National Cathedral
Greenbanks
the President of the US spoke at a religious (the big three) service today, In
A Church.
One said that, as an atheist she was "made to feel like a non-person."
Now, aside from the fact that nobody can Make you feel anything... what do
people on this group think about today's service at the National Cathedral?
Me? I thought it was handled pretty well, served to offer comfort and reassure
the majority of citizens of this country that the world is not going to fall
apart, and the President didn't say anything of import outside the context of
the event, so it shouldn't be considered a major political speech. (Of course,
I also felt that it was his best speech Ever, in terms of smooth and sincere
delivery)
And it was great to see all the former presidents and high-rankers there too.
N`osal Woodbender
quoting the bible in his speeches. Now is a time when it is good to be closer to
your Gods, whatever the path may be.
Greenbanks wrote:
--
Ya'at'eeh, Greg
Breaking things since 1956
http://members.home.net/nosalwoodbender
bgirl
Maybe since I already know his stance on Pagans and Atheists I wasn't overly
concerned about his lack of representatives in that area.
The music was inspiring. I actually teared up listening to that fabulous
Soloist.
my 2 cents....
bri
"Greenbanks" <green...@aol.commonsense> wrote in message
news:20010914175653...@mb-mj.aol.com...
Baird Stafford
> I have seen a couple of people on another newsgroup getting really angry that
> the President of the US spoke at a religious (the big three) service today, In
> A Church.
Which "Big Three?" Was a Moslem present, too? If so, I didn't see him
- but then, I didn't watch the whole thing: I couldn't take it much
past Billy Graham.
<snip>
Blessed be,
Baird
Baird Stafford
> As is normal for us, we had our own service at home. While I do not
> appreciate Bush quoting the bible in his speeches. Now is a time when it
> is good to be closer to your Gods, whatever the path may be.
Some of the greatest speeches in US history quoted the Bible....
Blessed be,
Baird
Anastasia M. Luettecke
able to cancel classes to attend a religious service "of our choice" this
afternoon, we did allow a local preacher (of a Christian church, Baptist
IIRC) give a rather long prayer over the school loudspeaker system. This
clearly violates Church and State laws, but I didn't mind.
Why not? Because for the first time in as long as my memory serves me, the
entire student body of a school united together in remembering with respect
the lives of people they didn't know personally, but cared for nonetheless.
Too often in this country, teens are seen as self-absorbed and oblivious to
"the real world." Today I saw atheists, Christians, agnostics, and holders
of other beliefs join together with NO animosity toward one another. For
being in the buckle of the Bible belt, I was overjoyed to see this.
Did I feel a bit hurt that my religion was ignored? Maybe a wee tiny, itsy
bitsy bit, but I was more concerned with formulating my own particular
prayer while the preacher was talking. I was allowed the time to pray.
That was what I needed.
Now only if the government would make it a bit less Christ-centered, it
would be perfect.
I wonder if I'm the only pagan out there who thinks we really should allow
prayer back in schools......at least the old "moment of silence" that we
used to have when I was younger.
Any comments?
Shield Ringer
aka
Tasialue
aka
Anastasia
aka
Mrs. Lunatic
Brian Garrett
Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1ezr07c.msdi6ke8o7heN%ba...@gate.net...
It won't be very long now before the Christian Right comes along and says
"See, we told ya this was a Christian nation!
We had Christian ministers, prayers in the *National* Cathedral, singing the
Battle Hymn of the Republic which says "In the glory of the lilies *Christ*
was born across the sea"...
I realize some kind of national ceremony was necessary.
If anyone found it healing and uplifting, then it served its purpose. I
personally found it to be a vivid reminder that we are far from achieving
real separation of church and state in this country, and the abundant
references to the JCI deity a reminder of the raison d'etre of this
service--
namely, patriarchal religion's legacy of planet-wide destruction.
Brian
Nightshade and Flat
"Brian Garrett" <mgy...@home.com> wrote in message
news:oGAo7.4635$Sy1.3...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
>
> Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net> wrote in message
> news:1ezr07c.msdi6ke8o7heN%ba...@gate.net...
> > Greenbanks <green...@aol.commonsense> wrote:
> >
> > > I have seen a couple of people on another newsgroup getting really
angry
> that
> > > the President of the US spoke at a religious (the big three) service
> today, In
> > > A Church.
> >
> > Which "Big Three?" Was a Moslem present, too? If so, I didn't see him
> > - but then, I didn't watch the whole thing: I couldn't take it much
> > past Billy Graham.
