Vodou Herbalist Working in Jacmel, Haiti -offers instruction online
Raci...@aol.com
or "medsen fey", Loulou Prince. Now his website has been
updated.
Loulou lives and works in Jacmel, Haiti. He raises
livestock, he runs a motorcycle taxi, and he is an
herbalist. He works with Haitian clients and also
with the Roots Without End Society / La Societe
Racine Sans Bout, an international Vodou house
based in Jacmel. He recently assisted the July 2006
Kanzo of the Roots Without End Society, and provided
many of the herbs needed for the sacred ceremonies.
Loulou produces herbal tonics specifically composed
for each individual. He makes herbal powders for
various uses, and he performs plant-based magic.
All of the webpages below contain recent photos and
updated information about Loulou Prince, about his
activities, about the traditional role of a medsen fey,
and about Vodou leaf products available from Loulou
Prince.
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/index.html
... is Loulou Prince's homepage. On this page, Loulou
describes the work of a medsen fey, and gives examples
of his experiences.
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/working_magic.html
... on this page Loulou explains how he does magic.
He shows how he works for clients, even clients who
are some distance away.
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/working_magic2.html
... this page is a short photoessasy documenting a
Vodou leaf ceremony, including possession by a lwa!
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/herbshop.html
... and on this page Loulou offers herbal materials for sale.
The leaf powders presently offered are made from leaves
picked on the southern seacoast of Haiti, dried, pounded
during Vodou ritual using a consecrated mortar, and
sieved to perfect fineness by hounsis singing sacred songs!
These leaf powders are authentic and difficult to obtain.
You can email Loulou Prince at medsen_fey @ yahoo.com .
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra" - Good is rare
Haitian proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
The Vodou Forum -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mambo_Racines_Vodou_Forum
Vodou Across the Water -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vodou_Across_the_Water
Jules
one here is interested in buying your Voodoo penile enlargers, or your
Voodoo AIDS medicine. Why don't you post that garbage on the other occult
groups in your header. Nobody here is interested in your Satanic trash. Why
do you insist on associating us with your Voodoo garbage?
Jules
Raci...@aol.com
Jules is obviously insane, but for the benefit of rational
readers, I will point out that Loulou Prince is a Haitian man,
working in Jacmel, Haiti; earning money through a traditional
Haitian occupation - that of medsen fey, or herbalist.
I did not make Loulou Prince a medsen fey! He had those
skills long before I met him. He works with me, he earns money.
He works for Haitian clients too, and did long before I met him.
I don't know why Jules says things he knows to be untrue,
but in any case, the truth of the matter is as I have stated
it above. If anyone wants to contact Loulou they can -
his email is medsen_fey @ yahoo.com . Or they can
call him at the Jacmel TELECO office, all they have to
do is arrange a time. Loulou doesn't speak English, so
if you don't speak Haitian Creole, have a translator.
Loulou teaches seminars in leaf medicine and herbal
magic, and people come from all over the world to learn
from him. He is happy, they are happy. If Jules and
others like him are not happy... too bad!
In fact, we are presently beginning a teaching unit on
Grand Bwa, and Loulou is helping me. We are doing this
activity on the Vodou Forum at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mambo_Racines_Vodou_Forum
Come and join us, why not?
:-)
Peace and love,
Mambo Racine
Jules
interested in selling your Voodoo services. I'm just hoping that you finally
acquiring some common sense, and realize that your Voodoo trash is really
not welcome here.
Because of you any search for voodoo on Google returns soc.culture.haiti as
a response. This, even though we only touch on the subject every now and
then, and we do it's always on an intellectual level. But you're not
interested in discussion. You're using our group to lure people to your
site, and those you've created for your disciples, so you can sell them
worthless Voodoo garbage. It's simply not fair for you to continue to do
that. Post that junk where it's wanted. You've become quite an irritant
around here.
Jules.
Nomen Nescio
> Listen again! I'm not interested in discussion with you , since you're only
> interested in selling your Voodoo services. I'm just hoping that you finally
> acquiring some common sense, and realize that your Voodoo trash is really
> not welcome here
Not welcome where? You have cross-posted to four groups. Do you claim
to speak for all of them?
Jaime G
Jules
>
> Not welcome where? You have cross-posted to four groups. Do you claim to
> speak for all of them?
>
cross-responding.
J.
Raci...@aol.com
Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Jules wrote:
> > Listen again! ...your Voodoo trash is really
> > not welcome here
>
> Not welcome where? You have cross-posted to four groups. Do you claim
> to speak for all of them?
>
> Jaime G
Jaime, don't pay any attention to Jules. He's a troll,
and he's got all the psychological complexes attendant
to an uptight, anti-African upbringing.
I post to alt.religion.voodoo for obvious reasons. I
also include alt.religion.orisha out of RESPECT,
because for a long time there was no alt.religion.voodoo,
there was only alt.religion.orisha. I post to
soc.culture.haiti also for obvious reasons, and I
have been posting there since 1996! I've been
living in Haiti since 1987, although I am presently
in the USA. And I post to alt.pagan because I
like alt.pagan, have posted there since 1996,
and reach a wider audience there than I do here.
And YES, I do hope that Loulou Prince gets some
customers, why not? He's a poor black Haitian
man, living in Haiti, trying to earn money fulfilling
a traditional role in his community, that of "medsen
fey", or herbalist.
Jules apparently feels that discussion of Vodou
is marginally acceptable only if it is on an
"intellectual level" (I leave Jules' posts to indicate what
his "intellectual level" actually is), but as interesting as
it can be to sit and discuss the works of Riguad
and Metraux, I am teaching about Vodou from a
very contemporary, here-and-now basis; and I am
offering links to Haitian practitioners so that the
reader can learn from them as well as from me.
Jules
>
>
> Jaime, don't pay any attention to Jules. He's a troll,
> and he's got all the psychological complexes attendant
> to an uptight, anti-African upbringing.
>
is obvious who is the troll here. I post to one group, except when I respond
to your cross posted Voodoo spam. I have no choice but respond to all the
groups you post to, since I don't know which group your newsreader is set to
receive.
>
>I post to alt.religion.voodoo for obvious reasons. I
> also include alt.religion.orisha out of RESPECT,
> because for a long time there was no alt.religion.voodoo,
> there was only alt.religion.orisha.
>
lot in common can share your interests and experiences.
>
> I post to soc.culture.haiti also for obvious reasons.
>
What the hell is the obvious reasons???? That Haitians are a bunch of
ignorants who worship the devil, so therefore you give them more of what
they need?
>
> and I have been posting there since 1996!
>
voodoo spam, and I'm sure you made yourself a lot of money, and built your
reputation on the backs of many of us who in our silence, or passivity have
allowed your spam to pollute this group. Is is obvious that your trash is
not welcome here, since in all those years, no one bothers to engage you in
voodoo dialogue.
>
> And I post to alt.pagan because I
> like alt.pagan, have posted there since 1996,
> and reach a wider audience there than I do here.
>
concerns.
>
> And YES, I do hope that Loulou Prince gets some
> customers, why not? He's a poor black Haitian
> man, living in Haiti, trying to earn money fulfilling
> a traditional role in his community, that of "medsen
> fey", or herbalist.
>
you devotees. You're nothing but a snake oil sales woman, who's ripping off
ignorant people of their hard earned money, and you should be ashamed of
yourself.
>
> Jules apparently feels that discussion of Vodou
> is marginally acceptable only if it is on an
> "intellectual level" (I leave Jules' posts to indicate what
>
I don't claim to be an intellectual. I only insinuated that I am interested
in intellectual dicussions.
>
> but as interesting as
> it can be to sit and discuss the works of Riguad
>
Anything but Voodoo.
>
> I am teaching about Vodou from a
> very contemporary, here-and-now basis; and I am
> offering links to Haitian practitioners so that the
> reader can learn from them as well as from me.
>
and those who love shit. Give us a damm break
>
> Peace and love,
>
Peace and Love my ass, you're nothing but a fucking thief.
Jules
Raci...@aol.com
Jules wrote:
> For someone who's not even Haitian, you seem to know a lot about me.....
I don't have to be Haitian to identify a hateful troll. I think
anyone who reads your posts can form an opinion, really.
> > I post to soc.culture.haiti also for obvious reasons.
> >
> What the hell is the obvious reasons???? That Haitians are a bunch of
> ignorants who worship the devil, so therefore you give them more of what
> they need?
Why do you define Haitians as "a bunch of ignorants
who worship the devil"? I think YOU are ignorant, if that
is your idea of Vodouisant people.
Vodou is the MAINSTREAM RELIGION OF HAITI.
That alone makes it appropriate for a topic in soc.culture.haiti.
Furthermore, Loulou Prince is HAITIAN, he is living
in HAITI, he is working in HAITI, his traditional work
as a medsen fey (leaf doctor) is a HAITIAN tradition,
and many of the people he helps are HAITIAN.
Now, you've been trolling and ranting for a long time,
and it doesn't matter if I post about Vodou based on my
experience as a Mambo, or if I post about human rights
in Haiti based on my experience as a United Nations
Human Rights Observer and a Reuter's journalist and
a political asylum caseworker. No matter what I
talk about, you flame. And the main thrust of every single
flame is that you want me to shut up. Well... too bad!
You don't run soc.culture.haiti ! And you are not my boss.
You are arrogant and out of bounds, frankly. If you
don't like my posts, don't read them. If you don't want
me to make money, don't buy Vodou-related merchandise
from me. If you are so full of venom that you don't
want even Loulou Prince to earn money, then don't buy
anything from him either.
> Peace and Love my ass, you're nothing but a fucking thief.
What have I stolen from you?
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer
> For someone who's not even Haitian, you seem to know a lot about me..... It
> is obvious who is the troll here.
Oui. C'est vous.
> What the hell is the obvious reasons???? That Haitians are a bunch of
> ignorants who worship the devil, so therefore you give them more of what
> they need?
Djab-yo sé Christ-ou. Et ses prêtres pédérastes.
The devil that plagues the Caribbean is the church that prohibits birth
control and condoms while supporting brutal dictators, guaranteeing
poverty and AIDS. A vile marriage between the oppressors of the people
and the purveyors of a poison worse than opium. All Catholic countries
are impoverished for the same reasons: Priests on the one hand and
Presidents-for-Life, caudillos, whatever you want to call them. Ifá
comes from grass roots, no wonder the oppressors of the people hate it.
>>
> Peace and Love my ass, you're nothing but a fucking thief.
Et vous êtes un salaud mal éduqué dont les attaques ad hominem contre
Madame ne cachent point les mensonges de votre fausse église. Do you
kiss your maman with that mouth?
Disgusted,
Jaime G
--
Si mi tía tuviera ruedas sería una bicicleta.
Jules
and you know what is, and what is not spam. I know that old habits are hard
to break, but you have to try hard on this one. Post that shit somewhere
else, show us some respect.
You and I have debated Voodoo before, and I'm always ready to do so with
you, or anyone else anytime. But spam is a pollutant, which drives away
serious posters from any group. You've been kicked out of Yahoo groups, and
God only knows how many more. Since this is not a moderated group, you
cannot be banished, but you will be rebuked, and everyone will know that
your spam is not tolerated here.
