Learning.
John Fitzsimons
I saw this in a sig file from someone's post in another newsgroup. I
thought that in view of our regular discussions here regarding
"learning" and "guides" etc. someone might like it :
Go to the people
Learn from them
Love them
Start with what they know
Build on what they have
But the best of all leaders
When their task is accomplished
When their work is done
The people will remark:
"We have done it Ourselves".
--2000-Year-Old Chinese Poem--
Izabela Melamed
news:q5jjgt49snuq352gp...@4ax.com...
Hi guides, guards and teachers,
For a long long time I'll be able to post very very rarely or maybe even
nothing at all due to unexpected personal problems. Just wanted to tell
thanks everybody for the incredible lessons, profound guidance and lion's
patience!
BTW, it's not a coincidence that I am posting under this poem. It came just
as an exact answer to a question I asked my guides. Oh, how much I love
"coincidences"! So, Shiva, who prefers to postpone the case of the faceless
skinhead, and John who didn't notice the details in my last posts to Shiva -
I will do it myself. I just needed approval. I asked my brother-guide and
the Universe - "Should I do it myself?" And here came the poem. He-he, John,
did you know what exactly you are posting?
I must mount the broom. Wish me good luck.
Ciao ragazzi!
Izabela
Izabela Melamed
> On 22 May 2001 23:16:11 GMT, shiv...@pcis.net (--Shiva--) wrote:
>
>
> > The reason I am non committal, is 99.999999 etc for a few more
> >pages% I am NOT to interfere with a person, or spirit. Its others
> >concern, and I will gladly pass them off to those that can assist
> >far easier than I can. Its not that I don't want to, its just I
> >cant spare the time to...have other far more pressing problems to
> >contend with.
> >writing letters and the like....as you saw.
It's okay Shiva. I was just very much afraid.
>
> Yep. Perhaps I could have added to this thread ;
>
>
> "It is better to light a match
>
> than
>
> curse the darkness ! "
>
>
> Sometimes when one says "Why isn't anyone helping ?" The "anyone"
> is meant to be themselves. :-)
Good. I am glad. I thought that your response would be kind of "You don't
know how to do this properly. This is not your business." etc. I am really
glad you think so.
Izabela
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:rniogt07scplkhlk3...@4ax.com...
>> On 22 May 2001 23:16:11 GMT, shiv...@pcis.net (--Shiva--) wrote:
>> > The reason I am non committal, is 99.999999 etc for a few more
>> >pages% I am NOT to interfere with a person, or spirit. Its others
>> >concern, and I will gladly pass them off to those that can assist
>> >far easier than I can. Its not that I don't want to, its just I
>> >cant spare the time to...have other far more pressing problems to
>> >contend with.
>> >writing letters and the like....as you saw.
>It's okay Shiva. I was just very much afraid.
There is no reason for fear. Large numbers of people who have had
horrific deaths become "earthbound". People are attended to when/if
there are people to help out and the person is allowed to be helped.
>> Yep. Perhaps I could have added to this thread ;
>> "It is better to light a match
>> than
>> curse the darkness ! "
>> Sometimes when one says "Why isn't anyone helping ?" The "anyone"
>> is meant to be themselves. :-)
>Good. I am glad. I thought that your response would be kind of "You don't
>know how to do this properly.
Well, it would certainly be better if you/anyone had had training in
doing spirit rescue work before doing it BUT if you think that there
is some sort of "urgency" then giving things a go should give you at
least some idea of how hard/easy it can be.
Besides, you have probably learnt something about spirit rescues in
past lives. :-)
>This is not your business." etc. I am really
>glad you think so.
>Izabela
Well, my point wasn't that it "wasn't your business". My point was
that she may not be ready to be helped to the light yet. Just because
*you* want her to move on it doesn't follow that she should.
Why not just ask her what she wants ? :-)
Regards, John.
--
****************************************************
,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
/ Oz \ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
\_,--.x/ http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/
v
Izabela Melamed
"--Shiva--" <shiv...@pcis.net> wrote in message
news:9euotq$7g6$9...@63.78.119.72...
>
> a 'stealth' spiritual guard.
> there but not seen.
>
I could see him very well. I have at least one guide who never hide himself
in my night journeys. He is with me almost every dream and I always think of
him as my brother. The strange about this guide is that I know his face very
well, but when I try to draw him the picture that I have in my head
dissolves and I cannot make even a line.
Izabela
Izabela Melamed
> On Mon, 28 May 2001 13:33:44 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Good. I am glad. I thought that your response would be kind of "You don't
> >know how to do this properly.
>
> Well, it would certainly be better if you/anyone had had training in
> doing spirit rescue work before doing it BUT if you think that there
> is some sort of "urgency" then giving things a go should give you at
> least some idea of how hard/easy it can be.
This time it looked easy despite of my excitement. Actually this wasn't so
much me that did the job. It was more like calling the emergency to come and
deal with it. Though I saw what happened. It was gorgeous.
>
> Besides, you have probably learnt something about spirit rescues in
> past lives. :-)
I think not only in past lives. Sometimes there are these strange "school"
dreams.
> >This is not your business." etc. I am really
> >glad you think so.
>
> Well, my point wasn't that it "wasn't your business". My point was
> that she may not be ready to be helped to the light yet. Just because
> *you* want her to move on it doesn't follow that she should.
I am not sure that all earthbound spirits helped by the forces of the light
are attended directly to the light. Seems to me that there are other places.
Something like repairing center or purgatory.
> Why not just ask her what she wants ? :-)
Gosh, this is so simple! Why I didn't think of this earlier. And I KNOW that
this is the first thing that I have to do. When I will learn already :-(
Izabela
Izabela Melamed
> On Wed, 30 May 2001 18:36:26 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >> Well, my point wasn't that it "wasn't your business". My point was
> >> that she may not be ready to be helped to the light yet. Just because
> >> *you* want her to move on it doesn't follow that she should.
> >
> >I am not sure that all earthbound spirits helped by the forces of the
light
> >are attended directly to the light. Seems to me that there are other
places.
> >Something like repairing center or purgatory.
>
> there...
> the person that ALL their life, believed they have one life ONLY,
> etc, and when they die, that's it, VERY set in their ways, they
> get there at times from the shock of finding out-wuups, were
> wrong is comfortable with them. people like that...
Years ago a very close friend of mine died of alcoholism at terrible
circumstances (he was found dead after 1 weak alone and eaten by his own
dog. He was a very famous jazz musician BTW). When I met him for the first
time at the other side he was wearing a T-shirt on which was written with
big numbers the date of his death and the date when he was found. He looked
sadly and confused at me pointing at the dates and asked me what they
mean. I realized that he doesn't know that he is dead. I'm so sorry, but I
just didn't have the strength to tell him the truth.
We talked a little about the place and he told that he doesn't understand
where he is. Then suddenly he became more alive and energetic and told me
that he is attempting a healing program to help him with the alcoholism and
his terribly possessive character. He looked proud but scared at the same
time. My friend asked me to come with him to that place for a courage. When
we came to the building I was amazed. This was a big catholic monastery
built of white stone. No one of us or our friends was religious. He rung on
the door and a nice but strict nun opened it. She began arguing with my
friend about this that he doesn't go regularly for the treatments as they
had agreed previously. A little cute pastor in a white cassock approached us
asking what is going on. He was some authority there and the nun began
complaining to him about the bad discipline of the patient. The pastor
became serious but slightly smiling with his eyes and told that in such case
they have to take extra preventive actions. They should purify him by
forcing him to drink 10 liters of holy water a day. My friend was terrified,
but I found it so funny that began laughing loudly. I lost control of the
dream and shot away to another scenery.
Unfortunately this didn't help my friend. He continue coming to me repeating
that he is already okay and doesn't drink anymore. It wasn't the alcohol
now, but his possessive habits. An year later I had to accompany him to
an other place far far away specially for people like him. This was so sad
for both of us. When we were sitting there telling good bye to each other he
show me the only thing that he took with him. This was the little glass from
which he used to drink his vodka. I pushed the glass and broke it on the
floor. I didn't see him since then.
Izabela
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
< snip >
>Years ago a very close friend of mine died of alcoholism at terrible
>circumstances (he was found dead after 1 weak alone and eaten by his own
>dog. He was a very famous jazz musician BTW). When I met him for the first
>time at the other side he was wearing a T-shirt on which was written with
>big numbers the date of his death and the date when he was found. He looked
>sadly and confused at me pointing at the dates and asked me what they
>mean. I realized that he doesn't know that he is dead. I'm so sorry, but I
>just didn't have the strength to tell him the truth.
A pity. That might have been a huge help to him. If you get a similar
situation then you could consider praying for help in saying what is
necessary.
>We talked a little about the place and he told that he doesn't understand
>where he is.
AAahhh ! An excellent time/place to suggest that he pray for
help/understanding.
