Seems to me
bosco
about Shamanism as we do. Because people lived in tribes and villages,
knowledge was passed down from person to person and we have played that
game in grade school, and know the results.
Unless we are willing tho believe that every generation of Shaman was
perfect, it is doubtful that there was an unbroken knowedge stream
where the village Shaman never found themselves in uncharted territory.
Shamans of yesterday knew what they were told by the elder village
Shaman, or spirit, same as it is today.
Not to introduce more into my thoughts, but it also seems obvious that
there were as many or more flavors of Shamanism as there are today.
I look at some of the Shamanistic sites, and the site owner who is a
self professed Shaman of one sort or another, has more in common with
the Oracle of Delphi actual Shamanism.
I am glad I am ignorant except for what I know. Thinking out loud on a
Saturday...
Néo
Damn, it seems I had missed this post...
This rings very true to me, for the parts that deal
with transmission between fellow human beings - from
elders to newbies.
At the same time, one should not forget the fact that
spiritual teachings originate straight from spirit
guides, which is something that may be facilitated by
the elders' ecperience, but in itself it does happen
without any go-betweens.
--
N�o
bosco
I am not sure of my thoughts when I wrote this, but they align pretty
close to what you mention. We have the net, books, and each other's
experiences to draw from. What we do not have is years and years of
time together to really understand and absorb what we read and hear
from each other.
Spirit learning to me is very interesting. I was shown what they wanted
me to know, and spirit allowed me to wander and learn a bit more on my
own. It is difficult to decide exactly where spirit learning leads one
except eventually to harmony, happiness, and contentment. At least in
my particular case.
Though the decades before my time acceptance left a lot to be desired.
I made the journey more or less intact, at least I think I did.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I am not sure of my thoughts when I wrote this, but they align pretty
When you first posted it what popped into my head was
the words to a David Bowie song and what it says about
the approach so many people take to direct contact with
the realm of the spirits -
Seems to me, you don't want to talk about it.
Seems to me, you don't want to know about it.
Seems to me, you just turn your pretty head and walk away.
It's a nice enough song when sung by David Bowie with
guitar and drums. I always thought it was about human to
human relationships until bosco posted a couple of weeks
ago. I'm sure David Bowie intended his song that way.
But it works just as well as commentary on the most
common human to spirit attitudes about relationships.
I don't know how much of this common attitude is fall
out from a couple of extremely large population monotheist
religions preaching attitudes that the spirits of the dead
are to be avoided. Plenty of old tales from before the
arrival of the monotheist religion that's now the majority in
Europe and the Americas are about spirits of the dead.
How much that maps to attitude by larger percentages
of the population in even more ancient times is hard to
say. How much that maps to attitudes about spirits that
never have been human is hard to say. Certainly the total
population was tiny compared to today and the number of
people that any one person could contact was tiny
compared to today.
When faring forth I've occasionally wondered how many of
the spirits I encounter were ever human. Not many as
far as I can tell, not that my guesses on the topic have
much chance of accuracy. But a faith that forbids contact
with spirits that used to be human polices their rule by
forbidding faring forth in the first place. I find their approach
strange, alien and frustrating.
Randgrithr
> I don't know how much of this common attitude is fall
> out from a couple of extremely large population monotheist
> religions preaching attitudes that the spirits of the dead
> are to be avoided.
But a faith that forbids contact
> with spirits that used to be human polices their rule by
> forbidding faring forth in the first place. I find their approach
> strange, alien and frustrating.
A control freak bitching about control freaks. How amusing.
bosco
Interesting perspective. There is not much to talk about that would be
of much interest to what few regulars we have. It would be more ho hum,
btdtgtts.
I have had interaction with beings who were human and still prefer
their human shapes over the infinite choices available. I also interact
with beings who are not quite human, but not quite something else. Then
there is the usual run of characters from the mundane to the really
strange and unique.
The strangest lately was a being which looked like a plant, with stubby
stems and suckers of an otopoid. Lady Luck who dresses rather
frumpily, Death who was not impressed finding me in the study who lives
on the far side of a bridge between LOD and the living. Throw in the
occasional dragon, demon, and other creatures. Pretty much nothing
exciting that others here have not experienced. A large number of them
take human form, perhaps only for my comfort.