There was a Muslim there, yes. I guess I turned it on after Billy Graham,
and left it on only because my baby was napping at the time. Don't want to
poison young minds, ya know. ;)
> It won't be very long now before the Christian Right comes along and says
> "See, we told ya this was a Christian nation!
> We had Christian ministers, prayers in the *National* Cathedral, singing
the
> Battle Hymn of the Republic which says "In the glory of the lilies
*Christ*
> was born across the sea"...
Ah, but in the wee hours of this a.m. I saw a Catholic priest on ABC
condemning statements made by certain prominent preachers about God-smiting.
Already the Xian unified front is beginning to fracture. Let's hope some
more fundie bigmouths spout their poison, and the Xian spin on this whole
situation will go by the wayside.
> I realize some kind of national ceremony was necessary.
> If anyone found it healing and uplifting, then it served its purpose. I
> personally found it to be a vivid reminder that we are far from achieving
> real separation of church and state in this country, and the abundant
> references to the JCI deity a reminder of the raison d'etre of this
> service--
> namely, patriarchal religion's legacy of planet-wide destruction.
All I could think is, "God/dess save us! This idiot is going to lead us
into war!" I told my husband when Dubyah got the nod that the asshole would
drag us into war one way or another, and this is yet another instance where
I wished I was wrong. I just wish Ralph Nader had got the vote, as he
wouldn't have gagged us with Christian platitudes -- just with the facts.
(No less unpleasant, but far less saccharine.)
Love & Laughter,
Nightshade
Yowie
the Catholic heirachy:
"This is not the time for a sermon, it is a time for compassion"
This, I thought, was *exactly* what real faith was supposed to be all about.
Yowie
Chris Cottrell
Then you missed Billy Graham stepping down and walking over and
hugging the Moslem cleric; the only time applause sounded during the
ceremony...
-Chris
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> I wonder if I'm the only pagan out there who thinks we really should allow
> prayer back in schools......at least the old "moment of silence" that we
> used to have when I was younger.
Only if equal time is given to all religions. The Supreme Court
objected to the practice because only *one* religion was represented in
the prayers.
Blessed be,
Baird
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
Yes a Moslem was present and was one of the first to speak, good speech
it was to. I got rather bored with the platitudes and the preachers
after that, heard a little of Bush, enjoyed seeing all the ex
presidents, ( doesn't Clinton look boozy, his cheeks and nose were a
nice shade of glowing red ) Carter looked so old I barely recognized
him. Bush Snr, looked proud as punch of his boy. Of course Reagan was
not their, to ill.
Lovely building, I gather its fairly new, but it looked old, and
beautiful, from the inside at least, I didn't get to see the outside.
It seemed religious and yet managed to be political, and the you got the
feeling that America was a totally committed Christian country.
--
Shez, the Old Craft lady sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
janet
Cottrell <MTN-...@prodigy.net> said
>
>Then you missed Billy Graham stepping down and walking over and hugging
>the Moslem cleric; the only time applause sounded during the ceremony...
That I wish I not only had seen, but had a big photo of - I know next to
nothing about Billy Graham, but this I respect, and hope that others
will take the (large but necessary) hint.
--
janet
francis freespirit
<lu...@fidnet.com> writes
>Now only if the government would make it a bit less Christ-centered, it
>would be perfect.
Is not Jesus the Christ reported as saying: 'Love your enemies. Bless;
and curse not.'?
--
francis freespirit
oxford, england
Paul Hume
> - but then, I didn't watch the whole thing: I couldn't take it much
> past Billy Graham.
>
An Imam was one of the first of the clerics in the group to address
the gathering. His name escapes me.
Paul
Matthew Vincent
wrote:
>President Bush is a committed Christian; we all know that. Of
>*course* he's going to attend a Christian memorial service.
There's a distinction between the person and the position. As George
W. Bush, a private citizen, he is a Christian. As the President of the
United States of America, he should be considered obliged to put his
personal religious beliefs aside and be neutral to religion. So, it
all depends on whether he's attending the services as the President,
or as a private citizen in his private time.
There is a danger here for the USA to slide further into religious
nationalism over this, and that will result in further tragedies. This
is every bit as serious a matter as this horrific terrorist attack.
>I can't BELIEVE I'm freaking defending this man, when Monday night I
>couldn't stand him. But then again, I surprised myself by taking all my
>anti-Bush quotes out of my sig file Wednesday night. For some reason, I've
>lost the desire to pick on him.
