The Dangers of False Gurus
StarrHawke
(or, Why Starry Rises to Bait.)
A few years ago, when I was considerably more naive, I had a very
disturbing experience. After hearing it, maybe you'll understand a
little more why I have a zero-tolerance level for head-games.
At the time, I spent a fair amount of time in spiritually oriented
cyber chats. It was a pretty enlightening experience, over all... a
crash course in group dynamics, personality disorders, spiritual
emergence and the delusions that go along with it (including my own!)
and I got to watch cults of the dangerous type form, and break up, and
reform. I even chatted (ok, argued with) with the Heaven's Gate
types, before the "mothership" came. And got flamed for saying they
were dangerous. Go figure.
As I said, I was pretty naive. If someone flashed some spiritual
insight and psychic glow my direction, and claimed to be an
enlightened muckity-muck incarnate... I took them at their word. I
felt their energy, and the reality of their experience, but I didnt
have enough information or book-learning at the time to evaluate or
check out their claims and stories, and didnt know that spiritual and
shamanic type abilities aren't necessarily linked to levels of
enlightenment, wisdom, or spiritual understanding.... but sometimes
are symptoms of psychosis or spiritual attachments and possessions.
Silly me :) Fruitloops can pack one heck of a powerful psychic punch.
I got pulled in by a guy who spoke in mystical mumbo jumbo -- I'll
call him George. Now, I didnt understand much of what George said,
but then.. I was a novice, right? recently awakened, brand new and
vunerable.... I didnt expect to understand, thats why I wanted to find
someone wiser and more experienced to hang with. What I did
understand was that he *felt* sincere, and warm and glowing... that he
didnt like many of the same people I didnt like, and that he said some
things that made a good deal of sense, and a lot of other things that
just confused me. But I'd seen enough Zen-Master stuff in movies and
tv, that I sort of expected Spiritual Masters to confuse me on
purpose. And I appreciated that he was steering me away from people I
didnt really want to listen to, anyway. (the voice of experience isnt
always pleasant)
George and I ended up with a pretty close bond.. I was really
desparate for someone that at least knew about the realms I'd been
thrown into, and he did know of their existance.. i just didnt know
he'd lost touch with this realm of existance. <smile>It wasnt too
disturbing, though a bit embarrassing in hindsight. Most of us
beleive some pretty stupid things from time to time, and do some even
stupider things. Especially when involved in a tidy little mutual
admiration society where we reinforce our opinions of ourselves as the
Enlightened Saviors. <grin> (people in the stages of awakening should
never be left together unsupervised!! )
This was ok, if silly, until his guru act attracted some others, who
all wanted to be the guru's best buddy, too. One woman, i'll call her
Violet, was particularly persistant. He told her to shove off.. so she
did.. sort of. She created another online persona, and reintroduced
herself, this time, flattering him heavily, and introducing doubts
about me and anyone else who might get in her way. Over a period of
about 2 weeks, she played his own headgames back on him, confusing him
to the point he was accusing me and others of "attacking him on the
astral" and all other kinds of "diabolical" things. <wry smile>.
Along with nuturing his rapidly growing ego (which of course he
claimed to be beyond) and tearing down anyone who might give him an
alternative or balanced view of things.
Then came the hook..... she asked for George's help with a woman
dying of cancer. He was a lawyer, and this woman (who I'll call Iris)
wanted some assistance with drawing up a will. But next thing you
know, George the Guru decided to be her spiritual counselor. Mind
you... This man was a lawyer. Not a counselor. No training in
counseling whatsoever. Nor did he have any sort of religious or
spiritual training. He just mucked about in the otherworlds and
played with spirits who flattered his ego and attached themselves to
him. He had no clue what he was doing, refused to read books,
wouldnt listen to people with experience, dismissed workshops,
teaching lineages, and any other sort of religous/spiritual teachings.
These things, in his mind, were passe... he was beyond them. GOD
worked through him.. or well.. something did, anyway.
Iris was 27. She was broke. She was severely depressed. She couldnt
pay her rent or buy groceries, she couldnt work. She had terminal
cancer with about 2 year life expectancy. She started asking George
and Violet about the possibilities of euthanasia, compassionate
suicide, and any legal ramifications involved.. She also had a
boyfriend who loved her, a family, and a HUGE number of online
friends, none of whom knew she was ill, besides George, and Violet.
George the Guru took it upon himself to advise her. He had no
training, no experience, only his delusions and Iris and Violets
confidence to guide him. He understood her desire to commit suicide.
He himself felt trapped in this world. His advice included that she
shouldnt talk to any one else.... that no one else in the chats
understood his gifts, because they werent 'real', that the others
were too interested in words and semantics and recognition, trapped in
their egos so much that they couldnt understand the first thing about
spirituality. The only ones she should talk to were George and
Violet.
She listened. With the exception of a very few other online friends,
no one else even knew she was ill, and none of them knew she was in
financial trouble, much less contemplating suicide. She didnt tell her
boyfriend or family about any of it, either. Her boyfriend knew only
that she was seriously ill, not that it was terminal., much less
considering suicide. She didnt want to worry people.
The chats were frequented by about 500 semi regular visitors. Most if
not all knew her or at least knew of her, and they had previously
raised large amounts of cash for others in need. But they didnt know
there was a need. George the Guru made sure of that.
Mr. Guru made BIG bucks. (i know, I worked for him for a brief
while... we closed 2 $600,000 contracts in that time, and his
expenses were low) But not once did he offer to pay her rent or buy
her food. He took the data entry work I'd been doing for him, and
gave it to her... without telling me, btw. It paid very little, but
this was the extent of his "charity".
If I remember right, Violet did ship her a crate or two of ensure.
But Mr Guru did nothing about her rent, about her food... . not once
did he visit her. and Mr. Guru lived less than a 2 hour drive from her
house. Instead, George the Guru encouraged her towards euthansia,
misquoting the Tibetian Book of the Dead. She died alone... with Mr.
Guru and Violet on the phone. He couldnt even be bothered to drive
the 2 hours to be with her physically. His wife might find out he'd
been talking to women on the internet. While on the phone, after
she'd taken the pills... Violet revealed her original identity and
deception to Mr. Guru... and asked Iris, on her deathbed, to make him
promise to forgive Violet. (because after all Violet had done this
for Iris, right?) He promised.
As Iris died... Mr Guru freaked out. He hung up the phone. He left
Violet to deal with it. And in the morning, told Violet that she had
cost Iris her soul, among other things. As specified in the will Mr.
Guru drew up, Iris's ashes were shipped to him for disposal.
Another chat regular and close friend of mine ( who had been
counseling Violet in BOTH of her personas, but didnt know what was
going on) agreed to hold an online memorial for Iris. If I remember
right, there were close to 300 attendees. People spoke for 3-4 hours.
The night before, Violet confessed to the woman she'd asked to run
the memorial-- confessed her deception about the names, and the
circumstances of Iris's death.... which Mr. Guru had announced in
vague terms, as a friend, leaving his part in her suicide out. So
my friend sat there, conducting this memorial, choking as Violet and
Mr Guru talked about Iris's last moments, and hard choices... knowing
the layers of deceptions that were involved in the whole thing, and
quietly throwing up between keystrokes. I sat there, too....
watching as Violet talked about Mr. Guru's selfless service. The full
story was peiced together over the next few weeks. During that time,
Mr. Guru advised at least 3 other severly depressed people about
euthansia. Luckily, they werent as isolated as Iris was. They talked
to others. But still, it wasnt easy to undo the damage he did to
them. His mind games were that insidous. I can't begin to describe
how many people were deeply hurt by this thing.
Iris died to support his guru complex.
Yes, if given other options, if it had been handled differently... she
might have made the same choice. But it would have been her free
choice, not part of a manipulated sick and decietful game. She could
have had family there, she could have had REAL spiritual counseling...
she could have had the support of her friends, her lover, and her
family... but she had none of those things. All because of two
people's head games self delusions, romantic obsessions and ego
problems.
So, yeah...
When I see the same kind of mind games that set up this situation,
giving Violet and George power over Iris, over each other, and over
others.... I will ALWAYS expose them, whatever the stated intent. Is
it possible I over react? Sure. But I'd rather look foolish and
bitchy, than allow something like that web of deception to be woven
under my nose again.
When I say dont open up to *anyone* who plays mind-games like this...
I MEAN IT. There is no need, and no excuse for them. And when I say,
please dont dignify this sort of behavior with the title of "teacher"
..... I mean that, too.. because it gives them authority in the minds
of confused and vunerable newcomers to the spiritual realms. I
understand that some of you may choose to be a willing victim of a
"mind fuck".... and you can turned it into a valuable lesson for
yourself.. But not everyone is capable of that.
Iris wasn't.
The dangers are real.
Endgamer
wrote:
><Snip long and excellent post>
>When I say dont open up to *anyone* who plays mind-games like this...
>I MEAN IT. There is no need, and no excuse for them. And when I say,
>please dont dignify this sort of behavior with the title of "teacher"
>..... I mean that, too.. because it gives them authority in the minds
>of confused and vunerable newcomers to the spiritual realms. I
>understand that some of you may choose to be a willing victim of a
>"mind fuck".... and you can turned it into a valuable lesson for
>yourself.. But not everyone is capable of that.
>
> Iris wasn't.
>
>The dangers are real.
>
>
>
That was really enlightening, Starrhawke. Thanks for sharing it.
Endgamer (Endga...@hotmail.com)
#####################################
I've got a business, a secretary, a mother,
two ex-wives and several bartenders depending
on me, and I don't intend to disappoint them
all by getting myself slightly killed!
Cary Grant, North by Northwest
#####################################
Gopher
starr...@metista.com (StarrHawke) wrote:
> The Dangers of False Gurus:
> (or, Why Starry Rises to Bait.)
> So, yeah...
> When I see the same kind of mind games that set up this situation,
> giving Violet and George power over Iris, over each other, and over
> others.... I will ALWAYS expose them, whatever the stated intent. Is
> it possible I over react? Sure. But I'd rather look foolish and
> bitchy, than allow something like that web of deception to be woven
> under my nose again.
Oh, yes! now you have the Gopher going, StarrHawke. You have just pushed
my hot button. I, too, have experience with this sort of false teacher.
The person I was involved with didn't cause anyone to commit self-murder
(or hasn't yet), but he was/is fully capable of doing so, while feeling
entirely justified and faultless.
These people are dangerous! And there are so many of them, so many more
than most people realize there could be or even consider possible. They
are charismatic and narcissistic. They are so convinced that they are
prophets or saviors (the delusion my teacher, whom I shall refer to as
'Donald', is under) that it is terribly easy for them to convince others
to join them in their own delusions!
I met 'Donald' at a very vulnerable time in my life. He seemed to
represent everything I had been seeking. He had knowledge to share, he
seemed caring and compassionate and, for some reason, I (always
practical til then) fell under his spell. As a result, I allowed him to
abuse me physically, emotionally and mentally for several years. I
turned over my paychecks to him, allowed him to dictate what and when I
ate, how much I could sleep and how I would interact with the rest of
the world. I allowed him to punish me physically, in the name of doing
it for my own good (the only way to get through to me, he said). At one
point, I decided it was the Will of the Gods that he should kill me and
that I would be going against their Will if I left or fought him.
By the grace of the Gods, something opened my eyes. I saw how he was
mistreating others (not me, I thought). I rebelled, left and lived in
fear. His charisma was such that I believed that by leaving him I had
ruined my life, yet the things he asked of me (that I help him
recruit more victims) were so against my nature that I left, anyway.
He had good knowledge. He had no comprehension of the meanings of his
own words, so they meant nothing to him. But, I learned. And when I had
learned enough, I left. And, after almost 20 years, I can now say I am
no longer afraid of him!
He has other students, now, and they defend him and love him as I once
did. I can't help them. I can just hope that, eventually, they will
learn, too. Other people believe him, not me, about what happened during
those dark years. That doesn't make any difference. I remember. I know.
Now, I warn others about 'False Gurus' as you have done here,
StarrHawke. Thank you very much for that post. I know there are many
people on this ng that need to realize that the 'George's' and the
'Donald's' exist. And all of them aren't male, by the way, and all of
their victims aren't female. I know of a woman teacher even now, so much
like Donald she makes my heart freeze. I know people who have left her
the way I left Donald and they can't help her current victims, either.
(So, never let gender fool you, folks. It has nothing to do with
anything!)
So, this from a Gopher you barely know. All of you, take care. Don't
fall victim to these people. I know it's hard to recognize them, at
first. I didn't. I saw myself as involved in a holy mission. If you
start to feel that way, doubt your senses. If you start to feel you are
less a person than anyone else or that someone is perfect and you're
badly flawed, get away. You *do* have the potential for perfection! You
*are* special! Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. No one has the
right to harm you, even for your own good. And if someone really is sent
by the Gods to save the world, they're not going to start by abusing
*you*! (Am *I* over-reacting? Maybe. But what if I'm not?)
Whoa, I'd better stop here, but, please. This is important. Keep your
eyes open and your heart free. You will find your Spiritual path. You
are seekers, not victims. Seek and ye shall find a place to learn in
peace. (And, remember, Charles Manson was a False Guru!)
Blessings,
Gopher
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Nita Byrd
Thank you StarrHawke and thank you Gopher for sharing those heart-felt and
sorrowful true stories so that others may evaluate and heed the warning
signs you have both so eloquently spoken about on "false gurus". Physical,
mental, emotional or spiritual abuse is just that, abuse, and is never in
the best interests of the student. If that voice or gut feeling inside
yourself makes you feel uneasy and confused, then it's time to evaluate the
relationship.
Nita
Gopher < (StarrHawke) wrote:
> > The Dangers of False Gurus:
> > (or, Why Starry Rises to Bait.)
>
> > So, yeah...
> > When I see the same kind of mind games that set up this situation,
> > giving Violet and George power over Iris, over each other, and over
> > others.... I will ALWAYS expose them, whatever the stated intent. Is
> > it possible I over react? Sure. But I'd rather look foolish and
> > bitchy, than allow something like that web of deception to be woven
> > under my nose again.
>
> Oh, yes! now you have the Gopher going, StarrHawke. You have just pushed
> my hot button. I, too, have experience with this sort of false teacher.
> The person I was involved with didn't cause anyone to commit self-murder
> (or hasn't yet), but he was/is fully capable of doing so, while feeling
> entirely justified and faultless.
>
> These people are dangerous! And there are so many of them, so many more
> than most people realize there could be or even consider possible. They
> are charismatic and narcissistic. They are so convinced that they are
> prophets or saviors (the delusion my teacher, whom I shall refer to as
> 'Donald', is under) that it is terribly easy for them to convince others
> to join them in their own delusions!
>
> >
[:Kent-Erik:]
>In article <37792e3a....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> starr...@metista.com (StarrHawke) wrote:
>> The Dangers of False Gurus:
>> (or, Why Starry Rises to Bait.)
>
>> So, yeah...
>> When I see the same kind of mind games that set up this situation,
>> giving Violet and George power over Iris, over each other, and over
>> others.... I will ALWAYS expose them, whatever the stated intent.
Is
>> it possible I over react? Sure. But I'd rather look foolish and
>> bitchy, than allow something like that web of deception to be woven
>> under my nose again.
Gopher wrote...
>Oh, yes! now you have the Gopher going, StarrHawke. You have just
pushed
>my hot button. I, too, have experience with this sort of false teacher.
>The person I was involved with didn't cause anyone to commit
self-murder
>(or hasn't yet), but he was/is fully capable of doing so, while feeling
>entirely justified and faultless.
>
>These people are dangerous! And there are so many of them, so many more
>than most people realize there could be or even consider possible. They
>are charismatic and narcissistic. They are so convinced that they are
>prophets or saviors (the delusion my teacher, whom I shall refer to as
>'Donald', is under) that it is terribly easy for them to convince
others
> to join them in their own delusions!
><snipped a good deal of personal knowledge-desciption
>Whoa, I'd better stop here, but, please. This is important. Keep your
>eyes open and your heart free. You will find your Spiritual path. You
>are seekers, not victims. Seek and ye shall find a place to learn in
>peace. (And, remember, Charles Manson was a False Guru!)
>
Sorry for butting in on this this way... My newsserver seem to have
mislaid the original post here. But I felt that i had to tell you that I
completely agree with what you written... And as an addition, so I
just wont sound like a mee-to'er. maybe I can offer some advice. It is
how I have learned to go about in these matters. so it is personal, but
maybe can be of some help anyway...
1) When someone claims to have a direct line of communication with God
or any other diety, watch out. Selling that kind of mysticism is exactly
what has kept people enslaved in ignorance for centuries. It's one of
the things I'm fighting against.
2) To look out for jargon and secrets to which only the "initiated" can
be privy. Once you're processed through the lengthy and
strictly-enforced "degree" system, you'll discover there are really no
answers, just more gobbledygook. If they have something worthwhile to
say, they'll say it. If they don't, they'll pretend they do anyway.
3) To be wary of the approach of "You probably aren't smart enough to
join us." The only way you can prove them wrong is by joining! From the
first material you get, you feel you have to prove and defend yourself.
Don't be fooled by big words, nice typing and/or fancy paper... and
plenty of it.
This has made me upset aswell as devastated... well, no
need to say more than:
I believe that True <fill in your own favorite> builds the ego, it
doesn't tear it down.
... Kent-Erik
Flora and Eric Floen
Starr is not a bitch. She is vigilant and her eyes are eyes that have
seen the worst.
This is not an isolated story. She knows others.
I have seen this.
With people. With trainers. With horses. I have seen some horses die
miserable deaths because of "false trainers" that naieve owners belived
in.
This is so true. For here, for anywhere.
FLORA
Two Snakes
thank you for sharing. Because you did more than this.
I haven't met anyone who could mind-fuck me, but I have known some who
tried. I haven't tried to mind-fuck anybody, but I know I am capable of
doing so, I think that's partly why I can see through most of those things.
It's part of the two snakes thing, I can see almost every side of things,
thus a mind-fuck is something I'll have explored long before I tend to
react. You are right, and thank you for reminding me, not all people can do
this, I sometimes forget.
But mind-fucks can work very subtle as well, and not all are harmfull. Do
not take it the wrong way, I mean this only to illustrate what I am trying
to show. Joseph is mind-fucking as well.
...
I will explain.
You and Jospeh very strongly believe in finding your own way and absoluteley
not looking at other cultures for advice. No rituals may be borrowed. This
is your right, and I have learned to appreciate it. It is also an opinion,
that's why I can appreciate it. Jospeph's question 'What would you do
if...?' is a sincere question, I respect that. But it is still a mind-fuck.
(My opinion)
The thread leads to the thought process you are trying to get across, if you
were the only one to discover magic, you would have to do it on your own.
Which is precisely your point. The question, put in these terms, can very
well guide the person who answered in finding no rational way for doing it
another way than what Joseph is implying. Which is, to always act as if you
are the last person and create your own culture and rituals. Seen from this
point of view, Joseph's question pushes an unaware person into the answers
Joseph agrees with, thus a mind-fuck.
Truth, I do not feel any bad vibes from the thread, like I said, I feel it
is a sincere question, and maybe I cannot call it a mind-fuck because there
seems to be no personal agenda behind it. Then again, if it is done right,
there never seems to be one.
I respect you StarrHawke, and I respect Joseph as well, even if you may find
it hard to believe after reading this post. I am not claiming it is a
mind-fuck, I am also not claiming it is one, because this is my view and my
view alone. And that is what I want to get across, that only the view of the
person involved is the prime important one.
It may not be the most appreciated thing I do, but it is my nature, my
Medicine, I get to see both sides and express them. A mind-fuck is not
always for dominating, at least not so very clearly as in the event you
experienced. But when someone is pushed into finding an answer approved upon
by the questioner, well, to be overdramatic, that's like the Inquisition.
I do not know Josephs agenda, and nobody really knows that besides Joseph.
And that is the same for everyone. Just because his answers are right, they
are right in his eyes, just like my cause for writing this is right. Right
for the person involved, not so for anyone else. Manipulation into a right
answer is still manipulation. The answer may not be right for the person who
is being manipulated.
Still, it needed to be asked, it gave a good insight on things, trouble is,
it is in no way the only perspective. And that is what I am trying to get
across.
There is no perspective on things that is more right or wrong than any
other, they are only different. A hundred people may feel it is right, but
the one person that disagrees is not wrong, he is right as well, just as
much as all the people who are responsible for making up their own mind.
Manipulation and mind-fucks tend to make people make up anothers mind.
The thread was Jospehs point of view, and I think it is a good point. That
does not mean I should take his 'bait' and be guided like a sheep into the
answers he believes in.
Maybe my Role is to show people that the age of being Sheep is over. The
choice are available of choosing for yourself what you want to be. And that
is the key, what YOU want to be. Do you want to be a sheep, you have my
blessing. Do you want to be a Lion, you have my blessing. Do you want to be
an Oog, you have my blessing. You'll have my questions too, to shake you a
little and to make sure you have chosen this out of your own free will and
now as much available options as possible.
This is one of those shakings.
I show the possibility that Joseph's thread could be a mind-fuck. It is up
to all of you to see if you see this perspective as well, and take
responsibility for it.
That's the sole reason for the shaking, to see that you are responsible for
yourself, that is the consequence of free will.
And this does not mean that we should let people be mind-fucked, just
because it is their own responsibility. When we know it could be a
mind-fuck, we are responsible to act on that. Not by preventing it from
happening, that would be mind-fucking as well, but by offering the
possibility to the person that he or she may be mind-fucked. Offer it as
opinion, possibility, and let the other make up their own minds about it.
And if you are able, help him make the decision that is based on what is
right and chosen freely.
That's my personal dogma, 'If it is needed, and I am able, than I will do
it.'
Two Snakes
Two Snakes
Joseph B. W. Wilson
skribis:
<clip>
>
>I will explain.
>
>You and Jospeh very strongly believe in finding your own way and absoluteley
>not looking at other cultures for advice. No rituals may be borrowed. This
If that's what you think then obviously you have totally misunderstood
most of what we've written. We have never said that. We have said
that we are opposed to MISAPPROPRIATING (STEALING) from other
cultures. We have never said that if you have LEGITIMATE teachers
from anywhere, other culture or not, that you should not use what you
are taught.