The racists seem to have more common sense than you do, since they long
understood that their trash is not tolerated here, and they left us alone.
But you somehow feel that you have a green light to spam us at will, because
no one seems to object. The truth is, we all do.
Again let's debate Voodoo. I'll take you on, and I promise to be respectful.
As respectful as one can be relating to a Spamming Voodoo Mambo, but you
continue to spam this group, I'll continue to kick your ass.
Jules.
Jules
Doug, Dara, Traveler, Leone, 5thWind, Jafrikayiti, and all of us who
continue to make this place the oasis that it is. I'm sorry for the harsh
language. I can't promise that it won't occur again. As you know, it takes
two to tango.
I want to express my gratitude to you all for putting up with my rant. As
for Racine, I again want to say: please show us some respect if you do love
us like you say you do. Be mindful that some of us don't appreciate the
constant spamming, even though we don't say nothing about it.
Jules.
Raci...@aol.com
summarized:
> Post that shit somewhere
> else... your spam is not tolerated here... The racists
> seem to have more common sense than you
> do...I'll continue to kick your ass.
Apparently Jules defines "spam" as "anything with which
Jules disagrees". And cursing and threats of violence
are appropriate responses, according to him.
Now Jules, I don't want you to shut up, but I do want you
to grow up. You are not doing one thing to help Loulou
Prince or any other Haitian traditional practitioner. You
don't feed him, you don't take care of him if he is sick
or hurt. So I would suggest you move over, Rover, and
let me help Loulou Prince reach a wider audience. This
thread is about HIM, it is not about YOU.
kafou...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>On a side note, I apologize to Annette, Kafou, Gro Mango, annick, Captain
>Doug, Dara, Traveler, Leone, 5thWind, Jafrikayiti, and all of us who
>continue to make this place the oasis that it is. I'm sorry for the harsh
>language. I can't promise that it won't occur again. As you know, it takes
>two to tango.
>
Come on.... You always pick fights with her, why?
If you are confident in your spirituality, why do you feel threatened
by hers? If she were pushing Xianity, would you be more tolerant?
>I want to express my gratitude to you all for putting up with my rant.
No problem.
>As
>for Racine, I again want to say: please show us some respect if you do love
>us like you say you do. Be mindful that some of us don't appreciate the
>constant spamming, even though we don't say nothing about it.
Jules, don't fret the small stuff.
Kafou "You are welcome." Lobo
kafou...@yahoo.com
wrote:
<snip>:
>Bullshit! You are a God dammed Voodoo spammer. Keep that shit to yourself,
>and those who love shit. Give us a damm break
God and shit in the same sentence?
"Thou shall NOT cite the Lord's name in vain."
K.
Jules
>
> Apparently Jules defines "spam" as "anything with which
> Jules disagrees".
>
J.
Jules
>
> If you are confident in your spirituality, why do you feel threatened
> by hers? If she were pushing Xianity, would you be more tolerant?
>
gods. But that's a whole other bowl of wax, that's truly irrelevant to the
subject at hand.
We get spammed here just like any other group, and it's not a major problem.
It used to be, but it is no longer the case. But she is a prolific spammer,
and you know it. Never mind the fact that you have met her personally. She
is what she is, a perennial spammer, a blood sucking leech that's sucking
the energy out of anything she touches. Just keep on ignoring her, I'll keep
on getting in her her face, every time she rears her ugly head. Hopefully
some day she will get the message
Jules
Capt.Doug
sentence?
Most Christians I know would take exception to using 'God' and 'damn'
together.
> "Thou shall NOT cite the Lord's name in vain."
Especially if one routinely spouts scripture. Is Jules the Bible Thumper
displaying animosity, anger, and retribution, which runs counter to the
Lord's teachings? With a lack of compassion, the soapbox crumbles.
D.
Nomen Nescio
> You have no idea what you're talking about. There is God, and there are
> gods
What is the difference and what is your evidence? Number of teats?
Molecular weight? Do they have genitals or pedipalps?
Curieux,
jafri...@hotmail.com
Nothing strange here. Religious fanatism always brings out the worst in
any human being.
Jules is pushing Christianity with zeal and Manbo Racine is boldly
helping her business prosper.
The sad thing is that Jules for all his expressed contempt for Manbo
Racine's activities (doing commerce with Vodou) does not recognize that
he is also pushing the biggest multinational corporation there is - the
Christianity corporation.
All talk about compassion and the "Lord's teachings" is irrelevant
here. Yeshua has been killed and buried by the Roman Empire for over
2000 years now. Anyone can use his name and the tales told about him to
build whatever they wish....and, indeed, they have.
What I hope for is that soon rather than too late Haitians in
particular, Africans in general, will wake up to the fact that colonial
religion is nothing to wage war on your fellow human being over. This
powerful tool is being used to subjugate, enslave (physically and
mentally), oppress (campagne des rejetés), mass destroy (Jonestown,
Wako, etc...), and brainwash a people that desperately needs to
liberate its energies for nation-building.
Unfortunately, the Vodou tradition has also been tainted with some of
the most destructive elements of Christianity - the use of imagery to
convey anti-African subliminal messages. While Manbo Racine is quick to
label Jules as one who harbours anti-African reflexes, does she realize
that the same process which brought about these very real anti-African
reflexes in black Christians are also at play in the Vodou tradition?
Why so many white representations of the Vodou pantheon continue to
pollute the minds of generations upon genrations of black Haitians?
Does this not contribute to the fact that so many Haitians are willing
to confer authority over them to European and Euro-American foreigners
who, in their own country, would not be put in charge of corner store?
A final word to Jules... brother, this is the internet - a free space
where neither yourself nor Manbo Racine pay a membership fee. So,
neither one of you can block the other from expressing their views or
selling their products or corporations. In the end, the market will
regulate itself. Aren't you both die hard capitalist? For once take the
advice of a Fidel Castro fan and chill out !
Male !
Jafrikayiti
Raci...@aol.com
jafri...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Jules is pushing Christianity with zeal and Manbo Racine is boldly
> helping her business prosper.
You know, I am getting a bit weary of this.
First of all, I am a Mambo and not a "Manbo".
If Jean-Afrik wants to respect our clergy, he could
at least listen to a Mambo telling him what she
is called!
Second - this thread is NOT ABOUT ME. It is NOT
ABOUT MY "BUSINESS". It is about LOULOU PRINCE.
Loulou Prince is an herbalist, a medsen fey, and this
thread is about HIS BUSINESS. The object of promoting
Loulou Prince is to help him attract clients, make
contacts, and DO BUSINESS. When HE does HIS
BUSINESS, HE makes HIS MONEY, in HAITI.
Duh.
I don't know how much more clearly I can say this.
Third, supposed I was "boldly helping my business
prosper" in some way. So? GOOD! I am supposed
to prosper, why should I not prosper? I am not sure
in what way I am assumed to prosper if Loulou
Prince's web page receives more visitors, but what
if I did? Good for me.
> While Manbo Racine is quick to
> label Jules as one who harbours anti-African reflexes, does she realize
> that the same process which brought about these very real anti-African
> reflexes in black Christians are also at play in the Vodou tradition?
> Why so many white representations of the Vodou pantheon continue to
> pollute the minds of generations upon genrations of black Haitians?
Wrong.
Haitian Vodouisants use those images by choice. Using
them appropriates the power of those images. Haiti is
a Vodouisant-majority country, and if people didn't want
to use those images then they wouldn't sell. When
people use those images, no one is thinking, "Oh, so,
Ogoun is a white man." Everyone knows Ogoun is a
Nago guy. But the image carries a vibe that works with
Ogoun. It's useful.
> Does this not contribute to the fact that so many Haitians are willing
> to confer authority over them to European and Euro-American foreigners
> who, in their own country, would not be put in charge of corner store?
I am not sure which "Euro-American foreigners who
wouldn't be put in charge of a corner store" you think
now have "authority" in Vodou! But let me explain to
you that the rules of Vodou are the same for everyone,
and it is Papa Loko who has "authority". If you keep
the rules you prosper, and I don't care what your
ethnicity may be. And there are plenty of not-too-
bright Haitian Houngans, who couldn't run a corner store
either. But if they run their house the right way, if they do
right by their clients, Vodou will support them.
Status in Vodou is not gained overnight! A person
may kanzo, may even take the asson, and this
alone does not make of that person an "authority"
or a well-known, widely reputed Houngan or Mambo!
That comes with time, as a Houngan or Mambo
builds their house.
Jules
>
> You know, I am getting a bit weary of this.
> First of all, I am a Mambo and not a "Manbo".
>
>
> If Jean-Afrik wants to respect our clergy, he could
> at least listen to a Mambo telling him what she
> is called!
>
describe Voodoo as a clergy.
>
> Second - this thread is NOT ABOUT ME. It is NOT
> ABOUT MY "BUSINESS". It is about LOULOU PRINCE.
> Loulou Prince is an herbalist, a medsen fey, and this
> thread is about HIS BUSINESS. The object of promoting
> Loulou Prince is to help him attract clients, make
> contacts, and DO BUSINESS. When HE does HIS
> BUSINESS, HE makes HIS MONEY, in HAITI.
>
not a place for you to promote deceptive Voodoo products for yourself, or
your associates? It is a discussion group where we share our thoughts, and
common concerns. We can discuss Voodoo if that is what you want to do, but
get the spam out of here.
>
> Third, supposed I was "boldly helping my business
> prosper" in some way. So? GOOD! I am supposed
> to prosper, why should I not prosper? I am not sure
> in what way I am assumed to prosper if Loulou
> Prince's web page receives more visitors, but what
> if I did? Good for me.
>
>
> Haitian Vodouisants use those images by choice. Using
> them appropriates the power of those images. Haiti is
> a Vodouisant-majority country, and if people didn't want
> to use those images then they wouldn't sell. When
> people use those images, no one is thinking, "Oh, so,
> Ogoun is a white man." Everyone knows Ogoun is a
> Nago guy. But the image carries a vibe that works with
> Ogoun. It's useful.
>
with you. You're so lost in a dense haze of demonic smog that you don't even
recognize reality anymore, if you ever did.
Jules.
jafri...@hotmail.com
Raci...@aol.com wrote:
> jafri...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Jules is pushing Christianity with zeal and Manbo Racine is boldly
> > helping her business prosper.
>
> You know, I am getting a bit weary of this.
>
> First of all, I am a Mambo and not a "Manbo".
> If Jean-Afrik wants to respect our clergy, he could
> at least listen to a Mambo telling him what she
> is called!
Manbo used in the Haitian context as a Kreyòl word is written with two
consonnants (M,b) and two vowells (an, o) = M-an-b-o. This is basic
linguistics and has nothing to do with religion, respect or whatever
power trip you may be on.
> Second - this thread is NOT ABOUT ME. It is NOT
> ABOUT MY "BUSINESS". It is about LOULOU PRINCE.
> Loulou Prince is an herbalist, a medsen fey, and this
> thread is about HIS BUSINESS. The object of promoting
> Loulou Prince is to help him attract clients, make
> contacts, and DO BUSINESS. When HE does HIS
> BUSINESS, HE makes HIS MONEY, in HAITI.