>Then suddenly he became more alive and energetic and told me
>that he is attempting a healing program to help him with the alcoholism and
>his terribly possessive character. He looked proud but scared at the same
>time. My friend asked me to come with him to that place for a courage. When
>we came to the building I was amazed. This was a big catholic monastery
>built of white stone. No one of us or our friends was religious. He rung on
>the door and a nice but strict nun opened it. She began arguing with my
>friend about this that he doesn't go regularly for the treatments as they
>had agreed previously. A little cute pastor in a white cassock approached us
>asking what is going on. He was some authority there and the nun began
>complaining to him about the bad discipline of the patient. The pastor
>became serious but slightly smiling with his eyes and told that in such case
>they have to take extra preventive actions. They should purify him by
>forcing him to drink 10 liters of holy water a day. My friend was terrified,
>but I found it so funny that began laughing loudly. I lost control of the
>dream and shot away to another scenery.
The "absurdity factor" eh ? I use similar things to "wake people up".
In that situation I would probably have levitated a few feet off the
ground. Doing absurd/paranormal things with earthbound discarnates
can help then to realise that something has very much changed from
"normal".
If I don't have the time/inclination for such games then I just
suggest that they look at the movie (or T.V. ?) screen that I arrange
for them. They can then see (objectively) their physical death.
>Unfortunately this didn't help my friend. He continue coming to me repeating
>that he is already okay and doesn't drink anymore. It wasn't the alcohol
>now, but his possessive habits. An year later I had to accompany him to
>an other place far far away specially for people like him. This was so sad
>for both of us. When we were sitting there telling good bye to each other he
>show me the only thing that he took with him. This was the little glass from
>which he used to drink his vodka. I pushed the glass and broke it on the
>floor. I didn't see him since then.
>Izabela
Clever. Destroying his remaining "attachment" to the physical world.
Well done. :-)
Izabela Melamed
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:04 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >mean. I realized that he doesn't know that he is dead. I'm so sorry, but
I
> >just didn't have the strength to tell him the truth.
>
> A pity. That might have been a huge help to him. If you get a similar
> situation then you could consider praying for help in saying what is
> necessary.
Most times there isn't much time for prayers. This is why when I remember to
pray I like to add that general words: "...and the right idea to come at the
right moment."
> >We talked a little about the place and he told that he doesn't understand
> >where he is.
>
> AAahhh ! An excellent time/place to suggest that he pray for
> help/understanding.
If I had suggested to that particular person to pray he would think that he
is again having one of his alcoholic deliriums. For most of the people I
know incl. myself praying is not part of the life. It takes very long time -
years to understand its purpose and how to do it. Suggesting to an atheist
to pray at such a sensitive moment wouldn't influence him much. Just a talk
in his "style" with words and terms close to his mind would help better IMO.
> >forcing him to drink 10 liters of holy water a day. My friend was
terrified,
> >but I found it so funny that began laughing loudly. I lost control of the
> >dream and shot away to another scenery.
>
> The "absurdity factor" eh ? I use similar things to "wake people up".
> In that situation I would probably have levitated a few feet off the
> ground. Doing absurd/paranormal things with earthbound discarnates
> can help then to realise that something has very much changed from
> "normal".
People who are addicted to drugs or alcohol have visions yet while they are
alive. They become confused and suspicious about anything out of the normal
and think that this is because of the alcohol or the drug they take
regularly.
> If I don't have the time/inclination for such games then I just
> suggest that they look at the movie (or T.V. ?) screen that I arrange
> for them. They can then see (objectively) their physical death.
I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to anybody. I
know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
Izabela
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:9hejhtsceqdsik5l9...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:04 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>> >mean. I realized that he doesn't know that he is dead. I'm so sorry, but
>> >I just didn't have the strength to tell him the truth.
>> A pity. That might have been a huge help to him. If you get a similar
>> situation then you could consider praying for help in saying what is
>> necessary.
>Most times there isn't much time for prayers. This is why when I remember to
>pray I like to add that general words: "...and the right idea to come at the
>right moment."
That is why you say that sort of prayer BEFORE you go anywhere. So
that you are less likely to be "caught out" unprepared.
>> >We talked a little about the place and he told that he doesn't understand
>> >where he is.
>> AAahhh ! An excellent time/place to suggest that he pray for
>> help/understanding.
>If I had suggested to that particular person to pray he would think that he
>is again having one of his alcoholic deliriums. For most of the people I
>know incl. myself praying is not part of the life. It takes very long time -
>years to understand its purpose and how to do it. Suggesting to an atheist
>to pray at such a sensitive moment wouldn't influence him much. Just a talk
>in his "style" with words and terms close to his mind would help better IMO.
Then why didn't you succeed ? People in such a situation generally
need to be "woken up". By suggesting that someone in this sort of
situation "pray" one "sows a seed". Even if they reject such an idea
immediately/out of hand they will still think about what you have
said.....later. Then they will be very much closer to "moving on".
>> >forcing him to drink 10 liters of holy water a day. My friend was
>terrified,
>> >but I found it so funny that began laughing loudly. I lost control of the
>> >dream and shot away to another scenery.
>> The "absurdity factor" eh ? I use similar things to "wake people up".
>> In that situation I would probably have levitated a few feet off the
>> ground. Doing absurd/paranormal things with earthbound discarnates
>> can help then to realise that something has very much changed from
>> "normal".
>People who are addicted to drugs or alcohol have visions yet while they are
>alive. They become confused and suspicious about anything out of the normal
>and think that this is because of the alcohol or the drug they take
>regularly.
True, all the more reason to "shock" them out of their
dream/nightmare.
>> If I don't have the time/inclination for such games then I just
>> suggest that they look at the movie (or T.V. ?) screen that I arrange
>> for them. They can then see (objectively) their physical death.
>I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to anybody. I
>know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
>Izabela
It depends on how much we want to help the person. Seeing one's own
death "objectively" can be much the same as seeing someone being
killed in a Hollywood movie. It doesn't necessarily bother the viewer
a lot. The "point" is to make the person realise that their physical
life is over. Any "subjective" recall is generally unnecessary unless
the person is strongly into "denial".
Izabela Melamed
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:45:38 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >> A pity. That might have been a huge help to him. If you get a similar
> >> situation then you could consider praying for help in saying what is
> >> necessary.
>
> >Most times there isn't much time for prayers. This is why when I remember
to
> >pray I like to add that general words: "...and the right idea to come at
the
> >right moment."
>
> That is why you say that sort of prayer BEFORE you go anywhere. So
> that you are less likely to be "caught out" unprepared.
Unfortunately not only me but many people remember to pray only in sad
moments when it is too late. Usually a skeptic would begin a prayer with
"G-d, IF you exist... " - a sin of doubt from the first words of the prayer.
The skepticism is so deeply planted into the mind that is also so powerful
as the belief of a truly religious person.
<deleted a long confession of a skeptic who doesn't believe in prayers>
Now back to praying - I don't know how a believer prays, but because of the
reasons above, the prayer of a skeptic goes as a never ending painful
argument with oneself. Something like this: "God, IF you exist... does god
exist? There is no prove. But... anyway, it wouldn't hurt to pray. Pray? ...
to whom? Why wasting my time when I can get up and DO something? But what
IF..., nooooo, that's stupid ... anyway, what IF... ok, again from the
beginning : God if you exist, please... Oh gosh, why I am doing this ... "
etc. What would you suggest to a skeptic in such situation ? Pray for
guidance to learn how to pray? :-)
And in less words - I don't know why somebody should pray at all. My brain
just cannot assimilate this.
>
> >If I had suggested to that particular person to pray he would think that
he
> >is again having one of his alcoholic deliriums.
> Then why didn't you succeed ? People in such a situation generally
> need to be "woken up". By suggesting that someone in this sort of
> situation "pray" one "sows a seed". Even if they reject such an idea
> immediately/out of hand they will still think about what you have
> said.....later. Then they will be very much closer to "moving on".
Who, me? Me to suggest to a skeptic to pray? And you think
this would work? Do you know how long time it took me to convince myself
that probably praying doesn't hurt? Back in the time - I think about two
years ago I visited your web site for first time and read the first short
enough prayer in my life ever. It took me at least one additional year to
read it to the end. Now I am making a great success - I pray almost twice a
week and lately I even prayed three times in a row, though I still cannot
get to the last part of the prayer. And I am of the good kind. Tell me now,
how can one uproot that inner skeptic sitting in the left side of the brain
suffocating the seed that you sow?
And please, don't tell me to pray for guidance.
Try something else this time :-)
>
> >I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to anybody. I
> >know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
> It depends on how much we want to help the person. Seeing one's own
> death "objectively" can be much the same as seeing someone being
> killed in a Hollywood movie. It doesn't necessarily bother the viewer
> a lot.
Are you sure?
