A short note - I am back.
Apu Kuntur
After a long absence of (I think) two years or so I am back on this
newsgroup. Some names are still familiar to me: Joseph and Nita Byrd to
name the two I remember best ;-)
To these which don't know me yet: I am practicing shamanic techniques
for a long time now, having a book in preparation, which will be ready
in 2003 and dealing with contemporary shamanism. However it is being
written in german.
For the sake of your patience I am including a link to my own
web-presence. There people deeper interested in my person can be satisfied.
I send you greetings and may the spirits be with you!
Apu Kuntur (back in 1999 known as Aufsteigender Adler).
www.kondor.de - Contemporary Shamanism.
www.ausangate.org - Der deutsche Webring schamanischer Seiten.
Nita Byrd
hibernation", are you--welcome back! I know Joseph and Starr and Flora have
referred to you from time to time. Some time ago I asked you a question at
your website about shamanism in Europe, namely the roots of contemporary
shamanism in Germany, and if there is a relationship to witchcraft, or are
we talking about separate practices, but I did not receive an answer. I
still want to know what is considered shamanic practice historically in
Germany, since I have a strong background on my dad's side for many
generations in Germany, and my dad's father claimed a family tree was lost
that dated back to the 15th century. Do you know, if any, books currently
in English, that have a historical perspective shamanically, on the area
that became known as Germany? I know some of the Norse practices got mixed
in with the Germanic, but I'm most interested in knowing what some of my
ancestors may have practiced shamanically in the sense of spiritual
practices that may have pertained or included what was found in Europe in
the region there. Or perhaps there is really very little information that
has come down to the present? I suspect you never got my question that I
posted to you from your website.
I congratulate you on your book accomplishment on contemporary shamanism! I
wish you much success with those who read in German. Who knows, it might be
picked up by an English publisher!
Those of you who have endured my long descriptions of Andean shamanism need
not continue past this point:) I've studied and trained in Inka
mystic-shamanism for three years with Andean anthropologist and shaman
priest Juan Nunez del Prado, and took the Hatun Karpay with him in Peru last
December. It has been a great adventure, Apu, especially since I was
undergoing chemo for a second bout of cancer in 2000, and couldn't go on the
Hatun Karpay. Two years later, I almost didn't make it the second time, as
it was scheduled for Sept. 14th, and of course, it was cancelled. Squeeked
into another group from Ohio, but didn't know that I was very anemic when I
headed off for the trip, so lucky to have had an assistant priest who was
also a healer, give me some coca leaves to chew when I started to faint on
the way back down off Machu Picchu! We visited a sacred cave away from the
tourist path. I actually touched meteorites used by the Inkas in their
rituals in that cave. To feel the truly cold light from them--
My first introduction to the path came from an American who is trained in
Andean shamanism, and received an Apu spirit during the karpay to the third
level of consciousness. This was my big introduction to the path. This
opened up my first glimpse of outside spirit powers, which was something at
the time for a trained hypnotherapist who thought everything was "in the
mind"! Some miracles happened to me, starting when I received the karpay,
and the energy broke my wedding band--the solid gold--worn thin after 30
years....other miracles followed.
Last year, there was a first alternative conference with indigenous Peruvian
and Amazonian healers at Georgetown Univ. in Wash. DC. I met Jeremy Narby
& Francis Huxley authors of_Shamans Through Time_, which I thoroughly
enjoyed, have you read it?-- and other writers on shamanism such as William
Sullivan (Secrets of the Inkas) and I enjoyed meeting them and had them sign
the books I brought with me. Was fortunate to have a healing done by an
Amazonian woman, who is well known in her area. Quite interesting. She
told me that my "cancer had been misdiagnosed, because most people die of
stomach cancer!" Interesting, because right or wrong, I'm still very much
alive, and no sign of the cancer returning, although for almost 2 months I
was close to death, not being allowed to eat or drink, but fed through a
tube!
Later I received the fourth level (of Andean consciousness) in Boston with
Juan and more advanced training on the Hatun Karpay--what a magical and
powerful spirit place is the Andes--Cusco and Machu Picchu! I concluded my
studies with Juan when I was initiated as a Chumpi Paqo (master of energy
belts) last year.
The entire study, karpays and experiences in the land of the Inkas woke me
back up to the living world of energy and spirits in all the forces of
nature everywhere, not just in Peru. It became a needed balance of focus
away from the emphasis on the inner mind, forged by my training as a
hypnotherapist and alternative healing practitioner. And it also led me
back to my own ancestors and lands and better appreciation for the spirit
world in general. The soft spot in my heart remains with the Andean Qeros
and those who I met in the Andes with hearts of gold, and the teachers who
illuminate the Andean spirit around the world. At the same time, I've found
great friends, and often great conversation as well as unusual learning
experiences in this news group, an enduring place to come home to:)
Munay,
Nita
"Apu Kuntur" <apu.k...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:avkv30$849$07$1...@news.t-online.com...
Apu Kuntur
> your website about shamanism in Europe, namely the roots of contemporary
> shamanism in Germany, and if there is a relationship to witchcraft, or are
> we talking about separate practices, but I did not receive an answer.
I will try to answer it right here. In the southern parts of germany and
the alps there is much preserved of pre-christian believings. 'shamans'
were viped out at least many hundreds years ago, even in pre-christian
times these seidhmen were not many in numbers. Some of the shamanic
traditions remained alive in the catholic rites. You must know that the
catholic church NEVER had anything against magic, only against the
non-christian version of it. They developed and kept magic secrets and
practice until today. One traditional shamanic path - the geomantic
knowledge - is till preserved here and transmitted outside of the
churches ways. the ancient witches were a rather multifaceted kind.
there were many different peoples marked as witches or sorcerors and
burnt by the inquisition. The only authentic tradition I know on this
part is that of the ZOS KIA CULTUS invented by Austin Spare. What
nowadays is being called WICCA has nothing in common with this.
> still want to know what is considered shamanic practice historically in
> Germany, since I have a strong background on my dad's side for many
> generations in Germany, and my dad's father claimed a family tree was lost
> that dated back to the 15th century.
The last non-christian shaman died in the 17th or so century. It is a
pitty that I lost the source where this is being described by an
eyewitness. It could be earlier, because I believe it was Agrippa von
Nettesheim which described this individual. It is not easy to answer
your question because I am constantly finding new puzzle-pieces in these
matters.
Do you know, if any, books currently
> in English, that have a historical perspective shamanically, on the area
> that became known as Germany?
No I cannot help you there. In german there was being published a
trilogy by the gebrüder grimm, deutsche mythologie, but I dont know
whether it is being translated into english or not.
> I know some of the Norse practices got mixed
..... has come down to the present? I suspect you never got my
question that I
> posted to you from your website.
Maybe. I had rather interesting times the last years.
> Those of you who have endured my long descriptions of Andean shamanism need
> not continue past this point:) I've studied and trained in Inka
> ... tourist path. I actually touched meteorites used by the Inkas in their
> rituals in that cave. To feel the truly cold light from them--
talking of hatun karpay reminds me on an incidence three or four years
ago. I travelled the spiritsworld for many years and then I read a book
by Elizabeth Jenkins where she mentioned a location where she met the
apus during her initiation. The place which she described matches
exactly a location in my spirits-world. I asked my totem spirit on this
and s/he laughed out loudly: you never asked. That's spirit-logic. I
changed my internet-name to Apu Kuntur then, realizing the implications
on these experiences. At least what I know that I am one of the (last?
first?) 'mallku hake' here in this time. I only know of one or two
dozens of individuals which share this fate - most of them living in
southamerica, some of them in n.-america and only one or two in europe.
I am delving very deep in vulture-mysteries the last two years and I
haven't stopped to be amazed of the ancient roots of vulture-shamanism
in the old world (and the new world, too) and the connections to my own
spiritual heritage. I am currently trying to put this down into words,
but it is very difficult. There are so many different things popping up
that it is a hard time for me to get them together before something new
appears.
> My first introduction to the path came from an American who is trained in
> .... mind"! Some miracles happened to me, starting when I received the karpay,
> and the energy broke my wedding band--the solid gold--worn thin after 30
> years....other miracles followed.
Yes. The life is changing after spirits entering your life. Sometimes
its hurting but it is always opening up new paths and possibilities due
to freeing of former bound energies.
> Last year, there was a first alternative conference with indigenous Peruvian
> and Amazonian healers at Georgetown Univ. in Wash. DC. I met Jeremy Narby
> & Francis Huxley authors of_Shamans Through Time_, which I thoroughly
> enjoyed, have you read it?
Of course. I have achieved a copy as soon as it was being published. In
german I did a review on my pages.
> Later I received the fourth level (of Andean consciousness) in Boston with
> Juan and more advanced training on the Hatun Karpay--what a magical and
> powerful spirit place is the Andes--Cusco and Machu Picchu! I concluded my
> studies with Juan when I was initiated as a Chumpi Paqo (master of energy
> belts) last year.
And now you have to live this knowledge ;-). I haven't received any
initiations of the q'ero but I am aware of the meanings behind the
different levels of consciousness. Jenkins mentioned that if you are in
the particular level of consciousness the initiation is not necessary
anymore. It is interesting because I am living my personal shamanic path
which is heavily influenced by apu kuntur. A special part of my website
is dedicated to apu kuntur. Most of my knowledge on shamanism I got from
him/her, fortunately without cultural imprints. My speciality is dealing
with death and dying peoples as well as 'defragmenting' the soul. In the
eyes of a dying one you can see the reflection of the divine - in
shamanic workings I am allowed to see it for myself during this process
and whenever it is necessary.
> The entire study, karpays and experiences in the land of the Inkas woke me
> back up to the living world of energy and spirits in all the forces of
> nature everywhere, not just in Peru. It became a needed balance of focus
> away from the emphasis on the inner mind, forged by my training as a
> hypnotherapist and alternative healing practitioner.
Shamanism in not only about healing *g*. A thing most people dont even
realize which are using the term for their own works and actions.
> and those who I met in the Andes with hearts of gold, and the teachers who
> illuminate the Andean spirit around the world. At the same time, I've found
> great friends, and often great conversation as well as unusual learning
> experiences in this news group, an enduring place to come home to:)
It is a success when the initiation did open up new horizons and
perspectives for you. This is a part of initiations that they are
opening the mind to new things, besides of being initiated.
In the light of the secret,
Apu Kuntur.
Nita Byrd
> Hi Nita!
>
Nita> > shamanism in Germany, and if there is a relationship to
witchcraft, or are
> > we talking about separate practices, >
Apu> I will try to answer it right here. In the southern parts of germany
and
> the alps there is much preserved of pre-christian believings.
Oh really! This is surprising! If I may interrupt here, a thought
strikes me through association. You say "southern Germany"--that is
Bavaria, and I have a very strong attraction to the area, not only that, but
took up Bavarian style painting in the early 80's Anyhow, it is
interesting how there appears to be a connection with these things, perhaps
it is my ancestral spirits speaking through my painting....this is a novel
thought to me, really! Diane--there are others-- in this news group does
artwork also, she might have something to add here.
Apu: 'shamans'
> were viped out at least many hundreds years ago, even in pre-christian
> times these seidhmen were not many in numbers. Some of the shamanic
> traditions remained alive in the catholic rites.
Now I'm getting somewhere! Fascinating, this connection with Catholic
rites.... You are answering my dream of finding out more about my ancestors
probable associations with shamanic type activity. I also think some were
involved in witchcraft, as I know in my innermost being that one or more was
burned at the steak for being too powerful outside the Church, therefore a
threat to the hold of organized religion over the masses. Has anything
changed much over the centuries? NO, except the ideas have gotten more
sophisticated and laws prevail, thank goodness. So far I've discovered for
myself that many shamanic rites have been syncretised into Catholicism. I
didn't think about this being true of German shamanic practices. Surprise!
My father of course was raised Catholic, and his German parents were
Catholic. He studied for the priesthood, until science won over religious
dogma. I'd never heard of "syncretism" until I entered into Inka
shamanism, and found out that the Inka rites and god worship & sacred days
had to be cleverly hidden into the Catholic ones, in order to stay alive.
Many of those rites have been absorbed into Peruvian Catholicism of today so
well, that the indigenous people have forgotten the differences, while the
contempory shaman priests have made a lifetime study and search for those
very distinctions...not as a way to deprecate this merging, but to
appreciate more fully.
Apu: You must know that the
> catholic church NEVER had anything against magic, only against the
> non-christian version of it. They developed and kept magic secrets and
> practice until today. One traditional shamanic path - the geomantic
> knowledge - is till preserved here and transmitted outside of the
> churches ways.
Geomancy? Would you share more about this? This is most interesting! Just
what is it, as practiced today? My head spins sometimes, because there is
such an interweaving of religion and shamanism as related to sacred
practices. When I experienced the mass in the Cathedral over the Temple of
Wirokocha, the Inka Creator God, and participated in the sacrement, I felt a
sacred presence that's transcends creeds. Before the mass, I'd had a
problem with altitude sickness affecting my heartbeat...I was scared, since
it was only the beginning of the Hatun and I didn't want to have to be
shipped back home! Somehow, I sung my heart out with intent to heal,
joining the indigenous people and the metizos in their singing to Spirit,
manifested by Jesus. And that day, my heart righted itself.
the ancient witches were a rather multifaceted kind.
> there were many different peoples marked as witches or sorcerors and
> burnt by the inquisition. The only authentic tradition I know on this
> part is that of the ZOS KIA CULTUS invented by Austin Spare. What
> nowadays is being called WICCA has nothing in common with this.
This is so interesting for me! Zos kia cultus....hmmm. I've never heard of
Austin Spare. From what century? In your opinion, what is the difference
essentially between a German ancient witch, which is now considered a wicca,
and a German shaman before the 17th Century? In other words, what was the
difference in their functions? Does it come down to this analogy-- that the
sorceror or witch connects with the spirit world for self-knowledge and
empowerment, whereas the focus of the shaman is connection with the spirit
world *on the behalf of others*? (Notice, I didn't go so far as to say for
the "good" of others, to keep the association of "healing" out of
consideration <G>.)
Apu> The last non-christian shaman died in the 17th or so century. It is a
> pitty that I lost the source where this is being described by an
> eyewitness. It could be earlier, because I believe it was Agrippa von
> Nettesheim which described this individual. It is not easy to answer
> your question because I am constantly finding new puzzle-pieces in these
> matters.
Apu, how was this non-Christian shaman described--what did he or she do?
Why was this "shaman" singled out as different from a witch? What is the
word in German that most closely describes a "shaman" from earlier
centuries?
I equate Hildegard von Bingen as a Christian Mystic, yet I also envision her
as a Christian mystic-shaman.
Nita> Do you know, if any, books currently
> > in English, that have a historical perspective shamanically, on the area
> > that became known as Germany?
>
> No I cannot help you there. In german there was being published a
> trilogy by the gebrüder grimm, deutsche mythologie, but I dont know
> whether it is being translated into english or not.
Why does that sound like the Brothers Grimm, who wrote fairy tales? I have
the feeling, this could open up a whole new discussion:) BTW, I was a big
fan of Hans Christian Anderson, myself. I read everything I could in the
library from him as well as Brothers Grimm, when about 8 through 10 years,
after which, it was horses horses horses, followed by Science Fiction during
the teen years:) My favorite fairy tail was The TINDERBOX. Was that
Anderson? Getting sidetracked onto my beloved childhood hobby....
> Maybe. I had rather interesting times the last years.
Oh...I hope more interesting than mine...after surviving a second bout of
cancer while you've been gone, I was fortunate to have some interesting
things go on in my life *at all*:)
Nita: I actually touched meteorites used by the Inkas in their
> > rituals in that cave. To feel the truly cold light from them--
>
> talking of hatun karpay reminds me on an incidence three or four years
> ago. I travelled the spiritsworld for many years and then I read a book
> by Elizabeth Jenkins where she mentioned a location where she met the
> apus during her initiation. The place which she described matches
> exactly a location in my spirits-world.
How startling! Really! Ah, now I see. (Nita, rattling her memory....was
this during her Third Level with the sorceror, or Fourth level with Juan?)
My my my, how this innocent book has led us both closer to the spirit world
of who we really are, at least one place where we're closely connected. I
must tell you something, a short story how I came to read E. Jenkin's book,
_Initiation_, the one you're talking about. About 5 years ago a healer
recommended a book by the above name, since I happened to tell her that the
first time I had a Past Life Regression, I was Iknaten, the Sun God Ruler of
New Egypt. So since my husband was going to the Borders book store, I asked
him to pick up the book for me. It was supposed to be the book of the same
title, but by a different author, about a woman who was an Egyptian pharoh I
believe, when she undertook a P.L.R.. The book he brought back however, was
none other than Elizabeth's book about Andean shamanism, and Juan Nunez del
Prado, who would become my teacher for three years. At that time, I hadn't
been introduced to shamanism, much less what all that talk about the Andean
shamanism, the Apus, or Juan Nunez del Prado was all about. I remember
scanning through the book, finding the chapters about her first unsettling
accounts of meeting a Third Level master sorceror, and how the Apus are
perceived at that level--rather frightening--and her later "accidental"
meeting with Juan, just when she was about ready to give up her quest for
higher learning. Then the author gave an account of going with Jaun on the
Hatun Karpay, with a description of each step of the journey, also being a
spiritual journey at traditional Inka power sites of great beauty and powe.
I had not a clue that I would be undertaking, step by step, the Identical
Hatun Karpay a few years later. Isn't syncronicity fascinating, and how
could it be "coincidence"?
Apu: I asked my totem spirit on this
> and s/he laughed out loudly: you never asked. That's spirit-logic. I
> changed my internet-name to Apu Kuntur then, realizing the implications
> on these experiences. At least what I know that I am one of the (last?
> first?) 'mallku hake' here in this time. I only know of one or two
> dozens of individuals which share this fate - most of them living in
> southamerica, some of them in n.-america and only one or two in europe.
Ummm. Trying to get this....not sure what "mallku hake" is translated to in
English. A type of priest, a level of priest?
> I am delving very deep in vulture-mysteries the last two years and I
> haven't stopped to be amazed of the ancient roots of vulture-shamanism
> in the old world (and the new world, too) and the connections to my own
> spiritual heritage. I am currently trying to put this down into words,
> but it is very difficult. There are so many different things popping up
> that it is a hard time for me to get them together before something new
> appears.
It doesn't surprise me this interest in your spiritual path. It is an
important aspect of who you really are. I have had a connection with birds
since childhood. I've had two parakeets, both which I tamed and taught to
talk. They tought me...patience....:). In Peru, a miracle happened to me
when the village children at the sacred site of Raqchi joined my hands, so
that I ended up with about 12 of us being blessed by Juan Nunez del Prado
along with our group of 12 adults that had come to the last step of the
Hatun Karpay. The temple of Raqchi was where the Inkas elected their ruler
from the 12 ruling families. The 12 who were being considered to rule,
elected their spiritual ruler which was decided by a *halo that appeared
around his head*. It is interesting that a halo of light is seen as a
universal symbol of spirituality, isn't it, and transcends cultures. When
the children joined hands with me, a type of Andean Eagle flew overhead.
Earlier, a shop woman had given me a CONDOR feather that she said would be
very powerful for me away from Peru, when I work with clients. So it lays
on the top of my mesa in my office, waiting to play out it's magic.
Nita: my ring broke during the energy transmission of the karpay
Apu> > Yes. The life is changing after spirits entering your life. Sometimes
> its hurting but it is always opening up new paths and possibilities due
> to freeing of former bound energies.
Yes, big changes happen. Every path leads to a related, yet fascinating new
direction. As I look back on my life so far, it is like an ecclectic
tapestry, with each new thread somehow connecting with one in the past, in a
fantastical way.
>
> > & Francis Huxley authors of_Shamans Through Time_, which I thoroughly
> > enjoyed, have you read it?
>
> Of course. I have achieved a copy as soon as it was being published. In
> german I did a review on my pages.
They were asked to step in and give the Keynote speech for a Peruvian doctor
who got held up by a plane, so they told some interesting stories of their
meetings with shamans in tribal cultures.
> > Later I received the fourth level (of Andean consciousness) in Boston
with
> > Juan and more advanced training on the Hatun Karpay--what a magical and
> > powerful spirit place is the Andes--Cusco and Machu Picchu! I concluded
my
> > studies with Juan when I was initiated as a Chumpi Paqo (master of
energy
> > belts) last year.
>
> And now you have to live this knowledge ;-).
Yes:) It is what one does with it, that counts.
I haven't received any
> initiations of the q'ero but I am aware of the meanings behind the
> different levels of consciousness. Jenkins mentioned that if you are in
> the particular level of consciousness the initiation is not necessary
> anymore.
You are right. they are just expressions of the concepts. for example, the
Third Level can be said to be compared to those who populate much of the
planet--they often speak of _their_ god as the one and only god. the fourth
level describes those who know that all gods are one and the same. Juan
would say, he woke up one day, went to a Catholic mass. Later the same day,
he visited and worshiped at a Protestant service, and felt the same in both
services, fully coming to the realization that both were the same in
essence. That is why his mentor, don Benito Qoriwaman, taught him for 10
years before he took him on the Hatun Karpay, the great initiation. He
apprenticed that long, before Benito took him on the same journey that I
went on with little more than 2 years of training--the levels and their
trainings are so different with the westerners and the indigenous paqos in
training in Q'ero. On the bus to the Restored Water Temples of Tippan, we
took some young Qero priests who would share an despacho ceremony with us to
the Apus and Pachamama, the earth. Most of them were introduced as being on
the First Level! The oldest and most experienced was the Third Level!
Their levels take far longer to go through compared to a westerners time
frame....a bit of humor in it all, right?
Juan began the Hatun exactly as his mentor had shown him, by attending a
Catholic Mass in the great Cathedral of Cusco, built over the great temple
of the Inka creator god, Wirakocha. It is interesting that an unusual stone
that was Wirakocha's, remains in a corner of the cathedral to this day, and
there was a time when the Catholic priests tried to remove it. But the
indigenous parishoners raised such a great protest, that it was put back. A
good example of syncretism.
Apu: It is interesting because I am living my personal shamanic path
> which is heavily influenced by apu kuntur. A special part of my website
> is dedicated to apu kuntur. Most of my knowledge on shamanism I got from
> him/her, fortunately without cultural imprints.
I really respect that. When I recieved the llama Apu, it was seen as a bit
humorous by two of my mentors. However, only I came to know that the Apu,
or mountain spirit was my ito, the spirit of the mountain that influenced me
as a child in my own country. It came to me in the trappings of Andean
shamanism, as an Andean paqo receives it, always in the form of an animal
like a condor, a puma, a bull, or a star or a man in a white robe, etc. It
was not an Apu from one of the Andean mountains I found out later. I found
this out when I actually went on the Hatun Karpay and realized that my Apu
spirit was not of Peru. But the heart of it was true, a wisdom teaching
passed on to me from a culture other than my own, the land in America. And
it is this: that bodies of water, mountains or natural landmarks have a
powerful influence on us, from birth, or as we're children. There is a true
wisdom in that. In turn, one's eyes open to the special reality of those
powerful mountain (spirits) that surround you in the Andes.
My speciality is dealing
> with death and dying peoples as well as 'defragmenting' the soul.
Ah, yes...I most respect those functions, though I have little to no
training in those directions as of now. Sometimes it is referred here as
the function of the "psychopomp" and "soul retrieval work".
In the
> eyes of a dying one you can see the reflection of the divine - in
> shamanic workings I am allowed to see it for myself during this process
> and whenever it is necessary.
I believe that--I talked with a woman who works with dying children who have
cancer, and she's seen what you describe. In one case, her uncle was at
hospital on his deathbed, and said, why do I see Aunt------? She is
standing over there, but I know she is not real like you standing here, but
I still see her".
When I was first diagnosed with cancer in 1996, I defied caving in to
mainstream advice to have immediate surgery, and soon a skeleton skull with
a set of cross-bones underneath, set up a place for itself, hovering just
above my right shoulder for several months. My cancer was on the left side
of my body. I was still very much into life, but chased by Death itself.
Since I was far from dying, and only afraid of Death, there was no closeness
with divinity for me at that time, just with Death and Life. The second
bout, was much more serious, and I really thought I would die, except I had
a spiritual dream of two luminescent butterflies which showed me, without
words, that I had received the gift of fearlessness once again, lost during
my childhood, and my immortal spirit was perfectly healthy and whole, and
thus, I would live:) This dream was a big turning point since I knew it
wasn't my time yet, after all:). It was against so many odds because I had
such a rare form of cancer that had spread to my stomach, that no one in the
world had the same, and there are few cases recorded in the medical
journals. Thanks goes to the Yew extract, nature's miracle.
Nita:> > The entire study, karpays and experiences in the land of the Inkas
woke me
> > back up to the living world of energy and spirits in all the forces of
> > nature everywhere, not just in Peru. It became a needed balance of
focus
> > away from the emphasis on the inner mind, forged by my training as a
> > hypnotherapist and alternative healing practitioner.
>
Apu:> Shamanism in not only about healing *g*. A thing most people dont even
> realize which are using the term for their own works and actions.
You're right, shamanic practice has separate identifiable job functions, yet
I would say that "healing" is at the basis of many of the shamanic
objectives, or the results desired. If one were to go after another's
spirit, as in being a warrior spirit and sending that spirit off to kill
another's spirit, that is not healing, in any sense of the word. For
practical purposes, I must refer to what I know and practice, & all my
practices aim at healing, although I may use different sets of instructions
in the hope of getting that result. As I mentioned before, I am trained in
spirit intrusion removal and use shamanic methods completely to do so, yet
my intention is to heal, to bring about a normal balance of naturalness for
the person who was troubled. When that balance is achieved, the person's
own spirit, strengthened by the intervention, then makes positive changes
for the patient. That is my opinion, of course, others feel it is they who
do the changing, giving little credit to the patient:).
Why can't the person's own spirit do it without help? I think it compares
to the healthy person, who might have several stressors going on at the same
time, who gets a bad infection in the blood, for example--who then must go
to hospital for antibiotics which are powerful enough to allow his own
natural defenses in his body to take over and wipe out the rest of the
infection. So there are functions like you describe which are not "healing
practices"--yet they are enacted to bring about a beneficent result. I tend
to use the word healing, because people can relate to.... healing as
something good.
Shamanic intent and practice is expressed uniquely from each culture through
the individuality of the practitioner, based on ancient techniques that have
universal truths.
> > and those who I met in the Andes with hearts of gold, and the
teachers who
> > illuminate the Andean spirit around the world. At the same time, I've
found
> > great friends, and often great conversation as well as unusual learning
> > experiences in this news group, an enduring place to come home to:)
>
Apu> It is a success when the initiation did open up new horizons and
> perspectives for you. This is a part of initiations that they are
> opening the mind to new things, besides of being initiated.
Again, the levels of spiritual consciousness are universally recognized as
stages of spiritual growth and enlightment. Yes, the Andean initiation, or
karpay, is an energy transfer, a doorway of potential to the next level,
more than it speaks of an accomplishment. It is certainly NOT a requirement
for personal spiritual advancement. The Q'ero and Juan use it because it is
the Andean custom in the hierarchy there, and when one receives training
from a high Andean priest, such as Juan, it is a traditional part of that
training. When one is karpayed to the fourth level, it means that one is
opened to the level, not that one has completed it. One is really receiving
a sacred rite that recognizes one's ability to open spiritually to new
growth as a candidate for the next level, whatever that may be. It implies
a beginning, and many many years of practice and learning, the higher level
one reaches. Juan says no one yet is considered to be the fifth level...in
the Andean tradition of Peru, but that may change, according to the heads of
the Andean contempory spiritual hierarchy.
The karpay, which entails a spiritual rite or ceremony in which the master
blesses the student with use of the mesa, (power objects and chullus, or
stones wrapped in a mesa cloth for the purpose of containment--when opened
is an alter) is simply a unique expression of the Andean spiritual
hierarchy, which exists as a tradition of spiritual significance and
supports the seriousness of responsibility that goes along with the
privilage. It is always about a doorway, an opening, as you say; to a new
level of spiritual growth. With the Inkas, there is no concept of "original
sin". The Inkas see a person starting as an innocent seed that germinates
within the womb, grows after birth with primary needs of the sun, wind,
earth and water, just like a flower.
> In the light of the secret,
>
> Apu Kuntur.
Munay,
Nita
SilverSong
"Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:avtrau$j29$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "Apu Kuntur" <apu.k...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:avm5t6$dhh$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
> > Hi Nita!
> and
> > the alps there is much preserved of pre-christian believings.
>
> Oh really! This is surprising! If I may interrupt here, a thought
> strikes me through association. You say "southern Germany"--that is
> Bavaria, and I have a very strong attraction to the area, not only that,
but
> took up Bavarian style painting in the early 80's Anyhow, it is
> interesting how there appears to be a connection with these things,
perhaps
> it is my ancestral spirits speaking through my painting....this is a novel
> thought to me, really! Diane--there are others-- in this news group does
> artwork also, she might have something to add here.
Hmm, interesting indeed. As I'm trying to dig up some Dutch ways of
shamanism (and coming up empty as far as historic facts go), I did learn
that the Bavarians had a massive impact on the Netherlands at the time of
Roman occupations. When the Romans left, they occupied the central lands
arround Utrecht, the Veluwe.
If either of you could offer some links or booktitles or other information
about shamanism in the lowlands, I'd be much obliged.
Yerune
Apu Kuntur
> very distinctions...not as a way to deprecate this merging, but to
> appreciate more fully.
the catholics had an easy game when they came here to 'help the poor
pagans' - they simply adopted the power structure already there and
converted the priest-class. many churches were built on ancient pagan
(or shamanic) holy places. Some local spirits resisted and thus came the
occasional naming of for example 'the temptation of mary' which means
that the church tempted to install a holy mary spirit there and
encountered heavy resistance, hence 'temptation', in german: "mariä
versuchung".