I would think the spirits who used to be human contact thing may stem
from self limting beliefs of the person rather than restriction on the
spirit itself. I never really thought about it or investigated, so it
is a passing thought, no more.
theMickey's
Methinks perhaps, that you need to lay off the Spirits.
(:
theMickey's
Methinks perhaps, that you need to lay off the Spirits.
(:
bosco
> On Jul 30, 5:01�ｿｽpm, bosco <boscopel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-07-29 09:08:05 -0600, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>
>>
>>> bosco <boscopel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I am not sure of my thoughts when I wrote this, but they align pretty
>>>> close to what you mention ...
>>
>>> When you first posted it what popped into my head was
>>> the words to a David Bowie song and what it says about
>>> the approach so many people take to direct contact with
>>> the realm of the spirits -
>>
>>> Seems to me, you don't want to talk about it.
>>> Seems to me, you don't want to know about it.
>>> Seems to me, you just turn your pretty head and walk away.
>>
>>> It's a nice enough song when sung by David Bowie with
>>> guitar and drums. �ｿｽI always thought it was about human to
>>> human relationships until bosco posted a couple of weeks
>>> ago. �ｿｽI'm sure David Bowie intended his song that way.
>>> But it works just as well as commentary on the most
>>> common human to spirit attitudes about relationships.
>>
>>> I don't know how much of this common attitude is fall
>>> out from a couple of extremely large population monotheist
>>> religions preaching attitudes that the spirits of the dead
>>> are to be avoided. �ｿｽPlenty of old tales from before the
>>> arrival of the monotheist religion that's now the majority in
>>> Europe and the Americas are about spirits of the dead.
>>
>>> How much that maps to attitude by larger percentages
>>> of the population in even more ancient times is hard to
>>> say. �ｿｽHow much that maps to attitudes about spirits that
>>> never have been human is hard to say. �ｿｽCertainly the total
>>> population was tiny compared to today and the number of
>>> people that any one person could contact was tiny
>>> compared to today.
>>
>>> When faring forth I've occasionally wondered how many of
>>> the spirits I encounter were ever human. �ｿｽNot many as
>>> far as I can tell, not that my guesses on the topic have
>>> much chance of accuracy. �ｿｽBut a faith that forbids contact
>>> with spirits that used to be human polices their rule by
>>> forbidding faring forth in the first place. �ｿｽI find their approach
>>> strange, alien and frustrating.
>>
>> Interesting perspective. There is not much to talk about that would be
>> of much interest to what few regulars we have. It would be more ho hum,
>> btdtgtts.
>>
>> I have had interaction with beings who were human and still prefer
>> their human shapes over the infinite choices available. I also interact
>> with beings who are not quite human, but not quite something else. Then
>> there is the usual run of characters from the mundane to the really
>> strange and unique.
>>
>> The strangest lately was a being which looked like a plant, with stubby
>> stems and suckers of an otopoid. �ｿｽLady Luck who dresses rather
>> frumpily, Death who was not impressed finding me in the study who lives
>> on the far side of a bridge between LOD and the living. Throw in the
>> occasional dragon, demon, and other creatures. Pretty much nothing
>> exciting that others here have not experienced. A large number of them
>> take human form, perhaps only for my comfort.
>>
>> I would think the spirits who used to be human contact thing may stem
>> from self limting beliefs of the person rather than restriction on the
>> spirit itself. I never really thought about it or investigated, so it
>> is a passing thought, no more.
>
> Methinks perhaps, that you need to lay off the Spirits.
> (:
Sometimes the the spirits have other ideas
Doug Freyburger
>
> I would think the spirits who used to be human contact thing may stem
> from self limting beliefs of the person rather than restriction on the
> spirit itself. I never really thought about it or investigated, so it
> is a passing thought, no more.
Much of it comes from how my own mind processes my
experience of a spirit. I want to have an image and at
times a visual image isn't supplied. A couple decades
ago a spirit's image looked too familiar - Thinking back I
had ended up filling in the image from a movie current at
the time.
That led me to ponder both the lesson offered by that
spirit and also the idea that cultural filters greatly
influence how each of us perceive and react when we
encounter a spirit. It's a topic with more interest to folks
who have decided to follow a specific pantheon than folks
who put most focus on direct contact. A routine matter
for the regulars here as you stated, more applicable to
pondering unity versus diversity of pagan pantheons.
