What to look for when dealing with Scientology
Joe's Garage
destroy social values of real or imagined enemies and to
deprive them of friends and support. All Scientology needs
in this endeavor is an enemy.
Scientologists belong to a group which is constantly on the
look-out for the source of an imagined world conspiracy. One of
the locations of world conspiracy, according to L. Ron Hubbard,
is Leipzig, Germany. By the way, and this is sheer coincidence,
Leipzig is also the site of the presentation of the Alternative
Charlemagne Award to Scientology opponent Bob Minton.
One of the diverse ways in which Scientology has arguably become
the most despised religion of the last century is its use of
"Black Propaganda," as defined in detail by its founder and
sole prophet, L. Ron Hubbard in his "PR Series Nr. 18 of 21
November 1972." That is one of the secret documents which
Scientology uses the copyright law to keep off the internet,
so I am just going to use parts of it in paraphrase. Scientology
certainly does not have the copyright on black propanda; it is
used by all cults and is known in the political world, which
is where it belongs, as "negative campaigning."
So when a Scientology opponent, such as Bob Minton for the time being, is
shown appreciation for his work in supporting certain social values (see
http://alt-charlemagne-award.de), anti-critical response can be expected
to come from the general direction of cult supporters.
So far it has been insinuated/stated that:
1. The award announcer is being paid by Bob Minton for the award.
2. Bob Minton is a criminal.
3. The award is supported by person with a record.
4. The award makes no sense, i.e., has no value.
5. Since Lisa McPherson Trust members support the award,
Bob Minton is really just giving the award to himself.
6. Since some members of the award committee are members of a
group in Germany, the award committee is just a front
group for somebody else.
7. The award committee consists of anti-cultists issues worthless awards.
8. The award committee supports genocide by not supporting
Clinton in Kosovo, the recipient of the Aachen Charlemagne award.
(I nominate the writer of that one for the most creative use of illogic award).
Beginning of paraphrases from L. Ron Hubbard, founder and
sole prophet of Scientology from PR series 18:
Black Propaganda" (black = bad or derogatory,
propaganda = spread claims or ideas with emphasis) is the
expression which is used to destroy public opinion or
respect of persons, corporations or nations.
It is a practical tool of forces who are trying to destroy real
or imagined enemies or who want to obtain dominance in
an area.
This technology attempts to so disparage a reputation that
the person, corporation or nation is refused every right
through "general agreement." It is then possible to destroy
the person, corporation or nation with a smaller operation if
Black Propaganda has not already done that.
Malicious and mendacious gossip of old wives was the
earlier form of this tactic; it was so evil that, in some areas,
they were put in the public stocks (neck chains) or driven
out of the city.
In modern times, there is no keeping Black Propaganda in
check. Legal proceedings for slanderous gossip are too
expensive and too difficult to carry out, and the press law is
so misused that anybody can use this kind of campaign.
All you need is an enemy.
[...]
One is always running into people in society who do not
understand very much. That expresses itself as sort of an
evil joy about things. These people forward on slanderous
rumors very easily. There are a great number of these
people in an uneducated society. Since they are
not able to read, the greatest part of knowledge has been
denied them. And since they do not recognize very many
words, they do not understand much of what is said to
them.
But that does not just apply to the illiterate.
What they do not understand, they make up for in
imagination.
Therefore such people do not only listen to slander, but
they falsify and pervert it even more.
In this manner can a rumor that has no true basis go through
society.
[...]
No person, society or nation has a completely clean slate.
That has been reserved for saints. In their childhood people
stole a couple of apples, broke a window or two, dinged a
fender, took a joy ride with a "borrowed" vehicle or took a
few pennies or a lollipop although it did not belong to them.
[...]
All these things can make someone susceptible to attacks
on his career or regarding his past.
[... In the next segment, it almost appears as if L. Ron Hubbard
was describing himself, Scientology and Scientologists ...]
The world is full of insane people.
The fundamental characteristic of extreme insanity is
continuing attack: attacks on everything, attacks on persons
or things which contain no threat.
Serious, not minor, crimes can be found at the root of such
urges.
The attacker has an evil intention in life. He belongs to the
dead, not to the living. And his harvest is a harvest of death.
Such a person has the feeling that he cannot be secure until
all others are dead.
Their evil intentions take many forms and means of
expression. The end product is the same - Death.
When an attacker has gone too far, then he is himself
attacked. Long, bitter quarrels and wars between nations
are both the mutual exchange of violence.
If an attacker does not have the physical means to annihilate
others, and if his own goals would fail if they were to be
exposed, then the attacks are conducted covertly.
He uses verbal propaganda, the press and other channels of
communication to inject his poison. He hides himself as the
source and he has his verbal attacks appear to be logical,
real or proven.
[...]
That is Black Propaganda. It serves to humiliate real or
imagined enemies, to decrease their income to deprive them
of friends and support.
---- End of paraphrases from L. Ron Hubbard, founder and
sole prophet of Scientology from PR series 18. ----
----
Summary of selected anti-critical messages:
May 8, "Mike McKean" asked if the announcer of the award will
receive an increase in pay from Bob Minton.
May 10, "harold4567" asked what kind of activity (referring to the
award committee) would like to be supported by [Anton] Hein, whom
cults, especially Scientology, like to point out has a record in
California.
May 11, "Dirk" who said he was from "East Germany" stated that
the announcer of the award had "no clue whatsoever" and that
Leipzig was the birthplace of psychiatry. (Scientology hopes to
be viewed as a replacement for psychiatry so it publishes much
negative campaigning in that regard.)
May 12, "dtomasino" changed the subject line to "human mange" award
and asked if Bob Minton would be taken into custody in Leipzig for
crimes [which Scientology is busy manufactoring on his behalf].
