son is, well let's just say, is labor intensive, especially emotionally.
But he is very special and bright and I love him dearly. Some people are
very afraid of being along after their children grow up, but I am not that
much. I am looking forward to getting more involved in things and
volunteering.
> In my case, I have an illness that disables me to some extent, but I
> still enjoy my life very much.
> In some ways because I feel I have completed whatever it was I was
> supposed to do, I do feel liberated, as if getting to that point I had
> to concentrate on what I was doing, These days, I can live life for
> myself, and enjoy its pleasures. Fortunately I have a hubby who is still
> the nicest man I ever met. I got very lucky.
> You should at forty be looking at other outlets for your time, building
> up a social life, and friends, Then when your son moves on, You will not
> be depressed or down, you will have a busy happy life.
> But if your feeling depressed and down, a visit to a doctor might not be
> a bad idea. It could be something quite simple that isn't difficult to
> fix. Or you may need a bit of help getting through this period, don't
> give up on yourself. Remember your special to. :)
> Your not just someone's mum.
> You deserve a life of your own, and all the happiness you can find.
Oh my god, I can't remember when I last thought of myself in a real way. I
related to the father in the movie "American Beauty" (one of my favorite
movies) and his *burnout* (not his attraction to sweet young things ;-). I
remember sobbing at the end of that movie! Sometimes I don't think I know
who I am anymore. I have been battling depression for 3 years. I think it
is due to burnout, especially with my career. Anyway, I don't mean this to
be a therapy session and bring anyone down. Thanks for your kind words.
-V
Aeseker
"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wJcC5.1772$Y5.4...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
> Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:BO2U2KAe...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <bbNB5.1236$Y5.3...@typhoon.san.rr.com>, Ventana
> > <j...@san.rr.com> writes
> > >
> > Snip
> they are the sustainers of life and know exactly how to pull the plug at the
> appropriate time.
>
conclusion was that as a male, he seemed "honor bound" to follow a set of rules.
Like fighting following the "Marquis du Queensbury" rules. Personally, I would
look to violence only as a last resort and if that is my only option, rules
don't apply anymore.
During one of my psychology classes years ago, we were asked just how far we
would go. (The topic started out as a discussion on the holocaust). I have
given this a lot of thought over the years. I don't believe I could ever hurt
innocents as the Nazis did. However, I did discover a part of myself that could
intentionally inflict great pain if the life or safety of a loved one was at
stake and I believed that the person I was "interrogating" was responsible or
had information that I needed to secure my loved one's safe return. And that I
would be able to do so in a matter of fact, calculated manner. Not that I ever
did this <grin>, it was situational role-playing. At first, this was extremely
disturbing to me, no one wants to admit they would be capable of such things.
Actually my Pagan beliefs were what helped me come to gripes with it. I have
learned to acknowledge both the light and dark aspects of myself and to embrace
them. I believe that once you truly know a part of yourself and embrace it then
you can then "control" that part, it no longer controls you.
> Oh my god, I can't remember when I last thought of myself in a real way. I
> related to the father in the movie "American Beauty" (one of my favorite
> movies) and his *burnout* (not his attraction to sweet young things ;-). I
> remember sobbing at the end of that movie! Sometimes I don't think I know
> who I am anymore. I have been battling depression for 3 years. I think it
> is due to burnout, especially with my career. Anyway, I don't mean this to
> be a therapy session and bring anyone down. Thanks for your kind words.
>
> -V
Same here Ventana. The last 3 years have been the roughest of my life with the
last year being pure hell. It is a daily struggle to keep going and not to give
up. Sometimes even trying to progress along this path gets overwhelming and
disheartening. All I can do is try to take it one day at a time and hope that
someday things get better. My favorite scene in American Beauty was when the
father got the job at the fast food place and said he wanted the job with the
least responsibility. Boy does that sound good these days.
Hang in there,
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
>
>
Ventana
news:k0eC5.2430$ir6.5...@news.uswest.net...
Oh yeh, it is scary when you realize that dark side of you exists. I agree
about it not being able to control you. I think it is more in the accepting
that it's power dissipates.
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one going through shit. This reminds me of
my *retracting rubberband* stage - you know, the one where your life goes
backwards and crapping for awhile just before charging ahead (rather being
swept away in the deluge) with many changes. Just like pulling back a
rubber to propel it forward.
What is it about the last three years??? Maybe something astrological? I
too understand the daily struggle, but remember a time when my life was
almost effortless and changes came whether I wanted them or not - mostly
good changes.
Yes, I remember the scene from AB you referred to - I was laughing so hard
in the movie theatre. I thought "That man took the words right out of my
mouth." The scene I was really referring to was the one towards the end of
the movie set in the kitchen when the blond teenager asked him how he was
doing and he really appreciated someone caring enough about him to ask.
There were so many good scenes in that movie, it's hard to pick just one.
Thanks for responding and *thinking* of me. I hope your life too gets
better - one day at a time....
-V
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> What is it about the last three years??? Maybe something astrological? I
> too understand the daily struggle, but remember a time when my life was
> almost effortless and changes came whether I wanted them or not - mostly
> good changes.
I am not an astrologer, but I understand that something does exist
called a "Saturn return." As I remember discussions of the matter
several years ago when my twin-in-law went through such a period (though
my SO didn't, and one would have thought he would - but that's another
thread), Saturn returns to its location in one's natal chart every
thirty-three years or so and causes Bad Things to happen....
Comments from astrologers?
Blessed be,
Baird
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Chuckle, make sure if he doesn't sign the forms and what not, that he
>> understands that its his fault and no one else's, that's another trick
>> men try sometimes, and boys.