You'd probably stick up for the devil himself if it gave you a sense
of hope against the feeling of fear and dread that results from this
terrorist attack. (I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, so I don't
actually believe in the devil, but you know what I mean *g*)
Blessed be,
Matthew
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Lovely building, I gather its fairly new, but it looked old, and
> beautiful, from the inside at least, I didn't get to see the outside.
> It seemed religious and yet managed to be political, and the you got the
> feeling that America was a totally committed Christian country.
The National Cathedral was finished, I think, something less than a
decade ago (unless I've misremembered and it still isn't finished at
all). It was built during most of the twentieth century, IIRC....
It is also an Episcopalean establishment (the American Episcopal Church
is our contribution to the Anglican Communion - a direct descendent of
the CofE). No other sect felt, er, "patriotic" enough to go to the
enormous expense of erecting such an edifice.
Blessed be,
Baird
Yowie
Perhaps 5 minutes or so of designated "quiet time" when those who want to
pray, mediate or just sit with their eyes closed and think calming thoughts
can do so in a quiet and supporting atmosphere?
Yowie
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Lovely building, I gather its fairly new, but it looked old, and
> > beautiful, from the inside at least, I didn't get to see the outside.
> > It seemed religious and yet managed to be political, and the you got the
> > feeling that America was a totally committed Christian country.
>
> The National Cathedral was finished, I think, something less than a
> decade ago (unless I've misremembered and it still isn't finished at
> all). It was built during most of the twentieth century, IIRC....
It was finished during the Presidency of Bush I.
- Darkhawk, who was at the ceremony for the last stone
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Just a world that we all must share, it's not enough just to stand and
stare: Is it only a dream that there'll be no more turning away?
--Pink Floyd, "On the Turning Away"
wsallen
I must say I thought it entirely appropriate and that some religious groups
and atheists (and I *am* an atheist) can be _really_ TO sensitive at times,
I mean get over it....arrrrgh.
But I digress, what gave me an ironic laugh was that the second speaker was
a Muslim cleric (who spoke just as well as the others I heard BTW), I mean
talk about taking a bl**dy huge stick and going "The_ Islamic_ faith
_is_not_our_enemy_!_!" Mind you that kind of obviousness was/is needed for
some nutters out there.
Greenbanks wrote in message <20010914175653...@mb-mj.aol.com>...
Wot 'e said.
Heidi Aussie
Shez
<ba...@gate.net> writes
I was suprised, most churches I saw in America were small and wooden,
with just the occasional stone church.
The cathedral interior looks very similar to many European ones, making
the best use of stone, and wood. It was beautiful.
Deroberts61
>I was suprised, most churches I saw in America were small and wooden,
>with just the occasional stone church.
>The cathedral interior looks very similar to many European ones, making
>the best use of stone, and wood. It was beautiful.
>--
>Shez, the Old Craft lady
Here in Massachusetts most of the many of the churchs are stone or brick
especially the Catholic ones.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Here in Massachusetts most of the many of the churchs are stone or brick
> especially the Catholic ones.
In point of fact, the exterior of the Episcopal church in Salem (also
built of stone) has definite Romanesque overtones to it. I've not been
inside to see whether the theme was carried out there, however.
Blessed be,
Baird
who was there yesterday, but only to visit the Forbidden City....
Shez
<derob...@aol.com> writes
Different areas different materials I suppose, I was in St Louis, and we
did a fair bit of travelling, I think we even got over the borders into
Texas :)
I was fascinated by the houses as well as the churches, nearly all wood,
painted in pretty colours, with big front gardens (Yards)
To my British eyes, they looked very flimsy, though I am sure they are
not. We built in stone and brick because of the British weather. Which
is atrocious most of the year around :)
The houses looked like they should be in a Walt Disney animation, I
couldn't stop looking at them, and took several photos they were so
pretty like something out of a picture book .
--
Shez, the Old Craft lady sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
Puck T. Smith
to see:
>I can't BELIEVE I'm freaking defending this man, when Monday
>night I couldn't stand him. But then again, I surprised
>myself by taking all my anti-Bush quotes out of my sig file
>Wednesday night. For some reason, I've lost the desire to
>pick on him.
>
He's not doing half bad, I suppose, but I know one thing: if the
U.S. had an election for king next week Rudi Gulliani would win
unanimously. Living in the near the District of Columbia I
haven't had much reason to follow New York politics, but I
understand he's one of those kind of politicians people either
love or hate. I suspect their aren't many haters left.