May 13-23, interlude: Scientology members have to go borrow money to go
see "Battlefield Earth," which has been described some German critics as
"cult psycho-torture" ;-)
May 24, "minton_buddy" asks if it is not "kind of disingenuous not
to mention that the group giving the award has mutual members with
the Lisa McPherson Trust?" (Bob Minton founded LMT).
May 25, Cornelius Krasel worte, "I have no evidence for my allegation,
but it appears to me that the 'European-American citizens committee for
human rights and religious freedom in the USA' is as much a front group
for anti-cultists as Narconon is a front group for Scientology.
Therefore, the prize is rather worthless."
May 26, Cornelius Krasel wrote, "The supporters are mostly a.r.s.
readers, from what I can see. The "committee" seems to be an outgrowth
(I hope you prefer this to "front group") of the "Berliner Dialog" group
(of which Mr. Gandow is incidentally the leader). I concede that the
term "anti-cultists" may have been a bad choice but I couldn't think of
anything better at that moment.
May 26, Diane Richardson wrote, "What has Robert S. Minton done to
render "distinguished service on behalf of West European unification,
humanity and world peace"? and "Actually, the Karlspreis is awarded
to those who have furthered Western European unity. It is not presented
as a human rights award. While you might find Clinton's efforts to stop
aggression in Kosovo something to laugh about, not everyone shares your
contemptuous attitude towards ending genocide."
---
Texts of anti-critical messages:
---
From: "Mike McKean Sr" <mikemc...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Human Rights Award for Bob Minton
Date: 08 May 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <01bfb897$dd694760$7fea1a26@compaq-lte-5250>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Will that post get you a raise in pay from Bob?
Mike
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote in article
<Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>...
---
From: harol...@my-deja.com
Subject: Anton Hein once more
Date: 10 May 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <8fcnbe$515$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
If you check out this link
http://www.alt-charlemagne-award.de/
you will find that some people still add Anton Hein onto their lists of
supporters. What kind of activity would like to be supported by Hein,
one might ask...
---
From: dirkw...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Human Rights Award for Bob Minton
Date: 11 May 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <8ffcd5$3ig$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy> <01bfb897$dd694760$7fea1a26@compaq-lte-5250> <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>
X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x38.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.18.38.18
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 11 22:32:05 2000 GMT
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdirkwjensen
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0C-NSCP (Win95; I)
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 May 2000, Mike McKean Sr wrote:
> ...
> Minton will be presented with the Alternate Charlemagne Award in
Leipzig,
> Germany on June 3, 2000. The city of Leipzig was chosen because it
was
> the site of the first in a series of demonstrations in former East
Germany
> which presaged the fall of the Berlin wall. This is significant,
among
> other reasons, because of similarities between the "unofficial staff
> members" of the former East German Ministry of Security, and the
"field
> staff members" of Scientology's Office for Special Affairs today.
This, quite frankly, makes no sense to me. I am from East Germany
originally, and this comparison is totally stupid. You obviously have no
clue whatsoever.
The explanation about Leipzig having been chosen due to being the birth
site of modern days psychology (Wundt) is a lot more logical, especially
since half of the people connected to this award seem to have been psych
patients at one point or another or are still on psych drugs today. I
guess these puppets will feel more at home in Leipzig...
Dirk
---
From: dtom...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: More on Human Mange Award for Bob Minton or will they take him in to custody in Leipzeg?
Date: 12 May 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <8fh7ul$4ak$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy> <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
> Scientology is a totalist organization which has refined marketing, PR and
> staged events into a black art. Victims of Scientology and their
> relatives, however, will be happy to hear that one of the most active
> supporters of their cause, Bob Minton, will be receiving a human rights
> award for his efforts on their behalf.
>
> Minton will be presented with the Alternate Charlemagne Award in Leipzig,
> Germany on June 3, 2000. The city of Leipzig was chosen because it was
> the site of the first in a series of demonstrations in former East Germany
> which presaged the fall of the Berlin wall. This is significant, among
> other reasons, because of similarities between the "unofficial staff
> members" of the former East German Ministry of Security, and the "field
> staff members" of Scientology's Office for Special Affairs today.
>
> The award site is http://www.alt-charlemagne-award.de.
Africa News
May 1st 2000
"So far the second part of the investigation revealed that there were
actually no Nigerians involved in the conspiracy with the IMF and World
Bank that seems to have been colluding with Robert Minton and a few of
his front companies and individuals who manipulated the Nigerian debt
being traded on the secondary market. These two American bankers
conspired with numerous American and international banks to run billions
of dollars of Nigerian funds through this secret mechanism making
hundreds of millions of dollars in undisclosed fees and commissions
while diverting Nigerian funds into their own secret Swiss and Austrian
accounts.
Are there positive aspects of the debt buy-back scheme? De Monte says:
"They did retire a lot of debt that Nigeria was under the burden of,
however the problem is that they did not do it as per the terms of the
contracts with the banks and debt holders that were originally involved
and defrauded by the pair. They were involved in one of the most
lucrative insider trading programmes".
The IMF and the World Bank were involved too? DeMonte: "The very same
IMF and World Bank that are currently big news with various scandals
being exposed worldwide. It's the same IMF and World Bank everybody
falsely believes is this great big wonderful organisation that
financially assists Third World countries in emerging markets and
development programme. These financial institutions (IMF and World Bank)
were set up to suppress Third World countries and keep them under
control with money from the rich capitalist institutions that want to
control the human and natural resources in these developing nations".
"Minton was quoted in the newsletter, Africa Confidential (31 March
2000) that he had "tacit approval" from the IMF and the World Bank to
secretly defraud creditors and buy back Nigerian debt, both activities
are prohibited due to the terms of the contracts that clearly state
Nigeria has to treat all its debt equally so they can negotiate properly
and above board in debt restructuring matters. However, what they did
was to set up a secret mechanism so that they could go round and buy up
certain specific debt, some real, some manufactured, to launder vast
amounts of money while getting capital out of Nigeria. It was a very
sophisticated operation run through certain bankers. For example, Chase
Manhattan New York, Discount Bank and Trust Geneva, Bank Austria, Bank
Boston, Morgan & Stanley Investments, GML (Growth Management Limited
owned and operated by Robert Minton in London) to name but a few".