>is your right, and I have learned to appreciate it. It is also an opinion,
>that's why I can appreciate it. Jospeph's question 'What would you do
>if...?' is a sincere question, I respect that. But it is still a mind-fuck.
>(My opinion)
Funny, that wasn't my question though. It was a question I got in
email from someone else. I said that.
<clip>
<shrug>
Joseph B. W. Wilson
http://www.metista.com
Copyright 1999 Joseph B. W. Wilson
Crankyness is not just an act. It's a way of life!
Two Snakes
not work, I will continue a bit more.
That's my personal dogma, 'If it is needed, and I am able, than I will do
it.'
Maybe Tim mind-fucked, maybe not.
Maybe Joseph mind-fucked, maybe not.
My own, personal opinion on these matters is not important for being able to
see and offer both perspectives
I find one thing very usefull in determining a mind-fuck, and I offer it for
scrutiny; whenever a person tries to make you see his or her truth, than it
is a mind-fuck. And a mind-fuck has to stick before it has any effect.
I am sorry for people who had to experience suicide either first-hand or
from the spreaded word. I feel it may serve as lesson for everyone to take
responsibility and act on it. Don't fight fire with fire, offer to throw
water on it. And when the person does not accept, and gut-feeling says it is
ok, wet them anyway. If they want to start another fire, they will do so,
but at least they have a breather to think it through a little bit better.
At least the time is bought for them to see more perspectives, and then
decide on how to go on.
And this is not only my tale, it is my way.
Love and Respect
Crowman TwoSnakes
Two Snakes
Joseph B. W. Wilson wrote in message
<377dabd8...@news.netonecom.net>...
>>You and Jospeh very strongly believe in finding your own way and
absoluteley
>>not looking at other cultures for advice. No rituals may be borrowed. This
>
>If that's what you think then obviously you have totally misunderstood
>most of what we've written. We have never said that. We have said
>that we are opposed to MISAPPROPRIATING (STEALING) from other
>cultures. We have never said that if you have LEGITIMATE teachers
>from anywhere, other culture or not, that you should not use what you
>are taught.
>
point taken, I used the wrong words.
>>is your right, and I have learned to appreciate it. It is also an opinion,
>>that's why I can appreciate it. Jospeph's question 'What would you do
>>if...?' is a sincere question, I respect that. But it is still a
mind-fuck.
>>(My opinion)
>
>Funny, that wasn't my question though. It was a question I got in
>email from someone else. I said that.
>
Well, a question passed remains a question asked. Take responsibility for
your actions.
>
><shrug>
>
>Joseph B. W. Wilson
Gopher
1. Mind Fuck: Using charisma, double-talk, word-twisting, manipulation,
brainwashing, etc., to bring another person to believe something is true
when, without the 'mind fuck', they would have recognized it as false.
To use these methods to cause someone to behave in ways they would find
abhorrent (or ridiculous) under other circumstances. To use these
methods to draw someone into your own delusion. This is especially a
'mind fuck' when the result is beneficial to the perpretator and harmful
to the victim.
2. Thought Provoking: Giving someone particular things to think about
that, if thought upon, may bring about certain realizations and may
change behavior patterns as a result (if the person doing the thinking
recognizes and chooses to act upon those realizations).
What StarrHawke shared about 'George' and what I shared about 'Donald'
were demonstrations of definition #1 ('mind fucking'). Joseph's question
(or rather the question he was asked by his correspondant and that he
passed on to the ng) was a demonstration of definition #2 ('thought
provoking').
It would be a real shame to confuse the two.
Joseph B. W. Wilson
skribis:
<clip>
>
>Well, a question passed remains a question asked. Take responsibility for
>your actions.
>
>
>Love and Respect
>
>Crowman TwoSnakes
>
>
I ALWAYS take responsibility for my actions young man. AND my words.
Endgamer
wrote:
><snip comment by TwoSnakes about theft of cultures>
>If that's what you think then obviously you have totally misunderstood
>most of what we've written. We have never said that. We have said
>that we are opposed to MISAPPROPRIATING (STEALING) from other
>cultures. We have never said that if you have LEGITIMATE teachers
>from anywhere, other culture or not, that you should not use what you
>are taught.
>
I'm intrigued. How would you define the difference, Joseph? If you
practice the same rituals, for the same reasons, honouring the same
spirits, with the same humility and care for what you do, does it
matter who taught you the ritual?
Flora and Eric Floen
I am beginning to suspect that CMTS feels his authority threatened by
Joe's and Starry's presence. That's the only conclusion I can draw.
You (gopher) and Starr shared experiances that were quite legitimate,
and of a cautionary nature. Joes question was short and sweet,
ecouraging a practicioner to think for himself...
Tell me, how is this to come under this definition?
> Definitions:
>
> 1. Mind Fuck: Using charisma, double-talk, word-twisting, manipulation,
> brainwashing, etc., to bring another person to believe something is true
> when, without the 'mind fuck', they would have recognized it as false.
> To use these methods to cause someone to behave in ways they would find
> abhorrent (or ridiculous) under other circumstances. To use these
> methods to draw someone into your own delusion. This is especially a
> 'mind fuck' when the result is beneficial to the perpretator and harmful
> to the victim.
>
I JUST DON'T SEE IT IN JOE'S POST.
However, I recognise the "to use these methods to daw somebody into
thier own delusion" in CMTS's attempts to make me gratefull for being
"Timmed."
So who's the mind fucker?
> 2. Thought Provoking: Giving someone particular things to think about
> that, if thought upon, may bring about certain realizations and may
> change behavior patterns as a result (if the person doing the thinking
> recognizes and chooses to act upon those realizations).
>
> What StarrHawke shared about 'George' and what I shared about 'Donald'
> were demonstrations of definition #1 ('mind fucking'). Joseph's question
> (or rather the question he was asked by his correspondant and that he
> passed on to the ng) was a demonstration of definition #2 ('thought
> provoking').
>
> It would be a real shame to confuse the two.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Gopher
>
Yup Gopher, I'm with you and the Starr-lady. If it's mind-fucking for
Joe, how is some of CMTS's stuff not the same kind of thing?
You can go ahead and explain that, CMTS. I'm listening.
FLORA
(Scratching a little bit, these flame retardent leisure suits are itchy)
StarrHawke
wrote:
>I will not try to diminish the impact the event had on you by merely saying
>thank you for sharing. Because you did more than this.
The effect of *MY* experience on my behavior wasnt the point. The
point was to wake up a few people, yourself included, that the dangers
are REAL. PEOPLE DIE because of these games. People DIE, Snakes. And
for those who think death isnt a big thing, because our spirits don't
die.... Take a look at the impact of that sort of death on a spiritual
level sometime. It ain't pretty or pleasant... it is a literal Hell
--- not Hell as a place of punishment, but Hell as a place separated
fom God, turned from their connections with the Divine, and *unable*
to accept healing. It is as close to a spiritual death as we may
ever know about... because to die, further, is to erase the effects of
our existance from all creation, past present and future.
Oh, no, you wont diminish the point of this story with a simple and
honorable "thank you" or by relating a similiar experience or by
demonstrating an understanding of where I'm coming from. No, you
wouldnt dream of 'diminishing my experience' with this. <dripping
sarcasm>You'll just attempt to undermine the point of sharing it,
with your long winded 'opinion.' And you'll accuse me and Joseph of
doing the same damn thing. My immediate reaction is HOW DARE YOU?
No, Snakes.. I did not mirror Tim, as you suggested in other posts....
nor did he mirror me. And if you think he and I were behaving in the
same way... as you have suggested in other posts as well, then you
were indeed quite successfully "mind-fucked". I do not 'hate' in Tim
what I fear in myself. He and people like him bring tears to my eyes,
because I CAN project to where they are, to what they see, to what
they think they are doing. But I can also see what they are doing in
this physical world, and the effects on others, and the potential
effects down the road.
I dont frankly CARE if 'this is just your opinion". It holds weight
through sheer volumn, if nothing else, and the number of words and
times your opinion is repeated is more than the rest of us can manage
to counter.
Yes, there are always other perspectives. But there are times when
defending the "relative truth" of those other perspectives is
*DANGEROUS*. Maybe not to you, but to others. Move into the mind of
Jeffery Daumer, Snakes. Or Jim Jones or David Koresh. Move into the
mind of George the Guru or the Gopher's abuser. You'll see that
everything makes oh so much sense from within their own minds. Will
you defend their actions, as well?
If you *knew* what Daumer was capable of, would you share your inside
perspective with young men in his neighborhood? Would you tell them to
look for alternative sources for the nasty smells coming from the
house?That maybe he was really a nice, misunderstood boy from a good
family, who really just needed some friends to put their trust in him,
and they should think about it? Would you be one of those who ignored
the complaints to the police?
If you *knew* what Jim Jones was capable of, would you still share
your pespective on how everyone's view was valid, and that he has many
truths to share, and is really touched by god? Would you say "go
ahead, sample the koolaid.... see all perspectives?" Would you tell
them not to listen to the concerns of their families?
<shaking her head>
Yes, I'm reacting, and yes, I'm reacting strongly, and YES I am fully
and totally aware of what I am doing in this letter. You are not the
only one to see from many perspectives, Snakes. And there is one
perspective you seem to continually miss ---
People who are being "worked on" by "false gurus" are already losing
their "free will" for all intents and purposes. They have already had
their discernment and their trust in themselves impaired. They're
knocked off center, again and again.. and not usually flat out told
not to listen to others with discenting opinions, just shown through
faulted logic how those 'others' are false leaders themselves. Just
like Tim did. His actions amounted to one thing.. tearing down anyone
who stood against him, at the same time he insisted no one dared stand
against him. Continually trying to demonstrate that he knew what was
what, that all 'real' discussions on the ng were due to him, and not
due to the difficult struggles the rest of us went through with one
another in the past weeks.... continually building himself up, and
tearing others down....
And along comes Snakes, to repeatedly say... awwww he's not that bad.
Well I got news for you Snakes.. he IS that bad. Maybe not to you..
because you dont happen to be susceptable to these particular tricks,
at this particular point in your life.... but he IS that bad. And even
if he snaps out of it before he seriously damages someone spiritually,
much less physically.... others like him are out there, doing the
exact same things... and some of them WONT snap out of it.
I want you to reconsider the effects of long winded and hypnotic
musings on how danger isnt really danger and how the people giving the
warnings are the equivalent of what they are warning against.-- and a
bald-faced liar is a teacher. (And Tim not only lies, but he
admits it in private emails -- but not in public--- and even in
private he insists it is 'for a purpose' ---- hmmmm )
By themselves, yes, they might shake up a preconception or two, and
that might be helpful... But Snakes, dammit.... there are times that
shaking a perspective is useful, and times it is not. And when people
ares already being mindfucked in a dangerous way, the kind of
"opinions" and "perspectives" you've given here will only keep them
from listening to the people offering the warnings... it wont keep
them from listening to the false gurus.
As for the bit about Joseph and my agenda..... I'll answer that in
another post. Someone might want to keep a fire extinguisher
handy.... hell... make it a fire truck. This Phoenix may just burst
into flames.
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
I
StarrHawke
>That's my personal dogma, 'If it is needed, and I am able, than I will do
>it.'
Who are you to determine what is needed, and by whom, and for what
outcome and purpose?
This same attitude is the essential and dangerous flaw in Tim's
posts, too. An assumption of what is needed, with little or no true
knowledge of the situation. An assumption of what the GOAL is, for
gawds sake.... And an assumption that you are the one to do whatever
it is you've decided needs doing.
Who are you to decide these things? To decide them for those who are
not your people, for those who are not your students, or your family,
or your friends...... for those to whom you will not be held
accountable to, when and if these actions you determined were
"needed" cause problems.
Will you be there to clean up the mess left behind, or will you have
gone on to the next place you think you are "needed" ?
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Prairie Dog
Mind Fucks are great! Mind Love Making is even better! <Whoo Hoo!>
Mind Rape is a crime deserving of a good old fashioned ass kicking and reass
kicking.
If you do not know the difference between them I would suggest you get some
help Two Snakes.
It is the very same thing as saying that making love to ones partner is just
like Rape because there is penitration involved. Time for an Ego Enima there
dude.
<doggy blows out the match and waits for the ego counter attack>
--
Prairie Dog
************************************************************************
WARNING: The mysteries of the universe
are much closer then they appear.
************************************************************************
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/czyfoxhomepage/
pdo...@metista.com
Alison
different). I scratched my head. I questioned why this was being written. I
mean, well, has Joseph ever said what he would do if he were the last magician
on earth? Not on my browser. Have Starr and Joseph been seeking converts?
Again, not on my browser.
They have posted their url for our reference. Their site provides a plethera
of good information. It can help people start down their own path. Is their
way the way for all? No, it is not. However, it IS a starting point, a frame
from which to develop your OWN belief system without taking what is not yours.
Yes, Joseph has his own view on what Shamanism is. Yes, he shares his view
regularly and often on this ng. Yes, Starrhawke has her view on Shamanism, and
that view is shared as well. I have no problem with this. It gives us a point
of reference, a common frame to work with.
Is this view the only view presented here? Not by a long shot. If anybody
lurks for more than 2 weeks, they'll see at least 3-4 definitions of Shamanism
pop up, each with their own mark of distinction.
I see Two Snake's post as an attempt to throw a monkey wrench into the workings
here. Maybe he intended it that way. Maybe not. Either way, I'm sitting here
and I feel that Two Snakes tried to "mind fuck" me. I have no other
explaination.
I have felt this way before. I have been a victom of the same sort of "mind
fuck" that Starr and Flora described. I broke away, but not before I became
badly burned. I had to overcome both doubt and fear of the path I had been
chosen to follow.
From this experience, I have this caution: if someone tells you one truth, it
does not follow that everything they tell you is truth. The only truth is in
your own heart and soul. Two Snakes makes this point, but as I was reading it,
I felt like he was making this point because he had to, then buried it among
all his rhetoric. I also got the impression that because his post was longest,
he felt it should be given more weight.
He also said that he sees many sides to the same question, and it is his duty
to tell all sides. I can appreciate this point of view, however it goes
totally against my way of doing business. I agree it is extremely important to
see all sides of an issue. It is extremely important to weigh each side
against each other. However, the maxim I operate under is this: after all
points of view are seen and all the data weighed, it is YOUR point of view that
needs to be shared. Write your OWN truth, simply, fully, and waste no words.
This way, your message will not get lost in rhetoric or mumbo-jumbo.
Too many words later, I will close.
Blessings to each on your way,
Alison
>From: "Two Snakes"
---------<clip>----------------
>It may not be the most appreciated thing I do, but it is my nature, my
>Medicine, I get to see both sides and express them. A mind-fuck is not
>always for dominating, at least not so very clearly as in the event you
>experienced. But when someone is pushed into finding an answer approved
>upon
>by the questioner, well, to be overdramatic, that's like the Inquisition.
>I do not know Josephs agenda, and nobody really knows that besides Joseph.
>And that is the same for everyone. Just because his answers are right, they
>are right in his eyes, just like my cause for writing this is right. Right
>for the person involved, not so for anyone else. Manipulation into a right
>answer is still manipulation. The answer may not be right for the person
>who
>is being manipulated.
>Still, it needed to be asked, it gave a good insight on things, trouble
>is,
>it is in no way the only perspective. And that is what I am trying to get
>across.
-----------<clip>---------------
>Maybe my Role is to show people that the age of being Sheep is over. The
>choice are available of choosing for yourself what you want to be. And that
>is the key, what YOU want to be. Do you want to be a sheep, you have my
>blessing. Do you want to be a Lion, you have my blessing. Do you want to
>be
>an Oog, you have my blessing. You'll have my questions too, to shake you
>a
>little and to make sure you have chosen this out of your own free will and
>now as much available options as possible.
>This is one of those shakings.
>I show the possibility that Joseph's thread could be a mind-fuck. It is
>up
>to all of you to see if you see this perspective as well, and take
>responsibility for it.
-------------<clip>-------------
yona...@my-deja.com
i ask you to see in your heart to take what you know about this person
(piece of shit), and help her parents file a law-suit againest him.
not for the money but to stop people like him. have them give the money
to hungary children in our world.
melanie carroll
contrary opinion easily lead!
sheep are stobborn creatures and though wooly are not really as stoopud as
people think they are, they just operate in a different manner than other
animals. sure sheep follow along but only if they want. why do you think
shepherds need bloody crooks and snappy dogs to bark and snap at the sheep?
sheep actually have little fear, thats what makes them seem stoopid, they
dont really know when to avoid a situation and so they can be brave if you
watch! and yes you can herd sheep but you cant actually pen them very well,
they have a real annoying habit of getting out of the pen!
so perhaps the age of sheep is not over but is just coming into being. this
little muttonhead is not afraid to be a sheep, but she sure doesnt follow
unless she wants to go, oh yeah and she ignores the dog worriers too. you
see she is a muttonhead and doesnt know when to fear and when to back off
but she knows her own mind and that is what the sheep knows is important,
that they know!
love and laughter
melanie muttonhead.
Two Snakes <Jer...@bertus.com> wrote in message
news:7li8te$m3s$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> --damm, it got sent too soon, this will be the entire tale--
>
>
> I will not try to diminish the impact the event had on you by merely
saying
> thank you for sharing. Because you did more than this.
>
> I haven't met anyone who could mind-fuck me, but I have known some who
> tried. I haven't tried to mind-fuck anybody, but I know I am capable of
> doing so, I think that's partly why I can see through most of those
things.
> It's part of the two snakes thing, I can see almost every side of things,
> thus a mind-fuck is something I'll have explored long before I tend to
> react. You are right, and thank you for reminding me, not all people can
do
> this, I sometimes forget.
> But mind-fucks can work very subtle as well, and not all are harmfull. Do
> not take it the wrong way, I mean this only to illustrate what I am trying
> to show. Joseph is mind-fucking as well.
>
> ...
>
> I will explain.
>
> You and Jospeh very strongly believe in finding your own way and
absoluteley
> not looking at other cultures for advice. No rituals may be borrowed. This
> is your right, and I have learned to appreciate it. It is also an opinion,
> that's why I can appreciate it. Jospeph's question 'What would you do
> if...?' is a sincere question, I respect that. But it is still a
mind-fuck.
> (My opinion)
> The thread leads to the thought process you are trying to get across, if
you
> were the only one to discover magic, you would have to do it on your own.
> Which is precisely your point. The question, put in these terms, can very
> well guide the person who answered in finding no rational way for doing it
> another way than what Joseph is implying. Which is, to always act as if
you
> are the last person and create your own culture and rituals. Seen from
this
> point of view, Joseph's question pushes an unaware person into the answers
> Joseph agrees with, thus a mind-fuck.
>
> Truth, I do not feel any bad vibes from the thread, like I said, I feel it
> is a sincere question, and maybe I cannot call it a mind-fuck because
there
> seems to be no personal agenda behind it. Then again, if it is done right,
> there never seems to be one.
> I respect you StarrHawke, and I respect Joseph as well, even if you may
find
> it hard to believe after reading this post. I am not claiming it is a
> mind-fuck, I am also not claiming it is one, because this is my view and
my
> view alone. And that is what I want to get across, that only the view of
the
> person involved is the prime important one.
> It may not be the most appreciated thing I do, but it is my nature, my
> Medicine, I get to see both sides and express them. A mind-fuck is not
> always for dominating, at least not so very clearly as in the event you
> experienced. But when someone is pushed into finding an answer approved
upon
> by the questioner, well, to be overdramatic, that's like the Inquisition.
> I do not know Josephs agenda, and nobody really knows that besides Joseph.
> And that is the same for everyone. Just because his answers are right,
they
> are right in his eyes, just like my cause for writing this is right. Right
> for the person involved, not so for anyone else. Manipulation into a right
> answer is still manipulation. The answer may not be right for the person
who
> is being manipulated.
> Still, it needed to be asked, it gave a good insight on things, trouble
is,
> it is in no way the only perspective. And that is what I am trying to get
> across.
> There is no perspective on things that is more right or wrong than any
> other, they are only different. A hundred people may feel it is right, but
> the one person that disagrees is not wrong, he is right as well, just as
> much as all the people who are responsible for making up their own mind.
> Manipulation and mind-fucks tend to make people make up anothers mind.
> The thread was Jospehs point of view, and I think it is a good point. That
> does not mean I should take his 'bait' and be guided like a sheep into
the
> answers he believes in.
>
> Maybe my Role is to show people that the age of being Sheep is over. The
> choice are available of choosing for yourself what you want to be. And
that
> is the key, what YOU want to be. Do you want to be a sheep, you have my
> blessing. Do you want to be a Lion, you have my blessing. Do you want to
be
> an Oog, you have my blessing. You'll have my questions too, to shake you a
> little and to make sure you have chosen this out of your own free will and
> now as much available options as possible.
> This is one of those shakings.
> I show the possibility that Joseph's thread could be a mind-fuck. It is up
> to all of you to see if you see this perspective as well, and take
> responsibility for it.
>
Joseph B. W. Wilson
skribis:
<snip>
>
>I'm intrigued. How would you define the difference, Joseph? If you
>practice the same rituals, for the same reasons, honouring the same
>spirits, with the same humility and care for what you do, does it
>matter who taught you the ritual?
>
>
That's an excellent question Endgamer. I've been sitting here trying
to word my answer in a way that will be easily understood by everyone.
And that is a core part of the problem. We here on this newsgroup
obviously have a difficult time communicating our meanings using a
shared language and roughly similar cultural background.
Does it matter who taught you the ritual? Yes, very much. Let me
see if I can describe some examples of why.
I've already tried to point out some of the differences between some
North American Indian concepts and those that we are personally
familiar with. I'm particularly ill equipped to do this because I'm
not an Indian, though through the years I have gained some kind of a
rough understanding which has been confirmed by some of my friends.
It's far from perfect.
I posted some time ago about some of the difficulties of language
differences and concepts. There are some multi-lingual people here
and they should all be able to confirm that it is not possible to
literally translate most thoughts from one language to another, even
related languages. Often what needs to be done is to reword the
thought to make it fit into the cultural context of the other
language. This is particularly the case with colloquialisms which
often have no similar meaning in a different language.