The "point" is to make the person realise that their physical
> life is over. Any "subjective" recall is generally unnecessary unless
> the person is strongly into "denial".
I was thinking lately... They tell that when we die our relatives and love
ones come to meet us on the way. But now I think, maybe these are not
exactly the same people. Maybe they are spirits that only take the form of
people who we know.
Izabela Melamed
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:51 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >And please, don't tell me to pray for guidance.
> >Try something else this time :-)
>
> any clouds? are they pretty? HEY GOD, NICE CLOUDS TODAY!!!
> or if you get rained on, HEY GOD, enjoyed the free shower-it was
> fun...>
Don't we pray to want something? I associate praying with bagging whether
for knowledge or well-being. But shouldn't one try to do something before to
pray? God or guides are not there to spoil us. When one works really very
hard on a certain problem she manifests clearly what she wants and where
needs a help or information. Why we have to declare this with words again
and again all the time even when we can manage alone. Just to keep them busy
listening ? What is stronger - the words or the deeds? Aren't the words only
a human thing? If guides and God are so powerful they would know what are
the deepest most cherished wishes of the soul.
> >I was thinking lately... They tell that when we die our relatives and
love
> >ones come to meet us on the way. But now I think, maybe these are not
> >exactly the same people. Maybe they are spirits that only take the form
of
> >people who we know.
>
> THAT DEPENDS... if the person is going to 4d, where all spirits
> on the path of growth return after death (the same place they are
> at before inhabiting a human body, BTW) and their relatives are
> also there, waiting for time and opportunity, then they get a
> family reunion.
> if they were for instance an ascended master, from some upper
> level, he will just return there. no family reunion as such, just
> maybe old friends asking how it was.
What's happening to the earthbound spirits after the death? Is there
somebody meeting them immediately after they leave the body?
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:10i6itk1ip1u2lkkf...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:45:38 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>God if you exist, please... Oh gosh, why I am doing this ... "
>etc. What would you suggest to a skeptic in such situation ? Pray for
>guidance to learn how to pray? :-)
Certainly.
>And in less words - I don't know why somebody should pray at all. My brain
>just cannot assimilate this.
When you are on your way to a place that you haven't been to before
don't you ever ask anyone for "directions" ? Why ? Isn't it because it
makes the journey easier ? The same applies to prayer.
< snip >
>> Then why didn't you succeed ? People in such a situation generally
>> need to be "woken up". By suggesting that someone in this sort of
>> situation "pray" one "sows a seed". Even if they reject such an idea
>> immediately/out of hand they will still think about what you have
>> said.....later. Then they will be very much closer to "moving on".
>Who, me? Me to suggest to a skeptic to pray? And you think
>this would work?
In many cases "yes". A drowning man/woman will "clutch at straws".
Once the "analytical skeptic" works out that everything he/she has
tried "doesn't work" he/she is then ready to give prayer a go. By
suggesting this you are giving the person another "tool" that they can
try out in order to get them free of the situation they find
themselves in.
>Do you know how long time it took me to convince myself
>that probably praying doesn't hurt?
How could praying to God "hurt" anyone ?
>Back in the time - I think about two
>years ago I visited your web site for first time and read the first short
>enough prayer in my life ever. It took me at least one additional year to
>read it to the end. Now I am making a great success - I pray almost twice a
>week and lately I even prayed three times in a row, though I still cannot
>get to the last part of the prayer. And I am of the good kind. Tell me now,
>how can one uproot that inner skeptic sitting in the left side of the brain
>suffocating the seed that you sow?
What's to be "skeptical" about ? Either prayer helps or it doesn't. I
find it does. So there is no need for skepticism.
>And please, don't tell me to pray for guidance.
>Try something else this time :-)
Okay, pray for help in understanding why you are so skeptical of
prayer. :-)
>> >I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to anybody. I
>> >know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
>> It depends on how much we want to help the person. Seeing one's own
>> death "objectively" can be much the same as seeing someone being
>> killed in a Hollywood movie. It doesn't necessarily bother the viewer
>> a lot.
>Are you sure?
Certainly. A few decades of spirit rescue work tends to give one a bit
of an understanding of "how things work".
>> The "point" is to make the person realise that their physical
>> life is over. Any "subjective" recall is generally unnecessary unless
>> the person is strongly into "denial".
>I was thinking lately... They tell that when we die our relatives and love
>ones come to meet us on the way. But now I think, maybe these are not
>exactly the same people. Maybe they are spirits that only take the form of
>people who we know.
Yes, that can happen. There are a number of possibilities.
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"--Shiva--" <shiv...@pcis.net> wrote in message
>news:9g0mqd$2tn$3...@63.78.119.215...
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:51 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
< snip >
>Don't we pray to want something? I associate praying with bagging whether
>for knowledge or well-being.
That can be the focus of some people. We can however pray to benefit
other people as well. For example, we might pray to find a way to
"most help" that "needy" person we see at the train station each
night.
>But shouldn't one try to do something before to pray?
Certainly.
>God or guides are not there to spoil us.
True, if we haven't put in any/enough effort to deal with our
problem(s) then we will get little/no help.
>When one works really very
>hard on a certain problem she manifests clearly what she wants and where
>needs a help or information. Why we have to declare this with words again
>and again all the time even when we can manage alone.
Most things can be done better with "spirit" help. Sometimes it is a
case of doing things "well", or "very well". Your choice.
>Just to keep them busy
>listening ? What is stronger - the words or the deeds? Aren't the words only
>a human thing? If guides and God are so powerful they would know what are
>the deepest most cherished wishes of the soul.
Praying/asking for help helps to reverse the karma of arrogance/pride.
< snip >
>What's happening to the earthbound spirits after the death? Is there
>somebody meeting them immediately after they leave the body?
Certainly, but they can choose to ignore them. Such people often think
that they must be dreaming. Particularly if they are a skeptic and
don't expect there to be life after their physical death. Also, in
little time they manage to make such helpers invisible.
Izabela Melamed
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:51 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >how can one uproot that inner skeptic sitting in the left side of the
brain
> >suffocating the seed that you sow?
>
> What's to be "skeptical" about ? Either prayer helps or it doesn't. I
> find it does. So there is no need for skepticism.
I don't know. Maybe your prayers make more sense than mine and your guides
have more respect to your wishes. My prayers don't work very well.
>
> >And please, don't tell me to pray for guidance.
> >Try something else this time :-)
>
> Okay, pray for help in understanding why you are so skeptical of
> prayer. :-)
This is easy to know - as above - because I remember only 2 or 3 times when
they really worked.
>
> >> >I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to
anybody. I
> >> >know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
>
> >> It depends on how much we want to help the person. Seeing one's own
> >> death "objectively" can be much the same as seeing someone being
> >> killed in a Hollywood movie. It doesn't necessarily bother the viewer
> >> a lot.
>
> >Are you sure?
>
> Certainly. A few decades of spirit rescue work tends to give one a bit
> of an understanding of "how things work".
Isn't the shock of knowing that one is death too hard? Maybe it works like
getting out of amnesia. One just remembers this that he always have known.
>
> >> The "point" is to make the person realise that their physical
> >> life is over. Any "subjective" recall is generally unnecessary unless
> >> the person is strongly into "denial".
Here it's happening again - seems my English knowing brain cells are dieing.
What you mean by "subjective" recall ?
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:quehit0p2mgbonosf...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:51 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>> What's to be "skeptical" about ? Either prayer helps or it doesn't. I
>> find it does. So there is no need for skepticism.
>I don't know. Maybe your prayers make more sense than mine and your guides
>have more respect to your wishes. My prayers don't work very well.
Then perhaps you need a better understanding of prayer ? How prayers
are answered depends on a number of factors. What their "focus" is for
example, and your karma.
A "selfless" prayer will always get a better/faster answer than a
"selfish" one. Most people choose the latter so it is no wonder they
seem to have problems.
If one doesn't have sufficient karma then obviously one will not get
what they ask for. One can then either accept that or change one's
karma.
>> >And please, don't tell me to pray for guidance.
>> >Try something else this time :-)
>> Okay, pray for help in understanding why you are so skeptical of
>> prayer. :-)
>This is easy to know - as above - because I remember only 2 or 3 times when
>they really worked.
Don't blame others for your own shortcomings. If your requests are
selfless and you have sufficient karma then you will get the help you
want.
>> >> >I wouldn't be able to show a movie of such a horrible death to
>anybody. I know, this is wrong, but I am only a weak human being :-(
>> >> It depends on how much we want to help the person. Seeing one's own
>> >> death "objectively" can be much the same as seeing someone being
>> >> killed in a Hollywood movie. It doesn't necessarily bother the viewer
>> >> a lot.
>> >Are you sure?
>> Certainly. A few decades of spirit rescue work tends to give one a bit
>> of an understanding of "how things work".
>Isn't the shock of knowing that one is death too hard?