Fashanu interjects: "I am pleased to inform you that (Nigeria)
government has acted swiftly and purposefully to freeze looted funds
identified in our report as belonging to Mr. Robert Minton and others".
In Africa Confidential, Minton stated that Bank Austria formerly
Osterreische Landerbank in London and Vienna was a large participant in
the scheme along with the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Morgan
Guarantee in New York, and the Bank of International Settlements in
Basle, Switzerland. We are now able to provide a comprehensive report
that actually show the conspiracy between the banks and certain
individuals."
---
From: minton...@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: fl.general
Subject: Re: Scientology opponent receiving award in Germany
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:31:06 GMT
Message-ID: <8ghl7b$2ao$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
Swatron <ronsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Robert Minton, who has been championing their cause in recent years,
>will receive a human rights award for his efforts on their behalf.
>Minton will be presented with the Alternative Charlemagne Award on June
>3 in Leipzig, Germany from a German based group called the
>European-American Citizens Committee for Human Rights and Religious
>Freedom in the USA. >... and has since
> expanded to include representatives from several communities around
>the world which keep watch on Scientology's activities.
Isn't it kind of disingenuous not to mention that the group giving the
award has mutual members with the Lisa McPherson Trust? Seems to me
like Bob is giving the award to himself. But I'm his buddy, I can see
beyond the propaganda.
Bob's buddy
---
From: Cornelius Krasel <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Subject: Re: Bob Minton gets Human Rights Award in Germany
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:36:12 +0200
Message-ID: <c73jg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
> Robert Minton, a man noted for his public opposition to the Scientology
> Organization, will receive the first Alternative Charlemagne Award in the
> Federal Republic of Germany.
I have no evidence for my allegation, but it appears to me that the
"European-American citizens committee for human rights and religious
freedom in the USA" is as much a front group for anti-cultists as
Narconon is a front group for Scientology. Therefore, the prize is
rather worthless. Imagine Hubbard having received a prize from
Narconon for his discoveries on drug addiction - everybody would
start pointing out that this doesn't mean anything. The same seems
to hold true for this "prize".
--Cornelius.
---
From: Cornelius Krasel <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Subject: Re: Bob Minton gets Human Rights Award in Germany
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy> <c73jg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> <392DAFEB...@is.in-berlin.de>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:23:59 +0200
Message-ID: <fq8lg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Thomas Gandow <gan...@is.in-berlin.de> wrote:
> Cornelius Krasel schrieb:
>> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
>> > Robert Minton, a man noted for his public opposition to the Scientology
>> > Organization, will receive the first Alternative Charlemagne Award in the
>> > Federal Republic of Germany.
>>
>> I have no evidence for my allegation, but it appears to me that the
>> "European-American citizens committee for human rights and religious
>> freedom in the USA" is as much a front group for anti-cultists as
>> Narconon is a front group for Scientology.
>
> No. Please do not redefine the meaning of "front group".
> A front group is a group where some people or another organisation is
> hiding behind.
> This committee *is* the real thing. All names are disclosed.
> There is nothing *behind* the committee, but there are more and more
> *supporters*, who are also speaking out in their own names and with
> their own names or known aliases.(See the list on
> http://www.alt-charlemagne-award.de)
The supporters are mostly a.r.s. readers, from what I can see. The
"committee" seems to be an outgrowth (I hope you prefer this to
"front group") of the "Berliner Dialog" group (of which Mr. Gandow
is incidentally the leader). I concede that the term "anti-cultists"
may have been a bad choice but I couldn't think of anything better
at that moment.
Well, I don't mind. I just want to put the thing into perspective.
--Cornelius.
---
From: ref...@bway.net
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Bob Minton gets Human Rights Award in Germany
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:13:12 GMT
Message-ID: <392eaca6...@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy> <c73jg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> <392d9266...@enews.newsguy.com> <074tis04titiaqval...@4ax.com>
On Fri, 26 May 2000 16:58:34 +0200, til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman
Hausherr) wrote:
>On Thu, 25 May 2000 20:53:42 GMT, ref...@bway.net wrote in
><392d9266...@enews.newsguy.com>:
>
>>What on earth is an "Alternative Charlemagne"? Is this some sort
>>of idiomatic expression that loses all meaning when translated?
>
>It is the Alternative Charlemagne *Award*.
What has Robert S. Minton done to render "distinguished service on
behalf of West European unification, humanity and world peace"?
>Like the alternative nobel
>prize compared to the official nobel prize.
There is no "alternative nobel prize." There's an Ignobel Prize,
however. I think the "Kid Charlemagne Award" would be a
more appropriate distinction for Minton.
>There is an official
>charlemagne award which goes to Bill Clinton, for his contributions to
>human rights. (hahahaha!!!!)
Actually, the Karlspreis is awarded to those who have furthered
Western European unity. It is not presented as a human rights
award. While you might find Clinton's efforts to stop aggression in
Kosovo something to laugh about, not everyone shares your
contemptuous attitude towards ending genocide.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Cisar: http://cisar.org/rfs0100.htm
Award site: http://alt-charlemagne-award.de
Why would Gottfried Helnwein, one of the world's leading Scientologists,
lie? See http://members.tripod.com/German_Scn_News/has00.htm
Cornelius Krasel
[...]
> So when a Scientology opponent, such as Bob Minton for the time being, is
> shown appreciation for his work in supporting certain social values (see
> http://alt-charlemagne-award.de), anti-critical response can be expected
> to come from the general direction of cult supporters.
[...]