> Geomancy? Would you share more about this? This is most interesting! Just
> what is it, as practiced today?
well, the same as many centuries before. dowsing is a vital part of it,
and architecture as well as holy geometry. church-buildings were planned
after radiaesthetic principles. It can be called european feng-shui. It
is a rather big field of action and there are some lines of tradition
very alive here in germany.
> This is so interesting for me! Zos kia cultus....hmmm. I've never heard of
> Austin Spare. From what century?
he died in 1957 in england.
In your opinion, what is the difference
> essentially between a German ancient witch, which is now considered a wicca,
> and a German shaman before the 17th Century?
both of them were of pagan beliefs. The witch (I do not use the term
'Wicca', because it can be misunderstood because of recent
re-introduction by Gardner and such) has an emphasizing on herbal
knowledge and alternative curings. S/he was not a trance-specialist.
> Apu, how was this non-Christian shaman described--what did he or she do?
He was being described as exorcising an evil spirit out of a victim. He
was not called Shaman, but the eye-witness clearly pointed out his
non-christian origins. He mentioned also, that this one was the last he
met of his kind.
> Why was this "shaman" singled out as different from a witch? What is the
> word in German that most closely describes a "shaman" from earlier
> centuries?
There is no word for shamans in german. The seidhman or the seidhkona
was a term used in older times. German aequivalents are rather
specialized versions: Spökenkieker, Heiler, Knochenrenker, Barbier,
Zauberer, Hexer, Quacksalber .... - there are many names for this
business and each one has a special connotation.
> I equate Hildegard von Bingen as a Christian Mystic, yet I also envision her
> as a Christian mystic-shaman.
Yes, she had actually some shamanic traits.
> Why does that sound like the Brothers Grimm, who wrote fairy tales?
Because they are the same ones. I have looked after the authors: It was
Jacob Grimm, one of them.
> Oh...I hope more interesting than mine...after surviving a second bout of
> cancer while you've been gone, I was fortunate to have some interesting
> things go on in my life *at all*:)
Surviving cancer is VERY interesting.
> How startling! Really! Ah, now I see. (Nita, rattling her memory....was
> this during her Third Level with the sorceror, or Fourth level with Juan?)
The place where she met the Apus in their energetic forms, up there with
Juan.
> My my my, how this innocent book has led us both closer to the spirit world
> of who we really are, at least one place where we're closely connected.
Well, it simply was giving me an answer to a question I never asked to
my spirit-companion. Reading in her book that she stood on the very same
plattform I use for many years to meet with some others made me aware
that my 'lower world' is actually the south american continent. Later on
I verified other landmarks and checked my protocols on them.
> first time I had a Past Life Regression, I was Iknaten, the Sun God Ruler of
> New Egypt. So since my husband was going to the Borders book store, I asked
> him to pick up the book for me.
I have a rather sceptic approach to PLR because of exactly this results
you describe. Do you still believe in being Akhenaten in former times?
What do you remember from this time? I happen to know many things from
this times, because it is a part of my private studies. Akhenaten was
not female, by the ways :-)
As for my own part I have vivid memories of my last (linear spoken) live
here on earth. The 'awakening' nearly destroyed me because I learned
things about myself I never had even a glimpse of. It shook my very base
of live and threw me out of normal lines of thought: suddenly I had
memories of my last live 1500 years ago. I still speak the tongue I used
then, during shamanic trance sessions.
> Ummm. Trying to get this....not sure what "mallku hake" is translated to in
> English. A type of priest, a level of priest?
Simply 'condor-man'. A down-to-the-core description of what I am. As I
wrote, I know of only one other in europe (somewhere in dutch I
suppose). We regularly meet on the place, Jenkins described (see above).
Some of us are not incorporated, others are.
> universal symbol of spirituality, isn't it, and transcends cultures. When
> the children joined hands with me, a type of Andean Eagle flew overhead.
Yes, the spirits often use animals-guise in order to show presence. Same
here in bavaria, but with our eagles and buzzards. It is always a
touching experience. Because of the lack of condors here, they use
eagles or buzzards in order to get signs clear :-)
> Earlier, a shop woman had given me a CONDOR feather that she said would be
> very powerful for me away from Peru, when I work with clients. So it lays
> on the top of my mesa in my office, waiting to play out it's magic.
You can have a look at http://www.kondor.de/condor/tanz_e.html where I
am writing on the Condor. There you can look at some photos where I can
be seen, demonstrating some positions of the Condor-Dance.
> Nita: my ring broke during the energy transmission of the karpay
*g* no wonder.
> the First Level! The oldest and most experienced was the Third Level!
> Their levels take far longer to go through compared to a westerners time
> frame....a bit of humor in it all, right?
Not really. It shows clearly that these people are the same as we are.
Most persons here are quite the same. The difference between the ones
undertaking the Initiation rites in S-America to the others is, that the
normal ones never have the idea to do this because simply they cannot
effort the costs or dont have the open-minded structure inside them.
They are security-thinkers and have a horizon as far as the borders of
their estates go, or their villages priest predict to them. The typical
Westerner is quite the same level one person as the typical indio.
(irony on) Sometimes I think, even below the first (irony off).
It came to me in the trappings of Andean
> shamanism, as an Andean paqo receives it, always in the form of an animal
> like a condor, a puma, a bull, or a star or a man in a white robe, etc.
Yes, the spirits use different gestalts to appear.
> it is this: that bodies of water, mountains or natural landmarks have a
> powerful influence on us, from birth, or as we're children. There is a true
> wisdom in that. In turn, one's eyes open to the special reality of those
> powerful mountain (spirits) that surround you in the Andes.
our geomantic traditions always point that out.
> Why can't the person's own spirit do it without help?
There you must divide between practitioners and non-practitioners. The
practitioner can actually heal himself, not so the non-practitioner. It
is difficult, sometimes, but as efficient as if it is being done by
someone else. I long believed in the fact that shamans cannot heal
themselves. I learned the opposite by doing it.
> training. When one is karpayed to the fourth level, it means that one is
> opened to the level, not that one has completed it.
A lesson many reiki-masters still have to learn.
> one reaches. Juan says no one yet is considered to be the fifth level...in
> the Andean tradition of Peru, but that may change, according to the heads of
> the Andean contempory spiritual hierarchy.
The disadvantage of hierarchy is that humans made it. Maybe they should
look outside their normal lines of thought? The "... in the Andean
tradition of Peru ..." indicates that Juan is aware of this problem.
In the light of the Secret,
Apu Kuntur.
Apu Kuntur
> wrote, I know of only one other in europe (somewhere in dutch I
> suppose). We regularly meet on the place, Jenkins described (see above).
> Some of us are not incorporated, others are.
I meant 'incarnated' - suddenly realizing, incorporated means something
different. (verkörpert in german)
*g*
Apu Kuntur.
Azathool
"Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:avtrau$j29$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "Apu Kuntur" <apu.k...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:avm5t6$dhh$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> > catholic church NEVER had anything against magic, only against the
> > non-christian version of it. They developed and kept magic secrets and
> > practice until today. One traditional shamanic path - the geomantic
> > knowledge - is till preserved here and transmitted outside of the
> > churches ways.
>
> Geomancy? Would you share more about this? This is most interesting! Just
> what is it, as practiced today? My head spins sometimes, because there is
> such an interweaving of religion and shamanism as related to sacred
> practices. When I experienced the mass in the Cathedral over the Temple of
> Wirokocha, the Inka Creator God, and participated in the sacrement, I felt a
> sacred presence that's transcends creeds. Before the mass, I'd had a
> problem with altitude sickness affecting my heartbeat...I was scared, since
> it was only the beginning of the Hatun and I didn't want to have to be
> shipped back home! Somehow, I sung my heart out with intent to heal,
> joining the indigenous people and the metizos in their singing to Spirit,
> manifested by Jesus. And that day, my heart righted itself.
>
Umm... Geomantic is the modern name I think... and used to predict the future
using dirt, but instead of dirt, sand, dust or mud is used.
This is some small pieces of information I have gathered... (the accuracy in my
scribbles is left to any representative of each group that is lurking here in
a.r.s)
Arabian geomantics looked upon the patterns built when the sand was trhown on a
plain surface.
The Navaho medicinemen let the sand trickle through the fingers and profesized by
interpreting the patterns the sand made when it hit the ground
In Africa, the witchdoctors let a crab crawl across in a bowl with wet sand and
afterwards interpreted the marks the claws left in the sand.
Modern inventions consists of studying random stickmarks in the ground - a
procedure that reminds a bit of automatic writing.
If one lack sand, one instead can use a pice of paper on which a pen or pencil is
allowed to freely walk around on. It shall be done by making four separate rows
with randomly placed dots.
Afterwards the dots are counted in each row, where two dots represents an even
number and one dot an uneven. This way every four row-group is transformed into
one of sixten possible figures, who's latin names probably originates from the
11th century.
Some prefer to interpret the figures as is, while some manipulate them in a
complicated system which make some figures cross into each other and then gets
interpreted. I wont put down the names of the figures, since they can't be drawn
in this post.
-------------------
A way to perform ...
Put some dry, fine grain sand or dirt on a tray, or a flat spot on the ground. To
draw one need a small sharp stick or a pencil. Be silent (of course), and either
sit in the dark or use a blindfold. The questioner sits beside the interpreter and
concentrate on the question.
Let the wrist lean against the edge of the tray in a way that the end of the sharp
object only touches the surface. Empty your mind of all thoughts and impressions,
and let the stick or pencil wonder over the surface at its own will. What is drawn
must not be studied until you are sure that it is finished.
Afterwards, one perhaps discover whole or parts of letters, or words written
down, or symbols and signs and they are later interpreted.
Azathool
"Apu Kuntur" <apu.k...@t-online.de> skrev i meddelandet
news:avu65u$vhv$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
> > Why does that sound like the Brothers Grimm, who wrote fairy tales?
>
> Because they are the same ones. I have looked after the authors: It was
> Jacob Grimm, one of them.
>
Hmm. wasn´t the Brother Grimm originaly mostly collecting old fairytales and
publishing them in a mean to spread them on to further genarations?
Azathool
I missinterpreted the word Geomancy. So disregard this post as it has nothing to
with the question
"Azathool" <azat...@straycats.lair> skrev i meddelandet
news:lyCU9.2021$EG4....@nntpserver.swip.net...
Di-a-rama
<nita...@erols.com> wrote:
> Oh really! This is surprising! If I may interrupt here, a thought
> strikes me through association. You say "southern Germany"--that is
> Bavaria, and I have a very strong attraction to the area, not only that, but
> took up Bavarian style painting in the early 80's Anyhow, it is
> interesting how there appears to be a connection with these things, perhaps
> it is my ancestral spirits speaking through my painting....this is a novel
> thought to me, really! Diane--there are others-- in this news group does
> artwork also, she might have something to add here.
I'm not sure if I can add much here...I do think that if people practice the
ancient folk arts and crafts that there can be a wonderful alignment with
ancestor energy. The brain works very differently when working with
spatial, non-linear activities, but I think that is only the start. The
critic does not exist in that part of us, either, so we are free to cross
boundaries as we see fit.
As for me, my work is very contemporary. If there is any ancestor contact
through my work, it is obscured by some kind of "universe interference".
LOL--it's only static on that frequency...
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
3e22797d$0$75619$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl, "SilverSong"
<Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
"Practical Magic in the Northern Tradition"
Nigel Pennick
Paperback - 290 pages (May 1994)
Thoth Publications; ISBN: 1870450167
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1870450167/qid=1042481277/sr=1-1/re
f=sr_1_0_1/026-5409652-7276417
Synopsis:
This book is about the beliefs and spiritual techniques indigenous to
northern Europe, known as the Northern Tradition. It explores the basic
aspects of the spiritual experience rooted in the lands of the north. This
is the area of human consciousness sought out and entered by meditators and
holy men, martial artists, magicians and shamans, wise women, cunning men
and, sometimes, ordinary people. The Northern Tradition is seen as
appropriate to the climate, culture and peoples of northern Europe and an
integral part of a proper understanding of our culture or history. The
Northern tradition, derived from Celtic, Saxon, Norse and Baltic practices
is examined from ancient origins to modern usage and explains the craft of
working with natural forces.
(Back cover states: "The Northern Tradition is the indigenous spiritual and
magical system of European peoples north of the Alps. With its origin in
archaic shamanic nature-veneration...etc.)
--
"Secrets of East Anglian Magic"
Nigel Pennick
Paperback - 192 pages (1 November, 1995)
Robert Hale; ISBN: 0709056796
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0709056796/qid%3D1042481161/026-540
9652-7276417
(less relevant except that there was a strong Dutch influence in East
Anglia....)
--
Cheers,
Dianne
SilverSong
"Azathool" <azat...@straycats.lair> wrote in message
news:HECU9.2023$EG4....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> Hmm. I like to make a withdraval here...
> I missinterpreted the word Geomancy. So disregard this post as it has
nothing to
> with the question
Too late Aza ;)
And you know, even if Geomancy is a bit like a magical Feng Shui, it's still
talking with the land and taking it's energies into account. I don't see why
diviniation techniques are left out of Geomancy.
Y
SilverSong
I need a second job.
"Di-a-rama" <bro...@SPAM.com> wrote in message
news:BA484205.24E3B%bro...@SPAM.com...
She Devil With A Rubber Chicken
now I am done and have been lurking for a bit, but now I see that things are
getting interesting again.
In article <avtrau$j29$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
Nita Byrd <nita...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>"Apu Kuntur" <apu.k...@t-online.de> wrote in message
>news:avm5t6$dhh$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
>> Hi Nita!
>>
>Nita> > shamanism in Germany, and if there is a relationship to
>witchcraft, or are
>> > we talking about separate practices, >
>
>Apu> I will try to answer it right here. In the southern parts of germany
>and
>> the alps there is much preserved of pre-christian believings.
>
> Oh really! This is surprising! If I may interrupt here, a thought
>strikes me through association. You say "southern Germany"--that is
>Bavaria, and I have a very strong attraction to the area, not only that, but
>took up Bavarian style painting in the early 80's Anyhow, it is
>interesting how there appears to be a connection with these things, perhaps
>it is my ancestral spirits speaking through my painting....this is a novel
>thought to me, really! Diane--there are others-- in this news group does
>artwork also, she might have something to add here.
>
>Apu: 'shamans'
>> were viped out at least many hundreds years ago, even in pre-christian
>> times these seidhmen were not many in numbers. Some of the shamanic
>> traditions remained alive in the catholic rites.
Here are some of the traditions that I know about.
I know that there are many holidays which overlap existing pagan ones.
"All Saints" coincides with Samhain. "Lady Day" (celebration of Mary)
coincides with Walpurgis/Bealtaine. There is Fasching/Carnival, which
is a sort of "anti-Lent".
One of the more interesting things I saw in Germany, especially the
south, was a tradition of blessing a Gasthaus (inn) or tavern by having
the towsnpeople parade through the streets with a large pole, usually
decorated in the blue and white (Bavaria's colors, more on this later).
This pole would be suspended over the new drinking establishment to
bring good luck. Since brewing and the harvest were generally associated
with Frey, I would guess it is probably very much related to the May Pole
tradition, popular all over Europe and with blatantly pagan origins.
The white and blue diamonds represent the earth (the white mountains)
against the sky, and the Maypole is meant to symbolize the wedding of
Earth and Sky. I saw these poles suspended over the doors of taverns
as far north as the Rhineland Pfaltz, where I was stationed.
And of course there is the Yule tree tradition, the Boar's Head
tradition, etc. etc.
>Nita> Do you know, if any, books currently
>> > in English, that have a historical perspective shamanically, on the area
>> > that became known as Germany?
>>
>> No I cannot help you there. In german there was being published a
>> trilogy by the gebrüder grimm, deutsche mythologie, but I dont know
>> whether it is being translated into english or not.
>
>Why does that sound like the Brothers Grimm, who wrote fairy tales? I have
>the feeling, this could open up a whole new discussion:)
Teutonic Mythology has indeed been translated into English, but it has been
out of print for years. Getting one's hands on a copy of it is considered
to be a GOLDEN find among the Asatruar of my community. The elder of Forn
Sed, HeimdallR, has a copy. It is a rare and precious series and source of
excellent information, as a great deal of the lore and the original belief
system were hidden in those "fairy tales". It is to the point where the
thirsty-for-knowledge Asatruar trade *XEROXES* of Teutonic Mythology as if
they were precious gems.
My wedding rite had a reading of Svipdagsmal, for example. This is found
in the Poetic Edda and is considered to be the source for the fairy tales
of Snow White, Sleeping Beauty and Briar Rose.
I have had to settle for this pair of books concerning the Brothers Grimm,
but they are good references:
Grimm's Complete Fairy Tales
Barnes & Noble/Doubleday, 1993
ISBN# 0-88029-519-8 (casebound)
0-76070-335-3 (leatherbound)
(collection of 211 tales)
The Hard Facts of the Grimm's Fairy Tales
Maria Tatar, Princeton University Press, 1987
ISBN# 0-691-01487-6 (softcover)
Interesting book that begins with an excellent history of the Bros. Grimm,
the perspective of the time when they were writing, and what can be learned
from the way they modified their tales between editions (i.e. what "sex
and violence" they cut out - or added!); progresses to an extremely in-depth
analysis of recurring themes and certain "types" of tales. It then ends
with copies of translations of the original prefaces to various early
editions of the work, and an index of translations for story titles from
English to German. A very valuable reference.
--
"As she went forth, her white neck shone, With | Do NOT taunt ^ /o\
jewels of ice and fire; and in her path the | Really Jazzed |/\v/---
flowers they grew, For the Lady of the Vanir." | Newlywed NYC b ^ | |
-- Alice Karlsdottir, Mountain Thunder | Valkyrie! | / \ V
Di-a-rama
Devil With A Rubber Chicken" <reds...@liii.com> wrote:
> I am back too. It was nice of Joe to ask me to return. I did my walkabout,
> now I am done and have been lurking for a bit, but now I see that things are
> getting interesting again.
((((Welcome back, Lady Mead-Mistress!!))) :D
Cheers,
Dianne
She Devil With A Rubber Chicken
:) Thanks.
Azathool
"SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:3e230b6b$0$151$e4fe...@dreader7.news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "Azathool" <azat...@straycats.lair> wrote in message
> news:HECU9.2023$EG4....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> > Hmm. I like to make a withdraval here...
> > I missinterpreted the word Geomancy. So disregard this post as it has
> nothing to
> > with the question
>
> Too late Aza ;)
>
> And you know, even if Geomancy is a bit like a magical Feng Shui, it's still
> talking with the land and taking it's energies into account. I don't see why
> diviniation techniques are left out of Geomancy.
>
> Y
Thank you, Yeroun. Maybe soo. But still my post was off-topic for this thread.
Maybe it is time to take a breake after all. Holidays are over and work is crawing
attention again.
Nita Byrd
> Hi Nita!
>
> > very distinctions...not as a way to deprecate this merging, but to
> > appreciate more fully.
>
> the catholics had an easy game when they came here to 'help the poor
> pagans' - they simply adopted the power structure already there and
> converted the priest-class. many churches were built on ancient pagan
> (or shamanic) holy places. Some local spirits resisted and thus came the
> occasional naming of for example 'the temptation of mary' which means
> that the church tempted to install a holy mary spirit there and
> encountered heavy resistance, hence 'temptation', in german: "mariä
> versuchung".
Wow, never heard about this before. Fascinating. So the church attempted
to install a Catholic holy spirit like Mary, in a newly-built church over
pagan sacred temple grounds, and there was heavy resistance-- What kind of
resistance--what took place? "Temptation" means another nuance, it means
something makes you give in to a vice or weakness--as in one is "tempted" to
commit a vice again, like go back to drinking alcohol, for example.
> > Geomancy? Would you share more about this? This is most interesting!
Just
> > what is it, as practiced today?
>
> well, the same as many centuries before. dowsing is a vital part of it,
> and architecture as well as holy geometry. church-buildings were planned
> after radiaesthetic principles. It can be called european feng-shui. It
> is a rather big field of action and there are some lines of tradition
> very alive here in germany.
Oh, now I think I know where I've heard that term. The Masons.....never
thought that this would come up as related to shamanic practices in Germany!
I shouldn't be surprised, I picked up a book the other day on The Masons,
since my husband's father was a deacon in the org. before he died. I also
sought to find out what connection they had with the Knights Templar. It is
interesting that there is a connection with the masons and shamanism in
Germany though. Also, my ancestral family, the Stuarts, had a very close
association to the Masons at one time. Hmmm....it would seem that much of
the European Masons' foundations came from a combination of Egyptian
building knowledge combined with Greek geometric principles.
> > This is so interesting for me! Zos kia cultus....hmmm. I've never
heard of
> > Austin Spare. From what century?
>
> he died in 1957 in england.
>
> In your opinion, what is the difference
> > essentially between a German ancient witch, which is now considered a
wicca,
> > and a German shaman before the 17th Century?
>
> both of them were of pagan beliefs. The witch (I do not use the term
> 'Wicca', because it can be misunderstood because of recent
> re-introduction by Gardner and such) has an emphasizing on herbal
> knowledge and alternative curings. S/he was not a trance-specialist.
Ahhh. So we have the
witch = herbal applications and alternative curings with little or no
element of trancework.
The German shaman however, was closely associated with hypnosis, or
trancework....
now that's an interesting association for me, since I've worked with
hypnosis for several years now.
I wonder what one would be called if there was practice of trance, herbal
and alternative cures...if a separate category?
>
> > Apu, how was this non-Christian shaman described--what did he or she do?
>
> He was being described as exorcising an evil spirit out of a victim. He
> was not called Shaman, but the eye-witness clearly pointed out his
> non-christian origins. He mentioned also, that this one was the last he
> met of his kind.
So that exorcism would have been taken over by the Catholic Church as their
own domain, when it was actually attributable to the shamans of pagan
cultures. That's an eye-opener right there.
>
> > Why was this "shaman" singled out as different from a witch? What is
the
> > word in German that most closely describes a "shaman" from earlier
> > centuries?
>
> There is no word for shamans in german. The seidhman or the seidhkona
> was a term used in older times.
Yes, Aza has pointed that out, for one, as I recall.
German aequivalents are rather
> specialized versions: Spökenkieker, Heiler, Knochenrenker, Barbier,
> Zauberer, Hexer, Quacksalber .... - there are many names for this
> business and each one has a special connotation.
So, these were the specialists. So some of the above were witches, some
were shaman or healer types who used trance either on themselves or did it
to another? I know that the barbers did some healing work along with
cutting hair and grew quite competitive with the apothecary men in Scotland,
anyway, during late medieval to the Renaissance, I believe it was. The
barbers were also the surgeons for a while. So really to get to the bottom
of shamanic like practices in Germany, we have to look at the specialists.
Of course, not all these used trance. Many were "folk healers" right? They
would know practical herbs for medicinal use and spells for healing and
curing the sick. It is interesting that you associate working with trance
as the most defining characteristic of the Germanic shamanic practitioner,
but it makes good sense. My next question is, how did the practitioner work
with trance? Was it with hypnosis of a type before Mesmerism became popular
do you suppose?
> > I equate Hildegard von Bingen as a Christian Mystic, yet I also envision
her
> > as a Christian mystic-shaman.
>
> Yes, she had actually some shamanic traits.
>
> > Why does that sound like the Brothers Grimm, who wrote fairy tales?
>
> Because they are the same ones. I have looked after the authors: It was
> Jacob Grimm, one of them.
So as Flora has alluded, one of our most well-read members, there lie below
the surface of fairy stories shamanic truths? An example might be the Frog
and the Prince fairy tale. The heroine with the pure heart kisses a frog
who was placed under a spell, and he transforms into a handsome and entirely
desirable prince. Might the essence point to trance-formation, the
possibility that spiritual beauty underlies everyone and everything? And
that it is possible to change...right now? I'm sure there are others
reading who have a better grasp than me.
> > Surviving cancer is VERY interesting.
It has different phases to it...the hero's journey, perhaps. I have come
such a long way in how I've related to it. Starting with being terrified by
the big "C", to seeing it as a little "c", to learning to focus almost
exclusively on what is going right. It is a complete *shift* of focus since
the first meeting with it.
> > The place where she met the Apus in their energetic forms, up there with
> Juan.
Oh. It's been awhile since I read the book. Will review later when I have
time.
> Well, it simply was giving me an answer to a question I never asked to
> my spirit-companion. Reading in her book that she stood on the very same
> plattform I use for many years to meet with some others made me aware
> that my 'lower world' is actually the south american continent. Later on
> I verified other landmarks and checked my protocols on them.
That is very exciting. I know this made it's mark as a significant
connection for you. One of my signposts was when I had a lucid dream and it
was bigger than life. I understood for the first time what I really was:).
>
> > first time I had a Past Life Regression, I was Akenaten, the Sun God
Ruler of
> > New Egypt. So since my husband was going to the Borders book store, I
asked
> > him to pick up the book for me.
>
> I have a rather sceptic approach to PLR because of exactly this results
> you describe. Do you still believe in being Akhenaten in former times?
No not in physical reality, no. But then, I'm sure I don't approach the
field the same way you or someone else might. As in all other world
approaches, views and perspectives differ. In fact, my view is that one
doesn't have to belief in the actual physical reincarnation process to have
a successful PLR. Hard to explain this, but it doesn't mean it is any less
valid an experience for me, than if I really were Akenaten. Since the
dimension of PLR has it's own unique field of space which seems to be
non-linear, it is possible to find some kind of "soul connection" to another
human being who no longer exists. So when I say I was Akenaten, I was him
in my PLR journey to the spirit world of that dimension. At first, I
thought I was just a merchant on a barge going down the nile, and I was
satisfied with that, until I saw Nefertiti reclining on layers of blankets
and cushions in a room with me. Then I had to admit who I must be. What he
stood for, has a spiritual connection on a deep level with who I am. I
haven't finished delving into the layers of meaning.
> What do you remember from this time? I happen to know many things from
> this times, because it is a part of my private studies. Akhenaten was
> not female, by the ways :-)
:) No of course not. One not need limit the exploration of a PLR to finding
oneself only in the body of the same gender, not at all! The spirit goes
whereever it pleases, and is not restricted to one's own physical gender in
present reality. When I take clients to a past life, there is the same
freedom. I once took a gay man into a PLR and he was a female dancer in a
harem! There is far more to this than just description for entertainment,
btw. As I do all my clients, he described where he was, in great detail,
sights, sounds, what he was wearing, etc., his family life, his
relationships, significant events, seeing his death from out of body,
looking at an over-view of the entire life and what lesson might be learned
from it, and bringing something of value gained through living through that
life, back to this life.
> As for my own part I have vivid memories of my last (linear spoken) live
> here on earth. The 'awakening' nearly destroyed me because I learned
> things about myself I never had even a glimpse of. It shook my very base
> of live and threw me out of normal lines of thought: suddenly I had
> memories of my last live 1500 years ago. I still speak the tongue I used
> then, during shamanic trance sessions.
It's a powerful connection for you...especially as it opens up a direct
connection with shamanic practice. My PLR had value in another, less direct
way.
> > Ummm. Trying to get this....not sure what "mallku hake" is translated
to in
> > English. A type of priest, a level of priest?
. When
> > the children joined hands with me, a type of Andean Eagle flew overhead.
>
> Yes, the spirits often use animals-guise in order to show presence. Same
> here in bavaria, but with our eagles and buzzards. It is always a
> touching experience. Because of the lack of condors here, they use
> eagles or buzzards in order to get signs clear :-)
Occams razor also....it can also be that birds fly over a group of humans
doing sacred or other things, because they have the quality of curiosity, as
we do....the simplest reason is often the right one:) This observation
doesn't take away the spiritual aspect, however.
> > Earlier, a shop woman had given me a CONDOR feather that
> You can have a look at http://www.kondor.de/condor/tanz_e.html where I
> am writing on the Condor. There you can look at some photos where I can
> be seen, demonstrating some positions of the Condor-Dance.
Yes, thank you , I'll take a look soon.
>
> > Nita: my ring broke during the energy transmission of the karpay
>
> *g* no wonder.
>
> > the First Level! The oldest and most experienced was the Third Level!
> > Their levels take far longer to go through compared to a westerners time
> > frame....a bit of humor in it all, right?
>
> Not really. It shows clearly that these people are the same as we are.
> Most persons here are quite the same. The difference between the ones
> undertaking the Initiation rites in S-America to the others is, that the
> normal ones never have the idea to do this because simply they cannot
> effort the costs or dont have the open-minded structure inside them.
> They are security-thinkers and have a horizon as far as the borders of
> their estates go, or their villages priest predict to them. The typical
> Westerner is quite the same level one person as the typical indio.
> (irony on) Sometimes I think, even below the first (irony off).
Well, I have a different impression. I've been taught by both my Andean
mentors that most westerners are already at the Third Level
when they become exposed to Inka shamanism. The young paqo, or priest
initiates, in their own culture considered themselves at the First Level,
whereas, we Westerners really don't equate ourselves that closely with the
Qeros ACTUAL system of levels. So it has to have different meanings for
them than it does for the Westerner. The big difference is that as in all
indigenous culturs, shamanic training takes a much much longer time of study
and practice, than is typical in our general time frame of the western
world. I think for example, that knowing and working with healing already,
allowed me to be given entrance to the Third Level, in roughly a good
parallel to the Q'ero level at the Third. However, if I were a Q'ero paqo,
it would have taken me years to reach the Third Level. There is a great
deal to said for the value of many years of practice in each phase of
learning shamanic practice. It is like advertisement in business, one can't
have too much of it:). So with that in mind, I continue to be ever more
humble as I know that my few years starting with the Third Level and now
having been Karpayed twice on the Fourth Level, is not much compared to the
average Qero paqo training and interacting in his/her culture, who will make
a lifetime of being a shaman priest, 40 or 50 years.