>
>species. I've known plenty of women, for whom nothing that went wrong
>in their lives was "my fault."
True Baird, its both sex's but I do find that when men leave all the
house hold tasks, and bill paying to their partners they do get very
good at saying, Well its nothing to do with me. (Grit teeth..)
One of my brothers douse that, I have told his wife to kick him were it
hurts, but she really thinks he is hopeless and needs looking after.
Considering he was in Northern Ireland, the Gulf war, and a few other
sticky places in the Military, I cant understand where she gets that
idea from !
>
><snip>
>
>> I think a lot of it is social conditioning, more especially in the
>> women, Women in Celtic times were considered tougher, and more vicious
>> than the men. They were respected.
>
>Amongst at least some of the Iriquois Nations of North America,
>prisoners of war were turned over to the women for, er, "execution" (to
>employ an euphemism) for precisely that reason: the women were thought
>to be in some respects tougher, more vicious - and much more inventive.
Women would be very inventive if they are given the chance to wreak
vengeance on someone who has killed their child or their family or
husband.
We do understand pain, giving Birth is about the most painful thing
possible, but I think women just might be able to beat that (grin )
given the chance.
I don't understand why men think we are sweet natured, weak little
things ;)
>
><snip>
>
>Blessed be,
>Baird
>shuddering....
>
>
--
Shez
<j...@san.rr.com> writes
>Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:BO2U2KAe...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <bbNB5.1236$Y5.3...@typhoon.san.rr.com>, Ventana
>> <j...@san.rr.com> writes
>> >
>> Snip
>
>> >> Sorry if I gave that impression, it was several years into his training
>> >> before he got to study with a shaman. He did well, I am going to
>suggest
>> >> that one or two of the women also learn shamanism. I think it would be
>> >> good to see how the two different systems work .
>> >
>> >I would also be interested in finding out how the two work together. I
>> >think, depending on the situation, some techniques from either practice
>> >would work.
>>
>> Could be, it certainly did my student no harm, though he still preferred
>> what I call women's magick, I think he found shamanism a bit OTT. He is
>> British and the men are a bit reserved about jumping around and dancing
>> in front of others (grin) We didn't discuss Shamanism much, apart from
>> the bit I have just mentioned, it was another discipline.
>> But his teacher was an old friend of mine, who is one of the best
>> storytellers in England, He mostly covers the Norse sagas, and the Anglo
>> Saxon periods
>
>
>What is OTT? I can see your point about jumping and dancing around. Some
>people here have similar inhibitions as well. The teacher sounds
>fascinating.
OTT is Over the top. Yes some people do have inhibitions about dancing
and jumping around. I don't fortunately, I love dancing. Anytime
anywhere, I cant do it anymore, but I would love to. (Grin )
My student is rather British male in that respect. :)
>
><snip>
>
>> >I think it will be a very long time before most men will overcome this
>part
>> >of themselves. Sometimes I think it's genetically coded! I guess they
>> >could say the same thing about women and shopping ;-)
>>
>> I think a lot of it is social conditioning, more especially in the
>> women, Women in Celtic times were considered tougher, and more vicious
>> than the men. They were respected.
>> Unfortunately over the century's women were taught to be weak, and to
>> know their place, which wasn't much above that of the animals.
>
>Yes, but didn't Celtic women wear a lot of gold jewelry ;-) If I recall,
>the men did too.
>I have heard once that deep down women are more viscious than men because
>they are the sustainers of life and know exactly how to pull the plug at the
>appropriate time.
Yes its true, Women can be far more vicious than men, and far more
practical,
Though society taught them to be weak, and without value, women have
been strong and tough, as well as vicious.
Many women in their time have been great warriors, and respected as
such.
Snip for space only.
>> , don't
>> give up on yourself. Remember your special to. :)
>> Your not just someone's mum.
>> You deserve a life of your own, and all the happiness you can find.
>
>Oh my god, I can't remember when I last thought of myself in a real way. I
>related to the father in the movie "American Beauty" (one of my favorite
>movies) and his *burnout* (not his attraction to sweet young things ;-). I
>remember sobbing at the end of that movie! Sometimes I don't think I know
>who I am anymore. I have been battling depression for 3 years. I think it
>is due to burnout, especially with my career. Anyway, I don't mean this to
>be a therapy session and bring anyone down. Thanks for your kind words.
Hey we all have times like that, and you would be suprised how many
people on this newsgroup can emphasis, the majority I would think.
It time to start thinking about you, its not a crime you know :)
its dreadful really that women and men have been brought up to think
that thinking about themselves and doing things for themselves is wrong
and that they should feel guilty.
Forget all that, Start to treat yourself, even if its just a more
expensive bath oil, or a day in a beauty salon, have your nails done, or
your hair, Once you start to look better, you start to feel better,
Your confidence and feeling of self worth will improve by leaps and
bounds.
Don't feel guilty when you buy things for yourself, or do things for
yourself, in the long run, your going to feel one hundred per cent
better about you. So that pampering and thought put into your well being
is worth every penny,
Learn to love yourself, its not a sin, its a necessity, if you don't
love yourself, how can you love anyone else, or they love you.
Start to look in a mirror on a regular basis, and see the best of you,
not the worst, So you have wrinkles, I bet they are mostly laughter
lines, so your body doesn't look like Barbies anymore, Who wants to look
like a plastic doll.