What's "too hard" mean ? One can be disapointed/surprised to see
that they have physically died but that isn't necessarily any great
problem. It isn't like they can do anything about it is it ? They
cannot legitimately become un-dead again. :-)
Many people are very relieved to know that their physical problems are
over at last, and that they will be with deceased loved ones again.
>Maybe it works like
>getting out of amnesia. One just remembers this that he always have known.
Certainly, on some level everyone "notices" that they are dead.
Sometimes however people think that if they pretend that "it didn't
happen" then "everything will be okay".
>> >> The "point" is to make the person realise that their physical
>> >> life is over. Any "subjective" recall is generally unnecessary unless
>> >> the person is strongly into "denial".
>Here it's happening again - seems my English knowing brain cells are dieing.
>What you mean by "subjective" recall ?
If you see someone else upset and don't get upset yourself then you
are being "objective". The experience is outside of yourself. If
however *you* get upset then you (the subject) are having a
"subjective experience".
A "subjective" lifeguard down at a beach sees someone drowning. He
jumps in and drowns as well.
An "objective" lifeguard down at a beach sees someone drowning. He
brings them back to shore, alive. :-)
"Objective" generally means happening to others.
"Subjective" generally means happening to oneself.
Most good therapists learn to be able to be "objective". Getting as
upset as one's patient isn't usually a great deal of help. :-)
Izabela Melamed
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:03:40 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Isn't the shock of knowing that one is death too hard?
>
> What's "too hard" mean ? One can be disapointed/surprised to see
> that they have physically died but that isn't necessarily any great
> problem. It isn't like they can do anything about it is it ? They
> cannot legitimately become un-dead again. :-)
When one dies it wouldn't be so hard for himself. It would be shocking to
know that one have left a few people there alone and in greed. He may suffer
the pain of the others.
There is something not very logical when religious people cry for their
deads. All religions speak about life after dead and that we all will go
there, right ? So why so much tragedy about being separated temporary ?
Seems like the religious people deeply inside don't really believe in
eternal life. I have to admit that with these oobe-s I became shamefully
indifferent to death. When somebody here dies I think to myself: "Well, a
little patience and we will see each other soon." I begin to feel
uncomfortable at burials even of young people. These ceremonies look so
senseless and such a waste of emotions. Maybe I am wrong. What the
spiritualists do when somebody dies? Do they cry, do they go to the cemetery
at all, do they plant gardens on the graves? I know that they would pray and
send light, but these are rather rituals of life. Do they feel sad when
somebody dies and if they do what should be the reason for this?
>
> Many people are very relieved to know that their physical problems are
> over at last, and that they will be with deceased loved ones again.
Exactly! They are still alive, they are only a little... invisible. There is
even some fun in this. After I die I would like to spend at least one - two
weeks poltergeisting around.
>
> Certainly, on some level everyone "notices" that they are dead.
> Sometimes however people think that if they pretend that "it didn't
> happen" then "everything will be okay".
There is a catch here. When one notices that he is dead then at the same
time he should notice that he is still able to notice things. Being able to
notice would mean that he is NOT dead. So the conclusion that he is still
alive will be true and would be no need to pretend they are alive. They
really would be alive.
A "subjective" lifeguard down at a beach sees someone drowning. He
> jumps in and drowns as well.
>
> An "objective" lifeguard down at a beach sees someone drowning. He
> brings them back to shore, alive. :-)
>
> "Objective" generally means happening to others.
>
> "Subjective" generally means happening to oneself.
>
> Most good therapists learn to be able to be "objective". Getting as
> upset as one's patient isn't usually a great deal of help. :-)
Ahaaaa, now I understand why you tell that a good healer doesn't need to be
a philanthropist :-)
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:ih78jt4fd0i16akma...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:03:40 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>> >Isn't the shock of knowing that one is death too hard?
>> What's "too hard" mean ? One can be disapointed/surprised to see
>> that they have physically died but that isn't necessarily any great
>> problem. It isn't like they can do anything about it is it ? They
>> cannot legitimately become un-dead again. :-)
>When one dies it wouldn't be so hard for himself. It would be shocking to
>know that one have left a few people there alone and in greed.
In grief ? The amount of grief depends on what those who are left
behind know/don't know about life after death. IF one knows that
people are still "alive" after their physical death then the amount of
grief is somewhat reduced. That is one of the main reasons why
Spiritualist churches exist. To help people to understand that
(physical) death is not the end.
>He may suffer the pain of the others.
He may. A better idea would be to simply move onto the spirit world.
>There is something not very logical when religious people cry for their
>deads. All religions speak about life after dead and that we all will go
>there, right ? So why so much tragedy about being separated temporary ?
Because *saying* that there is life after death and *believing* that
there is life after death are two different things.
>Seems like the religious people deeply inside don't really believe in
>eternal life.
It isn't so much a case of "don't believe", as "don't know", IMO.
>I have to admit that with these oobe-s I became shamefully
>indifferent to death.
Now you know why most people don't consciously remember OOBs. :-)
>When somebody here dies I think to myself: "Well, a
>little patience and we will see each other soon." I begin to feel
>uncomfortable at burials even of young people. These ceremonies look so
>senseless and such a waste of emotions.
In many ways you are correct, but when you see children acting like
children then does that bother you ? The same goes for spiritual
children. If people don't want to be bothered learning about life
after death etc. then that is their choice. They cannot afterwards
complain about the repercussions of such an attitude. Neither
should you.
The point of this newsgroup, and Spiritualist churches/groups, is to
act as a school (so to speak) for those who wish to learn more about
the "school of life". Everyone has the option of "attending", or not
attending, as they see fit.
>Maybe I am wrong. What the
>spiritualists do when somebody dies? Do they cry, do they go to the cemetery
>at all, do they plant gardens on the graves? I know that they would pray and
>send light, but these are rather rituals of life. Do they feel sad when
>somebody dies and if they do what should be the reason for this?
IMO it depends to some degree on the age of those left behind. If you
are very close to someone and they went "on holidays" for the next
forty years then would that bother you ? Even if one knows one will
"meet again" one may still miss that person's physical presence.
>> Many people are very relieved to know that their physical problems are
>> over at last, and that they will be with deceased loved ones again.
>Exactly! They are still alive, they are only a little... invisible. There is
>even some fun in this. After I die I would like to spend at least one - two
>weeks poltergeisting around.
You wouldn't want to catch up with your old friends/relatives who had
died before you as soon as possible ?
>> Certainly, on some level everyone "notices" that they are dead.
>> Sometimes however people think that if they pretend that "it didn't
>> happen" then "everything will be okay".
>There is a catch here. When one notices that he is dead then at the same
>time he should notice that he is still able to notice things. Being able to
>notice would mean that he is NOT dead. So the conclusion that he is still
>alive will be true and would be no need to pretend they are alive. They
>really would be alive.
For most people being "alive" means being "physically alive". If they
aren't "physical" then *they* consider themselves dead.
< snip >
Izabela Melamed
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:15:05 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:ih78jt4fd0i16akma...@4ax.com...
>
> >> On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:03:40 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> >> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >When one dies it wouldn't be so hard for himself. It would be shocking to
> >know that one have left a few people there alone and in greed.
> In grief ? The amount of grief depends on what those who are left
> behind know/don't know about life after death. IF one knows that
> people are still "alive" after their physical death then the amount of
> grief is somewhat reduced. That is one of the main reasons why
> Spiritualist churches exist. To help people to understand that
> (physical) death is not the end.
How the spiritual church helps with this better than the other churches?
>
> >He may suffer the pain of the others.
>
> He may. A better idea would be to simply move onto the spirit world.
Tell me, which book you find the best explaining and describing what the
spirit world is? I've read only the Newton's books, but something about them
doesn't sound correct IMO. Do you think that in our dreams and oobe-s we
visit the spirit world or they take place on a lower level?
> >There is something not very logical when religious people cry for their
> >deads. All religions speak about life after dead and that we all will go
> >there, right ? So why so much tragedy about being separated temporary ?
>
> Because *saying* that there is life after death and *believing* that
> there is life after death are two different things.
>
> >Seems like the religious people deeply inside don't really believe in
> >eternal life.
>
> It isn't so much a case of "don't believe", as "don't know", IMO.
I think that this is because of the fear. Even now, when I was so many times
consciously oob I am still a little afraid to die. It's not exactly like
before - that I will vanish. It is more like I don't feel ready to die.
There is a little difference in the sensation of leaving the body temporary
and leaving it permanently. The oob feels really like separating, going out
of the shell, but the self reminds almost unchanged. The final dieing feels
like complete reprogramming or even dissolving of the self. You are still a
unit, but without a sense of self. It's very strange and is scary IMO.
> >I have to admit that with these oobe-s I became shamefully
> >indifferent to death.