I miss the times when Rod Keller had put in his .signature the various
things that he had been called by various self-defined "anti-cult" persons
(one that I remember was "OSA patsy"). Maybe it is indeed time to leave
a.r.s. for good - after all, it is unfortunate to see that one may have
left Scientology but is still stuck in the "us-versus-them" mindset.
--Cornelius ("cult supporter" according to Joe Cisar).
--
/* Cornelius Krasel, U Wuerzburg, Dept. of Pharmacology, Versbacher Str. 9 */
/* D-97078 Wuerzburg, Germany email: pha...@rzbox.uni-wuerzburg.de SP4 */
/* "Science is the game we play with God to find out what His rules are." */
Joe's Garage
> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > So when a Scientology opponent, such as Bob Minton for the time being, is
> > shown appreciation for his work in supporting certain social values (see
> > http://alt-charlemagne-award.de), anti-critical response can be expected
> > to come from the general direction of cult supporters.
>
> [...]
>
> I miss the times when Rod Keller had put in his .signature the various
> things that he had been called by various self-defined "anti-cult" persons
> (one that I remember was "OSA patsy"). Maybe it is indeed time to leave
> a.r.s. for good - after all, it is unfortunate to see that one may have
> left Scientology but is still stuck in the "us-versus-them" mindset.
There are other destructive cults in this world besides Scientology. VPM
(a German group that targets universities) and Moonies (also targets
universities, but more active in the US) are among them. One of the
primary characteristics of brainwashing cults like Scientology, Moonies
and VPM is that their members use irrational arguments to deny
brainwashing. And one of the primary characteristics of destructive
cults, like Scientology Moonies and VPM, is their members use personal
disparagement as a primary resource in case of a difference of opinion. It
is possible that Scientology's last staunch supporters on this news group
are not Scientologists at all.
>
> --Cornelius ("cult supporter" according to Joe Cisar).
The comparison of Bob Minton to a despised figure like L. Ron Hubbard in
the attached post authored by Cornelius Krasel was certainly as glib as
Mike Rinder's comparison of Bob Minton to Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City
bomber) on NBC's Dateline of June 16, 1998. In that respect Cornelius,
who may be a wonderful person in other respects, not only supports
Scientology's goal of incriminating Bob Minton through insinuations, but
uses the same method as Scientolgy does in doing so.
Joe Cisar: http://cisar.org/rfs0100.htm
Award site: http://alt-charlemagne-award.de
Why would Gottfried Helnwein, one of the world's leading Scientologists,
lie? See http://members.tripod.com/German_Scn_News/has00.htm
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:36:12 +0200
From: Cornelius Krasel <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Bob Minton gets Human Rights Award in Germany
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
> Robert Minton, a man noted for his public opposition to the Scientology
> Organization, will receive the first Alternative Charlemagne Award in the
> Federal Republic of Germany.
I have no evidence for my allegation, but it appears to me that the
"European-American citizens committee for human rights and religious
freedom in the USA" is as much a front group for anti-cultists as
Narconon is a front group for Scientology. Therefore, the prize is
rather worthless. Imagine Hubbard having received a prize from
Narconon for his discoveries on drug addiction - everybody would
start pointing out that this doesn't mean anything. The same seems
to hold true for this "prize".
--Cornelius.
--
Ted Mayett
<kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
>I miss the times when Rod Keller had put in his .signature the various
>things that he had been called by various self-defined "anti-cult" persons
>(one that I remember was "OSA patsy"). Maybe it is indeed time to leave
>a.r.s. for good - after all, it is unfortunate to see that one may have
>left Scientology but is still stuck in the "us-versus-them" mindset.
>
>--Cornelius ("cult supporter" according to Joe Cisar).
Well please leave the web page up.
How the hell do you live without a TV? Nobody I know here is without
a television. I haven't turned mine on for about two weeks now, but I
do have one. Amazing that you live without one.
ptsc
>I have no evidence for my allegation, but it appears to me that the
>"European-American citizens committee for human rights and religious
> freedom in the USA" is as much a front group for anti-cultists as
>Narconon is a front group for Scientology. Therefore, the prize is
>rather worthless. Imagine Hubbard having received a prize from
>Narconon for his discoveries on drug addiction - everybody would
>start pointing out that this doesn't mean anything. The same seems
>to hold true for this "prize".
Just my two cents, I don't think Cornelius is being an "anti-anti-cultist"
here. My specific gripe isn't that he mentioned that this citizens
committee is mostly anti-cult activists, which is a valid point.
My gripe is comparing it to Narconon giving an award to Hubbard.
Now if Minton had founded this group, funded it, and then ORDERED
it to give him a prize, as Hubbard did, this comparison would be
fair.
But nothing of the sort has occurred. A group which agrees with
him has given him an award. This makes it somewhat less
prestigious than it would be if a "general purpose" group had
given him an award but does not make it a "manufactured"
award like those Hubbard got from his own front groups.
Also "front group" means a group created by a group hiding
its identity and affiliations in order to appear to be an independent
group. I don't think the comparison is fair.
ptsc
Cornelius Krasel
> My gripe is comparing it to Narconon giving an award to Hubbard.
> Now if Minton had founded this group, funded it, and then ORDERED
> it to give him a prize, as Hubbard did, this comparison would be
> fair.
I have not seen any evidence that Narconon was founded by Hubbard.
Nor is there any evidence that Narconon is funded by Scientology -
unfortunately, Narconon seems to be quite profitable by itself.
These claims are based on
http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~cowen/narconon/narconon.html
I don't know whether Narconon has indeed awarded a prize for Hubbard.
If it has done so, this might still have happened without Hubbard
ordering it.
The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
invalid either.
What I object to, however, is not criticism of my posting. After all,
this is a discussion group. What I object to is attaching a label (in
this case "cult supporter") to the poster. This is by no means different
from the tactics of Scientologists described in HCOB 27 Sep 66
"The anti-social personality. The anti-scientologist". Hubbard writes:
%begin quote
The anti-social personality has the following attributes:
1. He or she speaks only in very broad generalities.
[...]
2. Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks,
invalidation and general suppression.
[...]
3. The anti-social personality alters, to worsen, communication when he
or she relays a message or news.
[...]
6. The anti-social personality habitually selects the wrong target.
[...]
7. The anti-social cannot finish a cycle of action.
[...]
8. Many anti-social persons will freely confess to the most alarming
crimes when forced to do so, but will have no faintest sense of
responsibility for them.
[...]
9. The anti-social personality supports only destructive groups and
rages against and attacks any constructive or betterment group.
%end quote
If somebody has to step down to this level, I can only pity him.
Rod Keller
: Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
: > So when a Scientology opponent, such as Bob Minton for the time being, is
: > shown appreciation for his work in supporting certain social values (see
: > http://alt-charlemagne-award.de), anti-critical response can be expected
: > to come from the general direction of cult supporters.
: I miss the times when Rod Keller had put in his .signature the various
: things that he had been called by various self-defined "anti-cult" persons
: (one that I remember was "OSA patsy"). Maybe it is indeed time to leave
: a.r.s. for good - after all, it is unfortunate to see that one may have
: left Scientology but is still stuck in the "us-versus-them" mindset.
I still have the sig, but delete it when posting news articles. I think
the Alternate Charlemagne Award is a good attempt to get equal time when
Clinton gets his award. I don't think the negative impact the U.S.
position on Scientology has in Europe is really appreciated in the U.S.
This is a way to publicize that. And it's encouraging to see European and
American critics getting together to talk, exchange information and
provide mutual support. No, it's not an established organization that has
been giving this award for years and years. But I think they have found a
terrific first recipient.
--
Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece / Killer Rod
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
Bigot of Mystery / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully
Dave Bird
<kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
>The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
>invalid either.
That's roughly my feeling too.
>
>What I object to, however, is not criticism of my posting. After all,
>this is a discussion group. What I object to is attaching a label (in
>this case "cult supporter") to the poster.
I suppose it is valid to be somewhat underwhelmed when a body
presents itself as a group of general radicals, who looked round
all the radical causes, and felt the person most deserving of an
ward was a campaigner against criminal cults... then I find out
it is a specifically anti-cult body anyway. Why not be
straightforward and call it "the Voltaire award, for exposing
hypocrites who rob and deceive in the name of religion" ?
It is a worthwhile minor point, I suppose.
Whether it was made by some arse who jumps on any nit-picking point
to attack those who expose criminal cults, I wouldn't know without
flicking back to see who the author was.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
www.xemu.demon.co.uk 2B0D 5195 337B A3E6 DDAC BD38 7F2F FD8E 7391 F44F
Joe's Garage
> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> >invalid either.
>
> That's roughly my feeling too.
If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
so broad as to be meaningless.
Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
If somebody wants to rain on Scientology's enemy nbr. one's parade, they
should take extra caution when doing the cult's dirty work for them.
Chris Owen
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes
>On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
>
>> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
>> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
>> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
>> >invalid either.
>>
>> That's roughly my feeling too.
>
>If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
>he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
>Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
>so broad as to be meaningless.
>
>Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
>anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
I wouldn't call it a "front group". It does, however, rather smack of
anti-cultists handing out awards to each other; fair enough, but in that
case associating it with the Charlemagne Prize is really pretentious.
--
| Chris Owen - chr...@OISPAMNOlutefisk.demon.co.uk |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| THE TRUTH ABOUT L. RON HUBBARD AND THE UNITED STATES NAVY |
| http://www.ronthewarhero.org |
Thomas Gandow
Chris Owen schrieb:
>
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes
> >On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
> >
> >> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
> >> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
> >> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> >> >invalid either.
> >>
> >> That's roughly my feeling too.
> >
> >If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
> >he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
> >Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
> >so broad as to be meaningless.
> >
> >Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
> >anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
>
> I wouldn't call it a "front group". It does, however, rather smack of
> anti-cultists handing out awards to each other; fair enough, but in that
> case associating it with the Charlemagne Prize is really pretentious.
Pretentious?
The human rights award of our committee (Alternative Charlemagne Award
2000) is not associated to the "Aachen Charlemagne Prize" in general,
but has to do with the prizewinner 2000: Bill Clinton, a well known
Scientology Helper. Should or could he therefore really be praised as a
role model for European Unity?
He is certainly not, and Bob Minton as a courageous citizen, who fights
i.a. for freedom of information, certainly is.
TG
Dave Bird
Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes:
>On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
>
>> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
>> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
>> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
>> >invalid either.
>>
>> That's roughly my feeling too.
>
>If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
>he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
>Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
>so broad as to be meaningless.
There is some (small) validity in criticising the award as
a bit too good to be true. It would be nice if a group of
political radicals got together and decided that the most
worthwhile radical activity of all had been combating this
small group of pseudo-religious criminals: which is what
an alternative to the Charlemagne Award sounds like.
Instead, we have what is more like the "Voltaire Award
for combating pseudo-religious criminals", which went to
somebody whose work is combating pseudo-religious criminals.
Well, no surprise there then.........
Blue Xenu
>
>Cornelius Krasel (kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de) wrote:
>: Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
>: > So when a Scientology opponent, such as Bob Minton for the time being, is
>: > shown appreciation for his work in supporting certain social values (see
>: > http://alt-charlemagne-award.de), anti-critical response can be expected
>: > to come from the general direction of cult supporters.
>: I miss the times when Rod Keller had put in his .signature the various
>: things that he had been called by various self-defined "anti-cult" persons
>: (one that I remember was "OSA patsy"). Maybe it is indeed time to leave
>: a.r.s. for good - after all, it is unfortunate to see that one may have
>: left Scientology but is still stuck in the "us-versus-them" mindset.
>
>I still have the sig, but delete it when posting news articles. I think
>the Alternate Charlemagne Award is a good attempt to get equal time when
>Clinton gets his award. I don't think the negative impact the U.S.