For example, here's an illustration from two very similar languages -
American and English. I was hunting for a house or an apartment to
rent in late 1969. A nice elderly landlady showed me the one she had
available, and then said kindly - "Everyone's a bit queer this winter,
but not to worry, there are plenty of fagots at the rear." Amusing,
eh? But certainly different conceptions between her language and
mine!
Now we have some pretty set ideas ourselves about what the words, God,
Goddess, Gods, Spirits, and so forth mean. The problem is that when
you are talking to a knowledgable person from, say, an Anashabi
community they have no direct correlation. Whites often use the words
"Great Spirit" thinking it's interchangeable with the word "God" but
it just ain't so. They simply are not the same concept.
Since we, who read and speak the same language have difficulty in
communicating with each other you should be able to see that the
communication difficulty is going to be tremendously more between two
people who are not native speakers of the first language. Here in the
United States most people don't bother to learn a second language in
the arrogant opinion that everyone should learn theirs.
So when someone goes to an Indian elder wanting to be taught, what is
the situation? First they do not know the culture so they don't have
the reference points to understand what that elder says. Secondly,
that elder probably speaks English as a second language and therefore
would have to translate concepts from his culture to a language that
has no corresponding words. Tough job. The legitimate ones don't do
that. They say, ok, part of the learning is to learn our culture and
language otherwise you won't understand what we're talking about.
Now, to the ritual/ceremony part of this. Ceremonies are rooted in a
culture and speak to the needs of the people. In any ceremony,
whether it be one of the numerous Indian cultures ones, or Buddhist
ones, or Shinto ones, or Roman Catholic ones, or whatever there are
not just words and motions, but also meanings behind those that are
often not communicated, or have some special meaning, or magic,
depending upon who is doing it.
So you see, someone who is NOT a legitimate teacher will not know
those things. He or she will not have learned them so they couldn't
know them. What they might be able to do is to show you words, and
movements, and actions, which someone might be able to mimic. And it's
likely that the words simply will not be understood. How can one
possibly honor the same spirits when it's not even known which spirits
are a part of the ceremony?
But mimicking something is not the same as someone actually performing
it. If I were to get a book that have the motions and words of a
Roman Catholic High Mass and then to go through those motions, it
wouldn't be doing a real ritual. Only an ordained priest can do that.
However it would be doing a sacrilege in the eyes of the church,
especially since I'm not even a Roman Catholic.
Did that help?
sunfavor
Endgamer wrote:
>On 2 Jul 1999 07:21:07 -0500, be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson)
>wrote:
>
>><snip comment by TwoSnakes about theft of cultures>
>
>>If that's what you think then obviously you have totally misunderstood
>>most of what we've written. We have never said that. We have said
>>that we are opposed to MISAPPROPRIATING (STEALING) from other
>>cultures. We have never said that if you have LEGITIMATE teachers
>>from anywhere, other culture or not, that you should not use what you
>>are taught.
>
>practice the same rituals, for the same reasons, honouring the same
>spirits, with the same humility and care for what you do, does it
>matter who taught you the ritual?
Who makes that call? You've listed a set of circumstances which sit at the
root of the problem, the fact that outsiders do not have the same reasons,
or the same humility and care, for the simple reason that they are outsiders
in foreign territory. Not to say it never happens, it surely does, but
whose judgement in this regard is ultimately more relevant, that of the
native members, or that of the outsider? If a people decide that you do
indeed meet those standards (for lack of a better word) and allow you to
participate, that is a gift. If you take it upon yourself to decide these
things and simply take what you want (disfiguring and misrepresenting it in
the process), that is theft.
Two Snakes
to learn to distinguish between the two? It took me quite a long time.
Trouble is, as StarrHawke experienced, there are people who do not yet can
tell the difference.
You know, show. I know, I show. Teach, share, offer.
The only thing in common with rape and making love, as you so aptly pointed
out, is penetration. And luckily many people can tell the difference between
rape and making love. I do know some people though, who didn't know.
Well, was this the ego counter attack you expected?
Two Snakes
to StarrHawke
to Joseph
to Flora
to Gopher
to Alison
to Melanie.
and to those who are to follow.
I apologize for the words that were unthoughtfull and hurtfull. I am sorry
for the reactions I provoked, I regret having crossed the line.
If too many words disguise, than I will use less. If saying that it is my
opinion more than once is too much, I will say it only this time more.
I will not put up defences, I have gone too far.
Or in other words, words I'm feeling right now:
Ah man, I screwed up big time.
I am not trying to diminish anyones feelings or experiences or what they
share. I know people can die, and I know it isn't fun. I am sorry if I lost
that with so many words. I fucked up.
I thought Starrhawke was not waiting on 'thank you for sharing's, I did not
intent to make anyone feel gratefull to be 'Timmed', I do not think sheep
are dumb, and I did not try to hypnotize with repetetive words.
I did not feel threatened in my authority by StarrHawke and Joseph, they
have been here much longer than I have, and I did not know I had authority
here.
If I had, then I will lay it down, if I still are with it.
But I will stand for what I have come to believe in:
"Authority is not something someone else has, it is something you have
freely and irresponsibly given away."
I still feel everybody has free will, and that we all have responsibility
for our own actions and words. If this means I am no longer tolerated here,
than I will take my responsibility for this. I still feel I spoke from my
heart, but expressed it poorly.
I cannot find any other way to be more open than this, and I can offer
nothing else than this.
You all be the judge if you want, I won't
PinDrop
wrote:
If you gave the money to condom manufacturers and
towards the promotion of enlightened educators there
would not be any suffering of hungry children ever
again. Sometimes a bandage (in this case, feeding those
who have yet to learn to not over-breed) only covers up
a festering wound that's never healed nor will heal
until exposed to the air and light. Just like ripping
off an old bandage this post will also hurt those who
want to keep it.
Personally, I don't need to know if there are hungry
children so I might cherish the food on my own plate.
Others do, so they continue to support the existence of
them. I do not, cannot, and will not benefit off the
misfortunes of others. (Contrary to the majority of
teachers, doctors, modern careers, and religions.)
Alison
I accept your apology. You have much to offer this ng. Your contributions are
respected, and you offer much of yourself. I, for one, would hate for that to
stop.
I look forward to reading you in the future.
Blessingst to you on your way,
Alison
StarrHawke
>thank for sharing this with us.
You're welcome. It's not my favorite story, but its important.
>i ask you to see in your heart to take what you know about this person
>(piece of shit), and help her parents file a law-suit againest him.
>not for the money but to stop people like him. have them give the money
>to hungary children in our world.
<smile> I wish it had been possible to do that. But even if a crime
could be determined, building a case would rely almost completely on
"Violets" testimony, and even if she were willing (keep in mind, she
was part of the problem, too) her testimony cant be considered
reliable. She'd already lied to everyone about her very identity.
It *was* taken care of in the Otherworlds. <soft smile>
StarrHawke
Prairie Dog
Two Snakes <Two.S...@kabelfoon.nl> wrote in message
news:7ljiku$1kc$1...@news.kabelfoon.nl...
Prairiedog replies:
I can only speak for myself here.
(((((Two Snakes))))) : "Here,,, have a smore, we need our energy to keep
this silly fire burning until Maqua comes back".
Blessings.
[:Kent-Erik:]
<377d4230...@news.netonecom.net>...
>>practice the same rituals, for the same reasons, honouring the same
>>spirits, with the same humility and care for what you do, does it
>>matter who taught you the ritual?
>>
>to word my answer in a way that will be easily understood by everyone.
>And that is a core part of the problem. We here on this newsgroup
>obviously have a difficult time communicating our meanings using a
>shared language and roughly similar cultural background.
>
>Does it matter who taught you the ritual? Yes, very much. Let me
>see if I can describe some examples of why.
>
>differences and concepts. There are some multi-lingual people here
>and they should all be able to confirm that it is not possible to
>literally translate most thoughts from one language to another, even
>related languages. Often what needs to be done is to reword the
>thought to make it fit into the cultural context of the other
>language. This is particularly the case with colloquialisms which
>often have no similar meaning in a different language.
As I am one of those who belong to those that use English as a second
language i agree totaly to what you describe in your post.
My "problem" is that I first have to interpret the post into swedish,
meaning something that might be understandable for me, since many labels
have little or no meaning in Swedish. Then if I want to post an answer
or make a statement, I go through the same process again, first write
down my thoughts in Swedish, and then try to translate them into, for
you, understandable English.
Sometimes I succeed, and sometimes I don't. There are lots of thoughts
and suggestions I have not posted, because of the fact that I have been
unable to translate them properly, and thought it better to keep quiet.
The understanding of what's been posted by someone comes from
recognizing how the poster thinks, and try to relate to this. this
description could easily be called "allowing myself to be mind-fucked".
To be real succesful in my understanding of the post, I have to read
more than just one post from that person.
This is something similar to how I do my thing, when helping others. I
must talk to the person/animal, or in another way get to know him/her
first to be able to help/answer questions. It might also be "dangerous"
if I forget to keep my own "identity" protected/separated from what I am
doing, merely because of the possibilty of missunderstanding the
situation.
...Kent-Erik
[:Kent-Erik:]
>My apologies, <to several people and an explanation snipped for brevity
only>
>But I will stand for what I have come to believe in:
>"Authority is not something someone else has, it is something you have
>freely and irresponsibly given away."
>I still feel everybody has free will, and that we all have
responsibility
>for our own actions and words. If this means I am no longer tolerated
>here, than I will take my responsibility for this. I still feel I spoke
from
>my heart, but expressed it poorly.
>I cannot find any other way to be more open than this, and I can offer
>nothing else than this.
>
>You all be the judge if you want, I won't
To CMTS...
I have been sitting here quietly behind my monitor and followed your
posts. As I mentioned earlier in another thread, to many words sometimes
blurres my own thought-process during reading, much also beacuse I have
to interpret them into my own language to fully understand. During
translation I may get lost and miss the intention of the post itself.
'cause of this. I don't think that anyone here is truly judging you, and
as far as I am concerned, no one in this NG needs approval or get grades
for our posts. We are free to express our thoughts. the way the come to
us as long as we can keep a fairly civil tone of voice... in the end all
we can gain is respect for speaking our peace without lieing or
deceitful behavoiur, just being honest in our opinions, and be ready to
listen to arguments.
To All.....
To try to honor your many thoughts, I will try to describe how I try to
see through the concept of another persons preaching of dogma, and how I
had to learn it so I would have a fair chance of not becoming one
myself. As before I turn to the teachings I had from my grandparents
before they released me to do my own tarotreadings un-supervised.
It doesn't contradict anything that's been posted really, it is merely
my point of view... It is something I use when someone get the Devil in
their tarotreading and it gives a starter for further interpretation...
Ahem... I would like to express it like this. The XV.Devil's card is one
of the few cards in the tarot that gives us pure negative feelings, the
other is XIII.Death. Both of them represents a form of illusion,
imaginary antipoles to different concepts, aswell as forces that needs
to be refuted. It is stange that we are so afraid of this figure - after
all we're the ones that have created him to begin with. He can only
excist with our help.
The aspects of the human conscius that are easiest denied are the "dark"
ones. One might even say that aspects being surpressed becomes the
"dark". They will continue to exist as a force in our subconscius, and
will continue to grow more evil and destructive in proportion to the
degree of surpression. The power of the Devil will increase the more we
deny him: our christian dogma denies him.
We live in a perfectionistic society under extremely peaked demands on
ourselves. If we don't behave "perfect" we experience guilt. We find it
natural to identify ourselves as being "good", but accordingly the need
for scapegoats increases. This problem emerge because we are separating
ourselves from the "dark", instead of realizing the fact that the
interplay between light and dark is as natural as the connection between
day and night. The existence of one without the other would be
impossible.
To admit our dark sides does not imply that we have to or shall
outlive/tolerate outrage, cruelty or violence without restraint. Instead
it is important to realize that when we accept our dark sides an enormus
amount of damned up energies will be emancipated. This power is at the
time being expressed as physical/material in nature, but can be
transformed to a higher level of spiritual, creative force by using
different techniques as i.e. yoga, meditation or tantraism.
The physical and spiritual levels has to be connected so that energies
can flow freely. But our attention can and will be focused towards one
or the other at times. Shear denial of one or the other is "the work of
the Devil". For one side to grow, the other has to develop. Compare this
statement with a growing tree; for the foliage to grow big and strong
the spirit, our higher conscius ) the roots ( physical level, our
materialistic urges ) also has to develop and transform.
The theme of XV.Devil is developing our free will, which we have been
made aware of earlier. There's an obvious connection between sin and
freedom, but also between sin and development. The conditions of
knowledge are nonpartial to good or evil.
It's interesting that this cards comes so late in our chain of
development. Why haven't we meet him earlier? Probably because we
haven't been mature enough. To be able to identify oneself with ones
higher conscious seems to be necessary to be able to face evil and to
see its origin - within ourselves. By facing evil and concuer it we
develop further, and creative force is produced as a result. Each and
one of us has to got to know our own "personal devil". The day when we
humans has learned to face evil and transform it to creative energy, the
day when we no longer let
shortsighteness, lust for power or greed control our relation to Mother
Earth, that day evil will be exstinct ( in its present form ).
as always ... Kent-Erik
Endgamer
wrote:
>
>Endgamer wrote:
>>On 2 Jul 1999 07:21:07 -0500, be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson)
>>wrote:
>>
>>><snip comment by TwoSnakes about theft of cultures>
>>
>>>If that's what you think then obviously you have totally misunderstood
>>>most of what we've written. We have never said that. We have said
>>>that we are opposed to MISAPPROPRIATING (STEALING) from other
>>>cultures. We have never said that if you have LEGITIMATE teachers
>>>from anywhere, other culture or not, that you should not use what you
>>>are taught.
>>
>>I'm intrigued. How would you define the difference, Joseph? If you
>>practice the same rituals, for the same reasons, honouring the same
>>spirits, with the same humility and care for what you do, does it
>>matter who taught you the ritual?
>
>
>Who makes that call? You've listed a set of circumstances which sit at the
>root of the problem, the fact that outsiders do not have the same reasons,
>or the same humility and care, for the simple reason that they are outsiders
>in foreign territory. Not to say it never happens, it surely does, but
>whose judgement in this regard is ultimately more relevant, that of the
>native members, or that of the outsider? If a people decide that you do
>indeed meet those standards (for lack of a better word) and allow you to
>participate, that is a gift. If you take it upon yourself to decide these
>things and simply take what you want (disfiguring and misrepresenting it in
>the process), that is theft.
True, but as you say, it does happen. I'm not arguing with Joseph
here, I have no involvement on either side of the line - I am not a
native American, and I create my own rituals - I never use anything
other than my own words, and (at this stage at any rate) I learn
entirely from my own experience and experimentation. I was just trying
to point out that although many people do disfigure and genuinely
steal ritual and practice from native cultures, it is possible to
learn a ritual without the teaching of a "genuine" NA or whatever, to
have a genuine care in your heart for what you're doing, and to use
that ritual in the way it was intended.
melanie carroll
man no need to apologise to this little muttonhead, i was only pointing out
how things can be other than they seem and how we should not fall intot he
trap of generalizations and falling back on cliches when we have no real
experience to base upon.
to be fair it was not a real serious post. sorry if you took it too much to
heart or it came over that way.
love and laughter to you two snakes.
melanie
> "Authority is not something someone else has, it is something you have
> freely and irresponsibly given away."
> I still feel everybody has free will, and that we all have responsibility
> for our own actions and words. If this means I am no longer tolerated
here,
> than I will take my responsibility for this. I still feel I spoke from my
> heart, but expressed it poorly.
> I cannot find any other way to be more open than this, and I can offer
> nothing else than this.
>
> You all be the judge if you want, I won't
>
Two Snakes
StarrHawke heeft geschreven in bericht
<377ce6e2....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
StarrHawke, I am replying this, from my point of view. And I'll keep it as
short as I know how.
>Oh, no, you wont diminish the point of this story with a simple and
>honorable "thank you" or by relating a similiar experience or by
>demonstrating an understanding of where I'm coming from. No, you
>wouldnt dream of 'diminishing my experience' with this. <dripping
>sarcasm>You'll just attempt to undermine the point of sharing it,
>with your long winded 'opinion.' And you'll accuse me and Joseph of
>doing the same damn thing. My immediate reaction is HOW DARE YOU?
>
I did not want to relate a similar experience, because I was reminded by
those experience that relate to yours. I have been kicked at when someone
told a tale like that and I replied with a mere 'thank you for sharing',
they accused me of not caring. I have been kicked at when I replied with one
of my own tales, because I was accused of trying to diminish their
experience. I tried saying nothing one time, the person felt disrespected
and just left.
Truth is, I do not know how to respond in a way the other can deal with at
the time.
Also, at the time I wrote this, and it is still going on, I am dealing with
my (ex)girlfriend who either is as happy as she knows how, or is ready to
take the dive, or more blatantly, kill herself.
I know death Starr, and I know the death you described as well, in fact,
that's were I am coming from. You see, I have been and sometimes still are,
very close to commit suicide. It is something that will not go away, and I
just have to accept that. it is part of me, and I can use it. It is also one
of my greatest strengths, it is my Medicine.
What I did not want was to tell a sorry tale to invoke pity. I dislike being
pitied, because I dislike pitying myself, it saps my strength. I am not
implying you did, but I am saying I have done it in my time, and it did not
feel right.
With the danger of writing too much, I shall tell a little. I saw almost
everyone I knew as guru, everyone knew more, was better, was wiser, and I
wanted to be accepted. I played roles and parts you wouldn't believe, i was
an actor who had come to live his own mask. But masks aren't that alive,
neither was I. It slipped several times and I freaked. I sought out a bridge
and contemplated jumping.
That's were the thoughts crept in.
I had two rules for jumping:
- I would not jump when I was down, I did not want to have the last moments
of life depressed, I did not want to take that with me.
- When I would jump, I'd dunk my past life first, and lose all ties with
everyone else, so that I would be free to decide for myself what I wanted
and wanted to be.
I dunked my old skin quite some times.
But that was my initiation, that was literally my death. Every night I
prayed to be dead the next morning, every morning I awoke, a little bit more
dead. Untill I one day woke, totally dead, yet so very much alive, more
alive than anything I ever knew. You see, that morning I took complete and
sole responsibility for my own actions. No more roles, no more acts. I took
my life into my own hands the moment I decided to take my life away, but
only realized it that morning.
That morning I was born and started to live and became what I am now.
Nothing special about that, I wanted to go splash, but opened my eyes
because of it.
And that's the Medicine I mean. I realized that if a person can choose to
end his or her own life, he or she can choose anything during that life, and
is responsible for it.
And that's the hard part.
My (ex) will have to choose for herself what she wants to do. If she wants
to jump I cannot stop her, I have no right or I do not want to have it. I am
living in a way that we all are responsible for our own actions. That means
if she wants to die, I cannot stop her.
But, and this is were the misunderstandings took shape, I think, it also
means that I have responsibility to do whatever I can to make sure she knows
what she is doing.
Example, and no symbolism. She thought her life was shit, nothing went
right, everybody was against her and she had screwed up big time. That was a
moment in which she wanted to jump, she had even planned the whole thing.
she had read herbal books on what plants are poisoneous, she even had them
at home. In the morning she would make tea out of it and give it to her kid
and herself.
And then, in your words, 'Snakes come along...'. I had felt something wrong
with her and poked my nose around. If I hadn't been such a bastard at the
time, she would never have broke her shell and told me her plans. I wouldn't
be dealing with an (ex)girlfriend, I would have been dealing with a dead
lover.
And if what I did was mindfucking, than so be it. What I did was not only
tell her she made incorrect assuptions about her life, by telling how things
were in reality and weren't as screwed up as she thought. I did not only
show it to her by pointing to it. I let her find out for herself, by
stabbing and biting, by making it real enough for her, by confronting her
with the consequences of her death, so that she had a new perspective on
things. And from that she could decide again.
She's still alive to this day, so am I, but both of us are still with the
wounds that lead to this all, and this is the way I deal with it, because
the wounds are healing.
And that is my responsibility, those are my actions based on who I am, what
I know and what I learn from others, Spirit, spirits, you, whoever. If she
wants to jump, she is free to do so, that's free will. But if I want to
interfere because I feel it is needed (I'll come to that), it is my choice
and my responsibility to act on that.
You have the same thing. You have seen those people who mindfuck, you know
of the dangers, you know how to recognize them and know how they work on
others.
It is your responsibility to act on it,
But, and this is from me, you have no right to control their own free will.
If they decide to ignore your warnings and rightfull and good advice, it is
their choice, their free will.
I have seen people in sanitariums who are like that, in both ways. Some of
my friends work there. Lock a person up with a deathwish, the first chance
they get they will commit suicide. let them out, talk to them, have them
find out why they want to do it and offer them the chances to find other
ways, that is the way that makes these people healed, or at least healing,
in a way that is lasting.
It is damned hard to do this right, and sometimes you do have to lock
someone up for a while. But tell me, truth, if somebody has a deathwish,
because his life is really shit (which means you agree with their view), how
can you condone the fact that that person rots away in a cell, without
dignity, without the right to do what is his right, acting on his own free
will?
You mentioned serial-killers. I would never defend them, and this is hard to
understand for some, but they have the right to be so.
But this is also what I believe in:
'the right to swing your arms end at my nose'.
That means that if you make it your business to see to it that that person
causes no harm to others, than that is your right and you have
responsibility for that. Another might say that they want to work with that
serial-killer, to help him make other, more benign choices.
I mean, and I have deleted a long tale already but promised to keep it
short.
Nobody ever has the right to go against the right of any other.
But sometimes it has to be done, in order to protect the rights of others.
Kill the killer, murder the rapist, unhand the thief.
But, be honest about it. If a person becomes a killer, it is for a reason. I
am not saying that this reason is an excuse, but a fact. It does not condone
his actions, it does not help in alleviating the pain of the victims. But
what it can do, is to help learn how to stop it from occuring again.
Untill that time, we need people like you Starr, to help deal with the
things that are occuring right now.