>
> Now you know why most people don't consciously remember OOBs. :-)
Most of the people remember them. They just don't remember the process of
the separation and because of this dismiss them as dreams. It's strange how
little the people think about their dreams. They spent 1/3 of their lives
out of their bodies but only few ask themselves what the dreams are after
all. I really don't understand the people sometimes.
> In many ways you are correct, but when you see children acting like
> children then does that bother you ? The same goes for spiritual
> children. If people don't want to be bothered learning about life
> after death etc. then that is their choice. They cannot afterwards
> complain about the repercussions of such an attitude. Neither
> should you.
>
> The point of this newsgroup, and Spiritualist churches/groups, is to
> act as a school (so to speak) for those who wish to learn more about
> the "school of life". Everyone has the option of "attending", or not
> attending, as they see fit.
The spiritualism is not from yesterday IMO. I think that the discarnate
spirits must be spiritualists themselves. Every religion is basically one or
another form of spiritualism. The first people were spiritualists before
anything else. However people always had pictured the death as something
monstrous. When the majority fears the death must be some reason for
this.There is a saying "I am not afraid of the death, I am afraid of the
dieing." Maybe the people are afraid of the physical pain? There is
something wrong with this system - why should this be with pain? It hurts to
be born - it hurts to die. The physical body is not the greatest invention
of the spirit scientists.
>
> >Maybe I am wrong. What the
> >spiritualists do when somebody dies? Do they cry, do they go to the
cemetery
> >at all, do they plant gardens on the graves? I know that they would pray
and
> >send light, but these are rather rituals of life. Do they feel sad when
> >somebody dies and if they do what should be the reason for this?
>
> IMO it depends to some degree on the age of those left behind. If you
> are very close to someone and they went "on holidays" for the next
> forty years then would that bother you ? Even if one knows one will
> "meet again" one may still miss that person's physical presence.
Yes, this is very much so.
>
> >Exactly! They are still alive, they are only a little... invisible. There
is
> >even some fun in this. After I die I would like to spend at least one -
two
> >weeks poltergeisting around.
>
> You wouldn't want to catch up with your old friends/relatives who had
> died before you as soon as possible ?
Well, first I wanted to write 1-2 months, but this is why I changed it to
1-2 weeks. It's not so much. They can wait a little. After that we will have
a plenty of time together. But I am not so sure that there are so many
people there eager to see me again: "Run everybody, she's back! - Who? - The
one that asks 60 questions per minute! - Heeeelp!" :-)
Izabela Melamed
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:15:05 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> in my last life in Russia, 1915 or so, I was purposely drowned.
> THAT didn't bother me all that much, but my guardian was HIGHLY
> ticked off, but she got over it.
You were Rasputin ! :-)
Izabela Melamed
"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:9hd2ij$gs2$2...@63.78.119.101...
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:59 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >There is a little difference in the sensation of leaving the body
temporary
> >and leaving it permanently. The oob feels really like separating, going
out
> >of the shell, but the self reminds almost unchanged. The final dieing
feels
> >like complete reprogramming or even dissolving of the self. You are still
a
> >unit, but without a sense of self. It's very strange and is scary IMO.
> no, its actually like the OOB, except you don't come back.
I don't know very well. I didn't have a near death experience in this life,
but there are some states of the consciousness which are close to death. One
of them is during sleep. I think the eastern philosophy refers to it as "The
Clear Light". In sleep this state appears before the state of the dreaming.
Consciousness recall of experiences in this state is possible only for
extremely enlighten and well trained people. The oob experiences take place
on lower levels of reality - from physical to the level, which I like to
call "The Zone". Consciousness recall of experiences beyond this plane are
almost impossible for the physical brain because they cannot be referred to
the self, but to more... fundamental consciousness.
Izabela Melamed
"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:29:07 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >> no, its actually like the OOB, except you don't come back.
> >
> >I don't know very well. I didn't have a near death experience in this
life,
> ok, if you go out on an OOB, you know that you WILL return to
> your body, after certain time/situation/etc... that's the norm...
> now, lets say you die in your sleep, during an OOB...
> you just stay there in that state? yes?
This puts the things in a new perspective. I was thinking - if I die during
oob or a dream I would be very confused why I cannot go back. It's quite
possible that I will not realize at all that I am dead. The time is very
uncertain when oob. One experience which in physical is only a few minutes
may take a life time on the astral planes. So I may keep trying to go back
in my body for years not knowing that it is not alive anymore. I may dismiss
the entities that will come to help me as thought forms or liars. When I
begin to think that I am probably really dead I may panic. But the planes
are like moving sends. The more one fears the deeper she falls. So I - the
spiritually oriented oob-er - may end up as a frighten earth bound spirit.
Maybe from now when I am oob or have a lucid dream except that I should ask
myself "Am I dreaming?" but also "Am I dead?"
> once you DO discover your body 'died', then you either stay
> there, or go to where ever you are supposed to go.
>
> this was just an example...btw..
Yesterday I decided finally to see what is this Artbell site. While I was
looking at the gallery of ghost's and shadow people's pictures I realized
that I am afraid. No matter how much I told to myself - "You are a ghost
too. This is normal. The shadow people must be some visitors from parallel
worlds or only thought forms. You have encounters with shadow people
yourself and you perfectly know how to protect yourself. Many of those
lights are how the good spirit guides look. Nothing frightening about the
lights - they are people too. You perhaps look similar when you are oob etc.
and etc." But I was more and more afraid. Why? Why the spirit world, which
is our real home is so alien to us?
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:4oigjt4kahb99vnqn...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:15:05 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
< snip >
>> In grief ? The amount of grief depends on what those who are left
>> behind know/don't know about life after death. IF one knows that
>> people are still "alive" after their physical death then the amount of
>> grief is somewhat reduced. That is one of the main reasons why
>> Spiritualist churches exist. To help people to understand that
>> (physical) death is not the end.
>How the spiritual church helps with this better than the other churches?
The Spiritualist church attempts to illustrate to their followers that
people continue to exist after their physical death. AFAIK no other
church attempts to do that.
>> >He may suffer the pain of the others.
>> He may. A better idea would be to simply move onto the spirit world.
>Tell me, which book you find the best explaining and describing what the
>spirit world is?
"Life in The World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia. Psychic Press Ltd.
>I've read only the Newton's books, but something about them
>doesn't sound correct IMO. Do you think that in our dreams and oobe-s we
>visit the spirit world or they take place on a lower level?
Either.
< snip >
>There is a little difference in the sensation of leaving the body temporary
>and leaving it permanently. The oob feels really like separating, going out
>of the shell, but the self reminds almost unchanged. The final dieing feels
>like complete reprogramming or even dissolving of the self. You are still a
>unit, but without a sense of self. It's very strange and is scary IMO.
How it feels depends on how you "identify" with your current
incarnation. Some of us identify as one of our "past life" selves when
OOB. Not as we currently are in the physical sense.
< snip >
>However people always had pictured the death as something
>monstrous. When the majority fears the death must be some reason for
>this.There is a saying "I am not afraid of the death, I am afraid of the
>dieing." Maybe the people are afraid of the physical pain? There is
>something wrong with this system - why should this be with pain? It hurts to
>be born - it hurts to die. The physical body is not the greatest invention
>of the spirit scientists.
Your comments aren't correct. One does not necessarily have pain when
becoming physically born OR dying. Do you feel pain whenever you go
OOB ? I doubt it. Death is just an OOB where you don't return to
incarnation.
< snip >
>Well, first I wanted to write 1-2 months, but this is why I changed it to
>1-2 weeks. It's not so much. They can wait a little. After that we will have
>a plenty of time together. But I am not so sure that there are so many
>people there eager to see me again: "Run everybody, she's back! - Who? - The
>one that asks 60 questions per minute! - Heeeelp!" :-)
Better to ask 60 questions per minute than no questions at all. Some
people don't ask questions and then complain about not understanding
something. Rather odd. If one really wants to understand anything then
asking questions about it is a way to understand things better.
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
>news:9hfdph$62$2...@63.78.119.189...
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:29:07 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>> ok, if you go out on an OOB, you know that you WILL return to
>> your body, after certain time/situation/etc... that's the norm...
>> now, lets say you die in your sleep, during an OOB...
>> you just stay there in that state? yes?
>This puts the things in a new perspective. I was thinking - if I die during
>oob or a dream I would be very confused why I cannot go back. It's quite
>possible that I will not realize at all that I am dead. The time is very
>uncertain when oob. One experience which in physical is only a few minutes
>may take a life time on the astral planes. So I may keep trying to go back
>in my body for years not knowing that it is not alive anymore.
Finding your physical body in the graveyard might give you a
clue. :-)
> I may dismiss
>the entities that will come to help me as thought forms or liars. When I
>begin to think that I am probably really dead I may panic. But the planes
>are like moving sends. The more one fears the deeper she falls. So I - the
>spiritually oriented oob-er - may end up as a frighten earth bound spirit.