>position on Scientology has in Europe is really appreciated in the U.S.
>This is a way to publicize that. And it's encouraging to see European and
>American critics getting together to talk, exchange information and
>provide mutual support. No, it's not an established organization that has
>been giving this award for years and years. But I think they have found a
>terrific first recipient.
>
Okay Rod, but I just don't like the way he denigrates women on IRC.
>--
>Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
>Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece / Killer Rod
>The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
>Bigot of Mystery / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully
"The most exhausting thing in life is being insincere." --Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Ted Mayett
> No, it's not an established organization that has
>been giving this award for years and years. But I think they have found a
>terrific first recipient.
Well I don't think Bob Minton is a good first recipient at all.
Personally, I'd never pick anyone who parades around with a swastika
thinking it is a clever thing to do. I'd cross off all candidates
that go for dripping blood displays also.
(and yes Mr. Ward, I know, freedom of speech and all that stuff)
Since this is not an established organization, since this is the first
award, it seems the qualifications are set for future awards. At any
rate, the lack of qualifications needed are a matter of record.
Picket with a swastika if you want, this committee could care less.
It just don't mean nothing at all to them, they simply don't care one
way or the other. And then perhaps to picket with a swastika is to
strike a blow for religious freedom around the world. Or something
like that.
If Bob Minton, having paraded with that swastika can get an award from
this committee, then the award is useless. I could go with Honorable
Mention, even sign my name to it. But that swastika should eliminate
any humanitarian type award.
Of course if you get together a group who thinks displaying a swastika
is a clever thing to do, you would expect that group to give each
other awards. This committee seems like such a group to me.
Now my Pickets-CD has a picture of Bob Minton with one of his swastika
picket signs. The next version I burn will have all this Charmane(or
whatever it is called) information on it. History will study this
era, this ARS/Scientology scenario. We will all be dead, nobody
reading it will have anything to gain. How do you think they will
view it all?
A swastika bearer wins some pretentiously named human rights award.
Quite amazing when you really think of it.
Nope. Honorable Mention would have been proper.
Rod Keller
: On 28 May 2000 15:43:00 GMT, rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote:
: > No, it's not an established organization that has
: >been giving this award for years and years. But I think they have found a
: >terrific first recipient.
: thinking it is a clever thing to do. I'd cross off all candidates
: that go for dripping blood displays also.
Personally, you're not giving the award. If you feel so moved, please
create the Alternate Ted Award.
Rod Keller
: Okay Rod, but I just don't like the way he denigrates women on IRC.
As they would say in a deposition, "assumes facts not in evidence." I
don't think you know what you're talking about.
Beverly Rice
> Ted Mayett (ted-m...@msn.com) wrote:
> : Personally, I'd never pick anyone who parades around with a swastika
> : thinking it is a clever thing to do. I'd cross off all candidates
> : that go for dripping blood displays also.
>
> Personally, you're not giving the award. If you feel so moved, please
> create the Alternate Ted Award.
Well, Ted is simply stating what his personal feelings are.
I think it is a very good thing for critics to be able to
criticize other critics.
This is an action you don't see within the narrow-minded
one-way thought processes of Hubbardites, who will, despite
their honey coated words, still openly support the organization
vocally and monetarily and with every other bit of support
they have.
I think it is good that there are some active, vocal critics
that don't want to sign the award.
I have.
Ted hasn't.
That is fine.
I also spoke out about the use of the swastika that Bob was
using. I felt it was counter productive. But I also had
spoken with Bob, know that he had read a book (sorry, I can't
remember the name) about how the Nazi's took power, and totally
understand his reasoning for doing so.
But I do feel that I was right in stating it was counter
productive to the desired end result, as Ted's post demonstrates.
Let's put it down to what will hopefully be a learning
experience in how to truly accomplish what it is one wants
to accomplish and avoiding pitfalls and stumbling blocks.
ARC,
Beverly
Diane Richardson
<gan...@is.in-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>
>Chris Owen schrieb:
>>
>> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
>> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes
>> >On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
>> >> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
>> >> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
>> >> >invalid either.
>> >>
>> >> That's roughly my feeling too.
>> >
>> >If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
>> >he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
>> >Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
>> >so broad as to be meaningless.
>> >
>> >Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
>> >anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
>>
>> I wouldn't call it a "front group". It does, however, rather smack of
>> anti-cultists handing out awards to each other; fair enough, but in that
>> case associating it with the Charlemagne Prize is really pretentious.
>
>Pretentious?
>The human rights award of our committee (Alternative Charlemagne Award
>2000) is not associated to the "Aachen Charlemagne Prize" in general,
>but has to do with the prizewinner 2000: Bill Clinton, a well known
>Scientology Helper. Should or could he therefore really be praised as a
>role model for European Unity?
>He is certainly not, and Bob Minton as a courageous citizen, who fights
>i.a. for freedom of information, certainly is.
Sorry, Thomas, but your penchant for shooting yourself in the foot
surpasses the OSA Footbullet Squad itself.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Xenu
>
>Sorry, Thomas, but your penchant for shooting yourself in the foot
>surpasses the OSA Footbullet Squad itself.
>
>Diane Richardson
And you fullashit
Mike O'Connor
<ted-m...@msn.com> wrote:
[...]
>A swastika bearer wins some pretentiously named human rights award.
[...]
So, you mentioned the swastika eight times. It got your attention. It
must be a very, very powerful symbol.
Now we know an Image Mr. Minton used. But is he saying?
He is not saying that Nazis are good, that he agrees with Nazis, with
Hitler, that their ideas were right, or anything like that.
He is saying that the cult of Scientology is comparable to Nazis, that
the organization of the Nazis is comparable to the organization of the
cult. That is what he is saying.