Look at your very best features, and start to notice them and simply
talk to that person in the mirror and tell her, how wonderful she is,
Because you are wonderful, think of all the stuff you have gone through,
and you still managed to bring up an almost human teenager, that's a
bloody miracle. :)
In fact that's the begining of glamour magick. (Grin ) learning to look
at yourself and seeing the best. Not the worst. Learning to accept
yourself for who you are , and liking it, and enjoying yourself,
without guilt.
Its suprising easy to do once you start, we all have a good old
fashioned sybarite living inside somewhere, so let it out and pamper it.
.
Shez
>
>>
>> It should be fun to write, I just hope my sense of humour doesn't Take
>> over, I shall have to try to be a bit more serious ;)
>
> Au contraire, the more Shez there is in the book, the more interesting
>it'll be. Your wisdom is organic and speaks across generations, it
>should sound like a conversation with your grandma by the hearth. There
>are many herbal guides (oiy, our bookcases are groaning with them) out
>there, what will make the intimacy of your understanding appealing is
>your voice and presence in the work. You natually speak with a writers
>voice,I don't really think the book will need much dressing up. Have
>you ever read any books by Euell Gibbons, who wrote in the states about
>wildcrafting and such? I mention him because he speaks of plants from
>his experience of them, I feel this way about the Farrars when they
>write... it gives the books the authenticity and color of their
>personal experience.
My goodness, I shall go around with a swelled head now for several
weeks, good job I don't wear hats... (grin )
Thanks for your enthusiasm and kind words, I do have a horrible feeling
that I couldn't write well without my sense of fun getting the better of
me.:)
> Thanks for sharing so much of yourself in your reply, it is eye
>opening,as always, for example I never heard of the mirror and candle
>being used as a gateway during the dumb supper of Hallows.
Any thing but Dumb... loud, fun and occasionally hair raising, (grin)
all the people I remember, enjoyed parties, and loved to laugh, so if
they visit, they will come back to a good old knees up party. :)
> These
>seasonal parties you all give each other at the Great Sabbats, makes me
>think how much we dress stuff up here with ritual oftentimes, perhaps
>when things are so well integrated into ones life, the window dresssing
>isn't required to honor them. One's life is sufficient, if one's life
>is lived as the ritual.
The only ritual really if you can call it that, is the mirror and the
candle to open a gate, nothing is said because its apparent, its a gate,
We just welcome any old friends who want to wonder in.
We always make a toast to the earth for her bounty , drinking half
ourselves and giving half back to the earth. Which is a very traditional
custom anyway.
> I tend to mull things over a bit, so the longer I write the more I
>ask. What is God to you,
Infinity.
> or what term do you use to express your
>experience of a spiritual absolute?
For me its not god, or gods, its everything, every atom, every star,
planet, moon, drop of rain, ocean, mountain, flowers tree's, animals and
humans is part of the divine,
But its a personal belief, and I truly do believe that all of us have to
walk our own spiritual path, and find the truths that are waiting for us
along that path.
>Just wondering when you get
>together as a group, do you Call down the Moon, etc. or potentiate
>these energies in another manner (I realize this shows the biases of my
>own experience here, so it may not even be applicable)?
Its not applicable, we don't call down anything, even thanking the Earth
is done out of respect and as a thanks for a new season, a good harvest,
a mild winter, and a fresh new spring.
We don't share energy's as wiccans do in a circle, simply because its
not our way, we can share a goal, and each put in our personal energy,
but not through a third person.
It works very well indeed, I think because we each concentrate our own
talents on that goal as separate people.
Which is why we are a group, not a coven, together we can teach, learn,
and socialise,
Perhaps many of those who don't feel they belong in a coven, who work
better alone, have found their path is solitary in that magick or energy
is something that they don't feel at ease using in a circle.
It doesn't matter, coven or solitary as long as people choose for
themselves. And are at ease with it.
Gods and goddesses give a human face to the divine, and many people are
far more comfortable with that, its not as easy visualising yourself and
your place in an infinite universe,
It tends to make people feel very small, and negligible, But if one atom
was missing from the universe when it should have been their, then it
would change everything,
Equally if your more at ease with a God or Goddess, then that's the path
for you, We are all different. No better, no worse, just different. :)
We all get to the same place, its just we take different paths.
>~Big Hug,
> Ariel
manra...@my-deja.com
least for the next five minutes.
~Big Hug,
Ariel
nah...@my-deja.com
>I came across a book a while back that addresses this as well as other
things. If you want to see "The Great Mother" in more detail, I highly
recommend it. It's "Mother Nature" by Sarah Blaffer-Hrdy. She's a
biologist and primatologist. I'd like to see every pagan read it. Mama
is not always what western society labels "nice" but at least she's
real and worthy of worship. The book would be found in the science
section of a library or book store.
BB's
Nahaklo
Ventana
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1ehygef.1oxp9r58gvkgwN%ba...@gate.net...
> Ventana <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > What is it about the last three years??? Maybe something astrological?
I
> > too understand the daily struggle, but remember a time when my life was
> > almost effortless and changes came whether I wanted them or not - mostly
> > good changes.
>
> I am not an astrologer, but I understand that something does exist
> called a "Saturn return." As I remember discussions of the matter
> several years ago when my twin-in-law went through such a period (though
> my SO didn't, and one would have thought he would - but that's another
> thread), Saturn returns to its location in one's natal chart every
> thirty-three years or so and causes Bad Things to happen....
Yes, well I'm due for my saturn return in about 25 years. Must be something
else. I actually have read about the last few years being rough for those
under my sign - LEO. Maybe I should just grin and bear it! ;-)
> Comments from astrologers?
Hopefully more light might be shed on all this.
-V
Ventana
people still left in this world such as yourself.