OR you may simply pray for some assistance. :-)
>Maybe from now when I am oob or have a lucid dream except that I should ask
>myself "Am I dreaming?" but also "Am I dead?"
Only if you find that you haven't a physical body to go back to.
>> once you DO discover your body 'died', then you either stay
>> there, or go to where ever you are supposed to go.
>> this was just an example...btw..
>Yesterday I decided finally to see what is this Artbell site. While I was
>looking at the gallery of ghost's and shadow people's pictures I realized
>that I am afraid. No matter how much I told to myself - "You are a ghost
>too. This is normal. The shadow people must be some visitors from parallel
>worlds or only thought forms. You have encounters with shadow people
>yourself and you perfectly know how to protect yourself. Many of those
>lights are how the good spirit guides look. Nothing frightening about the
>lights - they are people too. You perhaps look similar when you are oob etc.
>and etc." But I was more and more afraid. Why? Why the spirit world, which
>is our real home is so alien to us?
Because you are focussed in the physical world. One can also have
unpleasant memories of leaving one's body in previous lives, when one
wasn't ready and/or when one didn't want to.
Izabela Melamed
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:59 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
> >"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:4oigjt4kahb99vnqn...@4ax.com...
>
> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:15:05 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> >> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >How the spiritual church helps with this better than the other churches?
>
> The Spiritualist church attempts to illustrate to their followers that
> people continue to exist after their physical death. AFAIK no other
> church attempts to do that.
When people go to the spiritualist church - is it once in a week, or they
can go any time they want as in the other churches? I think by
"illustrating" the after life to people you mean asking the people with the
ability to contact the spirit world to demonstrate this for the audience.
Can every spiritual church bring often such people? They aren't so many. If
there were one or two churches in the all country it wouldn't be such a
problem. But as I see the spiritualist churches in Australia, UK and USA are
many. How you find so many people with extraordinary abilities?
> How it feels depends on how you "identify" with your current
> incarnation. Some of us identify as one of our "past life" selves when
> OOB. Not as we currently are in the physical sense.
Here is how I see the things and correct me if I am wrong: In all dreams or
OOB or ND experiences, which we remember, we are always aware of a self. In
deep death we must go only as a naked ego. The self is a temporary clothe
which we need to get rid of it in order to be able to move to higher
dimension. In some sense a big part of us really ceases to exist. Those who
cannot get free of their attachments, no matter from which and how many
lives they are, they will remain on lower levels of reality. This is what
scares me. I haven't read about many near death experiences of people, but
in the few I have, they always come to a certain place where they cannot
continue farther. Or they are stopped, or they decide to come back
themselves. Actually I never heard of somebody who have came back from
behind the light curtain. What is behind it?
> < snip >
>
> >However people always had pictured the death as something
> >monstrous. When the majority fears the death must be some reason for
> >this.There is a saying "I am not afraid of the death, I am afraid of the
> >dieing." Maybe the people are afraid of the physical pain? There is
> >something wrong with this system - why should this be with pain? It hurts
to
> >be born - it hurts to die. The physical body is not the greatest
invention
> >of the spirit scientists.
>
> Your comments aren't correct. One does not necessarily have pain when
> becoming physically born OR dying. Do you feel pain whenever you go
> OOB ? I doubt it. Death is just an OOB where you don't return to
> incarnation.
When we die while we sleep it perhaps doesn't hurt much. But when we die by
accident - I think it does. When we are born also hurts. It couldn't be
different. The all life hurts. The physical body hurts all the time, the
gravity hurts, the touch of the skin to the air, the breathing, the eating,
the walking. If you now concentrate on your physical body, no mater how
healthy you are, you will feel at least few points where it hurts slightly.
This is why all sports look so ridiculous to me. In them we can see how
humiliating are our physical abilities. We are so used to this that we don't
notice anymore, but the babies - they only begin to get use to the pain.
>
> < snip >
Izabela Melamed
"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:07:34 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >themselves. Actually I never heard of somebody who have came back from
> >behind the light curtain. What is behind it?
>
> HEAVEN????
...or Hell... or Nothing ???
> >When we die while we sleep it perhaps doesn't hurt much. But when we die
by
> >accident - I think it does. When we are born also hurts. It couldn't be
> >different.
> there is a movie...
> GHOST
> see it?
I don't know. I am not sure. That one with Woopy Goldberg ? I really liked
The Sixth Sense. There was another one with Robin Williams "What Dreams May
Come" - a little too flashy IMO, but there were some interesting thoughts
there. Many many years ago I saw a movie which illustrated the death process
surprisingly correct. I think it was based on the actual memories of ND-ers.
Though the technique then was very primitive the makers of the film seems
really believed in all that they were doing. There was some sci-fi
intrigue, but very little. Most of the film was the journey of the soul from
the body, through the tunnel etc., but they also got only to the light
curtain and the character had to come back.
You see what is my problem with the movies. I make movies myself and when I
watch a film I think too much about how it was done. The effects in a film
can be so transparent sometimes that behind them I can see only high budgets
and commercialism. This is why I love to dream. Every night when I go to bed
I go to see something real. Only if I could take others with me in my dreams
they would see unspeakable worlds. If this is how the after life will be - I
agree to go there when the time is okay. But I am not very sure. The dreams
are on a lower level.
> he died, and didn't know he died for a while, and refused to
> leave for a bit-portrays it in a pretty good way as far as
> possibilities.
Aha, there was some jealousy story there, right? Jealousy seems to be one of
the most powerful earthbounding forces. The "this is mine" factor.
Izabela Melamed
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:11:03 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:9hfdph$62$2...@63.78.119.189...
>
<snip>
> >are like moving sends. The more one fears the deeper she falls. So I -
the
> >spiritually oriented oob-er - may end up as a frighten earth bound
spirit.
>
> OR you may simply pray for some assistance. :-)
No, prayers definitely don't help me. I tried it. The light glowing - yes,
but prayers - no. A few nights ago I woke up because one of those shadow
things was looking at me. I began praying so fast as never before, but
nothing happened. The light pushed it away. The light always helps, but they
keep coming back.
<snip>
> >and etc." But I was more and more afraid. Why? Why the spirit world,
which
> >is our real home is so alien to us?
>
> Because you are focused in the physical world. One can also have
> unpleasant memories of leaving one's body in previous lives, when one
> wasn't ready and/or when one didn't want to.
Rather unpleasant memories from the spirit world. Nothing in the physical
reality scares me. No alive murderers, rapists etc. fright me. I can be
brave to stupidity walking midnight in the most dangerous areas of the city,
talking to suspicious people and it always have been like this. I am not
afraid of any incarnated people. I am afraid of spirits. I think, some time
ago I told here how when I was a child I left the doors and the windows
opened when I was alone. I preferred a murderer to enter the house than to
meet a ghost one on one at closed doors. Now, even I had so many oob-s and
had realized in them that I am a ghost myself, I am still afraid. I still
cannot sleep alone without the lights on. This fear is the main reason for
me to look for this kind of news groups. I want it gone, but nothing seems
to help. I want the fear of spirits to go away.
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:putojtod4f1ddg59h...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:59 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
< snip >
>> The Spiritualist church attempts to illustrate to their followers that
>> people continue to exist after their physical death. AFAIK no other
>> church attempts to do that.
>When people go to the spiritualist church - is it once in a week, or they
>can go any time they want as in the other churches?
Spiritualist church services tend to be held only once a week from my
experiences here. I think it is the same in New Zealand and the UK.
> I think by
>"illustrating" the after life to people you mean asking the people with the
>ability to contact the spirit world to demonstrate this for the audience.
Yep.
>Can every spiritual church bring often such people? They aren't so many. If
>there were one or two churches in the all country it wouldn't be such a
>problem. But as I see the spiritualist churches in Australia, UK and USA are
>many. How you find so many people with extraordinary abilities?
That's why these churches generally have "development circles". To
help train people for this role.
>> How it feels depends on how you "identify" with your current
>> incarnation. Some of us identify as one of our "past life" selves when
>> OOB. Not as we currently are in the physical sense.
>Here is how I see the things and correct me if I am wrong: In all dreams or
>OOB or ND experiences, which we remember, we are always aware of a self. In
>deep death we must go only as a naked ego. The self is a temporary clothe
>which we need to get rid of it in order to be able to move to higher
>dimension.
One can identify with their last incarnation *and* move onto the
spirit world.
> In some sense a big part of us really ceases to exist. Those who
>cannot get free of their attachments,
Attachment to the physical world, and individual identity, are two
different things.
>no matter from which and how many
>lives they are, they will remain on lower levels of reality. This is what
>scares me.
No need to be scared. This doesn't happen quite as you have portrayed
things.