And untill that time, we need people who snake, to help remember the fact,
that nobody has the right to go against the right of another. And that is
both for people who do 'good' as well as people who do 'bad'.
Love and Respect
Crowman TwoSnakes
>No, Snakes.. I did not mirror Tim, as you suggested in other posts....
Two Snakes
first post, but thank you for sharing. And thanks for not holding it against
me (hmm, after you flamed me with it ;))
Two Snakes
Joseph B. W. Wilson heeft geschreven in bericht
<377d4230...@news.netonecom.net>...
<clip>
>Now we have some pretty set ideas ourselves about what the words, God,
>Goddess, Gods, Spirits, and so forth mean. The problem is that when
>you are talking to a knowledgable person from, say, an Anashabi
>community they have no direct correlation. Whites often use the words
>"Great Spirit" thinking it's interchangeable with the word "God" but
>it just ain't so. They simply are not the same concept.
>
But that does raise another question. Yes, we have, or some may have, a
pretty set idea about those words. Question is, are those ideas correct?
We see what we can see, and when whites see 'God' we are inclined to see the
age old white bearded man. I do not know what reds see when they see 'Great
Spirit', but I do think the same thing applies.
Is God a different enity than Great Spirit, or do only the faces differ?
When we say that God is All, and that the Great Spirit is All, aren't we
just using two names for the same thing?
The Anashabi may have not a direct correlation to the words, but it is my
guess that they do have words for the same concepts, the same beings, we
name God, or goddess and so forth.
I mean, I see the Goddess as the spirit of Earth and the Great Spirit as the
spirit of all existing things. That means that the Goddess is also part of
Spirit, and when I pray to the Goddess, I am also praying to Spirit. It's
just a door that is right for me to use.
I think it's too easy to claim difference by the superficial differences
like names and appearances. I don't know God personally, but I think that
when you know God, as what he really is, you will also know what the Great
Spirit is.
Some pray to Nature, which in my view is another 'door' to the Earth
Goddess. it all depends who they are praying to, and how, which defines the
name and face.
But the All is still All, including all those many faces.
>But mimicking something is not the same as someone actually performing
>it. If I were to get a book that have the motions and words of a
>Roman Catholic High Mass and then to go through those motions, it
>wouldn't be doing a real ritual. Only an ordained priest can do that.
>However it would be doing a sacrilege in the eyes of the church,
>especially since I'm not even a Roman Catholic.
>
>Did that help?
>
>Joseph B. W. Wilson
>http://www.metista.com
>Copyright 1999 Joseph B. W. Wilson
>
>Crankyness is not just an act. It's a way of life!
>
In the eyes of the church you would indeed be a heretic, but what about in
your own eyes?
The general concept here on this NG and for most Pagans, the church and
Christianity is a Bad Thing. And I am asking a sincere question because I am
curious, how come that what the Indians are doing is not part of a Bad
Thing? For them it is also sacrilege, just like the Roman Catholic priest
would see it.
But if the Church does Bad Things, how can you compare, and I am again
assuming you do, the church with the religion of the Native Americans? They
seem to me like totally different things, at least superficially.
Two Snakes
StarrHawke heeft geschreven in bericht
Some time ago I was on holiday in Egypt. I will withdraw my statement that I
have not been mind-fucked, I have been over there. Egyptians are almost born
with those capabilities. Not a good thing, not a bad thing, for them it is a
means to conduct business with unwary tourists like myself. And if you'all
really would like to know this little discrace, I bought three bottles of
perfume to rub on my chakra points from a guy who was the Son of Amon. And
up to this very day, I still am not sure wheter the guy really had some
'magic' or that he did a real good number on me.
But that's off-topic.
I was in my hotel room, having a particular bad time, depression, It always
seems to boil down to that. Well, in my moment of utter down, I prayed, that
if I could take over just a tiny bit of all the worlds bad things, and then
kill myself and take it away, I would jump out of the window right then and
there.
My prayer got answered.
'You want to die to do good. Are you strong enough to live and do good?'
I did not have a good definition of good and bad at the time, but did have
an idea who was answering my prayer, and I trust Her ways.
Well, I answered yes, and decided to live to do good. Next thing was
learning about good and bad.
That dogma of mine was a reply to another question I was asked after a
prayer.
The 'needed' factor consists of several things. Most prominently is when I
am asked to do somehting and which checks ok with my own conscience. But it
can also be something I see 'limping' and again checks ok with my
conscience.
It does not imply a goal, simply because having goals does not work for me.
If I do anything 'shamanistic' or in a less matter, normal, with a certain
goal, I am focussing more on the outcome and not on what I am doing. This
means I screw up.
Example I.
The world's hungry, this needs to be remedied. But I have now idea how to
effectively do this, so I am not able to.
Example II.
A person on the train. I feel she is almost crying and wants to let it out
by talking about it. Am I able to listen? Yes. So I go over to her and
mumble a little bit (hey, I'm shy, so sue me), and ask her if I can do
anything for her.
Example III.
I hear a statement I am not totally in disagreement with, but can very
clearly see some 'weak points'. Should I feel the need, checked ok with my
conscience, and I know a thing or two to comment, than I will speak up.
It is not a duty in itself. I feel I have the 'duty' to be true and honest
with myself. And if that means that I can get flamed, so be it.
I overstepped the line this time, and I am sorry for that.
I hope this cleared up what I mean with 'the need', and if not, well, we can
always talk about it, right?
Two Snakes
has anybody said to you today that you are a really wise man?
a) yes. Than they were right
b.) no. Than they will.
You are indeed.
Two Snakes
Flora and Eric Floen heeft geschreven in bericht
<377EAC...@earthlink.net>...
>[:Kent-Erik:] wrote:
>>
>> Two Snakes skrev i meddelandet <7ljiku$1kc$1...@news.kabelfoon.nl>...
>> >My apologies, <to several people and an explanation snipped for brevity
>> only>
>
>To CMTS, first:
>Apology accepted. I expect you to tell me when you don't like what I
>say. You can say what you like. I will do the same for you assuming you
>can take it. I respect you enough to generally assume that you can.
>
>
And I respect you as well, and I can take the heat, but sometimes my own
dark side comes scraming back into my face, 'oh shit, people don't like me
no more, what did I do wrong?'. And another one what lead to this, 'people
expect me to do this, I should do it.'.
No matter who the people were or are, it all comes down to me. Do I need to
be liked? No, and it would interfere with the things I am saying or want to
say as well.
Do I need to follow intstructions? No, only the one my conscience allows and
supports; be true.
That doesn't mean words cannot falter and have another meaning that I did
not see. I still feel it needed to be said, but I could have used other
words and in another way, another time as well.
Ah well.
But why dislike the 'Tower'? I can understand people don't generally like
Death and The Devil, I happen to like Death as well as the Tower.
Death clears the way for new things to happen, and stimulates the drive to
fix the things you wanted to fix all along, but always put on the side. It
prompts you to redefine your priorities.
And the Tower, ah, sweet crackling. I compare it to the growing of a snake
which needs to shed its skin because of it. And since snake is often a
bringer of wisdom, it means that you have learned enough to rip through old
skin which act as restraint and barrier.
But then again, I am one of those that say, 'if it didn't hurt, it didn't
heal'. Funny thing though, people say my healings are very gentle. Healings
by myself for myself can hurt like hell though, I mean, you try having an
elephant step on your guts for half an hour with full weight, to squeeze
some bad stuff out, and then pierce you with his tusk and leave you hanging
there to dry for another half an hour, and still have some fun.
Ah well, I kinda liked that too.
Two Snakes
come out to sing their nightsong.
'This is a story,' Crowman says, 'of which I know not if it has any historic
validity. But I like the message in it, and I feel that it is myth, and
therefor true and false at the same time.'
And Crowman starts with his tale:
Somewhere and somewhen, there was an island. It was called the 'Isle of
Honey' from time to time, for life there was oh so very sweet. The people
there live in clans and families, and although they warred quite a lot, they
had respect for each other and upheld a vast number of strict rules on how,
when and where to conduct warfare. Generaly they were a farmer people, but
some lived of the hunt as well.
Their religion was an elaborate system of deities and gods. Of the elements,
seas, mountains, sky, crops, love, beaty. You see, these people where later
to be called Celts. They would have laughed their asses off should they have
known this, because something which is very 'Celtic', is naming about
everything you can see and cannot see. One name for so very many people must
have been a ludicrous idea at that time.
It was not however, such a ludicrous idea to the Romans who invaded the
'Isle of Honey'. They needed to study their enemy and bring reports back to
their commanders. And references to about five hundred families with very
difficult names was not something a scribe liked to write down. They were
refered to as Celts, for ease of use.
The Celts had their own priests, and they were highly respected. No man
would harm them, they had immunity for all King's requests and they could
say whatever they damned well pleased. The Romans already had their own
multi-gods pantheon traded for the monogod of Christianity, and it were
those priests that had the most dealings with the druids, the name for the
Celtic priests.
So, one time, a group of druids sat down at a groove and invited some
priests do join in, to discuss religeous matter.
'Who do you pray to?', the druids inquired.
'The One and Only God.', the priests replied.
'How does it look like?'.
'He is not an it, it is an he. And He is Our Father in Heaven.'
'Hmm,', mumbled the druids, 'could you tell us who your Mother is then?'
'Well, no. We have enough, God said so.'
'Hmm, maybe we need to speak of our religion. We see the created and the
Creator in all things. There are men and there are women, therefor there is
a god and there is a goddess. There is a farm and a farmer, therefor there
is a god for the farm and the farmer. We see the gods in our life.'
'But that's blasphemy,', the priests angrily shouted, 'there is only the One
and Only God!'.
'Yes, we know that, for there is only one creation, therefor there must be
one god. But we have many faces, and therefor that God has many faces as
well. We know of the Sky God, he shines and warms us daily, he is the Sun.
You see, what we all agree on in our own views, is that there are three
states of the Goddess, and two states of the God, like the three states of
the Moon and the two states of the Sun. But they are the faces of the One.'
'But, but... you do not worship Him, you do not know Jesus Christ, you have
no churches, you build no altars like we do, you do not drink His blood and
eat His flesh!'.
Now it was the druids turn to look astounded.
'We have our "churches", and our altar, we know the man called "Esus", but
indeed we do not eat the flesh of our god, nor drink the blood. What do you
take us for, barbarian cannibals?'.
And that proves the profound prophetic skills of the druids, for they were
indeed labeled barbarians, and sometimes even cannibals, reputed and
disgusted for their human sacrifices, as stated by the same Christian
priests.
Christianity usurped the entire religion of the 'Isle of Honey' and thought
to have won the religeous slugfest. Yet the druids were not gone completely.
They held that if a building of stone was placed on a holy place, there was
still the holy place. And since they were in basic outlines the same,
praying to the same god, but did not had the hypocracy to call all other
deities 'saints' and still claim mono-god-hood, they adepted some of their
form as to get along with this new religion. Knowing full well, that however
you see your god, it is always a face of the One and Only, He and She as One
with Many Faces.
And with that Crowman threw the remains of his cigarette into the fire, and
melted back into the shadows, mayhaps to gather more tales, mayhaps to
sleep. And yet, as the shadows seem to caress his vanishing form, a small
silver voice is heard singing, 'shadows know myth, light sees history,
share.....'.
removethispart TheEquati0n
This Two Snakes guy is too wise
I'll have to lick his soft ass raw !
====
>Love and Respect
>
>Crowman TwoSnakes
>
>
>
that sounds good enuff to me -- back to the potato chips and MTV...
(its not about telling how it is, but about giving others a chance to see for themselves)
---- I'm just as false prophet as all the others ----
Two Snakes
removethispart (TheEquati0n) heeft geschreven in bericht
<377f4d7b...@news.clara.net>...
>
>This Two Snakes guy is too wise
>I'll have to lick his soft ass raw !
>
>====
>
So, you think my ass is soft, do you now? And you've made it your personal
holy mission to change that? Well then, I suggest you get from that couch of
yours, clear up some chips, turn of MTV, and go about it.
Or will your holy mission have to wait just that little while longer, since
MTV does run 24 hours a day and all.
You act like a fly, let's see where the sting is in that.
Jo
however related to culture theft. I've been wondering, now please remember
this is a genuine question and not a firestarter, what do folk here think
about the sales of Native American 'style' crafts not by by NAs being sold
in shops etc. By this I refer specifically to dreamcatchers, medicine
pouches, spirit shields, drums with tribal art and
totem-this-that-and-the-other. I will be honest and say I have had a go at
making dream catchers because I think they are beautiful objects and the
different web designs present a challenge. I occasionally sell my own crafts
on a stall but have always stopped short of this kind of thing because I'm
just not sure. By the way, no-one is claiming that any of the above items
being sold are made by NAs.
Opinions? (I bet there are!)
--
Written with all the best intentions I can muster
Jo.
xxx
Nita Byrd
Jo < ...
, what do folk here think
> about the sales of Native American 'style' crafts not by by NAs being sold
> in shops etc. By this I refer specifically to dreamcatchers, medicine
> pouches, spirit shields, drums with tribal art and
> totem-this-that-and-the-other.
I personally wouldn't want them if not made athentically by a craftsperson
who is of NA descent, period. It would be a clear-cut case of cultural
theft, otherwise, since there are quite a number of NA authentic items
available for sale as it is. Why not support the NA craftspeople and buy
wholesale from them and sell for retail where you are? Cletis Two Feathers
Harper owns an Indian trading post store, and he sells a lot of wholesale
items like glorious sweetgrass in long braids and many NA art and craft
objects, leather-works, jewelry, drums, dreamcatchers, etc. Everything is NA
made. I've bought jewelry, books, a dreamcatcher, cards, and gifts for my
sister. Check out my post on "Sweetgrass Available Retail/Wholesale" for
his email address. Cletis is respected by all races including Indian
people, who come for miles around to trade and buy. He takes his Indian
wares to many Pow Wow's and is well-known in more than a few states. He's a
great friend and of Cherokee descent.
I will be honest and say I have had a go at
> making dream catchers because I think they are beautiful objects and the
> different web designs present a challenge. I occasionally sell my own
crafts
> on a stall but have always stopped short of this kind of thing because I'm
> just not sure. By the way, no-one is claiming that any of the above items
> being sold are made by NAs.
> Opinions? (I bet there are!)
I think it's wonderful to make Indian things for yourself, if you so desire,
or even for relatives and friends, I personally wouldn't sell them, many of
Indian ancestry are really disturbed by the practice, and look upon it as
cultural theft, and I have to agree with them. As long as Indian objects
are at present readily available that are made by different tribespeople,
then it is unethical to sell items made by people who are not Indian, to be
passed off as "NA". One reason is because so often the product is a
distortion of authenticity, not being derived from access to the skills of
how the tribe did similar things in the past.
I recently purchased a synthetic drum, but I knew full well it was not made
by a NA., and it wasn't being passed off as NA either. I prefer the
synthetic because I don't have to adjust the skin with changes in the
humidity, and for other reasons.
Thank you for asking honest questions. This is just my opinion.
Nita, the Red Frog
Prairie Dog
I occasionally sell my own crafts
> on a stall but have always stopped short of this kind of thing because I'm
> just not sure. By the way, no-one is claiming that any of the above items
> being sold are made by NAs.
> Opinions? (I bet there are!)
> Written with all the best intentions I can muster
>
> Jo.
> xxx
Prairie Dog replies:
Well hello there Jo.
I am not an Indian. I do have some friends that have some strong cultural
integrity issues.
This is a good question. I do not know how sacred dream catchers are. I do
know that MO Jo pouches and the like are very American. My mom calls them
??"asthitity"?? bags or something like that . Now shrouding them under the
name "Native American" or "Native American Style" or "Indian" might be a
bit on the misleading side. For example if you sold me a Native American
style dream catcher and I ask "How does it work?" and "What tribe/s used
them?" And "were do I hang it?" "How high do I hang it?" What would you
answer? Now same thing for medicine pouch or even the Jewelry? "What does
that there little symbol or animal mean?" "What tribe?" etc. etc. etc. I
think when that happens the answers that are given become very dangerous.
Here is why. ""Son here is your Medicine Pouch I bought. It is from the
Creek Nation and they used them to drive away the bad water spirits."" Ok my
boy ask how I know that and I reply. "The lady that makes them told me".
This becomes a valid belief and starts the ball of crap rolling. I am a bit
concerned because I have been to many stores here in Georgia that sell "Real
Cherokee stuff". I had the great honor of speaking via e-mail with the high
school history teacher of the western band of Cherokee in Oklahoma and he
told me that there is very little left of the old ways or teaching. Even
less of sacred items thanks to the wonderful missionaries and kind
government of ours here in the U.S.A. I guess I should of told him to come
on down to any Georgia convenience store and he could find lots of them..
See my point?
Jo
Prairie Dog <pdo...@metista.com> wrote in message
news:7lpfq5$1ko$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> Well hello there Jo.
> I am not an Indian. I do have some friends that have some strong cultural
> integrity issues.
I understand the need for cultural integrity. I am working on my own
symbolism at the moment and drawing inspiration from many cultures to do so.
This is because I don't want to re-invent the wheel not because I intend to
rip anything off. I hope, by examining other representations of the sacred
to try and see how a culture would arrive at a particular symbol and then
work out my own using a similar thought process. Sort of working backwards
and then forwards down a new path. Does that make sense?
> Prairie Dog
>
Yes I do, I also understand the point Nita made too.
On a side note, you mention Mojo and medecine pouches. Before I began to
learn about shamanism I used to work intuitively and one thing I 'invented'
was a charm pouch. I would listen to what a person had to say about their
troubles or requests and then sew up a tiny linen pouch and put in it stones
and herbs for that person alone. I picked the items by 'feel' and I received
positive feedback from those who got the pouches. Now I didn'y know what a
NA medecine pouch looked like. I'm sure I must have heard of the things at
some time but I felt I was working from my own Hedgewitch nature. Am I
wrong?
Prairie Dog
Jo <j...@the-shades-1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7lpjrd$qsk$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
. I'm sure I must have heard of the things at
> some time but I felt I was working from my own Hedgewitch nature. Am I
> wrong?
>
Prairie Dog replies:
In my opinion if you work from your own anything,, you will very rarely be
wrong <g>!
Blessings Jo.
[:Kent-Erik:]
I would like to tell you a little of why I use the tarot, and how I learned,
so you will understand the intent of my scribbles down below.
I use the tarot only to point out hidden and/or overlooked qualities that we
are born with. Never to tell anyones fortune or lovelife etc... that's
unimportant to me since I know that everyone can achieve what's in their
minds if they only are aware of who they are... and the tarot help me read
the Q'er in another way, beacuse when they are occupied with looking at the
cards, I can take a closer look at them and compare this with what can be
found in the tarot... :-)
Finaly... let me just point out. It's of little importance how long you've
used the tarot. It is how you have learned to use them that is important...
how you interact with the cards and what the cards tell you about
themselves... for short, getting to know each other. Just like you do when
you meet new friends...
I've began learning tarot when I was about 8 yrs old, and held me first
unsupervised reading at the age of 13. Today I'm 45, and still learning to
read them... **Just so you'll understand my POV**
Flora and Eric Floen skrev i meddelandet
<377EAC...@earthlink.net>...
>[:Kent-Erik:] wrote:
>>
>------------------------snip!--------------------------
>> To All.....
>> To try to honor your many thoughts, I will try to describe how I try to
>> see through the concept...........
>> Ahem... I would like to express it like this. The XV.Devil's card is one
>> of the few cards in the tarot that gives us pure negative feelings, the
>> other is XIII.Death. Both of them represents a form of illusion,.........
>>----------<snippage>----------
>
>This caught my eyes, because I am interested in such things. Exploring
>personal darkness is an obsession for me, because I have so much,
>myself... but also because someone I love deeply is seriously posessed
>by a Bad Thing.......... <snippage>
>
>But something I have noticed, is that from contact with her I have come
>to associate the Devil with Wrong-headed thinking, misplaced priorities,
>mischief of a personal nature, and sometimes HUMOR.
This is one thing we have in common then, Flora. The need to explore and
explain our own darkness, if not to anyone else so at least to ourselves.
For me it has been necessary to, not only because I have done readings for
others, and not only friends, but also to try and find out more about some
of my other abilities. Before I did this I was un-certain of the origiin of
my abilities. I felt it was not enough to only know in my heart why I did
the things I did, the way I did them, and some times still do.
It is important to keep in mind that the tarot itself has no power. Instead
it is my own knowledge about and associations of the symbols and the figures
in the tarot that forms a force or a power. The tarot itself only "scan" the
present state of mind and energy, on a conscius aswell as subconscius level.
When I look at the tarot and interpret them, my conscius level and the
unconscius' interacts. The images and associations that appears in the
interpretation corresponds to the processes I need to work on. In other
words, it's always the right card that emerges.
What's important to understand is that the cards can be interpreted in a
variety of different levels, depending of i.e. type of question or
concentration at the moment. It is also important to have in mind that our
own conscius is constantly changing focus; that's why the same question
gives different answers at different occations, in spite that the
circumstances doesn't seem to have changed.
I will not continue to bore you with all the suits and definitions that can
be found in the tarot, only those mentioned below. Only remember, this is
how I've been tought to read my tarot, it is not to be taken as a law....
>
>Death is simply CHANGE.
To me the card Death represents as it says death, but _not_ physical. It
represents the death of our ego, e.g. transformation, to develope our
ability to endure serious changes of our self. Without changes there is no
room for progress. We have to dare leaving everything that doesn't support
developing ourselves. Since our ego is our front, our shell, to protect us
from the outside world, the mask we're holding up towards others, it will
collapse when we go through serious changes in life. Our ego's defence is to
cling to what is achieved and don't let go. That's what makes all serious
changes in life connected to pain - the pain of our ego, and makes us feel
like we're going to die.
>But the card I am afraid of getting is the TOWER, because to me that
>means you're fucked, baby. Destruction of current situation, or
>emotional investment. No way out. Just ride out the storm, and hope to
>god/ess that the changes bring you greater understanding and some hidden
>benefit.