-V
Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MarXjtAo...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
The Shadow Dancer
That is what I always loved about you, and why I will always consider you a
friend, teacher, and long-distance mentor.
To me, you personify what constitutes an Elder, because you share your
wisdom without ever putting another down for being in a different place than
you are, in terms of study or such things.
Recently, I'd run into another who is an elder in the familial tradition she
is initiated into. I have a very hard time relating to her, because she
will oftentimes evince a superior attitude.
Then, I come out here, and see your words, which have always taught me
something, and make me feel very welcome and appreciated for just what I am,
nothing more, nothing less.
Thank you Shez, I hope you never stop sharing.
Love, Light, and Brightest Blessings,
The Shadow Dancer
"Shez" <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GaIVTVAk...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
> In article <8ragus$u72$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, manra...@my-deja.com writes
> >
> >>
> >> It should be fun to write, I just hope my sense of humour doesn't Take
> >> over, I shall have to try to be a bit more serious ;)
> >
Francis Cameron
<sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> writes
>Learn to love yourself, its not a sin, its a necessity, if you don't
>love yourself, how can you love anyone else, or they love you.
>
>Start to look in a mirror on a regular basis, and see the best of you,
>not the worst, So you have wrinkles, I bet they are mostly laughter
>lines, so your body doesn't look like Barbies anymore, Who wants to look
>like a plastic doll.
>Look at your very best features, and start to notice them and simply
>talk to that person in the mirror and tell her, how wonderful she is,
>Because you are wonderful, think of all the stuff you have gone through,
>and you still managed to bring up an almost human teenager, that's a
>bloody miracle. :)
>
>In fact that's the begining of glamour magick. (Grin ) learning to look
>at yourself and seeing the best. Not the worst. Learning to accept
>yourself for who you are , and liking it, and enjoying yourself,
>without guilt.
>
>Its suprising easy to do once you start, we all have a good old
>fashioned sybarite living inside somewhere, so let it out and pamper it.
Yet once again. Thank you, Shez. Wonderful words indeed and so very,
very true.
--
francis freespirit
Oxford, England
Francis Cameron
<sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> writes
>I don't understand why men think we are sweet natured, weak little
>things ;)
We don't! Well, some of us don't, anyway.
Shez
> Thanks much Shez, wosh, would you belive I'm out of questions, at
>least for the next five minutes.
>~Big Hug,
> Ariel
Shez. Faints.....(chuckle )
Shez
<fra...@topdeck.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <KKEWXiAV...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>, Shez
><sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> writes
>>I don't understand why men think we are sweet natured, weak little
>>things ;)
>
>We don't! Well, some of us don't, anyway.
Glad to hear it Francis, (chuckle)
Shez
<morri...@nospam.msn.com> writes
>Dear Shez,
>
>That is what I always loved about you, and why I will always consider you a
>friend, teacher, and long-distance mentor.
>
>To me, you personify what constitutes an Elder, because you share your
>wisdom without ever putting another down for being in a different place than
>you are, in terms of study or such things.
>
>Recently, I'd run into another who is an elder in the familial tradition she
>is initiated into. I have a very hard time relating to her, because she
>will oftentimes evince a superior attitude.
>
>Then, I come out here, and see your words, which have always taught me
>something, and make me feel very welcome and appreciated for just what I am,
>nothing more, nothing less.
>
>Thank you Shez, I hope you never stop sharing.
Thank you Shadow Dancer, Your words are very kind, I remember to well
how difficult it is when your first learning, How impossible it
sometimes looks. And how much difference it can make if you can actually
talk to someone, without feeling your being a nuisance or your somehow
less important.
My own teachers must have pulled their hair out at my constant and never
ending questions :) fortunately they had a lot of patience with a novice
who never stopped asking questions.
Like them I can happily say, I don't know the answer to everything,
because I don't, No one can. But if I do know, then I am happy to answer
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Richard Ballard
>>*That* particular fault seems not to be reserved for the male of the
>>species. I've known plenty of women, for whom nothing that went
>>wrong in their lives was "my fault."
>
>True Baird, its both sex's but I do find that when men leave all the
>house hold tasks, and bill paying to their partners they do get very
>good at saying, Well its nothing to do with me. (Grit teeth..)
I have lived with people of both genders who avoided certain tasks.
One method to ensure fair task-sharing is to demonstrate that a
particular task affects *both* partners, and should be *both* partners
responsibility.
Real example: I shared an apartment with a student whose schedule
forced him to eat meals at irregular hours. He never did dishes to the
point that all of the kitchen's pots and pans were perpetually dirty.
Solution: Pile the dirty dishes and pots and pans inside the door of
his darkened bedroom and wait for him to return to the apartment.
Hypothetical example: Suppose that you share the laundry hamper
and laundry responsibility with your partner, but your partner never
quite manages to do the laundry. Purchase enough underwear to
ensure that you have more underwear than your partner, then wait.
This technique does not work in all issues. I can guarantee, for
example, that I would bring out the vacuum cleaner long before the
"dust bunnies" got big enough to trip anyone.
MysticGoat
Subject: Re: Questions for Shez
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:22:22 -0700
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The first Saturn cycle is completed on the 28th birthday, the second at =
age 56, the third at age 84. A Saturn cycle is the time it takes Saturn =
to complete one orbit around the Sun and return to the same position in =
the zodiac. There are the same number of years in Saturn's cycle as =
there are days in the Moon's cycle. Saturn's varying affect upon =
growth-- realizing one's potential-- is similar to the Moon's cycle of =
waxing and waning.