>I haven't read about many near death experiences of people, but
>in the few I have, they always come to a certain place where they cannot
>continue farther. Or they are stopped, or they decide to come back
>themselves. Actually I never heard of somebody who have came back from
>behind the light curtain. What is behind it?
The spirit world.
< snip >
>> Your comments aren't correct. One does not necessarily have pain when
>> becoming physically born OR dying. Do you feel pain whenever you go
>> OOB ? I doubt it. Death is just an OOB where you don't return to
>> incarnation.
>When we die while we sleep it perhaps doesn't hurt much. But when we die by
>accident - I think it does.
Not necessarily. If one doesn't have the karma to feel the pain of a
painful death then they will feel little/none of it. Arranging this is
pretty straightforward. The person is generally just removed from
their physical for a second or so to the death of the physical form.
>When we are born also hurts. It couldn't be
>different. The all life hurts. The physical body hurts all the time, the
>gravity hurts, the touch of the skin to the air, the breathing, the eating,
>the walking. If you now concentrate on your physical body, no mater how
>healthy you are, you will feel at least few points where it hurts slightly.
>This is why all sports look so ridiculous to me. In them we can see how
>humiliating are our physical abilities. We are so used to this that we don't
>notice anymore, but the babies - they only begin to get use to the pain.
So THAT'S why it's not a good idea to become "physical" ? :-)
Izabela Melamed
"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:30:57 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> >themselves. Actually I never heard of somebody who have came back from
> >> >behind the light curtain. What is behind it?
> >>
> >> this is too tempting. I is a bad boy...LOL
> >> HEAVEN????
>
> instead of white.
One of my most beautiful and vivid conscious dreams I ever had was about the
reality. I flew in a quest for the real spiritual world. That was time when
I was obsessed (like every new oobe-er) with the question are the oobe-s
real or just imagination. I don't have enough words in English to tell you
what a beauty I was offered to see. First of all I was shown the Hell as the
people had imagined it during the medieval ages - red, fire, horrible
monsters, pain, screams and impressive, majestic, grant, august awesome, but
beautiful, beautiful to tears. I was told: "This is the real." I didn't
agree and insisted for the real. The next I was taken to another Hell of
ice, white, crystals, the cold colors of the rainbow, spectacular lights and
sparks of snowflakes. The people frozen in the ice for centuries, nothing
alive, nothing breathing or warm. Even more beautiful it makes you feel the
eternity. "This is the real." Again I felt this is not true and wanted
mine - to see the real. I saw other worlds too, but I don't remember them
except that all of them were hells. I don't know why they were showing me
only hells, when I wanted to see the real. Every time they told me the lie,
and every time I was telling - "This is not real. I want to see the real
spirit world." Then I was taken to a place like the earth and was put on the
top of a mountain, which for some reason I thought that this was a spirit
counterpart of the earthly Himalayas. I was standing on a small platform and
in front of me was the all plain sublimity of the nature. All around me was
a panorama of the mountain hills just as they would be on the earth. This
was real. I felt this was real, because it was simple and absolutely wise.
The wind was real, the air was real, the grass was real but they were all
made of spirit. I don't know how to explain this. It wasn't hell and it
wasn't paradise. All was temperate and correct. All was connected by a
finest substance of reason and silent thought. All was nothing but life.
Right on the edge of the platform was sitting somebody, who's face I
couldn't see. I knew that he knows that I am there, but he didn't turn to
look at me. He was just sitting and looking at the mountain, like was
telling to me "Don't disturb the perfection. Just breath it."
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:43ntjtgth0udc6gel...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:11:03 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
>> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>> >are like moving sends. The more one fears the deeper she falls. So I -
>> >the spiritually oriented oob-er - may end up as a frighten earth bound
>> >spirit.
>> OR you may simply pray for some assistance. :-)
>No, prayers definitely don't help me. I tried it. The light glowing - yes,
>but prayers - no. A few nights ago I woke up because one of those shadow
>things was looking at me. I began praying so fast as never before, but
>nothing happened. The light pushed it away. The light always helps, but they
>keep coming back.
Then why not ask the person(s) what they want ? :-)
><snip>
>> >and etc." But I was more and more afraid. Why? Why the spirit world,
>> >which is our real home is so alien to us?
>> Because you are focused in the physical world. One can also have
>> unpleasant memories of leaving one's body in previous lives, when one
>> wasn't ready and/or when one didn't want to.
>Rather unpleasant memories from the spirit world. Nothing in the physical
>reality scares me. No alive murderers, rapists etc. fright me. I can be
>brave to stupidity walking midnight in the most dangerous areas of the city,
>talking to suspicious people and it always have been like this. I am not
>afraid of any incarnated people. I am afraid of spirits. I think, some time
>ago I told here how when I was a child I left the doors and the windows
>opened when I was alone. I preferred a murderer to enter the house than to
>meet a ghost one on one at closed doors. Now, even I had so many oob-s and
>had realized in them that I am a ghost myself, I am still afraid. I still
>cannot sleep alone without the lights on. This fear is the main reason for
>me to look for this kind of news groups. I want it gone, but nothing seems
>to help. I want the fear of spirits to go away.
Praying for help in both understanding why you have the fear, AND how
you can reduce it, should help. In a conscious sense regression
therapy can sometimes help in such a situation.
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>"--Shiva--" <NOSPAMs...@pcis.net.invalid> wrote in message
>news:9ho5c0$drv$1...@63.78.119.159...
< snip >
>> he died, and didn't know he died for a while, and refused to
>> leave for a bit-portrays it in a pretty good way as far as
>> possibilities.
>Aha, there was some jealousy story there, right? Jealousy seems to be one of
>the most powerful earthbounding forces. The "this is mine" factor.
"Possessiveness" of people, and things, can certainly lead to people
being "earthbound". This is one of the reasons why it is a good idea
to pray for people who have died. It brings more help/light to them.
Helping them, and anyone that they might have been around in the
physical world.
John Fitzsimons
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
< snip >
>One of my most beautiful and vivid conscious dreams I ever had was about the
>reality. I flew in a quest for the real spiritual world. That was time when
>I was obsessed (like every new oobe-er) with the question are the oobe-s
>real or just imagination. I don't have enough words in English to tell you
>what a beauty I was offered to see. First of all I was shown the Hell as the
>people had imagined it during the medieval ages - red, fire, horrible
>monsters, pain, screams and impressive, majestic, grant, august awesome, but
>beautiful, beautiful to tears. I was told: "This is the real." I didn't
>agree and insisted for the real. The next I was taken to another Hell of
>ice, white, crystals, the cold colors of the rainbow, spectacular lights and
>sparks of snowflakes. The people frozen in the ice for centuries, nothing
>alive, nothing breathing or warm. Even more beautiful it makes you feel the
>eternity. "This is the real." Again I felt this is not true and wanted
>mine - to see the real. I saw other worlds too, but I don't remember them
>except that all of them were hells. I don't know why they were showing me
>only hells, when I wanted to see the real. Every time they told me the lie,
>and every time I was telling - "This is not real. I want to see the real
>spirit world."
There is not ONE spirit world. Just as there isn't one physical world
or one "view" of earth that is correct. Suppose someone says "Show me
earth".
If you show them Antarctica then is this "earth" ?
If you show them the Sahara then is this "earth" ?
If you show them London then is this "earth" ?
If you show them Tahiti then is this "earth" ?
Which one of the above is correct ? Or aren't there multiple "correct"
images ? So too with the spirit world.
>Then I was taken to a place like the earth and was put on the
>top of a mountain, which for some reason I thought that this was a spirit
>counterpart of the earthly Himalayas. I was standing on a small platform and
>in front of me was the all plain sublimity of the nature. All around me was
>a panorama of the mountain hills just as they would be on the earth. This
>was real. I felt this was real, because it was simple and absolutely wise.
>The wind was real, the air was real, the grass was real but they were all
>made of spirit. I don't know how to explain this. It wasn't hell and it
>wasn't paradise. All was temperate and correct. All was connected by a
>finest substance of reason and silent thought. All was nothing but life.
>Right on the edge of the platform was sitting somebody, who's face I
>couldn't see. I knew that he knows that I am there, but he didn't turn to
>look at me. He was just sitting and looking at the mountain, like was
>telling to me "Don't disturb the perfection. Just breath it."
Sound advice. Very likely from one of your own spirit guides. :-)
Lina
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>"John Fitzsimons" <jo...@net2000.com.au> wrote in message
>news:43ntjtgth0udc6gel...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:11:03 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
Hello Izabela,
>> OR you may simply pray for some assistance. :-)
>
>No, prayers definitely don't help me. I tried it. The light glowing - yes,
>but prayers - no. A few nights ago I woke up because one of those shadow
>things was looking at me. I began praying so fast as never before, but
>nothing happened. The light pushed it away. The light always helps, but they
>keep coming back.
What is prayer?
It is a request from the Soul ( A Soul's desire).