> Yes, the spirits use different gestalts to appear.
>
> > it is this: that bodies of water, mountains or natural landmarks have a
> > powerful influence on us, from birth, or as we're children. There is a
true
> > wisdom in that. In turn, one's eyes open to the special reality of
those
> > powerful mountain (spirits) that surround you in the Andes.
>
> our geomantic traditions always point that out.
? specifically, which tradition? European? I've only been in touch
directly with the Andean tradition, specifically the Inka teachings. The
Inkas even have a special name for that natural power place that influences
one at birth, the Itu.
> > Why can't the person's own spirit do it without help?
>
> There you must divide between practitioners and non-practitioners. The
> practitioner can actually heal himself, not so the non-practitioner. It
> is difficult, sometimes, but as efficient as if it is being done by
> someone else. I long believed in the fact that shamans cannot heal
> themselves. I learned the opposite by doing it.
Hmmm. I actually see shamanic practitioners as being on different levels of
ability, and some can heal things about themselves, while others have not
yet reached the skill level to do so. Others are quite good at self
healing. Other situations call strongly for help from another one. My
survival wasn't based only on what I could do for myself, it also came about
from a community of alternative healers, as well as loving support. It is
true that I did much for myself, much more than the normal person has the
skills to do. However, none of us escapes Death, it is important to keep
that in mind. Yet a potentially lethal disease can be made less powerful
and turned into a chronic health problem sometimes just by having great
support of loved ones, and through other spiritual healers giving
alternative support. Not only the alternative, but sometimes the mainstream
comes through with surprising solutions which make the difference between
survival and dying.
>
> > training. When one is karpayed to the fourth level, it means that one is
> > opened to the level, not that one has completed it.
>
> A lesson many reiki-masters still have to learn.
>
> > one reaches. Juan says no one yet is considered to be the fifth
level...in
> > the Andean tradition of Peru, but that may change, according to the
heads of
> > the Andean contempory spiritual hierarchy.
>
> The disadvantage of hierarchy is that humans made it. Maybe they should
> look outside their normal lines of thought? The "... in the Andean
> tradition of Peru ..." indicates that Juan is aware of this problem.
He knows the hierarchy very well, he is one of the most respected priests in
Peru. The hierarchy is arbitrary of course, but the interesting thing is
that is has humility built into it's very time-consuming phases of spiritual
advancement. It is far too easy to fall a victim to ego inflation, thus,
the years of training and practice. Ah... the challenge is actually, there
are known to the modern Inka priests at least 7 clear stages of
consciousness, and although it is clear that they are attainable, you
yourself never judge what level you are on, it is only your teachers and
others who are the judge of that. So if you reach the Fourth Level, there
are at least 4 levels within that level, you see, and to be considered the
Fifth Level, you would need to show your teachers and others *around the
world* that you could *heal anyone at any time*. A Sixth Level would need
to be able to do that, as well as to rule a country. The Inka ruler, who
was chosen because of a halo appearing at the temple ceremony that was held
to elect the next ruler, was considered a Sixth Level. So the levels in the
Inka spiritual definition are not limitations, they are descriptions of
super-human possibility, which many, no matter how much they wish, simply
fall short at this time, but the promise is still there, and included in the
prophecies.
So yes, my mentor Juan Nunez del Prado realizes of course, that others have
conceptualized similar phases of spiritual growth represented by levels of
consciousness. He pointed one out, a European I think, but I don't have my
notes handy...I just wanted to make clear that there are distinct levels in
the Andean hierarchy, and a specific way to be recognized as having reached
that level...through the karpays by the masters and through their training,
which was almost always received in the same way from his mentors through
linages of shaman priests.
There are many secrets...
Munay,
Nita
Nita Byrd
would perhaps fall into the category. Quite informative. It could begin a
thread all it's own anyway. Divination isn't related to healing all that
much, and really stands out as being a good example of a shamanic practice
which stands on its own. In Peru in some places they are known as seers,
since their specialty is divination. There was a lot of divination using
*entrails* in the Inka priest's shamanic practices once. I believe the
Romans used animal entrails as well. It isn't common to what the Q'ero, the
direct inheritor's of most of the Inka shamanic practices, use today. In
the Andes of Peru some shamans divinate with the use of coca tea leaves
thrown into hot water for tea. Tea readers, who divinate using them, are
known in other cultures as well. In the Andes of Peru, they are the pampa
mesayoks. They are the people's healers--use herbs and know the magical or
left side of the spiritual path. They are the healers and are in close
touch with the spirits of nature, and of the animals-- they don't speak with
them directly, but sometimes gain knowledge from dreams and what is being
taught by their own mentor. They also know a great deal about the proper
order & manor of ritual and ceremony. I once hiked up the steep steps to
the top of the village of Chinchero, outside of Cusco, to meet and have a
divination by a well-known seer of the region. He was an old man and had
fallen the week before, so was not able to give either my roommate or I a
coca leaves reading, which was I admit, a little disappointing. But just to
be in his presence was unique. The Foundation For the Study of Shamanism
(Michael Harner's teachings) offers divination as one of their weekend
trainings.
Nita
"Azathool" <azat...@straycats.lair> wrote in message
news:lMNU9.2071$EG4....@nntpserver.swip.net...
Apu Kuntur
> Wow, never heard about this before. Fascinating. So the church attempted
> to install a Catholic holy spirit like Mary, in a newly-built church over
> pagan sacred temple grounds, and there was heavy resistance-- What kind of
> resistance--what took place?
The local spirit of the mentioned location resisted in being exorcised.
When you enter that particular church (it is in fact a chapel) you have
the distinct feeling of being not welcome at all.
> Oh, now I think I know where I've heard that term. The Masons.....never
> thought that this would come up as related to shamanic practices in Germany!
The Masons did know many things. But nowadays these professionals have
no knowledge of this at all. Once the people planning a structure were
called "Baumeister", today they are called "Architekten" - a big
difference. However I know at least one architect which still has much
knowledge on this and in northern germany one village is being built
after principles of geomancy.
Note that I don't speak of the Freemasons, which are a completely
different species, however with common origins.
> association to the Masons at one time. Hmmm....it would seem that much of
> the European Masons' foundations came from a combination of Egyptian
> building knowledge combined with Greek geometric principles.
yes. the holy geometry was once a big part of the principles, and the
knowledge of earthen energies.
> So that exorcism would have been taken over by the Catholic Church as their
> own domain, when it was actually attributable to the shamans of pagan
> cultures. That's an eye-opener right there.
no, the church is practicing its own kind of exorcism. I met one of the
last exorcist of the church some years ago. Nowadays the church realized
that many non-christian exorcists are around and thus there are some new
official exorcists around.
> Of course, not all these used trance. Many were "folk healers" right?
yes, but shamans are always a kind of folk-healers, as I am.
> with trance? Was it with hypnosis of a type before Mesmerism became popular
> do you suppose?
well, difficult to answer. You have to distinct between mesmerism and
normal hypnosis. the latter is lacking the vital-force which made the
mesmerism succesful.
> So as Flora has alluded, one of our most well-read members, there lie below
> the surface of fairy stories shamanic truths?
many, indeed.
> No not in physical reality, no. But then, I'm sure I don't approach the
> field the same way you or someone else might. As in all other world
> approaches, views and perspectives differ. In fact, my view is that one
> doesn't have to belief in the actual physical reincarnation process to have
> a successful PLR. Hard to explain this, but it doesn't mean it is any less
> valid an experience for me, than if I really were Akenaten.
I understand what you are trying to tell me very well.
> Well, I have a different impression. I've been taught by both my Andean
> mentors that most westerners are already at the Third Level
> when they become exposed to Inka shamanism.
They are right. You forgot that only very view actually ARE exposed to
andean shamanism. That is the point I tried to bring into reason. The
westerners are as far as anyone around here in the world. The ones which
can effort some thousands of dollars to get to south america and an
initiation into lvl 3 or above are always exceptions to the rule.
> ? specifically, which tradition? European?
yes.
> Hmmm. I actually see shamanic practitioners as being on different levels of
> ability, and some can heal things about themselves, while others have not
> yet reached the skill level to do so.
yes, another valid approach.
> He knows the hierarchy very well, he is one of the most respected priests in
> Peru. The hierarchy is arbitrary of course, but the interesting thing is
> that is has humility built into it's very time-consuming phases of spiritual
> advancement. It is far too easy to fall a victim to ego inflation, thus,
> the years of training and practice.
That the andean system is not infallable I have experienced with an
rather arrogant 4th level initiate some years ago. It was an american
woman, I remember.
> Ah... the challenge is actually, there
> .... super-human possibility, which many, no matter how much they wish, simply
> fall short at this time, but the promise is still there, and included in the
> prophecies.
Yes, I know this all.
> There are many secrets...
Of course. Some of them are better kept secret.
In the Light of the Secret,
Apu Kuntur.
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Thu, Jan 16, 2003, 4:28am From:
nita...@erols.com (Nita Byrd)
]......Divination isn't related to healing
]mentor. <snip>
Actually, my very first lesson in divination was with regard to healing
and I have used it ever since for that (along with using it for other
things). It can be quite useful for diagnosing ills of the spiritual or
physical nature and be helpful in determining treatments for ailments.
I've used both the typical pendulum type of technique or crystals and
other stones. Its always a treat to stand in a health food store with
your little pendulum hung over a bottle of supplements to see which way
it swings to determine whether you need that particular herbal remedy or
not.....You get alot of interesting looks from other shoppers....but
hey.....with the price of supplements there's no point in buying
something you don't need! :-) And to my mind, that's just one aspect of
its use, for healing purposes....
Seeking direction with regard to personal problems, anywhere where there
is disharmony or confusion, is another example of divination for healing
purposes since I equate restoring balance or something to harmony as a
form of healing also. I work alot with different stones too and they
can be useful not just as divination tools but as actual healing
remedies for various ailments since different stones embody different
energies. Of course, I was taught specifically in this manner of
divination by a healer, so maybe my mileage is varying a bit here with
regard to this as compared to what many others might do with the skill.
Sloop
Nita Byrd
shamanism, such as divination, that may be further removed from healing, per
se, since in this newsgroup the word "healing" seems to bring about a
knee-jerk response every time, from at least one subscriber, without fail:).
HEALING is a significant aspect of shamanic practice in today's world, if
not the core of western, shamanic practice.
As a matter of fact, I don't think that I or anyone who is a regular here
would say that shamanism is _only about healing_ but almost everytime it is
mentioned as being an important aspect of shamanic practice, out comes
someone to remind me and others that shamanism isn't _only_ about healing.
The trouble with that is that no one I know here ever says that--that
shamanism is only about healing-- nor alludes to it, who is a regular in
this group.
However I think it is possible to divinate just to find out information,
without healing being an integral component of it. That was what I was
getting at, that the alternative specialist just seeking information through
divination, is simply acting as a "seer", in that function rather than as
some other specialist. Usually though, an indigenous seer, for example,
also does other shamanic tasks more closely aligned with healing:)
Interesting insight into your shamanic divination practices, Sloop! I use
the pendulum too, but with hypnotherapy clients to show them the power of
the Other Side to know more than they think they know.
Nita
<Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16364-3E2...@storefull-2194.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Nita Byrd
> Hi Nita!
>
> > Wow, never heard about this before. Fascinating. So the church
attempted
> > to install a Catholic holy spirit like Mary, in a newly-built church
over
> > pagan sacred temple grounds, and there was heavy resistance-- What kind
of
> > resistance--what took place?
>
> The local spirit of the mentioned location resisted in being exorcised.
> When you enter that particular church (it is in fact a chapel) you have
> the distinct feeling of being not welcome at all.
Quite interesting.
> > Oh, now I think I know where I've heard that term. The Masons.....never
> > thought that this would come up as related to shamanic practices in
Germany!
>
> The Masons did know many things. But nowadays these professionals have
> no knowledge of this at all. Once the people planning a structure were
> called "Baumeister", today they are called "Architekten" - a big
> difference. However I know at least one architect which still has much
> knowledge on this and in northern germany one village is being built
> after principles of geomancy.
>
> Note that I don't speak of the Freemasons, which are a completely
> different species, however with common origins.
Oops, I goofed. I meant Freemasons...aren't they the ones associated with
Geomancy?
> > association to the Masons at one time. Hmmm....it would seem that much
of
> > the European Masons' foundations came from a combination of Egyptian
> > building knowledge combined with Greek geometric principles.
>
> yes. the holy geometry was once a big part of the principles, and the
> knowledge of earthen energies.
It seems the Freemasons encouraged the safekeeping of some of the secrets
relating to sacred geometry, and so forth. The Stuarts of my ancestral
family, for example, had much to do with the Scot Society of Freemasons at
one time. It fascinates me that a healing stone was once in possession of
the royal Stuart family, and passed from one generation to another. What
happened to this stone, is the question...and I have no idea, but haven't
done any research, either.
> clip> no, the church is practicing its own kind of exorcism. I met one of
the
> last exorcist of the church some years ago. Nowadays the church realized
> that many non-christian exorcists are around and thus there are some new
> official exorcists around.
Oh? So exorcism as a practice coming from pagan and Catholic priests on a
parallel...similar to the way I think about folk art crafts as being
parallel to fine arts. It used to be said that crafts evolved from fine
arts, but now, it appears they have always run on side-by-side tracks.
> > Of course, not all these used trance. Many were "folk healers" right?
>
> yes, but shamans are always a kind of folk-healers, as I am.
>
> > with trance? Was it with hypnosis of a type before Mesmerism became
popular
> > do you suppose?
>
> well, difficult to answer. You have to distinct between mesmerism and
> normal hypnosis. the latter is lacking the vital-force which made the
> mesmerism succesful.
I have a very limited understanding of mesmerism, have not gotten into a lot
of the details. There is a new book out by a leading hypnotherapist and
teacher, Dr. John Hughs, and relates a history of hypnosis in America and I
believe he goes into the background with mesmerisim, but don't know, since I
don't have the book yet. I know that the art got it's start in Europe, and
that it appeared as something never known before, and had an advantage that
way. I'd like to discuss it sometime too, but I need to do some more
reading for myself before I say more.
> > So as Flora has alluded, one of our most well-read members, there lie
below
> > the surface of fairy stories shamanic truths?
>
> many, indeed.
>
> > No not in physical reality, no. But then, I'm sure I don't approach the
> > field the same way you or someone else might. As in all other world
> > approaches, views and perspectives differ. In fact, my view is that one
> > doesn't have to belief in the actual physical reincarnation process to
have
> > a successful PLR. Hard to explain this, but it doesn't mean it is any
less
> > valid an experience for me, than if I really were Akenaten.
>
> I understand what you are trying to tell me very well.
>
> > Well, I have a different impression. I've been taught by both my Andean
> > mentors that most westerners are already at the Third Level
> > when they become exposed to Inka shamanism.
>
> They are right. You forgot that only very view actually ARE exposed to
> andean shamanism. That is the point I tried to bring into reason. The
> westerners are as far as anyone around here in the world. The ones which
> can effort some thousands of dollars to get to south america and an
> initiation into lvl 3 or above are always exceptions to the rule.
No, one not need to go to Peru at all to receive a karpay from Juan Nunez
del Prado. He has taught those who are interested in learning about Andean
mysticism and shamanism not only in America, but also in Europe as well. He
is highly respected by the Q'ero of Peru, who agree with him that he act as
ambassodor for the Q'ero spiritual people of Peru, who carry the Inka
spiritual "flame".
The teachings are available to anyone who is interested, and just as
indigenous teachers have traditionally charged some kind of payment for
their mentorship, so Juan does as well, no matter where he teaches. To
teach internationally, one must purchase plane tickets, etc. His latest
endeavor has been to establish Hatun Karpays in other places of the land in
order to help people, through the Andean perspective, establish a close
spiritual relationship and appreciation for their own natural land spirits
and of the spirits of nature. After having been on a Hatun Karpay in Peru,
it's birthplace, I can clearly understand how this relationship can be
applied in principle to show the way how others in their own lands can use
the Andean perspectives, because it truly isn't necessary to go to Peru and
spend thousands of $$. It had taken me two years to save up the money
anyway, because there were no Hatun Karpays in my own land, and the ones in
Italy came later. I think it is a great thing what Juan is doing, taking
the principles of the Hatun Karpay using the power places found in peoples
lands of non-Andean cultures, to teach people the Andean principles while
showing them how they relate to their own land. Whoever reads Elizabeth
Jenkin's _Initiation_ about the Hatun Karpay, can easily grasp that to see
the universal truths.
> > ? specifically, which tradition? European?
>
> yes.
>
> > Hmmm. I actually see shamanic practitioners as being on different
levels of
> > ability, and some can heal things about themselves, while others have
not
> > yet reached the skill level to do so.
>
> yes, another valid approach.
>
> > He knows the hierarchy very well, he is one of the most respected
priests in
> > Peru. The hierarchy is arbitrary of course, but the interesting thing
is
> > that is has humility built into it's very time-consuming phases of
spiritual
> > advancement. It is far too easy to fall a victim to ego inflation,
thus,
> > the years of training and practice.
>
> That the andean system is not infallable I have experienced with an
> rather arrogant 4th level initiate some years ago. It was an american
> woman, I remember.
Arrrgh. I am rather empathetic here....I am very cautious these days about
who I open my mind to--there are some 4th level western paqos who, upon
initation as *candidates* of the 4th level, suddenly think they are in the
position to teach...who are definitely not ready to do so. I hope that my
observations of Andean shamanism aren't construed here for more than that.
I share what I know, but certain things, like the magical side, are limited,
because they cannot be shared, only experienced one on one, and they should
come directly from a high priest like Juan or Amerigo Yabar, both Metizos
and supported & approved of by the Qeros, themselves. There are others in
Peru, but only Juan and Amerigo have the same great masters in common (don
Andres Espinoza, and don Benito Qoriwaman) who passed down the complete
knowledge--the art of the Chumpi Paqo a part of this) and know all phases of
the main body of knowledge. (Besides, most people cannot get to peru, as
you mentioned. I doubt if I'll ever in this lifetime have the good fortune
of walking into those breath-taking mountains and Inka ruins again) In
addition, both have a very strong relationship with the Qeros. I ended up
sitting next to Joan Wilcox, a 4th level priest, at the recent shamanic
conference of indigenous shamans of Peru and the Amazon (I helped as a
volunteer, and I'd like to mention another well-known author also
volunteered, William Sullivan. who wrote _Secrets of the Incas_. Joan
Wilcox wrote an excellent book _The Ancient Knowledge: The Mystical World of
the Qeros of Peru. It is about the makings of a priest, at 15,000 ft, (a
very very harsh place to live, for the readers' info) with Juan acting as
liason, so that the author could have interviews of the Q'ero priests and
includes a good general background, rather than the usual hyperbolic stories
of the author's astonishing visions and what-not that publishers think will
sell these types of books. You most likely are familiar with said book.
She felt quite genuine in spirit to me, and I was thrilled at the
"accidental" seat arrangement, so that she ended up signing her book I
happened to bring with me:). Amerigo Yabar was unable to attend, and so I
have never heard him speak about Andean shamanism, except for what I've read
in a back issue of Shaman's Drum.
It is sad, but very few Andean Qero priests are women, most of them not
being attracted to the profession, none with the knowledge or interest to
teach outside. The ones I'm aware of, are healing partners with their
husbands for the local community. Most women of the Qero are more drawn to
what modern ways has to offer. It is so understandable when you examine
just how rough their lives are! So Juan and Amerigo are dedicated to
teaching western women, as well as the men, about the ways, so that it is
not in danger of dying out, but more than that, the Qeros say that it is
time for a potential increase in the world consciousness level, many already
in the Third Level, namely, to raise to the 4th Level. So Juan and Amerigo
have the Qeros' full approval to teach outside and into the world's
cultures, because they have decided it is the right time to tell the world
about the Andean teachings of the 4th Level, that bring peace and freedom
from religous wars with them.
> > Ah... the challenge is actually, there
> > .... super-human possibility, which many, no matter how much they wish,
simply
> > fall short at this time, but the promise is still there, and included in
the
> > prophecies.
>
> Yes, I know this all.
>
> > There are many secrets...
>
> Of course. Some of them are better kept secret.
>
> In the Light of the Secret,
>
> Apu Kuntur.
I agree, but not because I don't wish to share; but more, as it has always
been, it does take phases of learning and discovery and hands on experience,
which public sharing cannot convey.
Munay,
Nita
Azathool
> I like your descriptions of divination, Aza! Yep, I would think divination
> would perhaps fall into the category. Quite informative. It could begin a
> thread all it's own anyway. Divination isn't related to healing all that
thank you...
actually the word Geomancy translates to the things I described in my post, while
the practice Apu Kuntur talked about also contains other tools that could be viwed
as divinatory in the eyes of a leyman.
Find Lea-liines and underground water using only a branch from a certain tree and
stuff like that has become a rather common knowledge in my country. In the old
days it was the wise men and women, who were called upon to find a good spot to
build ones house on and they used their knowledge to find it. Today it is quite
different.
> much, and really stands out as being a good example of a shamanic practice
> which stands on its own. In Peru in some places they are known as seers,
> since their specialty is divination. There was a lot of divination using
> *entrails* in the Inka priest's shamanic practices once. I believe the
> Romans used animal entrails as well. It isn't common to what the Q'ero, the
Hmm... what you call "seers" are what other would call seidhr´s, or even psychic
mediums, who are into the art of picking up vibrations from objects they´re
holding.
Divination comes under a whole lot of different names and practices and the Gipsy
Queens laying of cards, Carteomancy, may be the one that is most familiar.
Carteomancy is not the same as the Tarot, other than the use of a deck of cards to
do a reading. But both Carteomanacy and the tarot falls under the same category,
in swedish termes described as superstition and omens, things involving destiny,
faith, fortune-telling, scrying etc. Under the same category we will also find
Sortilegy (lottery), throw Runes, rolling Dize, reading Domino bricks, or the
Plates of Fate, Numerolgy and also I-Ching
Other practices falling under the same category, but using the things found around
us in nature are for instance Agromancy, Auguriumancy, Pyromancy, Scrying with the
help of water and wind, Crystal ball scrying, Tasseografi, Astrology aswell as the
earlier mentioned Geomancy.
> order & manor of ritual and ceremony. I once hiked up the steep steps to
> the top of the village of Chinchero, outside of Cusco, to meet and have a
> divination by a well-known seer of the region. He was an old man and had
> fallen the week before, so was not able to give either my roommate or I a
> coca leaves reading, which was I admit, a little disappointing. But just to
> be in his presence was unique. The Foundation For the Study of Shamanism
> (Michael Harner's teachings) offers divination as one of their weekend
> trainings.
Interesting. Didn´t know that the Harner association was into these things. Over
here it used to be the parapshycologic associations, who dealt in these matter.
These have nowadays mostly transformed into Spiritual Associations, where we find
the psychic mediums and the healers being honored and respected members, but
rarely any of the ones doing divination. These spiritual associations also gives
courses in the spiritual realm and most of the courses are done within a graduated
system. You start out as newbie doing a ground course, learning the basiscs often
for free or at a very cheap cost. Then to get to the higher levels also the costs
increases. The highest level for someone is to become a licensed medium or a
healer.
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Sat, Jan 18, 2003, 2:16am From:
nita...@erols.com (Nita Byrd)
]Thanks, Sloop, I had been struggling
]to determine a facet of
]modern shamanism, such as
]divination, that may be further
]removed from healing, per se, since
]in this newsgroup the word
]"healing" seems to bring about a
]knee-jerk response every time, from
]at least one subscriber, without fail:).
With my view of healing as restoring/fixing something amiss to keeping
things in harmony or balance, I'm hard-pressed to see any shamanic
functions, traditional or otherwise, as unrelated to healing in some
way. Just my take on things....I guess I've a tendency to connect the
goal or desired outcome of the shamanic endeavor to the shamanic work,
rather than just consider the ritual or act on its own. I appreciate
the fact though, that there are differing views on this......
]HEALING is a significant aspect
]of shamanic practice in today's world,
]if not the core of western, shamanic ]practice. As a matter of fact, I
don't
]think that I or anyone who is a
]regular here would say that shamanism
]is _only about healing_ but
]almost everytime it is mentioned as
]being an important aspect of
]shamanic practice, out comes someone
]to remind me and others that
]shamanism isn't _only_ about healing. ]The trouble with that is that no
one I
]know here ever says that--
]that shamanism is only about
]healing-- nor alludes to it, who is a ]regular in this group.
I can't recall anyone here ever implying that the practice of shamanism
represented healing only. Everyone has differing views....Certainly, in
western culture, but to my mind, also in others, shamanism is about
looking to the spirit world for guidance or solutions. This infers a
purpose though and since none of this stuff is anything to fool with, I
can't imagine any responsible practitioner petitioning the spirits
without purpose. And, for me anyway, once I begin to closer examine the
purpose, alot of times, something loops back to what I relate to
healing.....Just my mileage.....
]However I think it is possible to
]divinate just to find out
]information, without healing being an ]integral component of it. That
was what
]I was getting at, that the
]alternative specialist just
]seeking information through divination,
]is simply acting as a "seer", in
]that function rather than as some
]other specialist. Usually though,
]an indigenous seer, for example,
]also does other shamanic tasks more ]closely aligned with healing:)
Some years back I was on vacation with a friend in your neck of the
woods. One evening we decided to go out for a late supper and ended up
lost on some of those very dark backroads in your state....After driving
around for about an hour with no clue of where we were and the gas tank
now on empty, I used the pendulum for direction. At every intersection
or crossroad I let it swing and went where it guided. We made it back
to the hotel in less than 20 minutes without a single wrong turn! (Why
didn't I get it out sooner???) lol So, yes, it is quite possible to use
them just to seek information. To me though, being lost is a state of
confusion which is a way of being out of synch....Using the pendulum in
this regard put things back in order, so to speak, so through that type
of association, I would relate the pendulum use back to healing as a
tool that helped restore harmony. Again, just my mileage......(heh
heh...no pun intended!)
]Interesting insight into your
]shamanic divination practices, Sloop!
]I use the pendulum too, but
]with hypnotherapy clients to show them ]the power of the Other Side to
know
]more than they think they know.
]Nita
Well....that _is_ the primary function of the pendulum! :-) The Other
Side to me in this instance though, is that part of ourselves which is
in touch with all knowledge and wisdom and consequently knows the answer
to any and all things....Some people tend to think of a pendulum's
response as being under something elses influence, like an answer from
some outside source. This was not what I was taught though. I was
taught to use it as an extension of my subconscious, as a way of
bringing hidden knowledge into the physical realm. The only thing I was
told to never attempt to use it for was personal gain.......
Sloop
SilverSong
<clip>
> So as Flora has alluded, one of our most well-read members, there lie
below
> the surface of fairy stories shamanic truths? An example might be the
Frog
> and the Prince fairy tale. The heroine with the pure heart kisses a frog
> who was placed under a spell, and he transforms into a handsome and
entirely
> desirable prince. Might the essence point to trance-formation, the
> possibility that spiritual beauty underlies everyone and everything? And
> that it is possible to change...right now? I'm sure there are others
> reading who have a better grasp than me.
The beauty of such tales is that you can look at it from very different
angles, and it can still make perfect sense.
In a way, the frog was the shaman who did a soul-retrieval, represented as
the golden ball of the princess. It can also be a initiatory tale of how a
power or totem animal is asked and paid for to get a piece of soul (or
youth, it's still a kid's toy) back.
Just a little note :)
Y
SilverSong
<<Actually, my very first lesson in divination was with regard to healing
and I have used it ever since for that (along with using it for other
things). It can be quite useful for diagnosing ills of the spiritual or
physical nature and be helpful in determining treatments for ailments.
I've used both the typical pendulum type of technique or crystals and
other stones. Its always a treat to stand in a health food store with
your little pendulum hung over a bottle of supplements to see which way
it swings to determine whether you need that particular herbal remedy or
not.....You get alot of interesting looks from other shoppers....but
hey.....with the price of supplements there's no point in buying
something you don't need! :-) And to my mind, that's just one aspect of
its use, for healing purposes....>>
How do you use the stones in the diviniation?
And I reckon the looks would be ... well.. odd to say the least. Perhaps you
can tell them that you're magicking for discount?
<<Seeking direction with regard to personal problems, anywhere where there
is disharmony or confusion, is another example of divination for healing
purposes since I equate restoring balance or something to harmony as a
form of healing also. I work alot with different stones too and they
can be useful not just as divination tools but as actual healing
remedies for various ailments since different stones embody different
energies. Of course, I was taught specifically in this manner of
divination by a healer, so maybe my mileage is varying a bit here with
regard to this as compared to what many others might do with the skill. >>
Diviniation then is treated as 'true seeing', right? Not as fortune telling.
My first teachers were focused on healing as well. One thing they taught was
how to balance the elements. You can use specific stones to harmonize with
the element and use them to see where there is a lack or surplus. Then
either the stones or a rattle (or your hands) to scoop up the element and
apply it on the spot.
Question: do the pendulum and the stones 'lead' or guide you, or is it done
in 'yes/no' questions and answers?
Y
SilverSong
> Thanks, Sloop, I had been struggling to determine a facet of modern
> shamanism, such as divination, that may be further removed from healing,
per
> se, since in this newsgroup the word "healing" seems to bring about a
> knee-jerk response every time, from at least one subscriber, without
fail:).
The words 'healing', 'about' and 'shamanism' do produce some of those
reactions, if found together in a sentence which implies that shamanism is
all about healing, yes.