For readers who are around 42 years old (give or take a couple of =
years): transiting Saturn opposes your natal Saturn. This is the Saturn =
equivalent of a Full Moon, a very intense time with lots of energy, =
things going on. This last happened to you when you were 14. Expect to =
find yourself in situations that in some way have the same feel about =
them as your adolescent experiences (when you were 14). You may find =
that techniques you learned in your adolescence about coping and growing =
can be put to good use with the current crop of problems. You probably =
are not repeating the same things you bumped into as a teen (some people =
do, but generally they don't hang around arwm :-), yet there are =
commonalities in the types of anxieties, etc, and the things that you =
*now* know would have helped you through the rough teen years are likely =
to help you *now*.
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message =
news:1ehygef.1oxp9r58gvkgwN%ba...@gate.net...
> Ventana <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
> > What is it about the last three years??? Maybe something =
astrological? I
> > too understand the daily struggle, but remember a time when my life =
was
> > almost effortless and changes came whether I wanted them or not - =
mostly
> > good changes.
>=20
> I am not an astrologer, but I understand that something does exist
> called a "Saturn return." As I remember discussions of the matter
> several years ago when my twin-in-law went through such a period =
(though
> my SO didn't, and one would have thought he would - but that's another
> thread), Saturn returns to its location in one's natal chart every
> thirty-three years or so and causes Bad Things to happen....
>=20
> Comments from astrologers?
>=20
> Blessed be,
> Baird
>=20
> --=20
> Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
> Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
> Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at
> <http://www.bairdstafford.com>
BB,
--mg
Ventana
news:2000101215...@news.rb.wizzards.net...
>
> For readers who are around 42 years old (give or take a couple of =
> years): transiting Saturn opposes your natal Saturn. This is the Saturn =
> equivalent of a Full Moon, a very intense time with lots of energy, =
> things going on. This last happened to you when you were 14. Expect to =
> find yourself in situations that in some way have the same feel about =
> them as your adolescent experiences (when you were 14). You may find =
> that techniques you learned in your adolescence about coping and growing =
> can be put to good use with the current crop of problems. You probably =
> are not repeating the same things you bumped into as a teen (some people =
> do, but generally they don't hang around arwm :-), yet there are =
> commonalities in the types of anxieties, etc, and the things that you =
> *now* know would have helped you through the rough teen years are likely =
> to help you *now*.
Thanks MysticGoat. I was the one orginially asking about what was going on
in the universe ;-) Since I am 41, your information above helped explain a
lot of things.
-V
Aeseker
expect this to end Mystic Goat? My teenage years were the pits so I don't
really want to repeat them. And I am realizing that I haven't learned much
since then.
--
Aeseker
www.arwm-studygroup.com
"Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WpwF5.352$_o5....@typhoon.san.rr.com...
Baird Stafford
> Grin, and I am 44, so far we are both in the ballpark Ventana. WHEN can we
> expect this to end Mystic Goat? My teenage years were the pits so I don't
> really want to repeat them. And I am realizing that I haven't learned much
> since then.
Give yourself a few years, said the crotchety old man, and you'll
discover just how much you actually *have* learnt since your salad days.
Many people seem to experience a sort of plateau during their forties
during which they can't think of a single thing they've accomplished to
better either themselves or the world - and can remember going to school
(through university, when applicable) but can't think of a single thing
they've learnt since they graduated.
My "plateau" arrived during my early forties, also, when I started to
realize that a) I was still single; b) it was unlikely I'd get much
farther in my career; and c) that I still didn't know what I wanted to
be when I grew up....and then things got frenetic, what with a former
lover moving back into my life and house, drawing me into association
with Mensa and with Wiccans, insisting on a handfasting and then
*lasting*....
In other words, as the old saw has it: "This, too, shall pass." But
*don't* ask me what I want to be when I grow up: I still don't know....
Blessed be,
Baird
--
MysticGoat
Aeseker <Aes...@ATYahoo.com> wrote in message news:V8xF5.2800$tA6.5...@news.uswest.net...
> Grin, and I am 44, so far we are both in the ballpark Ventana. WHEN can we
> expect this to end Mystic Goat? My teenage years were the pits so I don't
Uh... are you asking when you expect to stop breathing, or when you expect to stop growing and learning? <s>
Astrologically, the seven years from your 42nd birthday to your 49th birthday will present you with challenges similar in some ways to those you faced between 14 and 21. And the sequencing of these challenges will be similar.
Saturn completes its orbit about the Sun every 28 years; in the horoscope, every 28 years Saturn casts each transiting aspect to each of the birth chart planets in the same order (ignoring the shifts in retrograde periods). One can expect the same series of life's challenges-- sometimes these may be obviously repeated lessons, but you do get a chance to apply what you learned the first time around to the new material and will be rewarded for that, so even if this seems to be a make-up class, you can open up realms of brand new possibilities. More often, though, the lessons are similar but covering different material (but applying what you've learned before can make them much easier). So when you look back on the challenges of the years between 14 and 21, you are in a sense peeking at the lesson plans that are laid out for your 42nd through 49th year.
I'm talking in 7 year periods here because there is a correspondence between the Moon's cycle of 28 days and Saturn's cycle of 28 years. Aeseker, if you were born in 1955, then you experienced the Saturnian equivalent of the Dark of the Moon (crone energy) in roughly your 17th through 20th years, and the Saturnian equivalent of Diana's Bow (new moon energy) when you were 21-23. Right now you are again facing "the Dark of Saturn" which suggests that crone energy is yours to tap to apply to the current challenges and lessons. This may be a time to work on removing impediments to learning rather than attempting to directly expand your strengths and capabilities. In four years you will be in the Saturn equivalent of the New Moon, which suggests you can then tap Dianic energy for starting something new that will give increasing light, etc, for the next fourteen years. Might want to start thinking about that-- four years can be an awful short time in which to figure out what you want to do when you grow up :^)
> really want to repeat them. And I am realizing that I haven't learned much
> since then.