Thanks for the discussion
bosco
I have thought the same thing too. As you say, it is possible are given
(mostly) visual images in a form that we can relate to or respond to. I
am curious too about how we when interacting with spirit know proof
positive that what we see is what we get.
I have thought for a while that all my interactions conceivably could
be the same entity representing itself in different forms. Taking that
a little further, all of us could be interacting with the same spirit
or few spirits and each of us see and hear different images, forms, and
personalities that we individually can relate to, or interact with.
As a simple example, I have had interaction with different animals who
all belong to the same groupings, say horse, deer. Yet from my
understanding all of them are either horse or deer. This is why I have
always wondered if it is one being acting as many.
Perhaps whatever our mood is at that time reflects to spirit who
responds in a different form. I sure don't know.
At any rate, this is a good discussion.
ja...@jamesphotography.ca
wrote:
Gents,
I'm a lurker who just subscribed to this NG, and have found this
thread interesting. I do not interact with spirits with such clarity
as you guys (girls?) talk about, as I am just begining my shamanic
journey and have much to learn. For some reason, I'm drawn to
Shamanism, firstly through an attraction to natives indigenous to
North America. Not *them* per se, but their spirituality. And I feel
there's a rite of passage waiting for me... perhaps a vision quest?
Don't know. I've been handed a sacred symbol during a meditation which
I'm not sure what to do with; I've manipulated weather, spoken
specific words of guidance to people that blew them away... all these
are little glimpses into a world that is drawing me, but I lack the
direction and vision.
I'm not sure why I'm blithering here, but I have sensed peace and
humility in your interesting thread...
Jim
bosco
Hello Jim,
I hope you find the direction and vision you are looking for. Some have
found it, and other have found themselves happily driven having little
control over their purpose, most land somewhere in the middle.
The archives are well worth reading if you take the time to search for
the wheat amongst the chaff so to speak. Theere are a lot of great
posts containing some amazing insight and understanding.
Good luck,
ben
Noah Spam
more than we will.
sb
bosco
By far, learning to listen before you are grabbed by the neck and your
nose shoved in it helps a lot
ben
Néo
Glad to be back here on ars, I've been quite tired
and busy for some weeks...
bosco a �crit :
Exactly... Therefore, trying to make a theoretically
perfectly accurate framework from our limited perception
of some Good Old Times, then to assess our experiences
through this unique prism, looks a bit limitating to me.
I like broadening my perspective with stuff from other
places/times but I wouldn't want to do this against the
basic primacy of the Here and Now if you see my point.
> Spirit learning to me is very interesting.
I see it as prime since it's the original source. Then comes
all the rest. YMMV.
> I was shown what they wanted
> me to know, and spirit allowed me to wander and learn a bit more on my
> own.
Same for all of us here, I think, more or less... you
may remember how, at some stage, I was ranting about
the loss of the ability to roam a bit everywhere like
how I used to previously. Do you want to call it the
principle of divine economy, or an intel agency like
strict application of a need to know rule?
> It is difficult to decide exactly where spirit learning leads one
> except eventually to harmony, happiness, and contentment. At least in my
> particular case.
Well... in any order you want, you may add inner healing
and self-awareness - experiencing your personal answer
to the sentence: "You are this".
> Though the decades before my time acceptance left a lot to be desired. I
> made the journey more or less intact, at least I think I did.
The conscious part of our acceptance seems to me to be
a subset of the whole deal. I remember once, one of my
guides (an elder from my horde) making me sign a sheet
of paper where I could not see what was written (that
is, if any). Was this a Zen joke? I'll know when I can
see him face to face. It should be a quite interesting
moment.
--
N�o
Néo
Another news server that I was using previously
did not propagate this message...
Two brief remarks here. First, I always thought
that the attitude towards death (and therefore,
the spirits of deceased persons) of people was
one of the best ever indicators of their true
degree of spiritual awakening. So much for the
dogmatic religions.
Second, do you or anybody else around actually
differentiate (or thinks he/she can) between
human (generally speaking) and earthly (local)
spirits?
--
N�o
Néo
You forgot "lousy" in the acronym. ;-)
> I have had interaction with beings who were human and still prefer their
> human shapes over the infinite choices available.
Well look, when we shamans learn to shapeshift
astrally, what are we doing? It would not be
logical to expect otherwise from most, if not
all other beings met during journeys. At least
this is how I'd see it.