To me the Tower represents our own mental prison, built with walls of
self-righteousness, and created to make us rise above our fellowhumans and
appear closer to divinity. It might be considered the beginning of the end.
When lightning strikes, read truth is revealed to us, the human brain
becomes liberated of all unnecessary conscius thoughts and the spirit can
begin descending into matter. Now it is important to remember that
everything that happens is for a better cause. Literary speaking, an
awakening or revelation occurs that brings us to our sences. Like ripples in
the water every change leads to another until a total transformation has
happened. When "The Tower" is finished, there is nothing left to be afraid
of or worry about. Instead this will lead us to be more humble and start
building a new life on a ground based upon more solid values of life than
before.
>> The aspects of the human conscius that are easiest denied are the "dark"
>> ones. One might even say that aspects being surpressed becomes the
>> "dark".............<snippage>
>
>This is so true. And in denying it, we inadvertantly feed this darker
>side and give it free rein. You have to acknowledge something first,
>before taking controll of it. Once you look at it as a problem, or a
>wild thing to be managed, it becomes far less frightening and
>overwhelming. "Oh! that monster was just me! I glimpsed my reflection
>in the darkened room and first thought it was an intruder...."
(-: Hehe, yeaah, you tell me. Guess how many times I looked myself in the
mirror, telling myself the same.
>> We live in a perfectionistic society under extremely peaked demands on
>> ourselves. If we don't behave "perfect" we experience guilt.........
>> .............. The existence of one without the other would be
>> impossible.
>>
>It's also where humor comes from...a release of energy after an initial
>stress of expectation of something bad, turns into a reality of
>something ludicrous. The laughter is like an engine letting off steam
>pressure.
Mmm, but on occasions it has been followed by the comment, "Hey, you. Don't
let the door slam you in the aい on your way out". At least the experience
made me more humble, even if I had a good laugh out of it later.
>> To admit our dark sides does not imply that we have to or shall
>> outlive/tolerate outrage, cruelty or violence without restraint. Instead
>> it is important to realize............
>><snippage for brevity>
>I would call these "methods of dark side management." You see it, and
>then, you decide which way you think you want to use to "handle" this
>thing, that you now realize you got on your hands.
Yes, I agree again. For me it has been to try and find a way to use the dark
force in a positive way. Like when one is really upset, and feel like kick
someone in the rear end. Well, at those times I found out that doing
ordinary housework tends to be much easier. the furniture is much less heavy
>> The physical and spiritual levels has to be connected so that energies
>> can flow freely. But our attention can and will be focused towards one
>> or the other at times. Shear denial of one or the other is "the work of
>> the Devil". For one side to grow, the other has to develop. Compare this
>
>Ooooh this is SO true!
>
>> statement with a growing tree; for the foliage to grow big and strong
>> the spirit, our higher conscius ) the roots ( physical level, our
>> materialistic urges ) also has to develop and transform.
>>
>> The theme of XV.Devil is developing our free will, which we have been
>> made aware of earlier. There's an obvious connection between sin and
>> freedom, but also between sin and development. The conditions of
>> knowledge are nonpartial to good or evil.
>>
>and to see it reversed means release from Bondage, mental or spiritual.
>
>> It's interesting that this cards comes so late in our chain of
>> development. Why haven't we meet him earlier? Probably because we.....
>> <snipped for brevity>
>>
>> as always ... Kent-Erik
>
>This was a good post, I loved it... I like your take on the major
>Arcana, as the stages of development. I agree, and like the way you
>integrate your philosophy into your readings...
>
>FLORA
Finaly... Thank you, Flora. You are used to me using the tarot sometimes to
explain my POV by now. But to the new ones and lurkers I once again say...
Please don't be offended, it wasn't intended. The fact is that I'm very
interested in the tarot, and I use them when I feel that I can make a point.
The tarot works for me as being the archetypes, images of mind and spirit,
that I lack. IMO there is really no negative tarotcards, only aspects of our
qualities and weaknesses that we can learn more about from the tarot. To me
they're more like a roadmap of our lives.
In friendship and respect... Kent-Erik
Nita Byrd
Prairie Dog < ...
>
> Jo <j...@the-shades-1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:7lpjrd$qsk$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> . I'm sure I must have heard of the things at
> > some time but I felt I was working from my own Hedgewitch nature. Am I
> > wrong?
> >
>
> Prairie Dog replies:
> In my opinion if you work from your own anything,, you will very rarely be
> wrong <g>!
I fully agree, you have special magic coming from your own spirit! A
medicine pouch imbued with your own power and blessings and not sold as NA,
is working for you and for those who receive it--a win/win situation :)
I used to be a Bavarian Decorative Painter. Never thought about problems of
"cultural integrity" until I demonstrated my version of folk art painting at
a show based on ethnic folk art, and one German was irate, exclaiming loudly
and creating a scene that he had never before seen painting in Germany like
mine. Everyone else appreciated the beauty and meticulous care I showed in
each item I presented for sale. Nevertheless, it taught me a profound
lesson. I can still paint, but I know better, if I ever sell or teach
again, I need to make clear that the style I paint is a modernised version
of Bavarian and Austrian style painting, and does not represent the actual
style of the Bavarian-Austrian region, but the style of an Internationally
known teacher in the decorative painting field. So I see a critical need to
separate what I do and represent, so that it is clear to the consumer, just
what it is they are purchasing. Sometimes, as in what I was doing, there is
a very fine line. I gave many people enjoyment with durable craft items,
and even opened up the eyes of children in the schools to the beauty and
simplicity of folk art painting.
Hope you will post more with us :)
Nita, the Red Frog
Two Snakes
<lot of snipping>
>> We live in a perfectionistic society under extremely peaked demands on
>> ourselves. If we don't behave "perfect" we experience guilt. We find it
>> natural to identify ourselves as being "good", but accordingly the need
>> for scapegoats increases. This problem emerge because we are separating
>> ourselves from the "dark", instead of realizing the fact that the
>> interplay between light and dark is as natural as the connection between
>> day and night. The existence of one without the other would be
>> impossible.
>>
>
>It's also where humor comes from...a release of energy after an initial
>stress of expectation of something bad, turns into a reality of
>something ludicrous. The laughter is like an engine letting off steam
>pressure.
>
So sorry, story time:
One day, some time ago, I did a very, very tiny, itsy bitsy little thing
that was just a very little bit like a Vision Quest. I dislike calling it so
a bit, but it was in preperation for the 'real' thing, something I am not
finished with yet.
That day I started of at sunrise and found myself a nice spot, discovered
the day before. I could make this a long story, and tell you of all the
things that happened, or even just a few, but that would still take to much
words and your time. So I'll keep it with what I learned about humour and
trees from the little people:
Trees and plants have not forgotten and still live by it, matter is solid
laughter.
You may cut a tree down in disrespect and the forest cries with tears, but
after the griefing and loss, life reverts back to it's original state, which
is happiness.
End of story.
If some of you don't understand what I mean, then don't ask me, ask some
trees and see what stories they tell you. All truth.
Two Snakes
name of the house I was lived my first years at in the UK, the place is a
miniature of the genuine Dutch culture. The Japanese who work there have
these funny little blue farmerjackets, red scarfs and of course, the
universal yellow wooden shoes. They are selling genuine Delfts Blue, and all
under the watchfull eyes of the everpresent windmill. Oh, and the place is
rigged with dams and dykes.
A few years ago I met some American lasses over in Brighton (GB), after they
had visitited Amsterdam. They could tell me about pot and weed species I
never even heard of, and could relate the location of about two dozen
coffeeshops, as well as a brief summary of our Red Light District.
Brighton, for a little geography lesson, lies at the south end of England,
it is a beach town. When we first met, they asked me where the ocean was,
(hey, they came from Oklahoma, what'd you expect?), and I pointed them to
that big blue thing at the end of the road. They were thrilled. When I asked
them if they hadn't been to the beach when they were in Holland, they
replied:
'Oh, does Holland have any beaches?'
No, we just build all those dams and dykes just so we are safe from a bad
case of bathtub leakage!
Well, I'm Dutch, says so in my passport, and I'm proud of my ancestors and
all the other people who made the Netherlands such a safe place from
overflowing baths. I am proud and consider windmills a cultural heritage of
ours. We dance our sacred dances on those stupid wooden shoes, while blowing
our stoned up minds away. Oh, and we are either all whores or going to them,
and that too is a cultural identity.
So, because I feel this way, would all Japanese kindly not go to 'Little
Holland' anymore? Don't bother the fact that some of my people actually
benefit from that deal you made with them, never mind the popularity Holland
enjoys of Japanese tourists who are happy to do bussiness wiht us farmtypes,
and keep our Dutch money roling . Never mind that we are seen as whoring
drug addicts, with funny blue farmjackets and yellow wooden shoes. We know
we are selling out, and are honest about it too.
But it is sacred I tell you. God gave windmills to the Dutch, and not for
entertainment of some swordtowing, toyota manufacturing, rice eating
samourai clan. No, it was for us, and us alone. You of not-Dutch origin will
never understand that. Ask Don Quichotte, after I'm threw sueing his ass of,
he had no right to fight our national pride but hide it for another
nation's. He got mad, and he deserved that, only the Dutch know how to
properly respect the God given Holy Windmill.
I would also like all people who have 'genuine' Delfts Blue Pottery, kindly
label it differently. Since our factories who genuinely made that no longer
use the ancient techniques, know as 'manual labour', everything that is not
easily breakable is a fake. You test it for yourself, and if it breaks, that
means the spirits of the Delfts Blue Dish is upset, and will most likely
retaliate at us, the Dutch.
It is sacred I tell you!
Funny thing though, no matter how much of Holland is known by foreigners,
they still don't know a thing about us, besides that we are all whoring
drugaddicts with funny blue farmjackets and a dislike to leaking bathtubs.
Ah well, guess we know better, now don't we?
And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek it
with yourself. Because it is sacred.
Nita Byrd
> > Written with all the best intentions I can muster
> >
> > Jo.
> > xxx
>
>
"Real
> Cherokee stuff". I had the great honor of speaking via e-mail with the
high
> school history teacher of the western band of Cherokee in Oklahoma and he
> told me that there is very little left of the old ways or teaching. Even
> less of sacred items thanks to the wonderful missionaries and kind
> government of ours here in the U.S.A. I guess I should of told him to come
> on down to any Georgia convenience store and he could find lots of them..
> See my point?
I would like to point out that my Cherokee friend and seller of Indian made
wares, here in VA, clearly knows the difference as a wholesale buyer from
craftspeople and families of Indian descent, and those who have no claim to
be passing on their heritage through these items. Cletis Harper, whom I've
given his trading post website in the post, "Sweetgrass Available
Retail/Wholesale" http://www.cletistwofeathers.com is an honorable trader
of discernment, where Indian wholesale to retail is concerned. I have been
in his store, and he has work such as jewelry and leather made items, carved
bone, cards and books by NAs from various craftsmiths, mainly NA families
who specialize in their visions coming from their ancestors, and their craft
is the family's livelihood. Sure he will sell contempory hats and the like
saying "Cherokee" embroidered on them, along with the Indian-crafted things.
People who buy them know they are simple hats with names of the tribe on
them and represent pride in one's ancesters.
I had to wait for a long time for a pair of horsetail, Lakota earrings to
actually come into the shop, made by a Lakota who replicates the designs of
the past. Now those earrings could have been bought by a fluffy idiot,
inflated with the disease of ego-inflation, and who wears the earrings while
teaching false and distorted concepts about Indians.
Does that make the earrings at fault, or the person who wears them?
I was very pleased to send this special pair of plain horsehair earrings to
my sister, who has a special place in her heart for the Lakota spiritual
teachings and people.
So the need for discernment in our judgements, sometimes takes a good deal
of rational thought, before we react from only the primitive, emotional
sides of our natures. My spirit gardian's strength is perception of balance
in all things. But I degress.
Nita, the Red Frog
Nita Byrd
> In Japan there is a place called 'Little Holland', besides that being the
> name of the house I was lived my first years at in the UK, the place is a
> miniature of the genuine Dutch culture. The Japanese who work there have
> these funny little blue farmerjackets, red scarfs and of course, the
> universal yellow wooden shoes. They are selling genuine Delfts Blue, and
all
> under the watchfull eyes of the everpresent windmill. Oh, and the place is
> rigged with dams and dykes.
> A few years ago I met some American lasses over in Brighton (GB), after
they
> had visitited Amsterdam. They could tell me about pot and weed species I
> never even heard of, and could relate the location of about two dozen
> coffeeshops, as well as a brief summary of our Red Light District.
and
> all the other people who made the Netherlands such a safe place from
> overflowing baths. I am proud and consider windmills a cultural heritage
of
Pottery, kindly
> label it differently. Since our factories who genuinely made that no
longer
> use the ancient techniques, know as 'manual labour', everything that is
not
> easily breakable is a fake. You test it for yourself, and if it breaks,
that
> means the spirits of the Delfts Blue Dish is upset, and will most likely
> retaliate at us, the Dutch.
> It is sacred I tell you!
> Funny thing though, no matter how much of Holland is known by foreigners,
> they still don't know a thing about us, besides that we are all whoring
> drugaddicts with funny blue farmjackets and a dislike to leaking bathtubs.
> Ah well, guess we know better, now don't we?
>
> And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek
it
> with yourself. Because it is sacred.
>
> Love and Respect
>
> Crowman TwoSnakes
>
authenticity.
In the early 60's, when I was 15 and living in Europe among Germans "on the
economy" as we called it, near an American military base, Ramstein, my Dad
decided that he'd like to tour Holland with me, as my Mom, brother and
little sister,couldn't go at that time.
What a wonderful and special time for me and my Dad! I'll never forget the
red, yellow, white, and deep purple Tulips at Keukenhof Gardens. The
miniature Dutch village, was it called "Little Amsterdam?", not sure, but it
was magical. There were plenty of stories from a historical perspective of
the dykes and the dams, and we visited a working windmill. I did hear the
tour guide mentioning the red light district at one time, and since then
heard the same districts existed in Denmark and Germany. Practically every
tour guide in every European country thereafter would remark about their red
light district on subsequent tours, and always the tourists smirked and
chuckled, for the humor in it.
It has been about 40 years since I visited Holland, and I have only faded
memories, but memories that I cherish from that tour with my Dad.
When I was 21, and had European as well as American friends, I went to the
Zeudersea, a well-known man-made Lake in Holland with my Navy Officer
boyfriend and some other Americans, and we shared a large cottage and a
houseboat with a large group of Dutch, French, and German University
students. It was my fist time out to learn to sail, and I was surprised at
how physically demanding to handle it can be for a two-person crew. My navy
boyfriend taught me how to sail, and I remember I had a bit of a problem
with "quarter starboard and stern" at first, as I was handling the steering
:) We got out further than anyone, and when we saw boats starting to turn
back in at a distance, we kept "fool'n around since we'd found a stationary
place far away from the other boaters :) and kept saying we'd start back in
just a few minutes more. Boy were we stupid!
Soon a storm burst upon us, and we tried desparately to get back to the
shore, but in the midst of the storm, a wind came around us, that wind has a
special name, and tipped over the boat! We could have drowned. A couple of
people did, who were out there somewhere too and had the same wind come and
capsize them also. I didn't get caught in the sail or riggings, and was a
good swimmer and clung to the side of the boat. My friend also an excellent
swimmer, was thrown under the sail, and had to swim out from
underneath--whew! Soon another memory of Holland would remain, a wonderful
big rescue ship came out within about 10 minutes after the storm died down,
and we were given towels and Dutch chocolate bars and rich cocoa to warm us
up. No chocolate has ever tasted as good!! I loved the friendliness of all
the Dutch people I met from the rescuers to the people I met at the Lake.
I brought home to America what I think is Delft, but sorry to say, I refuse
to test it by trying to break them, no way! :) I guess they are authentic
for being made in the early 60's, compared with the quality of the 90's.
Don't know what 40 years difference makes, though. I love them for
representing my visit to Holland.
Nita
Joseph B. W. Wilson
Why are your beliefs so superior that they must oppress the beliefs of
other peoples in the world?
Why are your cultural traits so superior that they must replace the
cultural traits of other peoples in the world?
Why do you disrespect the cultural traditions of other peoples in the
world so much that you mock them?
What you are doing is different from those who come into a land and
kill the people in order to take it over only in that instead of
killing their bodies you are killing their cultural beliefs. It's
still murder.
But then, that doesn't matter does it? Because you have the one true
right and only way.
Your illustrations are artificial and misleading. If the Netherlands
have a problem with Japan then take it up with Japan. Yes, your
country might benefit from some of the things sold in Japan. But
damned few Indians, if any at all, benefit from imitation Indian
artifacts made in Japan (or by some other non-Indian peoples) and sold
to the general populations in competition with similar articles made
by the native people themselves. Same goes for plastic's workshops.
<sigh>
You may not think you are racist, but you sure are exhibiting the
traits.
Two Snakes, this post isn't intended as a flame. It is intended to
point out to you, and to others, the arrogance of the attitude you and
some others express.
Joseph B. W. Wilson
http://www.metista.com
Copyright 1999 Joseph B. W. Wilson
On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:42:53 +0200, "Two Snakes"
<Two.S...@kabelfoon.nl> skribis:
>In Japan there is a place called 'Little Holland', besides that being the
>name of the house I was lived my first years at in the UK, the place is a
>miniature of the genuine Dutch culture. The Japanese who work there have
>these funny little blue farmerjackets, red scarfs and of course, the
>universal yellow wooden shoes. They are selling genuine Delfts Blue, and all
>under the watchfull eyes of the everpresent windmill. Oh, and the place is
>rigged with dams and dykes.
>A few years ago I met some American lasses over in Brighton (GB), after they
>had visitited Amsterdam. They could tell me about pot and weed species I
>never even heard of, and could relate the location of about two dozen
>coffeeshops, as well as a brief summary of our Red Light District.
>Brighton, for a little geography lesson, lies at the south end of England,
>it is a beach town. When we first met, they asked me where the ocean was,
>(hey, they came from Oklahoma, what'd you expect?), and I pointed them to
>that big blue thing at the end of the road. They were thrilled. When I asked
>them if they hadn't been to the beach when they were in Holland, they
>replied:
>'Oh, does Holland have any beaches?'
>No, we just build all those dams and dykes just so we are safe from a bad
>case of bathtub leakage!
>
>Well, I'm Dutch, says so in my passport, and I'm proud of my ancestors and
>all the other people who made the Netherlands such a safe place from
>overflowing baths. I am proud and consider windmills a cultural heritage of
>ours. We dance our sacred dances on those stupid wooden shoes, while blowing
>our stoned up minds away. Oh, and we are either all whores or going to them,
>and that too is a cultural identity.
>So, because I feel this way, would all Japanese kindly not go to 'Little
>Holland' anymore? Don't bother the fact that some of my people actually
>benefit from that deal you made with them, never mind the popularity Holland
>enjoys of Japanese tourists who are happy to do bussiness wiht us farmtypes,
>and keep our Dutch money roling . Never mind that we are seen as whoring
>drug addicts, with funny blue farmjackets and yellow wooden shoes. We know
>we are selling out, and are honest about it too.
>But it is sacred I tell you. God gave windmills to the Dutch, and not for
>entertainment of some swordtowing, toyota manufacturing, rice eating
>samourai clan. No, it was for us, and us alone. You of not-Dutch origin will
>never understand that. Ask Don Quichotte, after I'm threw sueing his ass of,
>he had no right to fight our national pride but hide it for another
>nation's. He got mad, and he deserved that, only the Dutch know how to
>properly respect the God given Holy Windmill.
Maqua
article...and he read it:
It seems that in article <37830f86...@news.netonecom.net>,
be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson) wrote:
> <sigh> You still don't get it do you?
>
> Why are your beliefs so superior that they must oppress the beliefs of
> other peoples in the world?
>
Maqua humms to Joe's questions:
Imagine there's no heaven...
> Why are your cultural traits so superior that they must replace the
> cultural traits of other peoples in the world?
It's easy if you try...
>
> Why do you disrespect the cultural traditions of other peoples in the
> world so much that you mock them?
No hell bellow us...
>
> What you are doing is different from those who come into a land and
> kill the people in order to take it over only in that instead of
> killing their bodies you are killing their cultural beliefs. It's
> still murder.
Above us only sky...
>
> But then, that doesn't matter does it? Because you have the one true
> right and only way.
Imagine all the people...
>
> Your illustrations are artificial and misleading. If the Netherlands
> have a problem with Japan then take it up with Japan. Yes, your
> country might benefit from some of the things sold in Japan. But
> damned few Indians, if any at all, benefit from imitation Indian
> artifacts made in Japan (or by some other non-Indian peoples) and sold
> to the general populations in competition with similar articles made
> by the native people themselves. Same goes for plastic's workshops.
>
> <sigh>
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
(I wonder if any Japanese profit from the making of Plastic Buddha dash
ornaments, or if Indians make plastic Buddha's for that matter?)
heheheh
>
> You may not think you are racist, but you sure are exhibiting the
> traits.
>
> Two Snakes, this post isn't intended as a flame. It is intended to
> point out to you, and to others, the arrogance of the attitude you and
> some others express.
>
Hmmm...looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
Aunty Flo? C'mere a second.
Would you hold my honey pot for me?
Thanks.
*gives Joseph a gentle tip*
*SPLAT*
Oooh, he doo fall down into the dung good, don't he? :)
Who wants to be king of the hill next? :)
(Sorry, I did jump into this discussion...but that post, Joe, smacks of
authority. More humble pie?)
Giggling,
Maqua, the laughing Bear,
Keeper of the sacred Bunt Cake Pan Bundle
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Two Snakes
Americans or any other people for that matter. I leave that up to the people
who react in a way to what I wrote that exhibits that. I did not mention
Native Americans anywhere in my post, you saw it, and you saw a lot more
too.
Yes, I am a young lad, but I got a score of scars to back up my life. And
one thing very prominently became appearant to me, and yes, it is a
universal thing.
We can only see what we can see.
I understand what I wrote Joseph, and I understand what you see, I truly do.
Look for it within yourself, because it is sacred.
WhiteHorse
song of this land. Shadow and truth weave their way across the meadows and I
have many names - and many names for it.