> HEALING is a significant aspect of shamanic practice in today's world, if
> not the core of western, shamanic practice.
Sad thing is, that it's true.
We're obsessed with the band-aids, self-empowerment and personal growth.
Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I wonder
sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
> As a matter of fact, I don't think that I or anyone who is a regular here
> would say that shamanism is _only about healing_ but almost everytime it
is
> mentioned as being an important aspect of shamanic practice, out comes
> someone to remind me and others that shamanism isn't _only_ about healing.
> The trouble with that is that no one I know here ever says that--that
> shamanism is only about healing-- nor alludes to it, who is a regular in
> this group.
I know Nita, but you know as well as I do that shamanism is very prone to
stereotyping and off-the-mark generalizations. It's either a) about healing,
or b) about the Indians, or c) both.
So while healing is for most an important aspect of their shamanistic
practices, by the sheer amount of misinformation I'd think it would be
beneficial to include to add that it's not *all* about healing. Even that
not all shamans or shamanist actually do healing work as primary focus.
> However I think it is possible to divinate just to find out information,
> without healing being an integral component of it. That was what I was
> getting at, that the alternative specialist just seeking information
through
> divination, is simply acting as a "seer", in that function rather than as
> some other specialist. Usually though, an indigenous seer, for example,
> also does other shamanic tasks more closely aligned with healing:)
I'm a bit confused now. Divination, what does that include? Psychometry,
fortune-telling, aura-reading, Journeying for information, runes and tarot
card readings?
> Interesting insight into your shamanic divination practices, Sloop! I use
> the pendulum too, but with hypnotherapy clients to show them the power of
> the Other Side to know more than they think they know.
>
> Nita
Y
Nita Byrd
"SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3e29be18$0$22771$e4fe...@dreader8.news.xs4all.nl...
Always a pleasure to hear your take, Y:). I notice that I said above, the
tale of the Frog and the Prince--ha....I think with my sleepy brain the name
of the fairy tale is the Frog and the Princess. But it might have been
something a little different, like the Frog and the Milk Maid:)...not
really! LOL. It is a fairy tale that everyone is familiar with who ever
laid eyes on the classic tales, though. It is one of those archetypal
tales, that no matter what the exact title, everyone knows what you're
referring to. I know why I did that unconscious slip. I have an NLP book
with the title Frogs into Princes, an obvious spin-off on the original folk
tale. Bearing your observations above, I really wish to re-read the story
in it basic form, and see it with fresh eyes. I would like to do that,
because I've known since I was a child that the reading of a folk tale does
something to one's spirit--it nurtures it, puts more life into it and opens
the heart up to the wonder of life itself. It is quite fun to return to
thoughts of those magical tales...
Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a little
sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side of
oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a glance
at that story. Perhaps Tamara has something to add to our understanding of
the story.
The Princess and the Pea--only a real Princess would recognize a little,
hard dry pea being placed under her mattress. When a little girl, I
remember meditating over why a _real_ Princess had such powers. I don't
remember being able to answer this puzzle, but it certainly got my mind to
thinking on it. The more fairy tales I read, the more I was convinced that
Royalty had some kind of special powers. Perhaps one of the intentions is
to attract one to identify one's own hidden self as royalty...not in an
arrogant way, but as "unique" and with magical powers. Mainly for me, the
stories were about some element of happening that was magical, and it
delighted me to read about magic.
There's Rapunzel (ba...by!, let down your hair!!!) the ogre (the
over-protective dad?) and the Prince (the hero rescuer) in
Rumplestiltzkin--(pardon the sp. errors, I do not have a fairy tale book in
front of me:)
I think they inspired me later to thoroughly enjoy my first magic set. So
I found myself as the only kid around who had a magic set that was basic,
yet very well done & just right for a 10 yr. old. I had so very much fun
doing magic shows for all my friends and my family! LOL, I practiced
endlessly with my brother who was 5 and my parents to perfect the tricks.
Eventually, I presented little shows, and had a great deal of fun. Later, I
told all who were interested, how the tricks were done. I can still see in
my mind's vision, my favorite of the all--the 3 bells & ball trick. It was
very slight of hand--you'd place a loose ball the size of a marble under one
of the bells in plain sight of the viewers, turn your back, & let one of the
audience swirl the bells around so that they changed places rapidly, for
several rounds, and then you'd turn back when they were satisfied they'd
mixed them up enough, & tell them you knew which bell had the ball under it
and be right every time....wow, that was fun...this eventually led to lucid
dreaming, hypnosis and shamanic "magic".
Thanks,
Nita
SilverSong
> Always a pleasure to hear your take, Y:). I notice that I said above, the
> tale of the Frog and the Prince--ha....I think with my sleepy brain the
name
> of the fairy tale is the Frog and the Princess. But it might have been
> something a little different, like the Frog and the Milk Maid:)...not
> really! LOL.
Hmm, what *were* you thinking lass?
;)
> It is a fairy tale that everyone is familiar with who ever
> laid eyes on the classic tales, though. It is one of those archetypal
> tales, that no matter what the exact title, everyone knows what you're
> referring to. I know why I did that unconscious slip. I have an NLP book
> with the title Frogs into Princes, an obvious spin-off on the original
folk
> tale.
Going to get it serious again, because I find this exactly a prime example
of what is 'wrong' with our present day society.
I cannot and will not deny the validity that certain concepts do appeal and
reflect psychological processes. People can identify with a character in
such a tale, even all characters and events in a form of gestallt-therapy
setting, where everything you dream or relate to are aspects of yourself.
The frog being the ugly side of yourself that you have to kiss after it
gives you presents, and turns into a rightly Ken as reward when you do.
Coming to terms with your less desired side, transforming it in the process
of accepting. All that kind of stuff.
Yet this is only a so very small part of what is 'out there', what is
happening. I find it a terrible waste if tales, fairy tales or myths, are
only taken in a context of psychological interpretation. Not only a waste,
but an aid in the feeling being cut off from the world around you.
In other words, the psychological interpretation is really missing the
point. And our present day society has a tendency or either obsession to
mentalize and psychologize nearly everything.
I mean, taking it back to shamanism, you can see a power animal as a
visualised and so externalized aspect of yourself, while still treating it
as an outside entity or force. But you're only seeing it on *your* inside,
you only focus on how your mind interprets the given. Which means you don't
see it as an external being, independant and on it's own. In other words,
you claim it as yourself or your own, like we Ant People do with near
everything.
> Bearing your observations above, I really wish to re-read the story
> in it basic form, and see it with fresh eyes. I would like to do that,
> because I've known since I was a child that the reading of a folk tale
does
> something to one's spirit--it nurtures it, puts more life into it and
opens
> the heart up to the wonder of life itself. It is quite fun to return to
> thoughts of those magical tales...
Exactly. The present day versions are adapted to suit the needs of the
current society. Based on older tales, which to laymen like me, are hard to
come by (I found only some tidbits, nothing solid).
They are based on magic tales, but interpreted in 'common language' and
unfortunately, taken out of context and the only meaning they retain is that
of psychology. Unless you look a bit closer. Real magic, not NLP stuff.
> Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a little
> sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side of
> oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a glance
> at that story. Perhaps Tamara has something to add to our understanding
of
> the story.
Talking animals. Getting devoured but still alive in the critters stumach.
Cutting that stumach open, sewing it closed again and still the critter
survives the operation. All these elements are basically shamanic, at the
very least animistic.
There's a tale about a fox called Reindert, who constantly betrays every
animal in the forest, even his close friend badger. The king is a lion, who
is rather gullible due his pride. The context of the whole tale is taken to
be a satire on the state of Europe and it's King(s) around (guessing now,
don't have the book at hand) the 1800's.
Again, talking animals, deeply symbolic and possibly totemic. I mean, this
is exactly the kind of tale you get to hear in the Otherworlds, where this
sort of stuff is the 'common language' precisely.
It's such a terrible loss. We marvel at foreign cultures their native tales,
the more spiritual amongst us will see the tales as indeed being about
spirits. But when it comes to our own tales, it's only about aspects of the
human psyche (which deep down we believe so are the other tales) or it's
satire. It's like we cannot believe we have magic just as well.
> The Princess and the Pea--only a real Princess would recognize a little,
> hard dry pea being placed under her mattress. When a little girl, I
> remember meditating over why a _real_ Princess had such powers. I don't
> remember being able to answer this puzzle, but it certainly got my mind to
> thinking on it. The more fairy tales I read, the more I was convinced
that
> Royalty had some kind of special powers. Perhaps one of the intentions is
> to attract one to identify one's own hidden self as royalty...not in an
> arrogant way, but as "unique" and with magical powers. Mainly for me, the
> stories were about some element of happening that was magical, and it
> delighted me to read about magic.
Actually Nita, that's exactly why those tales are made and interpreted that
way. They were tales about 'special' people, and the ruling classes didn't
like 'special' people belonging to the lower classes. Only their own kin was
'special'. So the milk-maid became a would-be princess. It's a good way to
get the 'common folk' believing that royal blood was special blood, and the
inbreeding was justified. (Perhaps to retain the retardedness linked to that
so-called 'blue blood')
A woman's sensitivity is tested by sleeping on a score of mattrasses with
one pea underneath. If she is sensitive enough, she passes. The reward, in
this case, is royalty. Doesn't this remind you of both an initiation, but
also the training of a seer?
The meditation you did is great, but you believe the hype and assumed that
it was about royalty. Only 'real' royalty has such powers, and since the
people who are royal now are really royal, they too must have these powers.
Imagine living in the 17th century, hearing those tales, about the magic
powers of royalty. Imagine then that you 'see' things, you have the second
sight. You're not royalty, you're a peasant girl, and thus a witch. Only
'royalty' is allowed to rightly have those special powers. So you either
shut up about it, or end up labeled a witch, with all the consequences.
Those things are not magic, those things are willful manipulations.
> There's Rapunzel (ba...by!, let down your hair!!!) the ogre (the
> over-protective dad?) and the Prince (the hero rescuer) in
> Rumplestiltzkin--(pardon the sp. errors, I do not have a fairy tale book
in
> front of me:)
Rumplestiltskin, a good tale about the power of Naming and dealing with
Middleworld spirits, Fairy (or Fey) folk and Green World powers. Don't
really know about Rapunzel, but it sounds like the descend to an
Otherworldly place to rescue a fertility goddess.
I must be boring everybody with all this talk about why I think shamanism is
so important to be properly explained and kept with integrity. But well, you
don't *have* to read it.
You see Nita, you don't believe in Magic, at least you don't really believe
you *are doing* Magic. You're not 'royalty' after all, so it can't be that
'special power' only royalty has. Thing is though, I reckon you're unaware
that most of the times, you actually *are* performing the real deal. You
just don't realize it.
Unfortunately, some of the things you say, some of the theories and
explanations are exactly those given by people who *don't* do the real deal.
For them it's really only make-belief, slight of hand tricks and useful
placebo imagination. It's kept at such a very low level of impact, mostly at
the easiest reachable edges of psychology, with a lot of psycho-babble to
make it look realistic (to the gullible).
For me, I came to realize about our own magic tales through shamanism, when
I realized that the healing was the all-important, all-consuming be-all and
end-all of shamanism. I simply don't see any other method of thought that in
the West deals with the non-physical things like that. A system that doesn't
see dreams and characters in legend, dream, myth and fairy-tales as
psycho-processes *only*. Our Western Society did it's best to erradicate
this extra reality, or para-reality. And now we got a great many of
parapsychologist running around, who say they're involved with the 'magic'
of life, but who are doing the exact same thing.
We are actively pursuing and erradicating all our connections to the mundane
magic of Other Worlds and their inhabitants. To me, every shamanist that
claims that power animals are neat symbols for their state of mind or of
parts of personality, seems to me to be killing that same spirit. At the
very mildest, it's ignoring the reality that there are other life forms
besides your own physical self, or other physical beings.
I just strongly feel that we cannot afford to ignore that any longer. If we
do, we run a good chance us all ending up as non-physical,
blown-ourselves-up-into-tiny-little-bits spirits.
Y
SilverSong
> For me, I came to realize about our own magic tales through shamanism,
when
> I realized that the healing was the all-important, all-consuming be-all
and
> end-all of shamanism.
Argh, slipping too.
"...When I realized it *wasn't* the all-important ... "
Proofreading is a good thing, I should do it more often.
Joseph B. Wilson
<Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
<clip of a lotta good stuff available in the google archives>
>For me, I came to realize about our own magic tales through shamanism, when
>I realized that the healing was the all-important, all-consuming be-all and
>end-all of shamanism. I simply don't see any other method of thought that in
>the West deals with the non-physical things like that. A system that doesn't
>see dreams and characters in legend, dream, myth and fairy-tales as
>psycho-processes *only*. Our Western Society did it's best to erradicate
>this extra reality, or para-reality. And now we got a great many of
>parapsychologist running around, who say they're involved with the 'magic'
>of life, but who are doing the exact same thing.
>We are actively pursuing and erradicating all our connections to the mundane
>magic of Other Worlds and their inhabitants. To me, every shamanist that
>claims that power animals are neat symbols for their state of mind or of
>parts of personality, seems to me to be killing that same spirit. At the
>very mildest, it's ignoring the reality that there are other life forms
>besides your own physical self, or other physical beings.
>
>I just strongly feel that we cannot afford to ignore that any longer. If we
>do, we run a good chance us all ending up as non-physical,
>blown-ourselves-up-into-tiny-little-bits spirits.
Very well said, Yerune. All of it. Hell with you around I don't need
to post anymore! <grin>
Joseph
Joseph B. Wilson
subject line, so it turned up ! instead of this!
Joe
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:02:38 +0100, "SilverSong"
<Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
<clip of a lotta good stuff available in the google archives>
>For me, I came to realize about our own magic tales through shamanism, when
>I realized that the healing was the all-important, all-consuming be-all and
>end-all of shamanism. I simply don't see any other method of thought that in
>the West deals with the non-physical things like that. A system that doesn't
>see dreams and characters in legend, dream, myth and fairy-tales as
>psycho-processes *only*. Our Western Society did it's best to erradicate
>this extra reality, or para-reality. And now we got a great many of
>parapsychologist running around, who say they're involved with the 'magic'
>of life, but who are doing the exact same thing.
>We are actively pursuing and erradicating all our connections to the mundane
>magic of Other Worlds and their inhabitants. To me, every shamanist that
>claims that power animals are neat symbols for their state of mind or of
>parts of personality, seems to me to be killing that same spirit. At the
>very mildest, it's ignoring the reality that there are other life forms
>besides your own physical self, or other physical beings.
>
>I just strongly feel that we cannot afford to ignore that any longer. If we
>do, we run a good chance us all ending up as non-physical,
>blown-ourselves-up-into-tiny-little-bits spirits.
Very well said, Yerune. All of it. Hell with you around I don't need
tamara
>Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a little
>sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side of
>oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a glance
>at that story. Perhaps Tamara has something to add to our understanding of
>the story.
>
sure, Nita, I would love to discuss what Riding hood means to me..
I have a busy day right now, I'm fixing to go see Two Towers! Finally!
and so I will post my thoughts tonight...
thanks for remembering me!
Tamara *who'll prolly come back from the movie wishing I was an elf or
something*
;p
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Sat, Jan 18, 2003, 9:58pm (EST+6)
From: Silverson...@xs4all.nl (SilverSong)
]]Actually, my very first lesson
]]in divination was with regard to
]]healing and I have used it ever since
]]for that (along with using it for
]]other things). It can be quite useful
]]for diagnosing ills of the spiritual
]]or physical nature and be helpful
]]in determining treatments for
]]ailments. I've used both the
]]typical pendulum type of technique
]]or crystals and other stones. Its always
]]a treat to stand in a health food store
]]with your little pendulum hung over
]]a bottle of supplements to see which
]]way it swings to determine whether
]]you need that particular herbal remedy
]]or not.....You get alot of interesting
]]looks from other shoppers....
]]but hey.....with the price of
]]supplements there's no point in
]]buying something you don't need! :-)
]]And to my mind, that's just one aspect
]]of its use, for healing purposes....
]How do you use the stones in
]the diviniation?
There are different ways of using the stones for divination. It really
depends on what type of guidance you are seeking, i.e., guidance or
direction with regard to important life decisions or guidance/insight
into healing issues. You can also use them as guides to self-awareness,
to examine strengths and weaknesses and from there obtain insight into
your own energies and where and how best to engage them for personal
well-being or achievement.
Common ways of doing this is with grids layed out in either the form of
the 12 astrological signs and their respected 'houses' or on a compass
type of directional grid where the various directions (north, northwest,
south, southeast, etc....) represent different aspects. You can either
drop your handful of chosen stones onto the grid or place them one by
one on sections that 'speak' to you. I only advise the latter if one is
not familiar with the stones and their properties to prevent what I
refer to as 'stacking the stones'. If you know what their energies are
and know what the different areas of a grid represent, it is better to
drop them randomly or place them with eyes closed. Otherwise, you can
influence the outcome of your reading by putting them in ego-influenced
favorable places.........not advisable!
Personally, for my own private work, I like to set a few of my favorite
stones about or hold one in my hand and draw its energy to me. They
are great for grounding and replenishing and since I have more need for
that right now, that is how I work with them.....I very much enjoy just
allowing myself to be open to them. I find they can be incredible
conduits of information.....if you let them! They can all teach
specific lessons and some, like the quartz crystals can also be
channelers of greater cosmic-type wisdom.
I have one quartz crystal that was actually chosen for me. When I went
looking for such a stone, I told the man selling them that I was looking
for a stone with lots of energy......He picked out this lovely little
quartz crystal, a teacher stone and said it was the one for me......I
liked it when I held it so I bought it....Heh heh......when working with
it, its been known to take my mind away to pondering electricity, speed
of light, those types of things.....Interesting little crystal! One
time when I fell asleep with it resting on me it gave me a physical
shock in one of my dreams that jolted me awake. Talk about a literal
interpretation of energy!
]And I reckon the looks would be ...
]well.. odd to say the least. Perhaps
]you can tell them that you're magicking ]for discount?
Looking at them, smiling and saying, "just saving money,' always gets a
bewildered look! lol
]]<<Seeking direction with regard
]]to personal problems, anywhere
]]where there is disharmony or confusion,
]]is another example of divination
]]for healing purposes since I
]]equate restoring balance or something
]]to harmony as a form of healing also.
]]I work alot with different stones too
]]and they can be useful not just
]]as divination tools but as actual
]]healing remedies for various
]]ailments since different stones
]]embody different energies. Of course,
]]I was taught specifically in this manner
]]of divination by a healer, so maybe
]]my mileage is varying a bit here
]]with regard to this as compared to
]]what many others might do with the
]]skill.
]Diviniation then is treated as 'true
]seeing', right? Not as fortune
]telling.
No, no fortune telling.....not with me anyway! This isn't about looking
into the future for me and divining what is going to happen next week or
next year.....You can certainly use crystals for that, the old crystal
ball, scrying bit, you know, but that is not what I use the stones for.
Heh....to my mind, that is what the black television screen of a tv not
in use is for. :-) As a tool its spirit is accustomed to being used for
'viewing' so applying it in such a way is just an extension of its
practical purpose....besides, alot of times, there's nothing good on
anyway! May as well put it to _some_ use! ;-)
I use the stones to evidence the qualities and energies relevant to
what's going on for an individual at the moment.....much the way tarot
is used. (Well...the way I used tarot anyway!) I like to draw out the
spirit of the stones and let them speak to one's life. They all have
something to say. To my mind its more productive this way.....I tend to
let the future be whatever it will be but like to use the stones to find
the most positive or productive way to deal with it. Letting them guide
or suggest where best to channel one's own energy seems far more useful
to me. They are also good to use along chakra points to facilitate
healing and energy flow through the body.
]My first teachers were focused on
]healing as well. One thing they
]taught was how to balance the
]elements. You can use specific stones
]to harmonize with the element and
]use them to see where there is a lack
]or surplus. Then either the stones or
]a rattle (or your hands) to scoop up
]the element and apply it on the
]spot.
I think I know what you're referring to here but maybe you could
elaborate on element here, just for clarification....Elements of nature,
elements of a particular stone, spiritual elements associated with a
particular stone......? Spiritual elements within yourself?
Another way I like to use the stones, (only certain ones though, I don't
consider them all appropriate for this), is to send or let them draw out
any negative energy. As earth elements, they are better able to handle
this and can channel that energy back or to a more appropriate place.
Earthy toned stones are very good for this while dark or black stones
protect against negative energy. Something like black tourmaline is
used for banishing ill-will or breaking spells. On a lighter note
(literally), rose quartz tends to be able to soak up emotional pain
caused by negativity. It tends to be a rather sensitive stone, known
for traits of compassion and empathy. Letting the stone take these
things on can be a strong release and spiritually uplifting.
Still another use for stones or crystals, is as protecting spirits
during meditation, journeying or magic work. Stones make excellent
guardians....Place them around a circle representing the four
directions......Chose ones with qualities representative of your own
spirit or ones with qualities you feel you need for any work you are
doing.....As earth elements, they love being useful. Just remember to
cleanse them before you start and when you are finished, unless you have
dedicated them to a specific use and they are to remain in that mode.
Sitting those in sunlight from time to time is still needed
though......as well as for any other stones.
]Question: do the pendulum and
]the stones 'lead' or guide you, or is it
]done in 'yes/no' questions and
]answers?
]Y
I tend to use the pendulum in a yes/no/neutral type of way. Stones can
be used this way too, but I don't tend to use them like this. As I said
above, I like to call on the individual qualities or spirits of the
stones and take lessons from those and apply them to my own life or the
seeker's. Using them for answering specific questions requires
considerable discipline and focus on one particular thing....If you mix
up your thoughts, your answer gets mixed up! So you really have to be
careful. In a general sense its all a form of guiding, I just prefer to
embrace the qualities of the stones rather than apply them in a pendulum
sort of way.
Sloop
tamara
>>From: "Nita Byrd"
>
>>Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a little
>>sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side of
>>oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a glance
>>at that story. Perhaps Tamara has something to add to our understanding of
>>the story.
I've sort of opted to not go into alot of detail on usenet, at this time
concerning the effects of Red Riding Hood
and how the old tale has woven into my life...for one thing, I honestly can't
give any "defined" answers...other than I feel a strong pull to this story, and
I feel kindred to this story
( But it's NOT because I think I am an innocent little girl that is devoured by
a wolf....NOT AT ALL, the story goes much deeper, and more on a soul level, but
I can't explain it, cause I don't understand it myself )
and secondly, because my "pull" toward the story really does not have a
shamanitic moral to it...
but, I will share the basics, and the gist of what the old tale "means to me"
I had a dream that was a starting point, a guiding point to some events that
later would change my life for the positive, not only physically,but mentally
and spiritually as well.
It's like the dream was a starting point toward a long journey that led me to
self preservation, and eventually restoration...
As I said, the starting point was a dream with many vague questions left to be
answered after I had the dream, and yet my gutt instinct somehow knew that this
dream was a link to pieces of my "own" soul. I felt strongly that the dream
had reached into unknown depths of my spiritual past to somehow help me in the
situation I found myself in at the time of the dream....
and the feeling was so strong, that I felt almost "compelled" to search and
find out more answers about that dream...
I went by my gutt instinct alone, along with other *little*
mini-visions/flashes that I had over a course of about 6-7 months....
one of the things my "gutt instinct" kept embedding into my brain was this old
folktale, "Red RidingHood"
I did not know why, nor for what reason, but it was a starting point to do
research, that in turn led me closer to answers...
and so, Red Ridinghood was a "link" ( of many)
and there are still mysteries left undiscovered for me, not only within this
tale, but also within some old swedish artwork that my Swedish grandfather use
to have hanging on his walls when I was a child.
I have since then, got copys of that artwork...
which are three pictures/paintings....
all of them are nightime paintings (sort of dark and grey), in the night sky,
with low clouds and full moon looming in those clouds...
one painting with a windmill and water.....(and what appears to be a body in
the water, but that is left to interpretation)
and the other painting is of an old water mill ....
and the last painting, I don't recall being on the wall when I was a little
child, but my mother insist that it hung up on the wall along with the other
two pictures,..... and it is a picture of a cabin...( but I don't recall this
one from my childhood)
If I could honestly explain the mysteries in my mind pertaining to these old
artworks of my grandfathers, or the strong gutt instinct prompt inside of me
that led me to persue orginal Red RidingHood stories then I would be able to
explain mysteries about myself that have yet to be revealed to me...
These "links" (the paintings and the old folktale) have led me to someone that
has had a direct impact on my life, but the "mystery" behind them, is still yet
to be uncovered in full detail, I think only in some sort of past life
regression session, would the full explaination be revealed...
it's like vague puzzle peices......
young girl.....path....windmill to the left....will get in trouble with
people/person behind her if caught......forest to the
right.........man....sudden deep feelings of soul level love....water behind
him.....kindred to wolf....paw-paw's paintings, watermill & windmill.....red
ridinghood....folklore....
: /
I hope that made some sort of sence *soft smile* but I am sure it does make
sence to you Nita, sence you work with people that have past lives that haunt
them as well as guide them...
I guess you could say on a superficial internet role-play level I can identify
with this charactor I made up, "magikRidingHood" because she is a girl
searching through the vast forest of cyberspace for answers, and it's like
magick because she can read the voices from the old countries while viewing
this magick screen and searching....
but that's just a superficial internet level....*soft smile*
In reality, the RidingHood folktales seems to hold ReaL _answers_ to mysteries
for me on a soul level , but I have yet to uncover those mysteries all the
way...but I have uncovered enough of them to know, that I am on the path
home....if that makes sence.
Tamara *who's feeling rather elfie tonight with her long, straight blonde
hair*
; )
Apu Kuntur
> Geomancy?
The freemasons here are a bunch of dusty old men, following their
secret-society codex and such. They are as interested in geomantic
questions as anyone else. I am referring to some traditions which are
passed down in familiar lines and some more scientific channels. Most of
the dowsers I know are either heavily influenced by the church, or not.
They are organized in official clubs.
> It seems the Freemasons encouraged the safekeeping of some of the secrets
> relating to sacred geometry, and so forth.
Maybe. But they had lost the meanings of it, somewhere on the way into
modern times.
> Oh? So exorcism as a practice coming from pagan and Catholic priests on a
> parallel...similar to the way I think about folk art crafts as being
> parallel to fine arts. It used to be said that crafts evolved from fine
> arts, but now, it appears they have always run on side-by-side tracks.
The church never condemned magic, it condemned magic performed by
non-christians. Something which should be kept in mind ...
> I have a very limited understanding of mesmerism, have not gotten into a lot
> of the details. There is a new book out by a leading hypnotherapist and
> teacher, Dr. John Hughs, and relates a history of hypnosis in America and I
> believe he goes into the background with mesmerisim, but don't know, since I
> don't have the book yet. I know that the art got it's start in Europe, and
> that it appeared as something never known before, and had an advantage that
> way. I'd like to discuss it sometime too, but I need to do some more
> reading for myself before I say more.
You should read May Freedom Longs "Huna Prayes and Self-Suggestion"
which is dealing with this matters in detail. You will be surprised,
belief me :-)
Ragarding the fairy-tail subthread: I was not actually referring to the
fairy-tales but to living traditions in the alps. Some of them with a
astonishing continuance of at least some thousand years. It is only
marginally known in german ethnology. So I am sure it is quite unknown
in english cultural anthropology. One example is the belief that certain
stones and petroglyphes have magic powers. In particular this believings
are quite common here in the alps.
> It is sad, but very few Andean Qero priests are women, most of them not
> being attracted to the profession, none with the knowledge or interest to
> teach outside.
The same here in germany. Most women interested in these matters stop at
a certain level and do not progress further. When I am looking at the
little number of shamanic practitioners actually teaching shamanics and
performing healing sessions for others there are only some women around.
She Devil With A Rubber Chicken
Apu Kuntur <apu.k...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>The same here in germany. Most women interested in these matters stop at
>a certain level and do not progress further. When I am looking at the
>little number of shamanic practitioners actually teaching shamanics and
>performing healing sessions for others there are only some women around.
Hi,
You probably have already seen I am interested in the way you guys
practice it over there. Hopefully I will be able to ask YOU about it
and not get my head ripped off. ;-7 ;-7 Anyway, I am a practitioner
of Asatru, and lived in Kaiserslautern for 5 years because I was
stationed in Ramstein AB. I thought at that time I was practicing
Wicca, and I held rites to the Lord and the Lady. I realize I was
all the time pretty close to the Vanir, and now Freyja is my patroness.
I am wondering when you do shamanism there do you call it seidhr or
just shamanism? You seem to also have an eclectic bent. Do you do
the things with the high seat and the staff, and the "going under
the cloak" stuff? If not, what do you do? And if you'd rather not
say, I will understand. I only ask these things because I am trying
to learn. There is an individual who recently (and perhaps wilfully)
chose to misunderstand what I was saying when I asked him these
things. If I truly felt that the "only" way to do it was my way,
then I'd have already put myself out of buisness, because when I
was in Germany I was Wiccan, not Asatru. I didn't even know then
what Asatru was, yet all the same what I was doing seemed to be
good enough for Freyja. ;-7 Ah well, enough about that.
Also where are you in Germany? If you are in the Alps you are so
lucky, that place is beautiful. Those are truly sacred mountains.
Di-a-rama
3e2a8844$0$94302$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl, "SilverSong"
<Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> A woman's sensitivity is tested by sleeping on a score of mattrasses with
> one pea underneath. If she is sensitive enough, she passes. The reward, in
> this case, is royalty. Doesn't this remind you of both an initiation, but
> also the training of a seer?
I thought that story was an allegory to test if her virginity was intact...?