It isn't a repeat-- there are similarities but you'll be gyring over new territory not circling around and round on a tether. And this time you've got the tremendous advantage of knowing how the winds are going to feel on your wings, beak, and talons; and when to bank, when to stoop, when to soar. I expect you've learned a lot more from your adolescence than you are giving yourself credit for-- I suspect you know how to fly this storm.
> --
> Aeseker
> www.arwm-studygroup.com
>
> "Ventana" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:WpwF5.352$_o5....@typhoon.san.rr.com...
> > MysticGoat <mysti...@BARF.iname.com> wrote in message
> > news:2000101215...@news.rb.wizzards.net...
> > > r.com> <1ehygef.1oxp9r58gvkgwN%ba...@gate.net>
> > > Subject: Re: Questions for Shez
> > > X-Trace: 12 Oct 2000 08:25:11 -0800, 209.40.74.78
> > >
> >
> > > For readers who are around 42 years old (give or take a couple of =
> > > years): transiting Saturn opposes your natal Saturn. This is the Saturn =
> > > equivalent of a Full Moon, a very intense time with lots of energy, =
OOPS! I said *that* wrong! This is transiting Sat opposing natal Sat, when Sat is in the opposite phase as it was at the time of birth. But that phase is probably not like the Full Moon at all.
> > > things going on. This last happened to you when you were 14. Expect to =
> > > find yourself in situations that in some way have the same feel about =
> > > them as your adolescent experiences (when you were 14). You may find =
> > > that techniques you learned in your adolescence about coping and growing =
> > > can be put to good use with the current crop of problems. You probably =
> > > are not repeating the same things you bumped into as a teen (some people =
> > > do, but generally they don't hang around arwm :-), yet there are =
> > > commonalities in the types of anxieties, etc, and the things that you =
> > > *now* know would have helped you through the rough teen years are likely =
> > > to help you *now*.
> >
> > Thanks MysticGoat. I was the one orginially asking about what was going on
> > in the universe ;-) Since I am 41, your information above helped explain a
> > lot of things.
> >
> > -V
Light, Love, Laughter,
--mg
Ventana
news:V8xF5.2800$tA6.5...@news.uswest.net...
we
> expect this to end Mystic Goat? My teenage years were the pits so I
don't
> really want to repeat them. And I am realizing that I haven't learned
much
> since then.
Yeh, I can't seem to remember how I got HERE... Life just goes so fast.
Sometimes I still can't believe I am an adult with a teenager to support.
In my teen years I was locked away in a convent. Once I *escaped* from
Jamaica Prison (I used to call it that due to the fact it was located in the
Jamaica Plain section of Boston.), I was in la-la-land for quite a few years
after that. So I guess I have my whole teenage years to make up! Wow - am
I looking forward to that. I thought Idid that in my thirties ;-) Can I get
my teenage body back? It might be worth it then...
-V
Francis Cameron
<ba...@gate.net> writes
>Many people seem to experience a sort of plateau during their forties
>during which they can't think of a single thing they've accomplished to
>better either themselves or the world
I was like this as I was coming up to my 40th birthday - and every
magazine I opened seemed to contain a pessimistic article telling me 40
was to time to realise you'd never achieve that ambition you had when
you were 20.
Within twelve months I was on a ship sailing to a new life in a new
country 12500 miles away (and you can't be further away from home than
that). That new life opened up all sorts of avenues I'd never have
experienced if I'd stayed put.
40. Mid-life crisis? Bah!!
Francis Cameron
<mysti...@BARF.iname.com> writes
>Saturn completes its orbit about the Sun every 28 years; in the horoscope, every
>28 years Saturn casts each transiting aspect to each of the birth chart planets
>in the same order (ignoring the shifts in retrograde periods). One can expect
>the same series of life's challenges-- sometimes these may be obviously repeated
>lessons, but you do get a chance to apply what you learned the first time around
>to the new material and will be rewarded for that, so even if this seems to be a
>make-up class, you can open up realms of brand new possibilities. More often,
>though, the lessons are similar but covering different material (but applying
>what you've learned before can make them much easier). So when you look back on
>the challenges of the years between 14 and 21, you are in a sense peeking at the
>lesson plans that are laid out for your 42nd through 49th year.
This is brilliant stuff! Where do you get it from? Are there books that
us potential learners can study - or do we have to go learn with someone
who already knows?
MysticGoat
Subject: Re: Re Saturn cycles (was Re: No subject given)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:00:51 -0700
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Francis Cameron <fra...@topdeck.demon.co.uk> wrote in message =
news:Z3SxCWAP...@topdeck.demon.co.uk...
> In article <39e7...@news.rb.wizzards.net>, MysticGoat
> <mysti...@BARF.iname.com> writes
> >Saturn completes its orbit about the Sun every 28 years; in the =
horoscope, every=20
> >28 years Saturn casts each transiting aspect to each of the birth =
chart planets=20
> >in the same order (ignoring the shifts in retrograde periods). One =
can expect=20
> >the same series of life's challenges-- sometimes these may be =
obviously repeated=20
> >lessons, but you do get a chance to apply what you learned the first =
time around=20
> >to the new material and will be rewarded for that, so even if this =
seems to be a=20
> >make-up class, you can open up realms of brand new possibilities. =
More often,=20
> >though, the lessons are similar but covering different material (but =
applying=20
> >what you've learned before can make them much easier). So when you =
look back on=20
> >the challenges of the years between 14 and 21, you are in a sense =
peeking at the=20
> >lesson plans that are laid out for your 42nd through 49th year.