Thanks for the soul-fire Crowman
Bright Blessings
Dx
<Dreams are the language of the soul...>
Flora and Eric Floen
>
> Jo <j...@the-shades-1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:7lpjrd$qsk$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> . I'm sure I must have heard of the things at
> > some time but I felt I was working from my own Hedgewitch nature. Am I
> > wrong?
> >
>
> Prairie Dog replies:
> In my opinion if you work from your own anything,, you will very rarely be
> wrong <g>!
>
>
> --
> Prairie Dog
I'm gonna second the Pdoggy's opinion. If it comes from you, it's
straight from the heart, and the Intent and the belief are probably WAY
strong. That is the working component of miracles or Magic.
FLORA
Flora and Eric Floen
I understand that you don't understand, but the Dutch people are not
being wiped out by anybody, or repressed.
You are your own country, allowed to govern yourselves, have a place
securely painted on the map, and nobody threatens to take it away from
you. Nor does anybody threaten to take away your funny wooden shoes or
Blue delft, and erase even the memory of it, forever.
The petulance of this article is really not your usual syle, as you are
usually a person willing to listen to another and consider their words
seriously.
T will only see this Post as mean spirited mockery. And You have not
advanced yourself or your arguement in anyones eyes. The contrast
between the dutch, who are very much recognised and secure in thier
place, as whoring lechers, or as drug addicts, STILL get to be that, or
anything else they wish, and are let alone to be so.
The American First Nations are being wiped out and are not in the same
position. Do you see thier territories on any map? It just isn't there
like Holland is.
Think about it.
Blessings,
FLORA
> It is sacred I tell you!
> Funny thing though, no matter how much of Holland is known by foreigners,
> they still don't know a thing about us, besides that we are all whoring
> drugaddicts with funny blue farmjackets and a dislike to leaking bathtubs.
> Ah well, guess we know better, now don't we?
>
> And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek it
> with yourself. Because it is sacred.
Flora and Eric Floen
>
> To the new-to-this-forum'ers...
> I would like to tell you a little of why I use the tarot, and how I learned,
> so you will understand the intent of my scribbles down below.
>
> >This was a good post, I loved it... I like your take on the major
> >Arcana, as the stages of development. I agree, and like the way you
> >integrate your philosophy into your readings...
> >
> >FLORA
>
> Finaly... Thank you, Flora. You are used to me using the tarot sometimes to
> explain my POV by now. But to the new ones and lurkers I once again say...
>
> Please don't be offended, it wasn't intended. The fact is that I'm very
> interested in the tarot, and I use them when I feel that I can make a point.
> The tarot works for me as being the archetypes, images of mind and spirit,
> that I lack. IMO there is really no negative tarotcards, only aspects of our
> qualities and weaknesses that we can learn more about from the tarot. To me
> they're more like a roadmap of our lives.
>
> In friendship and respect... Kent-Erik
Ok, now I am gonna swing this conversation about Tarot around and
explain whay I think it has a place here on a Shamanism NG.
You see shamanic practicioners often tell healing stories, and some even
have a Talent for making up their own, tho others use traditional ones
like the Zen Mondos and such... Stories like fables and Morality plays,
work by using archetypes, as do Tarot Cards.
Sometimes it is easier to counsel a person by doing a reading and
letting the archetypes of the Major and Minor arcana speak for you.
Because the message is put together by the listener, and the
associations are made BY THEM, using thier own reactions to the
different cards laid out before them, they are separated from the doubts
they might have in the Practicioner they are being counseled by, and
often encouraged by thier experiance to look at thier problem in a new
and totally unexpected way by the way the Layout goes. The Practicioner
lets the archtypes of the cards speak thru them, and the "medicine" of
thier counsel often goes down better, and the querant often takes into
the reading his own question and makes the applies his own associations
to the Archetypes displayed by the reading.
I have a lot of fun when the reading is telling a querant something they
don't want to know, but cannot force themselves to deny, when it is
coming from a piece of paper picked "at random." They cannot accuse the
paper of having it's own agenda. Often I request that they not even tell
me the question, so that i cannot be accused of making the reading "Fit"
the question or situation they describe. The reading, I find, is much
more effective this way.
And objective counsel is a very important function of a Shamanic
practicioner, and that is whay it is much better to serve a certain
community and a certain people well-known to the practicioner. It makes
their job much easier, tho far less magical. The Ol'Man taught me from
the first to read people and the common dynamic of certain situations.
Helps with readings, too.
Blessings,
FLORA
q
> But it is sacred I tell you. God gave windmills to the Dutch, and not for
> entertainment of some swordtowing, toyota manufacturing, rice eating
> samourai clan. No, it was for us, and us alone. You of not-Dutch origin will
> never understand that. Ask Don Quichotte, after I'm threw sueing his ass of,
> he had no right to fight our national pride but hide it for another
> nation's. He got mad, and he deserved that, only the Dutch know how to
> properly respect the God given Holy Windmill.
> I would also like all people who have 'genuine' Delfts Blue Pottery, kindly
> label it differently. Since our factories who genuinely made that no longer
> use the ancient techniques, know as 'manual labour', everything that is not
> easily breakable is a fake. You test it for yourself, and if it breaks, that
> means the spirits of the Delfts Blue Dish is upset, and will most likely
> retaliate at us, the Dutch.
> It is sacred I tell you!
> Funny thing though, no matter how much of Holland is known by foreigners,
> they still don't know a thing about us, besides that we are all whoring
> drugaddicts with funny blue farmjackets and a dislike to leaking bathtubs.
> Ah well, guess we know better, now don't we?
>
> And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek it
> with yourself. Because it is sacred.
>
> Love and Respect
>
> Crowman TwoSnakes
in addition to a forked tongue, snakes have what is known as a hemipene- in
essence, a forked dick
now, that doesn't mean they're twice as good at fucking- or half as good - or
even that they can fuck you coming and going
but they are fuckers
love and respect - sure
interesting which aspects of an animal we choose to embody- elemental sight or a
hemipene
q
<sigh- I really do dislike flames 'cause they're usually so pointless - I do
consider the holland post itself a flame>
btw - the point you missed is still alive and well
q
> I
>
> Maqua humms to Joe's questions:
>
> Imagine there's no heaven...
>
>
> It's easy if you try...
>
> No hell bellow us...
>
> Above us only sky...
>
> Imagine all the people...
>
>
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
oh good- and let's all sing a few choruses of "Let it BE' - and everything
will be filled with fluffy goodness
>
>
> (I wonder if any Japanese profit from the making of Plastic Buddha dash
> ornaments, or if Indians make plastic Buddha's for that matter?)
to quote someone who has actually given athoughtor three to the matter :
t seems that in article <37830f86...@news.netonecom.net>,
be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson) wrote:
> <sigh> You still don't get it do you?
>
> Why are your beliefs so superior that they must oppress the beliefs of
> other peoples in the world?
>
>
> heheheh
> Hmmm...looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
gee - must be a Paddington or are you emulating Pooh - try listening to or
embodying the non-stuffed variety ocassionally
>
>
> Aunty Flo? C'mere a second.
>
> Would you hold my honey pot for me?
same one you've been soaking your hemorrhoids in ?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> *gives Joseph a gentle tip*
here's a gentle tip - there are worlds beyond your butt - wonder what the
light at the end of that tunnel is
>
>
> *SPLAT*
more chunky peanut butter..........
>
>
> (Sorry, I did jump into this discussion...but that post, Joe, smacks of
> authority. More humble pie?)
>
> Giggling,
> Maqua, the laughing Bear,
> Keeper of the sacred Bunt Cake Pan Bundle
missed it again, huh - you know - the point
ok- here's a few more thoughts for everyone's pet - and yup - it's gonna
sound arrogant - deal with it or don't................
you have been taught some tremendous things - you have accomplished some
tremendous things - when are you going to put aside this stuffed pet blanket
you wrap around yourself and take another chance
tap dancing around the edges - how long can you keep it up ?
awwww.............. never mind
the exceedingly irritated and insulted
q
Joseph B. W. Wilson
<clip>
>> Two Snakes, this post isn't intended as a flame. It is intended to
>> point out to you, and to others, the arrogance of the attitude you and
>> some others express.
>>
>
>Hmmm...looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
>
No, Maqua. That was not a flame. This is a flame:
You trash stinking, chimp burping, pig watching, crab wallowing, bung
falating, pig smelling, barf spewing, prick holding, weasel pukeing,
toad feeding, ooze slurping, worm licking, phlegm gargling, prick
poking, pimple squealing, mold basting, grandpa grasping, gay feeding,
dick feeling, tramp burping, hog pumping, urine smelling, mold
squealing, puke smoking, scum porking, dump burping, fish wallowing,
maggot sucking, ass worshipping, monkey screwing, clown falating, fish
staring, toilet burping, dirt belching, worm smelling, nut burping,
elephant clawing, daddy undulating, homo spewing, chimp scratching,
crack chewing, acne sucking, daddy eating, mold jumping, hog screwing,
skunk swallowing, chipmunk clawing, faggot pukeing, ooze wallowing,
scum pumping, nad caressing, dog fondling, walrus frenching, squirrel
lusting, sheep hugging, crap burping, booger spewing, daddy
worshipping, puss blowing, fungus munching, chimp basting, walrus
sucking, mold frenching, chimp jerking, pig sucking, bum smoking, toad
hugging, chipmunk wacking, daddy fondling, rabbit feeding, trash
chewing, daddy snatching, camel caressing, dog spewing, slime feeding,
vomit twitching, piss grabbing, tramp smelling, fag spewing, toad
belching, dirt undulating, prick falating, booger feeling, cock
watching, barf smoking, ooze frenching, squirrel scarfing, prick
caressing, grandma pumping, rabbit smelling, pig basting, urine
grazing, faggot drooling, grandma worshipping, puss copping, weasel
slurping, chimp grazing, wacker juggling, dung stinking, skunk
grabbing, shithead!
Do you see the difference?>
No, you probably don't.
Joseph B. W. Wilson
http://www.metista.com
Copyright 1999 Joseph B. W. Wilson
Crankyness is not just an act. It's a way of life!
Flora and Eric Floen
>
> Maqua was reading the paper by the fire, when he came acroos an
> article...and he read it:
>
> be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson) wrote:
> > <sigh> You still don't get it do you?
> >
> > Why are your beliefs so superior that they must oppress the beliefs of
> > other peoples in the world?
> >
>
>
> Imagine there's no heaven...
>
> > cultural traits of other peoples in the world?
>
> It's easy if you try...
>
> >
> > world so much that you mock them?
>
> No hell bellow us...
>
> >
> > What you are doing is different from those who come into a land and
> > kill the people in order to take it over only in that instead of
> > killing their bodies you are killing their cultural beliefs. It's
> > still murder.
>
> Above us only sky...
>
> >
> > But then, that doesn't matter does it? Because you have the one true
> > right and only way.
>
> Imagine all the people...
>
> >
> > Your illustrations are artificial and misleading. If the Netherlands
> > have a problem with Japan then take it up with Japan. Yes, your
> > country might benefit from some of the things sold in Japan. But
> > damned few Indians, if any at all, benefit from imitation Indian
> > artifacts made in Japan (or by some other non-Indian peoples) and sold
> > to the general populations in competition with similar articles made
> > by the native people themselves. Same goes for plastic's workshops.
> >
> > <sigh>
>
>
> ornaments, or if Indians make plastic Buddha's for that matter?)
>
> >
> > You may not think you are racist, but you sure are exhibiting the
> > traits.
> >
> > point out to you, and to others, the arrogance of the attitude you and
> > some others express.
> >
>
> Hmmm...looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
>
>
> Would you hold my honey pot for me?
>
FLORA drops pot and backs away, spooked, eyes wild. She is embearassed.
She is upset to be put in this position.
When two friends of hers try to put her in the middle of a fight she
walks away. Joe has not put me in this. Yet I was put between two
people I love.
That was mean, and beneath you, Maq.
*SPANK!*
She disappears, far beyond the reach of the light, mane obscuring her
face and expression, morphing back to pony shape, disappearing into
darkness.
> Thanks.
>
> *gives Joseph a gentle tip*
>
> *SPLAT*
>
> Oooh, he doo fall down into the dung good, don't he? :)
>
Don't look for me to post here for a couple of days.
I can't belive you said this, little brother. I guess that nobody can
disappoint you like your friends.
> Who wants to be king of the hill next? :)
>
> (Sorry, I did jump into this discussion...but that post, Joe, smacks of
> authority. More humble pie?)
>
Tears of shame on my face,
disappointment in my heart
taste of friendships sour.
FLORA
> Giggling,
> Maqua, the laughing Bear,
> Keeper of the sacred Bunt Cake Pan Bundle
>
Two Snakes
though, and I tell it from the heart, is mean mockery.
Joseph may not see it, Tsalagiwmn may not see it, you may not see it.
But I know why I wrote it, and I am beginning to understand why others do
not.
I am not doing it for a teaching, nor a mindfuck. But I am going with it
somewhere, and it is still sacred.
Maybe my previous posts did not state it, but I respect you Flora, and I
respect Tsalagiwmn, even if she fries my butt off with this.
But truth, I haven't mentioned anyone but the Dutch, and truth, I did imply
more.
melanie carroll
now ok dont shoot me till i stop ok?
i am not flaming nor am i being bolshy ok?
this is just a query and a question from little muttonhead and it may be
dumb, ok?
remember i love ya both.
but you both go on about cultures being stolen and refer it back to the NA's
as if there arent any others. now i know you both live in the usa so
tehrefore it is close to you. and i know we are in alt. sham etc and so
therefore the erroneous conclusion is NA=sham.
but why is it always na culture?
can i point out the irish? or even the scottish clans? or even the welsh? ok
not so much we english (although thanks to a norman invasion a few hundreds
ago anglo sax and pictish clans is now done and dusted). all of these do
have things in common with the na, and yes all of these too do also have
heritage issues in common with the na. yes even including forced
sterilization amongst other horrors and degradations.
joe you say about na items being usurped (and i am not disagreeing) and none
of it going back to the na's well can i just say shamrock, can i just say
tartan?
you see it is not just an na thing. there are others too.
flora yes i know ireland and eire are on the map, same to with wales and
scotland but not the individuals, not the clan names. NA jurisdictions may
not be on the american map but when most of us out here look at a map of usa
we do think NA. some of us even recognise that states have NA names. many
even know of reservations and trails of tears and persecutions. do most of
you do the same wehn you look at the map of GB? or do you just see it as
one?
do you recognise the cultural heritage that we have had borrowed and never
returned?
there are similiariites and yes differences but can we stop seeing the NA's
as the singularly most persecuted people. shamanism is not NA. persecution
is not NA.
both are a much bigger part of the whole global community and its history
and make up.
anyway thats all i have to say but please do respond. tell me where i am
wrong, show me so i may see. anyone can join in. ask questions and look
about, see where it is and where it isnt. look inwards as well as out. and
let me know. you can all mail me if ya want or castigate me in the group i
dont mind.
but just remember i love ya both and am only looking to learn and grow.
anyway love and laughter from your friendly muttonhead,
melanie
Flora and Eric Floen <floen...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37811A...@earthlink.net...
> CMTS,
> I understand that you don't understand, but the Dutch people are not
> being wiped out by anybody, or repressed.
>
> You are your own country, allowed to govern yourselves, have a place
> securely painted on the map, and nobody threatens to take it away from
> you. Nor does anybody threaten to take away your funny wooden shoes or
> Blue delft, and erase even the memory of it, forever.
>
> The petulance of this article is really not your usual syle, as you are
> usually a person willing to listen to another and consider their words
> seriously.
>
> T will only see this Post as mean spirited mockery. And You have not
> advanced yourself or your arguement in anyones eyes. The contrast
> between the dutch, who are very much recognised and secure in thier
> place, as whoring lechers, or as drug addicts, STILL get to be that, or
> anything else they wish, and are let alone to be so.
>
> The American First Nations are being wiped out and are not in the same
> position. Do you see thier territories on any map? It just isn't there
> like Holland is.
>
> Think about it.
>
> Blessings,
> FLORA
>
>
>
> > Funny thing though, no matter how much of Holland is known by
foreigners,
> > they still don't know a thing about us, besides that we are all whoring
> > drugaddicts with funny blue farmjackets and a dislike to leaking
bathtubs.
> > Ah well, guess we know better, now don't we?
> >
> > And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go
seek it
> > with yourself. Because it is sacred.
> >
StarrHawke
of those who understand and support sacred and cultural integrity.
Over the past many weeks, I have tried, really tried to be tolerant of
what seems like a commitment to ignorance on your part. You get some
of it... but you refuse to see the point. Good gawd.. you dont even
have to agree with it, or agree with the way others resolve the
issues. All anyone has asked is that you try and understand it, to see
that there ARE valid issues behind these stands.
Any number of us have sincerely and respectfully tried to discuss the
issues of cultural integrity with you. I regret wasting my time --
you've done little more than offer a very wordy troll, as far as I can
see, each of our responses falling on deaf ears, doing nothing more
than giving you a chance to again, state your position, with no more
understanding than you had the first time.. Your responses have come
across like someone sticking their fingers in their ears, and coming
back to the same refrain. You have claimed to be presenting "all
perspectives" -- but your responses continually show you're missing
out on a great number of perspectives, and have no interest in
recognizing them as valid.
All perspectives. Sheesh. You cannot seem to step down from your
position as all-seeing-all-knowing-snake-eyes to admit that there
might just be a perspective you've missed... But then, if you did
that, you might just find your own perspective and position changing.
Mine did. But then, I wasn't that commited to my view being
'correct'.
>And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek it
>with yourself. Because it is sacred.
And this.... this... gezeee..... how totally insulting. So many here
have spent their time writing respectfully to you, trying to explain
these issues..... and you make a mockery of it... and then try to
say "this is sacred, so go eF yourselves. "
>Love and Respect
>
>Crowman TwoSnakes
Your signature block is a mockery, in and of itself. amazing. truly.
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Jo
destruction and exploitation in too much these days. I must say I think the
guys on this NG are great, all of you. If anyone receives from the pagan or
wiccan NGs you'll know what I mean. It is a relief to post and read here
after that.
StarrHawke
Your use of the song "Imagine" here, implies exactly the same of
arrogance that Joseph was pointing out in Snakes. "The Peaceful Way
is the Right Way" is as much a One-And-Only-Truthism as saying "Join
My Church or Die"
You are still projecting your beliefs onto others, viewing them as the
superior beliefs.
BTW.. i happen to like the song... but not when brandished like a
wagging finger in someone's face.
<clipped>
>Sorry, I did jump into this discussion...but that post, Joe, smacks of
>authority. More humble pie?)
Yes.... speaking with confidence and knowledge and experience and
passion tends to smack of authority. It seems that is just about the
only behavior not tolerated in this newsgroup lately.
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Prairie Dog
Nita Byrd <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7lqug1$m2i$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Prairie Dog replies:
Nita Byrd I was talking about the gas stations in route to north Georgia
where the Cherokee sights are.
I do not know your friend and He or his store was not in my thoughts when I
wrote it.
Many Blessings
StarrHawke
Native culture is the one which ordinarily comes up in these
discussions for several reasons... the first being that this is
alt.religion.shamanism, and there is considerable confusion in the
world between Native American spirituality and shamanism (for any
lurkers, they are * not* the same) The second reason is that Indians
are fighting back... loudly and strongly defending their culture
against the active attempts to wipe them out.
European and "Celtic" traditions are running a close second in terms
of distortion... and trust me... we've had some doozy arguments on
that one, too. Protecting some of those traditions takes a very
personal turn with some of us, especially Joseph. He's seen his own
best intentions of turn against him.. seen teachings he was
entrusted with, and his own writings, and the writings of his peers
and friends, stolen and distorted.
I've talked with Jews who complain about people who are convinced the
Kabbahla is European. I've seen members of Afro-Caribean traditions
like Voudon and Santeria complain about the fakes and frauds and the
damage being done to their belief systems. Tibetian Buddhism,
Austrialian Aborigines, Peruvian Natives, the Mayans, the remnants of
family tradition in Europe --- all being over run by the wannabes and
the pretenders, who do not seem to realize that the greed of their
spiritual hunger is destroying the very thing they are seeking... the
Old Ways, the Old Religions, the ways of the Ancestors.
And that disrespect and damage causes these people, in turn, to become
cynical, prejudicial, and bigotted. So no.. it is not just a Native
problem. It's a world problem.
Starr`
*^v^*
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Nita Byrd
Prairie Dog <pdo...@metista.com> wrote in message > Nita Byrd < >
> Prairie Dog replies:
> Nita Byrd I was talking about the gas stations in route to north Georgia
> where the Cherokee sights are.
> I do not know your friend and He or his store was not in my thoughts when
I
> wrote it.
OK, PD. I was just making sure :) The temperature here today was 104
degrees, how's your weather?
Nita :)
StarrHawke
>> The tarot works for me as being the archetypes, images of mind and spirit,
>> that I lack. IMO there is really no negative tarotcards, only aspects of our
>> qualities and weaknesses that we can learn more about from the tarot. To me
>> they're more like a roadmap of our lives.
>>
>> In friendship and respect... Kent-Erik
Flora:
>Ok, now I am gonna swing this conversation about Tarot around and
>explain whay I think it has a place here on a Shamanism NG.
And Starry inserts her two cents, glad for a thread that isnt making
her blood boil :)
I was taught to approach the Tarot with each card as a Spirit, in and
of itself. Each card, each image, a mask for an archetypal force.
They can be journeyed to, spoken with, asked for help, and so
forth.... and many decks have their own realms in the Otherworlds.
<clip of interesting observations about story telling via tarot, as a
means of objective counsel>
>And objective counsel is a very important function of a Shamanic
>practicioner, and that is whay it is much better to serve a certain
>community and a certain people well-known to the practicioner. It makes
>their job much easier, tho far less magical. The Ol'Man taught me from
>the first to read people and the common dynamic of certain situations.
>Helps with readings, too.