Of course it's about your business as well. You promote his business on
the net, clients that go to him because of your referrals credit you
and by word of mouth your influence and business prospers even more
inside Haiti. Simple capitalist principle of marketing.
> Third, supposed I was "boldly helping my business
> prosper" in some way. So? GOOD! I am supposed
> to prosper, why should I not prosper? I am not sure
> in what way I am assumed to prosper if Loulou
> Prince's web page receives more visitors, but what
> if I did? Good for me.
I never suggested otherwise. In fact I wish some of your Christian
competitors operating in Haiti could also be more upfront about their
business objectives.
I wrote:
> > While Manbo Racine is quick to
> > label Jules as one who harbours anti-African reflexes, does she realize
> > that the same process which brought about these very real anti-African
> > reflexes in black Christians are also at play in the Vodou tradition?
> > Why so many white representations of the Vodou pantheon continue to
> > pollute the minds of generations upon genrations of black Haitians?
and Manbo Racine replied:
> Wrong.
>
> Haitian Vodouisants use those images by choice.
I never suggested they were forced to use them.
>Using
> them appropriates the power of those images.
Yeah right !
>Haiti is
> a Vodouisant-majority country, and if people didn't want
> to use those images then they wouldn't sell. When
> people use those images, no one is thinking, "Oh, so,
> Ogoun is a white man." Everyone knows Ogoun is a
> Nago guy.
Unfortunately, if left alone eventually Vodou's Ogou, will be given the
Michael Jackson treatment, just has been done with Moses, Jesus and
Tutankhamun
>But the image carries a vibe that works with
> Ogoun. It's useful.
Yes, it is useful to maintain the association of whiteness with divine
strength - as developed over the years of colonization and subsequent
pollution of the African belief system by white supremacist
christianity over the years of racial slavery.
The generations of Makandal, Boukman used those images as a means of
survival -
http://www.mamiwata.com/voodoohistory.html
But, as they are maintain in modern-day Haiti, they indeed contribute
to the fact that so many Haitians are willing to confer authority over
them to European and Euro-American foreigners who, in their own
country, would not be put in charge of a corner store?
> I am not sure which "Euro-American foreigners who
> wouldn't be put in charge of a corner store" you think
> now have "authority" in Vodou!
I was not referring to the religion but about the nation's business in
general. As a white american woman who is focused on running her
religion-based business in Haiti, you do not have to concern yourself
about the fact that every Haitian child grows up dominated by images of
white power in church (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the saints, the Pope, the
visiting missionaries), in Vodou peristyles (the African lwas that have
no African face to represent them but the same all-blond saints of
Christianity), in School (from Christopher Columbus who adorns the
first page of their history books) or in politics where the always
white U.S. Ambassador in Haiti is effectively more powerful than any
Haitian Head of State.
>But let me explain to
> you that the rules of Vodou ....
Get real Manbo Racine ! I am not one of those who take you seriously.
So, please spare me the lesson!
Your business does not bother me. It's your arrogant way of wanting to
tell Haitians how to write their language or what in their culture they
need to fix that's an annoyance to me. But, then again, it's just an
annoyance not a serious concern. So do you thing girl !
Jules
from alt.pagan? Why are you showing them respect, and not us?
Jules.
Raci...@aol.com
> Manbo used in the Haitian context as a Kreyòl word is written with two
> consonnants (M,b) and two vowells (an, o) = M-an-b-o. This is basic
> linguistics and has nothing to do with religion, respect or whatever
> power trip you may be on.
Mambo is pronounced with two "M's". MaM-bo. Both M's
are pronounced and therefore in Creole both M's should
be written, no matter whatever power trip you may be on.
Can't stand to be contradicted, it gets you mad, doesn't it?
You pretend to be all intellectual, but scratch the surface
and all the typical complexes come tumbling out.
> > Second - this thread is NOT ABOUT ME. It is NOT
> > ABOUT MY "BUSINESS". It is about LOULOU PRINCE.
> Of course it's about your business as well. You promote his business on
> the net, clients that go to him because of your referrals credit you
> and by word of mouth your influence and business prospers even more
> inside Haiti. Simple capitalist principle of marketing.
Do you really believe that when I do a website, for FREE,
to help Loulou Prince build his reputation and attract
clients, that when the website does attract clients, that
this puts money in my pocket?
I swear, if I was just working as a Mambo, taking all
the business I could for myself, you would scream that
I was mean and selfish. But when I work, for FREE,
to help a Haitian traditional practitioner make his own
money, now I'm supposed to be following "capitalist
principles of marketing"! You don't know what you want!
Has it ever dawned on you that I might just simply be
doing something to help someone else, without thought
of monetary recompense? Just because YOU would
never do anything to help anyone else, doesn't mean that
other people are the same way.
But I repeat - suppose my sole and single motive
were to make money, SO WHAT? I have over twenty
five Haitian members who are active in my house on a
daily basis, if I have no money, who will pay for the
doctor and the dentist and the school fees? I had one
initiate whose mouth cost me $1000 US, for sixteen
extractions and dentures flown in from Miami! If I
have no money, how many pigs or cows can I kill?
What will my children eat? Certainly I want money!
I am just not making any trying to promote Loulou
Prince, that's all, I am doing that because I want him
to make money.
Of the images of Catholic saints used in the service
of the lwa, I wrote:
> >Haiti is
> > a Vodouisant-majority country, and if people didn't want
> > to use those images then they wouldn't sell. When
> > people use those images, no one is thinking, "Oh, so,
> > Ogoun is a white man." Everyone knows Ogoun is a
> > Nago guy.
>
> Unfortunately, if left alone eventually Vodou's Ogou, will be given the
> Michael Jackson treatment
That's YOUR trip. You are all worried that somehow
white people will appear in Vodou, in the images, in the
clergy... well, white people have been in Vodou for a long
time, white women brought the service of Maman Brigitte
way back in colonial days! Stop obessing about the
presence of white people.
> >But the image carries a vibe that works with
> > Ogoun. It's useful.
>
> Yes, it is useful to maintain the association of whiteness with divine
> strength
Again, that is YOUR trip, you are all worried about white
images and God forbid "white" should be associated with anything
good, that worries you. But the fact is, no one in Haiti
looks at that picture and says, "Ah hah, Ogoun is a white
man and whiteness is associated with divine strength,
thus my service to Ogoun is made more powerful," that's
absurd.
> As a white american woman who is focused on running her
> religion-based business in Haiti, you ...
I am not white. I do not have a "religion-based business".
Get your information straight.
I am a Mambo. ALL MAMBOS WORK FOR MONEY.
That is PART of the religion - we make money from clients
and we give it to our initiates. See "Money in Vodou" -
http://members.aol.com/racine125/money.html .
> every Haitian child grows up dominated by images of
> white power in church (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the saints
Suppose they were imaged as black? Then would
white people be injured and "dominated" by looking at
those images?
> (the African lwas that have
> no African face to represent them
Who told you THAT? Even among the images of the
saints there are black ones. But the most common image
of Ogoun is the face of the Houngan in my house who
most frequently undergoes Ogoun possession, and he
is black! As if it makes any difference - but really, the
average Haitian has seen Ogoun talking to him out of
a black face a lot more often than he has seen a paper
image of a white guy on a horse!
Those images confuse no one. You are on your race-hater
trip, and you know so little about Vodou and about how
we practice, so you talk this political line that is totally
irrelevant to the vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants.
> Get real Manbo Racine ! I am not one of those who take you seriously.
Then f*ck you.
Excuse my language, but I am frankly disgusted by
people like you, who come here practicing character
assassination, trying to slam and slander for no
reason whatsoever, acting our your arrogance and
scorn and disdain, and in the meantime, you care
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT LOULOU PRINCE,
a Haitian man who is the topic of this thread!
You have time to do all this negative BS, you do nothing
to help Loulou Prince, you have nothing positive to say,
and then you claim not to "take seriously" what I am
doing, or me personally. If you accord me, and Loulou
Prince, so little respect, then when I promote Loulou, keep
your nasty, racist, snotty comments to yourself!
Either that, or CONTACT LOULOU PRINCE and do
something to help him, put your damn flapping
jawbone to some constructive purpose.
SINCERELY!
Mambo Racine
Raci...@aol.com
Jules wrote:
> Heh! I see you trimmed your header... Did someone send you a nasty email
> from alt.pagan? Why are you showing them respect, and not us?
You're a fine one to talk about respect! You
show none to anyone.
The reason I trimmed alt.pagan off the header is
because your obsessions with me and Janafrik's
obsessions with white people have nothing to do
with the topic of the original post, which is:
LOULOU PRINCE!
Not you. Not me. Not how much you hate Vodou.
Not how much it upsets Janafrik to see white people
in Vodou - LOULOU PRINCE is the topic of the
post which originated this thread.
I feel that Loulou Prince's work as a medsen fey
would be of interest to people on alt.pagan. I do not
feel that your idiocy, or the hatefullness of Janafrik,
are relevant to the topic, which, again, is...
LOULOU PRINCE!
Sincerely,
Mambo Racine
Jules
is still plenty of respect if you care to look beyond, or through the words.
But sometimes one gets more acomplished by style, rather than content. There
are times when a spade has to be called a spade,because no other word will
do the trick.
>
> The reason I trimmed alt.pagan off the header is
> because your obsessions with me and Janafrik's
> obsessions with white people have nothing to do
> with the topic of the original post, which is:
> LOULOU PRINCE!
>
improper place for you to promote your Voodoo business, or those of your
associates? Why do you refuse to accept the fact that you are spamming us,
and that it is inapropriate for you to continue to do so?
>
> Not you. Not me. Not how much you hate Vodou.
>
religion" We have a major disagreement. I'm willing to, and at many
occasions have debated the subject with you, and I'm always willing to do
so. But that's another issue. Spam is what we're talking about.
>
> Not how much it upsets Janafrik to see white people
> in Vodou
>
>
> LOULOU PRINCE is the topic of the
> post which originated this thread.
>
promote his business. It is wrong for you to use us as a vehicle to make a
profit for yourself, or your friends.
>
> I feel that Loulou Prince's work as a medsen fey
> would be of interest to people on alt.pagan.
>
apropriate for you to do so, if it's ok with them. But we're not an occult
oriented group.
>
> I do not feel that your idiocy, or the hatefullness of Janafrik,
> are relevant to the topic, which, again, is...LOULOU PRINCE!
>
smart ones to figure that one out.
As for your friend's business...Again, post that sh*t somewhere else!
Jules.
jafri...@hotmail.com
Yep ! and that's why so many messed-up in the head but otherwise
beautiful black women and men around the world are destroying their
health using bleach and all kinds of poison to remove their melanin
protection and make their skin light like that of Dizòs, Notre Dame du
Perpétuel Secours, Ezili ?
>You are on your race-hater
> trip,
I am on a anti-racism mission. This bothers you because it threatens
the white priviledge you like to enjoy while pretending not to be aware
of its existence or influence in your life or environment. Some call
this the "white liberal's priviledge denial syndrome".