--
Puck the Smith [p_t_smith (at) hotmail (dot) com]
*************************************************
The Earth is a witch and the men still burn her.
--Charlie Murphy
*************************************************
Synnoveah J Cooke
wrote:
>X-No-Archive:yes
>
>"Greenbanks" <green...@aol.commonsense> wrote in message
>news:20010914175653...@mb-mj.aol.com...
>My S.O., a committed "scientific skeptic" and agnostic/atheist, and I had
>this conversation in the car today.
>
>Someone sent me an article in email yesterday making the point that the
>majority religion in this country *is* Christian, so you really can't fault
>folks for wanting to see Christian memorial services. She also pointed out
>that to excise Christianity from the healing process just because a minority
>of people are uncomfortable with it is like saying you shouldn't hold the
>services in English because a minority of people here don't speak English.
>
>I have to agree. Folks, we would all probably be less hardass about
>separation of church and state if idiots like Falwell and Robertson hadn't
>worked so hard to blur or erase the lines, thereby putting everyone else on
>the defensive and redrawing the lines so hard that now people argue about
>whether the President should have said God Bless on TV the other night, or
>whether to take the reference to God off our money. Folks, I don't give a
>rat's ass what the money says or what the President says as long as no one
>is *seriously* trying to jam Christianity down my throat, and the majority
>of Christians in this country don't.
>
>President Bush is a committed Christian; we all know that. Of *course* he's
>going to attend a Christian memorial service. Okay, maybe he could have
>attended a non-Christian service or a secular one to make a nice political
>point but once again, we're in the middle of a fucking international crisis,
>so I don't give a damn *who* he worships with, this is no time for political
>correctness, wherever he is I hope their god is guiding him towards the
>right path of action.
>
>I can't BELIEVE I'm freaking defending this man, when Monday night I
>couldn't stand him. But then again, I surprised myself by taking all my
>anti-Bush quotes out of my sig file Wednesday night. For some reason, I've
>lost the desire to pick on him.
>
>Frenchy
>&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*
I think in addition to what he says, we also should take into
consideration how he says it. And Im pleasantly surprised at Shrub.
I found the service with many religions very comforting, even if there
wasn't one of us there to help with representation.
And the singer was absolutely awesome.
..
Synn
..
Let the fire within you be lit.
Let not one word extinguish it.
Feed it and warm with its light.
Bathe in its glow and surrender
Your ego to its care.
************************
Forgiveness is the scent
the violet leaves on the
heel that crushed it.
*************************
Anastasia M. Luettecke
>> > I wonder if I'm the only pagan out there who thinks we really should
>allow
>> > prayer back in schools......at least the old "moment of silence" that
we
>> > used to have when I was younger.
>>
>> Only if equal time is given to all religions. The Supreme Court
>> objected to the practice because only *one* religion was represented in
>> the prayers.
>
>Perhaps 5 minutes or so of designated "quiet time" when those who want to
>pray, mediate or just sit with their eyes closed and think calming thoughts
>can do so in a quiet and supporting atmosphere?
That's what I mean; back in the mid to late 70s, our little school allowed
about two minutes for a "Moment of Silence" wherein anyone who wished to do
so could pray or think or whatever, and they would receive complete respect
from their classmates and teachers.
I miss that. There's such a lack of respect in my classroom right now, but
when we had our little prayer the other day.....WOW. There was quite a
difference.
Brian Garrett
Anastasia M. Luettecke <lu...@fidnet.com> wrote in message
news:3ba56...@skycache-news.fidnet.com...
As I bumper sticker I used to have put it...as long as there are tests,
there WILL be prayer in schools :)
Brian
Aidan Dyonus
wrote:
Here in Minneapolis, Minnesota we have four churches built on a
'grander' scale.
The Catholic Cathedral in St. Paul (across the river, state capital)
The United Methodist Church in Minneapolis (just south of downtown)
The Episcopal Church in Minneapolis (Within a block of the Methodist
Church)
The Basilica of St. Mary's (stated to be America's first Basilica)
All these are larger structures of stone, stained glass and in the
case of the Cathedral and the Basilica, Brass domes.
I've been inside the Cathedral and the Methodist church... very much
like churches in Mexico that I've seen, highly decorated and very
lovely
Aidan
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal
establishment of Christianity been on trial.
What have been its fruits?
More or less in all places, pride and indolence
in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity;
in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison; 1785.