Cheers,
Dianne
tamara
>
>Exactly. The present day versions are adapted to suit the needs of the
>current society. Based on older tales, which to laymen like me, are hard to
>come by (I found only some tidbits, nothing solid).
>They are based on magic tales, but interpreted in 'common language' and
>unfortunately, taken out of context and the only meaning they retain is that
>of psychology. Unless you look a bit closer. Real magic, not NLP
here is a link I came accross when I was searching for Red Ridinghood.
This has a link on the page ( which I am also posting) that has images of
actual text and pictures from some of the old Red Ridinghood books...(English)
Some of these date back to the 18th century, and so I found this web site to be
very "entertaining" if nothing else...
http://www-dept.usm.edu/~engdept/lrrh/lrrhhome.htm
http://www-dept.usm.edu/~engdept/lrrh/inventt.htm
btw....very insightful and thought provoking post you made concering your
thoughts on these old fairy tales...
Tamara
Apu Kuntur
> You probably have already seen I am interested in the way you guys
> practice it over there. Hopefully I will be able to ask YOU about it
> and not get my head ripped off. ;-7 ;-7
Surely not. You are alive. Vultures want carrion some days old ... ;-)
> of Asatru, and lived in Kaiserslautern for 5 years because I was
> stationed in Ramstein AB.
I know this place. I have some friends not far away from there.
> I am wondering when you do shamanism there do you call it seidhr or
> just shamanism?
just shamanism. sometimes seidh enters my practice, but I usually do not
mention it when it happens. Most people call me "shaman" or "apu" -
because they don't have any other label to put on me and my work.
> the things with the high seat and the staff, and the "going under
> the cloak" stuff? If not, what do you do?
No. I normally use my drum, shamanic headdress and soon a shamanic cloak
(which is being prepared for some months now). I learned to practice
without any utilities, only with bare hands and no drums. But I am
listening to the spirits advice regarding my utensils. And - honestly -
a little show is not too bad, sometimes ;-)
> then I'd have already put myself out of buisness, because when I
> was in Germany I was Wiccan, not Asatru. I didn't even know then
> what Asatru was, yet all the same what I was doing seemed to be
> good enough for Freyja. ;-7 Ah well, enough about that.
Well, I am neither Wicca nor Asatru. On occasion I invoked Freya once.
Loki is one of my favorites. However I have a deep relationship to
Jormungand. The dragon is our clan-totem (so to say) I inherited from my
fathers ancestors.
> Also where are you in Germany? If you are in the Alps you are so
> lucky, that place is beautiful. Those are truly sacred mountains.
I live in Augsburg. My roots are in the Karawanken and the Alps. Most of
my friends live in Austria, Vorarlberg.
Joseph B. Wilson
you mean to see if she was sensitive enough to feel a tiny prick?
Di-a-rama
ROFL--you took the wind out of me! Now I can't think of a damn thing to
say...
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
<nita...@erols.com> wrote:
> Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a little
> sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side of
> oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a glance
> at that story.
This reminds me of the following movie:
"Don't Look Now"
Starring Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie
Directed by Nicholas Roeg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000069I0A/qid=1043109445/sr=8
-5/ref=sr_8_5/102-7517892-7616141?v=glance&s=dvd
Editorial Review (Amazon.com)
Nicolas Roeg's Don't Look Now once seemed radically new with its
kaleidoscopic imagery, dreamlike editing, and willingness to let mystery be
mysterious on several levels of reality/illusion--plus art-house darling
Julie Christie in a long, nude love scene! Nowadays, this 1974 adaptation of
a Daphne du Maurier ghost story looks almost classical. Following the
drowning of their child in England, Laura (Christie) and John Baxter (Donald
Sutherland) have come to dank, eternally dying Venice, where he is
supervising the restoration of a moldering church and she is either slipping
into or climbing out of madness with the help of a pair of creepy spinster
sisters, one of whom can "see" even though blind. John may share this
psychic power, though he resists accepting it as the canals fill with murder
victims, surface realities turn shimmery as water, and a ***RED-COATED
FIGURE*** (my emphasis)--the daughter's ghost?--keeps flickering in the
corner of our vision. Though surreal and perplexing, the film does
eventually add up, and the ending remains a real throat-grabber. --Richard
T. Jameson
SilverSong
"Joseph B. Wilson" <Curmu...@shamanist.us> wrote in message
news:b2cl2vst2ov7fojre...@4ax.com...
> Oops, sorry, i accidentally hit something wrong and deleted the
> subject line, so it turned up ! instead of this!
> Joe
sure sure ;)
> Very well said, Yerune. All of it. Hell with you around I don't need
> to post anymore! <grin>
>
> Joseph
>
"Hell with me around"? Heheh, the implications of it ....
j/k
And thanks
SilverSong
<Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5705-3E2...@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net...
<clipped>
Thanks Sloop, that was great stuff.
> I think I know what you're referring to here but maybe you could
> elaborate on element here, just for clarification....Elements of nature,
> elements of a particular stone, spiritual elements associated with a
> particular stone......? Spiritual elements within yourself?
Basically it's the four basic elements; fire, earth, water and air. If there
needs to be spirit in there, or ether, I prefer something symbolic of Heart.
Basically the four elements are invoked by empowering containers with there
primal energy. Some actual element stuff works great for that.
All forms for this really. A small altar with easy acces to the four
objects, or a larger one, in which you can 'step' into a colum or sphere of
it's associated energy. Way I learned it was with a small altar, sensing the
feel of the element with your hands, then passing the hands over the clients
body, see where it's lacking or too much. And then use a rattle or your
hands as a sort of scoop to get some fresh energy from the element.
Works even stronger if you really go all the way, and use sand or moist clay
for earth, things like that. Biggest thing of it is that it's got to be as
physical as possible. The moment you or the client starts seeing pretty
pictures, you've gone too far and need to get grounded again.
> I tend to use the pendulum in a yes/no/neutral type of way. Stones can
> be used this way too, but I don't tend to use them like this. As I said
> above, I like to call on the individual qualities or spirits of the
> stones and take lessons from those and apply them to my own life or the
> seeker's. Using them for answering specific questions requires
> considerable discipline and focus on one particular thing....If you mix
> up your thoughts, your answer gets mixed up! So you really have to be
> careful. In a general sense its all a form of guiding, I just prefer to
> embrace the qualities of the stones rather than apply them in a pendulum
> sort of way.
>
> Sloop
Heh, so you like the Stone Folk or Pebble People :)
If you're on good standings, could you maybe persuade them to go and have a
chat with me as well? I'm not doing too well with them myself.
Y
Brett
saw the following book;
The Trials and Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood. By Zipe.
Sorry if it's already been mentioned.
Nick Argall
<Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1045-3E2...@storefull-2192.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I can't recall anyone here ever implying that the practice of shamanism
> represented healing only.
There was recently a newbie who responded to some particularly absurd
nonsense with something about "getting back to the real purpose of
shamanism: healing".
The cat was well and truly among the pidgeons when that happened.
Nick
Nick Argall
>
> "Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:b0aurl$1q5$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > Thanks, Sloop, I had been struggling to determine a facet of modern
> > shamanism, such as divination, that may be further removed from healing,
> per
> > se, since in this newsgroup the word "healing" seems to bring about a
> > knee-jerk response every time, from at least one subscriber, without
> fail:).
>
> The words 'healing', 'about' and 'shamanism' do produce some of those
> reactions, if found together in a sentence which implies that shamanism is
> all about healing, yes.
>
>
> > HEALING is a significant aspect of shamanic practice in today's world,
if
> > not the core of western, shamanic practice.
>
> Sad thing is, that it's true.
What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you prefer
the emphasis be placed?
> We're obsessed with the band-aids, self-empowerment and personal growth.
'Band-aids'?
> Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I
wonder
> sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
I think people are being honest and saying "I want to be happy." Seems to
me to be better to aim directly at the target than fool yourself into
thinking that acquiring some other thing will result in happiness as a
side-effect.
Nick
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Wed, Jan 22, 2003, 11:52am (EST+5)
From: nicka...@yahoo.com (Nick Argall)
]]I can't recall anyone here ever
]]implying that the practice of
]]shamanism represented healing
]]only.
]There was recently a newbie
]who responded to some particularly ]absurd nonsense with something
]about "getting back to the real purpose
]of shamanism: healing".
]The cat was well and truly among
]the pidgeons when that happened.
]Nick
Actually, the remark you're referencing is from part of a discussion
with Nita where I was referring to the regulars here on a.r.s., not any
newbies.....:-) But yes, the occasional newbie does indeed say those
types of things.....
Sloop
SagerXX
practice following of lifetime of dilletanttism with regard to this
path), there are three purposes to shamanic practice:
1. Healing -- first off, healing oneself, subsequent to which, IMO,
it becomes possible to bring healing through on behalf of others.
2. Teaching -- by virtue of living in the "place between the two
worlds," shamanic practitioners can help others understand the nature
of the two worlds, and their place[s] within them.
3. Learning -- within shamanic practice is, IMO, an implicit
understanding that the road of learning never ends for the
practitioner, so the third purpose is to continue expanding one's
awareness.
This of course, is only my experience. YMMV.
Bang,
SagerXX
"Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<8CvX9.16750$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Lucida
wrote:
>
>"SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>news:3e29c29b$0$22764$e4fe...@dreader8.news.xs4all.nl...
>>
>> "Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:b0aurl$1q5$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> > Thanks, Sloop, I had been struggling to determine a facet of modern
>> > shamanism, such as divination, that may be further removed from healing,
>> per
>> > se, since in this newsgroup the word "healing" seems to bring about a
>> > knee-jerk response every time, from at least one subscriber, without
>> fail:).
>>
>> The words 'healing', 'about' and 'shamanism' do produce some of those
>> reactions, if found together in a sentence which implies that shamanism is
>> all about healing, yes.
>>
>>
>> > HEALING is a significant aspect of shamanic practice in today's world,
>if
>> > not the core of western, shamanic practice.
>>
>> Sad thing is, that it's true.
>
>What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you prefer
>the emphasis be placed?
>
I wonder why there needs to *be* an emphasis at all. But as to
healing, I think that it is not the same definition for everyone,
especially in regards to what is necessary for healing. Some here will
say that harm is the other, necessary side to healing, while I have
also seen some take the position that healing is possible without
harm. I know where my beliefs fall on this, but I would not expect
that they be universally held.
I do not see myself as a shaman, but I can apply what I am about to
say to shamanism, even as a non-shaman, as it is more about the nature
of seeing things... Please bear with me.
When an aspect, any aspect of a complex "thing" (I think we can agree
that shamanism is a complex "thing.") is given emphasis over other
aspects, there is a tendency for that "thing" to be equated with that
emphasized aspect. The other aspects then fade from recognition and
the very "thing" itself changes over time. And that is very sad,
because the other aspects are part of what gives that "thing" much of
its value, its usefulness.
>> We're obsessed with the band-aids, self-empowerment and personal growth.
>
>'Band-aids'?
>
I cannot speak for Yerune here, but I interpret this to mean quick
fixes, patching over the superficial without correcting the underlying
cause...
>> Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I
>wonder
>> sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
>
>I think people are being honest and saying "I want to be happy." Seems to
>me to be better to aim directly at the target than fool yourself into
>thinking that acquiring some other thing will result in happiness as a
>side-effect.
>
>
Ahhh... But do we truly know what will make us happy? Often, what we
think will make us happy disappoints when it is finally attained. Or,
we are then crushed when something happens in our life that takes that
happiness away.
I do not feel that we have a right (or responsibility) to be happy all
the time. There are no guarantees that life will be easy or even fair.
Just because something makes us feel good does not mean it is good for
us. Children allowed the comfort of sucking their thumbs for years
usually have dental problems.
All things have their costs. Many things do not display the price tag
prominently, or have hidden fees attached.
I do not know if this is relevant to Yerune's point, but I feel it is
important to consider.
It is very easy to only look at the things we like best about any
given "thing." The parts of it that can help us or make us feel
better. But those parts are not the entire "thing." We have to be
willing and able to accept *all* of it. Otherwise, it is not the same
"thing" at all.
Consider what you probably know of archery as a Zen art. Would you say
that picking a target and aiming for it is likely to produce the most
satisfactory results? Hmmmm.... So, would aiming at happiness as a
target be any more successful? Just a thought.
Blessings,
Lucida
>
>Nick
>
>
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2003, 8:23pm (EST+6)
From: Silverson...@xs4all.nl (SilverSong)
]Basically it's the four basic elements;
Hmmm....yes, the basic elements of nature.......(at least that's how I
refer to them). Thought that might be what you were referring
to....Keeping a stone around for grounding purposes may be helpful. One
that's been touched by all the elements like a nice, round, river
stone......(earth forged in fire fueled by air, pushed up through layers
of more earth to be submerged in water and washed until smooth) Letting
it touch the person you are working with at all times helps keep them
grounded and consequently the work.
]Heh, so you like the Stone Folk or
]Pebble People :)
Heh heh....yeah......we connect well....:-)
]If you're on good standings, could
]you maybe persuade them to go and
]have a chat with me as well? I'm
]not doing too well with them myself.
]Y
<grin> They tell me they're perfectly willing to converse with you but
admit that 'pebble speak' isn't your first language and it keeps them
from relating easily....I'll see what they suggest. Possibly something
touching upon the element ritual you mentioned above. They can relate
to that sort of stuff since they are sooooo elemental themselves. :-)
Sloop
FLORA
Yes.
Cat indeed.
The purpose of my practice is divination (locating horses,) getting
things I want (like specific horses) Fertility rites (for my
broodmares, and stallion), and talking to the dead, to animals, and
the spirits surrounding and inhabiting my farm.
I do very little healing practice unless one of the horses, the dog,
or the little cats around here (I have six, currently) needs it. My
practice is aimed mostly at maintaining my rare-horse breeding outfit
and taking care of my spiritual needs.
My husband is Lutheran, and has no traffic with my spirits. Neither is
my family interested. I do not teach anything but Western-style
Horsemanship.
However, I DO garden.
So the "shamanism is Healing" statement, with the emphasis on
something that does not HAVE to be part of the practice, irritates me.
I belive there is not enough emphasis put on other aspects of
Animistic spirituality, and shamanistic techniques for purposes like
finding jobs, talking to your ancestors, and adding meaning in your
life, by associating more closely with the unappreciated, but more
humble aspects of our world...outside of just the aim of "feeling
good."
That is important, but it is not the point in life.
Sheathing her claws,
FLORA
(who sometimes resembles a cat in a house of pidgeons)
> >
> > Nick
Nick Argall
"FLORA" <floen...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1fdaec3.03012...@posting.google.com...
> I belive there is not enough emphasis put on other aspects of
> Animistic spirituality, and shamanistic techniques for purposes like
> finding jobs, talking to your ancestors, and adding meaning in your
> life, by associating more closely with the unappreciated, but more
> humble aspects of our world...outside of just the aim of "feeling
> good."
When I posted about being out of work, people wrote that I should ask my
spirits for help with that, and with the whole direction thing.
Despite my desire to flee programming, I've just spent several days learning
that I can't give my family the life I want them to have without doing it
for another year or two.
Bearing in mind that I don't have any spirit guides to ask questions of
(surely my personality isn't to blame!), any shamanic techniques for job
hunting out there?
Nick
Nick Argall
"Lucida" <spamb...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3e2f1559....@news.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:11:26 GMT, "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you prefer
> >the emphasis be placed?
> >
>
> I wonder why there needs to *be* an emphasis at all.
Good point. However, I think it's a very difficult thing to forbid people
from bringing their desires to anything that they do. The reality is that
everybody in this group wants to get something out of shamanism, one way or
the other. It's natural to emphasize the thing that you want.
> But as to
> healing, I think that it is not the same definition for everyone,
> especially in regards to what is necessary for healing. Some here will
> say that harm is the other, necessary side to healing, while I have
> also seen some take the position that healing is possible without
> harm. I know where my beliefs fall on this, but I would not expect
> that they be universally held.
Wisely said, especially the part where you don't express your view.
> When an aspect, any aspect of a complex "thing" (I think we can agree
> that shamanism is a complex "thing.") is given emphasis over other
> aspects, there is a tendency for that "thing" to be equated with that
> emphasized aspect. The other aspects then fade from recognition and
> the very "thing" itself changes over time. And that is very sad,
> because the other aspects are part of what gives that "thing" much of
> its value, its usefulness.
Yes.
Given that no individual person can be expected to approach any 'thing'
without bringing their desires and expectations to it, however, I believe
that rather than expecting superhuman performances from individuals, we look
for superhuman performances from groups of individuals. Emergence and all
that.
> >> Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I
> >wonder
> >> sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
> >
> >I think people are being honest and saying "I want to be happy." Seems
to
> >me to be better to aim directly at the target than fool yourself into
> >thinking that acquiring some other thing will result in happiness as a
> >side-effect.
>
> Ahhh... But do we truly know what will make us happy? Often, what we
> think will make us happy disappoints when it is finally attained. Or,
> we are then crushed when something happens in our life that takes that
> happiness away.
> I do not feel that we have a right (or responsibility) to be happy all
> the time. There are no guarantees that life will be easy or even fair.
> Just because something makes us feel good does not mean it is good for
> us. Children allowed the comfort of sucking their thumbs for years
> usually have dental problems.
> All things have their costs. Many things do not display the price tag
> prominently, or have hidden fees attached.
Hence the importance of self-awareness.
> I do not know if this is relevant to Yerune's point, but I feel it is
> important to consider.
> It is very easy to only look at the things we like best about any
> given "thing." The parts of it that can help us or make us feel
> better. But those parts are not the entire "thing." We have to be
> willing and able to accept *all* of it. Otherwise, it is not the same
> "thing" at all.
Hence, there is no "thing", just the various versions of the "thing" that
different people create for themselves.
> Consider what you probably know of archery as a Zen art. Would you say
> that picking a target and aiming for it is likely to produce the most
> satisfactory results? Hmmmm.... So, would aiming at happiness as a
> target be any more successful? Just a thought.
There are four levels of knowing about a thing:
Unconsious Incompetence: I don't know what I don't know
Conscious Incompetence: I know that I don't know.
Conscious Competence: I know that I know
Unconscious Competence: The knowing is a part of me, I've forgotten that I
know.
Zen encourages the competent to stop thinking about what they do. It does
not universally endorse unconsciousness, it's just that the parts of Zen
that do endorse it are the things that are fashionable.
I know that I don't know. Once I'm confident that I do know, I'll start
forgetting.
Nick
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Thu, Jan 23, 2003, 2:52am (EST+5)
From: nicka...@yahoo.com (Nick Argall)
]When I posted about being out of
]work, people wrote that I should ask
]my spirits for help with that, and with
]the whole direction thing.
]Despite my desire to flee
]programming, I've just spent several
]days learning that I can't give my
]family the life I want them to have
]without doing it for another year or two.
]Bearing in mind that I don't have any
]spirit guides to ask questions of
](surely my personality isn't to blame!),
]any shamanic techniques for job
]hunting out there?
]Nick
Actually Nick, it sounds like you do have a spirit guide(s) and that
they have spoken. They've weighed and measured your dreams/goals
against family obligations and have chosen to press upon you the need to
keep your nose to the grindstone, so to speak, right now because that is
the best way to achieve your goals.
_Something_ has pressed upon you the need to stick to what you have been
doing, so don't be too quick to dismiss it as strictly your idea.
Spirits don't always tell us what we want to hear.....Especially our
guides or guardians.....They're the ones who try to help and sometimes
they influence us in ways that seem dreary but really, in the long run,
will work in our favor. Just because you feel compelled to remain in a
line of work you are tired of doesn't mean you have no spirit guidance.
Trust your gut....its them speaking....and if they are telling you that
you would be better off remaining on a certain course of action for a
couple more years, than heed their advice.
Having spirit guides and asking them for assistance isn't always some
elaborate process of ritual that yields great signs in the form of
lightening striking.....Many, many times, our wishful thinking or
longing is enough to send out a quiet message of help and the help comes
in the form of gentle prodding or a persistent thought that just won't
let us be. Sounds to me like you've gotten some guidance about which
direction to head in.
As for any shamanic techniques for job hunting....well.....heh
heh.....how about the one you've used to get you this far? Sometimes
just asking is the best technique of all.....If you truly feel that
staying at what you're doing is the best advice, then ask your guide(s)
to help you locate a position......
Good luck,
Sloop
Lucida
wrote:
>
Nick,
This is not a shamanic technique, per se, but I find that the I Ching
is very helpful when it comes to practical matters. I do not use it a
divination, strictly speacking, but as a way to discover aspects of a
situation that I may be overlooking. I have found it to be very
responsive when used in this way. Of course YMMV... One thing that I
have found in working with translated texts, such as the I Ching, is
that I find it helpful to have several translations to work from.
Since Chinese is very idiomatic (which I don't need to tell you,)
having a few different views helps me to find what is actually meant.
Most people I have spoken to disagree on this point. It is often felt
tht by working with one version, you develop a connection with it.
Using multiple texts is said to be confuing. In my experience,
however, the correct passage is very obvious. It does not exactly
glow, like with cards, but it stands out from the rest and makes
something click in the mind. Aha! That's it. So, do what works for you
if you decide to do this.
Unlike Tarot or other forms of divination, the I Ching has a high rate
of success even with novices, from what I have read. From my
understanding of it, it offers a view of the situation as it is, and
offers advice on how best to be in accord with your circumstances so
as to have the best possible outcome. Very practical, if you ask me.
Good luck on the job hunt, and don't feel bad if it seems like you are
not making the changes you think you want to. Sometimes, we need to be
in a specific place somewhere down the road in order to meet or do
something that is more important than what we think we want to be
doing now. Maybe that is coming into play for you.
If you need to, you can feel free to email me off-list, too. You may
come across things when you throw that you do not want to put on
public display.
Blessings,
Lucida
Lucida
wrote:
>
>"Lucida" <spamb...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:3e2f1559....@news.earthlink.net...
>> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:11:26 GMT, "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you prefer
>> >the emphasis be placed?
>> >
>>
>> I wonder why there needs to *be* an emphasis at all.
>
>Good point. However, I think it's a very difficult thing to forbid people
>from bringing their desires to anything that they do. The reality is that
>everybody in this group wants to get something out of shamanism, one way or
>the other. It's natural to emphasize the thing that you want.
>
From Yerune's post, I did not feel that he was forbidding. Rather that
he was sad to see the trend towards "shamanism = healing" that is so
common today. Not just here, but everywhere. Emphasis *without
context* is what perpetuates this. I think that most people here are
very good about keeping the context, but go to the average bookstore
and see if you can find any.
>> But as to
>> healing, I think that it is not the same definition for everyone,
>> especially in regards to what is necessary for healing. Some here will
>> say that harm is the other, necessary side to healing, while I have
>> also seen some take the position that healing is possible without
>> harm. I know where my beliefs fall on this, but I would not expect
>> that they be universally held.
>
>Wisely said, especially the part where you don't express your view.
>
It is not essential to the discussion. No need to cloud the waters.
>> When an aspect, any aspect of a complex "thing" (I think we can agree
>> that shamanism is a complex "thing.") is given emphasis over other
>> aspects, there is a tendency for that "thing" to be equated with that
>> emphasized aspect. The other aspects then fade from recognition and
>> the very "thing" itself changes over time. And that is very sad,
>> because the other aspects are part of what gives that "thing" much of
>> its value, its usefulness.
>
>Yes.
>
>Given that no individual person can be expected to approach any 'thing'
>without bringing their desires and expectations to it, however, I believe
>that rather than expecting superhuman performances from individuals, we look
>for superhuman performances from groups of individuals. Emergence and all
>that.
>
I don't see this as expecting people not to bring desires and
expectations. Rather, to me, it is acknowledging them as just that-
desires and expectations and not the "thing" itself. It is also about
keeping context. Without context it is meaningless.
>> >> Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I
>> >wonder
>> >> sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
>> >
>> >I think people are being honest and saying "I want to be happy." Seems
>to
>> >me to be better to aim directly at the target than fool yourself into
>> >thinking that acquiring some other thing will result in happiness as a
>> >side-effect.
>>
>> Ahhh... But do we truly know what will make us happy? Often, what we
>> think will make us happy disappoints when it is finally attained. Or,
>> we are then crushed when something happens in our life that takes that
>> happiness away.
>> I do not feel that we have a right (or responsibility) to be happy all
>> the time. There are no guarantees that life will be easy or even fair.
>> Just because something makes us feel good does not mean it is good for
>> us. Children allowed the comfort of sucking their thumbs for years
>> usually have dental problems.
>> All things have their costs. Many things do not display the price tag
>> prominently, or have hidden fees attached.
>
>Hence the importance of self-awareness.
>
Never a bad thing, just be aware that it does not make you infallible
or invincible. Just better prepared to deal with the consequences.
>> I do not know if this is relevant to Yerune's point, but I feel it is
>> important to consider.
>> It is very easy to only look at the things we like best about any
>> given "thing." The parts of it that can help us or make us feel
>> better. But those parts are not the entire "thing." We have to be
>> willing and able to accept *all* of it. Otherwise, it is not the same
>> "thing" at all.
>
>Hence, there is no "thing", just the various versions of the "thing" that
>different people create for themselves.
>
And now we get to the point where we decide just how much of the
original "thing" these new "things" must contain to be considered
similar. That is nowhere I want to go at this hour of the morning. Or
ever, for that matter. Very tricky ground here.
I consider myself a pagan, and a witch. Now, explaining that is a
trick when you want to maintain context. I am not Wiccan, even though
there is much in my practice and belief system that is rooted in it.
However, while I do have some Wiccan elements, I do not feel that who
and what I am follows closely enough to what I perceive constitutes
"Wicca" to say that I practice it.
However, using broader definitions and lowercase letters, I am
comfortable enough that I can use pagan and witch to describe me,
although I acknowledge that even within those categories, it is a
loose fit.
Sometimes labels are needed for basic conversational shorthand, but,
they are also pretty sticky if you want to be sincere about them, and
keep it all in context. And to me, this is important. My path is my
own. What I do is representative of me and no one else. I do not care
to place words in the mouths of others, as that makes me responsible
for them. So, I am pretty careful about what I claim to be.
This is a very round about way of illustrating my feelings on taking
care to preserve the context of a thing, as it helps in making the
labels actually *mean* something when they have to be used.
>> Consider what you probably know of archery as a Zen art. Would you say
>> that picking a target and aiming for it is likely to produce the most
>> satisfactory results? Hmmmm.... So, would aiming at happiness as a
>> target be any more successful? Just a thought.
>
>There are four levels of knowing about a thing:
>Unconsious Incompetence: I don't know what I don't know
>Conscious Incompetence: I know that I don't know.
>Conscious Competence: I know that I know
>Unconscious Competence: The knowing is a part of me, I've forgotten that I
>know.
>
>Zen encourages the competent to stop thinking about what they do. It does
>not universally endorse unconsciousness, it's just that the parts of Zen
>that do endorse it are the things that are fashionable.
>
>I know that I don't know. Once I'm confident that I do know, I'll start
>forgetting.
>
>
What I was driving art here, apparently far more clumsily than I had
hoped, was the relative importance of the target to the archer and the
bow and arrow. My take on this issue is that when the archer and the
bow and arrow are - now words fail me, but I think you know what I
mean... all I can say is "there." Then, the target does not matter. It
will be found by the arrow. Arrrggggghhhh.... I hate when language
betrays me. I hope you are better aware of my direction with this. I
cannot, apparently, do any better just now.
BTW, I am at the knowing I don't know stage, too. So, you are far from
alone.
Blessings,
Lucida
>
>Nick
>
>
Di-a-rama
14164-3E...@storefull-2191.public.lawson.webtv.net,
"Sloop...@webtv.net" <Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote:
> ]Heh, so you like the Stone Folk or
> ]Pebble People :)
>
>
> Heh heh....yeah......we connect well....:-)
So *THAT* is my problem...
I was wondering why I always come back from vacations with 10 pounds of
rocks in my luggage. They are so much like kittens--how can you really not
take ALL of them home, especially when they keep mewing at you?
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
8hJX9.19425$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Nick Argall"
<nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are four levels of knowing about a thing:
> Unconsious Incompetence: I don't know what I don't know
> Conscious Incompetence: I know that I don't know.
> Conscious Competence: I know that I know
> Unconscious Competence: The knowing is a part of me, I've forgotten that I
> know.
>
> Zen encourages the competent to stop thinking about what they do. It does
> not universally endorse unconsciousness, it's just that the parts of Zen
> that do endorse it are the things that are fashionable.
>
> I know that I don't know. Once I'm confident that I do know, I'll start
> forgetting.
This sounds nice. I like most of it and think it is relevant.
However, the 4th stage--where the knowing becomes a part of the person--I
think that is present regardless of consciousness/unconsciousness or
competence/incompetence. Lack of awareness is only the excuse that keeps
one from using that knowledge. And I think many people don't want to know,
even when this knowledge shows itself in their lives.
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
6813-3E2...@storefull-2192.public.lawson.webtv.net,
"Sloop...@webtv.net" <Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote:
> Having spirit guides and asking them for assistance isn't always some
> elaborate process of ritual that yields great signs in the form of
> lightening striking.....Many, many times, our wishful thinking or
> longing is enough to send out a quiet message of help and the help comes
> in the form of gentle prodding or a persistent thought that just won't
> let us be. Sounds to me like you've gotten some guidance about which
> direction to head in.
>
>
> As for any shamanic techniques for job hunting....well.....heh
> heh.....how about the one you've used to get you this far? Sometimes
> just asking is the best technique of all.....If you truly feel that
> staying at what you're doing is the best advice, then ask your guide(s)
> to help you locate a position......
Well said, Sloop! :D
I might also add--doing the mundane part of it doesn't always seem like
magick, but it is an important part of completing the whole cycle that
starts with spirit, moves to intention, then to the heart/gut and finally
needs some hands-on assistance to get it moving in ordinary reality.