>and you know so little about Vodou and about how
> we practice.
Frankly, I don't care what you practice - it's your business ! If from
what I read on the net it sounds more like capitalism than Vodou to me,
that's my opinion to which i am equally entitled. So, no need to get
worked up, I am simply one potential client that you have lost.
>so you talk this political line that is totally
> irrelevant to the vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants.
I suppose your American highness knows best what is relevant to the
vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants, right ? Tchwip !
> > Get real Manbo Racine ! I am not one of those who take you seriously.
>
> Then f*ck you.
Ah, now the clergy lady takes over.
> Excuse my language
No excuse required. Afterall, it is YOUR language, not mine.
> I am frankly disgusted by
> people like you
Your problem, not mine.
> who come here practicing character
> assassination, trying to slam and slander for no
> reason whatsoever, acting our your arrogance and
> scorn and disdain
You are projecting dear clergy lady and it is obvious.
> and in the meantime, you care
> ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT LOULOU PRINCE,
I thought the whole purpose of this thread was for YOU to announce to
the world that YOU are taking care of him already? So, it's all good.
If you would simply decrease the bragging and increase the caring dear
clergy lady, the world would continue to turn just fine - around YOU,
of course!.
> You have time to do all this negative BS, you do nothing
> to help Loulou Prince
I confess and pound my chest three times begging you for forgiveness.
Please, save a wretched like me who does not even realize if Loulou
Prince is real or not - like the millions that Jim Jones and Jim and
Tammy Baker have done so very much for during their ministry.
> you claim not to "take seriously" what I am
> doing, or me personally.
I do not know you personally, so why would I have anything against
your person? What I don't take seriously is the narcissic trip
displayed in your writings. The arrogant misuse of the Kreyòl language
in particular and the consistent disrespect shown towards Haitian
culture in general (as have been displayed on this forum and others
several times over) is what I do not tolerate. For the lat time, there
is no such thing as a MA-M-BO in Haitian Kreyòl....The language, just
like your native english, has an alphabet and grammar rules that are to
be respected even by the high clergy. So, a reasonable person would go
learn the alphabe. Here is one of many places where those who are of
good faith do learn to write and spell Kreyol properly:
http://www.kreyol.org/aprannk.htm
>If you accord me, and Loulou
> Prince, so little respect,
Please leave the man alone - he is not the object of this
discussion....I doubt he ever was. Let's stop the pretense !
>then when I promote Loulou,
what would you do without this guy. If he didn't exist, wouldn't you
need to invent him?
>keep
> your nasty, racist, snotty comments to yourself!
drop that mirror Kathy !
> Either that, or CONTACT LOULOU PRINCE and do
> something to help him, put your damn flapping
> jawbone to some constructive purpose.
Hold on to Loulou, you need him. But please, for the last time, do drop
that mirror dear Kathy!
> SINCERELY!
Yeah, sincerely, that's a good english word properly spelled in english
by all who respect the language and its people. Laypeople and
clergypeople alike.
> Mambo Racine
Now, what is a MA-M-BO again?
Raci...@aol.com
jafri...@hotmail.com wrote, apropo of NOTHING
whatsoever relating to the title of this thread:
> I am on a anti-racism mission.
You see? THAT"S YOUR TRIP. That is what
you have come to talk about, your distorted ideas
about racism. You don't care about Loulou
Prince.
But let us be charitable and suppose that you
are one of those folks who doesn't like Catholic
imagery used in Vodou service.
Then why don't you rail against those Catholic
saint's images that depict black people? Those don't
bother you, they are okay, only the white ones
bother you, because you really don't like white
people very much.
> This bothers you because it threatens
> the white priviledge you like to enjoy
Oh, I'm dyin' laffin'! First of all, you seem to think
I am white. I am not, and am not considered to be,
where I work or in my social relationships or anywhere
else.
But supposed I were? Let me tell you something, my
life would be a lot easier tomorrow if every black person
had the same degree of social and economic privileges
as a wealthy white person! I wouldn't have to try to
raise money for my Haitian congregants, in fact not even
any of my white American house members would ever
need me to raise money for their medical emergencies
because my Haitian members would be so rich, they
could take care of it for me!
You assume a hell of a lot - you don't know every white
person, you don't know how each and every white person
things, and you don't even know who is white and
who is not!
> Frankly, I don't care what you practice - it's your business ! If from
> what I read on the net it sounds more like capitalism than Vodou to me,
> that's my opinion to which i am equally entitled.
And I am entitled to inform you that your opinion is
based on IGNORANCE. You seem to think that "real
Vodou" does not aim to make money. That is wrong.
All Houngans and Mambos work for money, want to
make money, like to make money, want to make
more money. Got it?
> >so you talk this political line that is totally
> > irrelevant to the vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants.
>
> I suppose your American highness knows best what is relevant to the
> vast majority of Haitian Vodouisants, right ? Tchwip !
Tchwip your own arrogant behind! I do not know what is
best for Haitians, they do. But I do speak for Vodouisants,
and I have the right and privilege to do so based on my
long years of service as a Mambo asogwe of the Vodou
religion! Telling me I don't know "what is relevant" is like
telling a Catholic bishop he doesn't know about Catholicism
and has no right to speak for or about Catholics!
> > I am frankly disgusted by
> > people like you
> Your problem, not mine.
>
> > who come here practicing character
> > assassination, trying to slam and slander for no
> > reason whatsoever, acting our your arrogance and
> > scorn and disdain
> You are projecting dear clergy lady and it is obvious.
No.
And this is something I want to say.
If you feel that your rudeness and your vulgarity and
your smear campaigns are "my problem, not yours",
then you have clearly decided to be the sort of person
who says anything at all to a woman he has never met!
You will smear and slam and lie, say nasty things to
me and about me as though I wasn't even a person,
and then the next thing is, you try to take the moral
high ground! It's astonishing, and you ought to be ashamed,
instead of telling me that this disgusting behavior of
yours is "my problem".
Just look at you! You are here, on a thread about a
Haitian traditional practitioner, castigating the Mambo
who posted the thread, lying, smearing... and at the
same time, doing NOT ONE THING TO HELP THE
HAITIAN TRADITIONAL PRACTITIONER! But the Mambo,
who is doing what she can, is the target for you to unload
your internal rage, spite, and malice.
You have issues, Janafrik, and your issues are YOUR
problem. Just like that other nutcase, Jules, hates
and defames Vodouisants! You don't like white people,
and white people in Vodou, or even images of white
people used by black people as THEY CHOOSE,
bother you. You don't like uppity women, assertive
women, so I bother you. You are insecure of your
knowledge of Vodou, you think because you are
Haitian you should know. That bothers you, it makes
you tense. And it riles you no end that this uppity, assertive
American woman, who you think is white worst of all,
is now teaching people about Vodou.
Well, too bad. Grow up!
> > You have time to do all this negative BS, you do nothing
> > to help Loulou Prince
> I confess and pound my chest three times begging you for forgiveness.
> Please, save a wretched like me who does not even realize if Loulou
> Prince is real or not
You don't know if he is REAL OR NOT???
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/index.html
Or call him on the phone! Why not? You speak
Creole, call the Jacmel TELECO office at:
011-509-288-3005
Leave a message for him, a date and time when you
will come back, give him a few days lead time so he will
be sure to receive the message. He will come talk
to you if he wants.
> For the last time
Promises, promises
> there
> is no such thing as a MA-M-BO in Haitian Kreyòl....The language, just
> like your native english, has an alphabet and grammar rules that are to
> be respected even by the high clergy.
Actually, the word "Mambo" is pronounced with
both M's, and thus is to be written that way according
to the rules of the currently most widely accepted
manner of writing Creole.
> >If you accord me, and Loulou
> > Prince, so little respect,
> Please leave the man alone - he is not the object of this
> discussion....I doubt he ever was. Let's stop the pretense !
It's just astonishing - look at the title of this thread, oh
lost and confused Janafrik. What does it say?
"Why I hate white Vodouisants"?
":How rude can I be to grown women, clergy in the Vodou religion?"
"By what means can I most display my ignorance of Vodou?"
Or does it possibly say, "Vodou Herbalist Working
in Jacmel, Haiti -offers instruction"? And who
is that Vodou herbalist, oh poor lost Janafrik?
Could it be... Loulou Prince?
And what do you think HE thinks of you, Janafrik, when
I read and translate to him the idiocy and horrible
negative things you say on a thread, on which I am making
every effort to *promote* *HIM*? Do you think he might
find you...
...selfish?
Rude?
Untruthful?
Inconsiderate?
Do you think he might wonder why you are sticking
your disrespectful nose in, since you aren't interested
in anything HE, not I, Janafrik, but HE, has to offer?
Suppose you were to meet Loulou Prince right this
minute and he said to you, "Why are you bothering
me?"
> >then when I promote Loulou,
> what would you do without this guy. If he didn't exist, wouldn't you
> need to invent him?
Maybe YOU would, to feed the fires of your
racist heartburn!
The fact is, I make webpages for all sorts of people,
if you look at my website right now, under Vodou and
Politics, you will find pages for the late Johnson
Aristide. Solen the Magician, Alix Myrville, Houngan
Ti-De, Mambo Andreli, and other Haitian traditional
practitioners have had, or currently have websites run
by me, for them. Some of them make money. Some
don't, or aren't trying to, for instance Johnson Aristide's
page does not offer his books for sale. But if
Mambo Andreli can attract a client each week, then
she and her children's life will change for the better.
Do you think that I would have "had to invent" her too?
Janafrik, before you slander me again, before you make
one more hateful comment, before you post another
rant, let me suggest that you at least start another
thread to do it. Then I can ignore you, and you can
ignore me, and I can go on with the business of
promoting Loulou Prince. Okay? Don't make any more
nasty, negative posts about ME on a thread about HIM.
Sincerely,
Mambo Racine
Raci...@aol.com
Jules wrote:
> Why is it so hard for you to understand that this discussion forum is an
> improper place for you to promote your Voodoo business, or those of your
> associates?
This forum is the most completely proper
place for me to post about the upgraded and
improved website of Loulou Prince! On that
website there is tons of FREE information
about the practice of herbal magic and healing
in Haiti, about Loulou personally, about the
Vodou religion. There are lots of beautiful
photos, there are vevers, there are links to
other beautiful and educational pages. All
for FREE.
You can't tell me you didn't look at Loulou
Prince's page, so now let's see you try to tell me that
those beautiful photos and those pretty vevers
and all that interesting, positive text doesn't
show Vodou, and Haiti, in a positive light!
Check again!
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/medsen_fey/index.html
Loulou Prince has been featured in magazine
articles including "Prediction" magazine and "Sacred
Hoop", a very popular spiritually-oriented magazine based
in England. He's led seminars and workshops.
He's worked with people of so many different
nationalities I can't remember them all - American,
British, Costa Rican, Puerto Rican, Dutch, Norwegian,
Nigerian, Canadian, many different nationalities.
So I really think that you need to be more respectful
of him.
> ...Vodou.
> >
> I call it what it is "demonic worship" you call it "Haiti's official
> religion"
I have not claimed that Vodou is Haiti's official
religion. I have said that it is the majority religion of
Haiti. Haiti does not have an official religion. Read
the Haitian Constitution, please.