> I also interact with
> beings who are not quite human, but not quite something else.
Same remark here as in my reply to Doug, do you
find the distinction between human and earthly
as relevant and/or helpful here?
My spiritual spouse happens to belong to the
first category, not the second one.
> Then there
> is the usual run of characters from the mundane to the really strange
> and unique.
Oh yeah... the more visibly exotic fauna, LOL.
> The strangest lately was a being which looked like a plant, with stubby
> stems and suckers of an otopoid. Lady Luck who dresses rather frumpily,
> Death who was not impressed finding me in the study who lives on the far
> side of a bridge between LOD and the living. Throw in the occasional
> dragon, demon, and other creatures. Pretty much nothing exciting that
> others here have not experienced.
The ability of non presently incarnated beings
(whatever the location, that is) to take ANY
appearance always struck me.
> A large number of them take human
> form, perhaps only for my comfort.
I distinctly remember a weird case of a group of
sentient and kind, insect like beings (something
like 6 feet long, green grasshopers) where after
a while, I noticed they had taken approximately
human looking faces - a mere convention. I think
it's because they wanted to avoid scaring me.
> I would think the spirits who used to be human contact thing may stem
> from self limting beliefs of the person rather than restriction on the
> spirit itself. I never really thought about it or investigated, so it is
> a passing thought, no more.
Shapeshifting... etc. :-)
--
N�o
bosco
I agree, what we know about the here nd now is a whole lot more than
the rose colored view of what we think it was like before us. I imagine
it is like Stanley looking for Livingston, or perhaps Livingston
looking for Stanley, whoever disappeared...
Wherever the trail went, the tribe they spoke to all said that yes he
went that way. What tribe was going to say, 'he was here and we ate him
for dinner.
I think some authors of how it was done and what it was about wore the
same rose colored glasses. Not to say it is bad, but rather it is only
as thruthful as the perosn telling the writer how it works wanted it to
be.
>
>
>> Spirit learning to me is very interesting.
>
> I see it as prime since it's the original source. Then comes
> all the rest. YMMV.
>
>
>> I was shown what they wanted me to know, and spirit allowed me to
>> wander and learn a bit more on my own.
>
> Same for all of us here, I think, more or less... you
> may remember how, at some stage, I was ranting about
> the loss of the ability to roam a bit everywhere like
> how I used to previously. Do you want to call it the
> principle of divine economy, or an intel agency like
> strict application of a need to know rule?
I am not sure what the reasons may be. I remember you would range far
and wide, then suddenly prohibited. Perhaps it was because what you
need(ed) to do is/was in this realm or reality.
>
>
>> It is difficult to decide exactly where spirit learning leads one
>> except eventually to harmony, happiness, and contentment. At least in
>> my particular case.
>
> Well... in any order you want, you may add inner healing
> and self-awareness - experiencing your personal answer
> to the sentence: "You are this".
>
>
>> Though the decades before my time acceptance left a lot to be desired.
>> I made the journey more or less intact, at least I think I did.
>
> The conscious part of our acceptance seems to me to be
> a subset of the whole deal. I remember once, one of my
> guides (an elder from my horde) making me sign a sheet
> of paper where I could not see what was written (that
> is, if any). Was this a Zen joke? I'll know when I can
> see him face to face. It should be a quite interesting
> moment.
That is a good one, at least you were given the common choice. Either
do it or it will happen anyway. Reminds me of some elections, everyone
voted for the same candidate. The reason for this is not clear to me
either, but I am keenly aware of the consequence of refusing - or
refusing to aknowledge what I am, as I was told I was doing.
Néo
> On 2009-09-02 14:25:55 -0600, N锟給 <ze_...@rocketship.com> said:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Glad to be back here on ars, I've been quite tired
>> and busy for some weeks...
>>
>>> On 2009-07-27 13:41:28 -0600, N锟給 <ze_...@rocketship.com> said:
>>>
>>>> bosco a 锟絚rit :
Good points. (grin)
>>> Spirit learning to me is very interesting.
>>
>> I see it as prime since it's the original source. Then comes
>> all the rest. YMMV.
>>
>>
>>> I was shown what they wanted me to know, and spirit allowed me to
>>> wander and learn a bit more on my own.