Cheers,
Dianne
SilverSong
that's my excuse for not responding much.
"Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:OTvX9.16795$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:3e29c29b$0$22764$e4fe...@dreader8.news.xs4all.nl...
> > > HEALING is a significant aspect of shamanic practice in today's world,
> if
> > > not the core of western, shamanic practice.
> >
> > Sad thing is, that it's true.
>
> What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you prefer
> the emphasis be placed?
As was said, the assumption and emphasis of healing as Core of western
Shamanic magic or practice is healing. I don't dispute that we Western folk
need a lot of healing, but well, let's see if I can sum it up in this one
quote:
"We don't need to heal Mother Earth, we need to stop making Her ill"
With all the attempts and focus at healing that we do, we still screw up the
environment and the ecosystem. Maybe even more, when we go around all
'healed' and think we can get away with it no worries.
One example, I've seen 'healing folk' carrying around electric bedheaters
for their weeklong retreat to a 'back to nature' camp. No electricity, so
they demanded there'd be a gasguzzling generator right next door. How bloody
stupid can you get?
So there's my emphasis, getting in touch with Nature, the Mother, the
Goddess, the Mud.
> > We're obsessed with the band-aids, self-empowerment and personal growth.
>
> 'Band-aids'?
Temporary patches, helping us to avoid feeling the pain, so we're not
confronted with the hurting we do to ourselves and others. Too many patches,
and you'll walk around like a mummy, numb to the world.
> > Screw everything else, as long as it helps us 'grow' and 'develop'. I
> wonder
> > sometimes though, what will we grow into when we go about it this way?
>
> I think people are being honest and saying "I want to be happy." Seems to
> me to be better to aim directly at the target than fool yourself into
> thinking that acquiring some other thing will result in happiness as a
> side-effect.
Sure they're honest. The people throwing toxic waste in the sewage canals
are being honest in their attempt to get rid of the stuff as well. And
they're happy, as long as it's not their own riverbed their laying to waste.
There's a real difference between being happy because you're so fluffy that
anything loks great, because it doesn't bother you anymore, and being happy
because you are doing your bit in the world around you.
You're a father, tell me that seeing your daughter have a good time doesn't
make you feel good. Then tell me how that compares to being 'healed' from
some minor obsession with chocolate (for example) you might have had.
You're right, that method you described is a bit materialistic thinking. "If
I get that, own that or have done this, I will be happy". Problem is though,
doing that stuff can very easily screw things up real good.
"I need gold to be happy. I need oil to be happy and drive a car. So OFF
WITH THE INDIANS, I have a divine RIGHT to be happy! Demmit".
See my point?
Well, it's off with me now. No idea when I'll get back (but I might surprise
even myself :)
With the Wind
Yerune
bear
> Very well said, Yerune. All of it. Hell with you around I don't need
> to post anymore! <grin>
>
> Joseph
I think Yerune is great and has a wonderful way with words, but
nothing can replace a focused and concentrated blast from you....
I have been hibernating and getting my house in order so I was reduced
to lurker status while I was changing jobs and healing. I hope you are
feeling strong and full of clarity.
bear
Know that you will eventually leave programming and become what you
want to become.
Look within you and search for that desired position or career that
would be an ultimate goal for you.
It could be anything.
To reach it, you must take small steps down until you get to being a
programmer. Be active in the controling aspects of your life. If you
wish to get better at something, do it, take classes in it. Do what
you know and then make progress to the next step. Each time you are
lost and you do not know where you are, you can look at this tree and
see the path to your ultimate goal.
Write now you are about half way up the trunk or out on one of the
branches. You see that this is not where you want to be, you have to
stand up and start walking again and control what you can around you
before you can start moving once more. You must attain your balance,
then move. You have obligations that you have created that you must
cover, so do what you must to cover those, then start moving. Nothing
is at a standstill. Progression can be controlled.
Di-a-rama
"Lucida" <spamb...@webtv.net> wrote:
> Unlike Tarot or other forms of divination, the I Ching has a high rate
> of success even with novices, from what I have read. From my
> understanding of it, it offers a view of the situation as it is, and
> offers advice on how best to be in accord with your circumstances so
> as to have the best possible outcome. Very practical, if you ask me.
This is not to discount your experience in any way...just want to add my 2
cents. :)
I think that the method of divination almost chooses the individual rather
than the other way around. I've tried many of them: I Ching, Tarot, Runes,
Horary Astrology...plus shamanic journey divination, rock divination,
pendulum, L-rods (for dowsing), book divination (where you open a book
"randomly" and read the chosen passage) and non-tarot card decks. Oh, and
did I mention Magic 8-Ball?
It is important to not dismiss divination out of hand just because one
particular way doesn't work for a particular individual. And while I feel I
can recommend certain methods, I think it is an extremely personal matter.
Anything I feel resonance with may be totally dead to somebody else.
One thing that is true for all methods--they are mirrors of sorts. They
trigger greater awareness within us by reflecting "truths" through symbols.
The real trick is to learn how to tap into the ability which we already
have--how do we trigger it or learn to read the signs, so to speak. That
also is a very personal matter.
For me, this is what makes it "divination" and not "fortune telling".
Cheers,
Dianne
Brett
> One example, I've seen 'healing folk' carrying around electric bedheaters
> for their weeklong retreat to a 'back to nature' camp. No electricity, so
> they demanded there'd be a gasguzzling generator right next door. How
bloody
> stupid can you get?
Yup, I've seen people carry electric generators and TVs into the BWCA, a
Wilderness area, so that they can have their electric toothbrush and watch
the game. Nothing like the sound of heavy metal music echoing across the
lakes at 2am to just *make* your wilderness experience...
But I suppose that's not too much worse than the morons I went with last
time, who threw all of our hard-gathered firewood on the fire just before we
went to bed (creating a virtual bonfire that was left unattended as we
slept - in a forest), just so that there would be a -few coals- left to cook
with when they got up. I could not convince them of the stupidity of this,
on more than one level. (I will not be going with them, ever again. For
more than just that.)
The WJS had an article about five years ago on stupid tourists in National
Parks. Loved the letters they'd get from people demanding that they spray
the forests for bugs and stupid things like that. Much like the 350 pound
woman who was just ahead of me attempting to climb out of Chaco Canyon about
10 years ago. She wanted escalators put there, because it was difficult.
> Temporary patches, helping us to avoid feeling the pain, so we're not
> confronted with the hurting we do to ourselves and others. Too many
patches,
> and you'll walk around like a mummy, numb to the world.
When I was a child, I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look, but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child has grown, the dream is gone.
I.....I...I have become Comfortably Numb.
(Pink Floyd; The Wall; Comfortably Numb. For those who don't get the
reference)
tamara
>The WJS had an article about five years ago on stupid tourists in National
>Parks
reminds me of the "forest ranger" woman that burned the love letter from her ex
in the forest, and ended up causing that massive forest fire in Colorado last
summer...
tamara
>I think that the method of divination almost chooses the individual rather
>than the other way around. I've tried many of them: I Ching, Tarot, Runes,
>Horary Astrology...plus shamanic journey divination, rock divination,
>pendulum, L-rods (for dowsing), book divination (where you open a book
>"randomly" and read the chosen
>passage) and non-tarot card decks. Oh, and
>did I mention Magic 8-Ball?
I do the random book thing..
I've been doing that since I was a teen....
I never quite thought of it as divination...but now that you mention it, I can
very much see where it is....
Tamara
Brett
tamara <magikri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030123212415...@mb-fz.aol.com...
Sloop...@webtv.net
Group: alt.religion.shamanism Date: Thu, Jan 23, 2003, 5:13pm (EST+5)
From: bro...@SPAM.com (Di-a-rama)
]'So *THAT* is my problem...
]I was wondering why I always come
]back from vacations with 10 pounds
]of rocks in my luggage. They are so
]much like kittens--how can you really
]not take ALL of them home,
]especially when they keep mewing
]at you?
]Cheers,
]Dianne
Bead shops and rock shops can really hang me up.....its awful......I'm
fascinated by the colors, I'm fascinated by the forms......I have to
pick them all up, hold them in my hands, I can be a real mess! Jewelry
stores use to trip me up too....all those pretty colored stones flashing
brightly.....Unfortunately, I know more about precious stones than I do
about making money so I had to stop wondering into _those_
stores...lol....
Some years ago I had a neighbor who was re-doing her garden. She was
replacing all her lovely large landscaping type stones with brick....I
was like...ooooh....if you don't want them, could I have them? She said
sure, go ahead......I happily carried them all off and made a lovely
rock garden......A couple of years later when I moved, the moving van
was all loaded and the one guy looked at me and said, "Anything else?"
I said....,"Yeah....those rocks," and pointed to the garden.......
I have those rocks to this day! :-)
Sloop
Nita Byrd
> I think that the method of divination almost chooses the individual rather
> than the other way around. I've tried many of them: I Ching, Tarot,
Runes,
> Horary Astrology...plus shamanic journey divination, rock divination,
> pendulum, L-rods (for dowsing), book divination (where you open a book
> "randomly" and read the chosen passage) and non-tarot card decks. Oh, and
> did I mention Magic 8-Ball?
>
> It is important to not dismiss divination out of hand just because one
> particular way doesn't work for a particular individual. And while I feel
I
> can recommend certain methods, I think it is an extremely personal matter.
> Anything I feel resonance with may be totally dead to somebody else.
>
> One thing that is true for all methods--they are mirrors of sorts. They
> trigger greater awareness within us by reflecting "truths" through
symbols.
> The real trick is to learn how to tap into the ability which we already
> have--how do we trigger it or learn to read the signs, so to speak. That
> also is a very personal matter.
>
> For me, this is what makes it "divination" and not "fortune telling".
>
> Cheers,
> Dianne
Well done, Dianne! The pendulum with chain or string end wrapped around the
forefinger, hovering above a Chevraul's Chart (a circle with a cross
intersection to indicate a movement of the pendulum, say, horizontally to
indicate a "yes" to a question, with "no" movement going up and down on the
vertical line. I use this simple pendulum method with many clients as an
introduction before hypnosis to show them they already know the answer to
questions formed by the conscious mind, by accessing the deep waters of the
subconscious mind. The symbol through movement, of either a "yes" "now" or
even "maybe" is quite fascinating. I've a cherished collection of pendulums
that I keep in a small laquered golden brown chest with gold colored latch &
lined in soft felt. Beginning with my first from the NGH, my hypnotist's
guild, I received a heavy crystal ball on a chain. I have two that are
blue-green and earthtone triangular carved stones found only at Machu
Picchu, Peru. Another is a clear and elongated crystal on a white ribbon.
One pendulum has a round flat, clear glass disc with a holographic rose at
the holding end.
I also use stones that attract me that I find on walks in the woods where I
live, for divination, for another if needed. I use the Harner method for
this. I have on occasion, used the same simple law of attraction, to using
them as healing stones for myself by ritual of a fire going in the
fireplace. Other power stones I brought back with me from Peru-- places
such as Inka temples and ruins, river banks, on mountains and in caves,
wherever my group joined together for rituals, ceremonies and teachings in
the Andean spirit traditions of Peru.
Heh, I have some L-rods somewhere....:) So if dowsing is of significance in
European "geomancy", I wonder what Apu would tell us about the intruments
used in the alps near.... Augsberg?
Lucida, the I Ching works well for you, I wish you continued success with
it.
Nick, while looking for your job, keep your spirit aglow through letting the
creative juices flow.
Sending intent that you'll acquire a new job soon, and with so many other
strong intents here, you're going to attract that next job:).
Nita
Azathool
"Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:b0qsvp$3kb$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Heh, I have some L-rods somewhere....:) So if dowsing is of significance in
> European "geomancy", I wonder what Apu would tell us about the intruments
> used in the alps near.... Augsberg?
Not in the intent of interfering, but L-rods, if I understand the word correctly
could be exchanged for a Y-shaped branch of a Sallow, taken in the spring. The
Sallow is the same tree that you use to make willow pipes from. The Y-shaped
branch is called a divining-rod and it is first and foremost used to find
underground streams of water to build wells, but it is also used to find the
Lea-lines. As always the result is very dependant on the practisioners skill.
Ohh.. and while on the subject of pendulums. Ever tried make it stop after it has
begun moving, or just stop while being of center, liek leaning in thin air? Really
fun and a good practice for learning to focus and control it愀 movement...
FLORA
I just pulled a rock out of my purse, that I picked up in Heidelburg,
Germany, while I had visited the Shloss (castle) ruins. It is a
pinkish quartz and it was very much as you say--mewing to come home
with me. It now rides in my bag very happily, going where I go.
FLORA
(Who just fixed the mother of the little white kitten. He was a big
boy and spent his first night alone. I a very proud that he took it
like a man.)
Nita Byrd
> > laid eyes on the classic tales, though. It is one of those archetypal
> > tales, that no matter what the exact title, everyone knows what you're
> > referring to. I know why I did that unconscious slip. I have an NLP
book
> > with the title Frogs into Princes, an obvious spin-off on the original
> folk
> > tale.
>
> Going to get it serious again, because I find this exactly a prime example
> of what is 'wrong' with our present day society.
What? (scratches head) Classic fairy tales written and collected by the
great literary scholars of the 19th Century, such as Brothers Grimm and Hans
Christian Anderson, are MADE of literary substance, which in themselves can
be identified with human nature and archetypes that are universally
familiar...shrug. You chose to focus on my thoughts by making a sweeping
generalization degrading the psychological aspects of literary "stuff", the
literary backdrop and motives for the telling of these tales by these
authors. The psychological is just one perspective, lad, whether you
personally agree or not. Taken what I said above out of the context of my
sincere question to the members here about what shamanic elements can they
find in classic fairy tales, was quite uncalled for.
It is my understanding that the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson,
who were European literary scholars of the 19th Century, wrote literary
fairy tales which are classics come down today. Hans Christian Anderson was
a Dane, who had a very interesting creative life. I believe he wrote fairy
tales not only for children, but for adults as well. One of his most famous
is "The Emporer's New Clothes", a tale about a king who believed he had a
wonderful new set of clothes to parade in, when he was actually naked. All
of the people who had lined up to watch the royal parade, agreed on social
concensus to believe that he was dressed in splendid new clothes. And in
fact, it took one child's voice to speak up and point out the truth--"the
emporer is wearing no clothes"--to start a snowball of startled townspeople
to wake up out of trance, and perceive reality! It is a psychological
reflection on a truism of civilization-- past or present-- on the nature of
social conditioning; a reading of the great French philosopher, Montaigne,
will bring up much commentary on social conditioning, which seemed to be
such a magnet of interest for so many authors. Why? It was the authors'
ways to raise the consciousness of the citizens for insistance on more
humane conditions for themselves and their children. These "fairy stories"
were meant to have psychological levels or layers of meaning, to be suitable
for all ages, whether you approve or not, Yerune. Children are amused and
enchanted with them, I know I was. But the authors also intended their
tales for adults and the sometimes serious moral lessons imbedded within
them, perhaps even as he or she read the tale to their youngsters. Everyone
remembers "The Ugly Duckling", a fairy tale about a beautiful swan's egg
that got into a duck's nest accidentally, and hatched and raised by a mother
duck. He was ridiculed by his brother and sister ducks because he was
different, therefore "ugly". In the end, after a long life growing up
laughed at and shunned by those nearest him, the swan flew up from the duck
pond, in all his beauty, to join those of his own kind, another flock of
swans. In another version, he meets a female swan. (Han Christian
Anderson's love interest was spurned by each of the 3 women he sought during
his lifetime), the admiration he received from his stories helped ease his
loneliness in the end. So it is quite possible to project all kinds of
perspectives onto a fairy tale: literary, psychological, gestalt, moral,
even shamanic elements, I suspect...but how many know that this tale,
according to the author, was based on his own life?
> I cannot and will not deny the validity that certain concepts do appeal
and
> reflect psychological processes. People can identify with a character in
> such a tale, even all characters and events in a form of gestallt-therapy
> setting, where everything you dream or relate to are aspects of yourself.
> The frog being the ugly side of yourself that you have to kiss after it
> gives you presents, and turns into a rightly Ken as reward when you do.
> Coming to terms with your less desired side, transforming it in the
process
> of accepting. All that kind of stuff.
Thank you.
Yerune: Yet this is only a so very small part of what is 'out there', what
is
> happening. I find it a terrible waste if tales, fairy tales or myths, are
> only taken in a context of psychological interpretation.
I agree.
Not only a waste,
> but an aid in the feeling being cut off from the world around you.
>
> In other words, the psychological interpretation is really missing the
> point.
The psychological aspect is as valid a perspective as any other, including
the moral, literary, political, autobiographical, gestalt, humorous,
children's amusement, amazement and enchantment...including whatever
shamanic elements of practice, spiritual traditions, and wisdom may be found
in fairy tales. You may consider the above as taking the aspects of the
fairy tale and breaking it down into little pieces. However, I see it as
showing that fairy tales, just like life itself, has many interesting
facets, or ways of perception. Why make judgements against any one view,
when it isn't a question of right or wrong, but rather, what one wants to
"see". By simply describing the elements which you wish to introduce or
bring attention to, that is enough and more likely to accomplish your
well-meaning intentions. Er...I'm not assuming too much....? :)
Yerune: And our present day society has a tendency or either obsession to
> mentalize and psychologize nearly everything.
Although I shy away from "globular reasoning" so to help prevent myself from
putting my own bias out upon the world:), I hope you don't see my few casual
thoughts, coming from my background as a hypnotherapist, and a few
observations, as one who fits that description--an "obsession to
mentalize....nearly everything". You did, after all, point your finger at
what I'd said, to represent "what is wrong" (the psychological view).
In fact, I would have gone back to college if I thought the field of
psychology was going to give me a _lot of help_ in my practice, but I've not
had a lot of reason to believe that. However, the idea of being a better
counselor appeals to me, and certainly some of what psychology teaches will
help me recognize more about human nature. It would be a great help for the
interview section of my session, for one thing. A good understanding of
psychology, or behavior of the mind, has always been "owned" by the shaman.
It wasn't named as such, but where do you think the origin of knowledge
about human behavior came from--surely not just from Freud and Jung!-- I
wonder just how much psychological crap though, I'll have to wade through
with Psych. as my major.... on the other hand, I think higher education is a
value in its own right, not just the field of counseling psychology (which
isn't really a science, but departmentalized at the univ. level to be so),
but anthropology, art, music, literature, the liberal arts--opens up new
ways of thinking, new knowledge gained and appreciated, perspectives
broadened, the sharing of views and making friendships with others on the
same track--the excitement of participating in learning.
Yerune: I mean, taking it back to shamanism, you can see a power animal as
a
> visualised and so externalized aspect of yourself,
You may.... but I have three classifications of spirit helpers, not counting
the guides or teachers: The first: I see and am aware of P.A.'s as
*internal spirits* who, while existing independently of my ego, mostly are
contained within my mind, as they may be reached when called upon for
serious shamanic work during journey trance, or other objectives. They can
pick up and leave any time they please, but don't, unless they are totally
ignored. If one leaves and I find I want the spirit back, I have the
dickens of a time coaxing it back to help in any way. That's why I revere
my helpers, they are sacred beings.
The second is like my Apu, the Llama. This Apu, a mountain spirit, exists
as a mountain in CA. It is the spirit that holds a lifetime influence on
me, from my own land, the USA. So since I've established a powerful
connection and can visualize it, it can be said that it can be internalized,
yet the true spirit remains the mountain itself, in CA. I know that even
though I've received this spirit, seen it as inside myself in my vision
during an Inka karpay, I am still aware it exists as the physical mountain's
own spirit. I have a means of calling upon a representative of this
spirit, however, without it's essence actually vacating the mountian:). This
kind of alliance is more powerful than any other kind of spirit cooperation,
in my experience.
The third category, outside the mind spirits: The other spirits exist
independently, completely outside of myself, and have nothing to do with
what I think or do not think. This makes my world full of magic. I never
know what meeting or experience on the spiritual side, is just around the
bend on the road of my life. They are external spirits and are to be found
everywhere one wants to look, or know, or sense or hear or feel. They don't
come from the imagination, they exist entirely on their own. I don't
attract spirits that expect bargains or have sinister auras, simply because
I don't look for them, aren't interested in setting up alliances with them.
This is my discernment, it may not be yours or another practitioners
experience.
Yerune: while still treating it
> as an outside entity or force. But you're only seeing it on *your* inside,
> you only focus on how your mind interprets the given. Which means you
don't
> see it as an external being, independant and on it's own. In other words,
> you claim it as yourself or your own, like we Ant People do with near
> everything.
I agree that some shamanic practitioners could perceive everything from the
inside, especially those who are new, and those who practice Harner
shamanism exclusively. But for me, it has been an ever expanding cascade of
spiritual possibilities and eye-opening discoveries. I know it was a big
revelation to me to receive the spirit of the Apu, and discover that,
contrary to much of my hypnotherapy training, there WERE outside spirits
whom I could set up powerful alliances with, especially through the karpay,
a ceremony of Inka initiation. At least that is my experience so far. I
started off a transpersonal hypnotherapist, but did not care for some of the
ways being taught in that sector, such as sending "entities to the light".
It just didn't ring true, too much fabrication of techniques to fit the
shamanic principle, you might say. Yet when I did work ala Michael Harner
style, with training from shaman, Dana Robinson in the art of spirit
extraction healing, it clicked for me. I seem to gravitate more naturally
to the simpler techniques, the shamanic techniques, which I find so
effective in helping people. When I re-frame a traumatic event, one that
harmed someone emotionally once apon a time, often as a child, it is simple
steps used in that hypnotic trance state, that are just commen sense
psychological principles done in a shamanic way, that seem to be very
effective in my work. No, I didn't learn that from being trained to do it
that way, I took some of the psychological principles suggested in my
training, and motivated by love and caring for each person who seeks out my
help, came up with something uniquely my own. And it too, changes during
the session to meet the unique needs of the individual.
It is my opinion, the early shamans were the forerunners of todays
psychologists, psychiatrists, priests, herbal healers/dieticians,
divinators/fortune tellers/prophets, homeopaths, naturalpaths,
acupunturists, escorts of the dead, energy healers, and other modern
specialists, the well known, and the obscure. The core of most of modern
objectives is in achieving something for another's well-being. So a
majority of objectives naturally fall into the category of
"healing"--expeciall of the sick in mind, spirit, emotions or body. Spirit
can befall the same ills as other aspects of oneself, as in the ego's
(consciousness) failure to love and respect one's sacred center of being,
the Inner Voice of Spirit.
Nita: Bearing your observations above, I really wish to re-read the story
> > in it basic form, and see it with fresh eyes. I would like to do that,
> > because I've known since I was a child that the reading of a folk tale
> does
> > something to one's spirit--it nurtures it, puts more life into it and
> opens
> > the heart up to the wonder of life itself. It is quite fun to return to
> > thoughts of those magical tales...
>
Yerune: Exactly. The present day versions are adapted to suit the needs of
the
> current society. Based on older tales, which to laymen like me, are hard
to
> come by (I found only some tidbits, nothing solid).
> They are based on magic tales, but interpreted in 'common language' and
> unfortunately, taken out of context and the only meaning they retain is
that
> of psychology. Unless you look a bit closer. Real magic, not NLP stuff.
Real magic? Heh, NLP is a type of hypnosis, and I've experienced it as a
kind of magic for my clients, anyway. Imagine placing one part of your
personality that is in conflict with another part of yourself, in each of
your hands. So one in your left, one in your right. When a serious
conflict is present in a person, one part wants something and the other
wants something else. So the outcome of a major conflict, is behavior that
is keeping the person from improvement or happiness. So using NLP, you make
a pact with each conflict to put forth the best of each--you don't want to
get rid of either part--you just want to enlist both their energies in a
constructive, rather than destructive mode...so you conclude after a series
of steps, to end up with asking respectfully for the best of both to
cooperate for the well-being of the whole. You use the body to be an active
participant, because the subconcious, is after all, the body. How about the
classic element referred to in shamanic lore of the shaman "flying out of
the body" in shamanic ecstasy during journey trance. Remember that Juan
asks Don Carlos "Did I really fly, Juan?" (After tripping, in the first of
the famous trilogy, A Yaqui Way of Knowlege...if my memory has it correctly:
I think the answer was something like no you didn't appear to fly to those
around you, but you yourself, actually flew into another dimension. It
really refers to the separation of consciousness, or the ego, the mental,
separating in a dramatic way from the body, the physical. Touching by
creating anchors, based upon knowledge of emotions and neural pathways,
erasing old, destructive emotions for newer, postives ones, is an important
component of NLP, or Neuro-Lingistic Programming. Yeah. some of the jargon
is enough to make you P.... but I always look to the essence of what
teachings are in anything, and cull out what rings true for me...what I can
work with. I think, as you've stated before, in one of your posts Y, that
if we were to talk all this out in _real time_ we'd come to agreements, as
we always have. I brought up the subject from a literary viewpoint, having
a deep and abiding love as a child for the European-based tales of the
Brothers Grimm and especially for Hans Christian Anderson, who I recognized
as quite a gentle spirit, behind the story-telling. Since I'm most familiar
with fairy tales & the true effects of nurturing the spirit of children,
based on my own childhood enjoyment, as well as some of the literary
perpective and perhaps some of the mental viewpoints also, I asked a simple
question about the shamanic elements, because I'm interested in learning
about them, as a perspective to all the other ways of "seeing". Folk tales
that are told by the people, in a person to person way, I think, are what
you're really getting at more than the literary considerations. I suspect
that not only the literary creations, but indigenous and country folk tales
and sagas contain a wealth of shamanic elements
Nita: Little Red Riding Hood always had an element that, of course, was a
little
> > sinister, scary. Indirectly, one identified with the wild, hidden side
of
> > oneself as it was expressed in the form of the wolf. That's just a
glance
> > at that story. Perhaps Tamara has something to add to our understanding
> of
> > the story.
>
Y: Talking animals. Getting devoured but still alive in the critters
stumach.
> Cutting that stumach open, sewing it closed again and still the critter
> survives the operation. All these elements are basically shamanic, at the
> very least animistic.
Now your answer is so interesting, and that's all I ever asked for, is what
are the shamanic elements to be found in fairy tales!
> There's a tale about a fox called Reindert, who constantly betrays every
> animal in the forest, even his close friend badger. The king is a lion,
who
> is rather gullible due his pride. The context of the whole tale is taken
to
> be a satire on the state of Europe and it's King(s) around (guessing now,
> don't have the book at hand) the 1800's.
> Again, talking animals, deeply symbolic and possibly totemic. I mean, this
> is exactly the kind of tale you get to hear in the Otherworlds, where this
> sort of stuff is the 'common language' precisely.
Notice Y, you can't help but bring psychology and politics (satire being the
engine of the tale) as perspectives along with shamanic views as valid
points of reference:) Tales can't but help reflect human flaws and give
psychological insights to our own behavior through animals' thoughts.
Haven't shamans always been deeply associated with understanding animals and
their behaviors, as well as their fellow human beings? The fox is cunning
and a trickster. The tales told by the early shamans probably always were a
means to pass along their unique cultural heritage, but they were also
teaching tales, that taught alot by indirect association through animal
stories where they talked like humans (sorry, couldn't help but put in a
psych. term, because that best explains it, IMO:) Heh....in highschool the
guys say about some of the girls...."she's a fox", but it was a compliment
in those days:). The king in the "Emporer's New Clothes" was like the lion
in Reindert, he was gullible because of his pride, too, into thinking he had
on the finest clothes, when in fact, he had none.
Yerune: It's such a terrible loss. We marvel at foreign cultures their
native tales,
> the more spiritual amongst us will see the tales as indeed being about
> spirits. But when it comes to our own tales, it's only about aspects of
the
> human psyche (which deep down we believe so are the other tales) or it's
> satire. It's like we cannot believe we have magic just as well.
Ah, so now Fairy Tales are....really about _spirits_ and all the other
stuff, like insights into human nature, especially our flaws, politics,
satire, serious moral teachings as well as children's amusement are
insignificant to what is _real_--spirits? I'm sorry, I regret that I can't
view it that way. I don't think that it is correct to toss out what may
very well have been other purposes from the authors' points of view, while
at times, the purpose may have been to reveal the nature of spirits in SOME
of those tales, as you suggested. Well....I love listening to Mozart's
music, which is a tale told not in words, but tones, beats.... melodies.
Heck, I've played a little of the easier pieces from Mozart on my violin,
which gives another perspective from just listening, to that of performing.
Mozart isn't native to the USA, but he is considered the world's treasure,
although born in Bonn, Germany, I think. I don't know exactly what you mean
by the magic though--I think everyone recognizes that children are bemused
and "enchanted" by them, and I associate the word "enchantment" with magic,
so......then as I've mentioned above, there are several elements or
perspective to _Fairy Tales_. They are ALL quite fascinating, indeed!!!
Nita: The Princess and the Pea--only a real Princess would recognize a
little,
> > hard dry pea being placed under her mattress. When a little girl, I
> > remember meditating over why a _real_ Princess had such powers. I don't
> > remember being able to answer this puzzle, but it certainly got my mind
to
> > thinking on it. The more fairy tales I read, the more I was convinced
> that
> > Royalty had some kind of special powers. Perhaps one of the intentions
is
> > to attract one to identify one's own hidden self as royalty...not in an
> > arrogant way, but as "unique" and with magical powers. Mainly for me,
the
> > stories were about some element of happening that was magical, and it
> > delighted me to read about magic.