> > LOULOU PRINCE is the topic of the
> > post which originated this thread.
> >
> Wrong! His business is the topic of this post.
Again, his website offers a great deal of information
for free. But suppose that I had the single, sole and
solitary objective of helping Loulou Prince, a traditional
Haitian herbalist, obtain clients and income through his
Haitin traditional occupation, in Haiti? There is
nothing whatsoever wrong with that.
People advertise all sorts of things here - Creole
cassette tapes, cheap air fare, anything and everything
that might be of interest to Haitians or to those
interested in Haiti. It is not your place to take the role
of censor and decide who you will allow to post, and
who you will harass and defame in an effort to exert
your control over other people, grown men and women
who are not your descendants or initiates. You are
completely out of bounds.
> > I do not feel that your idiocy, or the hatefullness of Janafrik,
> > are relevant to the topic, which, again, is...LOULOU PRINCE!
> >
> How ironic! A voodoo mamba calling anyone an idiot. I'll leave it to the
> smart ones to figure that one out.
V-o-d-o-u. M-a-m-b-o. D-i-s-p-l-a-y o-f i-g-n-o-r-a-n-c-e, Jules.
Deliberately incorrect spellings of the name of our religion,
or of the honorific accorded to female clergy, doesn't make
you look cute.
jafri...@hotmail.com
I can only wish that you take the time to meet some real Houngan or
Manbo and actually engage in respectful conversations with them about
the Vodou tradition. It won't be easy, I know. Unfortunately, there is
still so much animosity, so many negative prejudices, so much fear,
mysticism, and indeed ignorance of our history as a displaced African
people, that render these proposed conversations difficult and very
rare. But, we urgently need to have these conversations. Haitians of
all faith need to remember that above all, we are all brothers and
sisters, born of the same womb.
Fòk nou aprann pale youn ak lòt malgre diferans ki kapab egziste nan
jan nou konsevwa reyalite lavi a.
Vodou is certainly not immune to charlatans, anymore than are the
Catholic or the Protestant wings of Christianity. Just as it wouldn't
be fair to judge Christianity by the works of Jim Baker and his
infamous PTL club, it wouldn't be fair to define Vodou by the image
projected by some businessmen here or there who happen to claim status
as clergymen or clergywomen in Vodou.
I practice neither Vodou or Christianity but I do acknowledge that
there are from both traditions, positive as well as negative attributes
that I find useful to help me makes sense of the world, including
contemporary human history.
Mwen pa mize nan wout konpatriyòt. Se pase m t ap pase. Si ou vle ou
va kontinye twoke kòn ou ak madanm kapitalis k ap pran pòz Manbo l
sou entènèt la. Men, mwenmenm, mwen pa gen plis tan pou mwen gaspiye
ak li pou semenn sa a.
respè!
Jaf
Raci...@aol.com
Tout Mambo travay pou lajan.
Mambo pa pran "poz", Mambo pran ASSON, nan
Gran Bwa, nan men Papa Loko. Tout moun an
Ayiti konnen sa, koman fe ou menm, gran otorite
ke ou ye, ou pa konn sa?
Medizan! Malpalan!
Senseman,
Mambo Racine
Nomen Nescio
> I call it what it is "demonic worship"
Calling Voodoo "demonic worship" is an act of cultural hegemony on
behalf of the corrupt corporation headed by a Nazi in Rome, who only
benefits from Caribbean poverty; and of the corrupt oligarchy that is
rewarded by the United States for its careful mismanagement of it. Ditto
for most of the rest of the Caribbean.
This from an adherent of a religion that brought us the Inquisition, the
Nazis, the regular sodomy of altarboys, coverups and protection for
pedophile clergy against legal sanctions, and always extreme poverty to
any nation that obeys the dictates of its pedophile clergy. The Church
is an important part in the cycle of poverty: the ignorant support the
church; the church opposes contraception; lack of contraception creates
overpopulation; overpopulation causes poverty, which causes ignorance,
which feeds the church, round and round it goes.
I long for a pan-Caribbean society, where religion is marginalized to
cultural practices only, and free elections in a social democratic
society replace the theocratic oligarchic dictatorships that now keep
Caribbean society in poverty, from Brazil to Miami, at the behest of the
enforcers of the "Monroe Doctrine" who consider the entire region to be
their own satrapy.
It will not be the priests of Legba or Yemanyá who will be threatened by
such a progressive society.
Liberté, fraternité, égalité,
Jaime G.
Raci...@aol.com
Nomen Nescio wrote:
> I long for a pan-Caribbean society, where religion is marginalized to
> cultural practices only, and free elections in a social democratic
> society replace the theocratic oligarchic dictatorships that now keep
> Caribbean society in poverty, from Brazil to Miami, at the behest of the
> enforcers of the "Monroe Doctrine" who consider the entire region to be
> their own satrapy.
>
> It will not be the priests of Legba or Yemanyá who will be threatened by
> such a progressive society.
AYIBOBO, Jaime! I couldn't agree with you
more!
:-)
kafou...@yahoo.com
>
>Raci...@aol.com wrote:
>> Those images confuse no one.
<mega-snipping>:
I don't get it...... Both of you are usually decent people, what has
come over y'all? You now know why I avoid Religion.
K.
Jules
>
Jules,
>I can only wish that you take the time to meet some real Houngan or
>Manbo and actually engage in respectful conversations with them about
>the Vodou tradition. It won't be easy, I know. Unfortunately, there is
>still so much animosity, so many negative prejudices, so much fear,
>mysticism, and indeed ignorance of our history as a displaced African
>people, that render these proposed conversations difficult and very
>rare. But, we urgently need to have these conversations. Haitians of
>all faith need to remember that above all, we are all brothers and
>sisters, born of the same womb.
>
>Fňk nou aprann pale youn ak lňt malgre diferans ki kapab egziste nan
>jan nou konsevwa reyalite lavi a.
>
>Vodou is certainly not immune to charlatans, anymore than are the
>Catholic or the Protestant wings of Christianity. Just as it wouldn't
>be fair to judge Christianity by the works of Jim Baker and his
>infamous PTL club, it wouldn't be fair to define Vodou by the image
>projected by some businessmen here or there who happen to claim status
>as clergymen or clergywomen in Vodou.
>
>I practice neither Vodou or Christianity but I do acknowledge that
>there are from both traditions, positive as well as negative attributes
>that I find useful to help me makes sense of the world, including
>contemporary human history.
>
>Mwen pa mize nan wout konpatriyňt. Se pase m t ap pase. Si ou vle ou
>va kontinye twoke kňn ou ak madanm kapitalis k ap pran pňz Manbo l
>sou entčnčt la. Men, mwenmenm, mwen pa gen plis tan pou mwen gaspiye
>ak li pou semenn sa a.
>
>respč!
>
>Jaf
>
Great post Jaf! Certainly one which merits more than my usual knee-jerk, on
the fly responses due to its spiritual underpinnings.
I've been very busy in the past couple of days, therefore I have not been
able to formulate a response, but I promise, one is coming up.
Jules.
Jules
>
Jules,
>I can only wish that you take the time to meet some real Houngan or
>Manbo and actually engage in respectful conversations with them about
>the Vodou tradition. It won't be easy, I know. Unfortunately, there is
>still so much animosity, so many negative prejudices, so much fear,
>mysticism, and indeed ignorance of our history as a displaced African
>people, that render these proposed conversations difficult and very
>rare. But, we urgently need to have these conversations. Haitians of
>all faith need to remember that above all, we are all brothers and
>sisters, born of the same womb.
>
>Fňk nou aprann pale youn ak lňt malgre diferans ki kapab egziste nan
>jan nou konsevwa reyalite lavi a.
>
>Vodou is certainly not immune to charlatans, anymore than are the
>Catholic or the Protestant wings of Christianity. Just as it wouldn't
>be fair to judge Christianity by the works of Jim Baker and his
>infamous PTL club, it wouldn't be fair to define Vodou by the image
>projected by some businessmen here or there who happen to claim status
>as clergymen or clergywomen in Vodou
>
Alright Jaf, here we go! I wish that I could respond to you in a point by
point, humanistic way, that takes into account your some of your underlying
logic. I don't know if I can, but I'll try. I really don't need to sit and
talk to any Houngan in order to know about Voodoo. Like I said before, I
come from a family that was heavily involved in Voodoo activities. I left
Haiti when I was 18 years old, and because my aunt was a mambo, I not only
saw voodoo ceremonies with my own eyes, but I was there to listen to the
conversations, that occurred between the organizers and participants, even
after the ceremonies were over, and people talked about what happened, and
what this or that spirit said, or did, and so on.
You wrote about real Houngan, or Bocor, or Mambo, as opposed to charlatans.
First of all. there are two types of each of these. There is the one you go
to in order to get things done, whether you want to find out the
circumstances of someone's untimely death, or you want to guarantee a safe
travel to the US, or you want "justice" done in case you feel that you were
done wrong, you want to win the lottery, or for any other reason you can
think of. These are mediums, who work on a case by case basis, and do their
work by calling on the spirit, or spirits the serve, who possesses them
during the encounter, and interacts with the client individually, and most
of the time even the medium is not even aware of the encounter because it
occurred while he/she (the medium) was under possession.
And then there are those (I supposed that's where Racine fits (in case she's
not a fake) who simply summon the same spirits during Voodoo ceremonies that
are open to anyone who wants to attend. The reason for those more elaborate
ceremonies are the same. They are organized to summon spirits to come and
possess certain participants, who are known as choals, or horses because
they have previously experienced possession. And when the spirits come down,
they normally ask why they were called, and what services are asked of them,
and people make their demands according to the fetishes of these spirits.
They are also involved in other types of voodoo ceremonies involving groups,
are very aware of each loa's fetishes, as to their favorite food,
fragrances, alcoholic beverages etc...
Indeed I agree with you that some are real, and there are just as many fake
ones out there. Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very easy
to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge enormous sums of
money for their services, while the genuine ones will settle for whatever
you can offer The fake ones rob you of your money, the real ones rob you of
your soul. In a way the don't do it because they are not the ones who come
to you, but it is you who goes to them. And sometimes they even tell you in
advance of the serious dangers you are putting yourself into, but people's
greed, or curiosity usually causes them to discount those warnings to their
demise.
>I practice neither Vodou or Christianity but I do acknowledge that
>there are from both traditions, positive as well as negative attributes
>that I find useful to help me makes sense of the world, including
>contemporary human history.