One of the first things I learned was to speak the language of the
person I was working with, to move into their realm of symbolism, to
hear what they were really saying, no matter how nuts they sounded in
my own language. I'm not nearly as proficient in that as the person
who taught me.. but systems like the Tarot help immensely, since the
Spirits themselves can tell the story through influencing the way the
pictures are percieved.
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
StarrHawke
I didn't makeit very clear who the "us" i kept refering to in this
post is. I know it includes Joseph, myself, and several others on
this ng.... and a lot of others off of it.<smile> It wasnt intended
to speak for the ng itself, of course, or for all of those discussing
cultural integrity. Just thought I'd better clarify that :)
Me
*^v^*
On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:37:58 GMT, starr...@metista.com (StarrHawke)
wrote:
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Two Snakes
for himself, nothing I have to do about it.
But, you do seem to be very focussed on genitals, what does that say about
you?
Funny though, first you say Halleluja as reply to a post of mine, and now
you consider me flaming and without respect. Aren't you quite the conclusion
jumper now?
Two Snakes
why blame the post you read? Or the one who wrote it?
Or insult the ones with a different opinion than your own?
Isn't that also part of what 'respect' is all about?
Two Snakes
StarrHawke wrote in message <37818ef2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>European and "Celtic" traditions are running a close second in terms
>of distortion... and trust me... we've had some doozy arguments on
>that one, too. Protecting some of those traditions takes a very
>personal turn with some of us, especially Joseph. He's seen his own
>best intentions of turn against him.. seen teachings he was
>entrusted with, and his own writings, and the writings of his peers
>and friends, stolen and distorted.
>
>And that disrespect and damage causes these people, in turn, to become
>cynical, prejudicial, and bigotted. So no.. it is not just a Native
>problem. It's a world problem.
>
>Starr`
>*^v^*
>
>
Close second? Starr, truth now, do you really believe this? Did you really
mean it as this?
I know you find my claim of ' being respectfull' rather questionable
(understatement?), but it is from the heart, my heart.
Two Snakes
StarrHawke wrote in message <37817a05...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>Snakes, what you have written here reads like a purposeful mockery
>of those who understand and support sacred and cultural integrity.
>Over the past many weeks, I have tried, really tried to be tolerant of
>what seems like a commitment to ignorance on your part. You get some
>of it... but you refuse to see the point. Good gawd.. you dont even
>have to agree with it, or agree with the way others resolve the
>issues. All anyone has asked is that you try and understand it, to see
>that there ARE valid issues behind these stands.
>
Sorry if you feel that way, and I do thank you for your patience, but if it
is done from tolerance, than I was serioulsy mistaking your intent.
It may seem many things, and all anyone asks it that I should try and
understand their view. That's cool, I do that, and I do understand and I
have learned quite a bit. Mainly that respect is within and expresses in two
ways.
Have you asked, directly, what I mean with a post of mine that makes your
blood boil?
What do you think the insult is?
>Any number of us have sincerely and respectfully tried to discuss the
>issues of cultural integrity with you. I regret wasting my time --
>you've done little more than offer a very wordy troll, as far as I can
>see, each of our responses falling on deaf ears, doing nothing more
>than giving you a chance to again, state your position, with no more
>understanding than you had the first time.. Your responses have come
>across like someone sticking their fingers in their ears, and coming
>back to the same refrain. You have claimed to be presenting "all
>perspectives" -- but your responses continually show you're missing
>out on a great number of perspectives, and have no interest in
>recognizing them as valid.
>
Starr, something I really do not understand, is that you state the I've done
little more than being a wordy, okay, very wordy troll. Yet how does that
relate to the post I wrote ('who is the racist') in which you state you know
I understand respect? Have you made the error, or have I?
>>And for any of you who take this to be upsetting themselves with, go seek
it
>>with yourself. Because it is sacred.
>
>And this.... this... gezeee..... how totally insulting. So many here
>have spent their time writing respectfully to you, trying to explain
>these issues..... and you make a mockery of it... and then try to
>say "this is sacred, so go eF yourselves. "
>
Okay, I'll state it better, 'seek it within yourself', because it is sacred
Love and Respect
(oh, and I am not using an automated message block, not now, not after, not
before, I want to write the words personally, as they are meant)
Crowman TwoSnakes
StarrHawke
wrote:
>
>StarrHawke wrote in message <37818ef2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>>European and "Celtic" traditions are running a close second in terms
>>of distortion... and trust me... we've had some doozy arguments on
>>that one, too. Protecting some of those traditions takes a very
>>personal turn with some of us, especially Joseph. He's seen his own
>>best intentions of turn against him.. seen teachings he was
>>entrusted with, and his own writings, and the writings of his peers
>>and friends, stolen and distorted.
>>
>
>>And that disrespect and damage causes these people, in turn, to become
>>cynical, prejudicial, and bigotted. So no.. it is not just a Native
>>problem. It's a world problem.
>>
>>Starr`
>>*^v^*
>>
>>
>
>Close second? Starr, truth now, do you really believe this? Did you really
>mean it as this?
What are you questioning here? That the Old Ways of Europe are
threatened, or my ranking of a "close second"? Is that question the
only thing you really got from my post?
By all means.. if you want to rank the wannabe-witches-and-druid types
#1 in disrespect and cultural theft, be my guest. But somehow I find
it difficult to believe that was your point. If you were aware of
what has happened to those traditions in the past.. and what is
happening to the living remnants of those traditions today... I'd
think you'd be a little more understanding of those who feel the need
to hold sacred things tucked away out of the sight of those who would
destroy them.
>I know you find my claim of ' being respectfull' rather questionable
>(understatement?), but it is from the heart, my heart.
I understand it is from your heart -- but even the best, most
heartfelt intentions fall short. If a person feels disrespected by
your best intentions to be respectful..... don't ya think ya might
just TRY to understand why, and change your approach?
To KNOW that others find you disrespectful, yet to ignore that,
telling them their feelings are their problem (which is what you have
done).... well... that simply isnt very respectful of them,now is it?
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
StarrHawke
>Have you asked, directly, what I mean with a post of mine that makes your
>blood boil?
Yes, I'm pretty sure I did.
>What do you think the insult is?
I thought I made that pretty clear, too.
The rest of this isnt worth my time.
StarrHawke
_______________
www.metista.com
_______________
Two Snakes
StarrHawke wrote in message <37820d3d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:07:36 +0200, "Two Snakes" <Jer...@bertus.com>
>wrote:
>
>>q. If you are so irritated and insulted by what you perceive to be a
flame,
>>why blame the post you read? Or the one who wrote it?
>>Or insult the ones with a different opinion than your own?
>>
>>Isn't that also part of what 'respect' is all about?
>>
>>
>>Crowman TwoSnakes
>
>lesson of "you are only angry because you allow it". DONT YOU THINK
>SOME OF US KNOW THAT??? Did it ever occur to you that we CHOOSE it?
>
Yes, it never left my mind.
>Are you yet another psuedo-zen type, fixated on releasing attachment
>to emotions? Has it never occured to you that just as a Bodhisvahta
>chooses to return from enlightenment out of compassion, one can also
>CHOOSE to be emotional, to be angry at things which increase
>suffering? That anger can increase effectiveness in combatting
>suffering? Did it never occur to you that there are some forms of
>suffering so great that it is impossible to release the attachments
>until the suffering is relieved on THIS plane?
>
Like I said, it never left my mind.
>StarrHawke
>_______________
StarrHawke, I am not deliberately trying to piss you off, although it does
very much seem like so. I am going somewhere with this, but it will have to
wait a little longer.
q
Two Snakes wrote:
> You have a problem with Snake, Snake will damn sure sort that out with you
> for himself, nothing I have to do about it.
LOLOLOL
Mama Serpent and I have had more than a few forays together and there are always
snakes about here - as someone said previously, get to know all aspects of the
animal
it's not the physical or spirit animals I have a problem with - it's the human
pseudosnake - the ones who puff and spit
and you think you *could* sort me out ............... LOLOL
>
> But, you do seem to be very focussed on genitals, what does that say about
> you?
says I can see more than those shimmering scales
>
> Funny though, first you say Halleluja as reply to a post of mine, and now
> you consider me flaming and without respect. Aren't you quite the conclusion
> jumper now?
you mean this one :
> Two Snakes wrote:
>
> > Any gift that is not given in freedom, is not a gift, but a link in a chain.
>
> >
>
> that's the one - the point - hallelujah
>
>
<chuckle> TsalagiWmn pointed this out to you - and you puffed and spit at her -
now you use this to advise someone else - why ? because you understand basic
integrity or because it's useful when you want it to be - when it doesn't have
to apply to your own actions
> Love and Respect
>
oh puhleeeeeze
until now, I have spoken to you quietly, asking questions , asking for
clarifications - others have written sincerely, sometimes beautifully- and your
response is mockery
the snake can capture a few molecules on its tongue, bring it into its mouth and
smell the air - unlike the snake, I need a few more than that and I'll retest
the air several times - but I don't need snake's help to smell this
so be it - I'm sure we'll get many megs of word salad in response
and a few more comments - hey - you can stop reading anytime .........
at intervals, the snakes skin becomes dull and dry - the skin no longer serves
it's purpose as it is - the snake puffs a bit and extends itself until the skin
cracks slighty - it can then, with the help of a handy rock or branch, slide out
from under that lifeless skin, shining and ready to hunt further - and as it
hunts and feeds and becomes sated, the process begins again
when we become overfull of ourselves or are no longer nourished by the skin we
wear, can also shed our past the way the snake sheds its skin - our
preconceptions, our limitations - each time, a little more-until we shed the
body itself
( we can also change thepast from the present and the now from the future, but
that's another snake story)
when the skin is shed, the colouring becomes more vibrant - but the essential
colouring stays the same - the true colours of the snake
and before I go on about all the wonders of the snake ( and I can go on <g>),
I'll end here
if you claim snake in your name - then fer )(&*^) sake, use it truly
q
q
> q. If you are so irritated and insulted by what you perceive to be a flame,
> why blame the post you read? Or the one who wrote it?
> Or insult the ones with a different opinion than your own?
ok- so what is the question here ? am I saying 'bwa-haa' *you* made*me*mad*
with my post ? is that the question ? answer is no - you and Maq didn't *make*
me angry - I can choose to do that all on my own, thanks - and sometimes,
despite the latest best seller on the 12 steps to coma, expressed anger is just
the thing
(stay tuned for q's latest- Sanity and Salvation Through Sage and Spirits - the
cookbook for the millenium )
is the question - 'q, do ya think you misread and misunderstood the post Maqua
made saying that Joseph Wilson belongs in a dung heap ?' answer - duh, nope
is the question 'q, do ya think you 'blamed' the wrong person or entity ?'
well, we could get into some spouting about defining 'blame' and for what and
how it's assigned - if this is the question, please redefine it
as for insulting those with different opinions - lol - much of what I've read
differs from my opinion - don't see too many scorch marks inflicted by me - and
those that have been, had a confined specific line - I rarely do blanket
bombing
>
>
> Isn't that also part of what 'respect' is all about?
ahhhhhhhh - the Humpty Dumpty game - words will mean what I want - nothing more
nothing less
nope - I like words - I like the way they taste and feel and all the shades and
hues and textures they evoke
or is it the I'm more enlightened than you game ?
<sigh>
or is the question'what is opinion and what is trash or flame?'
( there is the most wonderful prose about questions by Rainer Maria Rilke -
wish I could lay my hands on it)
so here'sa question - anyone can play
some people 'claim'certain animals - how do you see yourself or others, using
the attributes of that animal ?
do you use snake eyes ? or the great dexterity of the bear in scooping a salmon
from the river ? when ? how ?
lolol
q
Joseph B. W. Wilson
skribis:
<clip>
>
>StarrHawke, I am not deliberately trying to piss you off, although it does
>very much seem like so. I am going somewhere with this, but it will have to
>wait a little longer.
>
>Love and Respect
>
>Crowman TwoSnakes
>
Oh Great Enlightened One, please, we beg of you, share your
Enlightened wisdom with us, so that we too may know the Truth which
has eluded us througout our countless lives, and which only you, by
the grace of the All Knowing, have been given.We grovel at your all
knowing feet and pray that you grant us the Wisdom of the Ages so that
we may take it to the unenlightened savages of the world.
Geeze, guy, you sound more and more like Tim every day.
Maqua
Why does this look like an unfair tag-team match?
Why does the phrase, "Pot calling the kettle black" keep poping in my
mind?
Crowman perhaps has a more eloquent writing style when it comes to
posting...I see that he shares his p.o.v. and moves on, and generally
takes the bad lumps with the good ones fairly well.
Do I hear a conflict of ego's? I don't think he's trying to steal your
thunder, but then again...is there a place in this or any ng for someone
who likes to shake their thunder around?
Kinda like masturbating with a cheese-grater, don't ya think?
It's kinda groovy at first, but in the end you're loosing a lot more
than you're gaining...and it's kinda like cutting off your nose to spite
your face....
*tsk tsk*
Prairie Dog
>
> OK, PD. I was just making sure :) The temperature here today was 104
> degrees, how's your weather?
>
> Nita :)
Well it is 97 outside and after reading all the post that were way up on
this thread I think it is hotter up there <giggle>.
If you or your Cherokee friend saw the stores I am talking about (He
probably has) you would know why I posted that. I was in a store near
Alabama that had lots of hand made stuff like Turtle shell breast plates and
walking sticks with $100.00 and above price tags on them. When I asked "what
tribe" the store owner said they were Cherokee. When I asked who made them
he said "my son does". I asked if he was Cherokee and how he knew what
design to use. He replied "I do not know ........ My son made them." Then he
got real funny. I think he thought I was from the A.I.M. or something. He
told me that they were no longer for sale. I had to smile.
I have a fox mandala that hangs on my wall. I paid a lot for it and was
glad to spend the money. I bought it from a twinke store and here is why. I
asked "what tribe" and the store owner laughed. He said "No tribe at all it
is just made for looks like art". Looking at the way it was made I said
"This guy knows his stuff" The store owner laughed again and said "I do not
know anything about him. He is a bit weird but people love his work." SOLD!
The term Native American or Indian never came up. And now as I look up at it
there is nothing Indian about it. The Tandy Leather one I made for myself is
probably more of a rip off. <G>
melanie carroll
well said.
i like anger in the right context. i choose to embrace anger in the right
circumstance. to reject anger is to reject emotion and life and also love.
to reject anger is not to become enlightened but to become other than what
we are. basic human animals with emotions and instincts.
anger denotes an ability to feel and that denotes an ability to grow. and
anger is a choice yes, but it is also a reaction. when provoked anger is not
a choice, it is a result of our limbic brain regions, it is a response to
adrenalin coursing into the body, it is a fight or flight reaction.
so therefore although as logical beings we may say it is a choice, at heart
we have to concede it is not. your words and actions are tools that can
inflict upon others. if i hit you with a whip is your reaction not my doing?
think about it.
just my ideas, as i have said i am a muttonhead and so i am close to my
reactions.
love and laughter
melanie
StarrHawke <starr...@metista.com> wrote in message
news:37820d3d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
>
> >q. If you are so irritated and insulted by what you perceive to be a
flame,
> >why blame the post you read? Or the one who wrote it?
> >Or insult the ones with a different opinion than your own?
> >
> >
> >
> >Crowman TwoSnakes
>
> lesson of "you are only angry because you allow it". DONT YOU THINK
> SOME OF US KNOW THAT??? Did it ever occur to you that we CHOOSE it?
>
> to emotions? Has it never occured to you that just as a Bodhisvahta
> chooses to return from enlightenment out of compassion, one can also
> CHOOSE to be emotional, to be angry at things which increase
> suffering? That anger can increase effectiveness in combatting
> suffering? Did it never occur to you that there are some forms of
> suffering so great that it is impossible to release the attachments
> until the suffering is relieved on THIS plane?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________
>
> www.metista.com
> _______________
Nita Byrd
Prairie Dog < >
> >
> > OK, PD. I was just making sure :) The temperature here today was 104
> > degrees, how's your weather?
> >
> > Nita :)
>
>
> Well it is 97 outside and after reading all the post that were way up on
> this thread I think it is hotter up there <giggle>.
For sure! Hotter than hot, and very uncomfortable right now.
> If you or your Cherokee friend saw the stores I am talking about (He
> probably has) you would know why I posted that.
I believe ya. I've seen similar, even in a tribe's store, for heaven's
sake! The name of the tribe is very long, it was a store in a historic area
near Houston, where different nationalities like, German, Indian, and
British stores did business. Now the Indian store had some original Indian
crafts and art, in fact there was a beautiful horse wooden wall hanging in a
frame that my sister's companion later bought for her as a Christmas
present, after she saw it when we shopped in the store. It was an original
artwork by the brother of the cashier, who was obviously from the tribe.
But there was a rack of those cheap fluffy, cotton- like feather war bonnets
that were obviously tourist junk, labeled made in China or Taiwan, can't
remember which, and I've seen them in other places and they all look alike.
My sister and I were far more discerning, and we both came away happy!
I was in a store near
> Alabama that had lots of hand made stuff like Turtle shell breast plates
and
> walking sticks with $100.00 and above price tags on them. When I asked
"what
> tribe" the store owner said they were Cherokee. When I asked who made them
> he said "my son does". I asked if he was Cherokee and how he knew what
> design to use. He replied "I do not know ........ My son made them." Then
he
> got real funny. I think he thought I was from the A.I.M. or something. He
> told me that they were no longer for sale. I had to smile.
Boy, that's a give-away, huh, just a rip-off because those things couldn't
have been authentic reproductions even, crafted with love and pride, by a
person of the Cherokee family.
> I have a fox mandala that hangs on my wall. I paid a lot for it and
was
> glad to spend the money. I bought it from a twinke store and here is why.
I
> asked "what tribe" and the store owner laughed. He said "No tribe at all
it
> is just made for looks like art". Looking at the way it was made I said
> "This guy knows his stuff" The store owner laughed again and said "I do
not
> know anything about him. He is a bit weird but people love his work."
SOLD!
> The term Native American or Indian never came up. And now as I look up at
it
> there is nothing Indian about it. The Tandy Leather one I made for myself
is
> probably more of a rip off. <G>
Heh heh. I mentioned before that I bought a synthetic drum that has a great
sound, and so I love it, but I know fully well it aint an Indian made one.
However, the make of it is called, Remo Buffalo! It has a truly deep and
resonant tone. But then, I don't go to a NA Indian drumming circle. I
attend an Inka drumming circle :)
>
> Many Blessings
> Yes, same to you to, PD
Nita
[:Kent-Erik:]
>
< snipped a lot of patriotic stuff >
I can not really understand all this you have written here. Are you
seriously comparing the Dutch traditions and culture with the NA-cultures as
being abused and distorted. Well, I 'll be danmned if I can...
To me that would mean that I would be comparing the swedish traditions and
culture to the Samii's, which differs a lot. It would be like saying that
the japanesee stolen the rights to manufacture and sell the swedish painted
woodenhorses from Dalcarelia, when in fact the dalcarelians themselves sold
the rights to the japanesee to produce them, beacuse the labour is cheaper
in Japan than in Sweden. Later they are shipped back to Sweden and sold as
genuine artwork.
I have earlier in a reply to Bill stated why I do not try to appropriate the
Samii' religion or artwork. This would be so easy to do, beacuse it is all
over the place already. Sold and manufactured by several others than the
Samii themselves. And those beautiful little dolls all dressed in
Samii-clothing, that can be bought at fairs, where are they made... In
Taiwan.
One genuine swedish product that was stolen..err... copied, the Swedish
safety match, where is it made?... on an little island outside Japan, named
"Sweden", so no one could claim that they trespassed any copyright laws....
"made in Sweden"
Today, there is a lot of Germans and people from the BeNeLux.countries that
has bought a lot of land in Sweden, to be able to spend time in Sweden on
vacations and such. They have with their money almost destroyed and
distorted one sacred thing that is left in Sweden, the "Right of Common", a
law that promises everyone to thread freely wherever they like as long it is
not disturbing the peace of the landowners or animals, and destroying the
crops. These gentlemen of wealth and pride has propagated and tried to imply
this law to suit their needs....
Crowman. I seldom say these things, but your post is ...... nah, it is not
worth it... You may post as you like, but from no on, please, disregard my
posts to the NG. I am sure that you had some hidden intention to post as you
did, and so on... making people I have come to love and respect saddened,
only because youf felt you had the right to. Well, what can I say. I for one
has propagated for the freedom of expression, allowing everyone to post as
we feel. Guess you proved me dead-wrong in this.... So please, pay no
attention in the future on my posts, and I promise I will do you the same
honor...
I am sorry that I got upset... but that is my problem
Kent-Erik
Lorraine Poole
<j...@the-shades-1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On a side note, you mention Mojo and medecine pouches. Before I began to
>learn about shamanism I used to work intuitively and one thing I 'invented'
>was a charm pouch. I would listen to what a person had to say about their
>troubles or requests and then sew up a tiny linen pouch and put in it stones
>and herbs for that person alone. I picked the items by 'feel' and I received
>positive feedback from those who got the pouches. Now I didn'y know what a
>NA medecine pouch looked like. I'm sure I must have heard of the things at
>some time but I felt I was working from my own Hedgewitch nature. Am I
>wrong?
No, you're not wrong at all, Jo, because you weren't intending the
deceive and present those pouches as Native American, but as gifts
from your own spirit and heart. Little spells/prayers like these are a
common practice everywhere. I sometimes make up little pouches for
people, and I've made dream catchers when asked (I don't count myself
as very good at them, but they are always made for that person alone,
and from my intuitive feelings). People like to call them dream
catchers, but I feel it's the intent and need of the person themselves
which invests any 'power' into them.
Don't start to doubt what comes from your heart because someone *may*
say - 'That looks like an NA medicine pouch'. *You* know it's not,
and can tell them so, just as you make your dream catchers and call
them your own. You could call them something like 'Thought Filters'!
Hmm... *there's* an idea!
Blessings,
Lorraine
q
I enjoyed reading your posts on your use of Tarot . This is something I know
little about. I have a deck, but I find it so complex, I seem to get lost - and
<g> I've never had anyone teach me. Are there individual differences in how well
some decks are read ? aresome decks better suited to some readers rather than
others ?