>
Y: Actually Nita, that's exactly why those tales are made and interpreted
that
> way. They were tales about 'special' people, and the ruling classes didn't
> like 'special' people belonging to the lower classes. Only their own kin
was
> 'special'. So the milk-maid became a would-be princess. It's a good way to
> get the 'common folk' believing that royal blood was special blood, and
the
> inbreeding was justified. (Perhaps to retain the retardedness linked to
that
> so-called 'blue blood')
Well, you're really pointing out how each person, upon reading a story,
can't help but identify with the characters based on his own life
experiences. You're saying that there was less magic, than there was kingly
politics behind many of the fairy tales, especially "The Princess and the
Pea" story. It's surely plain to see that folk tales and their objectives
are different in various phases of human history, and vary from each creator
of those tales in purpose.
Y: A woman's sensitivity is tested by sleeping on a score of mattrasses
with
> one pea underneath. If she is sensitive enough, she passes. The reward, in
> this case, is royalty. Doesn't this remind you of both an initiation, but
> also the training of a seer?
Good discussion. Yes, I see what you mean. Interesting shamanic
perspective. That's what I asked for, thanks.
Yerune:> The meditation you did is great, but you believe the hype and
assumed that
> it was about royalty.
As a _child_ ...yes. Wouldn't that also be the way a person hearing the
story at _any_ age would react, during the historical period in which it was
written?
Y: Only 'real' royalty has such powers, and since the
> people who are royal now are really royal, they too must have these
powers.
That's true...
Y: > Imagine living in the 17th century, hearing those tales, about the
magic
> powers of royalty. Imagine then that you 'see' things, you have the second
> sight. You're not royalty, you're a peasant girl, and thus a witch. Only
> 'royalty' is allowed to rightly have those special powers. So you either
> shut up about it, or end up labeled a witch, with all the consequences.
> Those things are not magic, those things are willful manipulations.
Yes! I can really see the warning implicit here, and I never looked at it
that way before...thanks again, Y! You're more creative in your thinking
than you give yourself credit for, I wager.
snip
Y: > Rumplestiltskin, a good tale about the power of Naming and dealing
with
> Middleworld spirits, Fairy (or Fey) folk and Green World powers. Don't
> really know about Rapunzel, but it sounds like the descend to an
> Otherworldly place to rescue a fertility goddess.
>
Nita: I think they inspired me later to thoroughly enjoy my first magic
set.
> So
> > I found myself as the only kid around who had a magic set that was
basic,
> > yet very well done & just right for a 10 yr. old. I had so very much
fun
> > doing magic shows for all my friends and my family!
clip
> it
> > and be right every time....wow, that was fun...this eventually led to
> lucid
> > dreaming, hypnosis and shamanic "magic".
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Nita
> Y: I must be boring everybody with all this talk about why I think
shamanism is
> so important to be properly explained and kept with integrity. But well,
you
> don't *have* to read it.
Hmmm. I don't think anyone is bored with your talk about the shamanic side
of fairy tales. On the contrary. I don't think though, that all fairy
tells are really about spirits, but some of them probably are. It would
seem many of the literary tales were intended for other purposes when they
were first written down, while folk tales passed on through the generations,
most likely had a much closer connection with the teachings about *spirits
of the Other World*. Perhaps there is some puzzlement about your focusing
on something that had nothing to do with my intent and question. I thought
your response was originally intended to reply to my question: What are the
shamanic elements to be found in fairy tales? I don't think I disparaged
anything by asking that question.
>
Y> You see Nita, you don't believe in Magic, at least you don't really
believe
> you *are doing* Magic.
If you had asked me, I would of told you that I've seen magic happen lots of
times, and sometimes I create the circumstances for it to take place. I
don't know where you got the impression, just because I'm able to speak with
psychological perspective at times, that it automatically excludes my belief
in magic or the witnessing of it. I guess you've never met a psychologist
who was also a shaman, right? They are out there, believe me, and I'm not
talking about myself! Open eyes up, Y! And, Y, I've only taken a few
courses of college-level psychol., otherwise it just that the field does
have some useful truths.
You're not 'royalty' after all, so it can't be that
> 'special power' only royalty has. Thing is though, I reckon you're unaware
> that most of the times, you actually *are* performing the real deal. You
> just don't realize it.
> Unfortunately, some of the things you say, some of the theories and
> explanations are exactly those given by people who *don't* do the real
deal.
? Your analysis is fine about the "royalty bit" but only if you take it
from the child's viewpoint, as that is your frame of reference. I asked a
question about shamanic elements in fairy tales, Y. So what if people don't
think I do the real deal. What motivates me to do my work isn't based on
popular opinion. I speak my mind just as you do.
.
> For them it's really only make-belief, slight of hand tricks and useful
> placebo imagination. It's kept at such a very low level of impact, mostly
at
> the easiest reachable edges of psychology, with a lot of psycho-babble to
> make it look realistic (to the gullible).
Say, there's always the phoney, no matter what field you're poking at Y, you
know that. If I use psych. terms, at times, it's because I'm very
comfortable with them, I've learned a great deal about people through
working with them for 8 years now, and am very thankful for what they teach
me when they come to me for help. Without their help and input, my training
in hypnotherapy wouldn't be enough, not by a long shot. However, I fully
recognize that I know little in reality about people, nor in the big picture
of things, not only about people, but the world, in general. But I truly
speak from what I think I know, and what I hope to be helpful, and I have
good intentions. If I speak in terms that offend you, it is not intended
that way by me, and I can't be responsible for your interpretations. As a
child, doing magician's tricks for the amusement of my friends, was a nice,
thrilling thing, and "slight of hand" would have a good meaning in my
context of a child's happiness with her first set of magic tricks. I'm
amazed at your projections of what you perceive as qualities in
others...exactly who? Do you know a lot of these people, are they real, or
figments of your imagination? Placebo effect is useful, but more than that,
it is the force associated with the success of some of the allopathics on
the market these days. You understand, I hope, that placebo was relayed
with disdain in my childhood and youth textbooks in school. However, this
effect has become much more scrutinized today, and is no longer said with
the stigma attributed to it as something like a sugar pill. On the
contrary, it is a magical force to be reckoned with and appreciated.
>
Y For me, I came to realize about our own magic tales through shamanism,
when
> I realized that the healing was the all-important, all-consuming be-all
and
> end-all of shamanism.
For many of the shamanic practitioners in America, ones I know, myself
included, are well aware of the many facets of shamanic practice, not only
in the classic sense, but in the modern neo-shamanic movement...divination;
communing with nature spirits; escorting the dead to their final resting
place, known as performing the specialty of the psychopomp; using power
stones or magical articles, spirit intrusion extraction. I still remain
fast in saying that a significant amount of focus in today's shamanic
practice is involved with the objective of helping others. Even
traditionally, often the shaman's work revolved around healing the sick in
body, mind or spirit. So is that saying that healing is everything, as you
would want to express as coming out of my mouth or others? Have I only
talked about healing? I don't think I've done more than...give it justice.
Y I simply don't see any other method of thought that in
> the West deals with the non-physical things like that. A system that
doesn't
> see dreams and characters in legend, dream, myth and fairy-tales as
> psycho-processes *only*. Our Western Society did it's best to erradicate
> this extra reality, or para-reality. And now we got a great many of
> parapsychologist running around, who say they're involved with the 'magic'
> of life, but who are doing the exact same thing.
Eye....I do feel your intent here, and I lament some of the same things you
do, believe it or not. Metaphysics has always dealt with non-physical
reality in the West. I'm going to do my "healings" for free as a community
service next March 23rd, at the Festival of Lights, Falls Church Marriot
Hotel. It is a metaphysical event, a one-of-a kind here in my neighborhood
of Northern VA. I see about 21 people during the show, for only about 10
mins. I take them into another world first through experiencing the energy
from my hands into their "third eye" (this IS a metaphysical event:) then I
have the person move it where it will be of most benefit....wind up with
finding a power stone for them from my mesa, held in their hand, open the
way for the person to receive a message through any of their senses, of
value to take back with them into this life. Last time, I wanted to make
sure that I was helping people, and I found that I came home with 16
testimonials. Also, some people signed up on the schedule who I'd seen at
last year's festival, because they had received benefits from it....shrug.
I regret if my emphasis on healing disturbs--it's what the focus of my
particular work is all about.
> We are actively pursuing and erradicating all our connections to the
mundane
> magic of Other Worlds and their inhabitants. To me, every shamanist that
> claims that power animals are neat symbols for their state of mind or of
> parts of personality, seems to me to be killing that same spirit. At the
> very mildest, it's ignoring the reality that there are other life forms
> besides your own physical self, or other physical beings.
I have respect for the inner and outer realms that contain spirits...shrug.
I don't agree that because a practioner says that the spirits are inside
their mind, that it takes away the power of their helping spirits. It is
not up to you or I to decide that anyway. Not judge others so harshly. I
don't see if a practitioner believes that his power animals are part of his
personality, that he couldn't also believe in spirits outside of himself at
the same time. At the same time, I don't see a problem if a shamanist
believes that _all_ spirits are outside the mind. It's their business, not
mine, anyway.
> I just strongly feel that we cannot afford to ignore that any longer. If
we
> do, we run a good chance us all ending up as non-physical,
> blown-ourselves-up-into-tiny-little-bits spirits.
>
> Y
I might have agreed with a lot more with what you said, if your finger
hadn't been pointed at me so much, Y. I think the only way to persuade
others to your point of view, is simply to set an example, set out to
persuade through the merits of your thoughts and reason and experience,
leaving room for many points of view. Getting others to see your point of
view doesn't come from being overly judgemental, or being narrow-minded...
but letting the merits stand on their own, of good intent, and without the
cheap shots. Where you gave much about the elements of shamanism, it was
very much appreciated.
And please, if you have anything to reply to, please just cut back most of
what I've said, no need to drag this conversation into an even longer
thread...thanks.
Nita
Nita Byrd
Nita Byrd
message, one here...shrug.
Nita
Azathool
> My apologies, somehow my PC kicked out duplicate posts, one as an original
> message, one here...shrug.
>
> Nita
<paraphrasing> Maybe it was the cyberspace vaettirs who did it <grin> Interesting
reply though and good food for thoughts from both posters
SilverSong
while
"Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:b0tl8v$kc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > Going to get it serious again, because I find this exactly a prime
example
> > of what is 'wrong' with our present day society.
>
> What? (scratches head) Classic fairy tales written and collected by the
> great literary scholars of the 19th Century, such as Brothers Grimm and
Hans
> Christian Anderson, are MADE of literary substance, which in themselves
can
> be identified with human nature and archetypes that are universally
> familiar...shrug. You chose to focus on my thoughts by making a sweeping
> generalization degrading the psychological aspects of literary "stuff",
the
> literary backdrop and motives for the telling of these tales by these
> authors. The psychological is just one perspective, lad, whether you
> personally agree or not. Taken what I said above out of the context of my
> sincere question to the members here about what shamanic elements can they
> find in classic fairy tales, was quite uncalled for.
Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that you were doing what I was describing as
what is 'wrong'. Your thoughts were what I jumped from and took as base to
go on with the ideas I have about Western Society as grossly generalized
whole, but really, it wasn't meant to illustrate how you did the same thing.
And you know, I'm not degrading the psychology, nor the aspects. I will say
that in psychology there is a dead end, something like the reflections of a
pool's surface being treated as a whole world on it's own, not acknowledging
the existence of both worlds above and below the surface. But that's really
all I was saying, the fact that if the tales are *only* focused on *one* of
those worlds, there can be a big problem.
> These "fairy stories"
> were meant to have psychological levels or layers of meaning, to be
suitable
> for all ages, whether you approve or not, Yerune. Children are amused and
> enchanted with them, I know I was. But the authors also intended their
> tales for adults and the sometimes serious moral lessons imbedded within
> them, perhaps even as he or she read the tale to their youngsters.
I know, you'll never hear me discredit this fact, or deny that it's there.
What I was saying though is that the tales aren't *only* meant to have
psychological representational aspects, or that this is the *only* thing
they are about. But still this is the only aspect of it that is the best
know application of those tales, the rest is usually disregarded.
> So it is quite possible to project all kinds of
> perspectives onto a fairy tale: literary, psychological, gestalt, moral,
> even shamanic elements, I suspect...but how many know that this tale,
> according to the author, was based on his own life?
Project on the tale, or as effect of the tale?
And you know as well as others here that some tales, even though you may
write them as symbolic autobiography, are inspired by something outside of
yourself. Transcending the personal history and able to overlap and connect
to far more interpersonal concepts.
> Yerune: Yet this is only a so very small part of what is 'out there',
what
> is
> > happening. I find it a terrible waste if tales, fairy tales or myths,
are
> > only taken in a context of psychological interpretation.
>
> I agree.
Really lass, that's the main point I was trying to get across, with your
post as starting-point, or inspiration.
> Although I shy away from "globular reasoning" so to help prevent myself
from
> putting my own bias out upon the world:), I hope you don't see my few
casual
> thoughts, coming from my background as a hypnotherapist, and a few
> observations, as one who fits that description--an "obsession to
> mentalize....nearly everything". You did, after all, point your finger at
> what I'd said, to represent "what is wrong" (the psychological view).
No, I didn't see your remarks or even you doing that mentalizing thing. I
wasn't pointing the finger and show "Hey, here's one, she's a good example
of what is wrong with it".
I don't even think the psychological aspect is wrong, by itself. It's when
it's taken as the only thing, that's when I think it's wrong.
> In fact, I would have gone back to college if I thought the field of
> psychology was going to give me a _lot of help_ in my practice, but I've
not
> had a lot of reason to believe that. However, the idea of being a better
> counselor appeals to me, and certainly some of what psychology teaches
will
> help me recognize more about human nature. It would be a great help for
the
> interview section of my session, for one thing. A good understanding of
> psychology, or behavior of the mind, has always been "owned" by the
shaman.
Agreed, and I'm thinking of the same thing. But that's a good point as well.
In the 'old days' the shaman may have been the psychologist and therapist,
but we have developed specialists now. And while they are severly lacking in
some area's, they've made tremendous progress in others. Neurology is a
blooming field, and it can greatly explain symptoms, causes and find
treatments for people. Couple that with psychology and you'll get a far more
coherent picture of the way the human mind and personality operates and
works.
Present day psychology isn't the be-all and end-all, but it's a field with a
great deal of information and expertise, something a shaman would be
hard-pressed to match. And that, to me anyway, is exactly the point. Where
psychology won't look, the shaman has set up his home base. A psychologist
isn't trained to do a shaman's job, not anymore. And a shaman isn't trained
(and especially not legally qualified) to do a psychologists job.
In other words, we got the psycho-neurological stuff well covered, we don't
need a shamanic or even transpersonal spirituality in order to deal with it.
The brain is being mapped out and explored, and although some of the roads
are misrepresented and some of the wells and springs aren't included on this
map, it serves well enough on one level. The shaman however explores and
travels the area's not covered with that map.
So, that's the main problem I have when the shaman tries to operate in the
same field as the psychologist. Not only isn't he qualified to do so,
legally and all, but it's an area where without the trials to go through in
order to get those qualifications, he'll never get the same level of
expertise as a psychologist. Biggest question is then, if a shaman(ist)
becomes a psychologist, works in that same area, is he then still working as
a shamanist, or as a psychologist?
And the more the focus is on psychology, the more books there are written
about just this aspect of it, the more people will shamanize in order to be
able to perform pop-psychology. Shamanism will then be a way to 'better
yourself and understand yourself better'. Nothing wrong with that, really.
But what happens then with the area's that are no longer addressed. With the
spirits of the dead and dying. With the pieces of soul that are shattered
and can't be brought back by therapeutic counseling? Who will coax the sun
to rise in the morning with a ritual, so the people will *feel* the sun
rising within themselves, instead of merely registring that it has become
daytime? Who will be the spokesperson for the Animal Kingdoms, the Plant
Realms? Who will commune with the spirits, give them attention and chat with
the ancestors?
That's basically my main concern. Through shamanism, there is a role and a
function, and in the very least an acknowledgement of these things. Should
shamanism be a layman's and new agy method to traverse the same path
psychology does, than who will cover the grounds that this leaves empty,
barren and neglected?
> The third category, outside the mind spirits: The other spirits exist
> independently, completely outside of myself, and have nothing to do with
> what I think or do not think. This makes my world full of magic. I never
> know what meeting or experience on the spiritual side, is just around the
> bend on the road of my life. They are external spirits and are to be found
> everywhere one wants to look, or know, or sense or hear or feel. They
don't
> come from the imagination, they exist entirely on their own. I don't
> attract spirits that expect bargains or have sinister auras, simply
because
> I don't look for them, aren't interested in setting up alliances with
them.
> This is my discernment, it may not be yours or another practitioners
> experience.
Consider how you got to know your Apu. Psychology didn't help much in that
area, right? It was something that could or would fall under the umbrella
term of shamanism. So what if Western Shamanism develops and progresses, as
I reckon it's doing today, into disregarding these things? When it's only
emphasis is self-awareness, self-realization and self-empowerment?
You realize there are spirits out there with less than nice intent towards
people or other living beings. Do you think psychology alone, or the current
Western Mindset is able to deal with that? It's not even acknowledged that
it exists? What field of expertise, besides the clergical religion, deals
with demons and bad spirits?
> Real magic? Heh, NLP is a type of hypnosis, and I've experienced it as a
> kind of magic for my clients, anyway.
Aye, real magic. Not only personal, but covering more than that.
> Yeah. some of the jargon
> is enough to make you P.... but I always look to the essence of what
> teachings are in anything, and cull out what rings true for me...what I
can
> work with. I think, as you've stated before, in one of your posts Y,
that
> if we were to talk all this out in _real time_ we'd come to agreements, as
> we always have.
But we're lucky enough to not only have a method of communication, but we
actually *do* communicate. Books don't let you question them as much. A
charismatic workshop teacher won't usually let you strongly question his or
her methods and intent either. "Take it or leave it." Problem is, there are
plenty of people who will 'take it' and don't question.
I mean, I cull things like you do, most people here do that I reckon. But a
lot of people don't, perhaps too desperate to find satisfaction or whatever.
> I asked a simple
> question about the shamanic elements, because I'm interested in learning
> about them, as a perspective to all the other ways of "seeing". Folk
tales
> that are told by the people, in a person to person way, I think, are what
> you're really getting at more than the literary considerations. I suspect
> that not only the literary creations, but indigenous and country folk
tales
> and sagas contain a wealth of shamanic elements
I'm sorry if it looked I was biting your head off.
> Notice Y, you can't help but bring psychology and politics (satire being
the
> engine of the tale) as perspectives along with shamanic views as valid
> points of reference:) Tales can't but help reflect human flaws and give
> psychological insights to our own behavior through animals' thoughts.
> Haven't shamans always been deeply associated with understanding animals
and
> their behaviors, as well as their fellow human beings?
True. But you went on with exactly the kind of thing that I usually see
missing when fairy tales are discussed.
The fox is cunning
> and a trickster. The tales told by the early shamans probably always were
a
> means to pass along their unique cultural heritage, but they were also
> teaching tales, that taught alot by indirect association through animal
> stories where they talked like humans (sorry, couldn't help but put in a
> psych. term, because that best explains it, IMO:)
Could it be that the tales are not only about human aspects drawn,
examplified and symbolified in animal speak, but that these tales are very
much about our own, cultural spirit animals? That these tales are as much
teaching tales about us as a society, but that they also tell you about what
we've come to name Power Animals?
That means that on one hand the tales are about human motives, but there's
another hand to it, and that's the one that describes the qualities of our
native spirits. See what I mean about only one side getting attention and
focus?
> Ah, so now Fairy Tales are....really about _spirits_ and all the other
> stuff, like insights into human nature, especially our flaws, politics,
> satire, serious moral teachings as well as children's amusement are
> insignificant to what is _real_--spirits? I'm sorry, I regret that I
can't
> view it that way.
How about both views?
> Well, you're really pointing out how each person, upon reading a story,
> can't help but identify with the characters based on his own life
> experiences. You're saying that there was less magic, than there was
kingly
> politics behind many of the fairy tales, especially "The Princess and the
> Pea" story. It's surely plain to see that folk tales and their objectives
> are different in various phases of human history, and vary from each
creator
> of those tales in purpose.
Problem with orally transmitted tales, is that it's almost impossible in all
case to attribute a creator to it. At best you can attribute the first
person who put it in writing, but not as author. Neither is there a real
'pure' form of those tales, there are many versions and differences, none
being better or worse than the other. That's one way of keeping them alive.
Putting them down on paper is a good way of killing them, even though it's
the best way of preserving them in rough times.
But tales change with times and society, and the nobility only had limited
say in what the country folk were passing as tales. Yet if they managed to
influence those tales, it would strenghten their position as nobility.
So what I mean is that some tales, especially where it's about royalty and
special powers, the tales were artificially twisted slightly. Perhaps to
make them more palpable to the ruling classes so they could survive, or
perhaps to make them more beneficial to the royal classes.
> As a _child_ ...yes. Wouldn't that also be the way a person hearing the
> story at _any_ age would react, during the historical period in which it
was
> written?
Aye. See the point I was trying to make above?
> Yes! I can really see the warning implicit here, and I never looked at it
> that way before...thanks again, Y! You're more creative in your thinking
> than you give yourself credit for, I wager.
> snip
Heh, I don't think I'll need credit for it, it's rough enough as it is.
> I thought
> your response was originally intended to reply to my question: What are
the
> shamanic elements to be found in fairy tales? I don't think I disparaged
> anything by asking that question.
Some of what I said was in response to that, aye. But it was also a good
jumping point to illustrate the one-sidedness our present society expresses
towards those tales.
> I guess you've never met a psychologist
> who was also a shaman, right? They are out there, believe me, and I'm not
> talking about myself! Open eyes up, Y! And, Y, I've only taken a few
> courses of college-level psychol., otherwise it just that the field does
> have some useful truths.
Heh, Lass, I don't think they exist. Perhaps a psychologist with some
shamanistic or animistic beliefs, or a shamanist with a degree in psychology
to back up the sessions and consultations. But not both, it's two too
different playing fields to be doing at the same time.
Y > > Unfortunately, some of the things you say, some of the theories and
> > explanations are exactly those given by people who *don't* do the real
> deal.
>
> ? Your analysis is fine about the "royalty bit" but only if you take it
> from the child's viewpoint, as that is your frame of reference. I asked
a
> question about shamanic elements in fairy tales, Y. So what if people
don't
> think I do the real deal. What motivates me to do my work isn't based on
> popular opinion. I speak my mind just as you do.
Not meant as criticism towards you. I mean, I can't really believe a person
who says he's shamanising, but who treats the tale of Little Red Ridinghood
as a tale of the human mind only. Even a guided visualisation into the tale
will let you see and experience that there is far more to it than just that.
Let alone coming into contact with the spirit of the Wolf, or the
Lumberjack/Hunter, or even LRR herself.
Now, I fully believe you are a person who does enter a tale like that, and
gets more out of it than the average listener or reader of said tale. All
there is to it is that if you said something like : "this is a psycholigical
aspect of the tale", I added that there is more to it than just that. Simply
because I've seen and heard too many people keep it at that one statement
alone. So no criticisement towards you, rather to people who really keep it
only at that one aspect.
> But I truly
> speak from what I think I know, and what I hope to be helpful, and I have
> good intentions. If I speak in terms that offend you, it is not intended
> that way by me, and I can't be responsible for your interpretations.
That's why I respect you so much. And it's mutual, I don't intend to offend
you either.
> For many of the shamanic practitioners in America, ones I know, myself
> included, are well aware of the many facets of shamanic practice, not only
> in the classic sense, but in the modern neo-shamanic
movement...divination;
> communing with nature spirits; escorting the dead to their final resting
> place, known as performing the specialty of the psychopomp; using power
> stones or magical articles, spirit intrusion extraction. I still remain
> fast in saying that a significant amount of focus in today's shamanic
> practice is involved with the objective of helping others.
Great. Really, I mean that. It's very different from some of the expo's I
went to, and in fact, this is the thing I'm fighting/struggling/working for.
> Even
> traditionally, often the shaman's work revolved around healing the sick in
> body, mind or spirit. So is that saying that healing is everything, as
you
> would want to express as coming out of my mouth or others? Have I only
> talked about healing? I don't think I've done more than...give it
justice.
You haven't only talked about healing, never said you did.
> Eye....I do feel your intent here, and I lament some of the same things
you
> do, believe it or not. Metaphysics has always dealt with non-physical
> reality in the West.
I believe it. And while I do realize that physics (which to me includes
psychology) and meta or non-physics are getting mixed more and more because
the distinct barriers that we believed to exist are found to be far less
rigid than we imagined, I still firmly belief that untill either the
meta-physical community is expert on both fields, or the physical community,
neither one should claim home ground on foreign soil.
> I have respect for the inner and outer realms that contain
spirits...shrug.
> I don't agree that because a practioner says that the spirits are inside
> their mind, that it takes away the power of their helping spirits. It is
> not up to you or I to decide that anyway. Not judge others so harshly. I
> don't see if a practitioner believes that his power animals are part of
his
> personality, that he couldn't also believe in spirits outside of himself
at
> the same time. At the same time, I don't see a problem if a shamanist
> believes that _all_ spirits are outside the mind. It's their business,
not
> mine, anyway.
True, but we're living also in a world of information. There are people who
take up the teacher's role after a few years of experience, and some of them
are very rigid in their idea that the spirits are only mindtricks, useful,
but still tricks. They teach this stuff. Then there are many who teach
shamanism as a primary pseudo-psycho way of healing issues.
And then that becomes everybody's bussiness, including yours.
> I might have agreed with a lot more with what you said, if your finger
> hadn't been pointed at me so much, Y.
Well, I know we agree on many things, but not on this, I didn't point my
finger at you, certainly not to show any 'fault'.
> And please, if you have anything to reply to, please just cut back most of
> what I've said, no need to drag this conversation into an even longer
> thread...thanks.
Heh, I did my best :)
Be Well,
Y
Nick Argall
thread in a very appropriate way.
"Nita Byrd" <nita...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:b0qsvp$3kb$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Di wrote:
> > It is important to not dismiss divination out of hand just because one
> > particular way doesn't work for a particular individual. And while I
feel
> I
> > can recommend certain methods, I think it is an extremely personal
matter.
> > Anything I feel resonance with may be totally dead to somebody else.
I this was something I was doing. I've used methods of divination before,
and they would even produce useful results, and yet, I would feel wrong, so
I stopped.
> Well done, Dianne! The pendulum with chain or string end wrapped around
the
> forefinger, hovering above a Chevraul's Chart (a circle with a cross
> intersection to indicate a movement of the pendulum, say, horizontally to
> indicate a "yes" to a question, with "no" movement going up and down on
the
> vertical line.
When I was sixteen, the girl I was seeing at the time persuaded me to do an
exercise with a pendulum. The purpose of the exercise was to identify my
spirit guide. The answer that came was that I didn't have one. Nobody in
the room was suprised.
> I also use stones that attract me that I find on walks in the woods where
I
> live, for divination, for another if needed. I use the Harner method for
> this. I have on occasion, used the same simple law of attraction, to
using
> them as healing stones for myself by ritual of a fire going in the
> fireplace. Other power stones I brought back with me from Peru-- places
> such as Inka temples and ruins, river banks, on mountains and in caves,
> wherever my group joined together for rituals, ceremonies and teachings in
> the Andean spirit traditions of Peru.
I've had a growing desire over the last few days to acquire some uncut gem
stones, quartz, that sort of thing. There are new-age shops that sell them
quite cheaply, and I figure I may as well start hunting there before trying
more difficult methods. There's a lot of synchronicity at work with that
too.
> Lucida, the I Ching works well for you, I wish you continued success with
> it.
>
> Nick, while looking for your job, keep your spirit aglow through letting
the
> creative juices flow.
>
> Sending intent that you'll acquire a new job soon, and with so many other
> strong intents here, you're going to attract that next job:).
I got the position description for this job on Friday (it was first
advertised Thursday):
An exciting opportunity exists for a Senior Programmer / IT Manager with
strong project management and team leadership skills who is responsible for
strategic planning and management of four staff within the Department.
It's a job I'm qualified for, that pays at the same level as what I was
doing for, with an extremely prestigious organization, reporting to a man
whose bio suggests that he is a genuine thinker and achiever. And I made a
good first impression with the HR department. (Then worked until 5am
Saturday morning on my application.)
Even if I don't get the job, it's reassuring to see that these jobs do exist
out there. Of course, I intend to get it.
Nick
Nick Argall
> I don't see this as expecting people not to bring desires and
> expectations. Rather, to me, it is acknowledging them as just that-
> desires and expectations and not the "thing" itself. It is also about
> keeping context. Without context it is meaningless.
And some other really good things about context as well.
> >Hence the importance of self-awareness.
>
> Never a bad thing, just be aware that it does not make you infallible
> or invincible. Just better prepared to deal with the consequences.
Charlotte Joko Beck made some wonderful observations using a metaphor about
hangliding in a tornado. When total annihilation is accepted as inevitable,
you may as well learn to enjoy the spectacular view.
> >Hence, there is no "thing", just the various versions of the "thing" that
> >different people create for themselves.
>
> And now we get to the point where we decide just how much of the
> original "thing" these new "things" must contain to be considered
> similar. That is nowhere I want to go at this hour of the morning. Or
> ever, for that matter. Very tricky ground here.
Restoring the context (in which the "thing" is shamanism), Harner actually
did write wonderful stuff on this subject, but you have to read pages 40-46
of _The Way of the Shaman_, not just the bit on page 45 where he says "If
you succeed in experiencing the first three phases listed above, however,
you can probably call yourself a shaman," or page 44 where he says "Shamans
have to be able to journey back and forth between realities in these healing
tasks."
It's important to recognize that Harner (and I understand Eliade, but
haven't read Eliade for myself yet) regards shamanism as a universal
principle that is embodied in different ways in different contexts. The
variety of incarnations of shamanism means that while one incarnation might
be a bat, and another a starfish, there is something about them that makes
them both animals and not plants.