>
I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice Christianity. There
is nothing that I do, or do not do. There is nothing I do better than anyone
else. I do not have a laundry list of do's and don'ts. I do not accuse, or
judge anyone. The only prerequisite to becoming a Christian, is to come to a
conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment, which
is eternal damnation. A Christian is not a good person, he is only a
forgiven one. He is forgiven because he has done all that is required in
order to be forgiven, which is putting one's faith and trust in the capable
hands of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone bore our sins and nailed them to
the cross on which he died for us. Please follow with me if you can in this
encounter between our Lord and Nicodemus:
John 3:1-21 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of
the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know
that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that
thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he
is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which
is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is
spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind
bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not
tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of
the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest
not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have
told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell
you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses
lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be
lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the
condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth
evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be
reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be
made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Basically, Nicodemus wanted to know who it is that he is dealing with,
because he felt that Jesus was not just an ordinary man, so he asked him:
who are you? And Jesus answered: "unless a man is born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God" A response which did not seem to directly answer his
question. So he probed "How is a man supposed to do that?" Jesus knowing
that Nicodemus was not just anybody, but a leader of the Pharisees, an
expert in the Law of Moses sent him to
Numbers 21:5-9: And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for
there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this
light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit
the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to
Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and
against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.
And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a
fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every
one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a
serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a
serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Jesus pointed him to this passage to show him that just as the people of
Israel were able to look up on the lifted bronze serpent, and be healed and
not die in the wilderness, the same way He will be lifted on a cross so that
those who believe in him will live and not go to hell. My point is that it
is a matter of life and death. God has not made any other way to reconcile
with him other than his son. It is a matter of great urgency that we all get
to know and put our trust in him before we die, or else we burn in Hell for
eternity. There is no personal earthly gain for us to spread the gospel of
our Lord, we do it out of love for our brothers and sisters who are lost and
headed to Hell, just like we used to be. It is imperative for us to do so,
because the Holy spirit who indwells us commands us to preach the good news
of salvation, and eternal life available to all who put their faaith in the
Lord Jesus Christ.
You speak of our Lord as if he was just a good man. A Palestinian of good
character who lived two thousand years ago, and who had said some very good
things, and gave some very good speeches. First of all Jesus was not a
Palestinian, he is a Jew. He is the only human being whose ancestry can be
traced back all the way to Adam. He was more than just a good man, he is God
almighty who lived on this earth as a man in order to undo the sins of our
grand parents, Adam and Eve. He is either who he said he was: God Almighty,
or he was the greatest lunatic who ever lived. You cannot say on one hand
that he was a great man, and at the same time say that is all he was. He
said that "I and the father are one, anyone who has seen me, has seen the
father". We do not worship spirits. There are no freelancing godly spirits
out there, doing their thing. There is only the Holy Spirit, and he lives in
the heart of the believer forever, from the moment of salvation. All other
spirits are demons.
Jules.
jafri...@hotmail.com
kind.
respè!
Jaf
jafri...@hotmail.com
"I really don't need to sit and
talk to any Houngan in order to know about Voodoo. Like I said before,
I
come from a family that was heavily involved in Voodoo activities. I
left
Haiti when I was 18 years old, and because my aunt was a mambo, I not
only
saw voodoo ceremonies with my own eyes, but I was there to listen to
the
conversations, that occurred between the organizers and participants,
even
after the ceremonies were over, and people talked about what happened,
and
what this or that spirit said, or did, and so on".
Excellent, I appreciate and respect the fact that you have have formed
your views on Vodou based on lived experiences.
fragrances, alcoholic beverages etc...".
No disagreement with what you've described above. The disctinction is
often made between the Houngan or Manbo who supposedly serve with their
right hand (summon the spirits in the search of good) and the Bòkò
who summons harmful spirits for the sake of revenge. But, I can not
really tell you whether this is a real disctinction that occurs in
practice or whether all these folks are interchangeable. Does the
Catholic priest who delves into the occult become someone lese or is it
all part of his role as a Catholic priest? It's a strange area where
perception and reality are not so easily distinguisheable.
You wrote:
"Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very
easy
to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge enormous
sums of
money for their services, while the genuine ones will settle for
whatever
you can offer The fake ones rob you of your money, the real ones rob
you of
your soul".
I understand where you are coming from but, I disagree with your
analysis because honestly, I believe that 99% of these ceremonials are
the expression of natural phenomenon that we (human beings) simply have
not yet been able to decode and demystify. I leave a 1% out there
because I do believe that humans are not the only intelligent beings in
the universe and there are instances where there seems to be real
interference in our mondane affairs. For instance, I find the
experience of the Dogon,
http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html or the illusions
practiced by David Blane and Cris Angel (
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6616406655978150142&pr=goog-sl
), quite compelling. In the first instance, we are dealing with the
fact that a small group of technologically-challenged people happened
to know about the existence of stars surrounding Sirius, apparently
without the use of a telescope. No logical explanation has been found
for this. In the second instance, we are dealing with master
illusionists who do things that seem to be impossible. But, as
described in the llink above, the fact that the explanation is unknown
to most. does not mean it doesnt exist.
Jules wrote: "I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice
Christianity. There
is nothing that I do, or do not do...The only prerequisite to becoming
a Christian, is to come to a
conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment,
which is eternal damnation".
I do not understand this philosophy Jules. You seem to suggest that
"guilt" is a centerpiece of Christianity. What is a newborn child
"guilty" about? What is the point of "eternal damnation" - for a
creature made by an all knowing all capable god ? How different is this
theology from all the other human-made - jealous, insecure, vengeful
gods of human history of of modern-day science fiction?
You wrote: "A Christian is not a good person, he is only a
forgiven one. He is forgiven because he has done all that is required
in
order to be forgiven, which is putting one's faith and trust in the
capable
hands of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone bore our sins and nailed them
to
the cross on which he died for us".
Jules, will you agree with me that the world did not always "know"
about Jesus-Christ. In fact, during the time the human being described
in the Bible as Jesus, son of Mary, everyone knew him not as
Jesus-Christ (or Messiah Jesus) but simply as Yeshua (Jesus).
Jesus-Christ is a religious identity that came into popular discourse
after the creation of the Christian theology and all its dogma, many
hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Terms like the Lord
Jesus-Christ would surprise even Jesud himself who never knew of it
during his lifetime.
"Please follow with me if you can in this encounter between our Lord
and Nicodemus":
I certainly will....
I read the whole thing, and of course this was not my first time at it.
But, before we draw too many conclusions, do you take literaly the
Moses and Serpents story? If so, why don't modern-day Christians and
Jews continue to invest in erecting brass serpents to protect their
nation rather than spending billions in armament and blowing human
beings to pieces in the violent wars that ravage our world?
Jules wrote:
"Jesus pointed him to this passage to show him that just as the people
of
Israel were able to look up on the lifted bronze serpent, and be healed
and
not die in the wilderness, the same way He will be lifted on a cross so
that
those who believe in him will live and not go to hell."
Yes, I understand this interpretation and yes it makes sense within
Christian theology. But, Jules, we must remember that these writings
did not always exist. An important to ask oneself is this: what came
first, the theology or the writings made to fit the theology?
Jules wrote: "My point is that it is a matter of life and death. God
has not made any other way to reconcile with him other than his son".
In human-made theologies, Jesus-Christ is not the first and certainly
not the ONLY "son of god". As argued by these sceptics "Christians
contend all of the following pre-Christian sun-gods are mythological:
Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, and
Horus. Yet, all: (1) allegedly had gods for fathers and virgins for
mothers; (2) had their births announced by stars and celestial music;
(3) were born on the 25th of December (Solstice); (4) had tyrants
trying to kill them when they were infants; (5) met with violent
deaths; and (6) rose from the dead". These coincidences require a
logical explanation Jules. And the first one that comes to mind, is
that over the course of developing the Christian theology, the authors
borrowed quite a bit from older belief systems. And there is nothing
surprising about that at all.
Jules wrote: "It is a matter of great urgency that we all get to know
and put our trust in him before we die, or else we burn in Hell for
eternity".
Now, here is a refreshing thought. What kind of heaven will that be for
those who are saved? To be spending eternity with a "god" who is so
insecure and bloodthirsty he shall have your loved ones (who are
supposedly also his creation) burn forever while you party up in
heaven. Only humans could have imagined such an outcome - not a loving
God.
Jules wrote: "There is no personal earthly gain for us to spread the
gospel of
our Lord, we do it out of love for our brothers and sisters who are
lost and
headed to Hell, just like we used to be".
I can understand this motivation. I used to also believe that everyone
who deoes not believe in the Jesus I was brought up learning about,
were going straight to hell and I remember praying to save the
Catholics, the Protestants who weren't Episcapalian like me and of
course for the Vodouisant who were all going straight to hell. But,
really Jules, this story is not very coherent. I also remember praying
at the soccer stadium so that Racing Club Haitien could win games that
I considered so very important to me at the time. Of course, the
opposite team also had people praying for a different outcome.
Jules wrote: " the Holy spirit who indwells us commands us to preach
the good news
of salvation, and eternal life available to all who put their faaith in
the
Lord Jesus Christ".
Honestly Jules, the composition of the human being that I am remains a
mystery to me. I am excited about learning more and more about what
actually constitutes my spirit (the non-physical component of my
being). I understand that not everyone accepts the current limitations
of human knowledge and they want a ready-made explanation for how we
came on this planet (as a species) and how the end of this world is set
to happen. To me, these are interesting areas of study and discovery. I
do believe in the existence of a Creator because that's the theory
which makes more sense to me, at this time. But, I as far as I
understand, the existence or non-existence of a Creator does not depend
on my acknowledgement or knowledge of this. So, I feel no pressure to
pretend one way or the other. Of course some human beings consider that
a "sin" and ample justification for me to be condemned to burn in the
eternal flame. But, apparently not all Christians believe in the
existence of hell.
See http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellSiteIntro.htm
Jules wrote: "You speak of our Lord as if he was just a good man. A
Palestinian of good
character who lived two thousand years ago, and who had said some very
good
things, and gave some very good speeches. First of all Jesus was not a
Palestinian, he is a Jew".
According to the best reading I have done so far, there more likelihood
that yes, he is a real person who was born and lived in the
geographical area known as Palestine (thus he was a Palestinian), and
who practiced Judaism, like his parents (thus he was a Jew).
Jules wrote: "He is the only human being whose ancestry can be
traced back all the way to Adam".
Adam is a mythological figure not a historical person Jules. Many human
populations have their mythologies by which they describe the arrival
of our species on this planet. Adam, is simply the one invented by the
people of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Just an aside about the
ancestries of Yeshua, as presented in the Christian Bible. This is one
of the many areas where the ible prooves to be the work of fallible
human beings - and NOT a divine revelation of an infallible God. There
are two contradictory genealogies provided for Yeshuah in the Bible. I
present this is some detail in my book "Viv Bondye Aba Relijyon!" where
I also deal with the problems posed by differing numbers of generations
in the two accounts. You can also check these links
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_genealogy.html
Jules wrote: "He was more than just a good man, he is God
almighty who lived on this earth as a man in order to undo the sins of
our
grand parents, Adam and Eve".
My grandparents were Jean Elissaint, Constanie, Anelise and Emmanuel.
I am able to trace back a few generations but obviously not too far.
The point i am making is that, as a collective, the human species does
not yet possess sufficient information to trace its genealogy
accurately. However, we know that any genealogy which portends that we
have only been on this earth for 6000 years is inaccurate. There are
human remains that are much older than that.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/19/tech/main656621.shtml
Jules wrote: "He is either who he said he was: God Almighty,
or he was the greatest lunatic who ever lived. You cannot say on one
hand
that he was a great man, and at the same time say that is all he was.