All you need to do is speak from the Heart, and you are praying.
Lina.
Izabela Melamed
> >spirit world."
>
> There is not ONE spirit world. Just as there isn't one physical world
> or one "view" of earth that is correct. Suppose someone says "Show me
> earth".
>
> If you show them Antarctica then is this "earth" ?
>
> If you show them the Sahara then is this "earth" ?
>
> If you show them London then is this "earth" ?
>
> If you show them Tahiti then is this "earth" ?
>
> Which one of the above is correct ? Or aren't there multiple "correct"
> images ? So too with the spirit world.
I agree with part of this. And I still think that there are realities which
are so temporary that they cannot be considered real. But I meant another
thing. We have talked that the spirit people appear to us in the form in
which we are ready to see them. IMO the same is about spirit realities. We
are not yet able to percept them in their real form. Again we have to
translate what we see in visual terms closer to our home reality. The same,
the same as with spirit people. The difference maybe is that spirit people
change themselves, but when we observe whole worlds we change the images
ourselves.
My request was to see the real spiritual world unveiled, real, as it is, no
visual mediums, no translations etc. I cannot swear that the mountain that I
saw was the real spirit world. But I felt the real think so close that ...
Actually lately I recall a lot of dreams where I have very fuzzy memories of
such clear perception. It's impossible to tell about them. It's impossible
to explain. Also there are moments of conscious awareness when I fall asleep
when I know that I begin to see the real, but strongly - the information is
so weird for my brain that I jump all in panic and fear like I am going to
die. This is not OOB. I am not leaving my body, but I feel some kind of
transformation in my consciousness, like it begins working on a completely
different principals. I am still myself, but ... am not. Sometimes, waking
up in the dream I think - here it is, it is so simple. I see this way, I
think this way, it is me. When I wake up I should be able to remember." But
when I pass the board I cannot remember a bit. Crazy, isn't it. Maybe after
all is time for me to go to the psychiatrist :-)
Izabela Melamed
"Lina" <lm...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
news:3bc9a80f....@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
Yes, I always had that problem with prayers. For me they remain some kind of
poem which I have to repeat from time to time no matter what it says. I know
the reason for this though. I grew up in a socialist country where no such
things like God, church, religion or prayer existed. For first time I saw a
Bible less than 10 years ago after the Perestroika which brought also
freedom for the publishing. Yes, only a few years ago such a world existed.
It may sound strange for you as strange for me yet is that people pray.
But seems still there was something in me that instinctively wanted to talk
to the other world. I remember when I was a child I wanted so much to pray
but didn't know how. Until I found one communist poem written in the style
of a prayer. It's words were something like :
"Revolution,
Virgin in fire,
Mother of the Communist Party,
Please, don't leave
me and my people... " :-)
And because there was nothing better I repeated it with all my heart,
believing that it is at least a bit close to a real prayer. Now this makes
me laugh. My spirit guides were probably very confused :-D
Lina
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>"Lina" <lm...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
>news:3bc9a80f....@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
Hello Izabela,
>> What is prayer?
>> It is a request from the Soul ( A Soul's desire).
>> All you need to do is speak from the Heart, and you are praying.
>
>
>Yes, I always had that problem with prayers. For me they remain some kind of
>poem which I have to repeat from time to time no matter what it says. I know
>the reason for this though. I grew up in a socialist country where no such
>things like God, church, religion or prayer existed. For first time I saw a
>Bible less than 10 years ago after the Perestroika which brought also
>freedom for the publishing. Yes, only a few years ago such a world existed.
>It may sound strange for you as strange for me yet is that people pray.
>
>But seems still there was something in me that instinctively wanted to talk
>to the other world. I remember when I was a child I wanted so much to pray
>but didn't know how. Until I found one communist poem written in the style
>of a prayer. It's words were something like :
>
>"Revolution,
>Virgin in fire,
>Mother of the Communist Party,
>Please, don't leave
>me and my people... " :-)
>
>And because there was nothing better I repeated it with all my heart,
>believing that it is at least a bit close to a real prayer. Now this makes
>me laugh. My spirit guides were probably very confused :-D
What you write is interesting, but it seems to me that you are making
a too great a deal of what prayer means to you. It is really very
simple really. (Believe me, I too had a misconception regarding
prayers, thinking it was a purely religious manifestation. And seeing
that I was not religious, I was determined not to get caught praying.
lol)
Surely there have been times when you have "asked" for help or
understanding, or even for improvement on a certain situation?
You can ask this of anyone, or anything.
A simple request, a simple thank you directed to the Universe is just
a prayer.
Prayers are very simple things....we do it all the time without
realising it.
Yet, it in all it's simplicity, prayers are so, so powerfull.
Don't underestimate the simplicity, not the effectiveness of asking.
For asking, when it comes from the heart, is just another form of
prayer.
Lina.
Izabela Melamed
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:51:02 +0200, "Izabela Melamed"
> <izab...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Lina" <lm...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
> >news:3bc9a80f....@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
>
> Hello Izabela,
>
> >> What is prayer?
> >> It is a request from the Soul ( A Soul's desire).
> >> All you need to do is speak from the Heart, and you are praying.
> >
> >
> >Yes, I always had that problem with prayers.
<snip>
>
> What you write is interesting, but it seems to me that you are making
> a too great a deal of what prayer means to you. It is really very
> simple really. (Believe me, I too had a misconception regarding
> prayers, thinking it was a purely religious manifestation. And seeing
> that I was not religious, I was determined not to get caught praying.
> lol)
Agree, I do make a big deal of praying, but still there is something about
it that I don't understand. I even don't know what exactly I want to know
:-) The prayer in every religion is not just a free text. There is so much
meaning in what about, to who and in what form people pray. And in all
religions they do it. I gave the example with the poem to show you how even
a child (I know it first hand) that never knew that there is such a thing
like praying instinctively needed to do it. It needed a certain formula,
something like a password which would open the gates of the divine. How a
word can be the key? Why ? This is what bothers me. Why people of the world
gather together to repeat together the same words over and over again, in
different languages, but with the same meaning. It is not even clear what
exactly the people pray about. Always the same words, that hardly many ever
think on their meaning. It is the state of mind, the feeling, the direction,
the music of the prayer and all could be put in only one word "Help!"
Lina
<izab...@usa.net> wrote:
Hello Izabela,
<snip>
>
>Agree, I do make a big deal of praying, but still there is something about
>it that I don't understand. I even don't know what exactly I want to know
>:-) The prayer in every religion is not just a free text. There is so much
>meaning in what about, to who and in what form people pray. And in all
>religions they do it. I gave the example with the poem to show you how even
>a child (I know it first hand) that never knew that there is such a thing
>like praying instinctively needed to do it.
I am sure many people prayer without even realising it.
>It needed a certain formula,
>something like a password which would open the gates of the divine. How a
>word can be the key? Why ? This is what bothers me.
I don't believe that one needs a formula, or a key of sorts to enable
a prayer to be heard. Is it not said that while you think, your very
thoughts are heard by the universe? Why then still need a password,
if you are already being heard?
A prayer, if heartfelt, will be heard regardless of whether it is said
out aloud, if it is formed by thought, or if it chanted by millions of
people simultaneously.
Admittedly some people do feel more comfortable if they can go through
a certain ritual when praying. I suppose it also depends on which
religion they adhere to, and then follow the prescriptions of that
religion.
>Why people of the world
>gather together to repeat together the same words over and over again, in
>different languages, but with the same meaning. It is not even clear what
>exactly the people pray about. Always the same words, that hardly many ever
>think on their meaning. It is the state of mind, the feeling, the direction,
>the music of the prayer and all could be put in only one word "Help!"
This sounds very much like religious incantations - a worshipping
(paying one's respects) of gods, or one God.
For me a prayer is well directed to a certain entity, and with a
certain intention attached to it. Many people prayer in group, which
heightens the effect. But that group in turn fully knows what and to
whom it is praying. (Like many of us world wide did on and after 11
September)
But let us suppose that a certain religious group decided to gather in
prayer, and did so with their songs, their meaningless, repetitious
words, etc. The intention would be known as to why they are praying,
and gathered in the first place. Let us just suppose they would agree
to prayer for world peace. That then would be the intent. Even if
the act of their prayer seems meaningless to us, perhaps it is....but
it is backed up with a very defined intent.......and i think that is
what makes it work. They just do it in the way to which they are
accustomed to do, and by the instructions of their particular
religion.
Seeing that there are so many diverse religions, and so many manners
in which they individually conduct their prayer....again I think it
all boils down to the intent. Is the universe not without a
particular language? The universe does not need a language. It is we,
humans who have the need to express ourselves in our own language, for
we know only that which we speak. No one language is more effective
than another. No method, or ritual is more effective than another. The
universe understands and hears all equally. But sincerity and
intent.....perhaps that is the key, in order to be heard?
Lina.