Because the thingness we are referencing incarnates in so many ways, I don't
beleive there is any shame in saying "The 'Western School' of Shamanism is
devoted to healing humans" There's plenty of humans that need healing.
There would be a very great shame in saying "Guiding the spirits of dead
animals is not a proper thing for a shaman to do" but nobody's saying that
(that I know of).
> I consider myself a pagan, and a witch. Now, explaining that is a
> trick when you want to maintain context. I am not Wiccan, even though
> there is much in my practice and belief system that is rooted in it.
> However, while I do have some Wiccan elements, I do not feel that who
> and what I am follows closely enough to what I perceive constitutes
> "Wicca" to say that I practice it.
> However, using broader definitions and lowercase letters, I am
> comfortable enough that I can use pagan and witch to describe me,
> although I acknowledge that even within those categories, it is a
> loose fit.
> Sometimes labels are needed for basic conversational shorthand, but,
> they are also pretty sticky if you want to be sincere about them, and
> keep it all in context. And to me, this is important. My path is my
> own. What I do is representative of me and no one else. I do not care
> to place words in the mouths of others, as that makes me responsible
> for them. So, I am pretty careful about what I claim to be.
> This is a very round about way of illustrating my feelings on taking
> care to preserve the context of a thing, as it helps in making the
> labels actually *mean* something when they have to be used.
Yes. (Well said.)
> >> Consider what you probably know of archery as a Zen art. Would you say
> >> that picking a target and aiming for it is likely to produce the most
> >> satisfactory results? Hmmmm.... So, would aiming at happiness as a
> >> target be any more successful? Just a thought.
> What I was driving art here, apparently far more clumsily than I had
> hoped, was the relative importance of the target to the archer and the
> bow and arrow. My take on this issue is that when the archer and the
> bow and arrow are - now words fail me, but I think you know what I
> mean... all I can say is "there." Then, the target does not matter. It
> will be found by the arrow. Arrrggggghhhh.... I hate when language
> betrays me. I hope you are better aware of my direction with this. I
> cannot, apparently, do any better just now.
*nods* Is OK. I've studied enough Zen that I think I know :)
But I actually had archery lessons once. The reality is that you have to
fire a lot of arrows and watch where they go before you learn to shoot
straight. And there is a subtle difference between aiming at the bullseye
and trying to make the arrow hit it. The first is good, the second is not.
> BTW, I am at the knowing I don't know stage, too. So, you are far from
> alone.
*grin*
Nick
Nick Argall
"Di-a-rama" <bro...@SPAM.com> wrote in message
I think it depends on the subject matter. And even gold medal ice skaters
would be conscious of their incompetence at spinning jumps with more than
four full rotations. (Whereas I am conscious of my incompetence at the
'staying upright' skill of ice-skating.)
Nick
Nick Argall
> I don't have much time, maybe this will be that way for a while yet. So
> that's my excuse for not responding much.
No excuses are nessecary, a brief response can be the soul of wit.
> "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:OTvX9.16795$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you
prefer
> > the emphasis be placed?
>
> As was said, the assumption and emphasis of healing as Core of western
> Shamanic magic or practice is healing. I don't dispute that we Western
folk
> need a lot of healing, but well, let's see if I can sum it up in this one
> quote:
>
> "We don't need to heal Mother Earth, we need to stop making Her ill"
Let's stop at this point, everything else you've said elaborates on it, I
think.
I agree with that point.
Now, given that we have a bunch of delusional self-mutilating children with
awesome tools of destruction in their hands, we need to come up with a plan
for getting them to stop blasting away at the earth. Getting these people
to understand nature is not the answer, IMO. Nature is harsh, has no
interest in fair play and does not come equipped with warning signs.
Expecting these children to get to know nature and like her immediately is
like expecting a paranoiac blinded by pain to establish a harmonious
relationship with Joseph Bearwalker - a tenuous hope, at best.
Better, IMO, to heal the children of their desire towards self-mutilation
and delusion. Only when they're not starving themselves, chopping their
bodies up to look different or subjecting themselves to the million other
tortures we have invented for ourselves is there any benefit in oneness with
nature.
In fact, you could say that these Westerners have already achieved a oneness
with nature. They regard it and themselves as fundamentally flawed things
that require outside intervention so that they can be fixed and made
worthwhile.
Nick
Nick Argall
> > who was also a shaman, right? They are out there, believe me, and I'm
not
> > talking about myself! Open eyes up, Y! And, Y, I've only taken a few
> > courses of college-level psychol., otherwise it just that the field does
> > have some useful truths.
>
> Heh, Lass, I don't think they exist. Perhaps a psychologist with some
> shamanistic or animistic beliefs, or a shamanist with a degree in
psychology
> to back up the sessions and consultations. But not both, it's two too
> different playing fields to be doing at the same time.
<quote >
<source title="The Way of the Shaman" author="Michael Harner">
The shaman moves between realities, a magical athlete of states of
consciousness engaged in mythic feats. The shaman is a middle man between
ordinary reality and nonordinary reality, as Castaneda has dramatically
described. The shaman is also a "power broker" in the sense of manipulating
spiritual power to help people, to put them into a healthy equilibrium.
</quote>
IMO, if a shaman couldn't reconcile the difference between training they had
received in psychology and shamanic traditions, they wouldn't be worth
asking for help.
Nick
Azathool
"Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:WxxY9.3475$7y2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:3e3029b1$0$136$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl...
> > I don't have much time, maybe this will be that way for a while yet. So
> > that's my excuse for not responding much.
>
> No excuses are nessecary, a brief response can be the soul of wit.
>
> > "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:OTvX9.16795$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >
> > > What's your problem with an emphassis on healing? Where would you
> prefer
> > > the emphasis be placed?
> >
> > As was said, the assumption and emphasis of healing as Core of western
> > Shamanic magic or practice is healing. I don't dispute that we Western
> folk
> > need a lot of healing, but well, let's see if I can sum it up in this one
> > quote:
> >
> > "We don't need to heal Mother Earth, we need to stop making Her ill"
>
> Let's stop at this point, everything else you've said elaborates on it, I
> think.
>
> I agree with that point.
>
> Now, given that we have a bunch of delusional self-mutilating children with
> awesome tools of destruction in their hands, we need to come up with a plan
> for getting them to stop blasting away at the earth.
Hmm.. how about introdicing them to "Quakeworld", or perhaps a game of "Serious
Sam"? It would satisfy their thirst for blood and destruction and not hurt anyone
in the making.
> Getting these people
> to understand nature is not the answer, IMO. Nature is harsh, has no
> interest in fair play and does not come equipped with warning signs.
Hmm.. actually I think nature comes with big signs of warnings. Colors, as well as
sticky things that愀 there to warn us to be careful. But it takes learning to read
the signs.
So in a sense maybe these kids you愉e describing is like doing the same with their
mutilation and trying to alter their appearances. They愉e sending out a message,
the trouble for us others maybe to lern how to interpret these.
> Expecting these children to get to know nature and like her immediately is
> like expecting a paranoiac blinded by pain to establish a harmonious
> relationship with Joseph Bearwalker - a tenuous hope, at best.
<LOL> Yes, "Master Estragon" can be difficult, but underneath all the grumpyness
he愀 just pure heart. <grin>
> Better, IMO, to heal the children of their desire towards self-mutilation
> and delusion. Only when they're not starving themselves, chopping their
> bodies up to look different or subjecting themselves to the million other
> tortures we have invented for ourselves is there any benefit in oneness with
> nature.
Well spoken. And in away it also supports my stand, which is following Yeroune愀,
that shamanism does not equal to healing. I said it before that I believe in the
expression that shamans aren愒 healers, they only set the stage, creates an
environment for healing to take place. I have still after 48 yrs of life not met
one who could heal another, but I have met a hord of people who has the ablity to
create the environment for it to happen.
Di-a-rama
_kxY9.3470$7y2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Nick Argall"
<nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes--I did not imply this was anything other than the "inner" knowledge of
spirit and one's relationship to the greater whole. If we're talking about
needing to learn a technology in order to complete a task, the progression
you mentioned may indeed come into play. However, I do believe there are
prodigies out there. Or people who seem to have a natural "talent" (for
lack of a better word) for certain things which propel them beyond the
ignorance & incompetence stages.
But since we were talking about divination, I figured it was understood that
I meant to refer to the natural ability which we all have but tend to
ignore.
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
%LwY9.3418$7y2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Nick Argall"
<nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> When I was sixteen, the girl I was seeing at the time persuaded me to do an
> exercise with a pendulum. The purpose of the exercise was to identify my
> spirit guide. The answer that came was that I didn't have one. Nobody in
> the room was suprised.
I am strongly drawn to the pendulum but have not had consistent results. I
think it's a very important tool for finding yes/no answers. The other
methods I use don't address this as well. Plus, you can use the pendulum
for geographic work not unlike the L-rods (which I'm totally hopeless at).
I think there are better divination methods to use for finding more
qualitative answers like identifying a power animal. Also, in Harner's
book, there is a method for retrieving a lost power animal (pp 76-86). I'm
not sure you can do it by yourself, however. Perhaps if you join a drumming
circle, etc., you can find someone to help you with it.
>
> I've had a growing desire over the last few days to acquire some uncut gem
> stones, quartz, that sort of thing. There are new-age shops that sell them
> quite cheaply, and I figure I may as well start hunting there before trying
> more difficult methods. There's a lot of synchronicity at work with that
> too.
The best place to get any gems, minerals or rocks is to go yourself into
nature and find the ones that 1) are free to leave (i.e. require very little
cutting, chipping or pulling to extract them) and 2) want to go home with
you. :) There are amateur geology clubs all over. You can either get
involved in one, or you can get books about which minerals are most
pervasive in your area and how to find & identify them. Or, you could just
go out and find a rock that attracts you. Sometimes they're as easy to find
as rock lying on the side of the road.
The second best way is to go to an expo or "gem & mineral show". You will
find a much larger selection at more reasonable prices than in a shop. You
have no control over the method of collection, but you will find things from
all over the world, and they may be less "man-handled".
Sometimes the shop is the only alternative. I've bought many stones at
these shops, but usually only small ones. They've been through a lot by the
time they get there and are fragmented and wounded. If you get them there,
it's always a good idea to do something to correct this issue.
Of course, all this assumes you want to get to know the stone and have a
possible magickal or shamanic purpose for bringing it into your life.
>
> Even if I don't get the job, it's reassuring to see that these jobs do exist
> out there. Of course, I intend to get it.
Well...best of luck!
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
<nita...@erols.com> wrote:
> I also use stones that attract me that I find on walks in the woods where I
> live, for divination, for another if needed. I use the Harner method for
> this. I have on occasion, used the same simple law of attraction, to using
> them as healing stones for myself by ritual of a fire going in the
> fireplace. Other power stones I brought back with me from Peru-- places
> such as Inka temples and ruins, river banks, on mountains and in caves,
> wherever my group joined together for rituals, ceremonies and teachings in
> the Andean spirit traditions of Peru.
The Harner method is great--I learned it last summer and was blown away. I
don't think it's in the book, though. I don't recall whether they told us
where it came from--whether it was learned through spirit contacts or
through the Jivaro cultural practices. Either way, I feel extremely
fortunate to have learned it...
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
3498-3E3...@storefull-2194.public.lawson.webtv.net,
"Sloop...@webtv.net" <Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote:
> Bead shops and rock shops can really hang me up.....its awful......I'm
> fascinated by the colors, I'm fascinated by the forms......I have to
> pick them all up, hold them in my hands, I can be a real mess! Jewelry
> stores use to trip me up too....all those pretty colored stones flashing
> brightly.....Unfortunately, I know more about precious stones than I do
> about making money so I had to stop wondering into _those_
> stores...lol....
What an image you have put in my head!! LOL!
I turn into putty, too, but not so much around cut gemstones. I usually
feel really sad in the new age shops, though. As I already said in another
post, the little tumbled rocks seem so fragmented and wounded. I think it's
because they are extracted, broken and tumble polished so arbitrarily.
When I went to New Mexico last summer I was blown away by the geological
formations. I didn't take my usual portion of rocks from there <smile>. It
seemed almost blasphemous to do so. (Or rather, that they didn't want to
leave and go with me.) Instead, I went inside the rocks via canyons and
caves. BTW, did you know the formations there are partially volcanic?
Incredibly amazing! Soft volcanic layers mixed with harder layers. The
ancient natives dug out the soft layers to make cliff-side cave dwellings
and covered them with adobe structures.
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
1fdaec3.03012...@posting.google.com, "FLORA"
<floen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Di-a-rama <bro...@SPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:<BA5562A3.26251%bro...@SPAM.com>...
>> On 1/22/03 2:44 PM, in article
>> 14164-3E...@storefull-2191.public.lawson.webtv.net,
>> "Sloop...@webtv.net" <Sloop...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>>> ]Heh, so you like the Stone Folk or
>>> ]Pebble People :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh heh....yeah......we connect well....:-)
>>
>> So *THAT* is my problem...
>>
>> I was wondering why I always come back from vacations with 10 pounds of
>> rocks in my luggage. They are so much like kittens--how can you really not
>> take ALL of them home, especially when they keep mewing at you?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dianne
>
> I just pulled a rock out of my purse, that I picked up in Heidelburg,
> Germany, while I had visited the Shloss (castle) ruins. It is a
> pinkish quartz and it was very much as you say--mewing to come home
> with me. It now rides in my bag very happily, going where I go.
I don't know about others, but it seems to me the small stones are not
incomplete in any way. They seem like a "micro" version of their original
formations. Maybe in the same way that spirit animals represent their whole
species...
Cheers,
Dianne
SilverSong
> > Heh, Lass, I don't think they exist. Perhaps a psychologist with some
> > shamanistic or animistic beliefs, or a shamanist with a degree in
> psychology
> > to back up the sessions and consultations. But not both, it's two too
> > different playing fields to be doing at the same time.
>
> <quote >
> <source title="The Way of the Shaman" author="Michael Harner">
> The shaman moves between realities, a magical athlete of states of
> consciousness engaged in mythic feats. The shaman is a middle man between
> ordinary reality and nonordinary reality, as Castaneda has dramatically
> described. The shaman is also a "power broker" in the sense of
manipulating
> spiritual power to help people, to put them into a healthy equilibrium.
> </quote>
Middleman between ordinary and non-ordinary reality. There's a difference
between that and a psychologist. And while 'healthy' does imply healing, I
reckon 'equilibrium' shouldn't be ignored.
> IMO, if a shaman couldn't reconcile the difference between training they
had
> received in psychology and shamanic traditions, they wouldn't be worth
> asking for help.
As long as they don't tread in area's where they have no expertise. Meaning
a non-psycho trained shaman(ist) shouldn't deal with people in a
psycholigical way, and psychs shouldn't think they can explain everything a
shaman(ist) does.
I mean, for example, consider the effect of a spirit animal working on your
behalf as power animal. You could keep it at the psych level and focus on
what it does and represents in the personality and psyche, and that's fine.
You can also see it as a strict seperate entity, and deal with it
accordingly. That's fine as well. It's not that you're looking at the same
thing exactly, but more you're looking at different effects on different
fields or levels coming from a more or less same cause or origin.
With our 'mundane' understanding of psychology it's usual for a shamanist to
see it as a overlapping of both. I think that's one of the powers and
Qualities of Western Neo-Shamanism. It's also a very luring trap, easily
misguiding to mistake the one for the other, the psychological for the
non-ordinary or Otherworldly reality.
I mean, personally I've come to experience that all the non-physical stuff,
like thoughts and personality traits are Otherworldy. I don't recommend that
experience to anyone though, it can be rather unsettling. But psychology is
still a great way and method to deal with the expressions of that
Otherworldly stuff as it's extending over to the physical mind and
brainmatter.
In the end though, it matters for the client what is more efficient and
practical. If there is a problem with how a Power Animal appears, then one
needs to look at a way of dealing with it. Either it's, for example, dealing
with trauma's and issues from childhood, or it's establishing a link and
open up a communication with the spirit in question.
I just don't think a psychologist should seek to reconcile the difference of
opinion a pissed off Power Animal has with his client, or a shamanist trying
to explain in Freudian or Jungian terms what childhood experience lead to
this Power Animal being pissed off.
Y
SilverSong
> It's important to recognize that Harner (and I understand Eliade, but
> haven't read Eliade for myself yet) regards shamanism as a universal
> principle that is embodied in different ways in different contexts. The
> variety of incarnations of shamanism means that while one incarnation
might
> be a bat, and another a starfish, there is something about them that makes
> them both animals and not plants.
I think that's one of the best ways of putting it I heard yet.
> Because the thingness we are referencing incarnates in so many ways, I
don't
> beleive there is any shame in saying "The 'Western School' of Shamanism is
> devoted to healing humans" There's plenty of humans that need healing.
> There would be a very great shame in saying "Guiding the spirits of dead
> animals is not a proper thing for a shaman to do" but nobody's saying that
> (that I know of).
Well, let's run this past your analogy. Western School Shamanism is an
incarnation, right? Let's say it's like a cat. A cat is an animal, a mammal
even, feline to more precise. So this cat is an incarnation of shamanism.
But now turn it around, is every cat shamanism incarnated because it's an
animal and not a plant? What about a dog? If only cats are considered
shamanism incarnated, is that dog than not about shamanism?
In other words, it can go a bit like this: shamanism is a 'thing', and in
the West it's mostly about healing. Stands to reason than that if something
like it here in the West isn't focused on healing, it's not of the same
thing. The 'label' is already taken, and defined by the contents and context
of healing and personal development.
Y
Di-a-rama
3e32dbb2$0$124$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl, "SilverSong"
<Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> As long as they don't tread in area's where they have no expertise. Meaning
> a non-psycho trained shaman(ist) shouldn't deal with people in a
> psycholigical way, and psychs shouldn't think they can explain everything a
> shaman(ist) does.
If you're going to say a psychologist can't be a shaman, you might as well
say that any and all other occupations cannot be shamans. Given that there
is no occupation of shaman to aspire to in our society, I don't know how
else people would be able to practice except under the umbrella of an allied
vocation.
Cheers,
Dianne
Di-a-rama
<bro...@SPAM.com> wrote:
That is, unless they do it "on the side". Sorry I left it out...
Cheers,
Dianne
SilverSong
>
> "SilverSong" <Silverson...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:3e3029b1$0$136$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl...
> > I don't have much time, maybe this will be that way for a while yet. So
> > that's my excuse for not responding much.
>
> No excuses are nessecary, a brief response can be the soul of wit.
Yeal, but my on-line time is coming it brief bursts now, quite inconsistent
as well. Can't rightly keep up with all the mails as well as I could before.
> > "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:OTvX9.16795$m47....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > "We don't need to heal Mother Earth, we need to stop making Her ill"
>
> Let's stop at this point, everything else you've said elaborates on it, I
> think.
Aye.
> I agree with that point.
>
> Now, given that we have a bunch of delusional self-mutilating children
with
> awesome tools of destruction in their hands, we need to come up with a
plan
> for getting them to stop blasting away at the earth. Getting these people
> to understand nature is not the answer, IMO. Nature is harsh, has no
> interest in fair play and does not come equipped with warning signs.
This is precicely why coming to understand nature is so important. Because
nature isn't harh, uninterested in fair play and really has some potent
warning signs. Thing is, we don't see it because we think our artificially
created rules don't 'agree' with them.
Global warming, more so than is considered to be natural. Soil beginning to
get poor, because we're fucking up the dynamics of it. And it's not harsh,
it's just more direct and doesn't care about political correctness at all.
You try kicking a bear in the nuts and you'll know what I mean. The fairness
of the whole system is that it actually *works*. Lions and other
pack-hunting animals always go for the weak and ill. Easy pickings. But if
they didn't, the ill would likely contaminate the rest of the prey-herd, and
they won't survive a serious drought, killing both all the herd as well as
the lions.
> Expecting these children to get to know nature and like her immediately is
> like expecting a paranoiac blinded by pain to establish a harmonious
> relationship with Joseph Bearwalker - a tenuous hope, at best.
Despite what you may think nature is obligated to do for us, bottomline
remains that you and I are fertilizer.
> Better, IMO, to heal the children of their desire towards self-mutilation
> and delusion. Only when they're not starving themselves, chopping their
> bodies up to look different or subjecting themselves to the million other
> tortures we have invented for ourselves is there any benefit in oneness
with
> nature.
I'm not really sure to who you're refering, but if you meant our current
youth, with the tribal tendency for body piercing and tattoos, I don't worry
about that. I worry about the so-called adults who developed sophisticated
ways of grand-scale self-mutilation.
Aza made a great point as well, with correlating the striking colors of some
kids's hair and clothing and the warning colors on some animals (if I
understood correctly). At least they are reacting to their enviroment and
emotions, us (and I'll loosely include myself) 'adults' are rather number.
Instead of reacting, we try to dominate and control.
But it's a fine goal if that's what you're setting out to do.
> In fact, you could say that these Westerners have already achieved a
oneness
> with nature. They regard it and themselves as fundamentally flawed things
> that require outside intervention so that they can be fixed and made
> worthwhile.
Nature isn't flawed, our idea of it is. And while we haven't reached that
cognitive oneness with nature yet, I also think we're not that far removed
from it actually. I've come to realize that rather recently, but I've seen
some really fluent works of artificial landscaping that, to me at least, had
a quaint natural feel to it. But that could be me, since I live on a land
that's practically hand-made since the start of human colonisation. What I
mean is that we do have a sense of beauty, and to me, if beauty can be seen
and felt in the natural world, that's communication and an acknowledgement
of the natural world and her laws and rules.
Y
SilverSong
"Di-a-rama" <bro...@SPAM.com> wrote in message
Heh, that's precisely the point.
We don't have a role for 'the shaman', whatever our name for it is. Trying
to make the term stick under the guise and association of another vocation
won't make up for the things that remain lacking when we do it like that.
Suppose we say our psychotherapists, counselors, alternative healers, trance
mediums and herbal remedists are our 'shamans', who then is to make the
bridge between the Other worlds?
You're right, we hardly have any role that fits the role of the shaman in
most aspects, while we got some shamanic aspects covered in other allied
vocations as you put it. But that still leaves out a lot of the community
stuff and the relaying of the ancestral memories and pressence.
I mean, and I hope Apu Kuntur will forgive me for pointing to him as
example, but how many counselors do you think will actually spent months and
months making a costume from feathers and dressing the part of their closest
spirit ally? Even 'on the side'?
Basically I mean to say two things;
the first is that there are less favourable aspects of shamanism that are
largely ignored by the eclectic mix'n'match attitude of present day
spiritual folk. And these aspects don't show in any other spiritual system I
know of, important aspects.
Secondly, the thing that makes something shamanism are things that are on a
field that's (currently) outside modern science, including the health
sciences. Those sciences have great expertise and a wealth of knowledge, and
the disciples of those disciplines work extremely hard to gain their
expertise in those areas. Spirit talk won't cut it in there. Psycho-babble,
educated or otherwise won't cut it with spirit talk in the area's a shaman
is active at.
So all in all, if you want to take the psychological perspective, you got to
be prepared to take the courses of that field, and maybe use a shamanistic
perspective on the side. Won't be less effective, I reckon, but you still
got to realize that you're not dealing with the whole picture.
Same way a shamanist taking up psychology on the side, he or she isn't
looking at the whole picture either. I just don't think it's a good idea for
either of them to say that they are looking at exactly the same things just
name it differently, because I feel, experience, that they're not.
Y
Joseph B. Wilson
wrote:
It is in the book, though maybe not in as complete detail as it is in
the workshop.
Joseph
-
Joseph Bearwalker Wilson, Owit-towit-tai-at
Shamanist Resources: http://www.shamanist.net/
Action is the most sincere form of prayer.
Nick Argall
>
> "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:EhxY9.3466$7y2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > It's important to recognize that Harner (and I understand Eliade, but
> > haven't read Eliade for myself yet) regards shamanism as a universal
> > principle that is embodied in different ways in different contexts. The
> > variety of incarnations of shamanism means that while one incarnation
> might
> > be a bat, and another a starfish, there is something about them that
makes
> > them both animals and not plants.
>
> I think that's one of the best ways of putting it I heard yet.
Woohoo!
*strut*
*grin*
> > Because the thingness we are referencing incarnates in so many ways, I
> don't
> > beleive there is any shame in saying "The 'Western School' of Shamanism
is
> > devoted to healing humans" There's plenty of humans that need healing.
> > There would be a very great shame in saying "Guiding the spirits of dead
> > animals is not a proper thing for a shaman to do" but nobody's saying
that
> > (that I know of).
>
> Well, let's run this past your analogy. Western School Shamanism is an
> incarnation, right? Let's say it's like a cat. A cat is an animal, a
mammal
> even, feline to more precise. So this cat is an incarnation of shamanism.
> But now turn it around, is every cat shamanism incarnated because it's an
> animal and not a plant? What about a dog? If only cats are considered
> shamanism incarnated, is that dog than not about shamanism?
Let's see now. Given that a dog is an animal, and so is a cat, if a cat is
shamanism that's about healing, let's say a dog is shamanism that's about
hunting and killing. (Since cats and dogs don't get along.)
Yep, they're both shamanism.
Neither is _about_ shamanism. A cat is about prowling around at night and
being rather independant of the humans that accompany it. A dog is about
obedience, somehwhat less stealth, and somewhat more size and power (at
least when we talk domestic dogs and domestic cats).
> In other words, it can go a bit like this: shamanism is a 'thing', and in
> the West it's mostly about healing. Stands to reason than that if
something
> like it here in the West isn't focused on healing, it's not of the same
> thing. The 'label' is already taken, and defined by the contents and
context
> of healing and personal development.
Yes, you can play it that way. But in terms of what I was saying, shamanism
isn't a 'thing' it's a 'thingness'. When we talk about a red car and a red
kangaroo, it's meaningless to say that 'red' has already been taken by the
car, and therefore is unavailable to the kangaroo.
Therefore, 'shaman' is about as useful a label as 'craftsman' (or
'craftsperson'... does this mean we need to talk about a 'shaperson'?) -
there are qualities that are present in craftspeople generally, but to
expect a potter and a blacksmith to be able to deliver the same services is
a recipe for disappointment.
Perhaps it would be better to say, "Shamanism is most visibly manifested in
the West in a healing aspect". Maybe then I can restart that analysis of
roleplaying as shamanic activity :)
Yes, in the current state of play, it's very easy for a Westerner to get the
impression that the only shamanic craft in town is healing. But if the
healers who use shamanism in the West are respectful of the other
incarnations of shamanism (and if they're any good as healers, they will
have such respect), then you can think of healing as an 'entrance pathway'
just as children who grow up wanting to be astronauts may later find
happiness as avionics engineers.
Nick
Nick Argall
"Azathool" <azat...@straycats.lair> wrote in message
news:NWxY9.138$CR2...@nntpserver.swip.net...
>
> "Nick Argall" <nicka...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:WxxY9.3475$7y2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
with
> > awesome tools of destruction in their hands, we need to come up with a
plan
> > for getting them to stop blasting away at the earth.
>
> Hmm.. how about introdicing them to "Quakeworld", or perhaps a game of
"Serious
> Sam"? It would satisfy their thirst for blood and destruction and not hurt
anyone
> in the making.
My concern about the monster-killing games is that the cost of violence is
not realistically portrayed. Leaving aside saved games, life points,
forcefields and whatever, there is an opportunity cost associated with the
path of violence. You can spent time used violently on non-violent
activities, and in most circumstances, the non-violent path is more
profitable.
So I'd rather have them play 'Civilisation' or 'The Sims' :)
But, my objection aside, maybe there is a need for an outlet, and if there
is such a need, then computer games are a relatively safe way to go.
> > Getting these people
> > to understand nature is not the answer, IMO. Nature is harsh, has no
> > interest in fair play and does not come equipped with warning signs.
>
> Hmm.. actually I think nature comes with big signs of warnings. Colors, as
well as
> sticky things that愀 there to warn us to be careful. But it takes learning
to read
> the signs.
>
> So in a sense maybe these kids you愉e describing is like doing the same
with their
> mutilation and trying to alter their appearances. They愉e sending out a
message,
> the trouble for us others maybe to lern how to interpret these.
Very well said.
> > Expecting these children to get to know nature and like her immediately
is
> > like expecting a paranoiac blinded by pain to establish a harmonious
> > relationship with Joseph Bearwalker - a tenuous hope, at best.
>
> <LOL> Yes, "Master Estragon" can be difficult, but underneath all the
grumpyness
> he愀 just pure heart. <grin>
I accept full responsibility for being a paranoiac blinded by pain :)
> > Better, IMO, to heal the children of their desire towards
self-mutilation
> > and delusion. Only when they're not starving themselves, chopping their
> > bodies up to look different or subjecting themselves to the million
other
> > tortures we have invented for ourselves is there any benefit in oneness
with
> > nature.
>
> Well spoken. And in away it also supports my stand, which is following
Yeroune愀,
> that shamanism does not equal to healing. I said it before that I believe
in the
> expression that shamans aren愒 healers, they only set the stage, creates
an
> environment for healing to take place. I have still after 48 yrs of life
not met
> one who could heal another, but I have met a hord of people who has the
ablity to
> create the environment for it to happen.
Hmm.
I think that is the difference between a quality shamanic approach and the
favored Western approach. Your high-grade shaman excels at creating an
environement that eliminates the disease. The Western surgeon attacks the
disease with the intention of cutting it out and removing it by precise and
fine-tuned force.
Thanks very much for that, I think I'll try to me more consciously aware of
it when I try to heal people. Hmm.
I'll try to be more consciously aware that my role is not to heal people,
but to help them heal themselves. That's better.
Nick