He
said that "I and the father are one, anyone who has seen me, has seen
the
father".
Jules to be honest, we do not KNOW that he said anything. We know that
a book written by men over several decades, claim that he has said a
number of things, including your quote above. We also KNOW that there
are several other books, written by equally fallible men who claim that
he said a number of other things that are not mentioned in the "Bible".
We also know, that it was April 8, 1546, at the Council of Trent, that
a set of men, using the threat of violence impose the 66 books of the
Bible. So, if we deal with what we know, it is not difficult to see why
it is safer to treat everyone with respect and love rather than passing
judgement about who will burn in the eternal flame and who will
partying all eternity to the tune of Mozart and Beethoven in a boring
as hell heaven. (sorry for the sarcasm !)
Jules wrote: "We do not worship spirits. There are no freelancing godly
spirits
out there, doing their thing".
Do you believe they exist and or "evil" or do you not beleive in their
existence, when you also write:
"There is only the Holy Spirit, and he lives in
the heart of the believer forever, from the moment of salvation".
.... All other
spirits are demons".
Well, okay, you beleive there are demons. But who created these demons?
Man, all I know is that things that go beyond this planet are
mysterious to me but, from the glimpse I get they appear very
fascinating. In fact, I am ignorant of so many fascinating things on
this planet, that I would not let any fear of so-called "demons" stop
me from learning as much as I can about this beatiful creation,
including the marvelous human beings that have exciting stories they
live and invent - including throught their religions.
Afterall, don't we all only spend a few decades on this planet and then
we disappear to go where NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK to tell how it is.
So, let's enjoy the ride brother and do as much "good" as we understand
it to be during the passage. Therefore I would still sit down with a
Priest, a Pastor, a Houngan, Manbo or a Rabbi anytime to try to
understand what they beleive. We can all learn something new, every
day. Se pase n ap pase !
Jaf
5thWind
weigh in with my opinion now. My view is that spirituality is a
fundamental human need. It takes a lot of different forms but they all
basically say the same thing. Has anyone ever read Joseph Campbell's
"Hero With a Thousand Faces"? That's the premise of the book and it
traces a lot of systems of belief from mythology to voodoo and shows how
they all tell the same stories; the names of the characters are changed.
--
www.haitiheroes.com
Discuss Haitian history.
> right hand (summon the spirits in the search of good) and the Bňkň
Jules
>
>No disagreement with what you've described above. The disctinction is
>often made between the Houngan or Manbo who supposedly serve with >their
>who summons harmful spirits for the sake of revenge. But, I can not
>really tell you whether this is a real disctinction that occurs in
>practice or whether all these folks are interchangeable. Does the
>Catholic priest who delves into the occult become someone lese or is it
>all part of his role as a Catholic priest? It's a strange area where
>perception and reality are not so easily distinguisheable.
>
various denominations, catholics, protestants, or occult. It is about
priority. The question is: which comes first: religion, (group) or or
Christ? If Christ is first, everything is perfect, if Christ is not, all is
lost)
Mark 9:38-41 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out
devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he
followeth not us. But Jesus said: forbid him not: for there is no man which
shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he
that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of
water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto
you, he shall not lose his reward.
John, who is often described as Jesus favorite disciple, also his very own
brother, told him that works were being done in his name by people who were
not counted among his closest disciples, so he forbade them from performing
miracles in Jesus's name, because they were not among Jesus closest
disciples. And Jesus answered and said that no good works can be done in his
name , except from people who love and believe in him. Basically, our Lord
was saying that anyone who has faith in him can do good works in his name.
Whether he is one of his closest disciples, or not. It is faith in our Lord
that produces good works, not the personal connection, or friendship with
him.
>
I wrote:
"Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
>harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very
>easy to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge >enormous
>sums of money for their services, while the genuine ones will >settle for
>whatever you can offer. The fake ones rob you of your money, >the real ones
>rob you of your soul.
>
You wrote:
>I understand where you are coming from but, I disagree with your
>analysis because honestly, I believe that 99% of these ceremonials are
>the expression of natural phenomenon that we (human beings) simply >have
>not yet been able to decode and demystify.
>
Jaf, you are speaking humanistically. You are speaking as if you and I have
a fundamental understanding about he world in which we live, apart from the
one we get from the Bible, which tells us that this world was created by God
for us, who is like us in kind, but infinitely superior. This is the only
understanding that makes sense, and it comes from the realization that there
is a God, and we're not it.
>
>http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html or the illusions
>practiced by David Blane and Cris Angel
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6616406655978150142&pr=goog-sl
>
> In the first instance, we are dealing with the
>fact that a small group of technologically-challenged people happened
>to know about the existence of stars surrounding Sirius, apparently
>without the use of a telescope. No logical explanation has been found
>for this.
>
And no logical explanation is required. I certainly don't need logical
explanation of anything in order find comfort in this world. All I need is
to understand that I am man, and that there is God. The Bible tells us:
Romans 1:20 " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Just this week I was reading in the news that we can only see with our best
20/20 vision, and the most powerful telescope yet to be invented, only 5
percent of the universe in which we live.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5272226.stm
I wrote: "I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice
Christianity. There is nothing that I do, or do not do...The only
prerequisite to becoming a Christian, is to come to a
conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment,
which is eternal damnation".
You replied:
>I do not understand this philosophy Jules. You seem to suggest that
>"guilt" is a centerpiece of Christianity.
>
The understanding that sin, or disobedience to God by our grandparents named
Adam, and Eve resulted in separation from God, or spiritual death, thereby
creating the need to reconcile with him and be born anew is the centerpiece
of Christianity.
>
You wrote:
>What is a newborn child "guilty" about?
>
You cannot separate the newborn child from Adam, or Eve. The newborn child
is as guilty as his parents. He is not guilty because of what he has done,
but because he was born in an imperfect sense. He was born spiritual dead,
from spirituallly dead parents. From the moment of conception this child is
already guilty of sin. That's why we read:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
You wrote:
>What is the point of "eternal damnation" - for a
>creature made by an all knowing all capable god ? How different is this
>theology from all the other human-made - jealous, insecure, vengeful
>gods of human history of of modern-day science fiction?
>
All you need to understand this is to realize that you are not God, and that
there is one who is infinitely superior to you. That he is who he says he
is.
Jules
"5thWind" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>
> Man, this thread really has legs. I've been reading it but I guess I'll
> weigh in with my opinion now.
>
better than God himself. That's why he created us as eternal beings, and
made a way for us to reacquire eternal life which we forfeited by disobeing
the only commandment he gave us which was punishable by death.
"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that
thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
Knowing that man would sin, he has chosen to pay the price of our sins in
his own body, even before he even created us. And all we are required to do
is to perform an act of faith, by putting our trust in his son Jesus who
paid the price of our sins, as a human being who was born in the same
condition our grandparent Adam did. His creation was physical. The creation
that involves the new Adam the converted Christian will be a spiritual one.
1 Corinthians 15:45, 49
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last
Adam was made a quickening spirit ...And as we have borne the image of the
earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"
As far as eternity is concerned, the only difference between God and us is
that we have a beginning (the day we were born) and no end. Physical death
is nothing other than the moment which decides where we spend the rest of
our eternity. So therefore, if you have something to contribute, now is
always the time to do it. A lifetime is only as long as any conscious
moment, and in that simple sense we can all say that we've had many
lifetimes since we became alive. Sooner or later, one of those moments will
be our last, and the final leg of eternity will begin, just as it's been for
everyone who has ever lived on this earth before us, except for the few who
are alive today, that's you and I.
>
> My view is that spirituality is a fundamental human need. It takes a lot
> of different >forms but they all basically say the same thing.
>
We read in Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our own image according to our
likeness. Let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the
sky and over the cattle and over ALL the earth, and over everything that
creeps or moves"
In Hebrew the word for God is Elohim. It is a plural form, and for that
reason we find the One who is identified as the Creator referring to "our"
image. God consisted of more than one Being, although only one of them was
performing the physical act of creation. The Bible reveals these Beings, it
shows them in a family relationship.
Of our glorious, resurrected Lord, we read in Revelation 4:11 Thou art
worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created
all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Not only did God create all things for his pleasure, he put a certain
healthy dose of fear of him in our hearts, and a genuine desire to submit to
his will in order to accept him and live, as opposed to rejecting him and
going to Hell.
Jules.
Nomen Nescio
> Time is the most valuable substance on this earth, and no one knows this
> better than God himself. That's why he created us as eternal beings, and
> made a way for us to reacquire eternal life which we forfeited by disobeing
> the only commandment he gave us which was punishable by death.
I can't imagine believing something that utterly ridiculous. But this
was taught to you by the church that supports every vile dictatorship in
the Americas and opposes every elected government that tries to separate
church from state, right? A Haitian should know better than anybody that
the priests are allied with Massa. I really prefer discussing religion
on a political basis only, since the supernatural basis is too
ridiculous to contemplate. But why are you peddling your religion in
alt.religion.orisha in the first place?
Incredulously,
Jaime G
Jules
Iit didn't address all your points.
<jafri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>No disagreement with what you've described above. The disctinction is
>often made between the Houngan or Manbo who supposedly serve withtheir
>right >hand (summon the spirits in the search of good) and the Bňkň
>who summons harmful spirits for the sake of revenge. But, I can not
>really tell you whether this is a real disctinction that occurs in
>practice or whether all these folks are interchangeable. Does the
>Catholic priest who delves into the occult become someone lese or is it
>all part of his role as a Catholic priest? It's a strange area where
>perception and reality are not so easily distinguisheable.
>
The truth is: they are all interchangeable, including certain priests of
various denominations, Catholics, protestants, or occult. It is about
priority. The question is: which comes first: religion, (group) or Christ?
If Christ is first, everything is perfect, if Christ is not, all is lost)
Mark 9:38-41 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out
devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he
followeth not us. But Jesus said: forbid him not: for there is no man which
shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he
that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of
water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto
you, he shall not lose his reward.
John, who is often described as Jesus favorite disciple, also his very own
brother, told him that works were being done in his name by people who were
not counted among his closest disciples, so he forbade them from performing
miracles in Jesus' name, because they were not among Jesus closest
disciples. And Jesus answered and said that no good works can be done in his
name , except from people who love and believe in him. Basically, our Lord
was saying that anyone who has faith in him can do good works in his name.
Whether he is one of his closest disciples, or not. It is faith in our Lord
that produces good works, not the personal connection, or friendship with
him.
>
I wrote:
"Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
>harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very
>easy to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge >enormous
>sums of >money for their services, while the genuine ones will >settle for
>whatever you can >offer. The fake ones rob you of your money, >the real
>ones rob you of your soul.
>
You wrote:
>I understand where you are coming from but, I disagree with your
>analysis because honestly, I believe that 99% of these ceremonials are
>the expression of natural phenomenon that we (human beings) simply >have
>not yet >been able to decode and demystify.
>
Jaf, you are speaking humanistic. You are speaking as if you and I have a
fundamental understanding about he world in which we live, apart from the
one we get from the Bible, which tells us that this world was created by God
for us, who is like us in kind, but infinitely superior. This is the only
understanding that makes sense, and it comes from the realization that there
is a God, and we're not it.