It is the message, not the symbol, that is important. The symbol sure
got your attention. It also triggered a reflex, I think. But it is there
to convey a message, and that message is not pro-Nazi. It is the
opposite of that. It is comparing the cult organization to perhaps the
worst thing he can think of, the Nazi organization.
And of course, that one sign isn't the only medium he has used to convey
his messages, and the Nazi comparison isn't his only message.
I don't think that sign was productive. It triggers a reflex that
obscures the message he is trying to convey. I think that conveying
messages with impact, and using controversy is useful. But the symbol he
used in that sign is blinding. Its glare washes out the important part
of the sign.
--
SCIENTOLOGY IS SECRETLY A UFO CULT
ASK THEM ABOUT XENU
Mike O'Connor <mi...@leptonicsystems.com>
<http://www.leptonicsystems.com>
Joe's Garage
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes
> >On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
> >
> >> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
> >> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
> >> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> >> >invalid either.
> >>
> >> That's roughly my feeling too.
> >
> >If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
> >he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
> >Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
> >so broad as to be meaningless.
> >
> >Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
> >anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
>
> I wouldn't call it a "front group". It does, however, rather smack of
> anti-cultists handing out awards to each other; fair enough, but in that
> case associating it with the Charlemagne Prize is really pretentious.
Your use of "alternative" as being associative in quality may be
incorrect. The word serves to differentiate, possibly even to strongly
differentiate.
Joe's Garage
> ptsc <pt...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > My gripe is comparing it to Narconon giving an award to Hubbard.
> > Now if Minton had founded this group, funded it, and then ORDERED
> > it to give him a prize, as Hubbard did, this comparison would be
> > fair.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that Narconon was founded by Hubbard.
> Nor is there any evidence that Narconon is funded by Scientology -
> unfortunately, Narconon seems to be quite profitable by itself.
> These claims are based on
> http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~cowen/narconon/narconon.html
>
> I don't know whether Narconon has indeed awarded a prize for Hubbard.
> If it has done so, this might still have happened without Hubbard
> ordering it.
>
> The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> invalid either.
>
> What I object to, however, is not criticism of my posting. After all,
> this is a discussion group. What I object to is attaching a label (in
After you wipe away the tears, remember that I will be happy to recommend
that your name be added to the list of award supporters if you so desire.
That is because I value your personal opinion, although I may not
necessarily agree with the way you present yourself nor with whomever else
you may side.
Joe's Garage
> Rod Keller wrote:
> > Ted Mayett (ted-m...@msn.com) wrote:
>
> > : Personally, I'd never pick anyone who parades around with a swastika
> > : thinking it is a clever thing to do. I'd cross off all candidates
> > : that go for dripping blood displays also.
> >
> > Personally, you're not giving the award. If you feel so moved, please
> > create the Alternate Ted Award.
>
> Well, Ted is simply stating what his personal feelings are.
>
> I think it is a very good thing for critics to be able to
> criticize other critics.
If every person I spoke with about the award blindly supported it, I would
have already quit in disgust. I also agree with Ted to a degree, but
think he needs to broaden his qualifications and possibly even recommend
some examples of people who may fill them.
Joe's Garage
> In article<Pine.LNX.3.96.10005...@darkstar.zippy>,
> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> writes:
> >On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
> >
> >> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
> >> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
> >> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> >> >invalid either.
> >>
> >> That's roughly my feeling too.
> >
> >If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
> >he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
> >Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
> >so broad as to be meaningless.
>
> There is some (small) validity in criticising the award as
> a bit too good to be true. It would be nice if a group of
> political radicals got together and decided that the most
> worthwhile radical activity of all had been combating this
> small group of pseudo-religious criminals: which is what
> an alternative to the Charlemagne Award sounds like.
I agree with that fact that there is (small) validity which can be
derived. There is also a small validity in being aerial bombed in that it
has a tendency to bring survivors on the ground closer together. But that
was not the primary point (in word or in result) of the post and
its follow-ups.
Equating values of freedom with values of Scientology is a function of
OSA. In other words, if you argued convincingly enough that Scientology's
LRH was no different from democracy's Bob Minton, then there would not be
that pressing a need for OSA.
Joe Cisar: http://cisar.org/rfs0100.htm
Award site: http://alt-charlemagne-award.de
Why would Gottfried Helnwein, one of the world's leading Scientologists,
lie? See http://members.tripod.com/German_Scn_News/has00.htm
>
>
Cornelius Krasel
>> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
>> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
>> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
>> >invalid either.
>>
>> That's roughly my feeling too.
>
> If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
> he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
> Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
> so broad as to be meaningless.
You have asserted repeatedly that I compared Minton to Hubbard. This
is wrong. I think that giving the award to Minton is comparable to
Scientologists handing out awards to each other (i.e. the award is
rather meaningless), and the irrelevance of the award is being hidden
behind giving it a bombastic name.
> Not to mention the first two members listed of what Cornelius called an
> anti-cult "front group" are Gerry Armstrong and Ursula Caberta.
Who cares? This reasoning is comparable with the claim that Scientology
must be good because it is supported by John Travolta or Tom Cruise.
Celebrity involvement should never replace your own critical thinking
skills.
Ted Mayett
wrote:
> I also agree with Ted to a degree, but
>think he needs to broaden his qualifications and possibly even recommend
>some examples of people who may fill them.
>
>Award site: http://alt-charlemagne-award.de
No. No suggestions for people to receive this award.
Ted Mayett
I debated long and hard and decided not to post if for you, but I'll
keep it, perhaps one day it should go up here. I get the impression
you are an ex-member, and just another case of
'the best ones seem to leave'.
Later.
Joe's Garage
I 100% support the idea that the criteria of the award need to be smoothed
out, but I would want to modify "carrying a swastika on a picket sign"
from being an absolute disqualification to a disqualifying factor. In
other words, if we had a choice of two individuals, one of whom displayed
a swastika on a picket sign and one who did not, then the one who did not
carry the swastika would get it.