I use rocks - all rocks that I've found and who have agreed or volunteered to
work with me ( and sometimes they change their 'minds' <g>)
"[:Kent-Erik:]" wrote:
>
> I use the tarot only to point out hidden and/or overlooked qualities that we
> are born with. Never to tell anyones fortune or lovelife etc... that's
> unimportant to me since I know that everyone can achieve what's in their
> minds if they only are aware of who they are... and the tarot help me read
> the Q'er in another way, beacuse when they are occupied with looking at the
> cards, I can take a closer look at them and compare this with what can be
> found in the tarot... :-)
when I use the rocks, their cracks and indentations and markings form themselves
into shapes and symbols - ocassionally my symbols - more usually, the symbols of
the querent - though I may have thoughts about what some of these mean, they are
usually far very specific to the querent - andprovide the same kind of sense -
qualities of the person - and it leaves a lot to the individual's interpretation
the last time I did a reading, I saw a white stag without legs -it was tempting
to interpret this in all kinds of ways ( for me - gee a stag and gee - no legs
<g> ) - it turned out this was something the person had seen in his last
journey and it allowed him to both explorethe meaning and lend more credence to
some doubts he hadabout his journey and his healing
before, those cracks in the rock had formed very different pictures
>
> Flora and Eric Floen skrev i meddelandet
> <377EAC...@earthlink.net>...
> >[:Kent-Erik:] wrote:
> >>
>
> It is important to keep in mind that the tarot itself has no power. Instead
> it is my own knowledge about and associations of the symbols and the figures
> in the tarot that forms a force or a power. The tarot itself only "scan" the
> present state of mind and energy, on a conscius aswell as subconscius level.
> When I look at the tarot and interpret them, my conscius level and the
> unconscius' interacts. The images and associations that appears in the
> interpretation corresponds to the processes I need to work on. In other
> words, it's always the right card that emerges.
>
> What's important to understand is that the cards can be interpreted in a
> variety of different levels, depending of i.e. type of question or
> concentration at the moment. It is also important to have in mind that our
> own conscius is constantly changing focus; that's why the same question
> gives different answers at different occations, in spite that the
> circumstances doesn't seem to have changed.
with the exception of working with specific pictures or symbols, this very much
describes the rock work
don't know if it's on topic, but I would very much enjoy hearing / discussing
more
q
with the sticky space bar
< the following fascinating stuff left unsnipped >
>
>
> To me the card Death represents as it says death, but _not_ physical. It
> represents the death of our ego, e.g. transformation, to develope our
> ability to endure serious changes of our self. Without changes there is no
> room for progress. We have to dare leaving everything that doesn't support
> developing ourselves. Since our ego is our front, our shell, to protect us
> from the outside world, the mask we're holding up towards others, it will
> collapse when we go through serious changes in life. Our ego's defence is to
> cling to what is achieved and don't let go. That's what makes all serious
> changes in life connected to pain - the pain of our ego, and makes us feel
> like we're going to die.
>
> To me the Tower represents our own mental prison, built with walls of
> self-righteousness, and created to make us rise above our fellowhumans and
> appear closer to divinity. It might be considered the beginning of the end.
> When lightning strikes, read truth is revealed to us, the human brain
> becomes liberated of all unnecessary conscius thoughts and the spirit can
> begin descending into matter. Now it is important to remember that
> everything that happens is for a better cause. Literary speaking, an
> awakening or revelation occurs that brings us to our sences. Like ripples in
> the water every change leads to another until a total transformation has
> happened. When "The Tower" is finished, there is nothing left to be afraid
> of or worry about. Instead this will lead us to be more humble and start
> building a new life on a ground based upon more solid values of life than
> before.
>
> >> To admit our dark sides does not imply that we have to or shall
> >> outlive/tolerate outrage, cruelty or violence without restraint. Instead
> >> it is important to realize............
> >><snippage for brevity>
>
> >I would call these "methods of dark side management." You see it, and
> >then, you decide which way you think you want to use to "handle" this
> >thing, that you now realize you got on your hands.
>
> Yes, I agree again. For me it has been to try and find a way to use the dark
> force in a positive way. Like when one is really upset, and feel like kick
> someone in the rear end. Well, at those times I found out that doing
> ordinary housework tends to be much easier. the furniture is much less heavy
>
> >> The physical and spiritual levels has to be connected so that energies
> >> can flow freely. But our attention can and will be focused towards one
> >> or the other at times. Shear denial of one or the other is "the work of
> >> the Devil". For one side to grow, the other has to develop. Compare this
> >
> >Ooooh this is SO true!
> >
> >> statement with a growing tree; for the foliage to grow big and strong
> >> the spirit, our higher conscius ) the roots ( physical level, our
> >> materialistic urges ) also has to develop and transform.
> >>
> >> The theme of XV.Devil is developing our free will, which we have been
> >> made aware of earlier. There's an obvious connection between sin and
> >> freedom, but also between sin and development. The conditions of
> >> knowledge are nonpartial to good or evil.
> >>
> >and to see it reversed means release from Bondage, mental or spiritual.
> >
> >> It's interesting that this cards comes so late in our chain of
> >> development. Why haven't we meet him earlier? Probably because we.....
> >> <snipped for brevity>
> >>
> >> as always ... Kent-Erik
> >
> >This was a good post, I loved it... I like your take on the major
> >Arcana, as the stages of development. I agree, and like the way you
> >integrate your philosophy into your readings...
> >
> >FLORA
>
> Finaly... Thank you, Flora. You are used to me using the tarot sometimes to
> explain my POV by now. But to the new ones and lurkers I once again say...
>
> Please don't be offended, it wasn't intended. The fact is that I'm very
> interested in the tarot, and I use them when I feel that I can make a point.
Mr. Bigg
Bigg
Joseph B. W. Wilson wrote in message
<3781564a...@news.netonecom.net>...
>On Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:06:54 GMT, Maqua <mah...@my-deja.com> skribis:
>>No, Maqua. That was not a flame. This is a flame:
>
>You trash stinking, chimp burping, pig watching, crab wallowing, bung
falating, pig smelling, barf spewing, prick holding, weasel pukeing toad
feeding, ooze slurping, worm licking, phlegm gargling, prick poking, pimple
squealing, mold basting, grandpa grasping, gay feeding, dick feeling, tramp
burping, hog pumping, urine smelling, mold squealing, puke smoking, scum
porking, dump burping, fish wallowing, maggot sucking, ass worshipping,
monkey screwing, clown falating, fish staring, toilet burping, dirt
belching, worm smelling, nut burping, elephant clawing, daddy undulating,
homo spewing, chimp scratching, crack chewing, acne sucking, daddy eating,
mold jumping, hog screwing, skunk swallowing, chipmunk clawing, faggot
pukeing, ooze wallowing, scum pumping, nad caressing, dog fondling, walrus
frenching, squirrel lusting, sheep hugging, crap burping, booger spewing,
daddy worshipping, puss blowing, fungus munching, chimp basting, walrus
sucking, mold frenching, chimp jerking, pig sucking, bum smoking, toad
hugging, chipmunk wacking, daddy fondling, rabbit feeding, trash chewing,
daddy snatching, camel caressing, dog spewing, slime feeding,
>vomit twitching, piss grabbing, tramp smelling, fag spewing, toad
>belching, dirt undulating, prick falating, booger feeling, cock
>watching, barf smoking, ooze frenching, squirrel scarfing, prick
>caressing, grandma pumping, rabbit smelling, pig basting, urine
>grazing, faggot drooling, grandma worshipping, puss copping, weasel
>slurping, chimp grazing, wacker juggling, dung stinking, skunk
>grabbing, shithead!
>
>Do you see the difference?>
>
>No, you probably don't.
>
>Joseph B. W. Wilson
>http://www.metista.com
>Copyright 1999 Joseph B. W. Wilson
>
>Crankyness is not just an act. It's a way of life!
>
Joseph B. W. Wilson
<clip>
>
>Why does this look like an unfair tag-team match?
>
Because you can't tell the diference?
>Why does the phrase, "Pot calling the kettle black" keep poping in my
>mind?
>
Because you can't tell the difference?
>Crowman perhaps has a more eloquent writing style when it comes to
>posting...I see that he shares his p.o.v. and moves on, and generally
>takes the bad lumps with the good ones fairly well.
>
No, he doesn't move on. You think that's eloquent? Maybe you should go
back to school and take some writing classes.
>Do I hear a conflict of ego's? I don't think he's trying to steal your
>thunder, but then again...is there a place in this or any ng for someone
>who likes to shake their thunder around?
>
>Kinda like masturbating with a cheese-grater, don't ya think?
>
I suppose you might have experience in that, I certainly haven't.
>It's kinda groovy at first, but in the end you're loosing a lot more
>than you're gaining...and it's kinda like cutting off your nose to spite
>your face....
>
>*tsk tsk*
>
Ya know, Maqua, it sounds to me like you have been having private
little email exchanges with Tim and have had your mind very confused
by somebody who is obviously off his meds. Bet he's doing that with
lots of people.
Joseph B. W. Wilson
skribis:
<clip>
>
> Don't start to doubt what comes from your heart because someone *may*
>say - 'That looks like an NA medicine pouch'. *You* know it's not,
>and can tell them so, just as you make your dream catchers and call
>them your own. You could call them something like 'Thought Filters'!
>Hmm... *there's* an idea!
>
Hmm. Magic Webs would be kinda a neat name too.
q
> In article <37823e6f...@news.netonecom.net>,
> be...@metista.com (Joseph B. W. Wilson) wrote:
> > On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:19:39 +0200, "Two Snakes" <Jer...@bertus.com>
> > skribis:
> >
> > >StarrHawke, I am not deliberately trying to piss you off, although it
> does
> > >very much seem like so. I am going somewhere with this, but it will
> have to
> > >wait a little longer.
>
> > >Crowman TwoSnakes
> > >
> >
> > Oh Great Enlightened One, please, we beg of you, share your
> > Enlightened wisdom with us,
> >
> > Geeze, guy, you sound more and more like Tim every day.
> >
> > Joseph B. W. Wilson
> >
> >
>
> Why does this look like an unfair tag-team match?
dunno - why does it look that way to you Maqua ? are we only supposed to
respond one at a time ? what if I had the same reaction as Joseph - what
signal do I wait for before commenting - the drop of a smore or honey pot (
'course you know what else 'honey pot' is a colloquial phrase for ) ? what
if Iwas waiting breathlessly for Jeroend's revelation and wanted evryone to
shut up until he was ready to come forth - am I ganging up on Starr and Joe
? what if I like my smores with marshmallow creme 'stead of marshmallows ?
>
> Why does the phrase, "Pot calling the kettle black" keep poping in my
> mind?
ummmmmm...........hmmmmmmmmmm..........is this an invitation to read Maqua's
mind ? ummmmm a dearth of metaphor ? obsessive thinking ? Divine inspiration
? from a Divine with obsessive thinking patterns and a dearth of metaphoric
possibilities ?
> Crowman perhaps has a more eloquent writing style when it comes to
> posting...I see that he shares his p.o.v. and moves on, and generally
> takes the bad lumps with the good ones fairly well.
now this is a tough one to respond to 'cause I haveno interest in commenting
on Jeroend's writing style - now if *he* said that he made his pov and moved
on, I could, if so moved, respond
just another case of differing opinions and perhaps extent of literature
perusal
> Do I hear a conflict of ego's? I don't think he's trying to steal your
> thunder, but then again...is there a place in this or any ng for someone
> who likes to shake their thunder around?
it's unmoderated - you can shake your thunder or your hemmorhoids ( then
again, if most of the convo is about piles, the owners canshut the ng down
as no longer serving its stated mandate)
q's a little near-sighted ( or is it far-sighted ?) - I didn't see any
thunder stealing - not even borrowing - sarcasm is ego ? and you have set us
all straight by ........?
ok- digression -
ego - people are bitching about ego - its supposed to be such a bad thing (
non tm ) - never mind defining a shaman - i hear the label ego more than I
hear shaman - what is ego to you ? - why is it an insult to have ego ?
ego is not some nasty, dirty part you need to excise
ego is not speaking from experience and authority ( oh right - authority is
another Bad Word (tm) )
what would you be if all your ego went pffffffft - are you practicing
non-attachment ?
> Kinda like masturbating with a cheese-grater, don't ya think?
>
> It's kinda groovy at first, but in the end you're loosing a lot more
> than you're gaining...and it's kinda like cutting off your nose to spite
> your face....
never tried it - have no interest in it - not into the sub side of s/m- you
coming out some more ? whatever dings your dong ! enjoy !
> *tsk tsk*
hmmmm - tsk tsk after a cheese grater - that's amazing restraint
> Giggling,
> Maqua, the laughing Bear,
hey Maq,
have you read Tich Nhat ? Homer Simpson ? how do you discern the difference?
how 'bout if you meet someone talking about voices and missions - can you
discern the spirit-talker, the mystic and the paranoid schizophrenic ?
what claims do you believe and why ?
what if someone whispers in your ear and says - hey Maq - you're a cool bear
- you're real spiritual - see that guy over there - he's full of <spit> ego
- go get 'im Maq - how do you know which one is reporting to the mothership
when you read something and your bear hackles rise and your tummy gets
tight, how do you know whether you're reacting to an asshole in print or an
asshole from your past ?
what causes you to examine ?
well, that's my loonie's worth for now ;-)
q
Flora and Eric Floen
>
> Hi Kent-Erik,
>
> I enjoyed reading your posts on your use of Tarot . This is something I know
> little about. I have a deck, but I find it so complex, I seem to get lost - and
> <g> I've never had anyone teach me. Are there individual differences in how well
> some decks are read ?
Okay, this is Flora, and I am gonna butt in here because you are gonna
hit this at just the right angle to keep this on topic--sort of.
Individual decks have individual Personalities to their imagery, and the
intent with wich that imagery was drawn, making some suited to some but
not others. My sissy loves her Thoth deck, and I swear that the damn
thing hisses at me. It is a difficult deck to read, and it's imagery is
complex and some think arcane. I like it and find it very rich. But I
do not own a Thoth deck. I wanted rich imagery, but chose the Hagel
deck instead, for that. Very complex, combining several different
belief system's imagery as well as I Ching, for a nice diverse reading.
It is a serious deck, but not ....so VERY dark. But I like to use it
whaen I wanna lay down the heavy shit.
Now there is my all-purpose deck, the Tarot of The Cat People. The
artist is a very popular lady at Science Fiction conventions, and
designs costumes that remind me of the old Start Treck thing... but the
deck is complex in it's own way, and not a "Fluffy" "Rainbows and my
Little Pony" reading. This deck tells it like it is. I like it because I
can attach a lot of my own peculiar symbolism to the imagery.
I like decks that don't get too far out of the symbolisim of Tarot. The
concepts and archetypes cover just about everything and the variations
and interactions cover the shades in between.
Some decks are all major Arcana, and this is fine, tho I feel jypped by
the artists that do this.
Some play around with the symbolisim and subsitute "Transition" for
"Death," and "Materialism" for "The Devil." My Cat cards trade "Rebirth"
for "Judgement." I have seen the "Hirophant" and "Pope" used
interchangably. This is definately one of those sitiuations where you
get out of it what you put in.
I think the Rider-Waite is one of the very best to start with because it
is the easiest to read, and is very traditional. There is no messing wih
the major Arcana and there is no confusing augmentation of the Minor
Mentors either. The court cards are straightforward and the spreads
taught with the cards are easy to understand and suitable for beginners.
It's not light, nor is it a dark feeling deck, much like life, it just
is.
aresome decks better suited to some readers rather than
> others ?
>
YES.
Like the Thoth deck is suited to my sister's darkness and complexity,
she likes to know details and is not afraid of puuting a great deal of
herself into preparing her deck. She'll take each card and "Tell it
what it is" and meditate with them, using incese and candles. She wants
to know what the possibilities are even the bad ones, and this deck will
tell you. (And you'd better not forget the incense or it WILL get
snippy)
Now the Connelly Tarot is interesting as it explains some of the
relationshops about where the cards are located augmenting the meanings
of the reading, as will the Thoth. Tho where the Thoth is dark, the
Connelly is very gentle, and very light. It might tell you something
unpleasant, but it will say it in a nice way, and counsel you to look at
the situation as a growing experiance, emphasising the bright side.
Some of the hard impact of the major arcana are softened, and the
meditations are christianized. This is good for some people, but not my
thing, usually. But if the person I am counseling has a "thing" about
witchcraft and I want them to get what they can out of the "objective"
reading, This is what I use.
Ok, then there is the Cat People deck, which is kinda funky, but works
for me, and most of the folks I like. It's a good general purpose deck.
But my girlfriend L likes her Hagel deck, and I do too. It suits her
BYzantine complexity perfectly as this deck is so in -depth.
Personally, there is even a Holoween deck that is very
Nightmare-Before-Christmas, that i love it, tho it is more the type of
thing my sister uses for her "Fluffy" deck. I prefer the Sacred Rose,
which is on the trippy side of funky, again, or Rider-waite for my
Fluffy.
Oh, and thee is a deck of rune Cards. I got it as I wanted to learn the
runes, but was comfortable with the cards. MAn! Those suckers tell it
like it is with No pity.
Not for everyone, but I did learn my runes.
> I use rocks - all rocks that I've found and who have agreed or volunteered to
> work with me ( and sometimes they change their 'minds' <g>)
>
Cool, then you understand about getting snotty readings.
> "[:Kent-Erik:]" wrote:
>
> >
> > I use the tarot only to point out hidden and/or overlooked qualities that we
> > are born with. Never to tell anyones fortune or lovelife etc... that's
> > unimportant to me since I know that everyone can achieve what's in their
> > minds if they only are aware of who they are... and the tarot help me read
> > the Q'er in another way, beacuse when they are occupied with looking at the
> > cards, I can take a closer look at them and compare this with what can be
> > found in the tarot... :-)
>
> when I use the rocks, their cracks and indentations and markings form themselves
> into shapes and symbols - ocassionally my symbols - more usually, the symbols of
> the querent - though I may have thoughts about what some of these mean, they are
> usually far very specific to the querent - andprovide the same kind of sense -
> qualities of the person - and it leaves a lot to the individual's interpretation
>
Sorta sounds like what i do with the blind readings and making the
person read out of the book, and listen to what i have to to say about
my personal interpretations of certain cards, which have come to denote
certain influences to me.
> the last time I did a reading, I saw a white stag without legs -it was tempting
> to interpret this in all kinds of ways ( for me - gee a stag and gee - no legs
> <g> ) - it turned out this was something the person had seen in his last
> journey and it allowed him to both explorethe meaning and lend more credence to
> some doubts he hadabout his journey and his healing
>
> before, those cracks in the rock had formed very different pictures
>
Neat! I collect interesting rocks, but had neve thought to do this with
them. I just played with them, and sometimes (I know this will sound
weird) sucked on them, like a thing to fidget with. I dunno... Now I
feel weird, but that's okay. I feel that way, most of the time,
anyway....
> >
> > Flora and Eric Floen skrev i meddelandet
> > <377EAC...@earthlink.net>...
> > >[:Kent-Erik:] wrote:
> > >>
> >
> > It is important to keep in mind that the tarot itself has no power. Instead
> > it is my own knowledge about and associations of the symbols and the figures
> > in the tarot that forms a force or a power. The tarot itself only "scan" the
> > present state of mind and energy, on a conscius aswell as subconscius level.
> > When I look at the tarot and interpret them, my conscius level and the
> > unconscius' interacts. The images and associations that appears in the
> > interpretation corresponds to the processes I need to work on. In other
> > words, it's always the right card that emerges.
> >
> > What's important to understand is that the cards can be interpreted in a
> > variety of different levels, depending of i.e. type of question or
> > concentration at the moment. It is also important to have in mind that our
> > own conscius is constantly changing focus; that's why the same question
> > gives different answers at different occations, in spite that the
> > circumstances doesn't seem to have changed.
>
> with the exception of working with specific pictures or symbols, this very much
> describes the rock work
>
> don't know if it's on topic, but I would very much enjoy hearing / discussing
> more
>
Then lets keep talking. I enjoy this thread and I can get a lot of
insight from what you describe with the rocks. Who got you started?
You're it!
Blessings,
FLORA
Two Snakes
[:Kent-Erik:] wrote in message <7ltr3c$78b$1...@zingo.tninet.se>...
>Two Snakes wrote...
>>
>< snipped a lot of patriotic stuff >
>
>I can not really understand all this you have written here. Are you
>seriously comparing the Dutch traditions and culture with the NA-cultures
as
>being abused and distorted. Well, I 'll be danmned if I can...
>
Kent-Erik, if I may reply to this one this time, and then you decide what to
do next.
I did not compare the Dutch with the Native Americans. I cannot, it isn't
the same. You stated the same for the Samii's, and I agree with you. It got
seen like so, and that was part of the intention I had. Yes, if I had used
'Native American' instead of 'Dutch', than it would be a very mean post. The
difference lies with the word. I know that some good-intentional people see
it as such, they do see that there is no difference only because of race or
culture.
In that light, and from that view I wrote the post. Not as something I
believe in, but as something others do. And I did it to get reactions, to
show how people react and what it can lead to. I could have done it in
another way, but I couldn't see one.
>. I am sure that you had some hidden intention to post as you
>did, and so on... making people I have come to love and respect saddened,
>only because youf felt you had the right to. Well, what can I say. I for
one
>has propagated for the freedom of expression, allowing everyone to post as
>we feel. Guess you proved me dead-wrong in this.... So please, pay no
>attention in the future on my posts, and I promise I will do you the same
>honor...
>
>I am sorry that I got upset... but that is my problem
>
>Kent-Erik
>
No, I do not have the right to make people saddened or hurt. But I do stick
to what I believe in, and try to express that, and take the crap for
screwing up in that.
I am sorry if you got upset, and that is my problem. I will refrain from
replying to future posts of yours, unless stated otherwise. I am sorry for
hurting your feelings.
Maqua
Can I have some water? I'm having trouble swallowing my foot.
Let's just say I've had a very rough 48 hours.
Prayers, good words, pretty please?
Giggling,
Maqua, the laughing Bear,