You wrote:
>>http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html or the illusions
>practiced by David Blane and Cris Angel
>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6616406655978150142&pr=goog-sl >
> >In the first instance, we are dealing with the
>fact that a small group of technologically-challenged people happened
>to know about the existence of stars surrounding Sirius, apparently
>without the use of a telescope. No logical explanation has been found
>for this.
And no logical explanation is required. I certainly don't need logical
explanation of anything in order find comfort in this world. All I need is
to understand that I am man, and that there is God. The Bible tells us:
Romans 1:20 " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Just this week I was reading in the news that we can only see with our best
20/20 vision, and the most powerful telescope yet to be invented, only 5
percent of the universe in which we live.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5272226.stm
I wrote: "I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice
Christianity. There is nothing that I do, or do not do...The only
prerequisite to becoming a Christian, is to come to a
conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment,
which is eternal damnation".
You replied:
>I do not understand this philosophy Jules. You seem to suggest that
>"guilt" is a centerpiece of Christianity.
>
The understanding that sin, or disobedience to God by our grandparents named
Adam, and Eve resulted in separation from God, or spiritual death, thereby
creating the need to reconcile with him and be born anew is the centerpiece
of Christianity.
>
You wrote:
>What is a newborn child "guilty" about?
>
You cannot separate the newborn child from Adam, or Eve. The newborn child
is as guilty as his parents. He is not guilty because of what he has done,
but because he was born in an imperfect sense. He was born spiritual dead,
from spiritually dead parents. From the moment of conception this child is
already guilty of sin. That's why we read:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
You wrote:
> What is the point of "eternal damnation" - for a
>creature made by an all knowing all capable god ? How different is this
>theology from all the other human-made - jealous, insecure, vengeful
>gods of human history of modern-day science fiction?
>
If you understand, and accept the fact that you are not God, then you will
also understand that you are NOT all-knowing, and since you're not, then
your "logical characterization" of him being jealous, insecure, vengeful is
NOT necessarily accurate. Then therefore there must be another explanation,
not yet understood by you. I have no doubt that you will one day receive the
answer to your question. The question is, whether it will happen in this
lifetime, or later.
You wrote:
>Jules, will you agree with me that the world did not always "know"
>about Jesus-Christ. In fact, during the time the human being described
>in the Bible as Jesus, son of Mary, everyone knew him not as
>Jesus-Christ (or Messiah Jesus) but simply as Yeshua (Jesus).
>Jesus-Christ is a religious identity that came into popular discourse
>after the creation of the Christian theology and all its dogma, many
>hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Terms like the Lord
>Jesus-Christ would surprise even Jesud himself who never knew of it
>during his lifetime.
Again you say "the world". Keep in mind that prior to our Lord's coming,
from God' vantage point, there were only two people who populated the world:
Jews, or non Jews. The Jews were so simply because God chose to have a
relation with them from the beginning, and he used that unique relationship
to bring about the coming our Lord, who is God himself, thereby extending
his relationship to the entire world, and from then on we are ONE people in
his eyes. Therefore, not only Jesus was not known to the world, but the
whole history of the Jewish people, was not either. That's why we read about
"the fullness of time" which means, God's timetable.
John 10:22-39 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the Hanukkah, and it was
winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the
Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to
doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told
you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear
witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said
unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I
give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater
than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my
Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus
answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which
of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good
work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a
man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law,
I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath
sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am
the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I
do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and
believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again
to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
You wrote:
I read the whole thing, and of course this was not my first time at it.
But, before we draw too many conclusions, do you take literaly the
Moses and Serpents story? If so, why don't modern-day Christians and
Jews continue to invest in erecting brass serpents to protect their
nation rather than spending billions in armament and blowing human
beings to pieces in the violent wars that ravage our world?
Where does it say that this sign which was given to Moses at one time, for
one purpose, which was to help build their faith, and to know that they (the
Israelis) were following the ONE true God, as opposed to the other gods
served by their neighbors? Where does it say that this act was to be
performed for anything else, and for any other reasons?
As far as modern day Christian and Jews blowing up the world, I'd say Get
Real! Not everyone who says they are Christians are, Not everyone who say
they're Jews are. As you have read in the above passage our Lord say "I know
, my sheep, and I am known by my sheep". He never said that my sheep know
each other. One thing he did say was this:
Matthew 7:16-27 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot
bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into
the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that
saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he
that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in
that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name
have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then
will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,
I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the
rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that
house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that
heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a
foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended,
and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it
fell: and great was the fall of it.
If you care to know which are the fruits of the spirit of God they are:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against
such there is no law.
You wrote:
>Yes, I understand this interpretation and yes it makes sense within
>Christian theology. But, Jules, we must remember that these writings
>did not always exist. An important to ask oneself is this: what came
>first, the theology or the writings made to fit the theology?
>
Do you understand that Moses wrote of Jesus Christ? Do you understand that
the first books known to have ever been written by man are the books of
Moses and the book of Job?
http://www.dianedew.com/wrtnword.htm
You wrote:
>In human-made theologies, Jesus-Christ is not the first and certainly
>not the ONLY "son of god". As argued by these sceptics "Christians
>contend all of the following pre-Christian sun-gods are mythological:
>Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, and
>Horus. Yet, all: (1) allegedly had gods for fathers and virgins for
>mothers; (2) had their births announced by stars and celestial music;
>(3) were born on the 25th of December (Solstice); (4) had tyrants
>trying to kill them when they were infants; (5) met with violent
>deaths; and (6) rose from the dead". These coincidences require a
>logical explanation Jules.
>
Not from me. You said yourself that they were "human made theologies" The
Bible is inspired, which literally means "God's breathed" I have nothing to
do with those fables, perhaps you do.
You wrote:
>Now, here is a refreshing thought. What kind of heaven will that be for
>those who are saved? To be spending eternity with a "god" who is so
>insecure and bloodthirsty he shall have your loved ones (who are
>supposedly also his creation) burn forever while you party up in
>heaven. Only humans could have imagined such an outcome - not a loving
>God.
Your characterization of God is what it is "your characterization". You will
have a chance to call him all those names to his face one day. It will be
your last and only chance, just before you are thrown into the lake of fire.
You wrote:
>Honestly Jules, the composition of the human being that I am remains a
>mystery to me. I am excited about learning more and more about what
>actually constitutes my spirit (the non-physical component of my
>being). I understand that not everyone accepts the current limitations
>of human knowledge and they want a ready-made explanation for how we
>came on this planet (as a species) and how the end of this world is set
>to happen. To me, these are interesting areas of study and discovery. I
>do believe in the existence of a Creator because that's the theory
>which makes more sense to me, at this time. But, I as far as I
>understand, the existence or non-existence of a Creator does not depend
>on my acknowledgement or knowledge of this. So, I feel no pressure to
>pretend one way or the other. Of course some human beings consider that
>a "sin" and ample justification for me to be condemned to burn in the
>eternal flame. But, apparently not all Christians believe in the
>existence of hell.
>
It's ok, it's even normal to question the facts of life, because even the
Bible tells us that the spirit searches:
1 Corinthians 2:10-11 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for
the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man
knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so
the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
See http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellSiteIntro.htm
Satan is not asleep. Just like you can go online and find food for your
soul, you will also find poison. The choice is yours.
Joshua 24:14-15 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and
in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side
of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto
you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the
gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or
the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my
house, we will serve the LORD.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a
roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
I wrote:
> "We do not worship spirits. There are no freelancing godly spirits
>out there, doing their thing".
You answered:
>Do you believe they exist and or "evil" or do you not beleive in their
>existence, when you also write:
>"There is only the Holy Spirit, and he lives in
>the heart of the believer forever, from the moment of salvation".
>
>.... All other
>spirits are demons".
I said freelancing godly spirits. By this I mean that the Holy Spirit is the
only Godly Spirit present affecting this earth, and he does his thing in the
heart of the believer. Even though there are myriads of Holy angels, they
are not freelancing on earth.
>
You wrote:
>Well, okay, you beleive there are demons. But who created these demons?
>
All things were created by God. Just as you were created as perfect physical
beings chose to rebel against God, and obeyeyed Satan, certain angels did
the same thing long before you did. The only difference is that those angels
were of a spiritual nature, as opposed to us who are of a physical nature.
God also for his own reason has not chosen to redeem those angels as he did
us, so they have no chance of repentance and will be cast in the lake of
fire with their leader Lucifer for eternity.
You wrote:
>Man, all I know is that things that go beyond this planet are
>mysterious to me but, from the glimpse I get they appear very
>fascinating. In fact, I am ignorant of so many fascinating things on
>this planet, that I would not let any fear of so-called "demons" stop
>me from learning as much as I can about this beatiful creation,
>including the marvelous human beings that have exciting stories they
>live and invent - including throught their religions.
>
>Afterall, don't we all only spend a few decades on this planet and then
>we disappear to go where NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK to tell how it is.
>So, let's enjoy the ride brother and do as much "good" as we understand
>it to be during the passage. Therefore I would still sit down with a
>Priest, a Pastor, a Houngan, Manbo or a Rabbi anytime to try to
>understand what they beleive. We can all learn something new, every
>day. Se pase n ap pase !
>
Psalms 19:1-14
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his
handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of
the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a
bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a
race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto
the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of
the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure,
making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the
heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear
of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true
and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than
much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them
is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can
understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy
servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me:
then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great
transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart,
be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
You wrote:
NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK
The answer is no. There is one, his name is Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith
the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jules.
Jules
20/20 vision, and the most powerful telescope yet to be invented, only 5
percent of the universe in which we live.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5272226.stm
>
universe is made up of 70% - dark energy, 25% - dark matter, 5% - ordinary
matter. This to me concludes that in our finite minds, with our most
precise instruments, the best we can make sense of using our physical senses
is only 5 percent of our universe. That's because ninety five percent of our
universe is outside of the physical human realm. Therefore the best we can
ever do is theorize about it. So much for science...
Jules.
kafou...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>
>"5thWind" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>> Man, this thread really has legs. I've been reading it but I guess I'll
>> weigh in with my opinion now.
>>
>Time is the most valuable substance on this earth, and no one knows this
>better than God himself. That's why he created us as eternal beings, and
>made a way for us to reacquire eternal life which we forfeited by disobeing
>the only commandment he gave us which was punishable by death.
>
>"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the
>knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that
>thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
Jules, you make God sound so childish and vengeful.... Let's frame
this in a new context:
You are a father, would you ever inflict on any of your kids a very
harsh punishment?
K.
Jules
>
>>>
>>Time is the most valuable substance on this earth, and no one knows this
>>better than God himself. That's why he created us as eternal beings, and
>>made a way for us to reacquire eternal life which we forfeited by
>>disobeing
>>the only commandment he gave us which was punishable by death.
>>
>>"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of
>>the
>>knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that
>>thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
>
> Jules, you make God sound so childish and vengeful.... Let's frame
> this in a new context:
> You are a father, would you ever inflict on any of your kids a very
> harsh punishment?
>
Jules.