>=20
>=20
> This is brilliant stuff! Where do you get it from? Are there books =
that
> us potential learners can study - or do we have to go learn with =
someone
> who already knows?
I can't provide a good citation. I think I was turned on to this =
approach by Dane Rudhyar's _Astrology of personality_, which I first =
read around 1970, but the book is not indexed and not well laid out as a =
reference, and I haven't been able to find the section where he =
describes the Saturn cycles. Also the copy I have now is not my original =
copy and all my neatly pencilled marginal notes are now but fading =
memories. It is possible that I'm remembering another of Rudhyar's books =
that I no longer have. Or even some other author. I'm afraid my CRS gets =
worse as I get older.
Any book on astrology with a 20+ page section on transits would allow =
you to validate the sequencing of transits, and the period of Saturn's =
orbit is public knowledge. Saturn's traditional influence is also well =
documented, and what I have said does not depart from that.
If you are looking for general access to astrological knowledge, I've =
glanced at _Idiot's guide to astrology_, and it looks like it would do =
the job, in the usual, breezy style. March and McEvers have paired up to =
write a series of short books that I think are excellent for learning =
astrology (with the reservation that I think they put more emphasis on =
computation than I think is necessary with today's software). Also, =
anyone interested in astrology should visit Walter Pullen's site at =
http://astrolog.org/ and download a copy of his freeware Astrolog =
program. There is also some good info on this site, and links to other =
good astrology sites.
> --=20
> francis freespirit
> Oxford, England
>
HTH
--mg
=20
Ventana
> Aeseker <Aes...@ATYahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Grin, and I am 44, so far we are both in the ballpark Ventana. WHEN can
we
> > expect this to end Mystic Goat? My teenage years were the pits so I
don't
> > really want to repeat them. And I am realizing that I haven't learned
much
> > since then.
>
> discover just how much you actually *have* learnt since your salad days.
> during which they can't think of a single thing they've accomplished to
> they've learnt since they graduated.
Interesting point. I never thought about a plateau period duing the
forties. Maybe it's because my son always has my head spinning...I feel I
have accomplished much, but maybe not in the *wordly* sense - although
that's not too bad either. And I have learned much, some not by choice ;-)
> My "plateau" arrived during my early forties, also, when I started to
> realize that a) I was still single; b) it was unlikely I'd get much
> farther in my career; and c) that I still didn't know what I wanted to
> be when I grew up....and then things got frenetic, what with a former
> lover moving back into my life and house, drawing me into association
> with Mensa and with Wiccans, insisting on a handfasting and then
> *lasting*....
Yeah, isn't that funny how things work out? Sometimes things can get so
hectic you start wishing for those quieter, simpler *plateau* times. Sounds
like things got real good for you though. Life has a magic all its own.
> In other words, as the old saw has it: "This, too, shall pass." But
> *don't* ask me what I want to be when I grow up: I still don't know....
Yes, I love that saying. It has gotten me through a lot of tough times.
-V
Ravennestar
My boys are required to take Home ec in the middle school and its not a
survival course either......there is a strict rotation of all the elective
classes so that all students take shop home ec....there are also cooking
competitions in which the winners get small scholarships for summer classes
at the community colleges
Ravennestar
> >
> >Every year, I find myself more and more grateful for a special course I
and
> >every other boy in my junior high school was forced to take. It was
called
> >"Domestic Survival" and was a sort of rudimentary Home Economics for
people
> >who were going to be batchelors some day. Some of us hated it more than
> >others, but every one of us learned how to buy food, cook simple dishes,
> >wash clothes, and generally avoid falling to bits without a Mommy. Minor
> >Sewing Repairs for Thick Fingered Boys and stuff like that.
> >
> >The only thing wrong with the program was the lack of a coresponding
shop
> >class for the girls. They could even have used the same title!
> >
> >BB
> >Darkhound
> >
> I can remember The boys going to electronics and woodworking classes, my
> brother made a crystal radio at one such class, while I went to
> domestic Science classes, learning to cook ect, Girls were taught that
> skill at home anyway.
> I would much have preferred the electronics and woodworking classes
> (Sigh)
> But that sort of Domestic Survival class would be good for guys and
> gals, what a smashing idea. Perhaps they could include how to put on a
> plug, simple wiring, DIY, and decorating.
>
> Maybe the newsgroup should put up a Magick survival site (grin)
Ravennestar
Yes we do understand pain and having given birth to three naturally I know
the pain of birth...in the defense of all the men out there ...there is on
experience that I had that is worse than birth pain.....My gall bladder went
gangrenous and burst. I was 3 days in the ER while they fiddle farted
around...(until a surgeon came down looked at my chart and asked why I was
not admitted 3 days ago)....
As to the other....men have tried to program us that way thru history and
(shudder) almost succeeded....
Ravennestar
> We do understand pain, giving Birth is about the most painful thing
> possible, but I think women just might be able to beat that (grin )
> given the chance.
> I don't understand why men think we are sweet natured, weak little
> things ;)
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >Blessed be,
> >Baird
> >shuddering....
> >
> >
>
Georgina Allen
>
>Yes we do understand pain and having given birth to three naturally I know
>the pain of birth...in the defense of all the men out there ...there is on
>experience that I had that is worse than birth pain.....My gall bladder went
>gangrenous and burst. I was 3 days in the ER while they fiddle farted
>around...(until a surgeon came down looked at my chart and asked why I was
>not admitted 3 days ago)....