>>
>> Same for all of us here, I think, more or less... you
>> may remember how, at some stage, I was ranting about
>> the loss of the ability to roam a bit everywhere like
>> how I used to previously. Do you want to call it the
>> principle of divine economy, or an intel agency like
>> strict application of a need to know rule?
> I am not sure what the reasons may be. I remember you would range far
> and wide, then suddenly prohibited. Perhaps it was because what you
> need(ed) to do is/was in this realm or reality.
Well, at one stage it was considered that I had finished
my training period and there also was more danger in the
air than previously. Add to this a still ongoing type of
mission (I can't say job because I had, and still have,
nothing to "do" - it's about "being"). Also, as you did
suggest here, I was indeed requested (I still am) to do
certain tasks for which limited interactions with other
planes are enough. They didn't care if I wanted to have
breaks from time to time.
My efforts for breaking the lock failed miserably, and I
eventually gave up for now - but not without having first
gained a much deeper understanding of who did what, and
some spankings will take place some day, no worry - at
the very least, symbolically.
>>> It is difficult to decide exactly where spirit learning leads one
>>> except eventually to harmony, happiness, and contentment. At least in
>>> my particular case.
>>
>> Well... in any order you want, you may add inner healing
>> and self-awareness - experiencing your personal answer
>> to the sentence: "You are this".
>>
>>
>>> Though the decades before my time acceptance left a lot to be
>>> desired. I made the journey more or less intact, at least I think I did.
>>
>> The conscious part of our acceptance seems to me to be
>> a subset of the whole deal. I remember once, one of my
>> guides (an elder from my horde) making me sign a sheet
>> of paper where I could not see what was written (that
>> is, if any). Was this a Zen joke? I'll know when I can
>> see him face to face. It should be a quite interesting
>> moment.
>
> That is a good one, at least you were given the common choice. Either do
> it or it will happen anyway.
Well as a friend says, once awakened to your true being
and fate, you've got two choices: accomplishing it just
fine or screwing things up.
> Reminds me of some elections, everyone
> voted for the same candidate. The reason for this is not clear to me
> either, but I am keenly aware of the consequence of refusing - or
> refusing to aknowledge what I am, as I was told I was doing.
Could you elaborate? This seems highly interesting, and
maybe I could provide a couple of related clues. Was this
about accepting some authority, or a representative?
--
N锟給
bosco
> bosco a �crit :
>> On 2009-09-02 14:25:55 -0600, N�o <ze_...@rocketship.com> said:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Glad to be back here on ars, I've been quite tired
>>> and busy for some weeks...
>>>
>>> bosco a �crit :
>>>> On 2009-07-27 13:41:28 -0600, N�o <ze_...@rocketship.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> bosco a �crit :
I believe you said it better than I did where you mentioned what a
friend says. In my situation I only wanted part of the package. I
wanted what seemed to be the psychic powers portion. I never dreamed
that there would be strings attached, and it was the whole meal deal or
nothing at all.
I literally got nothing at all as time went on. Each year, month, and
week, brought less and less. Then I reached the point where there was
nothing left to do but accept what I was, whatever that is.
I can't say it was pushed on me, but instead was cleverly forced on me
by taking everything away if that makes sense. Perhaps an inverted
negative reinforcement? No punishment for not accepting, absolutely no
reward either.
ben
Néo
>>>
>>>
>>> (long snip)
OK then - a sort of "end of the incident, back to normal"
situation as far as they were concerned.
You know, this is one of the things that I like the most
about this group... we all have our own words for our own
so diverse experiences, and yet we always find out that
we speak the same language enough so that such stuff does
resonates without many words - even at times preferring
resorting to slightly cryptic allusions rather than fully
detailed descriptions.
The way my own "Accept all or get nothing" situation was
put to me still flabbergasts me. The deal was not only
about work. Present work, at times in conditions defying
apparent common sense, risking my very life on it and
being forced to trust some of my team mates and bosses
that put themselves in a sort of theoretical lifeline
relationship to me right now. Future job (this is what
this blank document apparently referred to). I'll tell
about it more in detail as soon as time is ripe for me to
do so, and I then expect to get some "Better him than me"
reactions. The deal included all of it and more, even up
to my very love life. It's like I'm saying they took no
chances, to a point where at times it was quite difficult
for me to know where and how I could apply trust. :-)
--
N锟給