Here is the reason I very much support this idea: EVERYBODY thinks we
should be warned about the dangers of cults. But almost HALF of us think
the media bungle the job by sensationalizing the matter too much
(according to me, anyway). That means the primary objective would be
accurately informing the public about how cults operate, and a secondary
objective would be not to sensationalize the matter, if possible.
In the analogy to a car show, you want the car with the best performance,
but with the least amount of polluting emissions.
Joe's Garage
> Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, 28 May 2000, Dave Bird wrote:
> >> In article<i3lqg8...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Cornelius Krasel
> >> <kra...@wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
> >> >The comparison might not be fair, but I think it is not entirely
> >> >invalid either.
> >>
> >> That's roughly my feeling too.
> >
> > If you're going to say that Minton is comparable to Hubbard because
> > he is receiving an award from his own side, they you also have to say that
> > Churchill is comparable to Hitler. The comparison may be valid, but it is
> > so broad as to be meaningless.
>
> You have asserted repeatedly that I compared Minton to Hubbard. This
> is wrong.
I agree that it is wrong to compare Minton to Hubbard, since that is like
comparing apples to maggots. I have repeatedly asserted that you compared
Minton to Hubbard because you compared Minton to Hubbard, perhaps not
directly, but indirectly. In other words you have to argue different
degrees of comparison, then say that your comparison doesn't count. Best
of luck to you.
Ted Mayett
wrote:
>I 100% support the idea that the criteria of the award need to be smoothed
>out, but I would want to modify "carrying a swastika on a picket sign"
>from being an absolute disqualification to a disqualifying factor.
It is already thusly modified.
Cornelius Krasel
>> You have asserted repeatedly that I compared Minton to Hubbard. This
>> is wrong.
>
> I agree that it is wrong to compare Minton to Hubbard, since that is like
> comparing apples to maggots.
What's next? :-)
> I have repeatedly asserted that you compared Minton to Hubbard because you
> compared Minton to Hubbard,
No, I didn't. But I guess that criticism of one of your "idols" does not
fit into your view of the world. Welcome to the killfile; I can still
read your more valuable contributions in ARS Week In Review.
Joe's Garage
> On Tue, 30 May 2000 04:54:59 -0400, Joe's Garage <swa...@xenu.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I 100% support the idea that the criteria of the award need to be smoothed
> >out, but I would want to modify "carrying a swastika on a picket sign"
> >from being an absolute disqualification to a disqualifying factor.
>
> It is already thusly modified.
My three nominations for the first prestigious Ted Award are the
following people for the reason listed:
Andreas Heldal-Lund for his international success with Operation Clambake,
Jeff Jacobsen for his astute observation and action in uncovering
the Lisa McPherson case,
and Dennis Erlich for providing people on a.r.s. with a home away from
home for so many years.
Some suggested rules are the person should have a choice in whether s/he
accepts the nomination or not, since it may involve personal principle.
The same as some people don't like dogs or cats, so prefer not to have
dogs or cats, some people don't like awards, and would prefer not to
receive an award. One of the initial steps, though, would be to come up
with a list of nominees so they could accept/reject their nominations.
Rejection of nomination should not be allowed in advance; the person has
to be offered before s/he can reject or accept.
Also, people who make nominations should be kept separate from the actual
selection process. That means since I gave nominees, I would not be able
to vote on them.
Ted Mayett
wrote:
>
>My three nominations for the first prestigious Ted Award are the
>following people for the reason listed:
>
You are rather bold here Joe, or do you think you are being cute.
Do me a favor, show me how bad you are, impress me.
On the following wesite:
>Award site: http://alt-charlemagne-award.de
Add this post by Bob Minton:
(you won't of course, you will justify it)
-------------------------------------------------
========
Subject: Weinberg and Hertzberg: Legal Whores for Scientology
From: b...@minton.org
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:36:49 -0500
Message-ID: <b8a93sgdg3bhjt97p...@4ax.com>
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Weinberg and Hertzberg just finished 2 days of deposing my dear friend
Jesse Prince, and I want to say something about these legal whores who
sleep with Scientology.
If Sandy Weinberg and Mike Hertzberg were in Germany in 1941, you can
be certain they would have been either Judenrat officials passing out
Yellow Star badges, loading Jews on the trains, handing over the
assets they confiscated from Jews to the Germans in order to save
their own asses; or, they would have been bosses at the death camps
running, among other things, the fucking gas chambers. These pathetic
excuses for human beings, Weinberg and Hertzberg, don't have to worry
about saving their asses in 1999 America because they are only worried
about their $600 per hour from the completely Nazi regime of
Scientology. It is no wonder that history repeats because
there will always be whores like Weinberg and Hertzberg who will sell
their souls to evil.
Like the trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Scientologists face the
question of guilt or innocence; and, the act of meting out justice to
both the defendant and the victim, Lisa McPherson, are the only things
really at stake in this trial---despite the cabal of Weinberg,
Hertzberg and Scientology to ignore the horrible death that Lisa
McPherson suffered at the hands of her Nazi-like captors. All of them
are a curse on humanity for their lack of caring about anything but
their pocketbooks. I hope to God that truth prevails in this case and
that Weinberg and Hertzberg slither back under the rocks from which
Scientology found these slimy creatures.
Bob Minton
Because e-mail and usenet postings can be altered electronically, the
integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed unless it has a
valid PGP signature.
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Keith Henson
> destroy social values of real or imagined enemies and to
> deprive them of friends and support. All Scientology needs
> in this endeavor is an enemy.
> Scientologists belong to a group which is constantly on the
> look-out for the source of an imagined world conspiracy. One of
> the locations of world conspiracy, according to L. Ron Hubbard,
> is Leipzig, Germany. By the way, and this is sheer coincidence,
Sure it is! :-)
> Leipzig is also the site of the presentation of the Alternative
> Charlemagne Award to Scientology opponent Bob Minton.
Keith henson