>
>As to the other....men have tried to program us that way thru history and
>(shudder) almost succeeded....
>Ravennestar
Eeek ... all these stories are not doing me any good being 5 months
pregnant with my first child, ya know ;o)
But then, I've already decided I'm a coward and going for any drugs they
can give me!
--
G.
I am out of my mind, please feel free to leave a message...
kynoch
Georgina Allen wrote in message ...
>Eeek ... all these stories are not doing me any good being 5 months
>pregnant with my first child, ya know ;o)
>
>But then, I've already decided I'm a coward and going for any drugs they
>can give me!
>
>--
>G.
>
>I am out of my mind, please feel free to leave a message...
>
Well, you might be relieved to know that it's not all horror stories. I've
had three children naturally, with no drugs, & they were all fun labours
with no pain at all, I can honestly say I really enjoyed the experience &
marvelled in my body's ability to get the job done with a minimum of fuss.
Hope it goes as well for you, I think a lot of it is how much you believe
that your body knows what its doing, & just it let it get on with it. The
mind probably interferes far too much.
Vanessa
John & Mari Morgan
>> We do understand pain, giving Birth is about the most painful thing
>> possible, but I think women just might be able to beat that (grin )
>> given the chance.
I'm beating it by not doing that there birth thing! *does the happy
dance* Do we have any more childfree pagans in the peanut gallery?
(Though I have heard from quite a few people who have done both that
passing a kidney stone is just as protracted and even more painful
than giving birth, and you don't even get anything to show off in a
pram - or wake you up at night, so I guess it balances out! - at the
end of it all.)
Blessings,
Mari
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> I'm beating it by not doing that there birth thing! *does the happy
> dance* Do we have any more childfree pagans in the peanut gallery?
Due to circumstances beyond our control, I doubt very much that the SO
and I will be adding to the population at any time soon. Neither of us
is built for it....
<snip>
Clariana
too! (He likes cats).
Clariana
Dutch_Raven
It is a difficult choice for me. But at the moment still happy with hubby
and my two rats. It's nice without the extra worries over kids and with all
the spare time. But once in a while I get those motherly feelings. But as
I'm still young (next april I will have my 26th birthday again)
I can wait some more before making such a life-altering descision.
I have many friends who seem to choose a life without having children or at
least are still putting it off.
Blessed Be (in wathever choice you will make)
Dutch Raven
*It's all in the eye of the beholder*
"John & Mari Morgan" <john...@gis.net> schreef in bericht
news:nr0v3t8b8q6mg4isl...@4ax.com...
Scathach
child is an act of such extreme and profound sacrifice and work (if done
properly) that I KNOW I am not capable of it. And I wish I'd get credit
(instead of grief) for making that decision...
--
allison
I'm not growing up, I'm just burning out.
Green Day
Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be happy.
H.L. Mencken
Your silence will not protect you.
Audre Lourde
>> I'm beating it by not doing that there birth thing! *does the happy
>> dance* Do we have any more childfree pagans in the peanut gallery?
>>
<snip>
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Mari
>>
>
>
Aeseker
First of all, I love children. My friends' kids make me promise that when I
come over, I stay until they get home from school so we can "play". I have two
nephews (4 1/2) that I would give my life for. However.... One of the main
reasons that I finally went into business for myself was that I was extremely
tired of the way childless and especially single people are treated in the
workplace. It is always "assumed" that we have no life outside of the workplace
and are therefore able to work all "family" holidays - which seem to be every
one but Labor Day. Goddess help you if you asked for Christmas off unless you
had told the boss in January that you would be going out of town.
It is accepted and encouraged for parents to take off early for teacher's
conferences, plays, PTA meetings, doing carpool this week, etc. But if a single
person asks to leave early to attend one of THEIR functions (such as rituals),
that is not acceptable. Many, many times have I had to cancel dinner plans
because a last minute problem came up and the person whose responsibility it was
to fix the problem "had to go get the kids".
When a single person calls in sick, you had better have the hospital bill to
prove it. If a parent calls in that little Johnny has a fever, the boss is
totally sympathetic. I'm not saying that a parent shouldn't stay home with a
sick child. But sometimes a child is used as an excuse for a day off. The
companies that see the most abuse of this are ones without any sick leave
policy. Little Johnny seems to have quite a few illnesses under those
circumstances. And the boss doesn't DARE say anything because what kind of
person would criticize someone for staying home with a sick child?
A lot of companies are now giving a set number of sick/personal leave days. You
don't have to lie and say you are sick if you have personal matters to take care
of. Once the sick/personal leave days are used up (regardless of why they were
used), any other absences have to be taken as unpaid leave.
Raising children is a profound responsibility, especially if one is a single
parent. And as with everything else in life, there are emergencies that come up
that must be handled. But if you are a working parent, try to be aware of the
impact that _your_ decision to have children has on your co-workers. And if
sometimes the single co-workers don't seem to care a whole lot that Johnny is
sick (again), ask yourself if the reason why is that they have been doing all
_your_ work with no appreciation or acknowledgment.
One of the techniques that single people are starting to use is to have "fake"
children. You get a picture of friends' kids and put it on your desk. If
people ask about them, you simply state that you want to keep your private life
private. At least this gives singles some of the same "rights" that parents
have.
Rant mode off/
Aeseker
"Scathach" <ko...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:91pe81$4ubjq$1...@ID-11535.news.dfncis.de...